S09.E13: A Bronx Tale

[lunastartron]

1 hour ago, KungFuBunny said:

I do wonder if Tinsley as well as all of the HW’s are very careful with what they say due to the possible legal ramifications. Could she be sued for defamation of character if Nico is mentioned and she reveals details linking him specifically to the abuse? Would the other ladies be summoned to testify on what Tinsley has said to them?

I know there are pictures of her bruising and the hospital report of her being there getting staples in her head. Would Tinsley have to “prove” in court that he caused those injuries? How would she prove it? From what I understand about that particular incident from 2103, she was not at his place, she went right to the hospital. I know in some articles it was said that he broke the windshield wiper on her mother’s car and keyed it…but there are no pictures or video footage.

I also wonder if there are other details in that agreement she signed in July 2016 that were sealed.

The Jezebel article on the DV incidents said that the police report includes references to Tinsley sharing an iPhone video of Fanjul doing this as well as shattering the windshield while she was locked inside the car.

A police report on a separate episode notes that a neighbor confirmed witnessing Fanjul shoving/throwing her down and "pushing her face" into the ground. 

[zoeysmom]

5 hours ago, KungFuBunny said:

I do wonder if Tinsley as well as all of the HW’s are very careful with what they say due to the possible legal ramifications. Could she be sued for defamation of character if Nico is mentioned and she reveals details linking him specifically to the abuse? Would the other ladies be summoned to testify on what Tinsley has said to them?

I know there are pictures of her bruising and the hospital report of her being there getting staples in her head. Would Tinsley have to “prove” in court that he caused those injuries? How would she prove it? From what I understand about that particular incident from 2103, she was not at his place, she went right to the hospital. I know in some articles it was said that he broke the windshield wiper on her mother’s car and keyed it…but there are no pictures or video footage.

I also wonder if there are other details in that agreement she signed in July 2016 that were sealed.

It would be a first for any of the RH to be careful about what they say.  I can't see where Tinsley would be sued for defamation these allegations have been out there for awhile.  

The photos were taken at the hospital by police officers.  Fanjul broke the windshield wiper off the Range Rover after keying all the way around and then broke the windshield  with the windshield wiper while Tinsley was videotaping the attack with her phone.  That seems pretty definitive as to who caused he damage.  

I cannot think of anything the DA's office could offer that would keep Tinsley from talking.  Once she entered her plea her out of court statements are irrelevant to the case.  I believe the case has been forever adjudicated as of December 2016.   

Edited July 2, 2017 by zoeysmom

[ShawnaLanne]

12 hours ago, LIMOM said:

Well, it is hard to ban friends from peeing on the seat.

what am I gonna say?

dude, you are not peeing in my powder room because at the last party after your 5 or 10 beers you peed on the seat?

And then get in an argument because now I accuse someone of defiling my bathroom?

nah, life is too short. 

Now if you poop on the floor, it is on. I have my limits (and this happened, irl. )

I'm so sorry. Eww.

[Ki-in]

On 6/29/2017 at 5:29 PM, WireWrap said:

Both Luann and Ramona brought home strange men, Luann did her thing with 1 of them and sent him on his way. Ramona on the other hand claimed nothing happened with her and she sent him to sleep in the room adjacent to Heather's/Carole's room without telling them. Also, it was Ramona that put all the blame on Luann, she told Heather/Carole it was Luann's guy in that room. Oh, and no one held Ramona accountable for him or the fight between Luann/Heather/Carole that ensued after. LOL

Thank you, that's right!  They were too busy having fun ganging up on Luann to care about the real troublemaker...Ramona. 

[BckpckFullaNinjas]

1 hour ago, zoeysmom said:

This isn't necessarily directed at you but I am curious as to what is the prescribed treatment for PTSD?

@zoeysmom, good question. One of my children has PTSD from OIF and as I understand it there's no one treatment. My thinking about Tinsley is that if she's fragile from the DV and from realizing she's squandered her best baby-making years (and now is inclined to start a family), exposing herself to 6 cranky women, however many ambitious producers and viewership is not a good plan. Apparently my intuition is miles and 180 from her reality. 

As to the 6-figure salary, if she can use the pocket change ( ;-} ), heck, why not?

[Wendy]

1 hour ago, KungFuBunny said:

I do wonder if Tinsley as well as all of the HW’s are very careful with what they say due to the possible legal ramifications. Could she be sued for defamation of character if Nico is mentioned and she reveals details linking him specifically to the abuse? Would the other ladies be summoned to testify on what Tinsley has said to them?

I know there are pictures of her bruising and the hospital report of her being there getting staples in her head. Would Tinsley have to “prove” in court that he caused those injuries? How would she prove it? From what I understand about that particular incident from 2103, she was not at his place, she went right to the hospital. I know in some articles it was said that he broke the windshield wiper on her mother’s car and keyed it…but there are no pictures or video footage.

I also wonder if there are other details in that agreement she signed in July 2016 that were sealed.

1

Tinsley is accommodating the narrative as she sees fit, that is not unheard of, she is telling the viewers that she got arrested and her face plastered on a mugshot because her exBF's family are billionaries, (this is true) , that she was physically abused (this is also true, even though police reports state that the physical part of it was on both sides) but she doesn't mention that she willingly (well maybe she was drunk out of her mind) violated a restraining order that forbid her from getting anywhere close to him or his residence. 

Looking back in time I am 100% sure that she regrets going to his house to retrieve her purse, but the fact is that she got arrested because she broke the law. It is also not true that she was proved innocent, she accepted a plea promising that if she didn't violate the RO again until December 31st, then the charges will be dropped. That is not the same as the judge finding no evidence and throwing the case out. She allowed this guy to treat her like crap, to be his booty call for three years, then when he traded her for another woman she lost her mind.

Hopefully she has learned her lesson and never allows another guy to take advantage of her like that. She is beautiful and she is pleasant but she has to learn to be independent or the story will repeat.  Guys can smell desperation miles away. 

[BBHN]

Quote

I kind of have the same questions regarding when Tinsley should re-enter the dating world.  Is there some sort of prescribed time before she should be allowed to be unleashed on the males of the UES?  Or new York City in general. 

She can date whenever she wants. But until she deals with what happened, she might end up making the same mistake(s) again.

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Is there also some treatment portion that claims you should cut your hair and give up false eyelashes?

It wouldn't hurt, especially if someone sincerely is looking for a fresh start.

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From what I have read I feel people really want to punish Tinsley for coming on the show.

Who exactly wants to punish her for that?

[Chit Chat]

2 hours ago, lunastartron said:

I do wonder if Tinsley as well as all of the HW’s are very careful with what they say due to the possible legal ramifications.

Seems like I read somewhere that she's afraid of him in part because he comes from a powerful family.  They could probably ruin her in a heartbeat if they wanted to.  It's a sad situation all the way around.

[film noire]

2 hours ago, Wendy said:

Hopefully she has learned her lesson and never allows another guy to take advantage of her like that. She is beautiful and she is pleasant but she has to learn to be independent or the story will repeat.  Guys can smell desperation miles away. 

I might be misreading you, but phrases like "She allowed this guy to treat her like crap" and  "learned her lesson" and "take advantage of her like that" sounds as if Tinsley somehow carries the most /all responsibility for the abuse, not him. And abusive relationships happen to lots of women who meet your standards (smart, independent, no smell of "desperation" on them) and still they're stuck in emotionally and physically violent  situations. 

Edited July 2, 2017 by film noire

[sasha206]

5 hours ago, lunastartron said:

The Jezebel article on the DV incidents said that the police report includes references to Tinsley sharing an iPhone video of Fanjul doing this as well as shattering the windshield while she was locked inside the car.

A police report on a separate episode notes that a neighbor confirmed witnessing Fanjul shoving/throwing her down and "pushing her face" into the ground. 

Wow, that's frightening.  And given all of this, it's especially galling how dismissive the women were.

Edited July 3, 2017 by sasha206

[BckpckFullaNinjas]

5 hours ago, Ki-in said:

Thank you, that's right!  They were too busy having fun ganging up on Luann to care about the real troublemaker...Ramona. 

I'm in the minority, probably, but I'd like to see Ramona gone from the show.  No "friend of," -- clean break. I suppose AC has loved her because she's reliably brought the manic energy and outrageousness, but this season she's pure malevolence. 

The funny part has gone away, with any possible vulnerability.  All that's left is the mean.  Au reservoir, as we C-students in French used to say. 

[Wendy]

3 hours ago, film noire said:

I might be misreading you, but phrases like "She allowed this guy to treat her like crap" and  "learned her lesson" and "take advantage of her like that" sounds as if Tinsley somehow carries the most /all responsibility for the abuse, not him. And abusive relationships happen to lots of women who meet your standards (smart, independent, no smell of "desperation" on them) and still they're stuck in emotionally and physically violent  situations. 

1

 

 

She allowed this guy to treat her like crap meaning she didn't leave him after the first time he hit her, they have no legal ties or children together. One time is one too many. She should have left him but she stayed for three years. 

Learned her lesson meaning not ever allow another guy to hide her from friends and family and just call her at 2:00 a.m. to have sex and then pretend that they mean nothing to each other. She should demand respect and no accept this kind of treatment from anybody else. 

Take advantage of her = he did take advantage of the fact that Tinsley loved him, even though he was 10 years younger than her, for all I have read he is the one who set the pace of the relationship. Tinsley let him get away with too much and never press charges for the physical abuse which in return made it easier for him to paint her as a stalker and get a RO against her. 

 

I do get that plenty of strong women get stuck in abusive relationships because they want to live the dream of love ever after, in this backward society where most women are judged by their love life, their ability to keep a relationship and whether they are able or have decided to procreate or not, society put enormous pressures on us as a gender so at some point in life Tinsley (or any abused women for that matter) need to go into self-preservation mood and decide that they will never make the same mistake. 

Tinsley is still stuck in the past and that is why she is bound to repeat her mistakes, she keeps looking for her savior/prince charming and I do hope she finds him but it wouldn't surprise me that she would find herself into another terrible relationship, she needs to work on herself before trying to find someone else. 

 I do feel for Tinsley just as much as for any women who finds herself in an abusive relationship. It is one of the worst experiences anybody could endure. I am talking about her future, she needs to get strong and learn to love herself before rushing into another relationship. 

[zoeysmom]

I believe fresh start and re-entry have been used interchangeably and they really aren't synonymous.  I would think the first thing a person should do any person, is be true to themselves.   Both Luann and the therapist told Tinsley she has start with her.

Things I found interesting Tinsley said-no more WASP guys with trust funds.  She thinks work is good for a man and ultimately the relationship.  The abuser had spent three years trying to get an insurance license.  Of interest is one of the beatings she suffered was because the abuser disapproved of who Tinsley had gone boating with the previous week.  Tinsley's dad was a WASPy southern gentle man (alcoholic). 

I understood where Tinsley was coming from regarding the press.  For whatever reason, she feels she is not being heard or only the really negative stuff about her and she cannot relate as to how the others' feel the same.  In all honesty the only who really gets rough press is Luann.  Ramona and Bethenny are kind of the darlings of Page Six.  Just like Tinsley use to be.  Ramona and Bethenny may have stories about their lives and divorces but they come off sympathetic.  Tinsley doesn't feel like she is being supported in her quest to return to her previous level of respectability.  The very idea that Sonja thinks she is the correct pathway is beyond funny and at the usual delusional level Sonja idles. 

I am always curious when someone chooses not to have children, like Carole, no matter what she wanted it was never going to happen naturally with her first husband, why they get so offended when someone mentions it?  Certainly since Carole has been widowed she has had plenty of opportunities to have a child.  She always looks so hurt and gets so offended.  I haven't heard a reason why after her husband's death she could not adopt, conceive naturally or through in vitro.   There can be a difference between saying, like Ramona, "you don't have a child so you don't understand," but mentioning someone is without a child by choice  should not be in the same realm.  Same goes for Tinsley only I always hear her say she wants to be married and have children.

[prettybird]

In defense of Carole, I think she wanted a family.  Just as Tinsley wants a family.  Tinsley has frozen her eggs so she could go get a sperm donor & have kids right away but she wants a FAMILY.  Carole wanted a family with her late husband & when that didn't happen, I can see how she was reticent on just going & having a kid. It's actually really sad & I feel bad for her.. Tinsley probably doesn't know the details but just saying "you didn't want kids" is a bit short sighted. 

Edited July 3, 2017 by prettybird

[motorcitymom65]

7 minutes ago, prettybird said:

In defense of Carole, I think she wanted a family.  Just as Tinsley wants a family.  Tinsley has frozen her eggs so she could go get a sperm donor & have kids right away but she wants a FAMILY.  Carole wanted a family with her late husband & when that didn't happen, I can see how she was reticent on just going & having a kid. It's actually really sad & I feel bad for her.. Tinsley probably doesn't know the details but just saying "you didn't want kids" is a bit short sighted. 

Agreed. I also think it was the way it was introduced. They weren't talking about Carole. She had been completely quiet during the entire discussion. She wasn't pushing back at Tinsley or offering her any advice. She was just listening. This is something that is no doubt deeply personal to Carole for a variety of reasons. She might be just fine with her decision (it sounds like she is) which doesn't mean that things wouldn't have been different if things would have been different. But it was just lobbed out there out of the blue. I think she was shocked, but I didn't think she was exactly offended. 

[motorcitymom65]

1 hour ago, zoeysmom said:

I am always curious when someone chooses not to have children, like Carole, no matter what she wanted it was never going to happen naturally with her first husband, why they get so offended when someone mentions it?  Certainly since Carole has been widowed she has had plenty of opportunities to have a child.  She always looks so hurt and gets so offended.  I haven't heard a reason why after her husband's death she could not adopt, conceive naturally or through in vitro.   There can be a difference between saying, like Ramona, "you don't have a child so you don't understand," but mentioning someone is without a child by choice  should not be in the same realm.  Same goes for Tinsley only I always hear her say she wants to be married and have children.

I think - and this is just based on the few people I know who have decided to not have children - is that it is so deeply personal and often very complex. It is often not simply "they decided to not have children", even if that is exactly what they did. Sometimes those decisions are agonizing, sometimes they are not. Sometimes even if they are fine with their decision, there are sparks of regret and the wondering of "what if". Sometimes they decide to not have children because of their situation, but know that in a different situation things would have been different. And women in our society who don't have children are still often looked at differently than those that do have kids. As if they have to justify their decision making process. I don't mean to speak for women who have made this decision because I am probably doing it poorly, but I just don't think it is that simple in all cases. 

[ShawnaLanne]

2 hours ago, BckpckFullaNinjas said:

I'm in the minority, probably, but I'd like to see Ramona gone from the show.  No "friend of," -- clean break. I suppose AC has loved her because she's reliably brought the manic energy and outrageousness, but this season she's pure malevolence. 

The funny part has gone away, with any possible vulnerability.  All that's left is the mean.  Au reservoir, as we C-students in French used to say. 

Not from here.  Ramona is awful. The show could only be better without her, she is infuriating to watch. Her compulsive lieing, cruel commentary,  and entitled crap are not fun to watch.  

Between her unhinged response to Bethany all season and her complete lack of remorse for destroying Dorinda's room, I say torpedo the twit.  It seems to me that she's close to a Kelly level breakdown and I dislike her enough to hope we see it before her ass is kicked off.  ... Not that they will.  

[Avon.Blakes7]

4 minutes ago, ShawnaLanne said:

Not from here.  Ramona is awful. The show could only be better without her, she is infuriating to watch. Her compulsive lieing, cruel commentary,  and entitled crap are not fun to watch.  

Between her unhinged response to Bethany all season and her complete lack of remorse for destroying Dorinda's room, I say torpedo the twit.  It seems to me that she's close to a Kelly level breakdown and I dislike her enough to hope we see it before her ass is kicked off.  ... Not that they will.  

Amen! 

[WireWrap]

15 minutes ago, ShawnaLanne said:

Not from here.  Ramona is awful. The show could only be better without her, she is infuriating to watch. Her compulsive lieing, cruel commentary,  and entitled crap are not fun to watch.  

Between her unhinged response to Bethany all season and her complete lack of remorse for destroying Dorinda's room, I say torpedo the twit.  It seems to me that she's close to a Kelly level breakdown and I dislike her enough to hope we see it before her ass is kicked off.  ... Not that they will.  

She should have been fired when she threw the hard "plastic" glass at Kristen/cut her then tried (and thankfully failed) to throw the boat oar at her head a few seasons ago.

[sasha206]

23 minutes ago, motorcitymom65 said:

I think - and this is just based on the few people I know who have decided to not have children - is that it is so deeply personal and often very complex. It is often not simply "they decided to not have children", even if that is exactly what they did. Sometimes those decisions are agonizing, sometimes they are not. Sometimes even if they are fine with their decision, there are sparks of regret and the wondering of "what if". Sometimes they decide to not have children because of their situation, but know that in a different situation things would have been different. And women in our society who don't have children are still often looked at differently than those that do have kids. As if they have to justify their decision making process. I don't mean to speak for women who have made this decision because I am probably doing it poorly, but I just don't think it is that simple in all cases. 

This is so perfectly stated!

[breezy424]

42 minutes ago, motorcitymom65 said:

Agreed. I also think it was the way it was introduced. They weren't talking about Carole. She had been completely quiet during the entire discussion. She wasn't pushing back at Tinsley or offering her any advice. She was just listening. This is something that is no doubt deeply personal to Carole for a variety of reasons. She might be just fine with her decision (it sounds like she is) which doesn't mean that things wouldn't have been different if things would have been different. But it was just lobbed out there out of the blue. I think she was shocked, but I didn't think she was exactly offended. 

I don't think it was lobbed out of the blue.  She was talking about wanting to have children during the dinner conversation and made the statement that they all had children and suddenly realized mid sentence that Carole didn't.  Let's face it.  At the time Tinsley was in a highly emotional state of mind.  That's why she said what she said and I wouldn't doubt that maybe Carole and Tinsley had talked about this because they seem to have a growing friendship and like one another. 

I would say that Carole was a bit surprised but yeah, I don't think she was offended.

[motorcitymom65]

1 minute ago, breezy424 said:

I don't think it was lobbed out of the blue.  She was talking about wanting to have children during the dinner conversation and made the statement that they all had children and suddenly realized mid sentence that Carole didn't.  Let's face it.  At the time Tinsley was in a highly emotional state of mind.  That's why she said what she said and I wouldn't doubt that maybe Carole and Tinsley had talked about this because they seem to have a growing friendship and like one another. 

I would say that Carole was a bit surprised but yeah, I don't think she was offended.

I am not saying that Tinsley was wrong, or that she was being insensitive (although I can see how it could appear that way) but it did come out of the blue. She wasn't talking about children, except for in one small blurb. She said she wanted children, just like they all had children, and then looked at Carole and said "well, except you, but you didn't want children, so whatever". Just watched it again and it seems even more out of the blue. I don't think that Carole was offended, because I don't think she gets offended unless someone means to offend. I think she understands that Tinsley was very emotional, feeling cornered by the girls and the conversation, and she said something without thinking. But the thing is, that is a big thing to throw out there like that during dinner. Saying "you didn't want children" is just too simplistic and completely minimizes what Carole has gone through to lead her to where she is. But good for Carole for not getting butt hurt and making a thing out of it. 

[film noire]

3 hours ago, Wendy said:

She allowed this guy to treat her like crap meaning she didn't leave him after the first time he hit her

I don't think we're going to reach agreement about any of this (and that's cool) but I just have to say something about the comment above: not leaving after being hit the first time is not "allowing a guy" to "treat you like crap" -- and by "crap" you mean hit, because that's the crap part --  that's not how it works. A woman in an abusive relationship is not "allowing" anything; not the first time she's hit, or the last.

[breezy424]

4 minutes ago, motorcitymom65 said:

I am not saying that Tinsley was wrong, or that she was being insensitive (although I can see how it could appear that way) but it did come out of the blue. She wasn't talking about children, except for in one small blurb. She said she wanted children, just like they all had children, and then looked at Carole and said "well, except you, but you didn't want children, so whatever". Just watched it again and it seems even more out of the blue. I don't think that Carole was offended, because I don't think she gets offended unless someone means to offend. I think she understands that Tinsley was very emotional, feeling cornered by the girls and the conversation, and she said something without thinking. But the thing is, that is a big thing to throw out there like that during dinner. Saying "you didn't want children" is just too simplistic and completely minimizes what Carole has gone through to lead her to where she is. But good for Carole for not getting butt hurt and making a thing out of it. 

I got to disagree.  Went back and looked.  She said she wanted a relationship, a boyfriend, etc. She said she was forty f'ing one. I don't have children like all of you and then the Carole remark.  To me, she was saying that she wants to be married.  She wants kids.  And she doesn't have any of that. She feels alone.   I think it very hard on a person, well woman, who reaches their forties and wants to have kids, is in a bit of a desperate mode.  Even if she's frozen eggs. 

I don't think she 'intended' to minimize Carole.  She was just reaching that point with what the other women were saying and she was very frustrated.  I think if she wasn't so frustrated she wouldn't have said it in the first place.  Damn.  I was frustrated with them and it had nothing to do with me. 

[film noire]

2 hours ago, zoeysmom said:

I am always curious when someone chooses not to have children, like Carole, no matter what she wanted it was never going to happen naturally with her first husband, why they get so offended when someone mentions it?  

Carole said years ago she and Carolyn saw themselves raising their families together, spending Christmas and Easter and vacations together -- so (if Carolyn's marriage survived, and Anthony had not gotten sick again) it sounds like that was where she saw her life heading, and happily so.

And as to after -- maybe she couldn't fulfill that dream with another partner -- maybe she wanted not just children, but children only with him.  

1 hour ago, motorcitymom65 said:

But it was just lobbed out there out of the blue. I think she was shocked, but I didn't think she was exactly offended. 

I think - regardless of whether Carole found it abrupt or not - she saw Tinsley was very upset and handled it with a lot of grace. 

[motorcitymom65]

8 minutes ago, breezy424 said:

I got to disagree.  Went back and looked.  She said she wanted a relationship, a boyfriend, etc. She said she was forty f'ing one. I don't have children like all of you and then the Carole remark.  To me, she was saying that she wants to be married.  She wants kids.  And she doesn't have any of that. She feels alone.   I think it very hard on a person, well woman, who reaches their forties and wants to have kids, is in a bit of a desperate mode.  Even if she's frozen eggs. 

I don't think she 'intended' to minimize Carole.  She was just reaching that point with what the other women were saying and she was very frustrated.  I think if she wasn't so frustrated she wouldn't have said it in the first place.  Damn.  I was frustrated with them and it had nothing to do with me. 

As I have said, I don't think she meant anything offensive to Carole at all. But it did come out of the blue. Yes, all of the other stuff and then the Carole remark. Sorry, but having a relationship and a boyfriend is not having a child. Some want one without the other. The entire conversation was about one thing, and then the child thing. And Carole being the only one singled out. Out of the blue because the conversation was about poor decision making, bad relationships, wanting to move on, and then bang - children and Carole not wanting any. Out of the blue because I don't think that Carole anticipated that her childlessness would be brought up during dinner, regardless of what they had discussed before in private conversations. Out of the blue because Carole was letting her be and not weighing in on her choices or giving her advice. Just out of the blue with regard to Carole not wanting to have kids. 

6 minutes ago, film noire said:

Carole said years ago she and Carolyn saw themselves raising their families together, spending Christmas and Easter and vacations together -- so (if Carolyn's marriage survived, and Anthony had not gotten sick again) it sounds like that was where she saw her life heading, and happily so.

And as to after -- maybe she couldn't fulfill that dream with another partner -- maybe she wanted not just children, but children only with him.  

I think - regardless of whether Carole found it abrupt or not - she saw Tinsley was very upset and handled it with a lot of grace. 

Completely agree. 

[BBHN]

Quote

In all honesty the only who really gets rough press is Luann

Yeah, no, not really.

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 Saying "you didn't want children" is just too simplistic and completely minimizes what Carole has gone through to lead her to where she is. But good for Carole for not getting butt hurt and making a thing out of it. 

It definitely came out of the blue. But yes, good for Carole for handling it the way she did.

[RedheadZombie]

2 hours ago, zoeysmom said:

I am always curious when someone chooses not to have children, like Carole, no matter what she wanted it was never going to happen naturally with her first husband, why they get so offended when someone mentions it?  Certainly since Carole has been widowed she has had plenty of opportunities to have a child.  She always looks so hurt and gets so offended.  I haven't heard a reason why after her husband's death she could not adopt, conceive naturally or through in vitro.   There can be a difference between saying, like Ramona, "you don't have a child so you don't understand," but mentioning someone is without a child by choice  should not be in the same realm.  Same goes for Tinsley only I always hear her say she wants to be married and have children.

You can turn this around and ask why Tinsley is so emotional about her bio clock ticking and her lack of children?  Why didn't she adopt, or have her frozen eggs inseminated?  She could even afford hiring a gestational carrier.  So what's her problem anyway?  

Thats certainly sounds insensitive, doesn't it?  And I think Carole's reaction was because she was sitting quietly, when this emotional woman turns to her and ranted - and you didn't even want kids or whatever!

Frankly, and this isn't necessarily directed to ZM, life has led me on a path that didn't include having children. I wanted children always.  You bet I say I'm content and it was the right call, when asked.  Otherwise you are treated as pathetic.  It's nobody's damned business, but I did not want a child outside of a committed relationship, had no interest into tricking a guy to get knocked up, couldn't afford IVF, and sure as hell couldn't have afforded a gestational carrier.  But sure, tell me I have no right to have regret and think about what could have been. 

[breezy424]

23 minutes ago, motorcitymom65 said:

As I have said, I don't think she meant anything offensive to Carole at all. But it did come out of the blue. Yes, all of the other stuff and then the Carole remark. Sorry, but having a relationship and a boyfriend is not having a child. Some want one without the other. The entire conversation was about one thing, and then the child thing. And Carole being the only one singled out. Out of the blue because the conversation was about poor decision making, bad relationships, wanting to move on, and then bang - children and Carole not wanting any. Out of the blue because I don't think that Carole anticipated that her childlessness would be brought up during dinner, regardless of what they had discussed before in private conversations. Out of the blue because Carole was letting her be and not weighing in on her choices or giving her advice. Just out of the blue with regard to Carole not wanting to have kids. 

Completely agree. 

I think it was a moment of ranting.  Getting it all out.  Having children seems to be something that Tinsley wants badly.  Enough to freeze eggs.

Agree to disagree because of forum rules.  You know how much I like debating with you.

14 minutes ago, BBHN said:

Yeah, no, not really.

It definitely came out of the blue. But yes, good for Carole for handling it the way she did.

Mileage may vary when you look at the whole picture of the conversation.

[BBHN]

Quote

Mileage may vary when you look at the whole picture of the conversation.

I did, and I still see her comment to Carole came out of nowhere. But to each their own.

[zoeysmom]

3 hours ago, motorcitymom65 said:

I think - and this is just based on the few people I know who have decided to not have children - is that it is so deeply personal and often very complex. It is often not simply "they decided to not have children", even if that is exactly what they did. Sometimes those decisions are agonizing, sometimes they are not. Sometimes even if they are fine with their decision, there are sparks of regret and the wondering of "what if". Sometimes they decide to not have children because of their situation, but know that in a different situation things would have been different. And women in our society who don't have children are still often looked at differently than those that do have kids. As if they have to justify their decision making process. I don't mean to speak for women who have made this decision because I am probably doing it poorly, but I just don't think it is that simple in all cases. 

Oh FFS this is a woman who asks another woman on camera at what age she first had anal sex.  Talk about deeply personal.  Again there is a double standard about throwing it out there and having it thrown back at you.

I don't think she should be offended by the reference, "childless by choice".   Even Mario said about Ramona that he wanted a second child because he knew it would be difficult when Avery went away to college.  Ramona said it hurt too much having Avery.

[BBHN]

Quote

Oh FFS this is a woman who asks another woman on camera at what age she first had anal sex.  Talk about deeply personal.  Again there is a double standard about throwing it out there and having it thrown back at you.

Not quite the same issue...

[film noire]

1 hour ago, RedheadZombie said:

Frankly, and this isn't necessarily directed to ZM, life has led me on a path that didn't include having children. I wanted children always.  You bet I say I'm content and it was the right call, when asked.  Otherwise you are treated as pathetic.  It's nobody's damned business, but I did not want a child outside of a committed relationship, had no interest into tricking a guy to get knocked up, couldn't afford IVF, and sure as hell couldn't have afforded a gestational carrier.  But sure, tell me I have no right to have regret and think about what could have been. 

{{Redheadzombie }}

[zoeysmom]

10 minutes ago, BBHN said:

Not quite the same issue...

They are both personal questions.  One is not more personal that the other.  Let's just say Carole throws the question out there and the person freaks- or doesn't tell her what an ass she is to even ask.  Maybe her first anal sex or even sex experience was from rape or incest. 

Then there is  the old fall back she is on a reality show and is allowed to pick and choose what she wants to keep private.  I think that has been used a few times. 

See I don't care why Carole doesn't have children or if she truly ever wanted them, I just think she needs to stop acting as if it such a hurtful inquiry and part of some protected class.  She is with someone presently who claims to have children so there is a partner for her if she wants children.

[film noire]

28 minutes ago, zoeysmom said:

Oh FFS this is a woman who asks another woman on camera at what age she first had anal sex.  Talk about deeply personal.  

LOL -- okay, there is that ;)  --but I also think sex questions are something we titter about in a way we never do around the Kid Question.  That's always intense (past the age of eighteen) and questions about your womb are harder to laugh off/field graciously --for most people, I'm guessing - than questions about sex.

[BBHN]

Quote

They are both personal questions.  One is not more personal that the other.  Let's just say Carole throws the question out there and the person freaks- or doesn't tell her what an ass she is to even ask. 

Actually, one is. A question about sexual position isn't as personal as dealing with kids from a dead husband. A person can just easily dodge the question or politely say it's something personal.

Quote

Maybe her first anal sex or even sex experience was from rape or incest. 

So better these women not talk about anything related to sex/dating/relationships, because who knows what that might trigger? That seems a bit much.

Quote

Then there is  the old fall back she is on a reality show and is allowed to pick and choose what she wants to keep private.  I think that has been used a few times. 

Well, yes, all of these women are allowed to pick and choose what they keep private, especially when it relates to their past. We get to see what is happening in their current lives, but they can share what they want about their past, as they see fit.

Quote

See I don't care why Carole doesn't have children or if she truly ever wanted them, I just think she needs to stop acting as if it such a hurtful inquiry and part of some protected class. 

Who says she is acting about being hurt? Given her past history, it is her right to be hurt or to react and feel about it any way she chooses.

Quote

She is with someone presently who claims to have children so there is a partner for her if she wants children.

That is hardly the issue.

Edited July 3, 2017 by BBHN

[motorcitymom65]

5 hours ago, zoeysmom said:

Oh FFS this is a woman who asks another woman on camera at what age she first had anal sex.  Talk about deeply personal.  Again there is a double standard about throwing it out there and having it thrown back at you.

I don't think she should be offended by the reference, "childless by choice".   Even Mario said about Ramona that he wanted a second child because he knew it would be difficult when Avery went away to college.  Ramona said it hurt too much having Avery.

I am almost at a loss as to what to say. But will just stop with pointing out that the two things are hardly the same thing. 

[diadochokinesis]

2 minutes ago, motorcitymom65 said:

I am almost at a loss as to what to say. But will just stop with pointing out that the two things are hardly the same thing. 

Agree. They are two totally completely different things and also take place in two completely different situations. Those types of questions are typical during Truth or Dare. Knowing that Anthony had cancer their entire marriage and she hadn't remarried since, common sense tells you not to make an assumption that it wasn't because she didn't want them. For her, she probably didn't want to consider it while he had cancer so she didn't entertain the thought until it was too late.

@film noire -- I've had multiple friends that have struggled with infertility so I don't even go there anymore in asking. Plus, come on. It just smacks of "the only thing a woman is good for is to make babies and sandwiches" and I would like to think we have come further than that as a society. 

[motorcitymom65]

6 hours ago, zoeysmom said:

They are both personal questions.  One is not more personal that the other.  Let's just say Carole throws the question out there and the person freaks- or doesn't tell her what an ass she is to even ask.  Maybe her first anal sex or even sex experience was from rape or incest. 

Then there is  the old fall back she is on a reality show and is allowed to pick and choose what she wants to keep private.  I think that has been used a few times. 

See I don't care why Carole doesn't have children or if she truly ever wanted them, I just think she needs to stop acting as if it such a hurtful inquiry and part of some protected class.  She is with someone presently who claims to have children so there is a partner for her if she wants children.

One is more personal than the other. In completely different ways. I cannot believe I am actually in a converation that is comparing the life changing, soul searing, complex and often painful decision involved in having or not having a child to having anal sex. Anal sex is just anal sex. Have it, don't have it. Love it, don't love it. It it hardly a decision that most will be contemplating deeply into their old age, or regretting one way or another as they take their last breath. I find the comparison between the two things to be shocking to say the least. 

And also I should point out that they were playing a game with the questions. My advice is to take the dare if you don't want to tell the truth. 

I guess I will have to go and watch this again. Did I miss the part where Carole said that this was a hurtful inquiry and said something hateful to Tinsley? Did she throw out that she is part of a protected class to Tinsley and I just missed it? It seems like she is getting slammed for a reaction that she didn't have.  

Edited July 3, 2017 by motorcitymom65

[BBHN]

Quote

Anal sex is just anal sex. Have it, don't have it. Love it, don't love it. It it hardly a decision that most will be contemplating deeply into their old age, or regretting one way or another as they take their last breath. I find the comparison between the two things to be shocking to say the least. 

Or, as the former Countess would probably say (or at least she would have BT):

[shoegal]

23 hours ago, Ki-in said:

I think it's a little of both. I think she held onto the relationship especially in the beginning partly to upset Lu. Carole was a major bitch with her "I don't care about (Lu or) her niece's feelings." I think she has feelings for Adam that he doesn't for her (Skype session) , even though he's dull (duh sexy salad duh), I think she knows she'll never get young dick like his again and will be devastated when the relationship is over but she pushes him away to make it seem like it's her idea. If he dumps her it will be a field day for the HW's and fans and Carole's ego couldn't handle the public humiliation and I told you so's. Adam is gentleman enough to let her be the dumper. 

I think it's more that some of the HW's and fans can't handle the fact that Adam might actually love Carole, and vice versa, and they are upset they  are still together and they haven't gotten their humiliation and I told you so's.  Adam wasn't supposed to stay with Carole this long, he was supposed to dump her and have babies with some hot young thing and leave her in the dust.  He hasn't, they are still together and obviously care about each other, and clearly that wasn't supposed to happen.  

[Chicklet]

Are we really going to believe that the anal sex question wasn't tossed out by producers to liven up the conversation? I can believe that.  And if anyone ever asked me that I'd honestly have to say "who the hell cares?".

[zoeysmom]

Tinsley in partial meltdown state was commenting how everyone had children except Carole who was childless by choice.  Carole made a face and started to say something.

My original comment which once again got totally twisted had nothing to so with Tinsley or anyone asking Carole why she is childless by choice.  No one asked Carole, as in she was not expected to tender a response.  My comment is why Carole always seems so offended by the comment.  I also noted it is entirely different than when someone claims Carole doesn't understand because she doesn't have children.  TInsley wasn't saying that.

Carole is childless by choice as she has no children.  There is no indication she has ever attempted to have a child, or adopt a child or even have a foster child.  Saying had her sterile husband lived is not contrary to being childless by choice. At some point she would have made a choice whether or not to have children with him as the father biologically or legally.  One thing is for certain their choice to have children would not be through having sex.  I guess one could say Carole is childless by circumstance.  Carole chose over a period of the last 25 years not to birth, adopt or foster a child.  Carole's only opportunity to have a child was not just with Anthony.

As to it being such an invasion of Carole's privacy my point is Carole thinks nothing of asking someone at what age they had anal sex.  That is deeply personal to most.  Her cackling about it does not make it any less personal and offensive. 

So this wild ride down a path has nothing to do with Carole and the look on her face when someone refers to her as childless by choice.  Had Carole laid out a tale that she tried to have children, had a miscarriage, had a child die of SIDS and had  tried to adopt and could not, tried to foster and could not then it would be incorrect to refer to her as childless by choice.  Implied in such a statement is the person made a choice not to have children. There is really no explanation necessary.  She and Anthony chose not to have children because he was unwell. That was there choice in the moment and Carole has had nineteen years and counting to have a child.  She chose no to. It is not a condemnation and it really does not need further explanation. 

Again I think it is invasive and rude to publicly ask someone about their significant other's penis size or at what age they had anal sex.  I do not think it rude or invasive to refer to someone as being childless by choice,  It is not as if this group shies away from labels. 

As it pertains to this show I find it a very big double standard that the women who make the most awful comments, ask the most personally invasive questions, spread rumors are the same ones that cry foul the loudest when they get their feelings hurt.. 

[ZaldamoWilder]

On 7/1/2017 at 6:52 PM, HunterHunted said:

In the grand scheme of things, none of these people are really famous in any way that is truly significant. They don't have to travel with security. They can do their own shopping. They aren't mobbed by fans when they step outside. They don't have to make reservations under false names, buy out an entire restaurant for an evening, or buy out an entire hotel floor in order to eat a meal in peace or have a decent nights rest.

The vast majority of housewives and Bravolebrities join their shows as almost complete unknowns, meaning Tinsley's limited celebrity or familiarity is 200% higher than Ramona's or LuAnn's in season 1 before any of the episodes had aired. Back then, she was the exact kind of person Bravo hoped they could cast. They didn't. If Bravo had been able to get Tinsley 10 years ago, almost every last one of these women would have been champing at the bit to film with her. She's still well known in the circles many of the women travel in. And for all of the disgrace of being arrested most of the publications seem to be describing her relationship with Nico in a way more closely aligns with Tinsley's view, that it was a very unstable abusive relationship. So I view the women's awkwardness and discomfort with Tinsley's circumstances less as a measure of her lack of fame and familiarity and more a sign of the wives changed circumstances. When they were nobodies, Ramona or Jill would have been crowing about hanging out with Tinsley. Now that they are minor somebodies, like Tinsley, their egos and narcissism prevent them from giving a crap. Though I also think major discomfort with the subject of domestic violence is at play too. 

I can give you a list of everyone I had heard of before they were cast:

• Bethenny because of Martha Stewart's Apprentice, which was canceled even though it had ratings that were 3 times higher than RHoNY
• Tinsley, but I used to comment a ton on Gawker during her heyday
• Cynthia Bailey
• Kandi Burruss
• Kim Fields
• Kim and Kyle Richards
• Camille Grammer
• Lisa Rinna
• Joanna Krupa

These are some of the wives that I was familiar with aspects of their lives, but not them:

• Gilles Bensimon, but not Kelly
• Lee Radziwill, but not Anthony or Carole
• Lisa Wu because of Keith Sweat
• Kordell Stewart, but not Porsha
• The Maloofs, but not Adrienne
• Bobby Brown's legal issues, but not his attorney Phaedra Parks
• Eddie Cibrian's cheating, but not Brandi Glanville or Scheana
• The Zanucks, but not Marisa
• J. P. Morgan, but not J. A. Morgan or Sonja

Even someone like Heather Dubrow who had been in 2 prime time sitcoms had a Q Score that was basically zero. Another example might be the drag queens that Andy has been putting behind the bar on WWHL. Some of them are huge stars in queer communities and fans of Drag Race, but clearly not famous enough to sit down in a guest chair on WWHL. However, even the most famous Bravolebrity isn't very well known. How much did it make Kenya Moore's day when she found out Beyoncé was a fan? Do you think Beyoncé cared about the reverse? Nope.

As always, I feel like Billy on the Street is the best argument to demonstrate how insignificant any housewives fame is or isn't. 

Dude, the best I could do was:  oh, that's um.....Anna Faris' husband.   Poor Chris.  Besides that, there are a ton of Chrises out right now, right?  Pine, Pratt, Klein, I'm missing at least two more.  It's not a good time to be a Chris lol.

On 7/1/2017 at 10:06 PM, RedheadZombie said:

Even worse - when the bathroom exit door requires one to pull on a handle.  I am an unashamed foot flusher. I don't care if the flusher is way up in the air, my foot hits it.  I am sorry to those who thoughtlessly touch the same knob with their hand.    I carefully wash my hands, shut the water off with my arm, dry my hands and then push with my arm or even kick the door open with my foot.  Pull open doors are fine if you can use your used papertowel to do it.  But bathrooms with antiquated blow dryers or exit doors far away enough I didn't realize I needed to save my towel, require me to become a contortionist and use my clothing as a barrier.  It just seems so ridiculous  to touch an area dirtier than the toilet seat after just having washed my hands, and since my hands are still slightly damp, they more easily pick up germs from the filthy knobs.  Otherwise, I'm not germ phobic in a bathroom.  I don't even use the paper seat covers.  Cell phones and keyboards have been cultured of millions more germs than toilet seats. 

My people.   Picture it, I'm at Olive Garden against my will last Tuesday.  I'm done washing my hands and there are no paper towels left in the dispenser.   Ya'll I was trapped.  I didn't even have the loose hem of a garment to be my defacto door opener.   I thought, should I be that chick and scream for help when it's not an emergency?  As I teetered on the brink of that decision, mercifully a lady walked in with a baby and saved me.   She giggled, but she understood.   As a thank you I reported to the podium captain that the restroom was in dire need of a paper towel refill or they'd have another crisis on their hands (intended).

On 7/1/2017 at 11:22 PM, howiveaddict said:

I put the days personal products in my suitcase so that the housekeeper has to put new ones out for the next day.  That way I have more to donate.  I have a co worker who also manages a non profit that has shower for homeless.  He has left a big plastic box in our break room for us to put donations.  One time I stayed in a family suite that had the bathroom shelfs stocked with items.  I cleaned out both bathrooms for donations before we left.  They can also use razors, cold medicine, tylenol small sizes from dollar stores.  At Christmas I bought a bunch of dollar tree stuff and gave it to him.

 

Oh and to get back on topic,  my bathroom has an outlet and I bet the one LuAnn used does too.  Not at the price that cabin cost.  She was just being her usual, Call me Mrs DAngostino, self.

So what you're saying is you're a thief basically.  Lmao!!!!   I now dub thee RobinHood of Red Roof.   Go forth and collect Wet Ones!   ;P 

9 hours ago, zoeysmom said:

They are both personal questions.  One is not more personal that the other.  Let's just say Carole throws the question out there and the person freaks- or doesn't tell her what an ass she is to even ask.  Maybe her first anal sex or even sex experience was from rape or incest. 

Then there is  the old fall back she is on a reality show and is allowed to pick and choose what she wants to keep private.  I think that has been used a few times. 

See I don't care why Carole doesn't have children or if she truly ever wanted them, I just think she needs to stop acting as if it such a hurtful inquiry and part of some protected class.  She is with someone presently who claims to have children so there is a partner for her if she wants children.

Ah but the why is essential in the context of Tinsley's assumptions.  The fact is it wasn't her choice it was her circumstance.   A circumstance from tragedy, which makes it hurtful.   I mean I get that generally it may not be the worst thing of all time ever in the world, but for Carole, at the very least it's directly linked to the worst thing that's ever happened to her.     And unless one is absolutely sure about the circumstances, even if one is, it has the potential to be a really insensitive thing to comment on at all let alone for the benefit of a woe is me argument.  I didn't see offense on Carole's face but it was more than surprise, a slight recoil.  

[lunastartron]

16 hours ago, sasha206 said:

Wow, that's frightening.  And given all of this, it's especially galling how dismissive the women were.

Yes, and immediately prior to the incident during which he tore up her car while she was trapped inside, he apparently tried to smother her with a pillow.

This is notable because I keep reading upthread sporadic asides about how the abuse was mutual. When police arrived after the aforementioned episode, they found Fanjul scratched up and blood on said pillow. Likewise, another occasion in which he incurred injuries was when the neighbor witnessed him tackling her to the ground and hitting her head against the pavement and felt the attack was serious enough to warrant involving themselves by calling the authorities. 

All of which connotes, for me, "self-defense" as opposed to "mutual combat." 

9 hours ago, zoeysmom said:

Oh FFS this is a woman who asks another woman on camera at what age she first had anal sex.  Talk about deeply personal.  Again there is a double standard about throwing it out there and having it thrown back at you.

I don't think she should be offended by the reference, "childless by choice".   Even Mario said about Ramona that he wanted a second child because he knew it would be difficult when Avery went away to college.  Ramona said it hurt too much having Avery.

Maybe Tinsley should have just said that she assumed Carole's body couldn't push out babies, skinny as it is. Carole thought that was acceptable commentary on motherhood or lack thereof when it came to Jules. 

[shoegal]

9 minutes ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

Dude, the best I could do was:  oh, that's um.....Anna Faris' husband.   Poor Chris.  Besides that, there are a ton of Chrises out right now, right?  Pine, Pratt, Klein, I'm missing at least two more.  It's not a good time to be a Chris lol.

My people.   Picture it, I'm at Olive Garden against my will last Tuesday.  I'm done washing my hands and there are no paper towels left in the dispenser.   Ya'll I was trapped.  I didn't even have the loose hem of a garment to be my defacto door opener.   I thought, should I be that chick and scream for help when it's not an emergency?  As I teetered on the brink of that decision, mercifully a lady walked in with a baby and saved me.   She giggled, but she understood.   As a thank you I reported to the podium captain that the restroom was in dire need of a paper towel refill or they'd have another crisis on their hands (intended).

So what you're saying is you're a thief basically.  Lmao!!!!   I now dub thee RobinHood of Red Roof.   Go forth and collect Wet Ones!   ;P 

Ah but the why is essential in the context of Tinsley's assumptions.  The fact is it wasn't her choice it was her circumstance.   A circumstance from tragedy, which makes it hurtful.   I mean I get that generally it may not be the worst thing of all time ever in the world, but for Carole, at the very least it's directly linked to the worst thing that's ever happened to her.     And unless one is absolutely sure about the circumstances, even if one is, it has the potential to be a really insensitive thing to comment on at all let alone for the benefit of a woe is me argument.  I didn't see offense on Carole's face but it was more than surprise, a slight recoil.  

Yeah, I'm not understanding this idea that Carole was offended,  it was more of a reaction to the force in which Tinsley was speaking.  Where did Carole say she was offended by the suggestion that she didn't want a child?

[sasha206]

11 minutes ago, lunastartron said:

Yes, and immediately prior to the incident during which he tore up her car while she was trapped inside, he apparently tried to smother her with a pillow.

This is notable because I keep reading upthread sporadic asides about how the abuse was mutual. When police arrived after the aforementioned episode, they found Fanjul scratched up and blood on said pillow. Likewise, another occasion in which he incurred injuries was when the neighbor witnessed him tackling her to the ground and hitting her head against the pavement and felt the attack was serious enough to warrant involving themselves by calling the authorities. 

All of which connotes, for me, "self-defense" as opposed to "mutual combat." 

 

Admittedly, I was one of those assholes doubting her before I actually did some research; of course, bad on me not to even research before I commented.  What happened to her truly is frightening.  

[sasha206]

I also think that when there's a woman of means who is getting abused with no children involved, sympathy tends to go way down because we can't understand why don't extricate themselves from the situation. 

And that's probably entirely unfair and not understanding of the cycle of abuse and the effect it has on the victim.

[tribeca]

Some of us don't really choose not to have children life decides for us.  Some times it's very sad especially when you go on social media and see everyone has what you can't have and have always wanted.  The worst is when people tell you they have a life since they have children. 

However I agree that Tinsley was not trying to be mean or offend carol.  I posted earlier that I was disappointed in the lack of empathy for Tinsley.  Watched the episode again and still feel the same way. 

[motorcitymom65]

2 hours ago, shoegal said:

I think it's more that some of the HW's and fans can't handle the fact that Adam might actually love Carole, and vice versa, and they are upset they  are still together and they haven't gotten their humiliation and I told you so's.  Adam wasn't supposed to stay with Carole this long, he was supposed to dump her and have babies with some hot young thing and leave her in the dust.  He hasn't, they are still together and obviously care about each other, and clearly that wasn't supposed to happen.  

 

 

Edited July 3, 2017 by motorcitymom65