S04.E03: Forged in Fire

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Liza and Kelsey reach a breaking point at a work retreat; Liza gets news that changes everything.

[chitowngirl]

I'm glad the Kelsey/Liza feud is over. It would have really dragged down the season if it had lasted much longer. And Liza-you were not getting drunk in the woods. You were at a corporate retreat with no wifi. Drinking or no drinking wouldn't have made any difference with your daughter or roommate trying to get a hold of you.

[Bort]

Yeah, I'm also glad they've finally worked through it. Because as contrite as Liza is, it was coming to the point where she was going to need to tell Kelsey that there was a difference between being mad and being an asshole. 

[WhosThatGirl]

I'm glad the fight is over as well. Kelsey was really grating, particularly in this episode, a lot. Like look I get it, she's mad because she was lied to for quite a long time but at some point yeah Kelsey was going to have to suck it up or just really cut the cord. Also.. Kelsey was super annoying this episode. 

Obvioisly Liza's drunken "im interested " to rival book guy  is going to come back to bite her.

[Armchair Critic]

Is Kelsey really that good at her job? First she was screwing the married author, now she is getting drunk and ranting about her ex boyfriend's book.

I don't think Liza is going to another agency but I would think if she got another job in publishing that she would want one where she doesn't have to keep up the pretense of being much younger.

[WhosThatGirl]

18 minutes ago, Armchair Critic said:

Is Kelsey really that good at her job? First she was screwing the married author, now she is getting drunk and ranting about her ex boyfriend's book.

I don't think Liza is going to another agency but I would think if she got another job in publishing that she would want one where she doesn't have to keep up the pretense of being much younger.

Yeah.. I didn't get that either. In previous seasons-aside from a few scenes in episodes like non work parties- Kelsey wasn't throwing down shots and drinks, she was drinking but moderately. Not getting smashed and hooking up with randoms at said work events. It didn't make sense. I can only think it was done to make a contrast between her and Liza. 

[Adultosaurus]

I think the Kelsey reaction was an overreaction, and her coming around was unrealistic.  From this point, there'd be no real reason Josh would even still be in the picture (happy he will be though) - this show lost me as an invested viewer last season.  I'll watch this one just for the eye candy.

[Snarklepuss]

Yeah, Kelsey's self righteous reaction to Liza telling the truth was OTT but her coming around was pretty gimmicky.  A sick child plot device works to cool TV feuds every time.  I'm still sick of the way Kelsey is making everything about age.  Liza not being able to handle as much booze as she can is not necessarily because she's older.  I could never handle more than 4 drinks in a row even when I was in my 20s.  I hope now that Kelsey's cooled off she quits it with that shit.  

I think they're setting us up for Liza to seriously consider the other job offer, but then of course Charles will pop in at the last minute before she signs the contract to offer her the raise and promotion.

I was getting a mild SATC vibe with Diana's little sub-plot with Richard's ex.  It was something reminiscent of what Samantha might do in a similar situation, except of course with a lot more of Samantha's classic arrogant confidence!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

[gpgurl50]

3 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

Yeah.. I didn't get that either. In previous seasons-aside from a few scenes in episodes like non work parties- Kelsey wasn't throwing down shots and drinks, she was drinking but moderately. Not getting smashed and hooking up with randoms at said work events. It didn't make sense. I can only think it was done to make a contrast between her and Liza. 

I think it was a mix of Kelsey drinking because she was stuck with Liza and also to irritate Liza as much as Liza was irritating her.  Still, her reaction was very strong and I agree that her suddenly getting over it was convenient too.  I'm glad Caitlin was actually being pleasant.

[voiceover]

Line of the night was Richard's, re: his ex (I promptly forgot the verbatim but I'll watch the repeat Fri & come back and edit):

[She must've been] "test-piloting her new meds."

-- I'm going to get that right & use it as my go-to put down.

I'm grateful that Richard seems like a better guy this season.  Fingers crossed.

I assumed (pure spec) that Liza would get hired away, thus eliminating the "You're my boss's boss" obstacle with Charles that seems to bug many people.

Edited July 13, 2017 by voiceover

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Ugh, Kelsey was being such an immature brat. Taking public digs at the publishing company that was dumb enough to take Colin's terrible book off her hands just makes her look petty, especially since it wasn't a secret that she was dating him.

I was totally fine with Kelsey telling Liza that she needed to network more (rather than just talking to a nun and the guy who offered her a job) because that's what they're there to do, but with some caveats. First of all, she had no idea what Liza was talking to that guy about. For all Kelsey knew, he had something great for Millennial. If that were the case, being rude to him would have blown that opportunity. Besides, rule number one when you're networking at an event like that is DON'T BE RUDE TO ANYONE. You're supposed to be networking, not burning bridges.

But Kelsey really crossed the line when she insisted that Liza needed to do shots in order to be on brand. As someone who doesn't drink, I can tell you how easy it is to network at events like this without drinking AND without letting people know you're not drinking. You just get a glass (not a shot) of something and hold it. People assume that you're drinking as long as you have a glass in your hand. It doesn't even have to be an alcoholic beverage. As long as you have a glass with liquid in it and you drink from it occasionally, people assume you're drinking alcohol at events like this. And to be honest, most people don't care if it's non-alcoholic because they know it's a work event and you shouldn't be getting trashed. People either assume you switched to water/lemonade/iced tea after having some alcohol earlier in the evening or they assume that you know you have to get up early in the morning and therefore don't need to be doing shots all night. And what kind of a person is keeping track of how many drinks everyone else in the room has had? Oh, right. Just Kelsey.

Being younger doesn't mean people want to see you get sloppy drunk. People are interested in Millennial because the brand is young and fresh (and the assumption is that Millennial knows what's on trend), not because they want to see the head of the imprint get belligerently drunk. Kelsey was forcing Liza to drink because she was being petty and immature and trying to punish her, which was extremely unprofessional and inappropriate. You can be mad, but letting your personal feelings affect the way you treat an employee during work hours or at work events is crossing a huge line.

What was Liza's official title at Millennial when Kelsey originally asked her to join? Does this promotion mean Diana will finally have to get a new assistant? I liked that as soon as Kelsey tried to squash Liza getting a promotion, Diana immediately took Liza to lunch and tried to warn her to fix things with Kelsey so that it wouldn't affect her career. I was actually shocked when Diana offered to listen to what happened between Liza/Kelsey/Josh, so I love that she's being kinder to Liza and trying to look out for her.

[dubbel zout]

7 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

It didn't make sense.

It made sense to me—Kelsey was still furious with Liza, and trying to outdrink Liza was a way to show her she wasn't 27 anymore. Which is dumb, because alcohol tolerance isn't necessarily based on one's age. But whatever.

I'm glad the fight is (mostly) over. I think seeing Liza so upset about her daughter showed Kelsey that Liza was the same person she thought she was—genuinely concerned, caring, etc. It all came about a bit too quickly but that's TV.

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

What was Liza's official title at Millennial when Kelsey originally asked her to join?

I don't think Liza was given a new title, was she? She was Diana's assistant, and Diana said she could work for Millennial as long as it didn't interfere with Liza's duties for Diana. Liza is still working for Diana, since in the promotion meeting Diana got a bit bent out of shape that she'd be out an assistant.

[Bort]

3 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I think seeing Liza so upset about her daughter showed Kelsey that Liza was the same person she thought she was—genuinely concerned, caring, etc. It all came about a bit too quickly but that's TV.

That, and also I think that Kelsey finally realized the bigger picture: that there are more important things than her feelings.

[dmc]

Well Team Diana, she may be a tough boss but she has Liza's back...so points for Diana

As much as I wanted to smack Kelsey this episode...I have to give a few points because I am not sure I would recommend someone to my boss for a promotion that had been lying to me either.

But her behavior at their work weekend was atrocious.  First of all being in your 20s at work...doesn't mean getting blitzed at work events...second...your personal drama is just that...leave at home...

I like that her and Liza finally are speaking but it like she is just realizing that Liza has responsibilities and money problem hence the reason for her job...

I am totally team Liza at work, I think she is great at her job BUT...her getting a promotion from Charles who clearly likes her...is weird...I mean both Diana and Kelsey are her direct supervisors...they should be bringing that to Charles...not him bringing it to them...

[gesundheit]

I still don't understand Liza's job as it is. Being EA to someone like Diana would be a round-the-clock job yet it seems most of Liza's duties are Millenial-related. That said, I can understand why Kelsey wouldn't want Liza's official job title to change because she's now complicit in fraud since she knows Liza's status as a millenial is a lie (including, as we confirmed this episode, being involved in ID fakery). And Liza probably shouldn't switch companies to join a Gen Y imprint. Surely some HR department in some publishing company actually does the paperwork required by the federal government! (Yeah, yeah, it's just TV. But this is torture for someone who works in HR!)

Oh and by the way, we've seen Liza knocking back multiple shots in earlier seasons, how was this the "drunkest she's ever been?" Trying to keep up on that stuff was part of a recurring theme before.

[Atlanta]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

But Kelsey really crossed the line when she insisted that Liza needed to do shots in order to be on brand. As someone who doesn't drink, I can tell you how easy it is to network at events like this without drinking AND without letting people know you're not drinking. You just get a glass (not a shot) of something and hold it. People assume that you're drinking as long as you have a glass in your hand. It doesn't even have to be an alcoholic beverage. As long as you have a glass with liquid in it and you drink from it occasionally, people assume you're drinking alcohol at events like this. And to be honest, most people don't care if it's non-alcoholic because they know it's a work event and you shouldn't be getting trashed. People either assume you switched to water/lemonade/iced tea after having some alcohol earlier in the evening or they assume that you know you have to get up early in the morning and therefore don't need to be doing shots all night. And what kind of a person is keeping track of how many drinks everyone else in the room has had? Oh, right. Just Kelsey.

Being younger doesn't mean people want to see you get sloppy drunk. People are interested in Millennial because the brand is young and fresh (and the assumption is that Millennial knows what's on trend), not because they want to see the head of the imprint get belligerently drunk. Kelsey was forcing Liza to drink because she was being petty and immature and trying to punish her, which was extremely unprofessional and inappropriate. You can be mad, but letting your personal feelings affect the way you treat an employee during work hours or at work events is crossing a huge line.

I was never a drinker in my teens, 20s and early 30s. You can be at a bar, party, event with a Diet Coke and mingle just as well and there's no risk of accidentally getting a heavy pour from a bartender and getting accidentally tipsy (you may know your limit, but that could throw you off). Kelsey was never one to get sloshed before. 

Quote

I still don't understand Liza's job as it is. Being EA to someone like Diana would be a round-the-clock job yet it seems most of Liza's duties are Millenial-related. That said, I can understand why Kelsey wouldn't want Liza's official job title to change because she's now complicit in fraud since she knows Liza's status as a millenial is a lie (including, as we confirmed this episode, being involved in ID fakery). And Liza probably shouldn't switch companies to join a Gen Y imprint. Surely some HR department in some publishing company actually does the paperwork required by the federal government! (Yeah, yeah, it's just TV. But this is torture for someone who works in HR!)

That always bugged me too--both with being Diana's EA and HR/health insurance factor. Yes, it's TV, but all of that can't be completely faked. LOL

[EdnasEdibles]

I admit I am a bit neurotic in life but as a mom of two kids, when I travel for work, my husband always has the name & number of my hotel so that if something were to happen and he can't reach me, the hotel could take a message. I know her daughter is in college but you'd think that she would have told her daughter "Hey, i'm going out of town and I'll be staying here" 

I'm glad the fight appears to be over with Kelsey though. I couldn't take a whole season of this. 

[dubbel zout]

I forgot to mention this. While I like that Kelsey did go back to Charles and tell him Liza deserved the promotion, I hated that she said the raise could come out of her salary. No, no, no. I get that it was a gesture to show that, at least professionally, Kelsey had made peace with Liza, but if Charles thinks Liza should get a promotion, a raise should come with it. If he can't budget for that without cannibalizing other peoples' salaries, he's a terrible (or sleazy) businessman. I was relieved when he said he could find the money elsewhere.

[dmc]

3 hours ago, gesundheit said:

I still don't understand Liza's job as it is. Being EA to someone like Diana would be a round-the-clock job yet it seems most of Liza's duties are Millenial-related. That said, I can understand why Kelsey wouldn't want Liza's official job title to change because she's now complicit in fraud since she knows Liza's status as a millenial is a lie (including, as we confirmed this episode, being involved in ID fakery). And Liza probably shouldn't switch companies to join a Gen Y imprint. Surely some HR department in some publishing company actually does the paperwork required by the federal government! (Yeah, yeah, it's just TV. But this is torture for someone who works in HR!)

Oh and by the way, we've seen Liza knocking back multiple shots in earlier seasons, how was this the "drunkest she's ever been?" Trying to keep up on that stuff was part of a recurring theme before.

I have seen paperwork fall through the cracks at companies...they are supposed to check but some companies do not.  Back when I worked in property management...a resident was killed at another property by the assistant community manager that had a criminal felony record that wasn't checked. 

[voiceover]

3 hours ago, dmc said:

I have seen paperwork fall through the cracks at companies...they are supposed to check but some companies do not.  Back when I worked in property management...a resident was killed at another property by the assistant community manager that had a criminal felony record that wasn't checked. 

Yiiiiiikes!!

Not anything like as lethal, but in the academic profession, there's lots of late-term discoveries of "Wow, you didn't really write that paper/get that grant/degree/work at that university"...

Lots of buck-passing.

So on the list of unbelievables for this series, I don't rank that in the top 20.

[Atlanta]

So glad the Kelsey/Liza angst is now a thing of the past. I don't mind K having minor trust issues with Liza, but hopefully she saw why Liza had to do what she did. It seemed to bring it home with Caitlin being in the ER for an emergency appendectomy. Liza didn't lie about her age to be a nasty lying liar, but to provide for her daughter and herself since her husband was a useless cheater. I'd like to seem them forge a big sis/little sis bond. Kelsey now knows that Liza has been-there-done-that and can offer some good advice. I like that this show has strong female relationships. Even Diana has thawed toward Liza.

Back when I was looking for work right out of college, where were these places that wanted young, fresh faces? Every place I interviewed wanted a zillion years of experience and these jobs weren't management or high up positions. Right after college I worked some crappy call center and receptionist jobs to make ends meet (nothing wrong with those jobs, but it wasn't what I was looking for and when I worked as a receptionist, the secretaries right above me were pure evil) and then you send out a resume and no one wants to look at you since you've been pegged as XYZ even though your degree is ABC and that's what you really want to do. Sorry, I had to pay rent. /vent

Josh moves on fast. If they don't present this as a rebound, this show may lose me. He was committed and in love with Liza enough to propose. 

How much time has passed in the universe of this show?

Aw! Richard! I want to see the parrot again. Snort.

Charles, you're a snore.

What kind of place doesn't at least have cell phone service? The who stay there are not pod people without families and friends who may have emergencies. 

[dubbel zout]

28 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

What kind of place doesn't at least have cell phone service? The who stay there are not pod people without families and friends who may have emergencies. 

No cell service doesn't mean there was no contact with the outside world. There are still things called land lines. And it's possible the business office had an Internet connection. The point of the retreat was for people to talk to one another in person, not stare at a screen.

[bilgistic]

1 hour ago, Atlanta said:

Back when I was looking for work right out of college, where were these places that wanted young, fresh faces? Every place I interviewed wanted a zillion years of experience and these jobs weren't management or high up positions. Right after college I worked some crappy call center and receptionist jobs to make ends meet (nothing wrong with those jobs, but it wasn't what I was looking for and when I worked as a receptionist, the secretaries right above me were pure evil) and then you send out a resume and no one wants to look at you since you've been pegged as XYZ even though your degree is ABC and that's what you really want to do. Sorry, I had to pay rent. /vent

Yes! I graduated cough20cough years ago; I have an English degree and started out making less than $19K working on staff at the college from which I graduated! "Experience" was key for the first 15 years of my post-college life, and now it's Millennial this and that. At 42, I'm seven years older than my boss and even older than my coworkers. Experience no longer means jack. Ugh.

Edited July 14, 2017 by bilgistic

[MissEwa]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

No cell service doesn't mean there was no contact with the outside world. There are still things called land lines. And it's possible the business office had an Internet connection. The point of the retreat was for people to talk to one another in person, not stare at a screen.

Yeah, I'm okay with most of this plot-point. And I'm also fine with Liza not giving her daughter *any* details of where she was going, nevermind emergency contact details - they don't live together and Caitlin is an adult. The most she'd probably tell her is that is was a super-exculsive work conference upstate, and that's assuming she told her she was even going away - nothing on the show indicates they're that close that Liza would be like 'oh, I'm going away for a weekend, I should make sure Caitlin knows'. I'd assume someone at Empirical had the details, or could have got them from Achilles, so if Caitlin was thinking straight she might have talked to Maggie, who might have told her to go that route, but that not happening is fine for me too. 

I'm also fine with Josh hooking up with Maggie's assistant. They're young and single so why not? I don't think it has to be framed as a rebound as such but I think it's clearly something fun and not a great big love affair. I predict a Kelsey situation by the end of the season and I think I'd probably prefer that to him reuniting with Liza at this point, given Charles is clearly end-game and I don't want Josh to get sucked in only to get hurt again. 

[Eri]

I suspect Josh has a small crush on Kelsey but she'll reject him if he made an advance because as annoying as she's been acting lately, she talks a big game but isn't that type of person (I assumed this before the reconciliation took place). The entire Diana/Winnie segment made me cringe...and after she told Liza they're not in high school? Really?

I honestly don't care about Josh anymore and he's better off moving forward with his life.

[voiceover]

2 hours ago, bilgistic said:

"Experience" was key for the first 15 years of my post-college life, and now it's Millennial this and that. At 42, I'm seven years older than my boss and even older than my coworkers. Experience no longer means jack. Ugh.

Wow.  Co-sign with you & @Atlanta (despite the inability to see my Charles as 30s-movie star fab).  When did "experience" turn out to be something you'd have to hide on a resume?  But it is, even -- to my sorrow -- in academe.

I guess the relatively quick Kelsey turnaround is due in part to the number of eps, in part to the fact that Liza didn't embezzle, commit murder, or sleep with any one of those ChadThad dopplebangers.

[dmc]

16 hours ago, voiceover said:

Yiiiiiikes!!

Not anything like as lethal, but in the academic profession, there's lots of late-term discoveries of "Wow, you didn't really write that paper/get that grant/degree/work at that university"...

Lots of buck-passing.

So on the list of unbelievables for this series, I don't rank that in the top 20.

Yeah it was pretty crazy and they found other tenants keys in his apartment too. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 7/13/2017 at 2:20 AM, Snarklepuss said:

I was getting a mild SATC vibe with Diana's little sub-plot with Richard's ex.  It was something reminiscent of what Samantha might do in a similar situation, except of course with a lot more of Samantha's classic arrogant confidence!

It was Carrie who did this, not Samantha.  Never Samantha.  Carrie did exactly this.  Set up a meeting with Big's ex to meet her.

On 7/13/2017 at 6:09 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

But Kelsey really crossed the line when she insisted that Liza needed to do shots in order to be on brand. As someone who doesn't drink, I can tell you how easy it is to network at events like this without drinking AND without letting people know you're not drinking. You just get a glass (not a shot) of something and hold it.

Liza could have been assertive about the situation and said No.  She's like 40 years old.  I don't know if Kelsey is in any way Liza's superior but I've had superiors try to get me to drink more than I wanted to and there are so many ways to handle it besides what Liza did.  

I am sure a lot of us went through that job hunting hell.....  right after graduating from University I went to a bunch of interviews where I was told I was either underqualified or overqualified.  Most corporations / companies are a joke this way,  they want "experience" for an entry level position.  I went to so many nightmare interviews until I just sat in my car and cried.  I have no idea how anyone gets positions at all.  Most of mine I got because I knew someone and I was also not at all qualified for those positions.  And so now I have "experience".  That experience won't get me another job unless I know somebody at the company.  Hiring is mostly bullshit.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Atlanta]

4 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I am sure a lot of us went through that job hunting hell.....  right after graduating from University I went to a bunch of interviews where I was told I was either underqualified or overqualified.  Most corporations / companies are a joke this way,  they want "experience" for an entry level position.  I went to so many nightmare interviews until I just sat in my car and cried.  I have no idea how anyone gets positions at all.  Most of mine I got because I knew someone and I was also not at all qualified for those positions.  And so now I have "experience".  That experience won't get me another job unless I know somebody at the company.  Hiring is mostly bullshit.

This. ^ I was seeking ground level employment in my field but they wanted experience. Wha?

dubbel zout, I do know what landlines are. ;) I have one in my house.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Outtakes from S4.E3:

[FurryFury]

That was actually a pretty good episode. Loved the Kelsey/Liza reconciliation and how Kelsey was shocked at her realization about Lisa's daughter. That was always the strongest part of Younger and I hope their relationship will evolve now in new and interesting ways.

[Texasmom1970]

So glad is seems the hostility Kelsey was hurling at Liza seems to be over. I spent the majority of the episode wanting to reach through the tv and bitch slap her.

I understand Liza lied and she felt betrayed but damn.  She was acting like Liza stole her husband, emptied her bank account and ran over her dog!

[voiceover]

8 hours ago, Texasmom1970 said:

  She was acting like Liza stole her husband, emptied her bank account and ran over her dog!

Sounds like a country song! 

[txhorns79]

Quote

Well Team Diana, she may be a tough boss but she has Liza's back...so points for Diana

Seriously.  Diana was the best.  She was supportive and actually was trying to help Liza. 

I also kind of rolled my eyes at Liza making a show of the potential job offer.  I understand she said what she said in an emotional moment, but surely she realizes she can't just go off to a new job and maintain her lie? 

Edited July 17, 2017 by txhorns79

[dubbel zout]

10 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

surely she realizes she can't just go off to a new job and maintain her lie?

I think she absolutely does, but in the moment getting away from Kelsey was the point.

Though maintaining the lie brings up an interesting dilemma. Liza took the job at Empirical by lying, and she probably thought once she got a toehold, she'd spill the beans and there'd be little to no consequence. ("Yeah, I'm really 40. You must have read the dates wrong on my ID. Sorry! But it's no big deal, right?") She could have the publishing career she'd always dreamed of. But now Liza is stuck in the lie, professionally. She'll make a laughingstock of herself and Empirical if she comes clean, and she cares about these people more than she likely anticipated. So she's either stuck at Empirical forever—which, there's nothing wrong with being at the same job, but in publishing, at least, the faster and better way to get promoted (especially once you're out of the entry level) is to leave—or she goes somewhere else, taking a huge chance that the secret won't get out and blow up in her face.

[Bort]

I don't think it would be that hard for Liza to say to the other publisher in an interview that she's really 40 and they at Emperical publicly maintain her persona at 26 for Millenial "street cred." They're trying to poach Liza away, I doubt they'd call to verify. They're already impressed by her, they may not care. Then Liza can have a new job where she doesn't have to lie. Or they may tell her they want someone who's actually 26, withdraw their offer and she stays at Emperical with them none the wiser.

[dubbel zout]

Publishing is a notoriously gossipy industry. The news would get out, especially given how much attention Millennial is getting. But I'm sure for the show, it's not going to make any difference. It's one of those things one either accepts or not. I was basically musing out loud more than anything else.