Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[YaddaYadda]

39 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

I figure we have to have at least one Dany / Jon love scene in s8, most likely when they reconcile after parentage bomb rockiness. Sort of signifying Jon’s acceptance that he’s a Stark and a Targ by doing the most Targ thing possible and screwing a family member lol.

This is such a facepalm thing the way you put it.

Edited June 6, 2018 by YaddaYadda

[Happy Harpy]

40 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

I figure we have to have at least one Dany / Jon love scene in s8, most likely when they reconcile after parentage bomb rockiness. Sort of signifying Jon’s acceptance that he’s a Stark and a Targ by doing the most Targ thing possible and screwing a family member lol.

As long as it's one from the Targ side of the family... :))

[nikma]

So this is how they escape from WF?

[Edith]

http://watchersonthewall.com/con-thrones-exclusive-hannah-murray/

Quote

As for season 8, Murray said she found the final scripts “satisfyingly surprising.”

“I knew to expect the unexpected,” she said. “Anything that felt too obvious to me I knew was not going to be what [happened]. So there were certain things where I was like, “Well it can’t be that but I don’t know what it is going to be.

“It’s not like a fairytale happy ending by any means at all and I think it’s a really wonderful final season,” she said. “I’m really excited for people to get to see it.”

 

Is surprising the new bittersweet? Ha!

1 hour ago, nikma said:

So this is how they escape from WF?

It could be! I don't remember that shot from Bran’s vision, so I going to give it another look!

Edited June 6, 2018 by Edith

[WindyNights]

On 6/5/2018 at 3:44 PM, nikma said:

Yeah, revenge can be badass, we saw that in many stories, but that was not the point of our conversation. We will see Sandor in the books again, no matter what GRRM decided to do with him, because that cameo in AFFC is not how you end a story of any character. 

And being on some island is not a redemption for killing a child. 

 

For now. They could all be dead in TWOW. 

Not in GRRM's stories. Revenge is a bad thing. AFFC + ADWD really hammers in it.

 

And well, the Quiet Isle doesn't receive news. The Elder Brother does but he keeps it from the inhabitants to protect their tranquility. But sure, we might see Sandor again but I doubt it'll be in any big role. 

Also he's not on just some island. He's discovered religion and is punishing himself for his sins. 

///////////

Podrick: Why do they call it the Quiet Isle?

Meribald: Those who dwell here are penitents, who seek to atone for their sins through contemplation, prayer, and silence. Only the Elder Brother and his proctors are permitted to speak, and the proctors only for one day of every seven.

///////

So the Hound isn't trying to redeem himself through violence or some badass action. He's trying to redeem himself through self-punishment and internal growth as a person. It's not flashy and it doesn't mean that he will be redeemed but it leaves a sliver of hope that one day he might find peace of mind. That's pretty hopeful.

Cleganebowl will likely be show-only.

26 minutes ago, Edith said:

http://watchersonthewall.com/con-thrones-exclusive-hannah-murray/

Is surprising the new bittersweet? Ha!

It could be! I don't remember that shot from Bran’s vision, so I going to give it another look!

These are a bunch of stock answers. But they've used surprising as much as bittersweet so I wouldn't say it's new the bittersweet.

 

Someone get the actors drunk before they do interviews pls

[GrailKing]

WEASEL??????

Edited June 7, 2018 by GrailKing

[nikma]

8 hours ago, Edith said:

http://watchersonthewall.com/con-thrones-exclusive-hannah-murray/

Is surprising the new bittersweet? Ha

From the way I see set ups and hints from the past seasons, the only thing that makes sense is some kind of Targaryen restauration. But on the other hand every actor said it will be surprising and different. Joe even said that fans will like it "in reflection". I mean why would he say that for Targ restauration?

I know that there is a vocal minority that would hate that "Disney ending", but Jon and Dany as rulers can't be considered unpopular or something that fans will love in reflection.

[nikma]

The point is if the story doesn't end in that clear and safe way, it can be great or it can be mess. 

But since Nikoaj likes the ending and he is not Dany's fan and we know that he is honest about his feelings in interviews, maybe Dany does turn to the dark side and we have some kind of conflict between Jon and her.

When they say surprising I think we can rule out WW's victory, because there is nothing sweet there. But Jon vs Dany does seem like somethig different, controversial and something that fans could like "in reflection".

Edited June 7, 2018 by nikma

[Happy Harpy]

2 hours ago, nikma said:

From the way I see set ups and hints from the past seasons, the only thing that makes sense is some kind of Targaryen restauration. But on the other hand every actor said it will be surprising and different. Joe even said that fans will like it "in reflection". I mean why would he say that for Targ restauration?

I know that there is a vocal minority that would hate that "Disney ending", but Jon and Dany as rulers can't be considered unpopular or something that fans will love in reflection.

It could be all PR talk but...although I don't think that Jon/Dany dies, it would be too bleak, I'm seriously beginning to doubt they'll rule. But imo they'll get a happy ending instead -it's one thing to kill off your good guy central character after a season/one book, but after eight seasons/years of publishing? Nah.

Who else could?

Imo, not a polarizing figure or they would only use "surprising" but not "satisfying". I don't think the ending will be "controversial" beyond Jon/Dany not on the throne (and still, a big fat "if they don't" here).

No one? Even if there's no more IT, democracy is too big of a jump imo and there will be a kind of kingly or queenly figure or both.

Tyrion? It was hammered (by Varys, for example) that he wouldn't sit on the throne and the smallfolk has a terrible image of him. So it would be a surprising ending but one that audiences could get behind since he stays one of the most popular characters and especially with the casual viewers (standard disclaimer apply).

Bran? I doubt it since being the 3ER seems to forbid secular power, but it certainly would be surprising. Bran said to Sansa that he wouldn't be "lord" of anything...not "king", right? He doesn't seem to have many haters in the audience.

Gendry? Joe Dempsie talked of a big evolution for Gendry. who after all is a Baratheon and the closest by blood with the Targs. Moreover, in universe no one knows him in the kingdom whereas they know the Dragon Queen, the Lannister Imp, or the KITN who won the battle of the Bastards. Gendry seems fairly popular, but is only a secondary character.

Arya? Same reasoning as Tyrion for the audience reaction. In universe, like Gendry, no one knows her and unlike him, she isn't in the line of succession. I don't see her becoming queen in her own right because it isn't in her temper, either. Queen because she marries Gendry? It's an option.

That said, the war against the dead can change everything, as far as in-universe possibilities go. It will involve protecting the smallfolk, so if fighters like Arya and Gendry protect the people, it could "rise their profile", make them heroes and earn enough popularity. Ditto if Tyrion pulls another Blackwater and gets the credit, this time. It might even be an option for Bran, if he publicly uses his powers and saves the population of KL, for example.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[nikma]

Yeah, but I can't see the option where they live and don't rule. Why would Dany refuse to rule?

[whateverdgaf]

Maybe there is a Targ restoration and Dany and Jon rule, but the way it is presented is not as a happy ending. Even if Jon and Dany turn out to be absolutely incredible rulers; Jaehaerys and Alysanne come again, there is no way to ensure that their descendants will follow in their footsteps. If Westeros continues under an absolute monarchy, the events of the War of the Five Kings and Robert's Rebellion etc is only going to continue. 

Or else perhaps Dany sees the only way to 'break the wheel' is to do away with absolute monarchies and feudalism, and so she does end up refusing the crown. 

[nikma]

But there is nothing surprising in them ruling. 

[bubble sparkly]

I tend to side eye all these "surprising" comments, since actors are normally given specific talking points and buzzwords for upcoming seasons / episodes.  For example, the anvils were falling last season that Jon is going to impregnate Dany, but I bet the once we get in-show confirmation of the pregnancy the actors will talk about how "shocking" it is that allegedly-barren Dany is knocked up.

Also, short of the ending being something random like Robyn Arryn on the throne, is it really going to be all that surprising?  Dany and Jon ruling together is predicted, Dany dying in childbirth is predicted, and Jon dying fighting the NK is predicted.  Fandom also thinks Tyrion and Sansa could end up ruling, Gendry and Arya etc.  Hell, Bran as the NK is a popular theory.  I'm willing to bet that whatever the ending is, it will be something that is a reasonably popular fandom theory.

Edited June 7, 2018 by bubble sparkly

[WearyTraveler]

Many things can be surprising for many different people.  Having all the dragons die could be surprising for some, for example, but not for others.  I tend not to think about such comments too much, there are way too many possibilities to make a good guess

[nikma]

3 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

I tend to side eye all these "surprising" comments, since actors are normally given specific talking points and buzzwords for upcoming seasons / episodes.  For example, the anvils were falling last season that Jon is going to impregnate Dany, but I bet the once we get in-show confirmation of the pregnancy the actors will talk about how "shocking" it is that allegedly-barren Dany is knocked up.

That's true, but I don't remember that actors ever lied when they spoked how they feel about the season. I remember that Nikolaj said last year that he doesn't think that S7 is dark. They didn't say it was surprising. They were talking how the worlds are coliding, lots of meetings and reunions, Arya said there was big clifhanger at the end and so on.

 

Everything they said was true. So if they are now saying it won't be what we expect then I don't see how it can end with Dany and Jon ruling.

[Happy Harpy]

3 hours ago, nikma said:

Everything they said was true. So if they are now saying it won't be what we expect then I don't see how it can end with Dany and Jon ruling.

Unless they think, because GoT is famous for killing main characters etc., that most people expect Jon/Dany or one of them to die, and will be surprised if they actually end sharing the throne and happy about it.

4 hours ago, nikma said:

Yeah, but I can't see the option where they live and don't rule. Why would Dany refuse to rule?

Imo, the idea that on a personal point of view, she wanted power to be free and safe from oppression underlied her speech to Jon Snow ("I was enslaved, raped etc."). But when you rule, you aren't free; she has begun to learn it since Meereen. She feels it's her duty to free others, but once she (and the others) liberated Westeros from the NK, probably at a great cost, she might feel or might be convinced she did enough. She was kind of wistful when Barristan mentioned Rhaegar escaping the palace; the red door wasn't mentioned yet on the show but it could be in S7, as always when book knowledge becomes relevant, during some discussions between Jon and Dany -I'm not sure there will be plenty or sex scenes during such a short season, but some pillow talk? Yes. Jon leads because he has to, I could see her realize that power isn't what she needs or wants, deep down.

She could realize in parallel that she won't break the wheel if she sits on the throne and gives birth to a new Targ line, because she can't be certain there won't be another Aerys among her descendants even if they stop incesting -and well, Jon/Dany is an improvement but the Targ to Targ attraction sure seems a bit in the genes. Maybe that's also why she and Tyrion discussed the possibility during S7. I don't think a modern democracy can be established, but with many Houses already destroyed, I could see the end of a feudal system and an assembly with some delegates from the smallfolk, a kind of constitutional monarchy. Then, Dany would feel that she broke the wheel and fulfilled her duty towards the smallfolk.

I can also see her leaving if for one reason or another her dragons are still alive but can't stay in Westeros. She's the Mother, she won't abandon her children.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[Eyes High]

I don't think the ending, whatever it is, will be truly surprising to any of the longtime hardcore book fans. They have already imagined and dissected every possible scenario. Frankly, Roose Bolton could jump out at the last minute, reveal that he was an immortal being who had survived for centuries by stealing other men's skins, and claim the throne, and there would be some people out there going "Aha! I knew it!"

...On the other hand, a lot of hardcore book fans screamed bloody murder when D&D revealed that Book Stannis orders Shireen's burning, so who knows?

5 hours ago, nikma said:

The point is if the story doesn't end in that clear and safe way, it can be great or it can be mess. 

But since Nikoaj likes the ending and he is not Dany's fan and we know that he is honest about his feelings in interviews

I'm the one who posted the quote from the interview, and I initially had the same reaction to it, but I noticed when I reread the quotes that NCW didn't specifically say that he likes the substance of the ending. He said "It's one story from season 1 to 8, and it makes sense." That's not quite a diss, but...

And for GRRM, as he told Alan Taylor, as well as for a lot of fans, that story is the story of Jon and Dany. Now that they've fallen in love and that Dany is likely going to get pregnant as heavily hinted, the only way to tie up their story in a way that is satisfying and makes sense, in my opinion, would be to put them both on the throne at the end.

This isn't to say that the ending won't have surprising elements, like who lives, who dies, what happens with the NW, who gets Winterfell, what happens to Tyrion and Arya, etc.--and that may be what the cast members are referencing--but Dany and Jon getting the throne won't be one of them.

...I think we can rule out Gendry as endgame king, since Joe Dempsie wrapped in Seville and Gendry isn't part of all this KL action that's been filmed over the past several weeks, unlike Jon, Davos and Arya.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Eyes High

[YaddaYadda]

7 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

...On the other hand, a lot of hardcore book fans screamed bloody murder when D&D revealed that Book Stannis orders Shireen's burning, so who knows?

As a hardcore book fan who screamed bloody murder on that, when I went back in one of the books, there is foreshadowing for it.

I wonder if the prophecy will play any role at all in season 8.

[GrailKing]

20 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

As a hardcore book fan who screamed bloody murder on that, when I went back in one of the books, there is foreshadowing for it.

I wonder if the prophecy will play any role at all in season 8.

As a book reader, I did skew my face when all the book readers bitched and scream; it was all right there.

How GRRM does it is what I'm waiting to read.

[GrailKing]

https://imgur.com/gallery/gvN0dSH

Edited June 7, 2018 by GrailKing

[nikma]

1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

Unless they think, because GoT is famous for killing main characters etc., that most people expect Jon/Dany or one of them to die, and will be surprised if they actually end sharing the throne and happy about it.

Imo, the idea that on a personal point of view, she wanted power to be free and safe from oppression underlied her speech to Jon Snow ("I was enslaved, raped etc."). But when you rule, you aren't free; she has begun to learn it since Meereen. She feels it's her duty to free others, but once she (and the others) liberated Westeros from the NK, probably at a great cost, she might feel or might be convinced she did enough. She was kind of wistful when Barristan mentioned Rhaegar escaping the palace; the red door wasn't mentioned yet on the show but it could be in S7, as always when book knowledge becomes relevant, during some discussions between Jon and Dany -I'm not sure there will be plenty or sex scenes during such a short season, but some pillow talk? Yes. Jon leads because he has to, I could see her realize that power isn't what she needs or wants, deep down.

She could realize in parallel that she won't break the wheel if she sits on the throne and gives birth to a new Targ line, because she can't be certain there won't be another Aerys among her descendants even if they stop incesting -and well, Jon/Dany is an improvement but the Targ to Targ attraction sure seems a bit in the genes. Maybe that's also why she and Tyrion discussed the possibility during S7. I don't think a modern democracy can be established, but with many Houses already destroyed, I could see the end of a feudal system and an assembly with some delegates from the smallfolk, a kind of constitutional monarchy. Then, Dany would feel that she broke the wheel and fulfilled her duty towards the smallfolk.

I can also see her leaving if for one reason or another her dragons are still alive but can't stay in Westeros. She's the Mother, she won't abandon her children.

I don't think that "surprising because it's not surprising" is the answer IMO. If you say it's the ending most fans didn't expect you can't mean it's Jon and Dany. And why would fans love that ending "in reflection"?  I know everything is controversial in this fandom, but for GA I don't think Targ victory is something that needs time to appreciate.

[nikma]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

The only way to tie up their story in a way that is satisfying and makes sense, in my opinion, would be to put them both on the throne at the end.

I agree with this, but you just don't describe this ending as surprising. Read interview with every actor and tell me does that screams Targ back in power to you?

I know that some people will say that it's just a marketing and hype but there are so mamt ways to hype season, so many words you can use. Like they did with S7. No actor said anything that turned out wasn't true.

[SeanC]

21 minutes ago, nikma said:

I agree with this, but you just don't describe this ending as surprising. Read interview with every actor and tell me does that screams Targ back in power to you?

I know that some people will say that it's just a marketing and hype but there are so mamt ways to hype season, so many words you can use. Like they did with S7. No actor said anything that turned out wasn't true.

What a person finds surprising is subjective.  Remember when Sophie talked about finding her S7 story sad and people insisted the S7 leaks couldn’t be true because there wasn’t anything for her to be sad about?

[nikma]

12 minutes ago, SeanC said:

What a person finds surprising is subjective.  Remember when Sophie talked about finding her S7 story sad and people insisted the S7 leaks couldn’t be true because there wasn’t anything for her to be sad about?

Sophie is know as someone who is not reliable. The entire cast can't be bulshiting.

Yes, "surprising" is subjectve, but I really can't see that many actors thinking that Jon and Dany ruling is sometnihg surprising.

I mean some of them even said that it would be lame if the story ends like how everyone expects and you think they are describing restoration of Targs as something people are not expecting?

I could be wrong, but reading all these interviews and imagining they are talking about Jon and Dany as rulers just doesn't make any sense to me. But we will see.

[Cujoy]

I would be surprised if Jon & Dany ended up ruling together at the end just because of the kind of series this is... i.e. one that includes the Red Wedding.   There is also too much potential prophecy around them both i.e "prince/princess that was promised".   That kind of destined hero/heroine tends to be the kind who don't have power at the end, but rather quietly disappear, as Frodo did.   The other options include Jon or Dany alone, and dark horse pairings such as Sansa/Tyrion and Arya/Gendry.   I think Sansa/Tyrion being a Stark/Lannister pairing would be a perfect shout out to the way the real War of the Roses ended.   

Regarding what the cast members say in interviews, I think that the words that they choose to describe the season before it airs have to be carefully chosen and sufficiently vague so as to communicate basically nothing.  So I always take a huge grain of salt when reading anything that they say.

[GraceK]

Also I’m not taking NCW word as Gods. He may not like Dany personally but that doesn’t mean anything ending wise. He could separate personal dislike from what the story is. And the if the story as a whole ends with a cohesive, satisfactory ending that ties everything together , his personal view on Dany shouldn’t be a factor. Because other people do like her, and in universe, she’s a heroic person. His opinion isn’t the be all end all.

Edited June 7, 2018 by GraceK

[Wouter]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

What a person finds surprising is subjective.  Remember when Sophie talked about finding her S7 story sad and people insisted the S7 leaks couldn’t be true because there wasn’t anything for her to be sad about?

But she actually had reasons to be sad, many people simply couldn't see it when the leaks were presented. Sansa had tears in her eyes when she had LF executed, something which I think would affect the book character likewise and which I consider to be a correct directing/acting choice. There was also her emotional reunion with Arya.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

Sophie is know as someone who is not reliable. The entire cast can't be bulshiting.

 

I don't know; having your family return only to find one changed into an emotionless god figure ( add in his vision of you ), and another a near nutty assassin and your baby brother dead and the north not as reliable as your father said; close enough for tragic and sad. 

Sophie is a pro troll, but she sprinkles some grains of truth also.

Edited June 7, 2018 by GrailKing

[SeanC]

29 minutes ago, Wouter said:

But she actually had reasons to be sad, many people simply couldn't see it when the leaks were presented. Sansa had tears in her eyes when she had LF executed, something which I think would affect the book character likewise and which I consider to be a correct directing/acting choice. There was also her emotional reunion with Arya.

I wasn't arguing that there wasn't any reason for Sophie to feel sad.  My point is that trying to reason backwards from an actor's professed emotional reaction is highly subjective.

[Eyes High]

Sophie’s trolling bullshit is usually about whom she ships with Sansa or whom she wants to see on the throne or whatever. Sophie straight up spoiled her S5 arc by saying that Sansa would be a prisoner again (or words to that effect) and alluded to the rape scene. Going off what we already know about S8, there’s no reason to doubt her comments about S8 to date, either, which are if I recall correctly that 1) a lot of new relationships form and 2) Sansa’s thrown into the deep end again and has to confront a new threat.

Even though I think that Jon/Dany on the throne is the most likely ending, D&D sure weren’t writing her as endgame queen material in S7. Like, a scene where Varys straight up compares her to Aerys? Benioff unfavourably comparing Dany’s lack of compassion for the Tarlys to Sansa’s compassion for LF? Seriously? It’s no wonder some find it hard to believe she’s the endgame queen.

[GraceK]

15 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

en though I think that Jon/Dany on the throne is the most likely ending, D&D sure weren’t writing her as endgame queen material in S7. Like, a scene where Varys straight up compares her to Aerys? Benioff unfavourably comparing Dany’s lack of compassion for the Tarlys to Sansa’s compassion for LF? Seriously? It’s no wonder some find it hard to believe she’s the endgame queen.

They pulled the same shit with Jon as well. They kept hitting us over the head with how stupid he was supposed to be on the blue ray and how Cersei had the right idea. The Dragonpit scene was one “ Gee Jon is such a dumbass for not lying to the psychopath who is definitely lying to us!” I mean really? What baffles me is that if they were seriously trying to make Dany out be morally gray, they chose the wrong family in the Tarlys. 2 more unsympathetic people they couldn’t have chosen. Of all the people for her to burn as prisoners, they chose the xenophobic, racist would be murderer of his son, who at the moment was in the process of pirating food and grain from innocent people to feed a despot, after betraying a family he had been sworn too for generations, and murdering bannerman and former friends. And we are supposed to weep tears  cause we had one scene where Dickon felt bad about it? Come on. If D &D really wanted to make us believe she had any chance of becoming A mad queen or being evil they would have had her burn Jaime and Bronn.

so after s7 is basically tearing Dany down a few notches, it actually would be surprising for her to be endgame queen .

Edited June 7, 2018 by GraceK

[onyxrose81]

The amount of grief Dany gets for the Tarlys is ridiculous.  Tarly Senior wouldn't bend the knee, and he said she didn't have the authority to send him to The Wall.  I wouldn't lug around a person like that and keep him prisoner, so he gotta go.  Dickon's decision to die was just straight up stupid; even Randyll was like "Bend the freaking knee."  Daenerys used her weapon, dragonfire, to kill them.  How would it be better if she ordered the Unsullied or Dothraki to kill them?  Her dragons are part of her.  

[tangerine95]

13 minutes ago, onyxrose81 said:

The amount of grief Dany gets for the Tarlys is ridiculous.  Tarly Senior wouldn't bend the knee, and he said she didn't have the authority to send him to The Wall.  I wouldn't lug around a person like that and keep him prisoner, so he gotta go.  Dickon's decision to die was just straight up stupid; even Randyll was like "Bend the freaking knee."  Daenerys used her weapon, dragonfire, to kill them.  How would it be better if she ordered the Unsullied or Dothraki to kill them?  Her dragons are part of her.  

I never got that either.Like what else was she supposed to do in a war when he refused every other option and stood there insulting her.It felt like the only difference was the fact that she used Drogon,like that's so cruel compared to any other way to execute someone.I get that it makes sense that a character that has dragons would be questioned on how they use them and how ruthless they would be but imo that was a pretty lame way to do it.And especially having Tyrion and Varys so appalled,I thought they came off looking like such hypocrites.

Edited June 7, 2018 by tangerine95

[Sunshinegal]

Just now, onyxrose81 said:

The amount of grief Dany gets for the Tarlys is ridiculous.  Tarly Senior wouldn't bend the knee, and he said she didn't have the authority to send him to The Wall.  I wouldn't lug around a person like that and keep him prisoner, so he gotta go.  Dickon's decision to die was just straight up stupid; even Randyll was like "Bend the freaking knee."  Daenerys used her weapon, dragonfire, to kill them.  How would it be better if she ordered the Unsullied or Dothraki to kill them?  Her dragons are part of her.  

Tarly is a jerk but I think he was voicing what other people in Westeros was probably thinking.  Many Westerosi do view her as a foreigner and do believe she didn't have any authority.  She just has a claim to the throne.  Many Westerosi don't care about her claim to the throne. 

This is a world where people feared the direwolf pups in the first book.  Many people might not like the full grown dragons. 

Most people in Westeros don't know Dany.  They never met her before.  They might only know her by her reputation.  Which might not be positive in Westeros.

Dany was right to do what she did.  But it was bad PR wise.  Her father burned people and Dany did too.  That might hurt her in the future.

[YaddaYadda]

32 minutes ago, onyxrose81 said:

The amount of grief Dany gets for the Tarlys is ridiculous.  Tarly Senior wouldn't bend the knee, and he said she didn't have the authority to send him to The Wall.  I wouldn't lug around a person like that and keep him prisoner, so he gotta go.  Dickon's decision to die was just straight up stupid; even Randyll was like "Bend the freaking knee."  Daenerys used her weapon, dragonfire, to kill them.  How would it be better if she ordered the Unsullied or Dothraki to kill them?  Her dragons are part of her.  

Dany passed the sentence and swung the sword, so to speak. 

Last season was too much and I'm glad I never listened to their post episode comments. I will never get over them saying that Needle for Arya is about vengeance. No it's not. It never was.

Edited June 7, 2018 by YaddaYadda

[nikma]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

They pulled the same shit with Jon as well. They kept hitting us over the head with how stupid he was supposed to be on the blue ray and how Cersei had the right idea

What they said while drunk on  blue ray and what happened in the show are two different things. So you think they put that just for filler? It won't play any role in S8? Ofc, Dany becoming mad is not the only role that scene could play, but it is clear that they are setting up some kind of conflict between Tyrion and Daenerys. 

 

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

2 more unsympathetic people they couldn’t have chosen.

I don't think Dickon was unsympathetic. To be honest they did alot to make us sympathise with him. And when I say a lot I mean you take into account that he is super minor character. And that whole battle was shot from the Lannister's perspective. Shots of scared soldiers and so on. 

Edited June 7, 2018 by nikma

[nikma]

My point is, it doesn't matter if you like it or not, but D&D took their time in E5 and E6 and even at the end of E7 last season to show that not everything is great between Dany and Tyrion. This has to play some role in the future. They didn't write those scenes just because they didn't have anything better to do and they wanted to create controversy.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

They pulled the same shit with Jon as well. They kept hitting us over the head with how stupid he was supposed to be on the blue ray and how Cersei had the right idea. The Dragonpit scene was one “ Gee Jon is such a dumbass for not lying to the psychopath who is definitely lying to us!”

TV Jon is basically Andy from Parks and Recreation at this point.

Quote

I mean really? What baffles me is that if they were seriously trying to make Dany out be morally gray, they chose the wrong family in the Tarlys.

A few thoughts:

1. I think this is more about Dickon than Randyll, but it's not that they died, it's the manner of their death. If the writers just wanted to get rid of Randyll and Dickon (to clear the way for Sam to be the eventual Warden of the South), they would have had them die in battle. The writers did this for a reason. And while Dave Hill put forward a vigorous defence of Dany's actions, pointing out that Randyll and Dickon somehow managed to extract a loss from a win-win situation, it rings a little hollow to me, since they obviously wrote it that way, along with Tyrion and Varys' handwringing, for a reason. Heck, the S7 outline for that episode reads after the remaining lords bend the knee after seeing Randyll and Dickon burn "Say what you will about Dany's methods, she gets results."

2. TV Dickon is characterized as a sweet, naive kid who wants to be a good son (to the point that he agrees to be executed along with his father rather than let him die alone). Reminded me quite a bit of Pod, actually. I think he was shown to be very sympathetic, at least as far as this show goes.

3. It would be one thing if Tyrion was blase about Dany's actions or silently approved of them, since the writers could use this as a signal that Dany is Making the Hard Choices or whatever. However, he is very clearly disapproving, and not just of the optics. This appears to be a signal from the writers as to how we should feel about it. Contrast this with Jon's execution of Janos Slynt, where Stannis is clearly shown to be approving of Jon's decision.

4. Not only is Tyrion disapproving, we even get a scene where he halfheartedly defends Dany's actions, only for his justifications to get shot down by Varys, who throws in a pointed comparison to Aerys for good measure, and warns Tyrion he needs to get Dany to listen to him.

5. On rewatch, that 7x05 scene reminded me a lot of Joffrey ordering Ned's execution and Cersei and Varys frantically trying to talk him out of it as he shrugs them off.

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Come on. If D &D really wanted to make us believe she had any chance of becoming A mad queen or being evil they would have had her burn Jaime and Bronn.

Not a mad queen or evil, but the writers could have been sending a signal in their way that Dany is not endgame queen material, since I'm guessing they want to leave someone on the throne who's in no danger of succumbing to such impulses (...which is probably a compelling argument against Queen Arya given how she's been written in the show as well, come to think of it). I have my doubts, of course, since Jon/Dany on the throne seems the most likely outcome, but the whole Tarly thing gives me pause because of how it was written.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Eyes High

[GraceK]

2 minutes ago, nikma said:

hat they said while drunk on  blue ray and what happened in the show are two different things

I also said the whole dragonpit scene in show as well. You had Tyrion yelling at him about how fucked they all were because Jon couldn’t lie and even Dany agreeing , as if they all forgot they were dealing with a known liar and madwoman.  They also still had two dragons and Dothraki and unsullied and were acting as if Cersei were actually relevant at all. The whole thing was retarded to begin with and yet it was JON that was the idiot because he didn’t lie?

 

12 minutes ago, nikma said:

don't think Dickon was unsympathetic. To be honest they did alot to make us sympathise with him. And when I say a lot I mean you take into account that he is super minor character. And that whole battle was shot from the Lannister's perspective. Shots of scared soldiers and so on

Well it didn’t work for me. Seven years of Lannisters being the bad guys and killing Starks, murdering people, The red wedding, and every other time Lannister soldiers were on the winning side I was happy to see them toasted and I never once doubted whose side I was on. No matter how much I may like Jaime I was thrilled to finally see him shitting his pants in terror when he saw Dany riding into battle on Drogon. I wasn’t moved by his PTSD and sad music because he has been supporting his sister and all the horrible things she has been doing and hasn’t  once  questioned it.  Dickon having one scene where he laments killing his friends isn’t enough to earn my sympathy. He should have thought of his mother and sister before he chose to die for his horrific father.

6 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

TV Jon is basically Andy from Parks and Recreation at this point.

A few thoughts:

1. I think this is more about Dickon than Randyll, but it's not that they died, it's the manner of their death. If the writers just wanted to get rid of Randyll and Dickon (to clear the way for Sam to be the eventual Warden of the South), they would have had them die in battle. The writers did this for a reason. And while Dave Hill put forward a vigorous defence of Dany's actions, pointing out that Randyll and Dickon somehow managed to extract a loss from a win-win situation, it rings a little hollow to me, since they obviously wrote it that way, along with Tyrion and Varys' handwringing, for a reason. Heck, the S7 outline for that episode reads after the remaining lords bend the knee after seeing Randyll and Dickon burn "Say what you will about Dany's methods, she gets results."

2. TV Dickon is characterized as a sweet, naive kid who wants to be a good son (to the point that he agrees to be executed along with his father rather than let him die alone). Reminded me quite a bit of Pod, actually. I think he was shown to be very sympathetic, at least as far as this show goes.

3. It would be one thing if Tyrion was blase about Dany's actions or silently approved of them, since the writers could use this as a signal that Dany is Making the Hard Choices or whatever. However, he is very clearly disapproving, and not just of the optics. This appears to be a signal from the writers as to how we should feel about it. Contrast this with Jon's execution of Janos Slynt, where Stannis is clearly shown to be approving of Jon's decision.

4. Not only is Tyrion disapproving, we even get a scene where he halfheartedly defends Dany's actions, only for his justifications to get shot down by Varys, who throws in a pointed comparison to Aerys for good measure, and warns Tyrion he needs to get Dany to listen to him.

5. On rewatch, that 7x05 scene reminded me a lot of Joffrey ordering Ned's execution and Cersei and Varys frantically trying to talk him out of it as he shrugs them off.

Not a mad queen or evil, but the writers could have been sending a signal in their way that Dany is not endgame queen material, since I'm guessing they want to leave someone on the throne who's in no danger of succumbing to such impulses (...which is probably a compelling argument against Queen Arya given how she's been written in the show as well, come to think of it). I have my doubts, of course, since Jon/Dany on the throne seems the most likely outcome, but the whole Tarly thing gives me pause because of how it was written.

This is what upsets me because I feel this is a serious injustice to Danys character and it gets me really riled up. She’s damned no matter what.

[nikma]

11 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Well it didn’t work for me... Dickon having one scene where he laments killing his friends isn’t enough to earn my sympathy

Fine. But you can't deny that it worked for a lot of people. 

And again, fine, that's your opinion, but Dickon had a lot of people liking him. He was S7's Karsi. 

 

13 minutes ago, GraceK said:

The whole thing was retarded to begin with and yet it was JON that was the idiot because he didn’t lie?

I don't see how this is connected to what we were talking. You may not like D&D's creative decisions, but it is clear that those scenes with Tyrion and Varys and Tyrion and Dany have some purpose for the future. As I said, they didn't write those scenes just because they didn't have anything better to do. They are trying to set something up for S8. What? We will see. But I don't think you can ignore those scenes when we discuss S8, even if you didn't like Tyrion's arguments. 

[nikma]

30 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

 

A few thoughts:

 

 

 

I agree with everything you said. You said it batter than me. Those scenes have purpose, you don't need to like them in order to understand that they will play some role in the last season. It is clear that Tyrion is not happy with Dany. And Dany is not happy with him.

 

Did D&D wrote this so Tyrion could prove himself in S8 after mistakes that he made? And that Dany could become less impulsive in S8? Maybe. We don't know yet. It's doesn't need to end in tragedy. D&D maybe just want to create problems between them, so they can solve them and become a better team in the last season. To make them learn to work togehther. 

Edited June 7, 2018 by nikma

[GraceK]

11 minutes ago, nikma said:

Fine. But you can't deny that it worked for a lot of people. 

And again, fine, that's your opinion, but Dickon had a lot of people liking him. He was S7's Karsi. 

 

I don't see how this is connected to what we were talking. You may not like D&D's creative decisions, but it is clear that those scenes with Tyrion and Varys and Tyrion and Dany have some purpose for the future. As I said, they didn't write those scenes just because they didn't have anything better to do. They are trying to set something up for S8. What? We will see. But I don't think you can ignore those scenes when we discuss S8, even if you didn't like Tyrion's arguments. 

I’m not ignoring those scenes. My original post didn’t even have anything do with Tyrion or his arguments. 

I agree that they are setting up conflict next season. I never said otherwise. ?‍♀️

If anything I hope that all this set up is one giant red herring and that Dany is endgame queen after all ?

Edited June 7, 2018 by GraceK

[nikma]

I don't know what D&D's plan is, but if it's just to create problems between Tyrion and Dany, so they can learn to work together and be better team, I think if they pull that off in S8 it could be a good creative decision. If you are a writer, you don't want to make everything too easy for your heroes. It takes time for Dany and Tyrion to find perfect balance in their cooperation.

So I wouldn't say that those scenes make it clear that D&D don't want Dany as the endgame queen. Maybe the fact that she killed them in that way is going to hunt her in S8 when she meets Sam. Maybe those scenes imply that D&D do want Dany as queen at the end, because she will learn from her mistakes and that's what makes a great queen. 

Maybe the point of S7 for both Tyrion and Dany was that they made a lot of mistakes, but they will learn and do much better in S8 and prove that they do work great as Queen and Hand. 

Or maybe the point is that Dany doesn't work as solo ruler, she needs Jon. And Jon need her. 

Edited June 7, 2018 by nikma

[Sunshinegal]

If King's Landing burns and if it burns through dragonfire and if the population of King's Landing burns as well will Westeros want the Targs to rule.

[nikma]

1 minute ago, Sunshinegal said:

If King's Landing burns and if it burns through dragonfire and if the population of King's Landing burns as well will Westeros want the Targs to rule.

It depends on context. 

[Edith]

Edit

Edited June 7, 2018 by Edith

[bubble sparkly]

I agree it’s possible D&D are trying to set it up so Jon needs Dany’s brain to be a good ruler and she needs his heart, or something silly like that. They are two halves of a whole and together they make the perfect ruler etc. I don’t really agree with that as I think each of them do okay on their own, but if the end result is them living and ruling together then I won’t complain too much.

Tyrion acting like a moral authority is getting annoying though. Like, the guy has murdered his father and his girlfriend, and he happily exterminated a lot of Stannis’ army with wildfire. He can take a few seats.

Also, the wight hunt was Tyrion’s idea, and then he tried to talk Dany out of going to save Jon and co by saying they knew what they were getting into. One assumes the Tarlys knew the risks of war but decided to screw the Tyrells and go to war behind the Lannisters anyway, yet their lives must be protected at all costs?

Honestly, after s7 Tyrion should have been demoted as hand because he was bloody useless. At least Davos is a good hype man and will be happy to watch the little Targs when Jon and Dany have date night.

[shireenbamfatheon]

44 minutes ago, nikma said:

I don't know what D&D's plan is, but if it's just to create problems between Tyrion and Dany, so they can learn to work together and be better team, I think if they pull that off in S8 it could be a good creative decision. If you are a writer, you don't want to make everything too easy for your heroes. It takes time for Dany and Tyrion to find perfect balance in their cooperation.

So I wouldn't say that those scenes make it clear that D&D don't want Dany as the endgame queen. Maybe the fact that she killed them in that way is going to hunt her in S8 when she meets Sam. Maybe those scenes imply that D&D do want Dany as queen at the end, because she will learn from her mistakes and that's what makes a great queen. 

Maybe the point of S7 for both Tyrion and Dany was that they made a lot of mistakes, but they will learn and do much better in S8 and prove that they do work great as Queen and Hand. 

Or maybe the point is that Dany doesn't work as solo ruler, she needs Jon. And Jon need her. 

I doubt the point of the latest season was to show that Daenerys will eventually learn from her mistakes since this is a character arc they've been repeating for several seasons now, as I mentioned earlier in this thread. If Dany was supposed to have learned something, it should have been in season seven, since that was her and Tyrion's third season together and more than enough time on-screen to show this supposed learned lesson. The season ended with Daenerys once again acting impulsively, this time for a good reason, but it was an act that led to the Night King gaining a dragon and tearing down the Wall. Then there was the moronic decision to bring both her dragons to King's Landing as a power play, only for Cersei to realize that she'd lost one dragon already. 

The Varys and Daenerys scene was like getting hit in the face with an anvil in terms of foreshadowing. "If you do something I can't support, I'll turn cloak." "If you do, I'll burn you alive." Followed by "Tyrion, I feel like history is repeating itself and I don't want to support another mad monarch." and "Oh hey, Varys, your gal Mel here, did you know you'll die in this strange land?"

As for the Tarly situation, I don't think she was remotely in the right. If people are spreading propaganda about Dany being her father reincarnated, then telling the Lannister and Reach men that she's there to free them from the oppressive rule of Cersei, only to offer them subjugation or death by fire is counterproductive and unnecessarily cruel, not to mention hypocritical. The complete lack of remorse and the ominous music just hammers it home that Tyrion and Varys' concerns are valid (or supposed to be). But I imagine everyone's going to interpret this differently because Daenerys is a polarizing character and a case can be made for both sides. 

NCW in an interview from last month:

“You don’t really have heroes or villains, and when you think you have one, it turns.”[...] While avoiding any spoilers for the final season of “Game of Thrones,” Coster-Waldau is able to produce three words to describe Season 8: “Surprising. Enormous. Heartbreaking.” He thinks for a moment before coming up with three more, “satisfying, shocking and… heartbreaking again.” 

[GraceK]

16 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

“You don’t really have heroes or villains, and when you think you have one, it turns.”[...] While avoiding any spoilers for the final season of “Game of Thrones,” Coster-Waldau is able to produce three words to describe Season 8: “Surprising. Enormous. Heartbreaking.” He thinks for a moment before coming up with three more, “satisfying, shocking and… heartbreaking again.” 

Except Jon Snow is very clearly a hero, and Cersei is very clearly a villain. 

Also, since his character mostly likely dies, and so does his sister, it doesn’t surprise me he finds it heartbreaking and enormous.

Surprising eh? That settles it. Dany is endgame Queen ???? 

Edited June 7, 2018 by GraceK

[shireenbamfatheon]

54 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Except Jon Snow is very clearly a hero, and Cersei is very clearly a villain. 

Also, since his character mostly likely dies, and so does his sister, it doesn’t surprise me he finds it heartbreaking and enormous.

Surprising eh? That settles it. Dany is endgame Queen  

It's an interesting quote nonetheless and makes me wonder if he's referring to his own arc or someone else's future one. He doesn't specify it. As for Cersei, she is a lot more grey in the show than the books. She's a villain at this point, but aside from the sept bombing which was done out of self-preservation, she's only targeted people who've hurt her in some way (unless I'm misremembering). They've whitewashed the hell out of her, but after four seasons with Ramsay I'm ok with a more nuanced villain in Cersei.

Surprising, heartbreaking, shocking and satisfying. And he's talking about season eight as a whole and not just his arc. He's never been one to shy away from criticism so I'm going to trust him on this. 

People are going to believe what they want, and far be it for me to dictate anyone's feelings, but this whole "people expect the finale to be surprising so by not making it surprising it'll actually be surprising" seems... reaching.