S05.E12: The World Council of Churches

[tennisgurl]

16 hours ago, jjj said:

And I think it was very good that Oleg got to hear that expression of affection and loyalty.   

I really liked that too. I always felt like Oleg was resentful of his father and felt like his father didn't really care about him on a personal level, but here we can see that he really does love Oleg not just as his son, but as a person who he sees as a good man worthy of respect. It was also the first time I really felt like Oleg really connected with his dad as well, beyond just respecting him as a parent and appreciating what his power has given him. It makes me think that Oleg will just quickly accept prison to keep his parents from getting dragged into this.

I'm pretty sure that Oleg will end the season arrested and facing prison time, and he's resigned himself to it, considering he asked his mom this episode how she survived when she was imprisoned. It feels like they both know what's up, even if they don't straight up say it. I also enjoyed the subtext of her saying that even after Oleg joined the KBG, she was still bitter towards them. I don't think she resented Oleg at all for joining, because it gave him opportunities and safety that she never had, but I think she still hated that her son has to answer to the assholes to imprisoned her, and now they will still take her son away from her anyway, so soon after losing her other son.

I know that it doesn't really connect to the main plot with P & E, but I'm totally invested in the story of Oleg and his family, and I find it to be the most interesting part of the season. And I don't think its just my massive crush on Oleg...or at least not just that.

[RedHawk]

15 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

I guess people could feel that way if they hadn't lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis.

23 minutes ago, scrb said:

Many people who lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis did not fear the Soviet Union's nuclear aggression in the early '80s. There's more discussion of this in the Politics of the '80s thread.

Edited May 25, 2017 by RedHawk

[RedHawk]

I'm enjoying Oleg's story also. I wonder if his father now feels he made a big mistake in urging Oleg to return to Moscow. The main reason was that Oleg's mother was so depressed about her other son's death, and Ivan thought it would help if Oleg were near. Maybe there was some concern that Oleg would be seduced by the West (and that was happening somewhat). Ivan had a parent's usual thoughts of Oleg finding a good woman and settling down, having children... he didn't think about how screwed up things are there, how his son would fit in with that system, and he had no idea what Oleg was involved in back in the U.S. What a mess.

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Was [Tuan] so sure of himself or did he think taking the initiative like that would lead to accolades?

I'd say both.

57 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

I felt that [Pastor Tim] was as relieved to get out of [Paige's] (and her parents') orbit as she was that he's moving far away.

I can't blame him for that. He genuinely likes Paige and has real concerns about her, and I think he has a grudging respect (not sure if that's the right word, but it's the closest I can think of) for Philip and Elizabeth. Yet knowing what he does about them has to be a big burden on him. Getting away from it is a relief for everyone.

Edited May 25, 2017 by dubbel zout
pronoun clarity

[scrb]

18 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

The ones who were deported in 2010 almost got a ticker tape parade. They were heroes.

Right but in 1985, with poor food production and failing economy?

[RedHawk]

9 minutes ago, scrb said:

Right but in 1985, with poor food production and failing economy?

Well, we see how the Burovs live. They don't seem to suffer any shortages, and have a nice home. P&E would not have a Minister's status but might be near the top of the ladder as far as housing and access to goods. I assume they'd have jobs training other officers or doing sensitive work that used their extensive knowledge of the U.S.

It would help if we saw Gabriel's home and lifestyle.

Edited May 25, 2017 by RedHawk

[stagmania]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I feel like with Philip this is especially pronounced because of where the character is now - at least I hope it's intentional. It seems like the character needs to hit a place like Paige did this week where she was hitting that bag. He's just reacting to everything with no confidence about most bigger picture things. He's clear on some smaller things-like he knew he wanted to marry Elizabeth and now he knows he wants to save Pasha. But it honestly seems like with everything else his reactions are muted because he's depressed and lost. He'll tell Paige that she doesn't have to be who she was when she was a kid but he doesn't seem to see what that means for him. The last time he felt confident it turned out he'd murdered an innocent.

Yeah, this is the only explanation for his affect that really makes sense to me, but I'm still not really satisfied with how they're doing it. Perhaps if other characters noted the change in him, it would feel more deliberate. As it is, it almost feels like fanwanking to tell myself it's a choice to highlight his depression, as opposed to just a function of the overall drab feeling of the entire season.

[Umbelina]

Claudia and Gabe come and go to the USSR because they are not embedded illegal intelligence officers.  Philip and Elizabeth can't do that.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that everyone in the Soviet Union at that time had to have a job or they were considered parasites.  So using the words "retired" to describe Philip and Elizabeth once they return is misleading.  They would still have to work, famous heroes or not.  They'd probably work with spy craft or language training or explaining to other spies what the USA is really like, stuff like that., possibly simply propaganda though.

Gabe was a relative softy compared to Claudia.  He would have worked his butt off to get them out, to save them, he's got enough death on his conscience.  Claudia?  She's more mission oriented.  Phil and Liz represent a substantial investment, and under no circumstances are they easily replaced.  Paige and probably later Henry are definitely not easily replaced.  I don't believe her.  

I still think Gabe knew that Philip is in danger from Center, because of all his balking, and the trip to Germany against orders, and they have never trusted him since Elizabeth's reports on him anyway.  I really think Gabe knew a kill order might be coming, and just bailed.  Center tells Claudia to kill Philip because he's corrupting their prize patriotic zealot, Elizabeth, and endangering the entire second generation plan?  She won't hesitate, and they are all smart enough to know it has to look like some hated American did it.

Claudia, Tuan, and Elizabeth are very much alike.  In the podcast this week, the showrunners compared Tuan to Niles on Frazier.  They needed someone so neurotic that he would make Frazier seem normal by comparison.  In this case, they made Tuan such a task oriented fanatic specifically to make fanatic Elizabeth more palatable. 

Frankly, I've never seen much difference between Claudia, Tuan, and Elizabeth as far as towing the company line and doing whatever it takes to get the job done.  Claudia would kill Philip in a heartbeat if it kept Elizabeth and the kids in the game, and she may not even need that much of a reason.  She answers to Center.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Umbelina
y

[sistermagpie]

20 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Yeah, this is the only explanation for his affect that really makes sense to me, but I'm still not really satisfied with how they're doing it. Perhaps if other characters noted the change in him, it would feel more deliberate. As it is, it almost feels like fanwanking to tell myself it's a choice to highlight his depression, as opposed to just a function of the overall drab feeling of the entire season.

Yes, I admit at this point I'm worried. Maybe because it seems like there's times when it feels like they're leading somewhere but then they just drift away from it. It doesn't feel like there's much forward momentum. Like with his flashbacks it seems like maybe it did just lead to him finding out his father was a guard and...feeling bad about that. Even though he's not his father and doesn't even know what his father was like. It seemed to lead to the meeting with Gabriel but Paige was already knowing them--Henry's the one who's in Philip's position of literally thinking his father is an entirely different person.

Plus it's always a problem to say "it seems frustrating because the characters are frustrated" because no, you actually can write about frustrated people in a way that's compelling. This is meta-frustration.

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Claudia and Gabe come and go to the USSR because they are not embedded illegal intelligence officers.  Philip and Elizabeth can't do that.

 

Right--I just meant that I didn't think it was impossible for people to be Illegals and then go home and have a life there. 

[Umbelina]

Watch the season end with a cliff hanger of Claudia standing behind a sniper and giving the order to take Philip out.  Gun shot, and goes to black.  Or on a walky talky or phone or something.  Of course it would be more visual if Claudia herself had the gun and was aiming, but also more unrealistic, which actually fits with the writers, so yeah, Claudia with the gun.

[SunnyBeBe]

17 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Claudia and Gabe come and go to the USSR because they are not embedded illegal intelligence officers.  Philip and Elizabeth can't do that.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that everyone in the Soviet Union at that time had to have a job or they were considered parasites.  So using the words "retired" to describe Philip and Elizabeth once they return is misleading.  They would still have to work, famous heroes or not.  They'd probably work with spy craft or language training or explaining to other spies what the USA is really like, stuff like that., possibly simply propaganda though.

Gabe was a relative softy compared to Claudia.  He would have worked his butt off to get them out, to save them, he's got enough death on his conscience.  Claudia?  She's more mission oriented.  Phil and Liz represent a substantial investment, and under no circumstances are they easily replaced.  Paige and probably later Henry are definitely not easily replaced.  I don't believe her.  

I still think Gabe knew that Philip is in danger from Center, because of all his balking, and the trip to Germany against orders, and they have never trusted him since Elizabeth's reports on him anyway.  I really think Gabe knew a kill order might be coming, and just bailed.  Center tells Claudia to kill Philip because he's corrupting their prize patriotic zealot, Elizabeth, and endangering the entire second generation plan?  She won't hesitate, and they are all smart enough to know it has to look like some hated American did it.

Claudia, Tuan, and Elizabeth are very much alike.  In the podcast this week, the showrunners compared Tuan to Niles on Frazier.  They needed someone so neurotic that he would make Frazier seem normal by comparison.  In this case, they made Tuan such a task oriented fanatic specifically to make fanatic Elizabeth more palatable. 

Frankly, I've never seen much difference between Claudia, Tuan, and Elizabeth as far as towing the company line and doing whatever it takes to get the job done.  Claudia would kill Philip in a heartbeat if it kept Elizabeth and the kids in the game, and she may not even need that much of a reason.  She answers to Center.

I try to expect anything from The Center,  but, how would killing Philip help E and the kids?  Wouldn't that cause an investigation and focus on the family that might reveal some curious things?  A curious detective might stumble onto something that would make things sticky for E.  And if they arrange a car accident, it still could backfire.  How does that work for Social Security purposes.  The kids are entitled to payments if a parent dies, but, what happens when social security gets the second notice that Philip Jennings is dead?  (Maybe, with the first death, no notice was sent.)

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I try to expect anything from The Center,  but, how would killing Philip help E and the kids?  Wouldn't that cause an investigation and focus on the family that might reveal some curious things?  A curious detective might stumble onto something that would make things sticky for E.  And if they arrange a car accident, it still could backfire.  How does that work for Social Security purposes.  The kids are entitled to payments if a parent dies, but, what happens when social security gets the second notice that Philip Jennings is dead?  (Maybe, with the first death, no notice was sent.)

It's the KGB.  They wouldn't be sloppy about it.  Ideally, it's my guess that they would want something that would inflame Elizabeth's hatred of the USA, but it's not really needed.

They aren't going to kill one of the leads of the show.

Would the KGB though?  I think so, yes.  Not just because they are KGB, I think the CIA or any spy agency might do the same.  It's more of a spy thing than a country thing.  If they feel someone is unreliable, or a danger to a great spy who IS reliable as well as their second generation plan?  I don't think they'd hesitate, and the show as well as history tells us that the USSR is in the death throws of dying right now, which makes people even more desperate.

I mean, if I were the head of a group of spies or part of the Central Committee, or "Center?"  I'd want Philip gone, he's corrupting Elizabeth, being a pain in the ass, rebelling against orders, and his own partner said he "liked the US too much."  If I were that same head or boss of spies, who would I pick?  Elizabeth and the kids as second generation, or Philip?  No question.  Liz, hands down.  I think Gabe knew it, I think Claudia knows it, Philip is a problem for them now.

[SunnyBeBe]

Maybe so, but, Philip still has a stellar record.  He's always gotten excellent results, even when it's him without E's help. He's saved her life and has the brute strength to kill silently with his bare hands.  I still think they would be foolish to kill him.  i suppose time will tell.   I just find it odd that they would place E in a sticky situation by causing P to get murdered or go missing. (I suppose they could send her another guy.  Or, after P's death she makes a play on STAN!  That would be funny!)Too much scrutiny by Law enforcement.  Plus Stan would really insist that no stone be left unturned. They may not figure out who killed him, but, they may find all other kinds of things about him that would put E in a tough spot.

 Does P have any friends except for Stan? I can't recall any.  Oh, except for Pastor Tim. lol

Edited May 25, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[RedHawk]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

Yeah, this is the only explanation for his affect that really makes sense to me, but I'm still not really satisfied with how they're doing it. Perhaps if other characters noted the change in him, it would feel more deliberate. As it is, it almost feels like fanwanking to tell myself it's a choice to highlight his depression, as opposed to just a function of the overall drab feeling of the entire season.

Yeah, Stan is all over Paige's droopy demeanor, but he hasn't noticed Philip has lost his zip? Maybe he's too wrapped up in Renee and they aren't spending as much time together playing racquetball or chatting.

[SunnyBeBe]

Well, at some point P was doing well.    Recall that Stan commented on how much P's energy had increased after a racket ball game in the gym.  P agreed and said that he was feeling better, getting more sleep.  I think this was after he and E had some down time. 

Edited May 25, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[Umbelina]

10 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Well, at some point P was doing well.    Recall that Stan commented on how much P's energy had increased after a racket ball game in the gym.  P agreed and said that he was feeling better, getting more sleep.  I think this was after he and E had some down time. 

6 months off I think, maybe more.  All he had to do was change the Kimmie tapes.

[Clanstarling]

On 5/24/2017 at 6:52 AM, Ina123 said:

I've been mulling last night's episode over in my head. I think the fact that Pasha is so unhappy that he was easily led to at least try to commit suicide, will shake P and E to the core with fear of how unhappy Henry will be in Russia. I can see the thought running thru their minds that this could be their family in Russia. 

Good observation. I agree that it's  hitting a little close to home.

On 5/24/2017 at 7:49 AM, Chaos Theory said:

My guess is Tuan isn't seeing the bigger picture in large part because he is young and also because he wants to impress P&E so he comes up with this ambitious plan.  A plan that doesn't figure in two things.  1.  How people react to a child's suicide attempt. 2.  P&E have actually gone out of their way to avoid killing their marks when possible.

I think this is right on, and add to it the fact that he survived growing up in a war zone, and saw his family killed (if that story is true), makes it unlikely that he's developed much empathy at this point. He seems to see emotion as weakness - at least when it comes to others. I'm not sure what to think about the whole plot with him going to different towns to call his foster brother.

On 5/24/2017 at 10:28 AM, GussieK said:

I've seen a number of posts about hanging, and I'm surprised.  That did not cross my mind at all.  I figured it was the punching bag. 

My first take was an odd one. I thought she was going to experiment with how much weight it takes to hang someone - but not herself. More like a P&E lesson in murder. lol

On 5/24/2017 at 11:59 AM, sistermagpie said:

Yes, that's totally a thing I think they've somewhat established with Henry that isn't coming across imo. (Maybe I'm reading him wrong, of course.) People talk about how Henry is "surprising" his parents as proof that they've so neglected him that he's a stranger, but the show's explicitly stated that this is Henry being very different than he's been in the past. It seems like the focus of it, in fact, is Chris. Chris's dad went to this school. Chris is going to the school. Chris is there making dinner with him and assuring him he'll get into the school. Chris's dad wrote the letter. The first time Henry talked about Chris with Stan he explicitly said she was a girl he wanted to go out with and the family is still questioning whether she's his actual girlfriend now. (Paige's answer--she's sure something.) Maybe he hasn't been able to make it happen yet.

I don't mean to imply that Henry's doing some longterm spy operation of his own and lying, but yeah I think he's a kid caught up in trying out being somebody new based on exotic people he's met

When you lay it out like that, to me it suggests someone's actively recruiting Henry. Not that you meant it that way. But it doesn't seem so coincidental that everything hinges on Chris and her family - pretty much everything relating to that school comes from their active encouragement. Makes me think maybe the Centre is going after him in a more subtle fashion, as someone else said, like getting the job for Pastor Tim.

On 5/24/2017 at 1:20 PM, sistermagpie said:

It seems like she'd be very smart to stay quiet. If she admits she told her boyfriend information he shouldn't have known, that probably wouldn't be good, right? But she might have suggested that as her boyfriend he may have ferreted out info or something?

Tatiana's a very smart woman, who is the Residentura in DC, and was going to get an assignment of her own. I don't think she's going to crack any time soon, or admit that Olaf knew anything, even in a tangential way.

20 hours ago, shura said:

Now, why Tuan thinks that P&E have exhausted all other possible options, I have no idea, he may be absolutely and terribly wrong there, but the rest of the plan computes.

The first option I thought of was taking out Pasha's father - you know, to get rid of the road block. It just depends on what's more important to the Centre - the father's minimal input into agriculture, or the mother's affair with the CIA guy. Seems like compromising a CIA guy would be more important.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Clanstarling

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

When you lay it out like that, to me it suggests someone's actively recruiting Henry. Not that you meant it that way. But it doesn't seem so coincidental that everything hinges on Chris and her family - pretty much everything relating to that school comes from their active encouragement. Makes me think maybe the Centre is going after him in a more subtle fashion, as someone else said, like getting the job for Pastor Tim.

Or it could be just that her family is like that. Dad went to the school, she's been brought up to think that's the best school to go to (and she's coming up to the age when she starts to go there), Henry likes Chris and Chris loves her dad so her dad seems cool to him. He's getting a view into a family that seems to have a clear tradition and pov on life. His family doesn't really have that so it's exotic for him. Plus he maybe quickly saw that this is the way to make Chris like him, since it's not repulsive to him. 

The show does seem to often like to point out how ordinary people are like spies. Chris could easily just have some dad who went to prep school and then an ivy league school and was really into it. The fact that Chris seems to not actually have become his girlfriend maybe also makes it almost seem as if she's a honeytrap. (Again, not that I think she is that, but it's easy to see echoes in it given all the honeytraps we see on the show. )

[millennium]

Another tedious episode.   Between the uninspired writing and Paige's presence casting a pall over all creation, I had a hard time staying awake.

I think it would be nice to be friends with undercover Elizabeth.   She seems like a lot of fun when she's grooming potential victims.   Where does that come from?  She's so dour otherwise.   On the other hand, default Elizabeth is far more attractive than undercover Elizabeth.   It's a shame default Elizabeth can't have undercover Elizabeth's bubbly personality.   Still, I wouldn't throw default Elizabeth out of bed, even if she did kill me afterwards.

Edited May 25, 2017 by millennium

[PamelaMaeSnap]

On May 24, 2017 at 1:43 PM, sistermagpie said:

It seems like so many people make this assumption and why would they ever decide on this? First, Paige has as little interest in moving to the USSR as Henry does. Second, why would Elizabeth retire while Philip stayed in the game? It's like it's assumed that Philip and Henry are the American ones when actually it's Paige and Henry who are the American ones.

I don't think that Philip plans on "staying in the game." Quite the opposite. I think he just wants to ... well, not sure if "defect" is the right word here, but stay in America, be an American, be OUT of the game. I think Elizabeth wants to "stay in the game" but in another form closer to home. And I would not be so sure Paige wouldn't be interested in going to the USSR ... she seems pretty anti-America based on what she's being fed by E&P ... it's Gabriel (and company) who don't WANT Paige in the game versus what she wants. 

[kokapetl]

5 hours ago, Ina123 said:

I guess people could feel that way if they hadn't lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis.

The Cuban Missile Crisis that everyone lived through? How many missiles did Cuba or the Soviet Union launch at the United States in that conflict?

[PamelaMaeSnap]

20 hours ago, Bretton said:

Okay, this comment brought me some genuine humor. You "have no doubt" even though you know you "rarely predict these things correctly"? Shouldn't your second thought give you "second thoughts" about your first thought? :)

LMAO ... too much for my tiny mind. But yes, I was sort of being facetious ... my third thought makes me think my second thought might have been wrong so I go back to my first thought ... and then I just say f&%k it and drink a glass of wine and wait until the next episode. 

[Anela]

I'm not loving Paige adjusting to the idea of being a spy. I suppose she has no choice, but I don't like it. 

WTF Tuan?! I'm glad that they told him to put a stop to it. That poor kid! 

31 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

My basic point was that I don't think that Paige is the type of person to go cold turkey when it comes to her religious beliefs.  It just doesn't fit my view of her character, given her actions on this series.  As for what other people may believe, or may not believe regardless of circumstances in regards to religion, I am not going to go down that dangerous path of judging people, possibly pissing people off.  Live and let live.  I will only talk about the television character Paige.

I don't think she is, either. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

I don't think that Philip plans on "staying in the game." Quite the opposite. I think he just wants to ... well, not sure if "defect" is the right word here, but stay in America, be an American, be OUT of the game. I think Elizabeth wants to "stay in the game" but in another form closer to home. And I would not be so sure Paige wouldn't be interested in going to the USSR ... she seems pretty anti-America based on what she's being fed by E&P ... it's Gabriel (and company) who don't WANT Paige in the game versus what she wants. 

I guess I was talking about the idea where the family splits and Paige and Elizabeth go to the USSR and Henry and Philip stay. Because Philip and Elizabeth are the two that have expressed a desire to go to the USSR and to stay together. Henry wouldn't want to go and Paige has been horrified at the idea. So neither parent seems to have any reason to want to be in a different country than the other or from the kids and neither kid wants to be in the USSR.

 

55 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

My basic point was that I don't think that Paige is the type of person to go cold turkey when it comes to her religious beliefs.  It just doesn't fit my view of her character, given her actions on this series. 

She might not be going Cold Turkey. Throwing away the cross might just be her no longer having to perform her faith so constantly all the time. It had become a costume. I would think she'd almost have to take a rest from going to church entirely for a while just to recover from all the intense time she's spent their against her will lately.

[jjj]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Or it could be just that her family is like that. Dad went to the school, she's been brought up to think that's the best school to go to (and she's coming up to the age when she starts to go there), Henry likes Chris and Chris loves her dad so her dad seems cool to him. He's getting a view into a family that seems to have a clear tradition and pov on life.

The show does seem to often like to point out how ordinary people are like spies. Chris could easily just have some dad who went to prep school and then an ivy league school and was really into it.

I think it is a case of "Chris likes Henry" and Chris's father sees a kid who has parents who are completely uninvolved in his school life ("huh, Henry is good at math, who knew?"  -- Chris's dad knew).  And if this is a helpful dad, he wants to help a child who has so much talent and so little family direction and interest.  There are plenty of interventionist parents like that -- and sometimes the help is gratefully received, and sometimes it is resented.  It is not clear to me if Chris is already attending this boarding school -- and if so, how does she know Henry?  If she likes Henry, is she sending him away to school?  I know this must have been covered, but I missed these details of where Chris goes to school. 

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, jjj said:

I think it is a case of "Chris likes Henry" and Chris's father sees a kid who has parents who are completely uninvolved in his school life ("huh, Henry is good at math, who knew?"  -- Chris's dad knew).

There is no reason whatsoever that Chris's father would think any such thing. Henry was NOT good in math until recently. The teacher called in Henry's parents and told them that he had suddenly changed. When they got his report card, which they have always looked at, they saw that he had started working much harder in everything and made references to what his report cards had looked like up until now. Because they actually know more about Henry's grades and schoolwork than Chris's dad.

Philip and Elizabeth are not completely uninvolved in anybody's school life. We've heard them talk about Henry's specifically, multiple times. They've gotten him tutors, nagged him to and helped him study for tests they know he has coming up. Until recently he was lazy. Chris's dad didn't know him then.

12 minutes ago, jjj said:

It is not clear to me if Chris is already attending this boarding school -- and if so, how does she know Henry?  If she likes Henry, is she sending him away to school?  I know this must have been covered, but I missed these details of where Chris goes to schoo

How would Henry be hanging out at her house if she lived in New Hampshire? She's seems to be planning to start going to the school in the fall. She told Henry when the acceptance letters would go out so she's probably waiting for hers too. Presumably Henry became friends with her and started studying a lot. Chris told him about the school. Henry showed interest in going to the school too. Chris told her dad that Henry was totally smart. Dad was probably flattered at Henry wanting to go to his school, saw that Henry is a charming kid and was glad to write him the letter. No reason to think that the guy thought Henry was some orphaned waif whose parents weren't taking care of him adequately and the only way to rescue him was writing a letter to an expensive boarding school.

[dubbel zout]

22 minutes ago, jjj said:

It is not clear to me if Chris is already attending this boarding school -- and if so, how does she know Henry? 

Chris's dad is an alumnus of the school, and Chris will be finishing out high school there. Since Henry has spent a lot of time with her and her family, he's heard about it.

[Sarah 103]

9 hours ago, Ina123 said:

I guess people could feel that way if they hadn't lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis.

I feel like this isn't generational, but more about cohorts (I'm really bad at math, so bear with me, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). You had a generation that grew up after the Cuban Missile Crisis or with no memory of it, during detente, when relations with the Soviet Union were slightly better. 

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

So using the words "retired" to describe Philip and Elizabeth once they return is misleading.  They would still have to work, famous heroes or not.  They'd probably work with spy craft or language training or explaining to other spies what the USA is really like, stuff like that., possibly simply propaganda though.

That sounds about right to me. I'm reading a book about the Soviet Space Program, so I'm going to use it as an example. After cosmonauts were no longer flying missions, they were often involved in training, or public relations, like giving tours to important politicians, or appearing at events. 

7 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

How does that work for Social Security purposes.  The kids are entitled to payments if a parent dies, but, what happens when social security gets the second notice that Philip Jennings is dead?  (Maybe, with the first death, no notice was sent.)

They didn't get a notice that the first Philip Jennings died. Prior to the 1980s, social security numbers were not issued until someone applied for one, usually when they started working. What I'm guessing happened is that Philip Jennings is using the name of an infant or very small child who died. The Centre used that information to generate a social security number for our Philip Jennings. The social security administration probably does not know about the first Philip Jennings. 

[Bretton]

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

My basic point was that I don't think that Paige is the type of person to go cold turkey when it comes to her religious beliefs.  It just doesn't fit my view of her character, given her actions on this series.  As for what other people may believe, or may not believe regardless of circumstances in regards to religion, I am not going to go down that dangerous path of judging people, possibly pissing people off.  Live and let live.  I will only talk about the television character Paige.

I agree with you. Religion has been handled really poorly, from a writing perspective, on this show. Paige's behavior was the latest tidbit of unreality on display. That whole scene was really poorly written.

[Clanstarling]

46 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

They didn't get a notice that the first Philip Jennings died. Prior to the 1980s, social security numbers were not issued until someone applied for one, usually when they started working. What I'm guessing happened is that Philip Jennings is using the name of an infant or very small child who died. The Centre used that information to generate a social security number for our Philip Jennings. The social security administration probably does not know about the first Philip Jennings. 

I didn't get my social security number until I applied for college (in the 70's). With my first child, in the late 80's, we were given a form to take home and fill out whenever we felt like it. With my second, four years later, we had to fill out the form before we left the hospital.

[NitneLiun]

14 hours ago, Ina123 said:

The ones who were deported in 2010 almost got a ticker tape parade. They were heroes.

And the hot one dated Putin for a while.

[SunnyBeBe]

Upthread, I mentioned the prospect of P & E returning to Russia, with Paige and Henry staying in America.  (Also possibly, Paige going and Henry staying.)  But, I'm not following the explanation of how Paige and E go to Russia and Henry and Philip stay here. What explanation would be given to Stan and the employees at the travel agency?  Would they say that Paige went to school abroad and mom accompanied her?  Would Henry buy this story?  I just don't see how that would work.  If P & E returned to Russia, I would presume that they would just go and the knowledge of their secret would become known to the FBI. Hopefully, Paige and Henry would not receive too much harsh treatment and could get on with their lives.  

Also, after Claudia gives the signal to leave, what explanation will P & E give to their employees, Stan, school, etc.  Do they fake a disappearance?  Go on a trip and never return?  

[TaurusRose]

I think the reason a lot of us were hoping Paige would hang herself is because we are soooo sick of her.  That said, I don't think the mopey one has adjusted to her new reality at all.  I think she's angry, resentful and distrustful. I had an entirely different read of the scene where she drops her necklace in the trash.  It felt like her parents' lies had ruined another area of her life. Paige feels and acts like a passive-aggressive sneak to me.

This episode got me invested in Oleg's story.  He's the right person mixed up in the wrong time.  Not so much for Mischa and Philip's brother, I so don't care.

I expect a full on confrontation between Claudia and the Jennings at some point.  Stan's and Dennis's reaction to their "asset" was hilarious. That woman never felt right and I would love to see Stan and Dennis (more Dennis than Stan) get a win.  

I just binge watched 13 Reasons Why.  The fact that Tuon suggested suicide to Pasha was beyond repulsive to me.  I don't know what Tuon's issues are, but I officially don't care.  His head can be the 3rd one with a bullet through it as far as I'm concerned.

Edited May 26, 2017 by taurusrose

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I have a difficult time understanding why Philip would want to stay with Elizabeth.  Yes, he cares about her and all of that, but he no longer wants to be involved with killing people, and if he stays with Elizabeth there is always the chance that he will have to kill again.

 

He doesn't just care about her, he's in love with her. It's not proximity to her that puts him at risk for killing, it's his job. If they go back to the USSR they would no longer be Illegals, which is the job he has that requires killing.

43 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

 The fact that Tuon suggested suicide to Pasha was beyond repulsive to me.

He didn't actually suggest suicide. He suggested faking a suicide attempt so his parents would take him back to Russia. 

[scrb]

Why wouldn't Pasha transfer to a different school?

It has to be stay and hate the one school or get out of the country, go back to Russia, even if he has to fake a suicide?

Or the parents go to the principal and report the bullying.

I just don't get this plot at all.  They want to get Pasha's father back to the USSR because he talked shit about the country?

Or now they want to get Pasha's mother back to the country to blackmail the CIA agent who's having an affair with her?

Very farfetched.

Edited May 26, 2017 by scrb

[Dowel Jones]

1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

I think the reason a lot of us were hoping Paige would hang herself is because we are soooo sick of her.

I don't want her dead, but I would have been highly amused if the laundry bag had swung around and knocked her on her can.

[dubbel zout]

16 minutes ago, scrb said:

Why wouldn't Pasha transfer to a different school?

It has to be stay and hate the one school or get out of the country, go back to Russia, even if he has to fake a suicide?

Or the parents go to the principal and report the bullying.

I don't get why no one has suggested a transfer for Pasha either. It's so obvious. I think we learned his mother did talk to a teacher/principal, but nothing happened. Not surprising, given the era. The issue of bullying wasn't taken all that seriously back then. 

[SunnyBeBe]

13 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

I don't want her dead, but I would have been highly amused if the laundry bag had swung around and knocked her on her can.

I did get a little tickled when  I realized that she wasn't going to hang herself. That was a relief.( The irony of your parents rescuing another teen from suicide, when their own kid is at home hanging herself.  Too bizarre for this show. )  It was sort of like a fly, bantering around.  Or a little chihuahua.  lol I couldn't take it seriously.  E is pretty tough for her size though.  I mean, based on how they portray her.  She can beat up large, able bodied trained spies and agents. 

[topanga]

18 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

I don't want her dead, but I would have been highly amused if the laundry bag had swung around and knocked her on her can.

LMAO! And this would be followed by Paige knitting her eyebrows together and slowly asking the laundry bag, "Why...did you do...that?"

I think Holly Taylor is doing fine for a young actress, so I don't fault her for Paige being boring. I think Paige is being written as a one-note character. 

 

18 hours ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

I don't think that Philip plans on "staying in the game." Quite the opposite. I think he just wants to ... well, not sure if "defect" is the right word here, but stay in America, be an American, be OUT of the game. I think Elizabeth wants to "stay in the game" but in another form closer to home. And I would not be so sure Paige wouldn't be interested in going to the USSR ... she seems pretty anti-America based on what she's being fed by E&P ... it's Gabriel (and company) who don't WANT Paige in the game versus what she wants. 

Philip mentioned defecting way back in Season 1, and Elizabeth told him, "Oh, hell no." I think that's when she told the Centre that Philip "likes it too much here." So Philip has been disillusioned with the whole spy business for years. But I'd say he wasn't phoning it in until this season. Watching Martha's life fall apart seems like it really affected him. He even told E that he doesn't want someone (Stan? I can't remember who) to end up being another Martha. 

In regards to Elizabeth wanting to go back to the Soviet Union: does she know anything about the corruption and food shortages that are occurring there? I know Philip does and once asked her why the Soviet Union can't grow its own wheat, and Pasha's dad has told her what things are like now (although he's a defector and in her mind could be exaggerating).  So does E accept that any of the country's problems are self-inflicted? Or does she blame the West for its foot shortages and any other issues? 

Edited May 26, 2017 by topanga

[sistermagpie]

10 minutes ago, topanga said:

Philip mentioned defecting way back in Season 1, and Elizabeth told him, "Oh, hell no." I think that's when she told the Centre that Philip "likes it too much here." S

Nah, she'd been telling them that for years. She specifically *didn't* rat him out after the defection suggestion.

[SunnyBeBe]

7 minutes ago, topanga said:

LMAO! And this would be followed by Paige knitting her eyebrows together and slowly asking the laundry bag, "Why...did you do...that?"

I think Holly Taylor is doing fine for a young actress, so I don't fault her for Paige being boring. I think Paige is being written as a one-note character. 

 

Philip mentioned defecting way back in Season 1, and Elizabeth told him, "Oh, hell no." I think that's when she told the Centre that Philip "likes it too much here." So Philip has been disillusioned with the whole spy business for years. But I'd say he wasn't phoning it in until this season. Watching Martha's life fall apart seems like it really affected him. He even told E that he doesn't want someone (Stan? I can't remember who) to end up being another Martha. 

In regards to Elizabeth wanting to go back to the Soviet Union: does she know anything about the corruption and food shortages that are occurring there? I know Philip does and once asked her why the Soviet Union can't grow its own wheat, and Pasha's dad has told her what things are like now (although he's a defector and in her mind could be exaggerating).  So does E accept that any of the country's problems are self-inflicted? Or does she blame the West for its foot shortages and any other issues? 

IMO, P & E may not know all that the viewers are seeing about Russia, but, E knows enough.  Recall some time ago, E was talking with Paige in her bedroom and Paige asked about how things were in Russia. E got this funny look on her face, hesitated and then said something like, we have our problems or something like that.  She knows that it's very different and that the ample food, outings, recreation,  luxury items,  freedom, etc.  is NOT what they will encounter in Russia.  I do think that she and P are in some denial about how Henry and Paige would adjust.  I think that Paige and Henry would have a much harder time than Pasha is having. here.

E did say earlier that P liked it too much here, but, if he has decided that he wants to return to Russia, then doesn't that signal to the Center that he doesn't love it as much as E thought he did? 

[topanga]

25 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Nah, she'd been telling them that for years. She specifically *didn't* rat him out after the defection suggestion.

So remind me, please: why did the Centre kidnap and interrogate P & E when it did?

19 hours ago, millennium said:

I think it would be nice to be friends with undercover Elizabeth.   She seems like a lot of fun when she's grooming potential victims.   Where does that come from?  She's so dour otherwise.   On the other hand, default Elizabeth is far more attractive than undercover Elizabeth.   It's a shame default Elizabeth can't have undercover Elizabeth's bubbly personality.   Still, I wouldn't throw default Elizabeth out of bed, even if she did kill me afterwards.

So true. Default Elizabeth is cold, especially when she talks to Claudia or her own children. She's a little warmer when she talks to Philip. 

I wonder if she's that way with the kids because a) she feels that as American kids, they're already too soft, and she wants to toughen them up, or b) she's used to her tough Russian mother and feels that's how children are supposed to be raised, not this asinine "tell me your feelings" crap she sees American parents practicing. 

[sistermagpie]

51 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I don't get why no one has suggested a transfer for Pasha either. It's so obvious. I think we learned his mother did talk to a teacher/principal, but nothing happened. Not surprising, given the era. The issue of bullying wasn't taken all that seriously back then. 

And they did bring it up as a possibility. When Tuan first talked about the bullying one of the Jennings said "What if they just transfer him to a different school?" There's just no reason not to do it. Alexei or Evgenia could even mention it to the Americans they work with and get suggestions.

1 minute ago, topanga said:

So remind me, please: why did the Centre kidnap and interrogate P & E when it did?

Because they knew there was a mole on their side and pretended to interrogate all the agents to see if they'd admit to being it. The mole was really Nina. Philip got tortured during his interrogation and Elizabeth didn't, and that was because they were already suspicious of him thanks to Elizabeth's reports over the years.

[Eulipian 5k]

What E seems to hate about America is the actual ways of thinking, ie EST, Christianity, etc. She didn't seem to understand that Henry joining the FBI would be exactly what the Centre might want about a 2nd gen "illegal". (She said ,'Well they won't get Henry' during her conversation with Phil). P nor E would never survive a background check, (they found William's bogus SSN in a deep search) but Matthew  Henry and Paige are true blue, born & bred, with actual SSN's.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Eulipian 5k

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

P nor E would never survive a background check, (they found William's bogus SSN in a deep search) but Matthew  Henry and Paige are true blue, born & bred, with actual SSN's.

I think she did get it. She meant she didn't want Henry joining the FBI for real and becoming Stan, I thought.

[topanga]

2 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

What E seems to hate about America is the actual ways of thinking, ie EST, Christianity, etc. She didn't seem to understand that Henry joining the FBI would be exactly what the Centre might want about a 2nd gen "illegal". (She said ,'Well they won't get Henry' during her conversation with Phil). P nor E would never survive a background check, (they found William's bogus SSN in a deep search) but Matthew and Paige are true blue, born & bred, with actual SSN's.

But what makes her so cold with her children--to the extent that she doesn't seem to sympathize with them? Is that just per personality? Is she a psychopath? Or could it be the hardships she's faced in her life such as poverty, rape, having to marry a man she barely knew and certainly didn't want? Is it the toll of being a spy for 20 years? I'm contrasting her with Philip, who can be oblivious to the kids at times, but who seems to care about how they feel. And he tries hard to connect emotionally with Paige--and occasionally Henry. It seems like Elizabeth just tries to handle the kids. 

Didn't Philip have similar childhood experiences as Elizabeth? I know he wasn't raped, but he experience Extreme Sex Ed where he had to learn to screw (and be screwed by) all types of women and men. And his father was a prison guard, but weren't they still poor? And hasn't he also been a spy for 20 years? 

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, topanga said:

And he tries hard to connect emotionally with Paige--and occasionally Henry. It seems like Elizabeth just tries to handle the kids. 

I think Elizabeth tries to connect with Paige all the time and Paige knows she does. She just thinks that it's important that the kids be strong. And, I think, she's simply not the kind of person who finds it easy to understand people who aren't like her. Once she has something she sees as similar she can get them a bit, but that can take a while. With Paige especially I see Elizabeth as practically desperate to be loved by Paige and make sure Paige feels loved by her. With Henry I think she's just gently amused by him a lot of the time.

3 minutes ago, topanga said:

Didn't Philip have similar childhood experiences as Elizabeth? I know he wasn't raped, but he experience Extreme Sex Ed where he had to learn to screw (and be screwed by) all types of women and men. And his father was a prison guard, but weren't they still poor? And hasn't he also been a spy for 20 years? 

Well, that partly goes back to the mystery of exactly what Philip's childhood was like. We know he was poor--poorer than Elizabeth it seems to me given the flashbacks. He murdered at least one person at 10. But he also maybe just started out with a different basic personality. Even when they talk about their childhoods it seems like the main thing Elizabeth got was that it was important to be self-reliant and loyal to the country and Philip got that you had to work hard and protect your family. (Though weirdly Elizabeth's family relationships have been central to the show while Philip is far more often isolated.)

[Eulipian 5k]

5 minutes ago, topanga said:

Didn't Philip have similar childhood experiences as Elizabeth?

And we learned last week that Mischa's dad was as proud of him when he joined the KG to the B, as Liz's mom was. But I suspect that because she had to cling so tightly to her ideology in order to persevere after the rape, may be the key to understanding the two.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

And we learned last week that Mischa's dad was as proud of him when he joined the KG to the B, as Liz's mom was.

Philip/Mischa's dad was dead long before he joined the KGB. It was Oleg's dad who was proud of him when he joined the KGB.

[Eulipian 5k]

Just now, sistermagpie said:

Philip/Mischa's dad was dead long before he joined the KGB. It was Oleg's dad who was proud of him when he joined the KGB.

Didn't his brother say something about him being smart and why they chose him to be a spy? pls help my addled, conflating, brain.