S24.E09: Week 9: Semi-Finals

[dcubed]

10 hours ago, Venee said:

A hot mess waiting to happen.

Agree.  I do not want to see kids crying.

[dcubed]

4 hours ago, Uke said:

That's sad to hear. It means that she just didn't understand what the problem was and CAI failed to get her to understand.  She just didn't grasp the concept (or rejected the concept) of connecting with Sasha and the audience and those connections are part of the performance.  Just perfecting the steps isn't enough.  Someone commented above that she's always been judged only on technical skill.  I think having to sell the performance with personality was foreign to her or a concept she rejected.  I do agree though that following Laurie into this season was a mistake.  She should have waited at least one or a few seasons.

Or like some people I know, time would not have mattered.  Some people are just guarded with their emotions OR they learn to stuff them lest they end up disappointed.  She ended up with a pretty good life but it didn't start so positively and perhaps she learned early to not show anything but happy so she didn't get rejected.  I realize I am arm-chair analyzing her but she reminds me of a friend who is really lovely and fun but guarded due to childhood neglect issues.  Even at 50+ years old, she doesn't have it in her to allow herself to be vulnerable and I think it's vulnerability more than anything that is lacking in Simone.  And quite frankly, I don't blame her and I wish that instead of the blubbering pile of mess I can be, I was more like that. 

[Archery]

13 hours ago, enthus-pro said:

Thoughts on contestants for week 9 (in alphabetical order):

 

 

Normani & Val - think Normani has an uncanny ability to resurrect a specific time period/style, and that her blues-inspired jazz routine allowed one to get lost into the soulful, historic celebratory night.  Complete with a tapping spiral staircase, timeless vocal/band tunes and street surroundings decorated by excited New Orleans locals, thought all the rich genre elements fed off one another to create a magical number.  It was nice to see how the audience was a natural, cohesive extension of the performance, and how it didn't delineate itself from Normani and Val.  Perhaps it was her ability to confront and reconcile with her countless past traumas, but thought those difficulties gave her jazz performance an extra rare, sublime touch, that wasn't present in last week's jive trio number.  While carrying out the jazz routine, it was also nice to see all the various positive qualities emanating from her during the performance (judges). Think she is someone who will continue to learn, who has a lot of experience/knowledge (and for such a young age), and that its nice to see that the entertainment industry has someone special like her to be around with for years to come.

 

Rashad & Emma - the whispering hips at the top, Rashad's quiet, electric touch up Emma's arms, the soft cucarachas steps that developed afterwards - thought the opening was an expressive segue into their romantic rumba. It was nice to see Rashad's live arms moving with his body, the confident shapes he produced as he held a driving Emma across the floor, and the attentiveness/care with which he showed to her throughout. Thought there was a genuine sense of trust and subtle elegance that emerged even more from their early, emotive Viennese Waltz. Maybe his center could've been a bit lower, but thought that it didn't detract from the overall weightlessness of their dance. When seeing how comfortable Emma looked hitting fan position/stretching out, her convincing cradled wish to dance, and the gentle touch to draw a pondering chin back into hold, thought Emma felt and visualized the music well and that her imaginary vision came alive on the night. In line with their show stopping quickstep, its nice to see that they are peaking at the right moment, and how they carried out two quality, back-to-back routines to showcase their place in the final.

 

 

Congrats to the winners of season 24 DWTS 2017 and wishing them the very best moving forward. Best of luck to all the celebs and looking forward to their dances.

Enthus-Pro, I wish you could replace Bruno or Carrie-Ann as a DTWS judge. Your poetic critiques are so much better than any of theirs. 

[majormama]

I'm just going to vent a moment about the whole concept of "realness" and "authenticity". What happened with Simone is something I've seen many times in many contexts. They tell her they want her to be "real", and then they tell her to make up a fake name for a fake character, and then be that character. Because apparently, the best way to be "real" and "authentic" is to be fake and pretend to be something you're not. The real Simone is reserved and private. What we saw *is* the real Simone. What they really want to see is vulnerability, but publicly showing that deeply personal part of herself is not who she is. I can definitely understand her frustration at thinking she is being her real self, but her real self isn't "real" enough, and how can you fix that?

[bealled]

Wasn't Shawn Johnson on her original season with Mark very similar to Simone this season? I remember Shawn seeming stiff that season, but she ended up pulling out a win (likely because Gilles had a lackluster freestyle and the competition was not as tough overall that season). I think the person who said Simone would have done better with Mark or Derek is correct, although I really don't remember seeing a huge growth in the emotive aspect from Shawn in her season with Mark. Once the All Stars season came around I think Shawn had matured and had more life experiences allowing her to really shine that season. I do think the judges constantly harping on Simone's emotions was her main downfall. Simone seemed like she was constantly critiqued whereas David, a lesser dancer, doesn't really receive that harsh of critiques or drastically lower scores so it's no surprise he would outlast her.

Personally I see a ton of similarity between Shawn and Simone. Their personalities seem pretty similar to me in real life (both seem a bit shy/more introverted).

[spanana]

14 minutes ago, majormama said:

I'm just going to vent a moment about the whole concept of "realness" and "authenticity". What happened with Simone is something I've seen many times in many contexts. They tell her they want her to be "real", and then they tell her to make up a fake name for a fake character, and then be that character. Because apparently, the best way to be "real" and "authentic" is to be fake and pretend to be something you're not. The real Simone is reserved and private. What we saw *is* the real Simone. What they really want to see is vulnerability, but publicly showing that deeply personal part of herself is not who she is. I can definitely understand her frustration at thinking she is being her real self, but her real self isn't "real" enough, and how can you fix that?

It's also not the kind of thing that even if Simone understood what they were asking, she was ever going to "fix it" over the course of a 3 month reality show.  It's very different telling someone to fix their arms or to point their toes versus another trying to tell them to break down emotional walls that have been built up over a course of their lifetime when they don't know how to be any other way.

Quote

I remember Shawn seeming stiff that season, but she ended up pulling out a win (likely because Gilles had a lackluster freestyle and the competition was not as tough overall that season). I think the person who said Simone would have done better with Mark or Derek is correct, although I really don't remember seeing a huge growth in the emotive aspect from Shawn in her season with Mark. Once the All Stars season came around I think Shawn had matured and had more life experiences allowing her to really shine that season.

I agree with this as well.  I think the Shawn most people remember on this show is All-Stars Shawn, but All-Stars Shawn was very different than Shawn 1.0.  But once Shawn separated from gymnastics a bit, grew up a little and came into her own she was quite different.  Yes, she won but that was less about her fantastic performances and more about Cheryl screwing up Gilles freestyle.

I also think in general people like to hold up that Simone is 20 (or 21?), whereas Shawn was 17 and Laurie was 16 as some sort of proof that Simone should be ready and more mature than they were on their initial go rounds.  But Simone is a young 20.  A 20 that has been holed up in a gym with minimal socialization outside of her sport for years, as one has to do to be at that level.  It's no different, at least in terms of the socialization aspects, from where Shawn 1.0 and Laurie were at when they were on the show.  Yes, she's older, but she still hasn't had a chance to live her life outside of a gym as yet.

Edited May 17, 2017 by spanana

[boyznkatz]

2 minutes ago, majormama said:

I'm just going to vent a moment about the whole concept of "realness" and "authenticity". What happened with Simone is something I've seen many times in many contexts. They tell her they want her to be "real", and then they tell her to make up a fake name for a fake character, and then be that character. Because apparently, the best way to be "real" and "authentic" is to be fake and pretend to be something you're not. The real Simone is reserved and private. What we saw *is* the real Simone. What they really want to see is vulnerability, but publicly showing that deeply personal part of herself is not who she is. I can definitely understand her frustration at thinking she is being her real self, but her real self isn't "real" enough, and how can you fix that?

This! If the girl doesn't want to cry for Carrie Anne, they should leave her alone. I saw an interview with Bonner where he pretty much said the show twisted around everything he did to make him look sleazy. He actually did seem to be a gentleman off the show, like Sharna and Normani said. Why don't they just stop with the manipulation and leave people alone, and let the chips fall where they may. Pretty soon no one will want to put themselves through this BS.

[sinkwriter]

Quote

They tell her they want her to be "real", and then they tell her to make up a fake name for a fake character, and then be that character. Because apparently, the best way to be "real" and "authentic" is to be fake and pretend to be something you're not.

It's not that they wanted her to be fake and pretend to be something she's not. It's that they were trying to give her exercises or ways to loosen up. She's so technically spot-on, she's brilliant in that way, but it seems she doesn't know how to just let loose and have FUN. Real fun. And use that to tap into showing us more than just "game face" Simone. Even Simone herself admitted that she's missed out on a lot, given how dedicated to her sport she had to be, and that because of it, there are things she just doesn't know how to do.

To give herself a fake name or character gets her out of the Simone-the-gymnast mode and into a new headspace, one in which she can connect better with Sasha, with her own emotions, with simply being a girl and not an athlete. At least, that was the goal, I think.

Unfortunately, those lessons came too late, I think. They should have given her those tools earlier on.

[majormama]

I think you're missing my point. I object to using the word "real" instead of a more accurate description like vulnerable or transparent. If the judges said Simone needed to be more emotionally transparent, great! But being shy or introverted or private or reserved is just as real as any other way of being. I don't like the idea that being reserved isn't "real", and that introverts need to force themselves to become something they're not in order to be "real". (I'm sure you will be shocked to discover that I'm an introvert!) ;)

[iMonrey]

Quote

So one can dislike her for any reason except for being robotic? You're right, it is subjective but that's how some people feel. Or at least how I do, though I wouldn't use the word robotic to describe her. Closed off, maybe. 

Every season, there's someone who dances to perfection, almost, technically - whether it's Kristie Yamaguchi or Meryl Davis or Laurie Hernandez or Simone - it's usually someone with an athletic background - and people start saying the're perfect but like robots and "don't connect." I don't buy it. I get that there are some contestants that the audience doesn't really care for one way or another - in fact I feel that way about both Normani and Rashad. But this criticism that some celebs are "too robotic" or "too perfect" doesn't wash with me. The pros are always perfect, you never hear that about them. I just think there's a sort of built-in resentment against certain female celebs that come from some background that gives them an advantage, like skaters and gymnasts, because they're used to training for routines performed to music. So every year you start hearing things like "Oh, well, yeah they're technically good, but they're like robots." I'm tired of it. You either dance well or you don't, period. Hate who you wanna hate, "connect with" who you want to like, but this nonsense about being too perfect or too robotic has worn thin for me. It just sounds like an excuse to dislike and/or criticize someone who is obviously a great dancer.

[sinkwriter]

Then according to your definitions I guess I don't think Simone is a great dancer. I'm not criticizing or hating on her. I think she seems like a sweet young woman and she's extraordinarily talented as a gymnast.

However... I truly think she's technically good, but doesn't connect with Sasha or with the music and what she's doing. You can do all the moves perfectly but not put any feeling into them. That is possible. Gymnastics doesn't require emotion. In fact, it's probably better if you don't inject emotion into those moves because you need to be hyper-focused and undistracted. Dance is different. You need to show some emotional connection to the music and to your partner, and I don't see that when I watch Simone dance. I felt the same way about Nastia.  On the other hand, I thought Laurie was able to let loose a little bit and have some fun with her routines and her partner, and it came through in her dances. 

It's like watching two different actors play the same scene. They both say the exact same lines, but one actor may connect better to being the character and portraying the emotions of the scene while the other seems to be just saying the lines. Technically they both played the same scene and said the same things, but one definitely gives us as viewers more to connect with while the other gives us little to nothing (and maybe even seems to be trying too hard).

Quote

But being shy or introverted or private or reserved is just as real as any other way of being. I don't like the idea that being reserved isn't "real", and that introverts need to force themselves to become something they're not in order to be "real".

I agree and understand what you're saying. I'm introverted too. But I do think there must be examples on this show of introverted people who did well while still being themselves. Bethany Mota, perhaps? I rooted for her big time, and (if I recall correctly) she was fairly shy and reserved. But she was able to connect with Derek and with the music and the routines she was performing, and that showed through.

Edited May 17, 2017 by sinkwriter

[majormama]

25 minutes ago, sinkwriter said:

I agree and understand what you're saying. I'm introverted too. But I do think there must be examples on this show of introverted people who did well while still being themselves. Bethany Mota, perhaps? I rooted for her big time, and (if I recall correctly) she was fairly shy and reserved. But she was able to connect with Derek and with the music and the routines she was performing, and that showed through.

I completely agree with you. Introverts can definitely step out of their comfort zone and practice being open, transparent, and vulnerable in certain situations (performance) and with trusted people (dance partners), and create really beautiful routines. My one and only objection is in calling that state of being "real", as if all other states aren't real, when they could call it open, transparent, or vulnerable.

Edited May 17, 2017 by majormama

[realdancemom]

32 minutes ago, sinkwriter said:

Then according to your definitions I guess I don't think Simone is a great dancer. I'm not criticizing or hating on her. I think she seems like a sweet young woman and she's extraordinarily talented as a gymnast.

However... I truly think she's technically good, but doesn't connect with Sasha or with the music and what she's doing. You can do all the moves perfectly but not put any feeling into them. That is possible. Gymnastics doesn't require emotion. In fact, it's probably better if you don't inject emotion into those moves because you need to be hyper-focused and undistracted. Dance is different. You need to show some emotional connection to the music and to your partner, and I don't see that when I watch Simone dance. I felt the same way about Nastia.  On the other hand, I thought Laurie was able to let loose a little bit and have some fun with her routines and her partner, and it came through in her dances. 

I agree and understand what you're saying. I'm introverted too. But I do think there must be examples on this show of introverted people who did well while still being themselves. Bethany Mota, perhaps? I rooted for her big time, and (if I recall correctly) she was fairly shy and reserved. But she was able to connect with Derek and with the music and the routines she was performing, and that showed through.

I think both Normani and Meryl were introverted but were able to perform during their dances.  So I guess I wouldn't call it real either.  Sometimes, they are playing characters. 

[Wings]

9 hours ago, Uke said:

That's sad to hear. It means that she just didn't understand what the problem was and CAI failed to get her to understand.  She just didn't grasp the concept (or rejected the concept) of connecting with Sasha and the audience and those connections are part of the performance.  Just perfecting the steps isn't enough.  Someone commented above that she's always been judged only on technical skill.  I think having to sell the performance with personality was foreign to her or a concept she rejected.  I do agree though that following Laurie into this season was a mistake.  She should have waited at least one or a few seasons.

I agree.  It is about performance having nothing to do with Laurie, the person.  Laurie performed with ease and won the crowd.  Judges make it clear that they are judged on this as well as skill.   So Simone isn't a performer, nothing wrong with that.  

She couldn't have followed Bindi either if viewers and judges make the comparison.  I don't think they do.  They just want to see showmanship and that can vary depending on personality and how that manifests.  They put some stock in looking like you are having fun, too.  

[realdancemom]

This week the judges were following narratives.  So the pros worked with their celebrities all season but the judges only needed a little time to magically fix things.  So they pretend that these problems were fixed.

Normani - Well, Normani's problem was really Val's problem.  Val is following Derek where they don't necessarily follow rules.  They know that Len is the only judge that will ding them so they produce flashy numbers and hope the viewers will make up with votes.  At least, they didn't pretend that there wasn't a problem in the dance which I did notice.  But Normani shouldn't be saying that was the hardest dance that she did in the semi-finals.  She should have had more practice being in hold by now.

Rashad - his arms did look better in the rumba.  His feet did look a little better in the rumba even though there was still a problem.  He did keep up in the quickstep but his feet were definitely a problem in that dance.  He does have really big feet though.  So it's hard not to notice them.

Simone - She's not going to change in a short period of time.  She shouldn't because she needs to be on auto-pilot and use her muscle memory when she does gymnastics.  It seemed like she connected more in the jive but I think it's because the jive suits her personality just like the Charleston did.  In her rumba, she started out too drill like again but then she did get more fluid as the dance progressed.  I can see her trying to get connection even though it didn't quite work.  I think Sasha said she's fine because she was already beating herself up over the whole thing.

David is just David.  He's improved since the start of the show.  But one session with a judge didn't make his dance better than the waltz last week.  Also, CAI said that she dinged him for a lift but then he got a 9.  Does that mean she was going to give him a 10 which would have been ridiculous?  This week, the judges kept his scores pretty close to the other two.  Freestyles also don't get less than a 9, I think.  So he could be a spoiler depending on how many fans vote for him.

Edited May 17, 2017 by realdancemom

[ChaChaSlide]

4 hours ago, spanana said:

 

I also think in general people like to hold up that Simone is 20 (or 21?), whereas Shawn was 17 and Laurie was 16 as some sort of proof that Simone should be ready and more mature than they were on their initial go rounds.  But Simone is a young 20.  A 20 that has been holed up in a gym with minimal socialization outside of her sport for years, as one has to do to be at that level.  It's no different, at least in terms of the socialization aspects, from where Shawn 1.0 and Laurie were at when they were on the show.  Yes, she's older, but she still hasn't had a chance to live her life outside of a gym as yet.

All of this is spot on. I also think that people don't realize (or don't know) that Simone has ADHD, which really impacts how mature one comes across, as well as that ability to socially/emotionally connect in the typical way. One of my professors once said that the line between severe ADHD and mild Autism is so thin, it's almost nonexistent; a lot of the behaviors you see in Autistic people, people with ADHD often have those same traits but to a lesser/not as obvious extent.

When you look at Simone with that lens her closed-offness during the dances that required a lot of emotional connection makes a lot more sense. That being said Simone's personality is PERFECT for being the best gymnast of all time, only thing she has to worry about is executing the techniques with precision, but with dance her personality falls short, and that's ok! 

[Callaphera]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Every season, there's someone who dances to perfection, almost, technically - whether it's Kristie Yamaguchi or Meryl Davis or Laurie Hernandez or Simone - it's usually someone with an athletic background - and people start saying the're perfect but like robots and "don't connect." I don't buy it. I get that there are some contestants that the audience doesn't really care for one way or another - in fact I feel that way about both Normani and Rashad. But this criticism that some celebs are "too robotic" or "too perfect" doesn't wash with me. The pros are always perfect, you never hear that about them. I just think there's a sort of built-in resentment against certain female celebs that come from some background that gives them an advantage, like skaters and gymnasts, because they're used to training for routines performed to music. So every year you start hearing things like "Oh, well, yeah they're technically good, but they're like robots." I'm tired of it. You either dance well or you don't, period. Hate who you wanna hate, "connect with" who you want to like, but this nonsense about being too perfect or too robotic has worn thin for me. It just sounds like an excuse to dislike and/or criticize someone who is obviously a great dancer.

tl;dr summary of following post: technical ability doesn't matter as much to me as emotion and feeling does.

I guess it depends on how you frame your view of the show. Are you watching it as strictly a technical dance competition? Are you watching it as a reality competition show? Or are you watching it as a popularity contest with celebrities and more sequins than you'd see at the Golden Globe awards? It sounds like I'm more of a mix between two and three (with heavy leanings towards three because I love me some sparkle) whereas you're closer to one and two. And that's fine. Not everyone is going to see it the same way. 

I don't care if someone can do the perfect Flying Mancuso Spin that turns into a four step Zaljecko and ends in a Sugared Swizzle Stick with a Hough Chaser*. I wouldn't be able to identify those moves if I tried (oh, except the Samba Roll because of all the "zomg, so hard!" comments in previous years and some really awkward looking ones) because I am the epitome of White Girl Dancing, bad hip swivels and raising the roof and all. In fact, I do a killer sprinkler. So I appreciate the personality and the character of the celebrity as well as the story being told on the dance floor. I like to be transported by the dance the same way a good book immerses me in their world. It's why dances like Normani's VW this week make me feel like cranky Len: I want to be taken back to old Vienna and not this modern pish-posh. 

So for me, the technical aspect of the dance matters less than being able to be transported by the dance. And in order for that to happen, both dance partners have to be able to produce a character or show emotions that bring me in and match the style and feel of the dance. If it's a sexier dance, I appreciate the flirty looks. If it's a joyful dance, I like seeing a genuine smile. If it's a sweet and emotional dance, nothing does it quite like those adorable head nods of "I got you". In order for that to happen, yes, the partners have to have a connection of some sort and they have to make eye contact. They have to be complimentary parts of the same machine. The parts may work perfectly but if they don't work together, it doesn't matter as much. Therefore, my criticism of celebrities tends more towards the personality side than whether or not they dance well. It's why I prefer a David dance versus a Simone dance. It's why I'll prefer a piano player who feels the music but makes mistakes versus someone who is technically perfect but doesn't put the same soul into it.

I guess what my novel length post boils down to is that when I say something like that, it's not that I'm making an excuse to dislike someone. It's my genuine opinion. There's no hidden meanings or thinly veiled whatever. I'm not speaking for everyone, just me, but the fact is that two people can watch the same show but get two completely different things from it. Neither is less valid, neither is less honest than the other, it just is what it is. 

It's probably no different from the teeth grinding that I've done in previous seasons when I see tons of posts saying how trashy Sharna is because of her more sexual routines and because of her hair colour (really? Hair colour makes you trashy? Because I rock that exact same shade of red and I like to think I'm as far from trashy as it gets). So I get it but I also have to remind myself that those feelings are completely valid for other people, just not me. Although, if we want to talk about the orgasm/guppy face she makes during the sexy dances, it's open season over here and come sit with me, because I'll bring the cookies and wine.

*Obviously made up but awesome names that they should use in dance

[dcubed]

56 minutes ago, Callaphera said:

It's probably no different from the teeth grinding that I've done in previous seasons when I see tons of posts saying how trashy Sharna is because of her more sexual routines and because of her hair colour (really? Hair colour makes you trashy? Because I rock that exact same shade of red and I like to think I'm as far from trashy as it gets). So I get it but I also have to remind myself that those feelings are completely valid for other people, just not me.

I was rocking with everything you had to say.  I wanted to high five you or buy you a beer.  Until this ^ You had me until this.  When are we going to stop deciding that how someone looks defines who they are.  Red hair makes you trashy?  Well, OK but I'm a red head.  I guess then it's OK to say that fat people are untrustworthy and lazy?  That people with tattoos are uneducated and racist?  There is a difference between liking a performance and judging a person.  I've gone too far off topic but I will say, once I learned about the ignore button, it increased my pleasure in reading posts exponentially. 

Outside of that, I want you to teach me how to do a Flying Mancuso Spin, a four step Zaljecko,  a Sugared Swizzle Stick and a Hough Chaser or at least be my guest at a wedding as I also suffer from White Girl Dancing Syndrome. 

[sinkwriter]

Quote

I agree.  It is about performance having nothing to do with Laurie, the person.  Laurie performed with ease and won the crowd.  Judges make it clear that they are judged on this as well as skill.   So Simone isn't a performer, nothing wrong with that.  

I think you hit the proverbial nail on the head for me with this argument. It's not that Simone isn't a talented dancer. She can do the moves. We've all seen her do the moves. That's the technique part of it. But she's just not a performer, she can't connect in the way that makes someone really good at performing the song and music and the emotion of a dance, and that does make a difference in presentation.

And I'm not saying that's true for every dance she does. I thought she did a lovely dance with Sasha this week, and I loved her flapper dance (I don't recall if it was a Charleston or a jive). But overall I do think she's more technique than performance, and that is all about connection. The reasons for her being unable to perform well are a whole other story, and understandable. But that doesn't mean I don't watch her and wish she could get to that next level in her performance. As I said earlier in this thread, I really did expect her to reach the finals and was looking forward to seeing her and Sasha do all sorts of amazing gymnastic moves. She just isn't my absolute favorite because my favorites tend to be the ones who can do the technique and perform.

[Callaphera]

3 minutes ago, dcubed said:

I was rocking with everything you had to say.  I wanted to high five you or buy you a beer.  Until this ^ You had me until this.  When are we going to stop deciding that how someone looks defines who they are.  Red hair makes you trashy?  Well, OK but I'm a red head.  I guess then it's OK to say that fat people are untrustworthy and lazy?  That people with tattoos are uneducated and racist?  There is a difference between liking a performance and judging a person.  I've gone too far off topic but I will say, once I learned about the ignore button, it increased my pleasure in reading posts exponentially. 

Outside of that, I want you to teach me how to do a Flying Mancuso Spin, a four step Zaljecko,  a Sugared Swizzle Stick and a Hough Chaser or at least be my guest at a wedding as I also suffer from White Girl Dancing Syndrome. 

It was a bad comparison to begin with but the only other thing that ever annoyed me about the fanbase opinions or posts was during the Tamar Braxton season, when there were valid reasons given for why someone didn't like her and it was boiled down by others to "You say you don't like her because you think she's cold or because she seems like a bitch but what you're really trying to say is you don't like her because she's black" which... wasn't true and seemed even less appropriate. So you're right and I definitely don't believe that appearance should determine who a person is. I was at a loss to draw from personal experience - and I definitely wanted to make sure that it was screamingly clear that it was opinion even if I had to beat a dead horse by the end of it - and chose badly. 

White Girl Dancers of the world unite! We know we're bad but damn it, we have fun doing it. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

But she's just not a performer, she can't connect in the way that makes someone really good at performing the song and music and the emotion of a dance, and that does make a difference in presentation.

When I look at Simone I see the same giggly little girl and the same proficiency in dancing skills I saw in Laurie Hernandez. All this talk of "connecting" with her partner and "connecting" with the music and "connecting" with the audience is hogwash IMO. It's like saying "her emotion is green, it's supposed to be blue." It's so subjective it's meaningless. Her performance level is the same as Laurie's too, she does all the steps and has fantastic flexibility and footwork. I see her looking at Sasha, I see her winking at the camera, she's doing all the "performing" the dance requires. I just think it comes down to you either want to see it or you don't. The attempt to assign some ethereal, emotional description to her dancing i.e. "it gives me the feels" is a lot of projection, I think. I enjoy watching her dance ten times more than either Normani or Rashad . . . am I watching her wrong? Or is it just a lot of subjective perception/bias and nothing else?

Edited May 17, 2017 by iMonrey

[realdancemom]

1 hour ago, sinkwriter said:

I think you hit the proverbial nail on the head for me with this argument. It's not that Simone isn't a talented dancer. She can do the moves. We've all seen her do the moves. That's the technique part of it. But she's just not a performer, she can't connect in the way that makes someone really good at performing the song and music and the emotion of a dance, and that does make a difference in presentation.

And I'm not saying that's true for every dance she does. I thought she did a lovely dance with Sasha this week, and I loved her flapper dance (I don't recall if it was a Charleston or a jive). But overall I do think she's more technique than performance, and that is all about connection. The reasons for her being unable to perform well are a whole other story, and understandable. But that doesn't mean I don't watch her and wish she could get to that next level in her performance. As I said earlier in this thread, I really did expect her to reach the finals and was looking forward to seeing her and Sasha do all sorts of amazing gymnastic moves. She just isn't my absolute favorite because my favorites tend to be the ones who can do the technique and perform.

She did the jive this week and her flapper dance was a Charleston.  In my previous post, those are the two dances that I said match her personality.  The other one where she showed emotion was when she danced about her parents.

I also like her Disney dance even though I previously said that it looked more like a jazz dance and she was supposed to do contemporary.  In this case, I don't care because I just really liked it.  And I was also looking forward to Sasha and Simone doing a gymnastic freestyle.

Edited May 17, 2017 by realdancemom

[shoregirl]

22 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

 I enjoy watching her dance ten times more than either Normani or Rashad . . . am I watching her wrong? Or is it just a lot of subjective perception/bias and nothing else?

I feel the same. Much of what has been said about Simone , i feel about Normani. Shes a good dancer but it leaves me cold for a lack of a better word. Dancing like most other artistic things are subjective . 

          Im disappointed that Simone was voted off and im not really sure if im going to watch next week. I'll probably just watch on dvr after it finishes recording. It will most likely take me 15 min tops to watch the whole thing.

[sinkwriter]

Quote

I see her looking at Sasha, I see her winking at the camera, she's doing all the "performing" the dance requires. I just think it comes down to you either want to see it or you don't.

I really do disagree.

Can you tell me that actors are all the same if they do the same moves in a scene? Or... do some resonate more with you as a viewer because they're able to reach a level of performance that others cannot? Surely you can acknowledge there is a difference in performance when looking at performances by shitty actors, general-to-above-average actors, and truly amazing actors? I feel the same comparison can be made with dance performances. Just as you as a viewer can feel when a scene is not working because an actor simply doesn't have the right chops to get to the level of emotion needed for the character, the same can be said for dance performances. Some dances - not all, but some - require a level of emotional commitment, spontaneity and genuineness that cannot be reached simply by going through the motions.

Same thing for when a person connects with another person. You can be listening to them, but not really paying attention to their body language, and not really absorbing what they're saying or feeling. You're just waiting for the moment when you get to speak again. That's surface level connection. That's different than if you're really going for something deeper, where you're looking into the person's eyes, truly shutting up and letting them say their piece and being "in the moment" with the person, where you have no pre-conceived ideas you feel the need to assert - instead, you're simply listening and truly hearing them and what they're saying and feeling. You "get" them and relate to them on a deeper level than if you're just going through the motions of a conversation.  

When Simone winks and looks at Sasha, I feel like she's going through the motions of the dance, the techniques she's learned, but not actually going deeper with it. That doesn't mean her performance doesn't have merit or entertainment. I'm just saying that there's a higher level of performance that she's not getting to, and maybe she can't get to because of her rigorous gymnastic training (or other reasons people have discussed in this thread, such as the ADHD). 

Edited May 18, 2017 by sinkwriter

[spanana]

I do really think it's all subjective.  For me, it's not that I don't see Simone's legit shortcomings.  However I just didn't see Laurie as much better.  I think Laurie was more naturally graceful to an extent, but Laurie was very one note to me as well.  She could do wide eyed wonder well, but with maybe one or two exceptions, I never felt like her performances went emotionally deeper than that.  So while I get the Simone being emotionally closed off argument, I guess I don't see where Laurie's emoting was so much better.  Unless big eyes and a huge smile were the appropriate emotions for every dance she did.  I feel like the only exception I remember was that Janet Jackson number.  

But of course different strokes.  I still tend to think if Simone and Laurie had reversed seasons (and partners), they might have seen very different treatment from the judges/TPTB.   

Edited May 18, 2017 by spanana

[realdancemom]

38 minutes ago, spanana said:

I do really think it's all subjective.  For me, it's not that I don't see Simone's legit shortcomings.  However I just didn't see Laurie as much better.  I think Laurie was more naturally graceful to an extent, but Laurie was very one note to me as well.  She could do wide eyed wonder well, but with maybe one or two exceptions, I never felt like her performances went emotionally deeper than that.  So while I get the Simone being emotionally closed off argument, I guess I don't see where Laurie's emoting was so much better.  Unless big eyes and a huge smile were the appropriate emotions for every dance she did.  I feel like the only exception I remember was that Janet Jackson number.  

But of course different strokes.  I still tend to think if Simone and Laurie had reversed seasons (and partners), they might have seen very different treatment from the judges/TPTB.   

Laurie is a little bit more fluid than Simone.  But I also thought that she was sometimes too rigid.  I do think that Laurie played certain characters better, e.g. the Chicago number.  But it did feel like a kid playing a character but not really understanding the part.  However, I did see that she was performing and not just going on auto pilot.

Another big difference is that Laurie's only threat was James.  I think most people knew that Calvin would be third.  Simone had to go against more competition.  Even somebody like David who is not a great dancer was a threat because of his fan base.  

[Zuleikha]

What happened with Simone is something I've seen many times in many contexts. They tell her they want her to be "real", and then they tell her to make up a fake name for a fake character, and then be that character. Because apparently, the best way to be "real" and "authentic" is to be fake and pretend to be something you're not.

Yes! So much this! I am in performance, and I teach performance, and I wish all teachers/judges would strike "real" and "authentic" from their vocabulary. No one cares about whether something is real/authentic! They care about whether it FEELS real/authentic. and there are techniques to address that. Plenty of real personalities can read to other people as inauthentic because art is an illusion.

I agreed with the judges techniques that Simone needed to learn performance techniques. But that's different from saying she needed to be real. She probably needed the opposite of that, actually. She needed to learn that you don't HAVE to be your real emotional expression in performance--that sometimes, it's better not to be. Instead, you need to learn strategies for evoking emotional expressions that aren't exactly real. I've taught students really mechanic drills (like you will smile 3 times during this and you will make eye contact with me here and here) and with the proper coaching, it ends up feeling more real than their actual real. Also, there are tools for evoking "real" sensations by substituting associations with other events (i.e. I can make myself seem really sad by focusing on memories of when I was sad... the emotion may be "real" in a sense, but it's not really connected to whatever I'm doing. That's  the most useful acting technique that I've ever been taught.)