S04.E07: Fever Pitch

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Liza discovers an exciting new author, whose pitch takes an unexpected turn; Kelsey avoids the wrath of Charles, and escapes upstate with Josh and Lauren.

[Armchair Critic]

Damn, so close with Charles and then foiled again! But he doesn't regret it. :)

I didn't see that coming that the author was Charles' wife.

I know they need a way to keep Josh in the storyline, but I would rather not have him and Kelsey together romantically.

[HunterHunted]

3 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

Damn, so close with Charles and then foiled again! But he doesn't regret it. :)

I didn't see that coming that the author was Charles' wife.

I know they need a way to keep Josh in the storyline, but I would rather not have him and Kelsey together romantically.

I'd be fine with Josh and Kelsey sometime waaaaaaaaaaaaay down the line. Kelsey has a type and Josh isn't that type. Right now I'd like him to become authentically friends with Maggie, Kelsey, and Lauren. Him giving Maggie a heads up about Amy Montana's art was a step in the right direction. 

How much of a massive asshole is Pauline? At some point, her name and this book were going to be mentioned to Charles. She couldn't give the man a heads up?

I'm actually glad that Charles and Liza didn't get a chance to have sex. They are attracted to each other. They are intellectually compatible. If they are OTP or HEA, a late night office hookup is going have Charles going home to obsess over all of the reasons he shouldn't be with Liza. And as much as Liza likes his kids, Liza is very happy to be past that stage of her life. Even as a step-mom, she'll have 10 more years parenting. Considering she let being a wife and mother put her career ambitions on the back burner, I can see her being reluctant to put herself in a situation where that might happen again. She's feeling her career right now and she's been successful. Liza and Charles will happen when they are both in a good balanced place. The two of them need to be ready and full all in when they get together.

I wouldn't be averse to Liza developing a deeper friendship with Jay that turns romantic, but ultimately doesn't work and they realize that they're better as friends. Liza needs practice dating as a 40 something who is dating another 40 something. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by HunterHunted

[voiceover]

My kingdom for a Liza/Charles chat room, which would've exploded in the first few minutes of tonight's ep.

But so much stupid shit happened.  I want to know more about the LL Moore ship-jumping -- for reals, a cornerstone author signs with a new house as quickly as that?  If that's an accurate description, I need more exposition. Stupid.

The penis interior was another SATC-imitation.  Stupid.

I have lost all interest in Lauren.  Shocking to shock.  Who gives a shit?  Stupid.

Close your office door & leave the blinds open?  Stupid.

Here's what I liked: Charles & Liza doing it, for dreams & for reals.  Worth the wait.  More please.

[Snarklepuss]

This was my favorite episode of this show yet.  Life imitates the art of the penis house and also Liza's dreams.  What I loved is that Charles didn't regret it at all.  That is so disarmingly sexy I have no words.  I don't know what it is about him, but Peter Hermann has it dowwwwnnn.....I know some people think Charles is boring, but he's sexy and IMO sexy is never boring.  Plus now that he and Liza have had a little more physical interaction I love their chemistry.  It's HOT.  Definitely worth the wait and yes, more please.  Especially up against the bookcases, you know how that gets us bookophiles excited.  It's the juxtaposition of the stuffy and cerebral with the wild abandon of lust.  Gets us every time.

Yeah, penis house was dumb and another SATC type gimmick, but I felt like it served a purpose in the episode for the audience, that our minds are brought straight into the gutter.  As if they weren't there already, LOL.

So now Charles' ex is going to be a possible threat to Liza getting it on with him?  Of course, the show couldn't make things THAT easy for them.  Of course Charles' exterior hides his past but now we'll find out he's not the boy scout he seems to be on the surface, and definitely NOT boring.  LOVE IT.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Snarklepuss

[ElectricBoogaloo]

If Pauline wants to write a book about her life, that's fine. It's her experience and her story to tell. Even if the divorce was contentious, you'd think that she would at least use a pseudonym to protect her kids' privacy.

But my biggest issue is that she made it a point to say that (1) she knew about Millennial (2) she saw Liza on EW's 29 under 29 list (3) she knows Millennial skews younger so she asked if her book would be a better fit with Empirical.

In other words, she is being a sneaky bitch trying to get attention from Charles in this passive aggressive roundabout way. She KNEW that by giving her manuscript to anyone at Millennial, it was just a matter of time before Charles saw it. Pathetic and mean. It's too bad because Liza clearly liked her and I thought they might become friends.

I know people complain that Sutton doesn't look young enough to pretend to be the age she claims she is at work, but seeing her right across from Pauline, I can see why people believe her when she says that she's in her late 20s because she does look younger than other women in their 40s. Pauline definitely looked older than Liza even though they're probably around the same age on the show (in real life, Jennifer Westfeldt is five years older than Sutton Foster, one year older than Miriam Shor, and six years younger than Debi Mazar). While I don't think Sutton's face alone looks 25, I can see how dressing younger helps and I guess people just assume she didn't wear sunscreen religiously which would explain why her face looks less youthful than Lauren's or Kelsey's.

On a shallow note, I cracked up at the LL Moore poster in the hallway outside of Charles' office.

I do not like Josh and Kelsey even thinking about hooking up. I'm glad Kelsey put a stop to it but it shouldn't have gotten that far in the first place. This isn't the Peach Pit, kids!

At first when Josh threw away Lauren's stupid pot, I was okay with it but then I thought uh should you really be dumping that in the lake? And then OF COURSE he had to be a hipster shithead and talk about how you can only really do ayahuasca in Peru. Ugh, go call Montana so you can be hipster shitheads together! If you're going to have that attitude then you can only drink champagne when you're in France. Of course on the flip side, Lauren was also being a hipster shithead for thinking that a $40 online shamanic class was all she needed in order to make her own ayahuasca.

Edited August 10, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[HunterHunted]

7 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

If Pauline wants to write a book about her life, that's fine. It's her experience and her story to tell. Even if the divorce was contentious, you'd think that she would at least use a pseudonym to protect her kids' privacy.

But my biggest issue is that she made it a point to say that (1) she knew about Millennial (2) she saw Liza on EW's 29 under 29 list (3) she knows Millennial skews younger so she asked if her book would be a better fit with Empirical.

In other words, she is being a sneaky bitch trying to get attention from Charles in this passive aggressive roundabout way. She KNEW that by giving her manuscript to anyone at Millennial, it was just a matter of time before Charles saw it. Pathetic and mean. It's too bad because Liza clearly liked her and I thought they might become friends.

This is exactly the problem that I had with Pauline. She's free to write the book. She's free to publish the book. However, she absolutely owed Charles a conversation before she started shopping for a publisher. She didn't even use a pseudonym so the same thing that's happening at Empirical next week would be happening at some other publisher. For God's sake, was she just going to humiliate him in front of the entire publishing industry and New York? It's such a rotten way to treat people. What the fuck did Charles do to warrant this kind of treatment?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I think that even if her book was a loving glowing portrait of perfection of Charles, she still owed him even the briefest of conversations before she started shopping her manuscript around, even if only to inform him what she was doing so that he wasn't blindsided.

[luna1122]

See, I was thinking that Jennifer Westfeldt and Sutton looked pretty much exactly of the same age, and that it was crazy that more people didn't see that Liza is clearly not in her 20s. Pauline definitely looks lots younger than Diana. I really like Westfeldt, she's a good, interesting actor, and attractive, so I hope she's on for a bit. That said...yeah, what kind of agenda does Pauline have? Is she trying to stick it to Charles, or to get back together with him? That was some shady shit.

I loved how the dream making out was hotter and sexier than the real making out, which was realistically a little awkward and bumpy. I think Peter Hermann is gorgeous, and sexy, but Charles often just seems stodgy and a little dull, tho in the DREAM ,he was super hot. I also think Charles, tho he doesn't know it, senses that Liza not in her 20s. I don't mean that he actually has that thought process, he actually does believe she's what she says is, but he feels her maturity and life experience in some way, and connects to her because of it, NOT because he thinks she's a pretty 20 something.

Josh and Kelsey is not a good idea, and I was glad she put a stop to it, but that's clearly not the end of it, unfortunately. I thought Josh tossing the faux ayahuasca in the lake was stupid too, and then he jumped right in, so I thought he was gonna go all vision quest and pukey, but guess not.

[Snarklepuss]

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

At first when Josh threw away Lauren's stupid pot, I was okay with it but then I thought uh should you really be dumping that in the lake?

Actually, based on what they said in the episode, I think that was supposed to be the Hudson River.  It looked like it was, probably somewhere in Westchester County near Irvington or Tarrytown, but south of the Tappan Zee bridge because when they focused on them toward the south, there was no bridge, unless they were that far up the line.  Judging from what was going on across the river, I don't think they were that far north.  Also, Lauren made a reference to Sleepy Hollow, which is technically North Tarrytown.  I didn't catch the reference, but I thought it was interesting considering that it got its notoriety from Washington Irving's famous short story about the headless horseman called "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow".

[MortysCleaningLady]

I loved George the janitor walking in and picking up the tie.   That was awesome.   I also loved that Charles clearly knew his janitor, which is a nice not to heads of companies who make an effort to know all their employees.

 

Of course, that was Charles's ex-wife.   I guessed, incorrectly, that it was a former lost love that he would need to date for closure.   She clearly knew Millennial was owned by Empirical and should have avoided them.   I think she should have shopped it to Liza's age appropriate publishing pal.

 

Kelsey, Lauren, and Josh's vacation was ridiculous.   

[Snarklepuss]

1 hour ago, luna1122 said:

I loved how the dream making out was hotter and sexier than the real making out, which was realistically a little awkward and bumpy. I think Peter Hermann is gorgeous, and sexy, but Charles often just seems stodgy and a little dull, tho in the DREAM ,he was super hot. I also think Charles, tho he doesn't know it, senses that Liza not in her 20s. I don't mean that he actually has that thought process, he actually does believe she's what she says is, but he feels her maturity and life experience in some way, and connects to her because of it, NOT because he thinks she's a pretty 20 something.

Maybe it's just because I'm so into him, but I thought both the dream AND the real making out was hot.  OK maybe the real one was a little more awkward but IMO no less hot, probably because it felt so real.  I never thought I liked guys that were stodgy and dull, but who knows?  I think still water runs deep with Charles and we'll find out more about that from his ex next week.

BTW, I agree with you that Charles is sensing Liza's maturity and is attracted to it.  Whether he consciously senses that she's chronologically older is arguable.  He definitely isn't into her because she's supposed to be a 20 something.  If anything her youth has probably made him more hesitant going into this.

[Bort]

2 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

I agree with you that Charles is sensing Liza's maturity and is attracted to it.  Whether he consciously senses that she's chronologically older is arguable.  He definitely isn't into her because she's supposed to be a 20 something.  If anything her youth has probably made him more hesitant going into this.

The catalyst to this whole thing, too, was Liza seemingly dating Jay. Charles was willing to let it go before because she was dating Josh and he likely assumed that she wanted to date guys her own age. But she went out with Jay and it was like a switch got flipped in Charles.

[luna1122]

43 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

Maybe it's just because I'm so into him, but I thought both the dream AND the real making out was hot.  OK maybe the real one was a little more awkward but IMO no less hot, probably because it felt so real.  I never thought I liked guys that were stodgy and dull, but who knows?  I think still water runs deep with Charles and we'll find out more about that from his ex next week.

BTW, I agree with you that Charles is sensing Liza's maturity and is attracted to it.  Whether he consciously senses that she's chronologically older is arguable.  He definitely isn't into her because she's supposed to be a 20 something.  If anything her youth has probably made him more hesitant going into this.

One girl's stodgy is another girl's sexy; tastes are so subjective. In other roles, and even in promos for this show, Peter seems so much younger and looser than Charles to me. And I've just never been into suit guys. Charles is most definitely a suit. But undeniably handsome AF.

So Liza's little off the shoulder top cost nearly 1400 bucks. Sometimes I really don't get fashion. I'm pretty sure you could find something very much like it at a target for $25.

 

Edited August 10, 2017 by luna1122

[bilgistic]

And it was another ridiculous work-inappropriate shirt like last week's. I'm super casual, wearing three-quarter-sleeved knit shirts (to hide my tattoos) and plain chinos to work, but I sure don't come in looking like stoner Holly Hobbie. And that cargo skirt...no words.

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

I didn't see that coming that the author was Charles' wife.

Nor did I, but I don't understand why she would pitch to Liza knowing who she worked for. Of course Charles is going to find out about her book, unless that was the point in the first place? If so, why not just send Charles the manuscript directly? It seems needlessly complicated (aside from the plot point of Liza meeting the ex). I probably answered my own question there. Heh.

10 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

I wouldn't be averse to Liza developing a deeper friendship with Jay that turns romantic, but ultimately doesn't work and they realize that they're better as friends. Liza needs practice dating as a 40 something who is dating another 40 something. 

I agree. I also love the idea of Liza having a friend in publishing who knows her secret but won't use it against her. I feel like Kelsey is one temper tantrum away from outing Liza. It won't be intentional, but Kelsey has lashed out in the past.

1 hour ago, MortysCleaningLady said:

I loved George the janitor walking in and picking up the tie.  

Same here, and I thought for sure Liza's underwear would be next! 

I don't like Charles and Liza getting together while she still works for Empirical, but since it's going to happen, I wish the show would finally commit. I'm hating the will-they-or-won't-they of it at this point and find it exasperating.

I don't think Kelsey and Josh are right for each other, but I wouldn't mind them hooking up once to figure that out. Sometimes that's the only way to know. And I think as long as they're honest about it, it's won't be a big deal with Liza. 

[luna1122]

I actually like the outfit, and the cargo skirt and would sure wear it if I had Liza's body...which I do not. But I'd definitely have a knockoff version, not a $1400 blouse. I give them slack on the level of casualness in this office--it's NYC and it's a creative environment, so that doesn't bother me, tho I don't know for sure how realistic it is.

 

I'm not sure how Liza will feel about Kelsey and Josh. Even if Kelsey is upfront about it---and I'd think, given their history, that tho they're friends again, the question of honesty might still be a sore point between them--it's still sort of crossing a line. Josh wasn't a casual fling for Liza. It stings, even if you've moved on, to have to witness them in another relationship, let alone one with your sort of BFF.

[dubbel zout]

Josh and Kelsey might sting (and it probably should), but Liza can hardly get self-righteous about it. Josh caught her kissing another man on the night he was going to propose. And given that Josh has slept with AmyMontana, there is some distance now. And finally, Liza and Charles are doing stuff. Plus, Kelsey and Josh aren't any sort of endgame and likely not even something that will last beyond a few episodes. I don't think Kelsey wants someone as (seemingly) free-spirited as Josh. In the long run it would irritate her.

[dmc]

This was a good episode...But we all know this show is going to keep throwing dilemmas at Charles and Liza because it needs to for the sake of the plot...I always wondered if his ex would show back up since they are not divorced...she basically just left him...

My issue with Josh + Kelsey is always going to be Kelsey's relationship with Liza...I have an issue with bffs hooking up with the same people...Kelsey did stop it so points for her...but yeah it's one thing if she goes to Liza and basically gives her a heads up/gets the go ahead...anything else is sketchy...as for Josh...he honestly owes Liza nothing...Kelsey is the person who has the relationship with her. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

14 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Josh and Kelsey might sting (and it probably should), but Liza can hardly get self-righteous about it. Josh caught her kissing another man on the night he was going to propose. And given that Josh has slept with AmyMontana, there is some distance now. And finally, Liza and Charles are doing stuff. Plus, Kelsey and Josh aren't any sort of endgame and likely not even something that will last beyond a few episodes. I don't think Kelsey wants someone as (seemingly) free-spirited as Josh. In the long run it would irritate her.

My issue with a Kelsey/Josh hookup isn't lying, cheating, or moving on. It's about loyalty. Kelsey is one of Liza's best friends. You don't just fuck your BFF's (very recent) ex unless you're trying to start a fight designed to ruin your friendship.

Edited August 11, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo
Because "moving" is not the same thing as "moving on."

[BabyVegas]

Ok, fine, I'm willing to admit it. Charles is hot. And now I ship Charles and Liza because apparently I am fairly easily suggestible. When Liza said "I need to tell you something" do we think she was trying to tell Charles about her real age?

26 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

My issue with a Kelsey/Josh hookup isn't lying, cheating, or moving. It's about loyalty. Kelsey is one of Liza's best friends. You don't just fuck your BFF's (very recent) ex unless you're trying to start a fight designed to ruin your friendship.

Yeah, I think that's probably why Kelsey put a stop to it. I'm, in theory, okay with it way down the line, after both Josh and Liza have actually moved on and only if Kelsey gives Liza a heads up. It's a tricky area, but with Josh and Kelsey being roommates, I'm don't know if she'd be entirely surprised. Although, does Liza know they're roommates? I can't remember.

[luna1122]

Liza knows Kelsey is living with Josh, so if the thought hadn't at least flitted thru her mind once, she's superhuman.

I do think she was going to tell Charles her real age. Maybe.

[dubbel zout]

43 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

You don't just fuck your BFF's (very recent) ex unless you're trying to start a fight designed to ruin your friendship.

For me, since both Josh and Liza have moved on—and everyone knows they have—it's not such a problem.

Mileage varies; that's fine.

3 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

Liza knows Kelsey is living with Josh, so if the thought hadn't at least flitted thru her mind once, she's superhuman.

Liza seems to have gotten over that, so yeah, if she hasn't thought that Josh and Kelsey haven't/won't hooked up, she's superhuman—or isn't going to overly upset.

[Snarklepuss]

3 hours ago, luna1122 said:

One girl's stodgy is another girl's sexy; tastes are so subjective. In other roles, and even in promos for this show, Peter seems so much younger and looser than Charles to me. And I've just never been into suit guys. Charles is most definitely a suit. But undeniably handsome AF.

Perhaps, but for a supposedly stodgy suit guy, Charles certainly isn't acting like one by engaging in inappropriate sexual contact with a female subordinate as an executive in a major publishing company.  Which leads me to believe there's a whole 'nother side to him that he keeps to himself and we haven't been treated to.....yet.  And I've always been attracted to suit guys because under the suit is usually a surprise, LOL.  Well, you know what I mean!  ;-)

With Charles' job comes responsibility to dress and act a certain way, and the suit definitely creates a professional image that may not be all there is to the man.  Lawyer hubbie can attest to this since he's always in a suit at work. 

[voiceover]

5 hours ago, MortysCleaningLady said:

 I also loved that Charles clearly knew his janitor, which is a nice not to heads of companies who make an effort to know all their employees.

 

I thought it was pretty realistic, since as CEO, Charles has undoubtedly worked nights/weekends.  Probably had more convos with the janitor than with some of his staff.

Thanks to those posters pointing out the questionable motives behind Charles' ex pitching a book to his company behind his back.  I think I was so distracted by the book sex ("by-the-book" sex, ha) that I missed anything subtle in this ep.

[soapygal]

12 minutes ago, voiceover said:

I thought it was pretty realistic, since as CEO, Charles has undoubtedly worked nights/weekends.  Probably had more convos with the janitor than with some of his staff.

Thanks to those posters pointing out the questionable motives behind Charles' ex pitching a book to his company behind his back.  I think I was so distracted by the book sex ("by-the-book" sex, ha) that I missed anything subtle in this ep.

I get the feeling that since this was his grandfather's company that they fostered a bit a family spirit with all of their employees. Charles mentioned in his tirade last week that there were 75 employees so I assume he knows each and every one of them, just like his grandfather and father probably did before him. 

Glad to have found this site. I used to poke around the old Television Without Pity message boards so this feels like a nice replacement.  

[politichick]

I agree that Charles likely knows George and his name because Charles has worked many late nights, but isn't it more likely that he works for the building? Charles owns the company but isn't it in a major building downtown? A lot of times cleaning people have the same set of offices for years and years.

I have a feeling that once Charles and Liza finally become an item that they will keep it on the down-low for ages unless the writers decide on another premise for the show. But also agree that he either knows that she's lying about her age and if he doesn't is absolutely attracted to her maturity. She doesn't behave like a 20-something and she's barely able to pass for late 20s, especially in comparison to fresher-faced Kelsey and Lauren. As I've said before, though, her clothes are the pits!

Not enough Diana last night.

[Snarklepuss]

3 hours ago, voiceover said:

I thought it was pretty realistic, since as CEO, Charles has undoubtedly worked nights/weekends.  Probably had more convos with the janitor than with some of his staff.

I thought that too.  Most executives work late a lot and know their janitors better than they know some of their kids!
 

3 hours ago, voiceover said:

Thanks to those posters pointing out the questionable motives behind Charles' ex pitching a book to his company behind his back.  I think I was so distracted by the book sex ("by-the-book" sex, ha) that I missed anything subtle in this ep.

Hah, good one!  Sex "by-the-book", LOL.  I was distracted by that too, so I'd like to thank those posters too!  Yeah, really, his ex had to have known that was Charles' company.  I don't buy that she isn't doing it to get closer to him.  Millennial isn't a good fit for her "novel" anyway.  I'm thinking she is only writing it to get at him somehow, like to air his dirty laundry, so now everyone will know "what he did to her".  And it may even make Liza question him as well.  Should be interesting!

[NeenerNeener]

17 hours ago, voiceover said:

I want to know more about the LL Moore ship-jumping -- for reals, a cornerstone author signs with a new house as quickly as that?  

Yeah, I want to know more about his contract with Empirical. Authors can't usually take a best-selling series with them when they change publishing houses, can they? And these days a lot of good authors are just being dropped by their traditional publishers, not poached by other houses. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

My issue with a Kelsey/Josh hookup isn't lying, cheating, or moving. It's about loyalty. Kelsey is one of Liza's best friends. You don't just fuck your BFF's (very recent) ex unless you're trying to start a fight designed to ruin your friendship.

It's New York so there are literally millions of other men.  It's so stupid.

[dubbel zout]

16 minutes ago, NeenerNeener said:

Authors can't usually take a best-selling series with them when they change publishing houses, can they?

I wrote about this in the last episode thread, but depending on how the contract is written, they can take the series with them. The original publisher might have rights to what's been written, but a new publisher can get subsequent titles.

[rho]

21 minutes ago, politichick said:

I agree that Charles likely knows George and his name because Charles has worked many late nights, but isn't it more likely that he works for the building? Charles owns the company but isn't it in a major building downtown? A lot of times cleaning people have the same set of offices for years and years.

That's what I'm thinking too. Good on Charles for knowing the guy's actual name. Very commendable. But also, Janitor George probably isn't one of the 75 people employed by Empirical so at least we know that guy will still have a job despite the LL Moore debacle.

Quote

Not enough Diana last night.

Too true!!! I hope we get more of her now that the ex is sniffing around Charles/Millennial/Empirical.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Most companies rent office space and the building hires the janitorial crew (at least that's the way it's been almost everywhere I've worked, from small businesses with fewer employees than Empirical to huge corporations). On the rare occasion that the building doesn't hire the janitorial staff, the company usually just contracts a janitorial service rather than hiring a janitorial staff that works directly for the company. But either way, I agree that Charles is the kind of guy who works late hours which is why he knew George's name. Regardless of who issues George's paycheck, I think Charles is one of those people who makes an effort to be nice to people around him. I can see someone like Diana working late but not even acknowledging George's presence when he comes in to empty her trash. She is much less of a people person than Charles is and she usually only makes an effort when required to be nice to someone (like a client). Of course, that's why it's been great to see those rare moments where she is genuinely nice to Liza, like when she took her to lunch and told her not to let her fight with Kelsey ruin her career.

7 hours ago, luna1122 said:

Liza knows Kelsey is living with Josh, so if the thought hadn't at least flitted thru her mind once, she's superhuman.

 

6 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Liza seems to have gotten over that, so yeah, if she hasn't thought that Josh and Kelsey haven't/won't hooked up, she's superhuman—or isn't going to overly upset.

Wow, so the assumption is that if two people live together and their sexuality conveniently aligns, people assume they're going to have sex at some point? I guess I just have seen so many examples in my life where that isn't true that I would never make that assumption. My (straight male) godfather and his platonic female best friend (also straight) have lived together for 30+ years (since before I was born). My sister and her female best friend lived in a house with three guys (everyone in the house was straight) for three years in college. My male BFF and I were going to live together when we moved off campus (the only reason we didn't is I transferred to another school, but whenever I visited over the years, I stayed at his place and we NEVER hooked up. I can't imagining hooking up with a close friend's ex either though, so obviously my mileage varies on all of these fronts!

[dubbel zout]

32 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Wow, so the assumption is that if two people live together and their sexuality conveniently aligns, people assume they're going to have sex at some point?

When it's a fluffy TV show? Yes, the assumption is that if two people live together and their sexuality conveniently aligns, they're going to have sex at some point.

IRL, of course, people easily don't have sex with each other in many, many situations.

Edited August 11, 2017 by dubbel zout

[Eri]

11 hours ago, dmc said:

My issue with Josh + Kelsey is always going to be Kelsey's relationship with Liza...I have an issue with bffs hooking up with the same people...Kelsey did stop it so points for her...but yeah it's one thing if she goes to Liza and basically gives her a heads up/gets the go ahead...anything else is sketchy...as for Josh...he honestly owes Liza nothing...Kelsey is the person who has the relationship with her. 

Yes! This is how I feel; I can't stand it when a show has a group of friends who have slept with 2 or more people in the same social circle, especially in a city as big as NYC. It just feels way too Dawson's Creek.

When they were talking on the balcony, I rolled my eyes when Josh went on a pity party. I get that he was upset about Liza but Montana was hardly a serious relationship for him. I think he just wanted an excuse to man crush on Kelsey. I agree with whoever said that Kelsey has a type - I was disappointed when she never let Zane explain his actions. I knew he wasn't going to last till the end of the season but I was still sad to see his cute bod and wardrobe go :(

I knew the beginning of the episode wasn't real but that dream sequence was rather steamy and...*gulp* oh dear. I laughed when it got a "GIRL!" from Maggie. The actual encounter made me cringe because of the awkwardness though haha.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Eri

[interesting]

11 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

My issue with a Kelsey/Josh hookup isn't lying, cheating, or moving. It's about loyalty. Kelsey is one of Liza's best friends. You don't just fuck your BFF's (very recent) ex unless you're trying to start a fight designed to ruin your friendship.

That was my issue with it too, you just don't go and do it with one of your good friend's ex, I just feel it's wrong, like immoral wrong, of course there's nothing stopping them and they don't owe anyone anything, but I'm glad Kelsey stopped it.

And oh my, that scene in the beginning, wow, that peek-a-boo at the chest and abs from Charles.  As a gay guy, I totally appreciate a hot man with a rocking bod wearing a suit, and I have videos to prove it haha

Pauline, hmm, she sure is a stealthy ass, not sure what her real agenda is, of course Charles was going to see chapters of her book.  But I can't wait to find out what the other side of Charles was that made her leave.  I didn't see that twist coming either, I was so drawn in to the parallels drew between her and Liza's life that it was kind of shocking when we find out that she was Charles's ex-wife.  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

2 hours ago, Eri said:

Yes! This is how I feel; I can't stand it when a show has a group of friends who have slept with 2 or more people in the same social circle, especially in a city as big as NYC. It just feels way too Dawson's Creek.

When they were talking on the balcony, I rolled my eyes when Josh went on a pity party. I get that he was upset about Liza but Montana was hardly a serious relationship for him.

ITA - it's what I call Peach Pit syndrome because everyone on the show dates everyone else (Kelly dated Steve, Brandon and Dylan, Dylan dated Brenda and Kelly, David dated Donna after he had a crush on Kelly, etc). It's so ridiculous.

And I agree that Josh whining about not being able to trust people after Montana was just an excuse to feel sorry for himself. I'm not on Montana's side BUT what she did with her hack "art" betrayed Maggie's trust, not Josh's. At worst, she put him in an awkward position but she didn't actually do anything to hurt him (unless you count making him go to her lame "exhibit" because it was painfully pretentious). On top of that, he and Montana were fucking for like, all of two weeks? It's not like they were in a serious committed long term relationship and he found out that she had somehow betrayed him.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

Clips:

 

[Aulty]

What I like about the Charles character is that he is quite straight forward - both his angry rant last week and telling Liza that he does not regret what (almost) happened were quite refreshing. At the same time it made me realise that we know hardly anything about Charles.

I'm still not against Josh and Kelsey hooking up because I think the story would make sense if both Liza and Kelsey continue to be friends but both trying to keep their love life  more private - probably with Lauren as a loose cannon in between.

Now, Pauline. This storyline makes me so angry. The book does not fit with Millenial - so of course she has an ulterior motive. However aren't there only a few ways this could, realistically, play out? If Charles had feelings for her or Empirical/Millenial publish the book (why should they?) it would spoil up Liza/Charles big time. Or Pauline switches into super-jealous mode because she can't get Charles back, goes all Sherlock and discover Liza's age and threaten her with it (aka Thad 2.0). Or will Liza self-sacrifice her by telling Charles to 'go and work things out with Pauline first'. Oh please don't make Liza hook up with Jay (nice guy, but a friend of Charles) because she has to put her lust for her boss on the backburner - sorry I'm rambling. this episode didn't make me happy.

[MissEwa]

Yeah, I can't figure out Pauline's angle. I have to guess that seeking out Empirical was deliberate and a way to... humiliate? Hurt?... Charles, but doing it through Millennial seems super risky. Kelsey was the one who was supposed to be doing that session and I can't see Kelsey's response to her pitch being anything more than a barely-concealed eyeroll and a 'probably not a good fit' brush-off. She got lucky that Liza filled in, and that Liza's secret backstory (which we're assuming Pauline doesn't know) meant that she related to that - rather generic IMO - pitch, otherwise whatever plan she had wouldn't have worked. 

I don't love or hate Kelsey and Josh. I feel like it makes a certain amount of sense as a rebound/working-out-issues-type situation that could maybe lead to more, and while it's not great for Kelsey and Liza's friendship, from a show perspective them both being in relationships they can't tell the other about could set up an interesting tension. 

Not saying much about the Liza-Charles thing. It still skeeves me out but I know I'm very much in the minority there so *shrug*. 

[luna1122]

14 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

.

 

Wow, so the assumption is that if two people live together and their sexuality conveniently aligns, people assume they're going to have sex at some point? I guess I just have seen so many examples in my life where that isn't true that I would never make that assumption. My (straight male) godfather and his platonic female best friend (also straight) have lived together for 30+ years (since before I was born). My sister and her female best friend lived in a house with three guys (everyone in the house was straight) for three years in college. My male BFF and I were going to live together when we moved off campus (the only reason we didn't is I transferred to another school, but whenever I visited over the years, I stayed at his place and we NEVER hooked up. I can't imagining hooking up with a close friend's ex either though, so obviously my mileage varies on all of these fronts!

No, that's not the assumption I was making. I said if Liza hadn't at least once had the thought that they might hook up, or be tempted, i'd be surprised. But I'm a suspicious sort, probably. Attractive men and women+drinking+lingering issues with Liza seem ripe for a hookup to at least be toyed with, and I can't imagine that she wouldn't have at least wondered, at some point, if it could or had happened. Plenty of attractive men and women manage to go without having sex with one another, so I obviously don't think it's inevitable. Just...possible. And sure, hooking up with a friend's ex is off limits, which is one reason, probably, that it actually sometimes happens. forbidden fruit and all.

Darren Star said in some article that that door (with Josh/Kelsey) was now closed, which kind of surprised me, as I figured they'd go there, but apparently he's done with that storyline, which: good.

Edited August 11, 2017 by luna1122

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, Eri said:

I was disappointed when she never let Zane explain his actions.

I wouldn't be surprised if Zane pops up again. Then Kelsey could be torn between him and Josh.

8 hours ago, Aulty said:

Jay (nice guy, but a friend of Charles)

They were at Princeton at the same time, but I don't think they're friends. 

3 hours ago, luna1122 said:

Darren Star said in some article that that door was now closed, which kind of surprised me, as I figured they'd go there, but apparently he's done with that storyline, which: good.

Which story is done, Kelsey/Josh? I can't tell what you mean.

[luna1122]

Yes, the Josh/Kelsey thing.

[dubbel zout]

Thanks!

[CAT19]

First time poster here. I'm a Charles/Liza shipper, and I am getting really annoyed the writers won't let us see what they look like as a couple. I've seen some fans mention that once Liza and Charles are together then the show is over. That's not true! Them getting together was never the premise of the show. Let them date for a little while and then the show can go back to focusing on the female friends having fun together, Liza having awkward/funny encounters at work, and then sneak in cute couple moments with Charles like we saw with Josh for 3 seasons. They could do funny stuff like Charles doesn't want to tell his daughters about Liza because he doesn't want them to get too attached, and they're hiding it from their co-workers, etc. I just don't want the show to end with Charles finding out and they get together and we never saw what their relationship was like. 

 

I've also seen a lot of people say Pauline's backstory is like Liza's, and I disagree there as well. I think Liza can relate, but I never got the impression that Liza felt forced to quit work and stay home with her daughter. I felt she chose that staying home with her daughter was what she wanted. I don't think she regrets those years raising her daughter and sacrificing her career. I think now her career is a priority in her life and she doesn't want to make any sacrifices for it. Martha Plimpton's character made that dig at her in season 1, saying she didn't stop working, "that's what nannies are for." I always thought Liza decided raising her child was more important to her than her career at that point in her life. I would love for there to be a scene where Liza goes off on Pauline for abandoning her daughters. Something like mothers make sacrifices for their children, it means putting their needs ahead of your own, you don't take a "vacation" from your family. I can't believe they are trying to make Pauline a sympathetic character and draw similarities between her and Liza. Pauline is a selfish excuse of a mom/wife and I hope Charles wants nothing to do with her. (Like Liza wants nothing to do with David).

[dubbel zout]

36 minutes ago, CAT19 said:

I would love for there to be a scene where Liza goes off on Pauline for abandoning her daughters. Something like mothers make sacrifices for their children, it means putting their needs ahead of your own, you don't take a "vacation" from your family. I can't believe they are trying to make Pauline a sympathetic character and draw similarities between her and Liza. Pauline is a selfish excuse of a mom/wife

Liza is not the person to go off on Pauline for anything except misleading her about who she was during Pitchfest. 

I also don't think Pauline is selfish just because she left her family. If she needs to be away so that she can return better equipped to deal with the separation (or are she and Charles divorced?), how is that wrong? People are complicated; they aren't perfect. We've heard only Charles's side of the breakup, and I think to call Pauline "selfish" from what little we've seen and heard is very judgmental.

[Bort]

I think it depends on what the custody arrangements are. If Pauline left and Charles has sole custody, then yeah, a case could be made for saying she abandoned her children. But if they have joint custody and the kids live at his place (for example) two weeks and then hers for two weeks and so forth, then that's not abandonment, that's just a typical marital split. But I don't recall if they've ever said what's going on with that.

[BabyVegas]

Maybe I'm just being obtuse, but is it possible that Pauline didn't know that Millenial was an imprint of Empirical? It's relatively new, so I can see people not necessarily knowing which publishing house Millenial belongs to. But if I'm wrong and it's unlikely that she wouldn't have known, then yeah, that was a shady-ass move.

[soapygal]

16 minutes ago, BabyVegas said:

Maybe I'm just being obtuse, but is it possible that Pauline didn't know that Millenial was an imprint of Empirical? It's relatively new, so I can see people not necessarily knowing which publishing house Millenial belongs to. But if I'm wrong and it's unlikely that she wouldn't have known, then yeah, that was a shady-ass move.

No way. She saw the information about Millennial in the EW article.  She even mentioned it when she talked to Liza. Pauline is not only a writer but she was married to Charles for many years. I would be shocked if she  didn't know the inner workings of a publishing house enough to be fully aware of where she should pitch her book.  Shady as hell.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

21 minutes ago, BabyVegas said:

Maybe I'm just being obtuse, but is it possible that Pauline didn't know that Millenial was an imprint of Empirical? It's relatively new, so I can see people not necessarily knowing which publishing house Millenial belongs to.

She read about Millennial on a "Top 29 Under 29", which would've mentioned Empirical.