S03.E10: Built, Not Born

[FormerMod-a1]

Quote

A distress call from the Android's friend, Victor, leads to answers about Two's past.

 

Slightly more spoilery description from syfy.com
 

Spoiler

The Android's past is uncovered as the crew must seek out her creator.  She isn't what they expected.

[ParadoxLost]

Strong episode top to bottom.  This one got me in my feels. 

Interesting that they showed that even before the memory wipe, Ryo liked Android and saw her as one of them and introduced her to hot chocolate.  Kind of begs the question of what is the deal with Four turning on the crew to the point of being willing to send assassins after them now just because he has his memories back and is power mad. 

Everyone had a nice moment with Android.  Loved Three introducing her to alcohol and apologizing.  And Android's that's awkward about Two's relationship with the creator.

I think the show is getting better and better as this season goes on.

Given the final scene, I wonder if the offer to adjust Android's reactions had a more nefarious purpose and Five forestalled that by her reaction.  Also odd that they want a human mind in an android to help with their cause but didn't forcibly put the creator into Android.

Edited August 5, 2017 by ParadoxLost

[thuganomics85]

Interesting episode.  Thought it was mainly going to be just an Android-centric episode and everything, but them revealing Two's involvement and their history was a great twist.  Turns out that the android creator is this Dr. Shaw (I think that was her name?), who looks exactly like Android (whose real name is actually Sookie), and she had actually been involved with Dwarf Star and Two/Rebecca was the reason she came up with creating Androids and eventually giving them free will.  Oh, and she and Rebecca were in a relationship, because I guess Zoie Palmer is contractually obligated to always be romantically involved with the beautiful, brunette leads on her shows!  Shaw also has cancer, but Two hooked her up with some of those nanites, so she's better.... for now.

And, hey, Shaw was able to upload Sarah into an android body (luckily, they were able to recreate Sarah's looks with a quickness!), so she's out and about, but it seems like Shaw/Victor have a particular plan for her.  Oh, and Victor is clearly just a wee bit shady, since that person he killed was clearly not in self defense like he claimed he was earlier.  Hmm, while Three clearly is an anti-Android bigot, he might have been right to not trust Viktor.

Enjoyed all of Android's "lost memories", including Ryo introducing her to hot chocolate and how Rebecca ended up becoming the leader of the Razi.  Which naturally including her killing a bunch of fools who dared tried to toss her off the ship.  All while Marcus just casually ate his food.  Yeah, Marcus is totally someone who would just not get involved, and back whoever wins!

The scene with Three and Android was nice.  As was the ones with her and Six and her and Five.

Good episode.

[Chaos Theory]

Zoie Palmer must have the coolest tv job.  She gets to plays several incarnations of The Android as well as Dr. Shaw who has done serious sexytime past with Two.  

I like Shaw's backstory and how it connects with Two and the Android and adds to the mythology of the universe and the human acting androids.

[AnimeMania]

4 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Oh, and Victor is clearly just a wee bit shady, since that person he killed was clearly not in self defense like he claimed he was earlier.  

They didn't really explain how the black android got shot in the head.

[paulvdb]

I'm assuming Victor shot him.

[Paloma]

2 hours ago, paulvdb said:

I'm assuming Victor shot him.

But then why did Victor bring him on the Raza? Did Victor assume that he was too damaged to tell what had really happened? 

[Paloma]

Remember way back on July 23 (2 weeks ago as I write this) when Mirrorim and Clanstarling speculated in the Hot Chocolate thread about the possibility of putting Sarah's consciousness into an android body, and Joseph Mallozzi replied, "Theoretically, it's possible but technically?  You would require an expert in neurorobotics who would have access to a lab capable of creating, not only an android, but an android based on Sarah's exact physical parameters.  A tall order." You got us good, JM! 

Seriously, though, I love the way the "tall order" was fulfilled--this episode made it believable (well, at least in the context of the DM universe).

[DEM]

Phew. In the thread for 3x07 I complained (yet again!) about the lack of tie-in between Two and The Android. Never would I have dreamt that we'd get a story like this one!  Dr Victor Frankenstein Irena Shaw created Rebecca, then Dwarf Star snatched Rebecca away and tortured her crazy, but Rebecca escaped and returned to Irena, only to find out Irena was dying so Irena made herself an android body (our Android!) but then decided not to use it, and eventually the lovers (which is kinda creepy if you think about it but okay) parted ways and Portia (née Rebecca) carted Android along with her in her murderous rampage across the galaxy.  Phew!

Amazing.

As is usual with Two and Android, however, they never got around to talking about themselves with one another.  Android had nice talks with Six and Three, but it remains to be seen whether Android and Two will ever talk about what they each learned independently about their pasts and what that means for them in the present. As lovely as it was for Six to assert that Android's provenance doesn't make her "lesser" in his eyes; the Irena-Suki comparison doesn't have the same relevance or emotional resonance to him as it would to Two.

This disconnect is interesting. I mean, there have been hints since at least 1x02 (I think) that Android was connected to Two more so than to the ship, and although we've seen their bond over the series, they tend to keep each other at a certain distance. It's almost as if, despite all the memory wipes, they both know there are things they don't want to deal with.

Turning to the Three/Sarah story: Nice payoff! I liked the way all these threads came together.  And despite my earlier desire for Sarah to be evil (heh), now I hope she never will be, and that she'll foil whatever nefarious plan Victor is plotting! That goes triple if he attempts to harm Dr Shaw (who also better not be evil). Gosh, I really don't like him.

This ep clarified (again?) what I don't like about Five and why I don't find somewhat similar behaviours from Three off-putting.  Five is very black-and-white, about face without any self-reflection. Three can be selfish and bigoted, but he: 1) owns those attitudes and 2) when he changes his mind it's because he's thought about stuff and he doesn't try to justify the change with high-minded (but ultimately self-serving) rhetoric. Moreover, his crew mates don't gloss over his selfishness or try to make it noble.

Finally: RYO!!  That flashback was a nice surprise!

Edited August 5, 2017 by DEM

[2727]

How is Victor able to unlock Android's memories, again?

He was creepy when we first met him and has only gotten worse. Don't fall for the bad guy, Android! (btw, if factions are being formed, I'm on Never Suki*.)

Is Three becoming almost a little too empathetic and nice? Sarah has softened him but I don't see their love having a happy ending and am dreading that for him.

 

 

* Closed captioning would have it be Suki but the syfy recaps say Sookie. Either way, it's too cutesy for Android.

Edited August 5, 2017 by 2727

[Loandbehold]

12 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Interesting that they showed that even before the memory wipe, Ryo liked Android and saw her as one of them and introduced her to hot chocolate.  Kind of begs the question of what is the deal with Four turning on the crew to the point of being willing to send assassins after them now just because he has his memories back and is power mad.

From my perspective, Ryo tried several times to get the crew to turn over the blink drive, which he believes is the key to winning the war. Wasn't it only after our crew destroyed the station and took back the drive that he hired the mercenaries to kill them?

I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. ZP got to platy yet another character and  make out w/ MO, which is a pretty nice bonus - for actor and this viewer alike. Liked all of Android's (Sookie??? Nope, never heard that la,la,la,la) restored memories. When will we see Sarah again? Nice to see 3's growth on the android-is-more-than-a-machine front. His apology was adorable. In fact, all of Android's scenes with the individual crew members were good. 

Only 3 episodes left? Wow, this season is flying by. 

[DEM]

3 hours ago, 2727 said:

How is Victor able to unlock Android's memories, again?

Good question. I went back and watched 2x04 (his intro ep), and there he ran a diagnostic and concluded that Android was different by design. It seems to me that there's much going on with Victor that he's hiding. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that he could unlock and/or already knew a lot more, but he's concealing it. The fact that he tried to convince Android that the Raza crew might have been lying about Android's memory wipe even though he KNOWS that the crew were themselves at a catastrophic cognitive loss tells me this dude is up to no good. He's probably a double agent!

Edited August 5, 2017 by DEM

[Clanstarling]

13 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Interesting that they showed that even before the memory wipe, Ryo liked Android and saw her as one of them and introduced her to hot chocolate.  Kind of begs the question of what is the deal with Four turning on the crew to the point of being willing to send assassins after them now just because he has his memories back and is power mad. 

Given the final scene, I wonder if the offer to adjust Android's reactions had a more nefarious purpose and Five forestalled that by her reaction.  Also odd that they want a human mind in an android to help with their cause but didn't forcibly put the creator into Android.

I paused for a moment and thought "were the Android's memories wiped twice? Ryo's awfully nice here." I did notice, when she shared drinks with Three in the present, that she didn't shut down when he said "hot chocolate," so her shut down code must have been reset - or maybe there isn't really a shut down code for her anymore?

Yes, I think there were nefarious reasons, and I was suspicious of Victor from the beginning of the episode - with no good reason to feel that way.

8 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

They didn't really explain how the black android got shot in the head.

I agree that Victor shot him - especially since Rhou (?) said something about "this is wrong" when he woke up that one time.

4 hours ago, Paloma said:

Remember way back on July 23 (2 weeks ago as I write this) when Mirrorim and Clanstarling speculated in the Hot Chocolate thread about the possibility of putting Sarah's consciousness into an android body, and Joseph Mallozzi replied, "Theoretically, it's possible but technically?  You would require an expert in neurorobotics who would have access to a lab capable of creating, not only an android, but an android based on Sarah's exact physical parameters.  A tall order." You got us good, JM! 

Seriously, though, I love the way the "tall order" was fulfilled--this episode made it believable (well, at least in the context of the DM universe).

And I've regretted, ever since, that I didn't reply "hmm, who do we know that has a huge bio-tech company with money to burn?"  I hesitated, because you know - that was the creator speaking (lol), and now I've got no proof that I thought that, curses!

Boy, Three's come a long way, baby. And he is gorgeous in that soft pinkish lighting.

In the regained memory, I noticed Five wasn't quite so sweet or childlike. That was interesting to me. But I wonder what they were doing to the Android.

I loved this episode beginning to end.

[snowwhyte]

I didn't expect the Android creator reveal and enjoyed discovering her relationship to Two. I have been waiting for Sarah to get her Android body but I was worried the entire time that the GA would show up and ruin the transfer. I am more invested in Sarah and her story than I realised but I have a bad feeling that her storyline with the androids is not going to end well. I want her to get a happy ending but that seems unlikely.

[AnimeMania]

10 hours ago, paulvdb said:

I'm assuming Victor shot him.

 

7 hours ago, Paloma said:

But then why did Victor bring him on the Raza? Did Victor assume that he was too damaged to tell what had really happened? 

Why didn't the girl android say anything, was she so afraid she chose death?

[Shades of Scarlet]

Fantastic episode; in my view one of the entire series' best given the completely unexpected twists and excellent writing and performances.  Zoie Palmer did a hell of a nice accent there - sounded like it was supposed to be Australian.  Loved the surprise tie-in to Two's backstory, and the flashbacks (particularly the one with her killing those doofuses and taking command while Boone just sat there and continued his meal) were outstanding. 

When Chase (the android "caretaker" in charge of the "refuge") called up and spoke to Five about using the Android, there was more than a hint of menace in the way that he abruptly snapped at her and said "Respectfully, who cares what you want?"  Nice clue.  Very good job of keeping a lid on his and Victor's true motives.

Glad to see Sarah freed from her virtual "prison" - I felt bad for her. 

I'd have to go back and check a transcript of S3E4 to be certain, but in that ep's close-to-final scene when the Android time jumped and had a conversation with Old Five and asked her what was coming for the Raza crew, I believe "Irina" was the first event or item she mentioned and the first one we've now seen depicted.  I heard it as "Carina" then but seems pretty clear it was "Irina" now.  Wonder if we will see any of the rest - I only remember "The Black Ships" and "the Fall of the House of Ishida" for sure - this season. 

This has got to be renewed.  Just a wonderful show. 

[2727]

44 minutes ago, Shades of Scarlet said:

When Chase (the android "caretaker" in charge of the "refuge") called up and spoke to Five about using the Android, there was more than a hint of menace in the way that he abruptly snapped at her and said "Respectfully, who cares what you want?" Nice clue. Very good job of keeping a lid on his and Victor's true motives.

Something was also fishy when Chase stammered that he looked like the guy who was blown up on EOS because they're the same model. Yeah, no.

ETA: Just watched After Show and Zoie explained that she and JM collaborated on Android's name and ended up with Sookie

Spoiler

which is the name of one of her dogs.

Edited August 5, 2017 by 2727

[Joseph Mallozzi]

14 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

They didn't really explain how the black android got shot in the head.

In the flashback scene, Anya's owner finds them and pulls a gun.  When he is distracted, Victor grabs for him.  Shots are fired in the melee.

10 hours ago, Paloma said:

Remember way back on July 23 (2 weeks ago as I write this) when Mirrorim and Clanstarling speculated in the Hot Chocolate thread about the possibility of putting Sarah's consciousness into an android body, and Joseph Mallozzi replied, "Theoretically, it's possible but technically?  You would require an expert in neurorobotics who would have access to a lab capable of creating, not only an android, but an android based on Sarah's exact physical parameters.  A tall order." You got us good, JM! 

Seriously, though, I love the way the "tall order" was fulfilled--this episode made it believable (well, at least in the context of the DM universe).

Yes, coincidentally, Dr. Shaw's field IS neurorobotics!

[solea]

Confused as to when Two, originally Rebecca, became Portia Lin. 

[MissLucas]

Well, that was quite the flashback overload!!! Great to see some long lingering questions answered like Two's connection to the Android. Also finally answered: what had happened to the two Raza crew members Not-Calchek had mentioned at the beginning of this season. And I think we also did not know before this episode that the Raza had planned to go after Rook once the mining colony job was done and that was what caused Portia and Ryo's decision to kill off Griffin. (Did we already know that? I don't think so.)

Got a bit teary during the Android/Six and Android/Three conversations.

Ryo being nice to the Android did not really surprise me. He was also casting the deciding vote to keep Five on-board instead of air-locking her. And nice detail to have Portia apologizing to Emily during the Android modification.

One thing I did not really understand was how or rather why Sookie was created. Caretaker Dude claimed it was to give Rebecca a substitute for Doctor Shaw. But once they were alone Two and Doctor Shaw talked about Sookie being created as a vessel for Doctor Shaw's consciousness - yet she couldn't go through with it due to ethical concerns. Yet in this episode she has no problems doing the same for Sara. What changed? I suppose the whole shady business with Victor has got something to do with it.

The name in the not-prophecy was Carina not Irina - though Doctor Shaw was part of it:

Quote

Dwarf Star's conspiracy. The doubled deception. Kryden. Carina. The Accelerated. The fall of the House of Ishida. A meeting with your creator. The Black Ships.

Now that several items of my 'need answers'-list have been cleared off this one got the top-spot: How did Rebecca become Portia?

[Chaos Theory]

Quote

One thing I did not really understand was how or rather why Sookie was created. Caretaker Dude claimed it was to give Rebecca a substitute for Doctor Shaw. But once they were alone Two and Doctor Shaw talked about Sookie being created as a vessel for Doctor Shaw's consciousness - yet she couldn't go through with it due to ethical concerns. Yet in this episode she has no problems doing the same for Sara. What changed? I suppose the whole shady business with Victor has got something to do with it.

Originally Doctor Shaw created The Android as a vessel to house her intellect for when she died.  Due to her work with the self aware androids and Rebecca she couldn't bring herself to do it for complicated reasons.  Rebecca had a hard time letting go and put Doctor Shaw in to Stasis.  As for why she took Sookie the Android.  Both The Caretaker Dude and Doctor Shaw gave different reasons but both might be true.  Rebecca couldn't let go so she took the one last piece of Shaw she had left.    It was less ethical concerns really and more personal which is why she could put Sara into a Android body.  

[wanderingstar]

This was a good ep. I love getting background on all the characters. 

Seeing The Android's creator was interesting, as was her relationship with Two/Portia/Rebecca. 

"I'm a lesser version of someone else." Poor Android. What an identity crisis that must be.

This episode was full of great moments, but my favorites were Six with Android ("You're an original; that's what we love about you"), and Three apologizing to her and knocking back a drink.

Not really surprised Victor turned out to be shady. Wonder if he'll succeed in turning Sarah to the rebel androids' cause.

[Eulipian 5k]

23 hours ago, Joseph Mallozzi said:

Yes, coincidentally, Dr. Shaw's field IS neurorobotics!

In light this "leak" from a certain poster, it seems our AG was pre-cog: 

ON AUGUST 4 ATTORNEY GENERAL JEFF SESSIONS SAID:

 "Finally, here is what I want to tell every American today: This nation must end the culture of leaks. We will investigate and seek to bring criminals to justice. ..These cases are never easy. But cases will be made, and leakers will be held accountable."

This was a wonderful twist to "regenerate" Sarah. All the new memories were great, intriguing additions to the story, thx, "leaker", :-). Every bit of dialogue hit the mark.

[xaxat]

I am totally on Team Raza on the debate over "our Android" versus what the other androids want her to be.

She's already a fully formed individual even without the emotion chip.

[tennisgurl]

Great and rather unexpected episode! I really liked the Androids backstory, and her connection to Two/Portia, and how everything fit in with each other. I'm not going to lie, I didn't really trust Victor throughput the whole episode. I actually thought he was fine in his last appearance, but here it seemed weird and rather ungrateful to keep going on about how the human Raza crew would never accept the Android, even while they were risking their lives to help them. I also now wonder if Anya the blond Android killed herself partially out of guilt for her old owners death?

I didn't expect the Ryo cameo! He did always like the Android, so I'm not that surprised that he was nice to her even when he was Ryo the first time. Also, Portia had a nice moment with pre-mind wiped Five, and Five seemed a little less quirky than Five is. I always like getting little glimpses of the crew in their pre mind wipe days. Also, Marcuse's reaction to Portia killing two guys and taking over the ship? "Meh, its dinner time". Sounds about right.

Poor Android, that's a pretty intense identity crisis. At least the crew has her back. I straight up "awwwwwwwed" when Three was showing her how to drink and apologized for how he treated her and other Androids, and then she said how she liked how he speaks his mind, and that they have that in common. Now I wonder if her and Two will have a few poinient and/or awkward conversations about Irina and Rebecca/Portia.

[Paloma]

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Portia had a nice moment with pre-mind wiped Five, and Five seemed a little less quirky than Five is.

It was not clear to me when that scene took place--for some reason I just assumed it was after they lost their memories. Did they call each other by name in that scene, or was there some other indication that it was pre-mind wipe? 

[DEM]

On 8/5/2017 at 7:57 AM, 2727 said:

Closed captioning would have it be Suki but the syfy recaps say Sookie.

And Zoie Palmer writes Sukie, so I guess that's the correct one? But I'm with you: I hope we don't have to learn it.

 

1 hour ago, Paloma said:

It was not clear to me when that scene took place

We know the Portia-Das scene was pre-wipe because Android (and Two) had forgotten it! It's the activity that the alt-universe Android alluded to in 2x08 and which Two and Five discussed in 2x10. Five said, "It was you. You made her this way. You took an obsolete model with no empathy emulators or emotional subroutines, and you tried to make her more human."

I found it very gratifying when Das called Android "just a machine" and Portia contradicted her.

I don't know why the upgrades weren't done before Portia left Sanctuary, but if what Ryo said in 2x12 about finding Android on Lyra-9 was accurate, then perhaps there was a hitch and Portia and Android were separated for a time?

Edited August 7, 2017 by DEM

[Eulipian 5k]

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Now I wonder if her and Two will have a few poinient and/or awkward conversations about Irina and Rebecca/Portia.

It may be a different awkward for Android because she's moved on and thinks she "hit it off" with Victor. Two had already been hitting and re-hitting it off and on with Three and One . Portia/Irina "ship" should be retired after so many mind wipes.

[MissLucas]

3 hours ago, DEM said:

I don't know why the upgrades weren't done before Portia left Sanctuary, but if what Ryo said in 2x12 about finding Android on Lyra-9 was accurate, then perhaps there was a hitch and Portia and Android were separated for a time?

Wow, I had completely forgotten about that - thanks for bringing it up again. Here's what Ryo said:

Quote

You've come a long way, Android, from the factory set utility model we purchased back on Lyra-9. Back then, you were a machine no different than any other piece of technology. But now, you're so much more.

How so?

Your capacity for emotional response was no accident.

Yes. I've discovered an emotive subroutine was uploaded into my neural matrix. I've concluded that Two was responsible.

Portia, yes. With the help of Das Er, Five. It was the act of making you whole that brought the two of them together. Changed a lot of things on this ship. For the better.

It really looks as if Rebecca and Sukie were separated for a while after leaving Sanctuary. It does raise another question though: where was Ryo during the fight on the Raza about bringing the Android on-board? Since we only saw Boone of the original six sitting at the table and waiting for the winner (he!) I had assumed that Ryo was not on board yet. So where was he? Meditating in his quarters?

It may not matter that much - more important is probably the info that apparently Rebecca and Sukie separated for a while . And I guess Rebecca turned into Portia during that time - maybe the circumstances separating them played a part in her transformation as well.

[Eulipian 5k]

ZP is really giving BSG's #6 a run for her money at playing androids. Android's head never moves when she's speaking,  but as Dr Shaw she emphasizes the tilting and moving of the head in a very "British" way to convey .authority.

Will we get a vote on the Suki/ Android name thing? It seems so lame to call a beloved companion, pet, "Dog" or "Cat" instead of a unique name. Doesn't self awareness imply a unique identity? Android means machine; Suki is a person. (Sookie looks like Sister Wookie, thumbs down on that spelling).

[MissLucas]

I dunno - I think it's too late for a name-swap. It's also weird to refer to people (and uhm... whatever Two is) by numbers yet here we are. The only one who made the transition from number to real name is Ryo and that's for good reasons. But I have to admit that I'm feeling biased. Sukie/Suki etc. will always remind me of Gilmore Girls Sookie (no matter how it's spelled), a delightful character who was also very much into cooking.

[2727]

The various names tickle me because they identify specific timelines for each character such that viewers immediately know the differences between Emily/Das/Five or Rebecca/Portia/Two. In that respect it's easy shorthand to refer to pre and post wipe Sukie vs Android, now that we know more of her background.

We might even get alt-Rebecca at some point, along with alt-Portia. (Although I often lose the thread of alternative timeline/time travel plots and count on you all to set me straight.)

The downside of multiple timeline names is that it's more difficult for new viewers to start watching now.

Edited August 8, 2017 by 2727

[Clanstarling]

4 hours ago, 2727 said:

The various names tickle me because they identify specific timelines for each character such that viewers immediately know the differences between Emily/Das/Five or Rebecca/Portia/Two. In that respect it's more easy shorthand to refer to pre and post wipe Sukie vs Android, now that we know more of her background.

See, now until you spelled out Emily/Das/Five - I'd totally forgotten who "Das" was, and was trying to place the character when it was mentioned earlier in the forum. The others I can pretty well keep track of, though I still think of them by their numbers.

[Hanahope]

Two should use her newfound info about Dr. Shaw against the other Portia (and call her Rebecca) 

[Joseph Mallozzi]

On 8/5/2017 at 3:01 PM, solea said:

Confused as to when Two, originally Rebecca, became Portia Lin. 

Presumably when she embarked on her criminal career.

[Loandbehold]

On 8/5/2017 at 6:01 PM, solea said:

Confused as to when Two, originally Rebecca, became Portia Lin. 

 

55 minutes ago, Joseph Mallozzi said:

Presumably when she embarked on her criminal career.

Foreshadowing? Or should I say, Preshadowing?

[xaxat]

It's fun having have someone posting here who doesn't have to engage in speculation.

[KaleyFirefly]

On 8/5/2017 at 3:37 PM, Shades of Scarlet said:

Fantastic episode; in my view one of the entire series' best given the completely unexpected twists and excellent writing and performances.  Zoie Palmer did a hell of a nice accent there - sounded like it was supposed to be Australian. 

Apparently it's her real accent -- Zoie Palmer was born in England, to British & Irish parents, then grew up in Canada.

[Shades of Scarlet]

9 hours ago, KaleyFirefly said:

Apparently it's her real accent -- Zoie Palmer was born in England, to British & Irish parents, then grew up in Canada.

Not sure - in media appearances she speaks without an accent.

[KaleyFirefly]

15 hours ago, Shades of Scarlet said:

Not sure - in media appearances she speaks without an accent.

You're right! I watched an interview with her. No British accent. She sounds Canadian or American.

Edited August 11, 2017 by KaleyFirefly

[Wouter]

Very late reply this time; got distracted by real life (tm) and Game of Thrones.

Anyway, very interesting episode with a couple of twists I didn't at all see coming!

On 5/8/2017 at 4:54 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Enjoyed all of Android's "lost memories", including Ryo introducing her to hot chocolate and how Rebecca ended up becoming the leader of the Razi.  Which naturally including her killing a bunch of fools who dared tried to toss her off the ship.  All while Marcus just casually ate his food.  Yeah, Marcus is totally someone who would just not get involved, and back whoever wins!

The line of the episode for me (Boone right after the fight): "I was rooting for you".

On 5/8/2017 at 4:14 PM, DEM said:

This disconnect is interesting. I mean, there have been hints since at least 1x02 (I think) that Android was connected to Two more so than to the ship, and although we've seen their bond over the series, they tend to keep each other at a certain distance. It's almost as if, despite all the memory wipes, they both know there are things they don't want to deal with.

One thing that I don't understand: why was the Android "boxed" in the pilot episode, when the final flashback of this episode showed her to be well-liked by at least Ryo and Portia, at the time. There didn't seem to be any malfunction, and keeping the Android active when the rest of the crew is asleep seems to be the obvious move. Controlling the ship is her main job, and the alarm sirens and damage in the pilot episode shows it's not an unnecessary luxury, for the Raza at least.

Maybe five and/or six disabled and boxed her right before they went into stasis? If so, it wouldn't be the last time...

On 6/8/2017 at 1:13 AM, MissLucas said:

Well, that was quite the flashback overload!!! Great to see some long lingering questions answered like Two's connection to the Android. Also finally answered: what had happened to the two Raza crew members Not-Calchek had mentioned at the beginning of this season. And I think we also did not know before this episode that the Raza had planned to go after Rook once the mining colony job was done and that was what caused Portia and Ryo's decision to kill off Griffin. (Did we already know that? I don't think so.)

Got a bit teary during the Android/Six and Android/Three conversations.

Ryo being nice to the Android did not really surprise me. He was also casting the deciding vote to keep Five on-board instead of air-locking her. And nice detail to have Portia apologizing to Emily during the Android modification.

One thing I did not really understand was how or rather why Sookie was created. Caretaker Dude claimed it was to give Rebecca a substitute for Doctor Shaw. But once they were alone Two and Doctor Shaw talked about Sookie being created as a vessel for Doctor Shaw's consciousness - yet she couldn't go through with it due to ethical concerns. Yet in this episode she has no problems doing the same for Sara. What changed? I suppose the whole shady business with Victor has got something to do with it.

The name in the not-prophecy was Carina not Irina - though Doctor Shaw was part of it:

Now that several items of my 'need answers'-list have been cleared off this one got the top-spot: How did Rebecca become Portia?

Seconded. I thought we had it pegged: after escaping from Dwarf Star after being mistreated, Rebecca knew no better while she was also being hunted both by Dwarf Star (as their property, as well as the killer of much of the personnel of an important facility) and the GA (as illegal tech). In order to survive, she had to turn to crime and in the same way that a mistreated dog may turn mean, so did she.

But now, we learn she actually lived nicely in a protected facility, well before she started her criminal career. What drove her to become Portia is entirely unclear. This does bug me a bit about this episode.

This is assuming that this version of events is actually 100% true. This episode played more than once with the concept of unreliable (or lying) narrators: with the two different accounts of why "Suki" was created and with the account of what happened in the incident on the space station in the opening of the episode. Which makes me wonder if the version of events, as narrated by Chase, is not a "sanitized" version. The end of the episode shows that dr. Shaw and co weren't being entirely honest to "Suki" nor to "Rebecca".

Ryo could indeed be nice, just like he was to Five. A pity that they turned on each other.

Somewhat surprising: the Raza had another captain before Portia. Two is so attached to the ship I thought there was a closer tie (like she has with the Android), but maybe it's simply the need for her to be constantly on the move to elude or evade her many enemies. He and his fellow mercenary/criminal were no match for Two, and Boone probably saw it coming even if he didn't risk it one way or another.

Interestingly, they said the GA was in Rook's pockets. And now the Android knows that Dwarf Star is planning an invasion of some kind - I'm guessing this involved alien life forms, possibly that green goo from season 2. Rebecca was build as a carrier body (presumably for the aliens, or whatever it is), not unlike "Suki". Hmmm. 

 

On 7/8/2017 at 5:51 AM, tennisgurl said:

I didn't expect the Ryo cameo! He did always like the Android, so I'm not that surprised that he was nice to her even when he was Ryo the first time. Also, Portia had a nice moment with pre-mind wiped Five, and Five seemed a little less quirky than Five is. I always like getting little glimpses of the crew in their pre mind wipe days. Also, Marcuse's reaction to Portia killing two guys and taking over the ship? "Meh, its dinner time". Sounds about right.

Poor Android, that's a pretty intense identity crisis. At least the crew has her back. I straight up "awwwwwwwed" when Three was showing her how to drink and apologized for how he treated her and other Androids, and then she said how she liked how he speaks his mind, and that they have that in common. Now I wonder if her and Two will have a few poinient and/or awkward conversations about Irina and Rebecca/Portia.

I would like a conversation between Two and Android, like they haven't had anymore since the Android called out Two on keeping secrets from the rest of the crew (1x08).

The flashbacks were very nice. The one with Portia and Das stood out to me: there was already a lot of Two in her behaviour and mannerisms, which may indicate that Emily/Das/Five was a greater influence, than the mindwipe, in Portia becoming Two.

 

On 8/8/2017 at 5:44 PM, Joseph Mallozzi said:

Presumably when she embarked on her criminal career.

A delightfully unhelpful answer ;)

 

The GA behaviour in this episode was a bit puzzling though: they apparently had two hidden transmitters, but they decided to betray the first of those by taking potshots at the Raza whenever it dropped out of FTL (reminds me of early BSG) and then stopped this when only the second transmitter was still active. Surely they could simply have waited till the Raza reached its destination, if being lead to that place was their intention from the beginning?

And while they may justifiably have concentrated on the facility when they arrived in force to attack it, totally ignoring the Raza even when the Marauder returned from the surface (surely the GA couldn't know who and what was on it) seems weird, unless they hadn't detected it at all.

I'm guessing that counting on Sara will turn out badly for the Android liberation front ;)

[DEM]

7 hours ago, Wouter said:

This is assuming that this version of events is actually 100% true.

As I was falling asleep last night I suddenly had the idea that whatever tipped Portia over the edge -- again -- had to do with Dr Shaw (a betrayal?).  Like you, I'm confused about Two's psychology. Every time I think I have a tentative handle on it and/or am prepared to "just go with it", new information wrecks my mental model.  I had accepted the idea that Rebecca's by turns sterile and abusive "upbringing" in a lab led straight to Portia. That made sense. However, it didn't explain how, even with a memory wipe, she'd turn into someone with a strong moral compass (and sometimes be compassionate to the point of tears). So, I'd chalked that part up to "a wizard did it": Rebecca's base design included fully mature personality and empathy and moral reasoning. Although that wouldn't leave as much to work with from a character development perspective, she could still be predisposed to psychopathy and violence when wronged, and it fit the data.

But now Dr Shaw comes along and, although her existence shores up the empathy & adult relations bits, it re-opens the question of why Rebecca reverted to full-time psychopathy. We could surmise that the mere loss of Shaw turned Rebecca back because Rebecca's personality was always shaky, but I guess there's more to the story.

 

7 hours ago, Wouter said:

The one with Portia and Das stood out to me: there was already a lot of Two in her behaviour and mannerisms, which may indicate that Emily/Das/Five was a greater influence, than the mindwipe, in Portia becoming Two.

If we accept that Rebecca always had the capability of being a nice person, then Das at best reminded her that not all humans are terrible, so Portia was nice in that moment. That leaves Two's agency as a character intact, and it doesn't further contort an already stretched timeline. I know Ryo said stuff in 2x12, but no, just no. (Plus, Ryo's next moves were back-to-back mass murders, so his words need a lot of salt.)

Edited August 14, 2017 by DEM

[Wouter]

6 hours ago, DEM said:

As I was falling asleep last night I suddenly had the idea that whatever tipped Portia over the edge -- again -- had to do with Dr Shaw (a betrayal?).  Like you, I'm confused about Two's psychology. Every time I think I have a tentative handle on it and/or am prepared to "just go with it", new information wrecks my mental model.  I had accepted the idea that Rebecca's by turns sterile and abusive "upbringing" in a lab led straight to Portia. That made sense. However, it didn't explain how, even with a memory wipe, she'd turn into someone with a strong moral compass (and sometimes be compassionate to the point of tears). So, I'd chalked that part up to "a wizard did it": Rebecca's base design included fully mature personality and empathy and moral reasoning. Although that wouldn't leave as much to work with from a character development perspective, she could still be predisposed to psychopathy and violence when wronged, and it fit the data.

But now Dr Shaw comes along and, although her existence shores up the empathy & adult relations bits, it re-opens the question of why Rebecca reverted to full-time psychopathy. We could surmise that the mere loss of Shaw turned Rebecca back because Rebecca's personality was always shaky, but I guess there's more to the story.

 

If we accept that Rebecca always had the capability of being a nice person, then Das at best reminded her that not all humans are terrible, so Portia was nice in that moment. That leaves Two's agency as a character intact, and it doesn't further contort an already stretched timeline. I know Ryo said stuff in 2x12, but no, just no. (Plus, Ryo's next moves were back-to-back mass murders, so his words need a lot of salt.)

I'm not sure if the Rebecca, as depicted in this episode (during her time with Shaw), had really gone over the edge in the way that Portia later did. What we know she did is escape and kill pretty much everyone on her way out, but then part of this should have been necessary in order to escape anyway and her hatred for the personnel that mistreated her is understandable. Two did much the same when she again escaped a Dwarf Star facility at the end of S1. Even with her present mental make-up (as Two), she has always been capable of very violent behaviour, though in a context where she is threatened or greatly provoked (like in the casino, early S1, the first time we really saw how violent she can be). Yet Two is also capable of empathy and kindness, and according to this episode, so was Rebecca after her escape and before she left Shaw's secret installation.

The traumatic experience of Rebecca, combined with her martial and mental capabilities and the need and will to survive in spite of being illegal tech, could easily have led to the nihilistic Portia. The selective mindwipe in stasis could have washed away the trauma and the nihilistic attitude.

But the new info puts all that in grave doubt; post-escape Rebecca didn't seem to be greatly traumatised and had no trouble surviving. And on the other hand, we see how Portia, shortly before the mindwipe, was already different from the alt-universe (which seems like a charicature in comparison) version. Portia is nice to Five and apologises to her (earlier she wanted to space or sell her, remember?), and right before the stasis there is the discussion about attacking Rook's facility.

The latter seems to encompass Rebecca, Portia and Two at once: if she is wrong they will kill a few 100 scientists, no biggy (as Portia would not care, Rebecca would cheer and Two is capable of doing if sufficiently provoked) and if she's right, they will stop an invasion (and save the world?). The latter seems to be more up Two's alley, Portia would only care to the extent those invaders might be a threat to herself. All facets of her personality would want to disrupt Rook's plans, though.

[DEM]

On 8/14/2017 at 2:12 PM, Wouter said:

I'm not sure if the Rebecca, as depicted in this episode (during her time with Shaw), had really gone over the edge in the way that Portia later did.

I'm not sure I agree. I don't think it was absolutely necessary for Rebecca to kill every last thing that moved in order to escape Dwarf Star, and mass slaughter is generally, well, shocking.  She hadn't gone over the edge only in the sense that she went back to being not-homicidal for a while.

For myself, for now, I think Portia is the story of how Rebecca got stuck in dark mode, rather than how she turned. In other words, Two is Rebecca's default personality (generally normal but capable of great violence) while Portia is Dark Mode.

[Wouter]

38 minutes ago, DEM said:

I'm not sure I agree. I don't think it was absolutely necessary for Rebecca to kill every last thing that moved in order to escape Dwarf Star, and mass slaughter is generally, well, shocking.  She hadn't gone over the edge only in the sense that she went back to being not-homicidal for a while.

True, allthough do we know she really killed every last thing that moved (I don't quite remember, was this stated in one of the earlier episodes)? It's hard to imagine she can have been that thorough when her first concern still must have been to escape. I'd imagine she'd kill everyone she encountered, save maybe for the couple of scientists that had shown kindness (there was one featured during the Dwarf Star break-in of S2), but not make a few tours of the entire lab to make sure she didn't miss anybody.

[DEM]

On 8/17/2017 at 0:18 PM, Wouter said:

but not make a few tours of the entire lab to make sure she didn't miss anybody.

from 2x09

ERIC WAVER: When you broke free, you were brutally efficient. .... You killed them all. The research team, technicians, the security personnel, everyone on that station, except me.

[Wouter]

16 hours ago, DEM said:

from 2x09

ERIC WAVER: When you broke free, you were brutally efficient. .... You killed them all. The research team, technicians, the security personnel, everyone on that station, except me.

I had forgotten that line. Quite something, Rebecca ...

[jhlipton]

Since I sometimes have trouble with the names, I built a little chart.  I'll have to update it with what name goes where (when is Five Das and when is she Emily, for example), as well as add Suki (and Irina Shaw?) for the Android:

[Paloma]

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

Since I sometimes have trouble with the names, I built a little chart.

Very helpful, thanks! But I don't remember the name Titch associated with Three--what was that from?

I'm also a bit confused about real names vs. assumed names.  For One, Two, Three, Fix, and Six, are Jace Corso, Rebecca, Marcus Boone, Emily Kolburn, and  Lt. Kal Varrick their real (pre-memory wipe) names, and are Derrick Moss, Portia Lin, Das, and Griffin Jones their assumed names?  Was Four's real name Ryo Tetsuda or Ryo Ishida? I assume that he would have the last name Ishida because he belongs to that house, but at what point did he become Ryo Tetsuda? 

[Loandbehold]

1 hour ago, Paloma said:

Was Four's real name Ryo Tetsuda or Ryo Ishida? I assume that he would have the last name Ishida because he belongs to that house, but at what point did he become Ryo Tetsuda? 

Maybe when he first joined the crew of the Raza (or, now alt crew).