Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Colorful Mess]

7 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I mean, yes, she is putting him at risk.  Attempting to instigate a putsch to put a person on the throne intrinsically endangers that person, up until the point that you actually win.

He was already at risk going down there with Dany anyway - look at the catastrophe she set up for him that he's walking into. It's not like Jon is going to walk up to the throne and take it, because Varys told him to. This is more like, Varys will work behind the scenes to protect Jon.

[ursula]

14 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

She was. She asked him to keep pretending he is Ned Stark’s bastard because telling the truth could ruin her right to the throne. Except she has no right to the throne. He does. Not because he is a man, but because he is the son of Rhaegar, the Crown Prince. The show keeps making it look he has a better claim because he has a dick, but Jon could have been a girl called Joana and he would still have a better claim because    the heir of he Crown Prince is the fucking heir.

Jon had the right to tell his family. End of the story.

Yeah I'm not even going into the stupidity* of claiming Jon's right to the throne as de facto when by all the rules of Westeros, he was Rheagar's bastard. Only the King can annul or approve a royal marriage. The only proof that this unsanctioned ceremony took place is a piece of paper "found" by Jon's bestie who hates Dany.

(Oh and an entire war was fought on the premise that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna Stark!)

In addition, Aerys II had disinherited Rhaegar, making Viserys his heir, making Dany Viserys's heir. Viserys was actually crowned King by a small group of loyalists so no, the lines of succession aren't as clear as you describe.

And that's not even going into the fact that the only "proof" of Jon's status as his mother's son is his brother's visions. In the show at least, there is no living witness to the fact that Lyanna Stark ever had a child by Rhaegar.

By this argument, anyone can walk up to King's Landing and claim he had a brother who saw a vision that he was Rhaegar's son!

*Not of you, the writers

Edited May 7, 2019 by ursula

[ursula]

11 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

It's not like Jon is going to walk up to the throne and take it, because Varys told him to. This is more like, Varys will work behind the scenes to protect Jon.

The same Varys who "protected" Ned Stark when he was imprisoned? When he made a deal to confess and be sent to the Wall? The same Varys who's outlived and conspired through 3 King's he served? That's who the Smartest Person in the World is trusting to protect "King" Jon in the South? 😂😂

[SeanC]

13 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

This is more like, Varys will work behind the scenes to protect Jon.

No, that's clearly not what Varys is contemplating.

[Colorful Mess]

4 minutes ago, ursula said:

Eroeh wasn't the help.

She was Dany's slave. 

Sansa didn't physically slap Jeyne Poole. And Sansa is not about to kill thousands of innocent people at this point in the story. 

5 minutes ago, ursula said:

Ned was the Lord of Winterfell, surrounded by his bannermen. He had a veritable army at his disposal, he knew Jon had family across the sea and he chose to raise him as a bastard and outcast and send him to the Wall. If that isn't textbook isolation, I don't know what is. But sure, when Ned does it for the better part of Jon's life, it suddenly becomes Noble.

What does this have to do with my point about Ned's desperate situation at the end of S1?

Sansa sees Jon as Ned in the south, isolated and alone and without protection. Jon is the one storming off down there without thinking.

She makes a play that is about protecting him, because people are more likely to protect the true heir who doesn't want to kill them all.

Sansa sees Dany as unstable and power-hungry and Jon is at risk around her, even without his family knowing! Sansa knows first hand what people in power will do to the people closest to them, when their power is threatened. Jon does that just by existing. 

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, kittykat said:

  Apparently I am also Team Unpopular Opinion because I'm liking some of the speculations most people hate and I'm one of like three people in the world that didn't hate 8.4.

Come sit by me.

Oh, we're out here, believe me.

I don't trust the latest leaker though, Simon.  He sounded legit with all his "some stuff can identify me and I can't answer those" and I do believe multiple scenes/endings were probably filmed for a few characters to throw people off.  My guesses are Dany, Jon, Cersei, Jaime, possibly Arya, and probably Tyrion.

For example, a scene with just a few people in a room, in one "ending" Jamie kills Cersei, in another, he finds her dying and dies with her.  It would be easy to do.  No extra make up or costuming, or stunts, possibly switching out extras in a scene with Tyrion, one in a "trial" the other just him making a speech to unite the survivors in peace.  One Arya walking alone and away, one with her joining a friend, etc.

I don't think Arya expects to ever return to Winterfell, because she thinks she will probably die killing Cersei (who was second on her list I believe, Joffrey was first.)

I haven't heard any spoilers about Faceless men or Arya with a different "face" but again, easy one to do well enough to fool extras.  Jon IS already dead, so Arya COULD take his face and kill Dany for example.  (not saying I think that happened, just think it could, and also could be faked.)

Some asked earlier about Brienne heading south and "breaking her vow" but I just wanted to throw in that her vow is also to protect Arya, and she may find out Ayra headed south, so she has a perfect reason to do that.  (not saying I think she does)

Edited May 7, 2019 by Umbelina
n

[Colorful Mess]

5 minutes ago, SeanC said:

No, that's clearly not what Varys is contemplating.

Varys works behind the scenes and waits for just the right moment to play his hand. He didn't survive this long being stupid. 

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, Colorful Mess said:

Varys works behind the scenes and waits for just the right moment to play his hand. He didn't survive this long being stupid. 

Well, based on what we know about next week...

[screamin]

4 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Also, how is Dany's plan of going right for the throne considered less humane than tyrions plan of starving the citizens? These writers have no idea what they're doing.

People can recover from starvation. Flash-frying them is a little more permanent.

Honestly, a siege of KL is probably the best idea right now. The new Prince of Dorne (who? Just go with it) has apparently vowed fealty to Dany, so there's a source of food, new men, and a place to winter. IIRC, Tyrion DID say it's still winter, so food will remain important. A relatively small number of men and ships can besiege the capital and cut off trade so that Cersei will eventually run out of both food and money to pay her mercenaries, while Dany keeps her last child out of crossbow range and can freely gather the rest of the country's fealty at her leisure.

Though of course, she won't get immediate revenge for Missandei that way.

Looking at these spoilers, it seems that Jon knows or will know that Arya's gone to the capital to take down Cersei, and is thus upset when KL is torched, as he thinks Arya is in there. If Jon knows this is a possibility, why doesn't he tell Dany that Cersei getting murdered by Arya is a possibility? How does he find out that Arya is there at all? Does she leave a note behind and does Sansa send it along by raven? So many questions, too little time.

[ursula]

29 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

She was Dany's slave. 

Sansa didn't physically slap Jeyne Poole. And Sansa is not about to kill thousands of innocent people at this point in the story. 

She was made a slave and Dany placed her under her protection. A small but important distinction. And you're right Sansa didn't physically assault Jeyne Poole. She just forgot that she existed. 

No, Sansa is just "encouraging" the Maester to slow poison her cousin. 

And at this point in the show, it's Sansa that is lighting fires in a powder keg situation. The fact that she's doing it from the shadows just makes her more despicable. Sansa has literally become Littlefinger  (apparently part of the set of superpowers she got from being raped and abused).

29 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

What does this have to do with my point about Ned's desperate situation at the end of S1?

It looks like you've lost the "textbook isolation" behavior thread.

Quote

Sansa knows first hand what people in power will do to the people closest to them, when their power is threatened. 

Well Sansa would know all about this. She's the one that used her baby brother and her half-brother as bait to lure Ramsay. Dany's decision to not just let Jon die during the Long Night must utterly baffle her. 

Sansa's a textbook (!) example of staring into the abyss too long. I just wish the show had the guts to explore that. 

16 minutes ago, screamin said:

People can recover from starvation.

Really? Babies? The old? The sick? They all just "recover" from slowly dying of hunger, being reduced to eating vermin and maybe even corpses? 

I mean as long as Tyrion* suggests it, it must be a good idea 😂 no matter how many leaps of logic it takes to make sense. 

*Or anybody with a dick at this point, let's be real.

Edited May 7, 2019 by ursula

[screamin]

10 minutes ago, ursula said:

I mean as long as Tyrion suggests it, it must be a good idea 😂 no matter how many leaps of logic it takes to make sense. 

Just because Tyrion says it doesn't mean it MUST be wrong (though I agree his average has been very bad lately).

11 minutes ago, ursula said:

Really? Babies? The old? The sick? They all just "recover" from slowly dying of hunger, being reduced to eating vermin and maybe even corpses? 

Are babies, the old and the sick less flammable than other people?

[Colorful Mess]

10 minutes ago, ursula said:

She was under Dany's protection, not her slave.

 No, Sansa is just "encouraging" the Maester to slow poison her cousin. 

And at this point in the story, it's Sansa that is lighting fires in a powder keg situation. The fact that she's doing it from the shadows just makes her more despicable. Sansa has literally become Littlefinger  (apparently part of the set of superpowers she got from being raped and abused).

Dany took her as her slave. "Protection" is what Dany thinks she's doing - later she slaps her. She typically works at cross-purposes like that. It's what makes her an interesting character.

...I think the rest of your comments aren't really debatable points, they're just rants about Sansa. My original post was about Dany's characterization.

[Stallion12]

Wait, Sans a has her cousin poisioned?

[ursula]

11 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

25 minutes ago, ursula said:

Dany took her as her slave. "Protection" is what Dany thinks she's doing - later she slaps her. She typically works at cross-purposes like that. It's what makes her an interesting character

And you're ignoring that if Dany hadn't taken Eroeh under her protection, she'd have been raped to death. Or that Dany specifically demanded that women not be raped or enslaved but married to their captors. (Which while far from ideal, gave them more protection than just being cartel). 

It's not a simple case of Dany randomly slapping a girl she "enslaved" for reasons. You're erasing the context to "rant about Dany". 

(See what I did there?)

Quote

I think the rest of your comments aren't really debatable points, they're just rants about Sansa. My original post was about Dany's characterization.

You attempted to justify Sansa's betrayal of Jon as a strategy to "protect" him so yeah, I definitely agree that this isn't debatable.

Edited May 7, 2019 by ursula

[DuckyinKy]

Just now, Stallion12 said:

Wait, Sans a has her cousin poisioned?

I believe we stumbled into the book talk by accident and I have never read the books. I was racking my brain trying to find video of Dany hitting a slave. Man - I have to give it up to everyone here, your minds are steel traps! 

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

This is quite nonsensical.  Dany accurately points out that if Jon doesn't want to be king, he shouldn't tell anybody about it, because once it gets out the pressure will progressively mount -- and she specifically says he's wrong to think that Sansa won't try to use the information, while Jon says she won't, and Dany is completely right.

Incidentally, I forgot to mention earlier when discussing the long-term implications of this resolution, when you consider how much this property has dined out on the idea that it's telling a serious drama about real politics, if the ending is "the answer to our problems is a god-king with no human attachments", that's going to render a lot of that null and void.

This particular one isn't on D&D, of course, but all the same.

I for one welcome our new Wikipedia overlord.

On a more serious note, if apolitical, zoned-out Bran is running the council, short of some dramatic increase in his level of interest in non-WW worldly affairs, then it seems likely that effectively Tyrion is the one in charge.

[GraceK]

I just want my life back!!  😂The anxiety this season has given me has seemed to take all joy out of this series and I think it will almost be a blessing when it’s all over. 🤦🏻‍♀️ I’m too invested to just walk away now , so close to the end... but it’s like a slow death crawl.

I’ll be the mad queen soon 😆

Edited May 7, 2019 by GraceK

[Colorful Mess]

30 minutes ago, ursula said:

You attempted to justify Sansa's betrayal of Jon as a strategy to "protect" him so yeah, I definitely agree that this isn't debatable.

Yeah, because she wants him out of a toxic relationship, so she tells the truth. Dany wants to keep telling lies. Dany would blow her top around Jon even if the people rallied around him as a bastard. It's inevitable. Just look at that feast scene - she's jealous about things he CAN'T EVEN CONTROL. This is textbook abusive.  

30 minutes ago, ursula said:

And you're ignoring that if Dany hadn't taken Eroeh under her protection, she'd have been raped to death. Or that Dany specifically demanded that women not be raped or enslaved but married to their captors. (Which while far from ideal, gave them more protection than just being cartel). 

It's not a simple case of Dany randomly slapping a girl she "enslaved" for reasons. You're erasing the context to "rant about Dany". 

(See what I did there?)

You are missing the entire irony at play here - she wants to FEEL good about saving people, ignoring how she is in the WARLORD position as the wife of the khal who is raiding towns and villages for HER THRONE. Eroeh end up being raped and killed anyway. The lesson is, conquering and saving are contradictory. Which is what we're finding out now in this episode as she tries to sell her vanity war as some superhero b.s. The slap is just a sign of something Viserys would do to his help. She's becoming her brother. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Colorful Mess

[ursula]

17 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Yeah, because she wants him out of a toxic relationship, so she tells the truth.

So by this context, Jon's relationship with Ned was also toxic? (I asked/raised the question about shifting metric but it was side stepped.)

17 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Just look at that feast scene - she's jealous about things he CAN'T EVEN CONTROL.

😂😂😂 That doesn't even align with what we're told in the BTS. You are literally presenting fanfiction as de facto. I guess Abusive!Dany is a slight step up from Double-agent!Jon. 

17 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

You are missing the entire irony at play here

And you're deliberately side stepping that Dany was young, growing and only just starting to navigate her new found agency. She was literally naive to the Dothraki's method of "building their war chest". Unlike Sansa Stark, born of privilege and literally immune to any suffering that wasn't directly impacting her, Dany tried to use her newfound agency to make a difference.

When later given an opportunity to purchase slaves, Dany turned it down and proceeded to liberate slaves. If Dany made it a habit of slapping underlings, this conclusion would make sense but it doesn't. Again, you're removing the true context of the situation and applying invented context to (and I'm quoting you) rant about Dany. Which is entirely your right but a rant isn't a discussion so I'll just bow out of this and let you have at it.

Edited May 7, 2019 by ursula

[rmontro]

The thing that irritates me about this ending is that the whole thing reads like a personal vendetta against Daenerys Stormborn.  Like her character was based off of GRRM's high school girlfriend who jilted him or something.  She was a fan favorite and a hero of previous seasons, and this is what they do to her:

Kill her own children in front of her, kill the people she loves the most, have her most trusted advisors turn against her, take her identity, then turn her into an evil, insane villain who has to be put down like a dog, by the man she loves the most, no less.  This isn't storytelling, this is a personal hit piece hatchet job, up close and intimate.

At least Milesandre got to go out on her own terms, and performed some heroics on her way out.  

And this isn't like Ned Stark, who was only around 10 episodes before getting killed.  Dany's been around since the show's beginning, and the show told us to root for her because Yara, Theon, Tryion, Varys, and Jon Snow all endorsed her.  We had every reason to be invested in her character, only to have this character assassination at the very end.  No redemptive arc, nothing.  It makes me sick in the pit of my stomach.

Besides which, Ned still lives on in his children, and apparently the Starks are the only ones allowed to wear the "good guy" mantles.

[ShellsandCheese]

Dany is a lot of things but she isn’t mad. If she had used more conventional methods of executing The Tarly’s we probably wouldn’t even be having this conversation. Her body count on he show is probably way lower than Jaime, Jon’s, Bronn’s, Tormund’s, the Hound, Arya (who killed every last living Frey make after serving up two sons in a fathers meat pie) and a host of other characters that people put on a pedestal.

Claiming that Dany is mad just because her dad was or just because she slapped a slave, killed some slave masters, and toasted a few Tarly’s is a silly argument. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

[WindyNights]

2 minutes ago, rmontro said:

The thing that irritates me about this ending is that the whole thing reads like a personal vendetta against Daenerys Stormborn.  Like her character was based off of GRRM's high school girlfriend who jilted him or something.  She was a fan favorite and a hero of previous seasons, and this is what they do to her:

Kill her own children in front of her, kill the people she loves the most, have her most trusted advisors turn against her, take her identity, then turn her into an evil, insane villain who has to be put down like a dog, by the man she loves the most, no less.  This isn't storytelling, this is a personal hit piece hatchet job, up close and intimate.

At least Milesandre got to go out on her own terms, and performed some heroics on her way out.  

And this isn't like Ned Stark, who was only around 10 episodes before getting killed.  Dany's been around since the show's beginning, and the show told us to root for her because Yara, Theon, Tryion, Varys, and Jon Snow all endorsed her.  We had every reason to be invested in her character, only to have this character assassination at the very end.  No redemptive arc, nothing.  It makes me sick in the pit of my stomach.

Besides which, Ned still lives on in his children, and apparently the Starks are the only ones allowed to wear the "good guy" mantles.

GRRM said that he was Daenerys Targaryen and that she has a lot of him in her. 

A character based off of GRRM's gf that jilted him is Lysa Tully.

Daenerys won't have any kids but her legacy lives on in all the people she liberated and saved (as well as Drogon the last dragon).

[WindyNights]

44 minutes ago, Stallion12 said:

Wait, Sans a has her cousin poisioned?

No, Littlefinger is poisoning little Robert Arryn in the books and trying to marry Sansa to his heir. Sansa doesn't actually know about it but she's accidentally enabling it. 

Considering that Robert Arryn is alive on the show, he might not succeed though.

[JennyMominFL]

 I  guess some saw Dany's story as a hero's journey and other saw it as a story of how the quest for power corrupts people. And maybe once e made up our minds we just  saw what we wanted to see.

Edited May 8, 2019 by JennyMominFL

[clack]

Daenerys has been portrayed as fatally flawed by her ambition since the end of Season 1 -- well-meaning, good-hearted, but driven by a desire for power, by a conviction of her own greatness.

How else is she going to end up but dead? Are we supposed to root, in this day and age, for the triumph of absolute monarchy?

[ursula]

9 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Sansa doesn't actually know about it but she's accidentally enabling it. 

She does. She literally tells the Maester to keep giving him the poison and she knows Littlefinger is plotting to marry her off to Sweetrobin's heir.

[rmontro]

5 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Claiming that Dany is mad just because her dad was or just because she slapped a slave, killed some slave masters, and toasted a few Tarly’s is a silly argument. 

I agree with you, but the SHOW is telling us she's mad, so that makes her mad.  In the ending at least.  It's part of the problem, they don't show us that she's mad, they tell us.  She was always ruthless and ambitious, but all the characters are flawed.  As a few other posters pointed out, Arya is ruthless, but that doesn't make her mad.  

And all along they've been planning to fight a war for control of Westeros (and to remove Cersei).  A war!  And now all of a sudden at the last minute, it's all "Hey, wait a minute, someone might get hurt".

4 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Daenerys won't have any kids but her legacy lives on in all the people she liberated and saved (as well as Drogon the last dragon).

I appreciate your trying to make me feel better, seriously. 

I've read different spoiler versions:

In one, Drogon flies off with Dany's body, in another Drogon is brought down by ballista bolts (after practically everything is burned already).  And in another Rhaegel emerges alive at the end.  So I don't know what happens.  If a dragon survives, I'll be a touch happier, but my gut feeling is they kill them all off.

[ursula]

4 minutes ago, clack said:

Daenerys has been portrayed as fatally flawed by her ambition since the end of Season 1 -- well-meaning, good-hearted, but driven by a desire for power, by a conviction of her own greatness.

How else is she going to end up but dead? Are we supposed to root, in this day and age, for the triumph of absolute monarchy?

So who do we root for? The Lords who are basically Kings of their dominions one step removed? Seven Kings for the price of One? How is this better? Or even inherently stable? And that's not even going into the fact that Dany (and Arya but she's not vying for the throne) is literally the only person on the show who's ever given a damn about the smallfolk.

[aprilbabe]

Lawd it looks like this confirms the leaks. Bells fucking Bells make her snap. This is worse than I thought and honestly legit made me laugh. I can't even be mad, just laugh because what I am picturing is ridiculous.

 The show got dragged for their misogyny this ep by critics.  Now they are about the have the brown people raping and murdering the lily white women and children.  They are about to have their asses handed to them. How can D&D be that damn dense? Like really.

[JennyMominFL]

1 minute ago, ursula said:

So who do we root for? The Lords who are basically Kings of their dominions one step removed? Seven Kings for the price of One? How is this better? Or even inherently stable? And that's not even going into the fact that Dany (and Arya but she's not vying for the throne) is literally the only person on the show who's ever given a damn about the smallfolk.

I root for no throne at all. That's what Ive always wanted at the end. I just cant bring myself to root for an absolute monarch ruling at the end of the show. I dont want Cersei or Dany or Jon or anyone on the throne.  But I  do want to see certain people pay like Cersei and Euron, the ones who are purely evil.

[JennyMominFL]

4 minutes ago, aprilbabe said:

Lawd it looks like this confirms the leaks. Bells fucking Bells make her snap. This is worse than I thought and honestly legit made me laugh. I can't even be mad, just laugh because what I am picturing is ridiculous.

 The show got dragged for their misogyny this ep by critics.  Now they are about the have the brown people raping and murdering the lily white women and children.  They are about to have their asses handed to them. How can D&D be that damn dense? Like really.

I dont think this sounds legit

[aprilbabe]

Just now, JennyMominFL said:

I dont think this sounds legit

Apparently, the poster gave complete outlines for season 7/. Checked her post history. Seems totally legit.

[MarySNJ]

8 hours ago, John Potts said:

That would be inconsistent (IMO) with the tone of the series (Book and show) - in GRRM's world, people are incapable of putting aside their petty disputes, even when facing the Snowpocalypse. Why would they suddenly become reasonable when they're no imminent threat? It's a pessimistic view of human nature, but I think a fairly consistent one.

This is a good point. That’s a terribly jaded view of human nature. Like every other ASOIAF book reader I’ve been waiting years for TWOW and I had an expectation that we will eventually get ADOS and some kind of “bittersweet” ending.

But now, I think GRRM is either so jaded, or has such a twisted view of what bittersweet means that I will put the books on the back shelf and move on. It makes me sad, but after ADWD I was thoroughly depressed and the only thing keeping me holding on was the dream of Spring.  Maybe someday if GRRM finishes the series and makes good on  his promise of a bittersweet ending, I’ll think about reading them from my nursing home between naps. 

[GraceK]

So now bells make her snap? 😂😂😂😂😂

[ShellsandCheese]

Who’s doing the raping? The Unsullied don’t have dicks and last time I checked there weren’t any Dothraki left. And seriously bells? The sound of bells? Like this spoilers are so friggin stupid that they must be true. 

I also noticed the spoilers said The Unsullied fuck up the city - where’s the GC? My expectations for the last two episodes have plummeted so much since the start of the season. I’ll just have to watch and laugh at the ridiculousness of it all. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

[ursula]

10 minutes ago, aprilbabe said:

Now they are about the have the brown people raping and murdering the lily white women and children.  

Aren't the Unsullied fricking eunuchs? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Who’s doing the raping? The Unsullied don’t have dicks and last time I checked there weren’t any Dothraki left. And seriously bells? The sound of bells? Like this spoilers are so friggin stupid that they must be true. 

Why bells though? It’s so bizarre. I think D and D are the crazy ones. This sudden influx of more extreme leaks are suspicious.

[aprilbabe]

Just now, ursula said:

Aren't the Unsullied fricking eunuchs? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

I am assuming there will magically be some Dorthraki left. 

[JennyMominFL]

1 minute ago, aprilbabe said:

I am assuming there will magically be some Dorthraki left. 

There are some left

[Eyes High]

There was a WOTW casting call for a female villager that needed to be in a physical scene requiring waist-up nudity and a soldier for the same physical scene. So there is some sexual assault going on, since we haven’t seen a scene of that nature yet and we won’t in 8x06 (I’m guessing).

[GraceK]

4 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

There was a WOTW casting call for a female villager that needed to be in a physical scene requiring waist-up nudity and a soldier for the same physical scene. So there is some sexual assault going on, since we haven’t seen a scene of that nature yet and we won’t in 8x06 (I’m guessing).

Damn I forgot about that 

[Umbelina]

5 minutes ago, aprilbabe said:

I am assuming there will magically be some Dorthraki left. 

Half of Dany's forces are left, isn't that what they said last episode in the war room?  So, probably half of the Dothraki's as well.

Again, it's GRRM's ending guys.   He's well aware and has said many times that all armies rape, and that everyone is fooling themselves if they think it still isn't happening right now.

[Morrigan2575]

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

She makes a play that is about protecting him, because people are more likely to protect the true heir who doesn't want to kill them all.

I'm like 99.9% convinced I'm wrong but, I'd love it, if this was all a setup by the Starks. It would actually make Jon interesting of he either played Sansa or decided with his Pack to make a play in the game. I mean Dany flat out told him what Sansa would do if she knew. It would be nice to see Jon's armor tarnished a bit. Instead of making him Need Stark levels of trusting/honorable/dumb

Edited May 8, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[JennyMominFL]

42 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

 I  guess some saw Dany's story as a hero's journey and other saw it as a story of how the quest for power corrupts people. And maybe once we made up our minds we just  saw what we wanted to see.

[rmontro]

32 minutes ago, clack said:

Daenerys has been portrayed as fatally flawed by her ambition since the end of Season 1 -- well-meaning, good-hearted, but driven by a desire for power, by a conviction of her own greatness.

How else is she going to end up but dead? Are we supposed to root, in this day and age, for the triumph of absolute monarchy?

I'm cool with Dany not getting the throne, and I've thought all along that she would probably end up dead.  There was talk all along about Jon killing her in some sort of Azor Ahai parallel.  But I am not cool with what they are doing, they are just butchering her and her character.

If she had died a heroic death, or gone out on her own terms like Milesandre, that would be bittersweet.  I had figured Jon Snow would take the Iron Throne after Dany was dead and take charge of the dragons.  This just sours me on the whole franchise.

By the way, I believe they said last episode half the Dothraki survived (don't ask me how).

[aprilbabe]

7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Half of Dany's forces are left, isn't that what they said last episode in the war room?  So, probably half of the Dothraki's as well.

Again, it's GRRM's ending guys.   He's well aware and has said many times that all armies rape, and that everyone is fooling themselves if they think it still isn't happening right now.

I can completely buy that the fates of the characters are the same. But how that got there that's all D&D. Yes, armies rape and pillage. But somethings just don't transfer well to TV. They upped the ages of the characters because having characters that young in the situations the GOT puts them it wasn't going to work on TV. The only people of color raping and murdering like crazy people ain't going to play well. The fact the D&D don't know any better is frightening.

[ShellsandCheese]

4 minutes ago, rmontro said:

By the way, I believe they said last episode half the Dothraki survived (don't ask me how).

Convenient plot device. Someone had to be left do all of that raping and pillaging.  

[Eyes High]

Content warnings are out for 8x05: adult content, adult language, and graphic violence. No nudity warnings, so that makes me wonder about the mass rape info from gotit4111.

As a reminder, the incredibly violent 8x03 only rated a violence and not a graphic violence warning. Buckle up!

Edited May 8, 2019 by Eyes High

[rmontro]

3 minutes ago, aprilbabe said:

I can completely buy that the fates of the characters are the same. But how that got there that's all D&D. Yes, armies rape and pillage.

Okay, the Dothraki are a randy bunch.  But I hope they're not going to pretend like the Westeros armies are too good to rape and pillage.  There are numerous instances of it in the books.

[anamika]

In the books, the major final conflict is with the Others and Nissa Nissa is a thing. Yes, a female character is still getting fridged for a main character and that's ugly, but I think at least there Dany would have more agency and would choose to make that sacrifice.

As opposed to being put down like a mad dog by her lover after being schemed against and betrayed by everyone.

Context and story and journey matters. Waiting till the very end to turn against Dany destroys all the characters, destroys the story and there is nothing here at the end.

No wonder GRRM said this:

Quote

“I mean, would I prefer they do it exactly the way I did it? Sure. It can also be… traumatic. Because sometimes their creative vision and your creative vision don’t match”

D&D have totally destroyed his characters and story. He deserves it for leaving it up to these hacks and not writing a book in 9 years, but I feel for me and the other fans for having invested this much time in this trash.

Is the sweet part supposed to be about the Starks making it? Arya is just a quote generator from the early seasons repeating the same 'That's not me' dialogue and apparently just fucks off at the end. Bran has no personality other than to sit there and stare and apparently the North is going to end up with the brand new LF in charge of them - poor Ned - what a legacy.  Jon goes off North, Dany is dead, and Tyrion , Bronn, Sam and Davos rule.

At least it's an ending to this misery fest. Now I know how it ends for all them. And that's that.

I have had my fill of Westeros as of now. I don't think I am going to watch the prequels. Amazon's LOTR and Wheel of Time is waiting for me, the Expanse's new season is coming up and there are much better written and more entertaining shows out.

20 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm like 99.9% convinced I'm wrong but, I'd love it, if this was all a setup by the Starks. It would actually make Jon interesting of he either played Sansa or decided with his Pack to make a play in the game. I mean Dany flat out told him what Sansa would do if she knew. It would be nice to see Jon's armor tarnished a bit. Instead of making him Need Stark levels of trusting/honorable/dumb

There's only one schemer in this family who actively plotted against Jon. And that's Sansa.

And no Ned Stark was not dumb. He held onto that secret for most of his life. The idiot here was Sansa who broke her brother's trust and tries to turn people against Dany because she was jealous of her.

20 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Edited May 8, 2019 by anamika