Mrs. Waterford: The gender traitor

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, Earlwoode said:

There’s a war going on?  Where? Against whom? One of the annoying things about this show is that they’d never show you how this perfect little society sprang into being with laws, rituals, identical burqas and uniforms for all the women and even speech mannerisms all put in place in the space of...what?  Two years?  It’s just not credible.  They seem like a society that has existed for hundreds of years and has had time to put in place and hone all of these strange customs.  Because let’s face it, the society they supposedly came from was one the most advanced and educated in the world (the first world, in fact) not exactly a backwards, uneducated place where women were already subjugated.  Seems really hard to imagine how all this sprang into place so tidily.

 

Gilead is strongly established in the Boston area of the mainland USA, but there is a resistance in other places fighting the Gilead army. Gilead is fighting a war against USA citizens restisting the take over- in season 1 Rita mentioned that her son died fighting in the war (it’s not over). 

As for the bolded part- think about how many years it took for swastikas to appear all over Germany (which was a center of intelligence, sophistication and artistic freedom), slogans to be common place and many of its citizens murdered and forced into hiding by the Third Reich- not generations or even decades. Think about what happened in Iran....Margaret Atwood used historical examples to build her Gilead. 

Edited June 9, 2018 by Scarlett45

[Earlwoode]

There is a difference between hanging up swastika and killing people and having all these rituals in place: the blessed day crap that everyone seems to automatically know the response to; the women pretending to go through child labour in a highly ritualized ceremony;  the act of the “ceremony” (rape) itself which seems to be the same in every household; the fact that everyone’s wears the same clothing. These are things which take years to establish. You can’t really compare it to Iran where women were already oppressed and were quite used to seeing burqas about.  They just forced them all to wear the item - it’s not like it was something foreign that was introduced into their culture. These Puritanical behavior changes are incredibly foreign to a modern day America.  There is the fact that most Americans own (and love) guns.  Can anyone imagine a government demanding all Americans give them up just like that?  Yeah right, there would be a civil war in the streets before that happened.

i presume Gilead is a very small area then? Why do they need to run to Canada If the rest of the US is at war with them?  Surely they would just need to escape to a zone outside the Gilead borders (whatever those may be)?

Edited June 9, 2018 by Earlwoode

[GraceK]

2 hours ago, Earlwoode said:

There is the fact that most Americans own (and love) guns.  Can anyone imagine a government demanding all Americans give them up just like that?  Yeah right, there would be a civil war in the streets before that happened.

Seriously. There are people preparing for that very specific situation every day. What happened to the NRA? You bring up many good points . Hannah doesn’t even seem to have aged that much , so exactly how much time has passed? A year? Two? And all this has happened? The longer this goes on the more I have to suspend disbelief.

[DangerousMinds]

Many Americans own guns,  but most?

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, Earlwoode said:

There is a difference between hanging up swastika and killing people and having all these rituals in place: the blessed day crap that everyone seems to automatically know the response to; the women pretending to go through child labour in a highly ritualized ceremony;  the act of the “ceremony” (rape) itself which seems to be the same in every household; the fact that everyone’s wears the same clothing. These are things which take years to establish. You can’t really compare it to Iran where women were already oppressed and were quite used to seeing burqas about.  They just forced them all to wear the item - it’s not like it was something foreign that was introduced into their culture. These Puritanical behavior changes are incredibly foreign to a modern day America.  There is the fact that most Americans own (and love) guns.  Can anyone imagine a government demanding all Americans give them up just like that?  Yeah right, there would be a civil war in the streets before that happened.

i presume Gilead is a very small area then? Why do they need to run to Canada If the rest of the US is at war with them?  Surely they would just need to escape to a zone outside the Gilead borders (whatever those may be)?

 

We don't know how big it is, but it's more than just Boston, since only Hawaii and Alaska remain of the USA.  We will hopefully learn more, I was hoping to when the Commander's arrived from other areas.  It's a fiction that guns alone could stop a war these days.  They would help in guerilla warfare in some areas, but that's it.

Guns are useless against the largest military force in the world.  The USA has a very well equipped armed forces, and most of that now belongs to Gilead.  Good luck with an assault rifle against drones, tanks, planes, predators and all the rest.  There ARE many areas of resistance though.  That's why the Wives knit scarves for the soldiers.

3 hours ago, GraceK said:

Seriously. There are people preparing for that very specific situation every day. What happened to the NRA? You bring up many good points . Hannah doesn’t even seem to have aged that much , so exactly how much time has passed? A year? Two? And all this has happened? The longer this goes on the more I have to suspend disbelief.

The NRA would have historically been behind Gilead, since it was founded because of "Islamic extremism" murdering our elected leaders.  If you go back and watch, June is piecing together how it all happened throughout the season.  Or the book thread might be even more helpful to you.  Fundamentalist would have supported the "back to God" crap as well, at least in the crucial beginnings of this totalitarian regime, where supposedly the USA had been attacked from the damn Muslims, and brave men and our Army rallied to defeat them, martial law was merely a sacrifice people initially made in a "all for one" type of way.  Many of the key generals and Admirals were in on the Coup from the beginning.

Protesters were gunned down.

Sorry, mods, I should have taken this to another thread.  Won't happen again.

Edited June 9, 2018 by Umbelina

[GraceK]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

he NRA would have historically been behind Gilead, since it was founded because of "Islamic extremism" murdering our elected leaders.  If you go back and watch, June is piecing together how it all happened throughout the season.  Or the book thread might be even more helpful to you.  Fundamentalist would have supported the "back to God" crap as well, at least in the crucial beginnings of this totalitarian regime, where supposedly the USA had been attacked from the damn Muslims, and brave men and our Army rallied to defeat them, martial law was merely a sacrifice people initially made in a "all for one" type of way.  Many of the key generals and Admirals were in on the Coup from the beginning.

Protesters were gunned down.

Sorry, mods, I should have taken this to another thread.  Won't happen again.

Thanks for the info. To be honest I don’t know much about the NRA ?

[Pachengala]

The NRA leadship dovetails nicely with Gilead’s values, frankly. Their hypothetical assistance with the fictional Gilead would probably be invaluable.

[Earlwoode]

I don’t believe the NRA has the same values as Gilead at all.  Are they all fundamentalist Christians? I doubt that very much. They just want to have the right to own guns - I doubt the majority of them want to impose Puritanical Christian beliefs on anyone. I don’t see them as a homogeneous group in their religious beliefs (but if I am wrong please give me some statistics). Frankly, I see the fear of this coming much more from a Muslim majority since Muslim societies already impose almost every oppressive thing you find in Gilead on females.  In fact, I think M Atwood must have modeled Gillead on fundamentalist Muslim societies since the oppression of women is so similar.

As to Gilead controlling the US army, well that would depend on how much territory they controlled after the coup.  Again I ask, if there was a coup and there is a War, who are they fighting against?  I can’t see a coup in the US being homogeneous and everyone just agreeing to it. In fact, coups and revolutions only succeed if you control the armed forces and I can see many factions of the US armed forces not collaborating with a civilian, religious coup and that would lead to civil war.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Earlwoode

[Umbelina]

43 minutes ago, Earlwoode said:

As to Gilead controlling the US army, well that would depend on how much territory they controlled after the coup.  Again I ask, if there was a coup and there is a War, who are they fighting against?  I can’t see a coup in the US being homogeneous and everyone just agreeing to it. In fact, coups and revolutions only succeed if you control the armed forces and I can see many factions of the US armed forces not collaborating with a civilian, religious coup and that would lead to civil war.

Edited 34 minutes ago by Earlwoode.

They control the contiguous continental USA.  There are several pockets of resistance throughout that area.  Parts of that area are suffering from droughts, pesticides and herbicides over use, global warming problems, and areas of nuclear power plant accidents and meltdowns.  The wars the soldiers are fighting are with those protesting and resisting. 

I will move further answers to a more appropriate thread.  I can't delete the dang quote to move this one.

Serena?  I hope she kicks Fred's ass someday.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Umbelina

[kieyra]

 Isn’t this thread supposed to be about Serena? 

[Umbelina]

Just now, kieyra said:

 Isn’t this thread supposed to be about Serena? 

Yes, and I foolishly responded twice, and can't really delete the quotes to move them to another thread.

I'm happy to know Serena hates knitting.  I really loved watching her and June interact this week, and her saving the family from death, and her insisting on saving that baby...well worth a beating.

I hope the women in the cast continue in these ways, but I worry that more than a spanking/beating is in store if the do.

[Earlwoode]

10 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I will move further answers to a more appropriate thread.  I can't delete the dang quote to move this one

Sorry, I didn’t realize you couldn’t talk about certain things.  I’m not sure how these forums actually work?  So where can you talk about the general happenings of Gilead since I’ve never read the book and find a lot of things happening in the series very confusing?

As to Serena, I find her the most fascinating and interesting character of all.  I can’t really see where the mealy-mouthed June is heading.  She has me confused with her supposed love of Nick while being married to another man whom she also professes to love.  Is it too much to hope that Serena will eventually realize how wrong this place she helped bring about is and what a cage she has built for herself?

[lucindabelle]

58 minutes ago, Earlwoode said:

 

 

Quote

.  Is it too much to hope that Serena will eventually realize how wrong this place she helped bring about is and what a cage she has built for herself?

That’s my hope. I’m here for the redemption arc. Serena hates  Gilead.

Edited June 10, 2018 by lucindabelle

[AnswersWanted]

3 hours ago, Earlwoode said:

Sorry, I didn’t realize you couldn’t talk about certain things.  I’m not sure how these forums actually work?  So where can you talk about the general happenings of Gilead since I’ve never read the book and find a lot of things happening in the series very confusing?

 

If you are not talking about a specific episode then there are two threads where you can openly discuss the dealings in Gilead, one is here: PALIMPSEST: NOVEL VS. SHOW and this one: BLESSED BE: QUESTIONS FROM NON-BOOK READERS, ANSWERS FROM BOOK READERS (This thread contains book spoilers). 

 

3 hours ago, Earlwoode said:

As to Serena, I find her the most fascinating and interesting character of all.  I can’t really see where the mealy-mouthed June is heading.  She has me confused with her supposed love of Nick while being married to another man whom she also professes to love.  Is it too much to hope that Serena will eventually realize how wrong this place she helped bring about is and what a cage she has built for herself?

 

When she began to be forced out of the inner circle of leaders and soon found herself stripped of mostly all her rights, not just as a woman but a person as well, I have no doubt Serena realized how “wrong” she’d been. 

 And not just wrong, but also naïve, ridiculous, dumb, blind, stupid, and frankly duped, just to name a few. 

 To me though, it doesn’t matter if she ever admits to what she already knows, that she helped to create an absolute hell on earth well promising to give the people of the US heaven. 

 Everything that has come to pass by Serena’s own hand, her own interference, her own decisions and choices, there is no way for her to truly make amends, I personally feel anyway. 

 All the lives that Serena is personally responsible for destroying: she tore apart the country, she ripped parents from their children, she helped to enslave countless people when their former work and jobs were invalidated, she has okayed young child brides to be given away, she is okay with women being systematically raped just so people like her can have a baby, she’s okay with people being tortured and hung on a public death wall whenever it suits the regime, she’s fine with women being sent to toxic waste death camps as if they’re no longer deserving of one ounce of compassion or kindness, they are labeled as no longer human even, “unwomen”. 

  Serena is just like any other demented war criminal, apologies and regret can’t make up for the fact that you had a direct part in murder, rape, religious oppression, the removal of the rights to one’s personhood, there’s nothing she can ever do or say to make up for all of the destruction and death and turmoil and pain. 

In my eyes Serena needs to be and deserves to be punished for her crimes and there’s only one fitting punishment for someone like her. 

Edited June 10, 2018 by AnswersWanted

[Wiendish Fitch]

14 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

When she began to be forced out of the inner circle of leaders and soon found herself stripped of mostly all her rights, not just as a woman but a person as well, I have no doubt Serena realized how “wrong” she’d been. 

 And not just wrong, but also naïve, ridiculous, dumb, blind, stupid, and frankly duped, just to name a few. 

 Tell me though, it doesn’t matter if she ever admits to what she already knows, that she helped to create an absolute hell on earth well promising to give the people of the US heaven. 

 Everything that has come to pass by Serena’s own hand, her own interference, her own decisions and choices, there is no way for her to truly make amends, I personally feel anyway. 

 All the lives that Serena is personally responsible for destroying: she tore apart the country, she ripped parents from their children, she helped to enslave countless people when their former work and jobs were invalidated, she has okayed young child brides to be given away, she is okay with women being systematically raped just so people like her can have a baby, she’s okay with people being tortured and hung on a public death wall whenever it suits the regime, she’s fine with women being sent to toxic waste death camps as if they’re no longer deserving of one ounce of compassion or kindness, they are labeled as no longer human even, “unwomen”. 

  Serena is just like any other demented war criminal, apologies and regret can’t make up for the fact that you had a direct part in murder, rape, religious oppression, the removal of the rights to one’s personhood, there’s nothing she can ever do or say to make up for all of the destruction and death and turmoil and pain. 

In my eyes Serena needs to be and deserves to be punished for her crimes and there’s only one fitting punishment for someone like her. 

To this, I can only say: AMEN.

[Ceindreadh]

I would be inclined to show Serena mercy...that is, Aunt Lydia's idea of mercy and give her a quick execution. 

Commander Waterford on the other hand, I would send him to the colonies until his balls rot off and only then maybe put him out of his misery. 

[Umbelina]

I honestly agree with that excellent post early in this week's episode thread that postulates that Serena Joy was closed out of all final negotiations of Gilead, and probably had absolutely no intentions that Gilead should become like it is now.  Yes, she wanted to keep women in the house and having babies instead of careers, and her initial persuasiveness helped this nightmare into being, so she has blame no matter what.

However, I think when the men pushed her out as we saw last season, her original plans morphed into a nightmare.  She certainly didn't want to give up sex with her husband and have a handmaid "ceremony" or not be allowed to write or read, or have other women be prohibited from reading, they were the primary ones who bought her books probably.  I also sincerely doubt she wanted to wear the same dress every day.

She did help start it, so for that she's certainly responsible, I just don't think she had any intentions of it morphing into the monster it is now, but like a snowball gathering snow and rocks rolling down a mountain side?  She couldn't stop it once she started it going. 

It kind of reminds me of some women today, trying to take away other women's rights citing God, and returning to the good old days.  Be careful what you wish for.

[Earlwoode]

4 hours ago, AnswersWanted said:

If you are not talking about a specific episode then there are two threads where you can openly discuss the dealings in Gilead, one is here: PALIMPSEST: NOVEL VS. SHOW and this one: BLESSED BE: QUESTIONS FROM NON-BOOK READERS, ANSWERS FROM BOOK READERS (This thread contains book spoilers). 

Ok if you really want to help, Jeez tell me where the Help section is on this site?  I can’t, for the life of me, figure out how to add the forums I’m interested in to my home page ?  Where does one go for instructions?

[dleighg]

I dunno about a specific help page, but to add a forum to your home page, click the "bell" icon next to the name of the forum (inside the forum). Not immediately obvious, I'll give you that. You can also use the bell icon at the bottom of the thread.

[AnswersWanted]

In season one there's the scene where Serena and Fred go to the movies, and as they are sitting there right before the movie begins Fred gets a text that lets him know the proposal has been approved and that the attacks are going to go through.

Fred is the one that looks uncertain and a bit shell shocked that what they have often talked about and discussed is about to come to fruition.

Serena is the one reassuring him that it is god's will.

"Praise be" she chirps, stating that they are going to "save people" and get rid of their pain.

We alredy knew the plan was for them to literally blow up Washington DC and to eradicate anyone who might stand in their way from imposing their laws and their beliefs without any resistance. 

A woman who could see the slaughtering of countless "sinners" in government that stood in their way as part of the "grand design" is more than heartless enough to label other women as unfit to read, to write, to have choice of clothing, or makeup, or even freedom to work or walk without constant supervision.

 When I look at Serina I see a woman who elevated herself above most others.

She looked at women like June, like Moira, like Emily, like Rita, as her lesser thans. 

 They needed to be corralled, and they needed to be reassigned to their true roles as god would intend.

To serve, to produce babies, to not be a gender traitor that goes against the natural order. 

 They were not followers of her god, they did not obey his commands, they obviously were not following "the bible" in living justly and righteously, so for those women why wouldn't she want to see them under the regine's total control?

My opinion is that Serena did not see those like herself being affected. 

  She saw herself as a holy woman, therefore why would she somehow be punished or put aside in a godly world, especially one she helped build and bring to life. 

 I have no problem believing Serena did come up with all of those rules for certain women, she just did not believe they would ever apply to her or her ilk, that was the biggest joke of all.

[Umbelina]

32 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

In season one there's the scene where Serena and Fred go to the movies, and as they are sitting there right before the movie begins Fred gets a text that lets him know the proposal has been approved and that the attacks are going to go through.

Fred is the one that looks uncertain and a bit shell shocked that what they have often talked about and discussed is about to come to fruition.

Serena is the one reassuring him that it is god's will.

"Praise be" she chirps, stating that they are going to "save people" and get rid of their pain.

Yes, and right after that?  She was shut out of all decision making.  It shocked her.

Maybe she wanted all of this, but honestly, I can't really see it.  She obviously still wanted to have sex with her husband, she detests that impregnating ceremony, she doesn't like being in a uniform, she hates knitting, was thrilled to be writing again, and appreciated June's contributions with editing, she immediately went to find that formerly famous doctor who is now a Martha.

While she may have thought she'd be immune to a lot of this, I honestly don't think she really thought, in her wildest dreams, Gilead would become this, with only men having privileges, or cars, or music, or books.  For example, while she definitely wanted more women of child bearing age to focus on raising a family instead of having a career, I seriously doubt she thought that would be the end of every career for any woman.  While she may have wanted to be one of the Queen Bees?  I don't think she ever expected that she could no longer even have decent conversations with other women substance, she still thought she'd be writing books, and both sexes would read them. 

Honestly, I can't imagine she thought she'd have a handmaid in her house, or even that it would go so far as to have official handmaids.

[mamadrama]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, and right after that?  She was shut out of all decision making.  It shocked her.

Maybe she wanted all of this, but honestly, I can't really see it.  She obviously still wanted to have sex with her husband, she detests that impregnating ceremony, she doesn't like being in a uniform, she hates knitting, was thrilled to be writing again, and appreciated June's contributions with editing, she immediately went to find that formerly famous doctor who is now a Martha.

While she may have thought she'd be immune to a lot of this, I honestly don't think she really thought, in her wildest dreams, Gilead would become this, with only men having privileges, or cars, or music, or books.  For example, while she definitely wanted more women of child bearing age to focus on raising a family instead of having a career, I seriously doubt she thought that would be the end of every career for any woman.  While she may have wanted to be one of the Queen Bees?  I don't think she ever expected that she could no longer even have decent conversations with other women substance, she still thought she'd be writing books, and both sexes would read them. 

Honestly, I can't imagine she thought she'd have a handmaid in her house, or even that it would go so far as to have official handmaids.

Yes, I agree. There were many people involved in the structuring of Gilead and I have a difficult time believing that everyone's left hands knew what everyone else's right hands were doing. It's difficult to know how much Serena Joy knew at any given time or how many things were her ideas (or how many things that she suggested that were not used). We know that she didn't have a hand in creating the "ceremony"; even the men in charge were laughing about calling it a "ceremony", saying that the wives would "eat it up." They knew that screwing other women to "get them pregnant" (my parenthesis because I don't believe that's what their ultimate goal was) would piss off their wives so they were clearly trying to sugar coat it for them. 

In some ways I see SJ as one of the true believers, much like Aunt Lydia. While I don't agree with her, and don't like her that much, SJ truly seemed to be in it for the children (and all that encompassed) and seemed to think that what the SoJ were doing was ultimately for the betterment of the country and its people-much like Aunt Lydia truly seems to be grateful for the births/children and appears to honestly think she's doing right by the Handmaids' souls. These examples are much different from people like Fred who truly just seems to be in it for the power. 

I feel like every time I write something like that I am defending Serena Joy. I'm not. There are a lot of complicated gray areas in this show, though, and making an attempt to understand the gray is something that I feel is important. It's really difficult to defeat evil when you don't have a clear idea of how the evil formed or what it is. 

[Umbelina]

I just can't see Serena designing this kind of life, I think that was all men, and that door closing in her face was when all of these decisions were beginning to be made.  Her input wasn't wanted, and was not accepted.

On 6/5/2018 at 11:53 PM, LittleRed84 said:

1) There is so much in this episode to consider! But first I have to play Devil's advocate here for a second regarding Serena Joy. Hear me out. (I just watched an interview with Yvonne Strahovski and she shed light on what makes Serena tick)... Here's something to ponder:

Many people make statements about Serena like- too bad so sad this is "the world she created" etc etc. I really do NOT believe that this is the Republic she had in mind and the ideas she wanted to share that day she was turned away in the courthouse. In flashbacks we saw her speaking out publicly regarding declining birth rates and how women should return to a more "domestic" lifestyle and concentrate on raising families in the midst of a world that had become overrun by drugs, lust, greed, etc. I believe her intentions were pure. Correct me if I'm forgetting something, but I don't remember her advocating for women's enslavement or rape or being stripped of their rights when planning Gilead? Nor do I remember her saying women should be banned from writing, reading, etc. She basically admitted that to the Ambassador Castillo from Mexico in the office meeting- that she never envisioned a world in which women could not read her book. Yes, Serena was for the overthrow of the government. But she was shut out of the planning stages very very early on for Gilead. Remember the first conversation about Handmaid's in the car between Commanders Waterford, Pryce, and one other commander regarding "rounding up the fertile women and impregnating them"? That was after Serena had been shut out. By that point she had no input. Just like in this episode... we like to say "fight back!" or "don't go along with it!", but what can she really do? They could execute her or send her to the Colonies for going against the law, just like all those dead bodies hanging after the bombing. She can't bear children, so if the Commander doesn't want her, she is of no use.

Anyway, I don't think this is the world she wanted. And of course I'm TeamJune all the way. But if you really think deep, if you were banned from having sex with your own husband, not allowed to think for yourself or read or write or own anything... and had to watch him have sex with another woman because you took a bullet for the cause that created this Republic... would you not also be hateful and bitter? June is the only person Serena has control over and unfortunately she takes out all her anger and frustration on her... everything else must stay pent up. Totally not saying all of Serena's actions are justified at ALL... just that she's human and people crack and become other people under this type of stress and dehumanizing. She's imprisoned in this world she rallied for... but I don't think this is the world she thought was going to happen. I don't think this is what was on those little note cards she wrote up pre-Gilead... 

Okay on to the next!

2) Not sure the rules about theories, so I'll hide this just in case:

  Reveal hidden contents

I think that Martha-turned-Doctor (vice versa actually) might end up being punished for her actions... I hope not, she didn't even know what she was getting into! But Gilead isn't known for being reasonable... I hope we don't see her on the wall... :(

3) I don't think that Eden read those letters! She knows the rules and isn't a normal nosy teenager- she's a true believer. But I bet now she's suspicious due to his big reaction! I think she really wants to be loved and do a good job. But a woman scorned..... just a thought.

4) I think a main motive for Fred beating Serena in front of June was to drive a wedge between them. When he saw the music box, and THEN that rose.... it's very easy to see that they are getting along and bonding. Red flag for him. Plus they were both gone? And then he pieced together that they were both working on the documents together. He can't have 2 strong willed and smart women bonding behind his back and breaking laws- it's a threat. And that's exactly what happened. He preferred it when they hated each other and June needed to seek refuge in his office for some companionship. So, he whips Serena in front of June. Serena was embarrassed and ashamed. It's bad enough she just now realized the monster she is married to, but also that it happened in front of June. Just as Fred wanted, Serena turned cold again towards June and sends her away. He's very manipulative. I think that was his main intention. The joy of asserting his power and beating her was icing on his cake. Sick, sick man. But I think eventually, maybe it will backfire. Perhaps he will become both of their common enemy? 

Basically, I love this post, and I agree with almost, if not all of it.  It was perfect in the episode thread, but I decided to preserve it in Serena Joy's thread as well.

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, and right after that?  She was shut out of all decision making.  It shocked her.

Maybe she wanted all of this, but honestly, I can't really see it.  She obviously still wanted to have sex with her husband, she detests that impregnating ceremony, she doesn't like being in a uniform, she hates knitting, was thrilled to be writing again, and appreciated June's contributions with editing, she immediately went to find that formerly famous doctor who is now a Martha.

While she may have thought she'd be immune to a lot of this, I honestly don't think she really thought, in her wildest dreams, Gilead would become this, with only men having privileges, or cars, or music, or books.  For example, while she definitely wanted more women of child bearing age to focus on raising a family instead of having a career, I seriously doubt she thought that would be the end of every career for any woman.  While she may have wanted to be one of the Queen Bees?  I don't think she ever expected that she could no longer even have decent conversations with other women substance, she still thought she'd be writing books, and both sexes would read them. 

Honestly, I can't imagine she thought she'd have a handmaid in her house, or even that it would go so far as to have official handmaids.

I agree with this, but it's still chilling to me that Serena chose to align herself with the ultra-right wing to espouse her agenda. There was a myriad of positive changes she could have lobbied for to address the declining birthrate: financial/tax incentives for each child, state-subsidized daycare so women wouldn't have to choose between working and having children, environmental regulations and clean energy, more investment in reproductive research/medicine, the list goes on. We know that she's an intelligent woman, there's no way those things hadn't occurred to her. Instead, she knowingly supported her husband's murderous plan.

I just don't get how someone's mind goes from "we need more babies" to "let's overthrow the government and live like it's the 16th century again".

Edited June 10, 2018 by chocolatine

[AnswersWanted]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, and right after that?  She was shut out of all decision making.  It shocked her.

Maybe she wanted all of this, but honestly, I can't really see it.  She obviously still wanted to have sex with her husband, she detests that impregnating ceremony, she doesn't like being in a uniform, she hates knitting, was thrilled to be writing again, and appreciated June's contributions with editing, she immediately went to find that formerly famous doctor who is now a Martha.

While she may have thought she'd be immune to a lot of this, I honestly don't think she really thought, in her wildest dreams, Gilead would become this, with only men having privileges, or cars, or music, or books.  For example, while she definitely wanted more women of child bearing age to focus on raising a family instead of having a career, I seriously doubt she thought that would be the end of every career for any woman.  While she may have wanted to be one of the Queen Bees?  I don't think she ever expected that she could no longer even have decent conversations with other women substance, she still thought she'd be writing books, and both sexes would read them. 

Honestly, I can't imagine she thought she'd have a handmaid in her house, or even that it would go so far as to have official handmaids.

 

 I don’t see why the main plans for what was to come after the initial takeover could not or would not have been discussed and hashed out before the attacks.

There could easily have been a blueprint of what Gilead was meant to be before they ever took action and took over the government.

If Serena signed off on that which is very likely because she thought that she would get protection from the full scale and scope of the regime, I just see that being highly probable and not unlikely at all. 

Maybe it’s because I’ve known far too many women in my life that work against their own self interest if they believe that it would bring others outside of themselves into line.

To me a woman who is okay with people being murdered for her cause, that she could see them being enslaved in any way under a totalitarian system is capable of anything.

 And I guess the biggest part for me is if Serena truly did not see all of the horrors of Gilead, if all of them really did only come up once the men had claimed full control and she had no idea of the scope and the scale of what they have planned, how does she live with herself? 

 How much of a self-serving, heartless ego does it take to be able to watch your own handiwork turn into something so twisted and sick and terrible and yet not only does she live in the world she takes part in it readily.

It’s not just June that she helped to pin down on her marital bed to be raped by her husband, the way she treats Rita like something she stepped in whenever the mood suits her, the fact she ordered Nick and June to sleep together, not caring for the consequences especially for them, just so she could get a child out of it. 

 The way she decided to use a glimpse of Hannah against June, torturing her captive and her personal rape slave with the idea that if she continued to cause trouble that her daughter just might have to pay a price for it.

Or what about the smiling and clapping Serena that cheered on the sidelines as little girls were being married off to strange men, even taking the time to smugly comment to a devastated June about Nick’s appearance just to keep twisting the dagger in deeper, enjoying the fruits of her vengeful labor. 

 Perhaps Serena did not have a hand totally in creating the Gilead which she lives in now, but she still intends to benefit from it and she actively does so whenever she can. 

Whether she was a monster then she is certainly a monster now, at least to me, so I will agree to disagree.

[Umbelina]

22 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

I agree with this, but it's still chilling to me that Serena chose to align herself with the ultra-right wing to espouse her agenda. There was a myriad of positive changes she could have lobbied for to address the declining birthrate: financial/tax incentives for each child, state-subsidized daycare so women wouldn't have to choose between working and having children, environmental regulations and clean energy, more investment in reproductive research/medicine, the list goes on. We know that she's an intelligent woman, there's no way those things hadn't occurred to her. Instead, she knowingly supported her husband's murderous plan.

I just don't get how someone's mind goes from "we need more babies" to "let's overthrow the government and live like it's the 16th century again".

 

Maybe she did want those things though, and to advocate for them?  It's just hard to say since after the overthrow of what she considered a corrupt and destructive system, she was locked out of the planning.  The men appeared to use her perhaps naiveté, to convince the far right fanatics and possibly others that change needed happen.

After the nuclear meltdowns, the climate change issues that had devastated large parts of the USA, the over use of chemicals, drugs, pesticides, oil, coal, insecticides, and all the rest of the factors they felt were contributing to white infertility?  It's kind of easy to see how her idea of a cleaner, simpler life with a focus on family and clean living would appeal to many.

Did she think it would turn into this though?  I just really doubt it.  There was a reason we saw that door shut in her face.  They used her to destroy things and plant seeds, but they had no interest, none, in listening to her ideas about rebuilding a society, let alone about writing the new laws.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Umbelina

[Baltimore Betty]

I always thought it was strange that the Econo wives and husband can have sex but the Commanders and wives cannot (and have to resort to using the Handmaids) although they have so many more privileges than most.  What exactly was the mindset with that?

[GraceK]

18 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

 

 I don’t see why the main plans for what was to come after the initial takeover could not or would not have been discussed and hashed out before the attacks.

There could easily have been a blueprint of what Gilead was meant to be before they ever took action and took over the government.

If Serena signed off on that which is very likely because she thought that she would get protection from the full scale and scope of the regime, I just see that being highly probable and not unlikely at all. 

Maybe it’s because I’ve known far too many women in my life that work against their own self interest if they believe that it would bring others outside of themselves into line.

To me a woman who is okay with people being murdered for her cause, that she could see them being enslaved in any way under a totalitarian system is capable of anything.

 And I guess the biggest part for me is if Serena truly did not see all of the horrors of Gilead, if all of them really did only come up once the men had claimed full control and she had no idea of the scope and the scale of what they have planned, how does she live with herself? 

 How much of a self-serving, heartless ego does it take to be able to watch your own handiwork turn into something so twisted and sick and terrible and yet not only does she live in the world she takes part in it readily.

It’s not just June that she helped to pin down on her marital bed to be raped by her husband, the way she treats Rita like something she stepped in whenever the mood suits her, the fact she ordered Nick and June to sleep together, not caring for the consequences especially for them, just so she could get a child out of it. 

 The way she decided to use a glimpse of Hannah against June, torturing her captive and her personal rape slave with the idea that if she continued to cause trouble that her daughter just might have to pay a price for it.

Or what about the smiling and clapping Serena that cheered on the sidelines as little girls were being married off to strange men, even taking the time to smugly comment to a devastated June about Nick’s appearance just to keep twisting the dagger in deeper, enjoying the fruits of her vengeful labor. 

 Perhaps Serena did not have a hand totally in creating the Gilead which she lives in now, but she still intends to benefit from it and she actively does so whenever she can. 

Whether she was a monster then she is certainly a monster now, at least to me, so I will agree to disagree.

Omg thank you. I don’t care how many beatings Serena is getting NOW. The fact that she is still sees absolutely nothing wrong with babies being ripped from the wombs of their mothers and given to others and women being used as incubators for the privileged is enough for me. She knew after she was shot she wasn’t having any of her own babies. She called the people responsible terrorists. So don’t try to tell me that she went into Gilead without some idea of what getting  her hands on a baby of her own would entail. She knew there would be bloodshed, and that there would be subjugation of women. She thought it would be worth it if it meant she would have a baby and a “better” world. Do I think she thought  it would be this bad? No. Just because we have seen glimmers of her being a human being for two episodes doesn’t erase a full season of an half and a backstory. She’s still a monster. She’s just finally starting to crack . Maybe, just maybe we will see her change but I’m not willing to whitewash or pretend she’s anything but what she is.

[AnswersWanted]

11 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

I always thought it was strange that the Econo wives and husband can have sex but the Commanders and wives cannot (and have to resort to using the Handmaids) although they have so many more privileges than most.  What exactly was the mindset with that?

 

Since the wives are all considered infertile, because men “can’t be”, they claim that it would be a waste for a Commander to have sex with his wife. 

The idea is that they can just save up their man juice as it were to have sex during the ritual with the handmaid, therefore making it more likely for her to then get pregnant.

 That goes along with their whole proclamation of sex is only to be used to potentially create a pregnancy, it is not meant for enjoyment or pleasure. 

Apparently Econo families are people who might be blessed by god, supposedly, and still manage to get pregnant and the leaders of Gilead would not mind if those type of people reproduce.

In fact they actually need them to or else the society is going to die out before it ever really gets started. 

So they have no regulations on sex outside of it being for procreation purposes only also. How they regulate that? Who knows. 

Although if you’re living in Gilead I would imagine getting in the mood is not exactly easy anyway.

 I remember the scene last season where Fred and Serena have sex in who knows how long, and they were quoting scripture...

To say Serena and her group are a screwy bunch whose decisions and choices and ideas of living are certifiable at best is just scratching the top of the surface.

Edited June 10, 2018 by AnswersWanted

[BradandJanet]

Serena helped design and implement a religious cult. Cults are about some people having power and control over other people. It may not have turned out the way Serena wanted, but that's what happens when power is unleashed. I don't feel sorry for her. She reaped what she sowed. 

[Umbelina]

I think it's highly relevant.

"Ripping babies out of mother's hands was specifically brought up, as was "how in the hell did THEY let this happen?"

It's happening right now.

That's what is so difficult about this show for me, not what's on the screen, but how very very closely our current society is doing many of the same things.

I also think they may have had environmentalist support in the beginning, God knows we are destroying our land, or climate, our water, and our air.  Cleaning that up may appeal to more than just fundamentalists bent on "taking us back to the 1900s."

This is how things like Gilead happen, people let atrocities go, or are so overwhelmed on so many fronts, they fail to act, fail to fight, fail to leave until it's just too late.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Umbelina

[AnswersWanted]

I recall the scene when Serena went over the act of sex with Eden and even tried to explain to her that it can be a pleasurable experience, even though that is technically against the purpose of it under Gilead law.

So many stupid, pointless laws, so little time to rag on them all. 

To me Serena seemed quite jealous of the idea that little baby bride Eden, naive and virginal, could go unto Nick as his wife and have that connection on a regular basis, at least until she gets pregnant, that Serena herself no longer is allowed.

 I chuckled, heh. 

 

27 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Omg thank you. I don’t care how many beatings Serena is getting NOW. The fact that she is still sees absolutely nothing wrong with babies being ripped from the wombs of their mothers and given to others and women being used as incubators for the privileged is enough for me. She knew after she was shot she wasn’t having any of her own babies. She called the people responsible terrorists. So don’t try to tell me that she went into Gilead without some idea of what getting  her hands on a baby of her own would entail. She knew there would be bloodshed, and that there would be subjugation of women. She thought it would be worth it if it meant she would have a baby and a “better” world. Do I think she thought  it would be this bad? No. Just because we have seen glimmers of her being a human being for two episodes doesn’t erase a full season of an half and a backstory. She’s still a monster. She’s just finally starting to crack . Maybe, just maybe we will see her change but I’m not willing to whitewash or pretend she’s anything but what she is.

 

 I totally agree. 

To me Serena obviously saw that it would be worth countless numbers of dead bodies and destroyed families and rights revoked for Gilead to take off.

Having the door shut in her face after she helped build the foundation does not matter at all to me, she was still a builder who did her part, the house that was finally built is still of her personal effort and doing. 

We can debate all day about what exactly she knew or when she knew it or how bad she thought it was going to be, but just in general she has been shown taking advantage of the system, of the people who never agreed to be or wanted to be apart of it.

She still demands her blood baby at every turn, that’s for damn sure, as you said. 

Maybe she didn’t care enough to think about how that would have to happen before, maybe they were details to be flushed out in the future or worked out later, but she certainly is still more than ready to open her arms to a little infant, or else she would not spend her time making sure the baby’s room for the stolen child she intends to take looks so very perfect.

The fact is that she was one of Gilead’s originators, that she wrote a best seller and gave speeches and drew support to the cause, female support especially. 

As far as I’m concerned it’s no different than setting an arson fire by yourself or striking the match for someone else to start the blaze, or just buying the matches at the store knowing full well what they will be used for.

If you have an active role in the act then you have equal responsibility for the outcome. 

Aiding and abetting, that’s all it is to me. 

[Umbelina]

I think the show may reveal even more about Serena, and I'm looking forward to it.

It honestly makes no sense that she was involved in the creation of a world she detests, I think that door closing in her face told us quite a bit.  I'm certainly not saying she's blameless for what Gilead became.  I am saying I can't, in any way, imagine that she wanted Gilead as is.  No sex, no entertainment, no books, no mental stimulation at all, not even conversation, which is also prescribed "Blessed Day" instead of "Did you see that movie about ... do you think that could really happen?" or talking about books, or ideas, or the hell of living through that "Ceremony" once a month.  She couldn't have thought the women would all be in uniforms all the time, that there would be no driving, no swimming, no tennis, nothing at all to do but knit scarves.

She obviously knows that the fertility issue isn't just women's problem, she realized Fred was shooting blanks, not that she's even allowed to suggest that now, and I seriously doubt she expected that either. 

[nodorothyparker]

Serena's certainly not an innocent in this, but it's not just a black and white thing of just being EVIL either.  We do know that from things like the movie theater flashback where her response to learning that the government is about to be violently overthrown was an approving "Praise be."  She agrees at least with the premise of replacing the U.S. government with the theocratic horror that will be Gilead if not the eventual execution.  But there's another scene in A Woman's Place that I think is more telling about what her role in all this was.  After not yet Commander Fred comes out to tell her that the movement won't allow her to speak and fusses over the unfairness of it all like she's a disappointed child before sending her home like a good girl, there's another conversation.  Fred dismissively tells another leader that Serena is frustrated because "she's been involved in this from the very beginning."  This is met by a speech about how this is the male leaders' (and I think by extension men's in general) fault because they allowed women more than they could handle in pursuing education, leadership, etc., to the point that "we let them forget their real purpose.  We won't let that happen again." 

So while Serena appears to have been advocating pretty hard for a return to traditional values and placing reproduction above all else because she truly believed in those things, which yes, certainly makes her complicit, the male leaders of the movement took those ideas and ran with them while dumping her when they didn't need her to put a pretty public face on it anymore.  It's a pattern that has played out over and over and over again in politics and religion for as long as women have even been allowed to have a voice in the game.  Select women are held up to espouse ideas that are actually pretty terrible for women to get other women on board while men point to them as some kind of evidence of "See, we're not misogynists.  Good women want this.  We're helping them."  Now that the walls have effectively closed in on the trap she herself had a hand in creating, Serena seems to be recognizing this pattern too, as well as how thoroughly she got used and played by the male leadership.

[GraceK]

9 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think the show may reveal even more about Serena, and I'm looking forward to it.

It honestly makes no sense that she was involved in the creation of a world she detests, I think that door closing in her face told us quite a bit.  I'm certainly not saying she's blameless for what Gilead became.  I am saying I can't, in any way, imagine that she wanted Gilead as is.  No sex, no entertainment, no books, no mental stimulation at all, not even conversation, which is also prescribed "Blessed Day" instead of "Did you see that movie about ... do you think that could really happen?" or talking about books, or ideas, or the hell of living through that "Ceremony" once a month.  She couldn't have thought the women would all be in uniforms all the time, that there would be no driving, no swimming, no tennis, nothing at all to do but knit scarves.

She obviously knows that the fertility issue isn't just women's problem, she realized Fred was shooting blanks, not that she's even allowed to suggest that now, and I seriously doubt she expected that either. 

I agree with you . Didn’t you link that very in depth article where Yvonne has an interview to basically that effect? I absolutely agree that she didn’t really see the magnitude of what a Gilead would be.

My point has been that just because she didnt sign on to knitting all day and not being able to read, doesn’t excuse her actions. She has been party to horrific things and has taken full advantage of what this society has become. And she still was completely on board with murder and the over throw of a society to push HER agenda. Just because the train derailed out her control doesn’t mean she isn’t responsible for sabotaging the tracks.

[Umbelina]

Sometimes overthrowing a government is needed, and it certainly has happened before and will happen again.  It sounds like things were out of control in Gilead, and I do understand why they blamed ecological disasters and the very low fertility rates on choices made by the previous system. 

I agree, and I never said she was blameless.  I simply don't think that her vision was in any way what Gilead has become.

[AnswersWanted]

4 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Serena's certainly not an innocent in this, but it's not just a black and white thing of just being EVIL either.

 

 I don’t believe black and white exists in the real world, and Serena is a reflection of realistic people, war criminals have existed and probably will exist for as long as humanity is in existence. 

  Serena obviously believed that things needed to change so she signed off on a plan that would enforce it, she started something built on dead bodies and broken families and stolen rights for each and every person that disagreed with her or with those like her. 

 I have mentioned numerous times that I believe Serena got duped, that much is clear, she trusted men to take away the rights of women and yet still bother afterwards to respect them and honor them all at the same time.

I don’t know how you can possibly be that stupid and naïve as a grown woman but unfortunately I see far too many examples of that in my current reality to not know it happens. 

 Serena absolutely played herself and in the process she happened to take countless numbers of other women down with her, but even so with that being true, I still see a woman who acts as if the system can still work for her. 

Where is a woman trying to make some kind of amends when she can, where she can, because she could be, we’ve seen it happen. 

 In season one Emily had a wife that bothered to fake a headache just to give her a break one night, a short reprieve.

It was a tiny gesture of kindness, a slight bit of compassion, taking into account Emily’s feelings for once about being raped. 

What has stopped Serena from doing the same or similarly? 

Why does she need to crack a slap across Rita’s face when she gets frustrated?

Why is it okay that she was so desperate for a blood baby that she forced her driver under her orders to rape her handmaid just because she was pretty sure that was the only way she was going to get a kid?

If she was such a true believer, why wouldn’t she put her trust in the lord and leave things alone? 

No, she took active steps to make sure that every possible chance for pregnancy was taken, if anything was going to happen it was that June would get pregnant under her roof because that’s how badly she wants what she wants, a selfish desire that could cost not just her own life but the lives of those who have no choice under her, Nick and June. 

Is it any better if she didn’t create this world but still wants to benefit and prosper from it?

And she does not benefit and prosper in spite of the Gilead system and all the innocent victims it keeps subjugating and enslaved and trapped against their will, but directly because of it. 

She has no shame and she shows little to no guilt about it.

 Even if everything that came before Gilead is removed, Serena had nothing to do with the structure of the society, she was absolutely cut out of all discussions and talks and figuring out the laws and the rules and the regulations for everybody, herself included, even if that is true then how can a woman stand in front of a handmaid that has been mutilated and scarred and she snaps her fingers that this young lady can’t be a part of a public dinner because it wouldn’t be a good look on the leaders of Gilead. 

Not even Aunt Lydia thought those girls would be or should be excluded, she was, after all, the one who decided their punishments.

 But it was Serena and Serena alone who labeled those women, ones who obviously had suffered worse than the others, as basically defective models that she did not want put on display because it would ruin the idea of perfect handmaids, intact handmaids, wanting to offer up this illusion that her society does not need to chop off limbs or blind girls just to keep them in line. 

 For me the biggest problem with Serena is Serena. 

 I don’t think that she is some wicked witch of the west type villain in a storybook, I just think she’s a selfish, cruel, sociopath, and those definitely do exist in the real world. 

Edited June 11, 2018 by AnswersWanted

[Cranberry]

Debate is fine here, but please refrain from personally insulting your fellow posters or ascribing motivations to them. Keep your comments about the show. If you can't manage this, block the people you disagree with so you won't be tempted to engage.

[AllyB]

On 6/10/2018 at 11:22 PM, GraceK said:

The fact that she is still sees absolutely nothing wrong with babies being ripped from the wombs of their mothers and given to others and women being used as incubators for the privileged is enough for me. She knew after she was shot she wasn’t having any of her own babies. She called the people responsible terrorists. So don’t try to tell me that she went into Gilead without some idea of what getting  her hands on a baby of her own would entail. She knew there would be bloodshed, and that there would be subjugation of women. She thought it would be worth it if it meant she would have a baby and a “better” world.

Is that all that different from all of the couples in the last century who couldn't have their own biological children and adopted children who's biological mothers were given no choice about whether or not to keep their babies. Women who were essentially incarcerated in religious run "homes" for the crime of having a crises pregnancy and had their children taken from them, often without their knowledge. Even now despite the fact that it is becoming evident that children currently adopted from abroad are often kidnapped and trafficked against the will of their biological family. We still have some adoptive parents who will turn a blind eye or refuse communication with a biological family who have managed to track down their stolen child. Even in cases where mothers really have put their child up for adoption it is usually due to poverty and lack of support rather than a true choice and not something that wealthier couples should take advantage of. There will always be people who's desire to have a family will trump the best interests of the child and it's mother. Gilead is in many ways a more honest version of real life because the biological mother is in their house and can't be ignored or imagined to be something she isn't.

(That's not to say adoption always means theft of a child or is not the genuine choice of the biological mother. It can be a really, really good thing for everyone involved in many situations. But far too often it isn't and not enough people are willing to address that if it means their own family desires won't be fulfilled.)

[AnswersWanted]

I agree that the system of adoption can be riddled with all sorts of shady and illegal behavior that can do far more harm than good, especially when a lot of money is involved.

 For me though the very system that is engaged so that a handmaid can get pregnant in the first place is where things just stand out to me as being far more evil and cruel and inexcusable than anything we have currently when it comes to the profitable “baby market” as it were. 

 The statistics for women who give up children conceived through an act of rape or sexual assault vary depending on location and culture and religion and a number of other factors. As most of them are victims who too often end up silenced or not believed one way or another or they decline to give such a reason for giving up the child, I am sure the true numbers are never really known or reported.

But in Gilead every single one of a child born of a handmaid anywhere, whatever the household situation or location, is a child conceived through the act of rape.

In no way did or does the biological mother have a choice when she is forced to have sexual intercourse with her commander or as in the case of June her commander or his significantly more fertile driver that her mistress forces her to sleep with just to make sure that she gets pregnant.

 These women cannot make any decisions for themselves, they can’t even decide to not get pregnant, and if they do manage to get pregnant then they still are not given a single right towards the baby in any regard or their own bodies, they are seen as walking wombs or living baby incubators. 

 As we’ve seen with June, Serena got to throw herself a lavish baby shower where all her friends came and gave Serena gifts and twittered and giggled all over the idea that she was  going to be a mother, while June, the battered and raped true mother of the child in question was sequestered to a corner to watch the goings on all the time hearing how the baby growing inside of her was soon going to belong to this woman, and June would end up removed from this child’s life without a second thought, never to see the baby again when the time came, decided by either Serena or Lydia or both. 

Serena also took June into the baby’s room, wanting to show off her handiwork of decorations and all the little odds and ends to the special space where she plans to keep the stolen child that under normal circumstances is June’s and would remain so. 

I assumed that it was Serena trying to pass it off as a way of thanking tune for her sacrifice? For her generosity? For her willingness to be her and the commander’s surrogate of sorts? 

The reality is that Serena Joy sat on her bed and pinned June down on it each and every time her husband unbuckled his pants and thrusted his penis into her without a single notion that there was an ounce of consent given or even needed from the woman on her back, being invaded and violated. 

 It actually makes me think about what happens when all these children eventually grow up and learn how they were conceived.

If Gilead, hopefully, does fall and these young teens or young adults have to come to grips with the reality that the only reason they are alive and walking the face of the earth is that their mothers, their true mothers, went through the most degrading and despicable and disgusting and deplorable practices imaginable. 

I truly think that is part of the legacy that Serena Joy will never be able to escape, or should be allowed to, and rightfully so.

[Umbelina]

Until I see evidence that Serena Joy suggested the Handmaid System in one of the books she wrote, or the speeches she gave?

There is more than reasonable doubt that she ever suggested, let alone wanted this system.  We have seen evidence that when it became time to make these decisions she was shut out of the conversation.  We have seen evidence that she detests most of the things happening in Gilead, including the forced rape, having a Handmaid in her home, not being able to read or write, and on and on.  She is miserable.

She MAY have indeed had this kind of Gilead in mind, but so far, there is no proof of that.

[greekmom]

54 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

I agree that the system of adoption can be riddled with all sorts of shady and illegal behavior that can do far more harm than good, especially when a lot of money is involved.

 For me though the very system that is engaged so that a handmaid can get pregnant in the first place is where things just stand out to me as being far more evil and cruel and inexcusable than anything we have currently when it comes to the profitable “baby market” as it were. 

 The statistics for women who give up children conceived through an act of rape or sexual assault vary depending on location and culture and religion and a number of other factors. As most of them are victims who too often end up silenced or not believed one way or another or they decline to give such a reason for giving up the child, I am sure the true numbers are never really known or reported.

But in Gilead every single one of a child born of a handmaid anywhere, whatever the household situation or location, is a child conceived through the act of rape.

In no way did or does the biological mother have a choice when she is forced to have sexual intercourse with her commander or as in the case of June her commander or his significantly more fertile driver that her mistress forces her to sleep with just to make sure that she gets pregnant.

 These women cannot make any decisions for themselves, they can’t even decide to not get pregnant, and if they do manage to get pregnant then they still are not given a single right towards the baby in any regard or their own bodies, they are seen as walking wombs or living baby incubators. 

 As we’ve seen with June, Serena got to throw herself a lavish baby shower where all her friends came and gave Serena gifts and twittered and giggled all over the idea that she was  going to be a mother, while June, the battered and raped true mother of the child in question was sequestered to a corner to watch the goings on all the time hearing how the baby growing inside of her was soon going to belong to this woman, and June would end up removed from this child’s life without a second thought, never to see the baby again when the time came, decided by either Serena or Lydia or both. 

Serena also took June into the baby’s room, wanting to show off her handiwork of decorations and all the little odds and ends to the special space where she plans to keep the stolen child that under normal circumstances is June’s and would remain so. 

I assumed that it was Serena trying to pass it off as a way of thanking tune for her sacrifice? For her generosity? For her willingness to be her and the commander’s surrogate of sorts? 

The reality is that Serena Joy sat on her bed and pinned June down on it each and every time her husband unbuckled his pants and thrusted his penis into her without a single notion that there was an ounce of consent given or even needed from the woman on her back, being invaded and violated. 

 It actually makes me think about what happens when all these children eventually grow up and learn how they were conceived.

If Gilead, hopefully, does fall and these young teens or young adults have to come to grips with the reality that the only reason they are alive and walking the face of the earth is that their mothers, their true mothers, went through the most degrading and despicable and disgusting and deplorable practices imaginable. 

I truly think that is part of the legacy that Serena Joy will never be able to escape, or should be allowed to, and rightfully so.

 

15 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Until I see evidence that Serena Joy suggested the Handmaid System in one of the books she wrote, or the speeches she gave?

There is more than reasonable doubt that she ever suggested, let alone wanted this system.  We have seen evidence that when it became time to make these decisions she was shut out of the conversation.  We have seen evidence that she detests most of the things happening in Gilead, including the forced rape, having a Handmaid in her home, not being able to read or write, and on and on.  She is miserable.

She MAY have indeed had this kind of Gilead in mind, but so far, there is no proof of that.

In season 1 there was the one small scene with a bunch of Commanders, including Waterford that were in the back of the car trying to find a way to make the Handmaid system "acceptable" to the wives.   I think most of them were just glad they were not targeted for any reason and just went with the flow.

But have we seen any wife that is happy?  Certainly not SJ.  Marissa Tomaei's character was unhappy that she cheated.  Naomi Putman wasn't happy with the baby, Warren also cheated and had his hand removed.  Emily's second post - the wife wasn't happy and made excuses to not have the ceremony.  

Who is happy in Gilead? Commanders certainly are not or a place like Jezebels wouldn't exist. Aunts?  Econopeople? 

These people have created a big mess and do not want to admit they were wrong. 

[AnswersWanted]

I agree, they are all a pitiful, miserable bunch of sickos. 

They all got caught up in their own grandiose ideas, this group of average at best human beings truly believed that they could emulate a god, that they could take control and somehow elevate themselves to rule an entire society as a cohesive whole. 

  Yet as we continue to see time and time again, these idiots had no idea what they were getting into. 

 But then again, even as they have settled into these difficult lives that they set up for themselves, none of them show a side of themselves, to me, that makes them likable. 

In the case of Serena, for myself I do not pity her nor do I understand the position of a woman who, when confronted with a system that perhaps she doesn’t agree with and that she did not design herself, yet her way of handling it is to take an already heavily raped victim and just rape her more.

And not just rape her on her own time for her own selfish reasons, but also to do it in secret and on the side, and for a added bonus she went about involving her driver in the mess because technically he can’t legally say no to her or resist her,

And all of that just so she could get a baby, a trophy really. 

 If Serena is such a devout woman, where is her true conviction?

Why won’t she join MayDay? 

Why didn’t she help create that movement the same way she did Gilead’s?

She’s a wife, she’s one of the highest ranking people in the society for what it’s worth, especially for females, so why won’t she use that little bit of privilege to actually make a difference for the others and to try and do what’s right now?

Why won’t this woman actively take a stand against everything that’s going on and yes risk her life if need be if it could make a difference?

 It was so much easier for her to play the part of the holy woman when she was on stage with protected guards and she could shout her speeches and have her face plastered all over modern media.

But now that she’s in the middle of it, and she sees the true pain and suffering all around her, she has no conscience to stand up against it in any way. 

 To me Serena is not just complicit, she is a coward. 

[mamadrama]

5 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

I agree, they are all a pitiful, miserable bunch of sickos. 

They all got caught up in their own grandiose ideas, this group of average at best human beings truly believed that they could emulate a god, that they could take control and somehow elevate themselves to rule an entire society as a cohesive whole. 

  Yet as we continue to see time and time again, these idiots had no idea what they were getting into. 

 But then again, even as they have settled into these difficult lives that they set up for themselves, none of them show a side of themselves, to me, that makes them likable. 

In the case of Serena, for myself I do not pity her nor do I understand the position of a woman who, when confronted with a system that perhaps she doesn’t agree with and that she did not design herself, yet her way of handling it is to take an already heavily raped victim and just rape her more.

And not just rape her on her own time for her own selfish reasons, but also to do it in secret and on the side, and for a added bonus she went about involving her driver in the mess because technically he can’t legally say no to her or resist her,

And all of that just so she could get a baby, a trophy really. 

 If Serena is such a devout woman, where is her true conviction?

Why won’t she join MayDay? 

Why didn’t she help create that movement the same way she did Gilead’s?

She’s a wife, she’s one of the highest ranking people in the society for what it’s worth, especially for females, so why won’t she use that little bit of privilege to actually make a difference for the others and to try and do what’s right now?

Why won’t this woman actively take a stand against everything that’s going on and yes risk her life if need be if it could make a difference?

 It was so much easier for her to play the part of the holy woman when she was on stage with protected guards and she could shout her speeches and have her face plastered all over modern media.

But now that she’s in the middle of it, and she sees the true pain and suffering all around her, she has no conscience to stand up against it in any way. 

 To me Serena is not just complicit, she is a coward. 

To be fair, she may very well end up doing some of those things. We have no idea where the writers are going with her storyline. They're just not starting to show her crack. 

[AnswersWanted]

4 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

To be fair, she may very well end up doing some of those things. We have no idea where the writers are going with her storyline. They're just not starting to show her crack. 

 

For me it’s just too little too late. Finally doing the right thing, maybe, does nothing about all the times she didn’t and openly refused to, IMO, ymmv. 

[mamadrama]

5 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

 

For me it’s just too little too late. Finally doing the right thing, maybe, does nothing about all the times she didn’t and openly refused to, IMO, ymmv. 

Eh, I wouldn't care. It's a good show and Yvonne a great actress. I'd be entertained either way. 

[AnswersWanted]

26 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

Eh, I wouldn't care. It's a good show and Yvonne a great actress. I'd be entertained either way. 

 

I am not invested nearly enough in her character to want her saved for any reason. 

I don't care to watch a long, drawn out redemption arc just for her sake. 

If they drag her out back to stone one day, great. 

The way the book handled her was fine and if the show follows suit that's fine too. 

The actress doesn't blow me over either. She's not the best but not the worst, imo. 

Frankly I feel both she and Elizabeth weren't the best choices for the show's female front runners. 

I personally just want more Emily and Moira. 

[GraceK]

8 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

If they drag her out back to stone one day, great. 

This made me laugh ????

[AnswersWanted]

2 minutes ago, GraceK said:

This made me laugh ????

 

:D, I had to think of a happy little thought to stick in there somewhere. 

[lucindabelle]

I guess there are the Pro and Anti Serena factions. I'm in the Pro: I don't handwave the things she did, BUT I also think she could be massively important in ending Gilead, even if it's out of self-interest.

Similarly, there were some Nazis who did subversive and kind things, and while they were still Nazis, those things mattered, and kept some people alive, like this doctor. Or this man, who prevented wholesale slaughter because he tipped off Danish officials.

I'm not a purist. Any good deed she does is a good deed, and better late than never. There's a Jewish legend of a man walking along a beach with a lot of stranded starfish. He throws one back in the sea. Another man watching says, "It won't make any difference." 

He answers, "It will make a difference to that one."

No, I don't believe in complete absolution (Like Darth Vader bopping along with the Ewoks all happy when you exploded Alderaan you don't get a pass)-- but I'm here for the Serena Joy Underground Railroad and I HOPE that's where the show is going.

Among other things, it will be INTERESTING. I haven't seen that done before.