S07.E02: Stormborn

[Dev F]

10 minutes ago, shockermolar said:

{deep sigh} OMG that statue. I literally turned to my teenage son and said, "yes, of COURSE a statue was hand carved by a master artisan to PERFECTLY mimic Ned Stark's features and preside over his bones in the family crypt some time between Theon and the Iron Born KILLING everyone at Winterfell, it being burned down, the Boltons taking it and living there for years, and the Starks re-taking it since the Battle of the Bastards, which apparently happened mere weeks ago in show time. I'm sure getting that sculptor there was priority #1 for absolutely NO ONE THAT HAS BEEN THERE SINCE HE DIED!"  Yes. I was yelling. Stupid makes me yell.

I think we're meant to assume that Ned was interred before Theon took Winterfell. Littlefinger delivers the bones in season 2, episode 4, and Theon's attack doesn't take place until episode 6. It seems like a tight squeeze, though; as usual, we'd have to go back and check the intersection points between storylines to see if there's room for the bones to arrive and Bran to commission a statue, and I wouldn't be surprised if the writers effed up the timing.

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, benteen said:

Jon has never made a strong case against fighting the White Walkers, at least verbally.  He kind of just expects everyone to just do it. 

Assuming anyone who hears him say an army of the dead is marching towards them, killing everyone/thing in its path and turning them into further dead forces looking to do the same believes he is telling the truth, what else should he need to say?  What other proof can he offer beyond telling them what he's seen and experienced?

For those who believe him, what else can they do except attempt to escape or listen to what he can tell them about how to fight back?

[Constantinople]

To summarize

The first part of Tyrion's war plan failed totally

No one, including Varys, had any idea that Euron had visited King's Landing or was in the area. Nor did anyone know that Jon Snow was King of the North until Melisandre turned up.

Yara was caught by complete surprise while sailing to Dorne.

And this is Dany's A team

[Katsullivan]

15 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Quote

I just hope when the time comes, people will remember that Jon is the "grandson of the Mad King".

I think I understand now.  Any "criticism" of Dany, real or perceived, must be met with criticism designed to take out another character.  

No, you don't understand. I meant that as much as people in the show worry about Dany being the Mad King's Daughter, I hope when the time comes (and Jon's parentage will be revealed), they will be as worried about Jon being the Mad King's Grandson.

Obviously the audience already knows that Jon is the grandson of the Mad King. 

(And yes, I am aware that this is not brought up as often as Dany's parentage. The reasons are so obvious to me that I'm not even going to bother debating them).

I tidily snipped out the rest of your comments because I obviously had nothing to say to or about them. 

15 minutes ago, Edith said:

But those slavers were punished for a specific crime, the crucifixion of the children not because they were slavers. So in that case and for that crime not all of them were responsible.

She punished the Masters who decided to crucify the children as a warning to her. So she was punishing those that were responsible for that action. That some of the Masters voted against it doesn't absolve them of the decision. That's like arguing that a certain President isn't your President because you didn't vote for him or that you're not responsible for, or benefit from the society he governs. (Much as I'd like to say that). 

To be blunt, I don't think Dany crucifying every single slaver and noble in Mereen would have been going too far. And I think the show ultimately proves that right - that she didn't go far enough. Anyway, I don't care for the slavery apologia of that season and this discussion so I'm bowing out now.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Katsullivan

[Blonde Gator]

7 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

That's pretty typical in royal marriages throughout history. Almost none were purely for romantic reasons and the strategic value of the union was always the primary consideration. If you were very, very lucky, you would grow to love your partner in a genuine way (the way Queen Victoria loved Albert). But for the most part, marriages were about two things - forging alliances and perpetuating the bloodlines. Women had even less say in who the were married to, and their happiness was almost never considered in any meaningful way. Being married as a royal or a nobel was about fulfilling your duty, not your personal satisfaction. History is chock full of royal spouses that had politically successful marriages and who absolutely detested one another. Marrying purely for love is a fairly modern convention.

Exactly.  I just find it frustrating that there are so many pro-(21st Century style) Sansa advocates, totally bent on her having a happy ending, including her being able to pick her own future.   

It's just not happening.  Sansa is no Dany, nor Brienne for that matter. 

[FnkyChkn34]

3 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Being a ruler often means having to make decisions that are difficult and might make people unhappy. With the exception of Jon, no one seeking that kind of power in this universe are completely altruistic. Dany is seeing to regain the throne that she feels is hers by right. Cersi wants it as a big "fuck you" to the universe. Sansa wants it because she feels it is her right (as the true born Stark) and to protect herself. Right now, Jon is the only one who holds that kind of power and it isn't about himself at all. For Jon, being king continues to boil down to preparing the North (and the rest of the seven kingdoms) for the coming war against the WW. And here's the kicker... if Jon thought that Sansa being QITN would facilitate that effort better than him being in charge, he would quit in a heartbeat. 

One thing that I really picked up on during his discussion with the northern lords about meeting with Dany was his complete lack of royal airs. He wasn't sitting up at the high table (his seat of power) dictating down to them. He stood on the floor amongst them, as one of them, listened to their concerns and explained why he was making the decision that he was. He wasn't dictating, but treating them respectfully. It was a marked contrast to Cersi (who is always sitting on her throne) and even Dany in a lot of ways. 

Completely agree, and he even then handed the messages from the ravens to his bannermen for them to read themselves.  Would anyone else actually pass around the piece of paper itself?  Of course not.

Edited July 25, 2017 by FnkyChkn34

[GrailKing]

22 hours ago, Neurochick said:

weren't blonde like most of the women in this show .  

Missandei, Mellesndre, Sansa,Arya,Shae,Margary,Catlyn, Lysa, Roz, Ygritte, Karzi, Gilly, Lady Crane, Elaria, Tyenne,Nym,Obarra,Osha, Yara, Selyse, Shireen, Alys Karstark,Lady Mormont Lady Olena.

Cersei,Dany, Brienne, Myrcella and Lolly Stokewood

 

I think the blonde society should riot for equality.

Edited July 26, 2017 by GrailKing
I totally forgot Myrcella. : (

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Kit Harington keeps playing Jon like some kind of kicked puppy. Come on Jon! Be more forceful! People listen to wolves, not puppies. If he had Ghost next to him, like Robb had Grey Wind, maybe he would not face a 'revolt'. Ghost can bite off two of Sansa's fingers and she would finally shut up.

Anyways, I am looking forward to Jon facing off with 'I was born to rule' Dany next episode!

I don't really see that, but even if he does, he kind of has a right to.  Until recently, Jon was looked down upon for his entire life - he's a bastard, he doesn't fit in, he would inherit nothing, Cat hated him, etc., etc.  Then at the Wall, he gets some respect only to be betrayed and murdered by his own men.  Hasn't he been a kicked puppy?  But he's coming in to his own now, and I see the wolf.  That started when he punished his attackers and left the Wall.  I predict that he'll go toe to toe with Dany just fine.

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Yes, I know all of that and I didn't care for Ned's response either.

Just out of curiosity; why?

To me it was a correct answer to the situation Sansa was put into. 

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

No, you don't understand. I meant that as much as people in the show worry about Dany being the Mad King's Daughter, I hope when the time comes (and Jon's parentage will be revealed), they will be as worried about Jon being the Mad King's Grandson.

 

You're right, I don't understand.

Furthermore, I think when the truth of Jon's parentage becomes widely known to the citizens of Westeros they will have many other actual deeds of Jon himself to discuss before they have time to even think to speculate whether he may have picked up grandpa's proclivities.  Depending on how things pan out it may also be a moot point by the time it becomes widely known.

[Constantinople]

Given the scorn so many people in Westeros feel towards Dorne and the Dornish, I'm not sure an army of Dorishmen besieging the capital is much of a PR improvement over using the Unsullied and the Dothraki.

[Blonde Gator]

10 minutes ago, Dev F said:

I think we're meant to assume that Ned was interred before Theon took Winterfell. Littlefinger delivers the bones in season 2, episode 4, and Theon's attack doesn't take place until episode 6. It seems like a tight squeeze, though; as usual, we'd have to go back and check the intersection points between storylines to see if there's room for the bones to arrive and Bran to commission a statue, and I wouldn't be surprised if the writers effed up the timing.

We're not fully aware of all of the Stark burial rituals.  We do know that historically, it was the Kings of Winter and the Lords of Winterfell who were buried in the tombs, with life-like effigies, and a sword.  Ned buried Lyanna there, even though she was neither a KOW or Lord of Winterfell.  Jon followed on w/putting sRickard in the tombs.  Perhaps since Ned had already changed things up, Ned went so far as to have his own statue made......and it was back there hidden in the vaults.   I suspect there is a reserved spot for Jon in the tombs as well, which may indicate to him some sort of proof of his importance, and legitimacy, in House Stark (trueborn son of Lyanna, rather than a bastard).  And some sort of proof of Jon's heritage may also be hidden in Lyanna's tomb.  Jon has several dreams of the Winterfell tombs in the books, he's drawn there, and doesn't know why.   I believe the tombs in Winterfell are central to the end-game story.  Bran the Builder laid them out, and supposedly they are even larger than Winterfell, which is huge.

But the OP's original point about Ned's statue just showing up was a good one, it didn't occur to me to even think about it before I read that post.

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

Other than a 16 yr. old Tyrion, who married Tysha (where do whores go?.....totally omitted in the show, and one of Tyrion's main sources of bitterness against his father)....there is no one else I can think of in ASOIAF who has married "for love".  It's not a "thing" in Westeros.   All marriages are arranged marriages.

We know of a few love marriages in Westeros in the books, even if those unions or the nature of those unions are not spelled out in the show. Tywin and Joanna married for love, according to GRRM. So did Jorah and Lynesse. Doran and Mellario also married for love. Lysa married Petyr for love. Aegon V and his children all decided to marry for love. Asha thinks that she would marry Qarl in a heartbeat were it not for his low birth. Apart from Tywin and Joanna, some of these examples are not ringing endorsements of the benefits of a love match given how those unions turned out, but I think GRRM has said something along the lines of marriage in Westeros being a crapshoot regardless of how that marriage came about. Certainly Westeros in the books is full of unhappy, dysfunctional or even abusive marriages. 

 

Quote

Tyrion & Sansa's wedding was forced on both parties.  But Tyrion, being a pragmatist, KNEW in his little black heart that Sansa was a PROPER wife for him, and he actually felt somewhat honored to be married to such a beautiful, innocent, young girl, with an impeccable pedigree.

In the books, yes, but I saw no indication of that in the show; judging from his conversation with Bronn, he thought the whole thing was one big headache that would fuck up his relationship with Shae. The line to Shae in 4x02 about how Sansa was a proper wife for him and was fit to bear his children (something he's never cared about) was the verbal equivalent of Arya chucking rocks at Nymeria to drive her away for her own safety. He didn't mean any of it, and Sansa being a "proper" wife never seemed to influence him one way or another.

 

Quote

Tyrion has stopped his whoring ways because he still feels married to Sansa

I doubt it. I'm not sure why he turned down the prostitute in Season 5, but there's nothing on the face of the dialogue to suggest that a sense of obligation arising from his marriage had anything to do with it. It was his idea to find a brothel in the first place, after all. A simpler, more logical explanation to me is that his experiences with Shae soured him on prostitutes. Not to mention that the show writers are not particularly subtle when they wish to convey such things.

Also, Tyrion hasn't mentioned Sansa once since Season 4. There's no indication on screen that he thinks about her one way or another. I also doubt he'd be making cow eyes at Dany as he did in 6x10 if he took his marriage to Sansa as seriously as you're suggesting.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Eyes High

[YaddaYadda]

31 minutes ago, benteen said:

Jon has been getting stronger as king but I agree, stop with the kicked puppy look.  Book Jon might have made some bad choices as Night's Watch commander but he was no kicked puppy.

I think it's his sad looking map. He's probably wondering why he can't have his own painted table or painted floor where he can stand and stare past the Wall. His toys aren't as cool as Dany's or Cersei's. 

26 minutes ago, benteen said:

Jon has never made a strong case against fighting the White Walkers, at least verbally.  He kind of just expects everyone to just do it. 

If he did make a strong case, they either left it in the editing room or in the Forbidden City of Offscreen, where you and I are sadly not invited. I would have so wanted to see that conversation between Jon and his northern lords. I guess we'll have a variation of that this coming Sunday when he arrives on Dragonstone? They might be keeping that conversation for then.

Edited July 25, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Katsullivan]

8 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Furthermore, I think when the truth of Jon's parentage becomes widely known to the citizens of Westeros they will have many other actual deeds of Jon himself to discuss before they have time to even think to speculate whether he may have picked up grandpa's proclivities.  Depending on how things pan out it may also be a moot point by the time it becomes widely known.

That's my point. Jon, a man, gets to have his deeds define his character (and the ones that don't match how people prefer to see him will be excused away) while Dany, a woman, is defined first by her blood and her deeds are judged through that filter. 

The fact that it's actually consistent with how real life works - cough-recent-events-cough - doesn't  make it any less misogynistic or frustrating.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Katsullivan

[Katsullivan]

And as I just wrote something similar to this on another thread, I'd like to make a point about the inherent misogyny of labeling women crazy/mad/hysterical when they react or behave the same way that men are usually praised or at least "understood" for. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Katsullivan

[Hana Chan]

10 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Jon, a man, gets to have his deeds define his character (and the ones that don't match how people prefer to see him will be excused away) while Dany, a woman, is defined first by her blood and her deeds are judged through that filter. 

Actually for most of Jon's life, his blood was the filter that everything about him was viewed through. He was "Ned Stark's bastard" or the "Bastard of Winterfell". Even at the wall, the mocking title "Lord Snow" was to point out of the fact that he was illegitimate and pretty much the only place where he could have any kind of status was among the Nights Watch. Even when Tyrion was explaining how he knew Jon to Dany, the first thing that came to his mind was "Ned Stark's bastard". 

And his illegitimacy certainly gets pointed out to Sansa by Littlefinger at every opportunity in an effort to undercut Jon's authority and to try to turn Sansa against him since Jon was "a bastard born in the south" while Sansa was Ned Stark's "true born daughter". It seems that the only people who see Jon first and don't give a fig about whether or not his parents were married are the Wildlings.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

Yet again we remind you that this topic is to discuss the episode only.

To discuss character arcs/motivations etc, past and/or future, please take it to an appropriate topic.

Lastly, a reminder to keep the tone civil, no matter which topic you're posting in.

Thank you.

[Oscirus]

43 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

To summarize

The first part of Tyrion's war plan failed totally

No one, including Varys, had any idea that Euron had visited King's Landing or was in the area. Nor did anyone know that Jon Snow was King of the North until Melisandre turned up.

Yara was caught by complete surprise while sailing to Dorne.

And this is Dany's A team

To be fair if the iron born can't even get out of the harbor without losing a fight then they were doomed to fail even if they knew that Euron and co. were in the area. But yea, Dany nees a legit general and not someone with two wars to his name running the war strategy. Also Varys needs to up his game because Qyburn's making him look silly at this point.

[screamin]

1 hour ago, shockermolar said:

{deep sigh} OMG that statue. I literally turned to my teenage son and said, "yes, of COURSE a statue was hand carved by a master artisan to PERFECTLY mimic Ned Stark's features and preside over his bones in the family crypt some time between Theon and the Iron Born KILLING everyone at Winterfell, it being burned down, the Boltons taking it and living there for years, and the Starks re-taking it since the Battle of the Bastards, which apparently happened mere weeks ago in show time. I'm sure getting that sculptor there was priority #1 for absolutely NO ONE THAT HAS BEEN THERE SINCE HE DIED!"  Yes. I was yelling. Stupid makes me yell.

I fanwanked it that a devoted sculptor started work as soon as he heard about Ned's death, and worked on it ever since (with necessary interruptions for homestead burnings and whatnot) because he just loved Ned as his lord THAT much, and had faith that his bones would be brought home eventually, or if not, at least he should have a proper memorial. Farfetched, but possible.

Edited July 25, 2017 by screamin

[Hana Chan]

Dany's got a big problem, and that is how to conquer Westeros and have there be something left to rule afterwards. Like it or not, it's going to be a bloody mess. And the odds are that it's not going to endear her to a populace that has already been torn apart for years by war. Complicating things further is that Dany is going to be seen as a foreigner, not a returning daughter of Westeros. No matter how she cuts it, she's going to be painted as an invader, just as her ancestors were. And enough people remember Dany's father to have her automatically be suspect.

As bad as Cersi is (and I don't think anyone is turning handsprings over her being queen), she gets to portray herself as the defender of Westeros. By forming an alliance with Jon, who has a reputation for defending Westeros from his time as Lord Commander at the Wall, she can possibly blunt that just a bit.

[Blonde Gator]

9 minutes ago, doram said:

This is where the show dilutes to the books for 21st century sensibilities because no one reacts to that news the way they ought to it "bastard" was really the dirty word it was in Westeros. Dany won't be saying "what a man" Jon was, she'd be double-taking at how a bastard managed to be King and how she's even supposed to believe in his legitimacy. Cersei won't be calling him to bend the knee as if he was a legitimate ruler. She'd be asking him to surrender for the crime of executing the Crown's appointed Warden.

In the books, bastard means potential liar and traitor. The Blackfish heard Jon was Lord Commander and he immediately assumed that he'd tricked himself into that position. Put it this way - Ramsay Snow is exactly how people perceive all bastards can potentially be. Even the small folk distrust them.

The only person on the show who treats Jon with bias is Catelyn and it's depicted as pettiness and unfair, not based on centuries old 'Bible school' superstition. 

If Dany's court treated Jon the way the North treated the news of Dany, it would be with as much knee-deep suspicion and distrust just because he's a bastard, as she gets for being a Targaryen. ( Remember Blackfyre and Bloodraven and Bittersteel). Like I said 21st century prejudices but it's conveniently left the female protagonist with the burden of her blood while relieving the male protagonist of the burden of his.

Spot on.  This pic is from the official GOT site.  "Bastard" is used as a taunt, repeatedly.  Remember Tyrion, in Episode 1?  "Use it as your armor, that way it has no power". 

EDITED TO ADD the Official GOT site, for those of you who haven't stumbled across it yet.  Lots of cool stuff to see there re: each episode:  http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/

Edited July 25, 2017 by Blonde Gator

[Tikichick]

5 minutes ago, doram said:

This is where the show dilutes to the books for 21st century sensibilities because no one reacts to that news the way they ought to it "bastard" was really the dirty word it was in Westeros. Dany won't be saying "what a man" Jon was, she'd be double-taking at how a bastard managed to be King and how she's even supposed to believe in his legitimacy. Cersei won't be calling him to bend the knee as if he was a legitimate ruler. She'd be asking him to surrender for the crime of executing the Crown's appointed Warden.

In the books, bastard means potential liar and traitor. The Blackfish heard Jon was Lord Commander and he immediately assumed that he'd tricked himself into that position. Put it this way - Ramsay Snow is exactly how people perceive all bastards can potentially be. Even the small folk distrust them.

The only person on the show who treats Jon with bias is Catelyn and it's depicted as pettiness and unfair, not based on centuries old 'Bible school' superstition. 

If Dany's court treated Jon the way the North treated the news of Dany, it would be with as much knee-deep suspicion and distrust just because he's a bastard, as she gets for being a Targaryen. ( Remember Blackfyre and Bloodraven and Bittersteel). Like I said 21st century prejudices but it's conveniently left the female protagonist with the burden of her blood while relieving the male protagonist of the burden of his.

Isn't that rather conveniently omitting the fact that Westeros really didn't put up much of a fuss about the second successive bastard assuming the Iron Throne, despite it definitely being widely known by the time Tommen is crowned?  The High Sparrow no doubt had intentions on addressing that when he felt the time was right.  It seemed he didn't feel much urgency in the matter when he could simply manipulate the weak figurehead without fear of reprisals. 

[GrailKing]

18 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Honestly, you don't want Jon to listen to Sansa, you want Jon to do what Sansa wants. 

I just wanted to add,because a simple no from me is a bit lacking.

I think he still needed a bit more, he still blindsided her with the leaving WF and the North in good hands, this to me means he isn't consulting her on a BIG decision like that, she was scared as hell when she heard that and even more pointed out with her nervous look to LF.

I also said last week I think Sansa's actions was her setting up LF and keeping Jon out of the loop for his protection.

It may also be as I said they ironed things out and she confided in Jon about her plan and now they both are setting him up.

If so! Sansa totally sold that shit of feigning surprise.

But I think it's real with that small smile on Brienne's face, she understood what Jon is doing, teaching Sansa to lead, and trusting her with his life and the North.

This is her second Kobayashi Maru test, I hope she passes.

[Oscirus]

Im a bit sad that they've run out of things for little finger to do. I get that he loves Starks women but this is taking it to a whole other level. Littlefinger used to be the best schemer on the show. What the hell did you do to him D and D?

[Heckler52317]

In my head the Sand Snakes are skilled assassins- accustomed to working in concert against a disadvantaged target- and gaining the dagger/spear/whip synergy you can only have in a fantasy setting. In the pitched battle they did ok against the rank and file Greyjoy troops, but separately they had no chance against mighty Euron. All together against him outside a tavern? Maybe they scratch him down. Speaking of Euron (and I readily admit to being easily entertained)- I loved his crashing in on the boarding device, howling at the moon! And I'll accept his status as the world's greatest pirate allowing the surprise assault. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Heckler52317

[Oscirus]

16 minutes ago, Heckler52317 said:

In my head the Sand Snakes are skilled assassins- accustomed to working in concert against a disadvantaged target- and gaining the dagger/spear/whip synergy you can only have in a fantasy setting. In the pitched battle they did ok against the rank and file Greyjoy troops, but separately they had no chance against mighty Euron. All together against him outside a tavern? Maybe they scratch him down. Speaking of Euron (and I readily admit to being easily entertained)- I loved his crashing in on the boarding device, howling at the moon! And I'll accept his status as the world's greatest pirate allowing the surprise assault. 

Maybe oberon should've taught one of them to use a sword.  I'm guessing he had that planned for his next kid.

[Francie]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

To summarize

The first part of Tyrion's war plan failed totally

No one, including Varys, had any idea that Euron had visited King's Landing or was in the area. Nor did anyone know that Jon Snow was King of the North until Melisandre turned up.

Yara was caught by complete surprise while sailing to Dorne.

And this is Dany's A team

I was struck, watching Daenerys' war counsel, that they had a woman who had committed regicide, a man who had committed patricide and strangled his own former "girlfriend," a woman who had killed a 15-year-old girl all because she didn't like her last name  (and overthrew a country and murdered her lover's brother),  a man responsible for hiring the assassin of another young lady, a woman who plundered the coastline of a neighboring kingdom, and a man who had killed two young boys so that he could pose as a big, tough guy. 

And these are supposed to be the heroes? 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Francie
commas are my friend

[screamin]

4 minutes ago, Francie said:

I was struck, watching Daenerys' war counsel that they had a woman who had committed regicide, a man who had committed patricide and strangled his own former "girlfriend," a woman who had killed a 15-year-old girl all because she didn't like her last name  (and overthrew a country and murdered her lover's brother),  a man responsible for hiring the assassin of another young lady, a woman who plundered the coastline of a neighboring kingdom, and a man who had killed two young boys so that he could pose as a big guy. 

And these are supposed to be the heroes? 

But you should see the other guys.... :)

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, Francie said:

I was struck, watching Daenerys' war counsel that they had a woman who had committed regicide, a man who had committed patricide and strangled his own former "girlfriend," a woman who had killed a 15-year-old girl all because she didn't like her last name  (and overthrew a country and murdered her lover's brother),  a man responsible for hiring the assassin of another young lady, a woman who plundered the coastline of a neighboring kingdom, and a man who had killed two young boys so that he could pose as a big guy. 

And these are supposed to be the heroes? 

To be fair, when dear old dad and your girlfirend are in cahoots to have you publicly murdered, via a knowingly false accusation that you murdered your nephew, then a good strangling and a few bolts through the heart are a pretty reasonable response.

[Oscirus]

14 minutes ago, doram said:

Taking out of context, no one is a hero on this show.

Look at our heroes to the North - The entire North (including Lady Mormont) with their men and armies knew that Ramsay Bolton raped his wife and fed newborns to his dogs and did nothing for months. The wildlings were rapists and murderers. Jon Snow killed his Lord Commander and a 10-year-old child soldier. Sansa fed a man to dogs. Davos supported a man who regularly burnt people to death and killed his brother.

Context is everything.

I was about to say that Bran is the only good man in all of westeros but then I remembered Hodor. So um, Meera?

[Francie]

7 minutes ago, Bannon said:

To be fair, when dear old dad and your girlfirend are in cahoots to have you publicly murdered, via a knowingly false accusation that you murdered your nephew, then a good strangling and a few bolts through the heart are a pretty reasonable response.

Is it really fair to say that Shae was in "cahoots" with Tywin?  We don't know the duress she was under, and whether she was attempting to make the best out of a bad situation. 

That's why I can't outright like Tyrion.  With Pod, he knew that the next time Cersei or whoever approached him about testifying, that they'd be using a stick and not a carrot.  To this day, Tyrion doesn't know whether Bronn or Varys* back-stabbed him and removed Shae from the ship -- or never got her on in the first place.  To this day Tyrion doesn't know whether her life was threatened if she didn't testify and make it look good.  Tyrion was a typical jealous, enraged ex-lover in that instance, killing Shae out of impulse and emotion.  So he gets no passes from me there. 

*Speculation alert -- it was Varys.  He's going to turn out to be a big baddie after all. Though before that reveal, he and Tyrion will be faced with the proposition Daenerys laid out for them in this episode -- tell her to her face that she's loony toons and risk her feeding them to her dragons (bringing this post right back around to the Stormborn episode). 

[Francie]

10 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I was about to say that Bran is the only good man in all of westeros but then I remembered Hodor. So um, Meera?

Brienne. Sam. Gilly. Davos. Jon. Dolorous Edd.

 

And if you take away the incest and Bran tossing, okay and one cousin killing, I'd say Jaime.  I think we're in for a twist or two with him.  Keep an eye on him is all I'm saying. 

[screamin]

Re: the apparently weird calmness with which Northerners take the news of wights and White Walkers - yes, it's due to the fact that none of them have actually SEEN how creepy they are, but also there's a giant magic Wall there built expressly to keep them out, which has WORKED for millenia, and even doomsaying Jon would've conveyed the info that they can't cross it. So likely even the people who believe Jon may not think of them as THAT serious a threat - no more so than wildlings, who actually CAN climb the wall when the dead cannot, but people have been comfortable leaving the Night Watch to worry about wildlings all this time. No doubt they're continuing the same pattern now.

[Eyes High]

17 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I was about to say that Bran is the only good man in all of westeros but then I remembered Hodor. So um, Meera?

Gendry, Hot Pie, Pod and Sam all seem pretty decent, although I seem to recall Hot Pie tried to bully Arya back when they first met. There are lots of kind and decent female characters, too, like Missandei, Gilly, and Sam's female relatives. 

Speaking of Hot Pie, am I the only one who was disappointed we didn't see a wolf bread that was even more elaborate and detailed than the one Pod wound up eating a few seasons ago? I was looking forward to seeing the further evolution of Hot Pie's baking skills.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Eyes High

[Meredith Quill]

5 minutes ago, Francie said:

Is it really fair to say that Shae was in "cahoots" with Tywin?  We don't know the duress she was under, and whether she was attempting to make the best out of a bad situation. 

That's why I can't outright like Tyrion.  With Pod, he knew that the next time Cersei or whoever approached him about testifying, that they'd be using a stick and not a carrot.  To this day, Tyrion doesn't know whether Bronn or Varys* back-stabbed him and removed Shae from the ship -- or never got her on in the first place.  To this day Tyrion doesn't know whether her life was threatened if she didn't testify and make it look good.  Tyrion was a typical jealous, enraged ex-lover in that instance, killing Shae out of impulse and emotion.  So he gets no passes from me there. 

*Speculation alert -- it was Varys.  He's going to turn out to be a big baddie after all. Though before that reveal, he and Tyrion will be faced with the proposition Daenerys laid out for them in this episode -- tell her to her face that she's loony toons and risk her feeding them to her dragons (bringing this post right back around to the Stormborn episode). 

Shae seemed to take her role much further than necessary for someone acting under possible duress, a la "My lion of Lannister", that comment smacked of spite, not fear. A major part of this story is that the majority of characters aren't wholly good or wholly bad. Some are further into the darker side of grey than others, as is typified by Dany's war council.

[Heckler52317]

37 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Maybe oberon should've taught one of them to use a sword.  I'm guessing he had that planned for his next kid.

Especially to be able to swap out the whip for 1v1 combat!  But I really think they were too low 'level' to meet Euron in pitched combat, especially singly. I'm seeing him as a 'boss level encounter' type character, and there was no one in that fleet that was a match for him, especially on his terms and 'turf'

[Bannon]

13 minutes ago, Francie said:

Is it really fair to say that Shae was in "cahoots" with Tywin?  We don't know the duress she was under, and whether she was attempting to make the best out of a bad situation. 

That's why I can't outright like Tyrion.  With Pod, he knew that the next time Cersei or whoever approached him about testifying, that they'd be using a stick and not a carrot.  To this day, Tyrion doesn't know whether Bronn or Varys* back-stabbed him and removed Shae from the ship -- or never got her on in the first place.  To this day Tyrion doesn't know whether her life was threatened if she didn't testify and make it look good.  Tyrion was a typical jealous, enraged ex-lover in that instance, killing Shae out of impulse and emotion.  So he gets no passes from me there. 

*Speculation alert -- it was Varys.  He's going to turn out to be a big baddie after all. Though before that reveal, he and Tyrion will be faced with the proposition Daenerys laid out for them in this episode -- tell her to her face that she's loony toons and risk her feeding them to her dragons (bringing this post right back around to the Stormborn episode). 

Given that The Shaester's first impulse, when she spotted her shorter Lannister lover, in the taller Lannister lover's bed chambers, was to grab a knife, I think it's safe to say she was in cahoots with the taller Lannister lover.

 

I dont like or dislike fictional characters. As a matter of what we have seen, however, I'd say Tywin's killing of his  pops and his former squeeze was justifiable homicide.  

[Bannon]

Eh, the whole sea battle didn't work for me, because A) Euron's fleet was conjured out of thin air, and B) the writers removed Yara's intellect, so as to allow the sudden ship ramming, disturbing the budding sexual relationship between the Ironborn and Dorne nobility. Dumb, sloppy, lazy, writing.  I hope it gets better.

[YaddaYadda]

14 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Gendry, Hot Pie, Pod and Sam all seem pretty decent, although I seem to recall Hot Pie tried to bully Arya back when they first met. 

He did, but he was just a kid, probably frightened of what was going on. And Hot Pie changed as the story went on, or maybe he went back to being the character he was before we met him. We have no idea what he was like before Yoren took him from King's Landing, if what he did with Arya was something in character for him or out of character.

Osha did things that were not kosher. But she showed so much loyalty to Bran and Rickon when she could have ditched them first chance she got. She didn't. She stayed. We know she killed and she stole, but she stuck by a cripple boy, a 3 year old and sweet Hodor. I'll root for her for that alone from dawn to sundown. I hope her ass stays alive in the books. 

Personally, I think in the end, when it comes to a story like this, it is how the characters change. If they grow, then it's great, if they don't, then they can die. I can't root for Varys, Littlefinger, Illyrio. It's impossible to root for these guys knowing how much damage they inflicted to everyone involved in the story and the ramifications their scheming has had.

[mac123x]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

I was about to say that Bran is the only good man in all of westeros but then I remembered Hodor. So um, Meera?

Hotpie for High Septon -- he's the only virtuous person left on the show, and apparently he's the incarnation of one of the lesser known aspects of the Seven -- The Chef.

[GrailKing]

19 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

One thing that's been irking me is so many people calling Sansa the QITN. Jon is still very much king. He doesn't lose his title just because he's away for a few weeks on a business trip. She's his appointed regent right now, ruling in his stead until he gets back. But she's not Queen. Not yet, at least.

For me at least ( and for now ) I'm just using it as a shorthand title, I'm flexible enough with Regent or Princess as they also could apply.

I don't think Jon doing this is for nothing ,( or GRRM for that matter as her Vale arc is starting to show )as in this scene Jon is LC Mormont and Sansa a young Jon Snow.

[blackwing]

16 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Disturbing that so many here rejoiced at the death of two female characters, sure they were Sand Snakes and boring but still, at least they weren't blonde like most of the women in this show .  

Oh right, they killed Cercei's daughter, who I never cared about anyway, I guess that's justice for Cercei.

I never hated the Sand Snakes.  I think the way they were portrayed on the show was disappointing, but I liked the concept of them.  I think what I find appalling about their deaths is that the GoT world became even whiter.

I recognise that race in the GoT universe doesn't have the same meaning as it does for us.  To them, "race" seems to be more about homeland rather than skin colour (for example, Valyrian).  But seriously, from our perspective, why is their world so white?  Did all of the minority looking people get left behind across the narrow sea?  Supposedly Daenerys brought her army and the Unsullied with her to Dragonstone but we haven't really seen much of the masses.

Apart from Ellaria Sand, the Sand Snakes, Grey Worm, Missandei... there don't seem to be many minority actors on this show who have speaking parts.  There were also the late Oberyn, Drogo and Talisa Stark, but all of the other minor minority characters I remember were either in Essos or Dorne.  Apparently all the minority looking people in Westeros are confined to Dorne.  So that's why I find the loss of two of the Sand Snakes disappointing, especially that of Jessica Henwick, the only person on this show who I can remember that is (in our terms) of East Asian descent.  It seems to me that Ellaria will likely die next week (or within the next few weeks), so that would be yet another non-white character lost.

[Francie]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

Given that The Shaester's first impulse, when she spotted her shorter Lannister lover, in the taller Lannister lover's bed chambers, was to grab a knife, I think it's safe to say she was in cahoots with the taller Lannister lover.

 

I dont like or dislike fictional characters. As a matter of what we have seen, however, I'd say Tywin's killing of his  pops and his former squeeze was justifiable homicide.  

Your ex-lover has just come upon you while you're in bed with someone else.  I'd say self-preservation and self-defense would be the first thought on most people's minds. I mean, you know, he might get all homicidal  ...

So, yeah, I look askance at that war council.  Dany's put in place a bunch of individuals with their own, mutually exclusive in some cases, motives -- and most of those motives have to do with personal payback for some wrong or perceived wrong. It's a team of rivals -- but petty, vindictive rivals. Who seem prone to murdering each other in their sleep.

[ElizaD]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Speaking of Hot Pie, am I the only one who was disappointed we didn't see a wolf bread that was even more elaborate and detailed than the one Pod wound up eating a few seasons ago? I was looking forward to seeing the further evolution of Hot Pie's baking skills.

Is he now the first character to have a confirmed happy ending in the GOT canon? That really felt like a fond farewell. With only six season 8 episodes left, I don't think the show would take the time to return to the Riverlands just to show that the White Walkers killed him. So Hot Pie is a survivor who will keep on baking until he dies of old age.

[Bannon]

10 minutes ago, Francie said:

Your ex-lover has just come upon you while you're in bed with someone else.  I'd say self-preservation and self-defense would be the first thought on most people's minds. I mean, you know, he might get all homicidal  ...

So, yeah, I look askance at that war council.  Dany's put in place a bunch of individuals with their own, mutually exclusive in some cases, motives -- and most of those motives have to do with personal payback for some wrong or perceived wrong. It's a team of rivals -- but petty, vindictive rivals. Who seem prone to murdering each other in their sleep.

Yeah, we'll have to argee to disagree that one's first impulse would be to grab a knife to stab an ex-lover, if the ex-lover caught you in his daddy's bed, absent a pre-existing inclination to see the ex-lover dead.

Again, I don't get moralistic about fictional characters. I just think that a reasonable human being, when other people attempt to have the reasonable human being murdered, via a trumped up murder conviction,, might decide to killl the people who are trying to have him murdered. 

[dr pepper]

On 24/07/2017 at 6:46 AM, GrailKing said:

Yes, but he painted a bigger target on his back, Jon needs to remember, he stands in the way of LF, he's possibly last male Stark which means LF won't let him last long; so from last weeks lines:  "want me to be smarter I should listen to you;" "is that so terrible?"

Not exact words, but the jest of it is close enough.

Yes Jon listen to Sansa.

I wonder if LF has figured out that Jon is also the last male Targaryan. I'm guessing no, because if he did, he'd switch his focus to having Jon marry Danerys. That combination could pick up a lot of support from the wavering factions or even cause some leaning towards Cersei to stay neutral. Of course, after they secure the continent, he'd go for a coup, but up till then he'd be an asset.

 

On 24/07/2017 at 7:20 AM, that one guy said:

All of this adds up to - Jon needs dragonglass, Dany needs allies and a Westerosi husband. If they're not married within three episodes I'll be a Targaryen's uncle.

Are you sure you aren't already? GRRM is really tricky with genealogy you know.

 

On 24/07/2017 at 1:34 PM, benteen said:

Cogman brought up that Nymeria going back to being Arya's pet would be a step backwards.  Nymeria is a leader of her own pack now.  Not a pet.  This made a lot of sense.  However, I hope this means that she can still be Arya's ally.

 

Thing is, in the book, Arya was beginning to develop the same mind rider powers as Jon, without them it will be a lot more difficult to bond with Nym.

 

On 24/07/2017 at 1:41 PM, Miles said:

Really? Two sandsnakes couldn't take out Euron? That makes the show Dorne storyline even more pathetic somehow.

Also Euron was cut by one of them. If he isn't dead within the next episode I'm calling shenanigans of the highest order!

No tactical coordination. Polearm snake keeps him back, whip snake gets him around the neck and pulls, dagger snake body checks him. Euron and his plate armor go over the side. But of course each is so conceited they all fight separately.

[Blonde Gator]

41 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I never hated the Sand Snakes.  I think the way they were portrayed on the show was disappointing, but I liked the concept of them.  I think what I find appalling about their deaths is that the GoT world became even whiter.

I recognise that race in the GoT universe doesn't have the same meaning as it does for us.  To them, "race" seems to be more about homeland rather than skin colour (for example, Valyrian).  But seriously, from our perspective, why is their world so white?  Did all of the minority looking people get left behind across the narrow sea?  Supposedly Daenerys brought her army and the Unsullied with her to Dragonstone but we haven't really seen much of the masses.

Apart from Ellaria Sand, the Sand Snakes, Grey Worm, Missandei... there don't seem to be many minority actors on this show who have speaking parts.  There were also the late Oberyn, Drogo and Talisa Stark, but all of the other minor minority characters I remember were either in Essos or Dorne.  Apparently all the minority looking people in Westeros are confined to Dorne.  So that's why I find the loss of two of the Sand Snakes disappointing, especially that of Jessica Henwick, the only person on this show who I can remember that is (in our terms) of East Asian descent.  It seems to me that Ellaria will likely die next week (or within the next few weeks), so that would be yet another non-white character lost.

The whole Dorne story line was destroyed in the series.  But the worst of that mess was the silly portrayal of the Sand Snakes.  Good Riddance.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Blonde Gator

[Francie]

37 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Yeah, we'll have to argee to disagree that one's first impulse would be to grab a knife to stab an ex-lover, if the ex-lover caught you in his daddy's bed, absent a pre-existing inclination to see the ex-lover dead.

Again, I don't get moralistic about fictional characters. I just think that a reasonable human being, when other people attempt to have the reasonable human being murdered, via a trumped up murder conviction,, might decide to killl the people who are trying to have him murdered. 

We will at that.

But I think you should realize that believing that Tyrion was justified in committing homicide is making a moral judgment. 

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, ElizaD said:

Is he now the first character to have a confirmed happy ending in the GOT canon? That really felt like a fond farewell. With only six season 8 episodes left, I don't think the show would take the time to return to the Riverlands just to show that the White Walkers killed him. So Hot Pie is a survivor who will keep on baking until he dies of old age.

One hopes so, but I'm not counting my hot pies until they're baked