Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[ElizaD]

That comment about Sam's future made me think about the theory that he gets Highgarden. I don't know if Bradley would have been told Sam's fate this early, though.

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, ElizaD said:

That comment about Sam's future made me think about the theory that he gets Highgarden. I don't know if Bradley would have been told Sam's fate this early, though.

Unspoiled fans have been thinking the same thing since Dickon and Randyll got BBQed, so I wouldn't read anything into it.

ETA: A poster in the WOTW comments section said that a friend of theirs snapped Peter Dinklage in Belfast. Too early for filming. Costume fitting, maybe?

Edited September 5, 2017 by Eyes High

[Nash]

4 hours ago, ElizaD said:

That comment about Sam's future made me think about the theory that he gets Highgarden. I don't know if Bradley would have been told Sam's fate this early, though.

Nice idea but it has a few questions attached. Presuming Sam survives, wouldn't he rather a good sized well stocked library? Will there be a Highgarden? If there is will it be much of a gift as the Lannisters looted it pretty professionally and the peasants will have legged it?

And that presumes the old order will be replicated with only a few tweaks.....I don't expect Revolution and think Daenery's commitment to change also includes optional death by dragonfire for the refuseniks. 

[TarotQueen]

17 hours ago, MadMouse said:

The show loves callbacks, so I wouldn't be surprised if we don't get something similar to Ned and Cersei. If there was one man who could feel sympathy to Cersei being in love with the wrong man, it was Ned. And if there's one man who could understand Jon's conflict its Jaime.

I must be being thick right now (long day) but can you elaborate on the meaning of that last sentence?  I'm not getting it but it seems interesting ...

[Blonde Gator]

3 minutes ago, TarotQueen said:

I must be being thick right now (long day) but can you elaborate on the meaning of that last sentence?  I'm not getting it but it seems interesting ...

To quote a song...."if loving you is wrong, I don't want to be right".

Jaime (but not yet Jon) knows love between relatives is forbidden.  But can't help himself, nor stop that mad love.   I think that's what Madmouse was getting at. 

Incest.  Forbidden love.  Inescapable attraction.  And so forth. 

Jon & Dany have the very same attributes to their love as do Cersei & Jaime (except Dany's not a galactic bitch). 

[Nash]

It seems to have been pretty much de rigeur in the Targaryen dynasty! And not all of them were as mad as a box of frogs. Only the ones with a tendency towards pyromania......

Yeah, this ones a minefield. Even if GRRM took pains to make it clear that this sort of thing was generally not an issue in Westeros, the vast majority of modern readers are going to react, well uncomfortably. 

[Blonde Gator]

47 minutes ago, Nash said:

It seems to have been pretty much de rigeur in the Targaryen dynasty! And not all of them were as mad as a box of frogs. Only the ones with a tendency towards pyromania......

Yeah, this ones a minefield. Even if GRRM took pains to make it clear that this sort of thing was generally not an issue in Westeros, the vast majority of modern readers are going to react, well uncomfortably. 

Probably GRRM's point.  He likes doing that, it seems.  :)

[MadMouse]

1 hour ago, Blonde Gator said:

To quote a song...."if loving you is wrong, I don't want to be right".

Jaime (but not yet Jon) knows love between relatives is forbidden.  But can't help himself, nor stop that mad love.   I think that's what Madmouse was getting at. 

Incest.  Forbidden love.  Inescapable attraction.  And so forth. 

Jon & Dany have the very same attributes to their love as do Cersei & Jaime (except Dany's not a galactic bitch). 

Yeah, but I'm one of the few people who think the conflict and struggle about incest and birthright will come from external sources not from Jon himself. He's far too gone down the rabbit hole of being in love for this to be a real issue for him. Remember back in the first season Jaime tried to warn about the NW in own his asshole way, so many oaths. And since Ned is gone who else in series greatest act is also considered their greatest shame by people in general.

 

58 minutes ago, Nash said:

It seems to have been pretty much de rigeur in the Targaryen dynasty! And not all of them were as mad as a box of frogs. Only the ones with a tendency towards pyromania......

Yeah, this ones a minefield. Even if GRRM took pains to make it clear that this sort of thing was generally not an issue in Westeros, the vast majority of modern readers are going to react, well uncomfortably. 

Most people still don't know who Rhaegar was. Or how Dany and Jon are related. I had a friend at a Labor Day BBQ say they were brother and sister. Fans know the Targs and other houses married that way but the general audience is clueless. They're working off a book outline and fully believe book Jon won't give a shit, he's always questioned his place in the world and once he finds out no way he lets her go. But they can't do that on a TV show and Jaime is the perfect vehicle for that.

[Nash]

Good point re the TV audience; I presume that GOT on TV has made more impact than LOTR in the cinema? But as you suggest the vast majority of the viewers have not read the books and are going by what they see. 

Thats not a problem except that - one or two looks and a comment on TV may fill in for an entire chapter of angst in book 3 part 2, where Sam agonises over reading a scroll or eating another roast parsnip. That's a ludicrous example of course, roast parsnips are against the vow of the Nights Watch. 

Edited September 5, 2017 by Nash
.

[TarotQueen]

2 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

To quote a song...."if loving you is wrong, I don't want to be right".

Jaime (but not yet Jon) knows love between relatives is forbidden.  But can't help himself, nor stop that mad love.   I think that's what Madmouse was getting at. 

Incest.  Forbidden love.  Inescapable attraction.  And so forth. 

Jon & Dany have the very same attributes to their love as do Cersei & Jaime (except Dany's not a galactic bitch). 

Oh thats why I didnt get it, because I dont think thats gonna end up mattering to Jon or Dany or the world at large.  

Edited September 5, 2017 by TarotQueen

[MadMouse]

19 minutes ago, TarotQueen said:

Oh thats why I didnt get it, because I dont think thats gonna end up mattering to Jon or Dany or the world at large.  

They have to address it on the show, they've haven't really talked about Targ or the general incest marriages on the show. And the only other example is one that has been presented in a negative light. That's why I think the conflict with come from other people not Jon or Dany. Its not like they'll have Dany say I expected to marry my brother's son already or Sansa my namesake married her uncle. So they need a character who's been in this situation to be the voice of reason so to speak. 

[TarotQueen]

I don't see that at all.  I don't think that aunt/nephew is at all analogous to brother/sister, or that it requires any sort of addressing.

I say that because if I knew an aunt/nephew couple in RL, I wouldn't care, and I don't think I'm alone on that.  First, it's none of my business, and second, its further apart than even first cousins, which aren't genetically indisposed and are also pretty accepted in most of the rest of the world even if we give them a lot of labels here in the states (trailer trash, hillbilly etc).  The most that might occur to me is to wonder if there might be some sort of unfortunate power imbalance, but that would only apply to a traditionally aged aunt and nephew, where the aunt was born in the same generation as her sister or brother. 

So not even caring in modern life, why would it be a BFD in a medieval fantasy?  I'm going to be disappointed if they waste time on it TBH  ... it just seems so basic. 

Edited September 6, 2017 by TarotQueen
to add the word brother, because duh, your father's sister can be your aunt too

[Enigma X]

I am a-ok with Dany and Jon but a niece/nephew shares more dna with each other than first cousins.

 

[TarotQueen]

I stand corrected ... clearly didn't do the math on that one.  Thanks!

[Stella]

Doesn't look like a great idea at all to me.

[MadMouse]

48 minutes ago, TarotQueen said:

I don't see that at all.  I don't think that aunt/nephew is at all analogous to brother/sister, or that it requires any sort of addressing.

I say that because if I knew an aunt/nephew couple in RL, I wouldn't care, and I don't think I'm alone on that.  First, it's none of my business, and second, its further apart than even first cousins, which aren't genetically indisposed and are also pretty accepted in most of the rest of the world even if we give them a lot of labels here in the states (trailer trash, hillbilly etc).  The most that might occur to me is to wonder if there might be some sort of unfortunate power imbalance, but that would only apply to a traditionally aged aunt and nephew, where the aunt was born in the same generation as her sister or brother. 

So not even caring in modern life, why would it be a BFD in a medieval fantasy?  I'm going to be disappointed if they waste time on it TBH  ... it just seems so basic. 

Because of the general audience, incest is super taboo in our society and to have the two main heroes of the story just shrugging their shoulders and saying whatever won't fly. The majority of people watching the show has the attention span of a gnat and by reading reactions of those fans they think its wrong or gross. These are the same people who didn't notice the subtlety of when Dany forbid Jon to go on the wight hunt and cheered him standing up to her. Do you really think they could handle two characters just being okay with it. Its the same reason all the characters have been white washed, they're making a show to appeal to the widest audience possible.

[madam magpie]

I think it's less incest that will be the problem for the characters and more the flip of the power dynamic and the mistrust that brings on multiple sides. I wonder if Dany will feel ambushed if she learns this info at Winterfell. She might also feel like a relationship with Jon is a throwback to the Targaryen crazy. And she'll likely worry that he plans to usurp her. Jon will probably feel betrayed by Ned and unsure about his place at Winterfell and society at large. He is who he is and won't suddenly feel like Aegon Targaryen when he's always been Jon Snow. I expect that initially they'll both look at each other differently. But I don't expect the story to end that way.

As for the audience, I don't know. Jon and Dany have no idea they're related. They weren't children together. They don't share formative memories or experiences. They never meant anything at all to each other before they were allies and lovers. That's they only way they know each other. 

Incest is super taboo in our society, but why? Is it really only DNA? Passing on awful diseases and such is a problem, but even those diseases aren't caused by incest. They're just more likely to manifest in limited genetic pools. Or is it because we understand that adding a sexual component to those formative relationships is psychologically damaging? I find myself not caring at all that they're related except that it's tragic for the characters. I can't be the only one.

Edited September 6, 2017 by madam magpie

[MadMouse]

15 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I think it's less incest that will be the problem for the characters and more the flip of the power dynamic and the mistrust that brings on multiple sides. I wonder if Dany will feel ambushed if she learns this info at Winterfell. She might also feel like a relationship with him is a throwback to the Targaryen crazy. And she'll likely worry that he plans to usurp her. Jon will probably feel betrayed by Ned and unsure about his place at Winterfell and society at large. He is who he is and won't suddenly feel like Aegon Targaryen when he's always been Jon Snow. I expect that initially they'll both loo and each other differently. But I don't expect the story to end that way.

As for the audience, I don't know. Jon and Dany have no idea they're related. They weren't children together. They don't share formative memories or experiences. They never meant anything at all to each other before they were allies and lovers. That's they only way they know each other. 

Incest is super taboo in our society, but why? Is it really only DNA? Passing on awful diseases and such is a problem, but even those diseases aren't caused by incest. They're just more likely to manifest in limited genetic pools. Or is it because we understand that adding a sexual component to those formative relationships is psychologically damaging? I find myself not caring at all that they're related except that it's tragic for the characters. I can't be the only one.

That's why I think whatever conflict will come from other people. All the those Northern and Vale lords who shit on the crazy Targs, well now our King is the rightful heir you don't think they would be trying to shove a daughter or granddaughter in his bed. On Dany's side Tyrion or playing up that they lords might want him because he's not a foreign whore. Or Jon can produce an heir and he needs to marry someone else.

Dany all the sudden thinking Jon is going to make a play for the throne would go against every action and word of his she's seen. I'm sure it'll make her reexamine things since so much of her life has been dedicated to taking whats rightfully hers and now its not. Her being worried about the incest is the least likely, she expected to marry her brother's son and then Viserys. I do think people are reading how this impact Jon wrong, yes Ned lied to him but he also knows he had three parents who loved him. Going from a motherless bastard to that isn't a negative. And again Aemon's words will make more sense to him now that he's a man not the boy who first heard them. I do think your right about him being Jon Snow, his parents were Rhaegar and Lyanna, his father was Ned but he's a Snow. Both Targaryen and Stark like he told Theon. 

[madam magpie]

29 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

That's why I think whatever conflict will come from other people. All the those Northern and Vale lords who shit on the crazy Targs, well now our King is the rightful heir you don't think they would be trying to shove a daughter or granddaughter in his bed. On Dany's side Tyrion or playing up that they lords might want him because he's not a foreign whore. Or Jon can produce an heir and he needs to marry someone else.

Dany all the sudden thinking Jon is going to make a play for the throne would go against every action and word of his she's seen. I'm sure it'll make her reexamine things since so much of her life has been dedicated to taking whats rightfully hers and now its not. Her being worried about the incest is the least likely, she expected to marry her brother's son and then Viserys. I do think people are reading how this impact Jon wrong, yes Ned lied to him but he also knows he had three parents who loved him. Going from a motherless bastard to that isn't a negative. And again Aemon's words will make more sense to him now that he's a man not the boy who first heard them. I do think your right about him being Jon Snow, his parents were Rhaegar and Lyanna, his father was Ned but he's a Snow. Both Targaryen and Stark like he told Theon. 

I do think Dany will have a moment of suspicion about it all. Why is this just coming out now? Especially if she's put herself in a vulnerable position strategically because she's fallen for Jon and trusts him. That suspicion can easily lead to more suspicion about his claim to the throne. She also may doubt herself since it's no longer her birthright, a belief that has informed all of her decisions thus far.

I think it's possible she won't be thrilled that they're related. She may not be icked out by it, but her having once believed she might marry her brother doesn't sway me. Her brother was a creepy abuser who sold her to a violent stranger and threatened to let all the Dothraki rape her. He himself molested and hit her, and she was initially cowed by him. It wasn't until this season that I became sure Dany herself was fully aware of how she was treated by Viserys and Drogo. She knows and owns what they did to her, and even if her feelings are complicated by the fact that they were also her protectors, she's not blind about either of them. So the fact that at one time she expected to marry her brother doesn't seem like a reason she won't be disconcerted by the news that she's unwittingly sleeping with her nephew. 

That said, I fully expect her to get over it.

I can't imagine Jon won't feel betrayed. I expect him to get over that too, but it would be so strange for it never to come up.

Edited September 6, 2017 by madam magpie

[Nash]

In terms of audience reaction, the J&D relationship won't exist in a vacuum, other plotlines and the deaths of several major / poplar characters will happen around it.

theres no doubt that Outraged of Tunbridge Wells will be outraged but to an element it's more like "he's fit, she's hot, get it on". I'm sure a bit of nudity will help the ratings. 

The key thing will be that the relationship isn't cohersive, abusive and without a major age difference. But you can bet that HBO are watching the forums for discussions like this and that the cast will be well briefed on a "line to follow" and the PR team will be on the alert limit any perceived damage. 

As for the plot impact - I'm cynical....the love affair will wobble or bloom depending upon the demands of the plot......

[MadMouse]

1 hour ago, madam magpie said:

I do think Dany will have a moment of suspicion about it all. Why is this just coming out now? Especially if she's put herself in a vulnerable position strategically because she's fallen for Jon and trusts him. That suspicion can easily lead to more suspicion about his claim to the throne. She also may doubt herself since it's no longer her birthright, a belief that has informed all of her decisions thus far.

I think it's possible she won't be thrilled that they're related. She may not be icked out by it, but her having once believed she might marry her brother doesn't sway me. Her brother was a creepy abuser who sold her to a violent stranger and threatened to let all the Dothraki rape her. He himself molested and hit her, and she was initially cowed by him. It wasn't until this season that I became sure Dany herself was fully aware of how she was treated by Viserys and Drogo. She knows and owns what they did to her, and even if her feelings are complicated by the fact that they were also her protectors, she's not blind about either of them. So the fact that at one time she expected to marry her brother doesn't seem like a reason she won't be disconcerted by the news that she's unwittingly sleeping with her nephew. 

That said, I fully expect her to get over it.

I can't imagine Jon won't feel betrayed. I expect him to get over that too, but it would be so strange for it never to come up.

I think they'll both question whether it was true, Jon more than Dany because of what she knows about Rhaegar. If Jon had bent the knee privately I could see her being suspicious but he informed the whole realm she's his Queen. Think about their first meeting he basically told her to shove her birthright up her ass. Not the actions of a man who was playing her.

I don't buy the incest will bother her, yeah Viserys was an asshole but if Rhaegar was still alive and single she would have jumped at the prospect. And here's Jon who's acted like every story she's heard of Rhaegar right front in of her and he's his son too. Someone she again she expected to marry in first place not Viserys.  Just that knowledge would make her womb come alive.

I agree, they'll both move past it my guess in less than an episode and it wont be a big deal, the more the show hypes conflict it turns out to be nothing. I just don't believe the major conflict or struggle will be them accepting it, more other people using it against them.

Let be clear I think any conflict and how its resolved will done to make the general audience okay with the nature of the relationship.

Edited September 6, 2017 by MadMouse

[bubble sparkly]

I wouldn't be shocked if they have Sansa or Sam specifically remInd Jon that there have been other Stark matches between similar relatives (I think someone said there were a few uncle / niece). Try to hammer it home to the audience that D+J is not supposed to be bro/sis gross, because if Starks do it then it's okay etc.

[herbz]

I can see Dany worrying less about the incest itself and more about the political consequences of a match if Jon's parentage becomes common knowledge- the Targaryen dynasty did a lot of harm in Westeros and the other houses were suspicious and resentful of them at least in part because of their tendency to 'keep bloodlines pure' and consolidate power only within their own family. I think somebody like Tyrion (who's already tried to counsel Dany against going full Targaryen with the dragons) would see a PR downside to a restoration with an incestuous component. Having said that, if Jon keeps it quiet that issue is sidestepped entirely. 

Also, Dany and Jon actually are genetically closer to siblings than aunt/nephew because of all the inbreeding further back in the family line. I don't think the show will go there (I expect the books to though) but again, somebody like Tyrion who has already broached the subject of the succession might wonder if it's for the best to continue a system where the gods toss a coin when a heir is born to determine whether the next ruler is sane or not.

I agree that it doesn't seem true to characterisation for most of the conflict to come from Dany and Jon themselves. They'll have their individual identity crises, but the idea that Jon would care about the Iron Throne in any way doesn't make much sense to me. 

[Chiny11]

5 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

I wouldn't be shocked if they have Sansa or Sam specifically remInd Jon that there have been other Stark matches between similar relatives (I think someone said there were a few uncle / niece). Try to hammer it home to the audience that D+J is not supposed to be bro/sis gross, because if Starks do it then it's okay etc.

All of this. I totally agree. 

When I  see the way they rushed through stuff this season (which had 7 episodes), I believe that next season's pace will be on steroids. Guys, there are only 6 episodes left and there is so much to cover...even if the episodes are longer. 

 

Like another poster mentioned, this "Dany/Jon angst because of being related etc" topic will be dealt with in one episode (doubt if it would even take up a whole episode). 

Edited September 6, 2017 by Chiny11

[John Potts]

A couple of predictions:

Dany is pregnant, marries Jon (which makes sense on a geo-political level) and then dies in childbirth, like her (and for that matter, Jon's) mother did. Jon rules on alone as the last Targaryen. Whether the reveal of his parentage happens before or after they wed is another matter (I could see it going either way, but I'd guess after, for the added Jon angst).

I have a question (I've read the Books, but can't be sure I've remembered exactly): Aren't the Golden Company the one that is said to hold some contracts that "Are written in blood" (and are - as of Book 5 - currently serving a character who doesn't exist in the show, IIRC)? If so, is there any chance they will actually serve a Queen who is the usurper of a usurper (and her putative husband who's also a usurper)? But assuming I'm right, I can see Euron's triumphant return from Essos, he marries Cersei... and she then has an "accident" that leaves him to seize the throne. Euron cackles as he sends his army forth to defeat the depleted Targaryen forces... and the Golden Company promptly defects to Team Targ and turns a certain victory for Team Euron into a victory for Team Targ. Everything looks happy for Jon when he learns of Dany's death (probably on Dragonstone, even more reflecting her birth). Jon continues to mope alone for the rest of his life.

But WTF do I know - I'd predicted both Littlefinger AND Walder Frey making it to the end!
.

On ‎29‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 0:26 AM, ParadoxLost said:

I disagree.  Jon has been hiding his resurrection from those not aware of it.

Not so much hiding it, more... not mentioning it. In the unlikely event of anyone asking, "Hey, weren't you stabbed to death by the Night Watch?" he'd probably admit to it.

ETA: Though Euron killing Cersei doesn't really fulfil the Valonquar Prophecy, unless you say that it just requires A little brother, not specifically HER little brother. Maybe Euron imprisons her AND Jamie in the same cell and he strangles her? It's a theory, there are worse ones out there!

Edited September 6, 2017 by John Potts

[YaddaYadda]

20 minutes ago, John Potts said:

Aren't the Golden Company the one that is said to hold some contracts that "Are written in blood"

The way it goes is the Golden Company broke its contract with Myr and everyone is very surprised about it because the GC doesn't break contracts, so when Tyrion asks about that Illyrio replies "some contracts are writ in ink, and some in blood." 

I've been wondering who the captain-general of the Golden Company is and how long they will be sticking with Cersei. I can see the Golden Company turning its attentions north at some point in the books, not because they want to, but since Jon Con was close enough to Rhaegar, he might know all about the PtwP.

I just want Cersei to be screwed over. My most satisfying end to the show (specifically) will be Cersei's death. 

Edited September 6, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Ocean Chick]

So... there's a strong line of crazy in her bloodline.  And a strong line of crazy in his bloodline.  Yeah... not seeing much of an upside with this relationship.

[herbz]

7 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

The way it goes is the Golden Company broke its contract with Myr and everyone is very surprised about it because the GC doesn't break contracts, so when Tyrion asks about that Illyrio replies "some contracts are writ in ink, and some in blood." 

I've been wondering who the captain-general of the Golden Company is and how long they will be sticking with Cersei. I can see the Golden Company turning its attentions north at some point in the books, not because they want to, but since Jon Con was close enough to Rhaegar, he might know all about the PtwP.

I just want Cersei to be screwed over. My most satisfying end to the show (specifically) will be Cersei's death. 

I could see the show version of this playing out in a loosely similar fashion- Cersei's chastising of Jaime that he never listened to Tywin about the importance of gold might come back to bite her, because she's not a soldier or a commander and won't understand that sometimes people fight for reasons deeper than gold. It wouldn't be too hard to throw in a little of the Golden Company's book history and twist it to have them eventually turn for the Targaryens/to fight against the Others. 

I think I want Cersei's death to be small. It would be tempting to have her go out all guns blazing in some epic supervillain last ditch attempt to hold on to power, but the true baddies of this series (Tywin, Ramsey, Littlefinger etc) haven't gone out in flames, they've gone out rather pathetically, undone by their own actions. 

[WearyTraveler]

I don't care if Cersei's death is big or small, as long as she goes knowing that all the people she hates are happy.  I want her to be thoroughly defeated and betrayed by everyone she ever trusted (in the books her fall is deliciously long and gradual and I loved every minute of it).  I want her to go fully knowing she was the engineer of her own fall and that she's not even 10% as smart as she thinks she is.  And I want Jaimie to be the Valonqar and kill her slooooowwwwly.

Edited September 7, 2017 by WearyTraveler

[SimoneS]

I found Littlefinger's death underwhelming and I suspect that I will find Cersei's death to be the same. Cersei deserves a painful tormented death. It isn't enough for Jaime to strangle her. I fully expect her to set King's Landing on fire wildfire or to at least try. It would be cool if Dany walked into the fire and extinguished it like the NK did with the dragon fire. Jon is already head over heels with her; he will probably have an orgasm on the spot. Ha.

[Heathrowe99]

I know she is horrible and has done terrible things, but I kind of hope Cersei survives. I liked it in the last episode when she referenced just running away and having her baby and focusing on what really matters to her, her family. Maybe it will end with her becoming someone like Maggie the Frog and hiding herself away. Not likely, but I like that idea. Totally agree that with only a few episodes left til the end of the series, there's not going to be much time for any subtleties - I think the pace is going to be insanely fast.

[TarotQueen]

22 hours ago, MadMouse said:

Do you really think they could handle two characters just being okay with it.

TBH if anything, I think the show has made incest more titillating to the viewership at large and not more disgusting.  Do I think anyone is admitting to that, no probably not, but it falls into that darker range of sexuality and things that may be too taboo for most to outright practice it, but something about which they still possibly fantasize or have a strong curiousity.  In that sense, it could be a proxy wish fulfillment.   

I think the viewers who would be sincerely outraged have either never watched or were already out the door since Cersei and Jaime season 1.  And don't get me started on the sort of people who want to make a big deal of stuff like this precisely because of their shame over how strongly in truly does appeal to their prurience.

Different opinions is all ...  we'll see when we get there!

20 hours ago, Nash said:

In terms of audience reaction, the J&D relationship won't exist in a vacuum, other plotlines and the deaths of several major / poplar characters will happen around it.

theres no doubt that Outraged of Tunbridge Wells will be outraged but to an element it's more like "he's fit, she's hot, get it on". I'm sure a bit of nudity will help the ratings. 

The key thing will be that the relationship isn't cohersive, abusive and without a major age difference. But you can bet that HBO are watching the forums for discussions like this and that the cast will be well briefed on a "line to follow" and the PR team will be on the alert limit any perceived damage. 

As for the plot impact - I'm cynical....the love affair will wobble or bloom depending upon the demands of the plot......

You've said some of the same things I was getting at much better than I could.  I already liked your post, but also wanted to repost it too.

[Brn2bwild]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I found Littlefinger's death underwhelming and I suspect that I will find Cersei's death to be the same. Cersei deserves a painful tormented death. It isn't enough for Jaime to strangle her. I fully expect her to set King's Landing on fire wildfire or to at least try. It would be cool if Dany walked into the fire and extinguished it like the NK did with the dragon fire. Jon is already head over heels with her; he will probably have an orgasm on the spot. Ha.

I predict Arya will be tasked with killing Cersei in order to free the captive King's Landing population from being consumed by the advancing wights.  Cersei will figure out what Arya is up to and they will have a struggle to the death, when Cersei suddenly sees her three children as reanimated wights.  She makes an unexpected sacrifice by pushing Arya to safety and letting the wights consume her.  Arya escapes.

Fan fiction maybe, but an Arya-Cersei meeting appeared to be hinted at last Season with the play.

[Ocean Chick]

30 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

when Cersei suddenly sees her three children as reanimated wights.

But her children are all scattered ashes.  Joffrey and Marcella were already buried in the Sept when it was blown up and consumed by wildfire, and she told Qyburn (?) to burn Tommen's body and bury the ashes in the rubble of the Sept so that he could be with his siblings and her father.

[Brn2bwild]

1 minute ago, Ocean Chick said:

But her children are all scattered ashes.  Joffrey and Marcella were already buried in the Sept when it was blown up and consumed by wildfire, and she told Qyburn (?) to burn Tommen's body and bury the ashes in the rubble of the Sept so that he could be with his siblings and her father.

I know she said to burn Tommen's body, but do we know for a fact that Joffrey and Marcella were buried somewhere their corpses could be blown up?  Regardless, I could easily see a scene where their corpses somehow managed to stay intact to haunt their mother.  Because this is the show where Rheagar has two children named Aegon.

[MadMouse]

1 hour ago, TarotQueen said:

TBH if anything, I think the show has made incest more titillating to the viewership at large and not more disgusting.  Do I think anyone is admitting to that, no probably not, but it falls into that darker range of sexuality and things that may be too taboo for most to outright practice it, but something about which they still possibly fantasize or have a strong curiousity.  In that sense, it could be a proxy wish fulfillment.   

I think the viewers who would be sincerely outraged have either never watched or were already out the door since Cersei and Jaime season 1.  And don't get me started on the sort of people who want to make a big deal of stuff like this precisely because of their shame over how strongly in truly does appeal to their prurience.

Different opinions is all ...  we'll see when we get there!

 

I'm with you personally, I'm one the few people who think this won't be an issue for him in the books and he'll actually embrace it. And I would completely respect D&D if it played out like that on the show. I'm just going by certain things they've sanitized when it involves the "good" guys. Tyrion's journey to Dany, creepy Jorah and one that hasn't been proven but I would bet money on it, burning Shireen brings Jon back. So for them to just gloss over Jon giving the snowplow to his aunt, I just don't see it but I hope I'm proven wrong.

[Nash]

Looking at Cersei and her possible demise, I think Raymond Chandler has some relevance. His theory that the role of the heroic detective was to ensure that murder was found out and that justice was done but that "down these mean streets must walk a man who isn't mean". 

In short Cersei should face justice but not the kind that compromises the integrity of whoever delivers it and the viewers. If she was to die by being burnt an inch at a time by wildfire, would you cheer? The death by dog for Bolton was rough justice but opened a window on the darker side of the Starks. 

Littlefinger? Justice done in the open and a swift end. 

The show is glossing over some of the darker sides of the actions of the good guys but it also needs to keep deep blue moral water between good and evil. It might not do it and if it doesn't it needs to show the deep dark pit that is open before us. 

[herbz]

If there's one ending I can't see for Cersei, it's her fleeing to have her baby. I don't think she even cares for her family all that much. I think they only matter so long as they extend her own power and serve her own interests. She certainly only seems to 'love' Jaime if he's not thinking independently of her, and as much as she likes to claim that everything she did was to protect her children, what she did to Tommen was beyond the pale. Her true attitude to her family was pretty neatly summed up in 7x01 when she says that Tommen betrayed her. Ouch. She's an even worse parent in the books if that's at all possible. 

Edited September 7, 2017 by herbz

[YaddaYadda]

8 hours ago, MadMouse said:

I'm with you personally, I'm one the few people who think this won't be an issue for him in the books and he'll actually embrace it. And I would completely respect D&D if it played out like that on the show. I'm just going by certain things they've sanitized when it involves the "good" guys. Tyrion's journey to Dany, creepy Jorah and one that hasn't been proven but I would bet money on it, burning Shireen brings Jon back. So for them to just gloss over Jon giving the snowplow to his aunt, I just don't see it but I hope I'm proven wrong.

Yeah, the guy just died and there's an army of dead people at his doorstep. I think that him schtooping his aunt is the least of his problems. The thing I'm wondering about in the books is if he would already knows what she is to him when that happens, which I'm inclined to think it will be as opposed to the oopsie on the show. And Jon does display some of those Targaryen "quirks". A stark he may be, but the Targ in him has been slowly rising to the surface.

[Ocean Chick]

14 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Because this is the show where Rheagar has two children named Aegon

And we live in a world where George Foreman named ALL his kids George.  But the Sept was blown up from underneath, so I'd imagine most anything underneath or nearby was blown up as well.  That was an epic explosion.  LOL

[Nash]

I'm interested in those Targ quirks - what would you say they are? The thing with Daenerys isn't a conscious adoption of Targ practice and his justice is taken from Ned - he'd have chopped Tarly himself but - I think - would have tried to give Rickon a way out. Which the idiot would have refused - you can see who had the brains in that family

[MadMouse]

8 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Yeah, the guy just died and there's an army of dead people at his doorstep. I think that him schtooping his aunt is the least of his problems. The thing I'm wondering about in the books is if he would already knows what she is to him when that happens, which I'm inclined to think it will be as opposed to the oopsie on the show. And Jon does display some of those Targaryen "quirks". A stark he may be, but the Targ in him has been slowly rising to the surface.

I pretty sure it'll happen after he knows and there won't be any hesitation. Something along the lines of he was denied so much already and he won't deny himself love.

[Eyes High]

6 hours ago, Nash said:

I'm interested in those Targ quirks - what would you say they are? 

Beyond incestuous romance and a tendency towards madness, I'm not clear on what those traits are, either. Targs are hardly a homogeneous bunch, personality-wise.

While I'm guessing the Northern lords will bitch and moan about Jon bending the knee (and, I assume, about Jon turning out to be a Targaryen), he'll ultimately tell them to get over it and they will. Dany bringing her armies and dragons to their aid will mollify them in any event.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Eyes High

[spaceghostess]

9 hours ago, Nash said:

I'm interested in those Targ quirks - what would you say they are? The thing with Daenerys isn't a conscious adoption of Targ practice and his justice is taken from Ned - he'd have chopped Tarly himself but - I think - would have tried to give Rickon a way out. Which the idiot would have refused - you can see who had the brains in that family

"It's Dickon."

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Nash]

So who was Rickon? He must have been a secret identical twin of Dickon.....did he escape? Is he the Tarly who never was?

[spaceghostess]

Don't know, but I can't think of poor Rickon Stark without hearing Peter Falk's voice yelling "Serpentine, Shelly! Serpentine!!".

[WindyNights]

13 hours ago, Nash said:

I'm interested in those Targ quirks - what would you say they are? The thing with Daenerys isn't a conscious adoption of Targ practice and his justice is taken from Ned - he'd have chopped Tarly himself but - I think - would have tried to give Rickon a way out. Which the idiot would have refused - you can see who had the brains in that family

Tendency towards madness and incest. 

 

But on top of that, many of them also have a tendency towards being obsessive that leads to chaos and sometimes being very gloomy.

Most recent examples: 

 

Aegon V was obsessed about bringing back dragons and helping out the smallfolk. He ended up accidentally burning most of his family at Summerhall with only Aerys, Rhaella and a just born Rhaegar surviving when he tried spells to revive the dragons 

 

Gloomy Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy. He thought he was the Messiah and then his children and lived his life out according to prophecy because he figured everything had to go a certain way as dictated by fate. He started out Robert's Rebellion which lead to the Downfall of the Targaryen Dynasty.

 

Even Stannis who acts like a Targaryen(obsessive, gloomy, interest in dragons, lives in Dragonstone and favors his draconic heritage over his Baratheon heritage) rather than a Baratheon(boisterous, friendly, attention-seeking, loves adulation) gets hit with these traits. Obsessed with duty, his rights  and justice leading to the burning of his daughter and his own destruction. 

[Blonde Gator]

7 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Tendency towards madness and incest. 

 

But on top of that, many of them also have a tendency towards being obsessive that leads to chaos and sometimes being very gloomy.

Most recent examples: 

 

Aegon V was obsessed about bringing back dragons and helping out the smallfolk. He ended up accidentally burning most of his family at Summerhall with only Aerys, Rhaella and a just born Rhaegar surviving when he tried spells to revive the dragons 

 

Gloomy Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy. He thought he was the Messiah and then his children and lived his life out according to prophecy because he figured everything had to go a certain way as dictated by fate. He started out Robert's Rebellion which lead to the Downfall of the Targaryen Dynasty.

 

Even Stannis who acts like a Targaryen(obsessive, gloomy, interest in dragons, lives in Dragonstone and favors his draconic heritage over his Baratheon heritage) rather than a Baratheon(boisterous, friendly, attention-seeking, loves adulation) gets hit with these traits. Obsessed with duty, his rights  and justice leading to the burning of his daughter and his own destruction. 

So, OCD.  Spot on, BTW.

[paigow]

On 9/6/2017 at 11:56 PM, Brn2bwild said:

Because this is the show where Rheagar has two children named Aegon.

When did the writers from Newhart get hired???

[screamin]

59 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

So, OCD.  Spot on, BTW.

Aerys seems to be more paranoid delusional. Rhaegar and Baelor seem to tend more to delusions of grandeur...perhaps manic-depressive. There seems to be a variety.

Edited September 8, 2017 by screamin