S05.E11: Dyatkovo

[qtpye]

This season has been disappointing and a little ridiculous.  Really, a kid from the local school paper is just wondering around the FBI with Stan?  In my work, if anyone comes to visit for one second, I have to clear it with security, who will then issue the person a badge.  Even if it is cleared, there are many places they would never have access.

It seems the luxury of having an extra season has really killed the writing on this show.

As much as I like Oleg, the Russia scenes are awful.  You could fast forward through every one of Oleg's scenes this season and actually have much stronger episodes.  Sorry...we get it...the Soviet Union is corrupt, the system is not working, and will fall in a handful of years.  I really think all the critics are still praising the show, because they think...It's the Americans, it has to be good.  I still will stick it out to the end, but really, no more Russian scenes about groceries.

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, whiporee said:

I'm glad to see Pat Buchanan got a gig writing TV, because that was about as "the USSR was monstrous" as one could find. Corruption in Moscow, using bio weapons, plotting to kill people without a lot of evidence and then killing people placed in impossible situations for behaving impossibly. And their husband because they happened to be there, too. 

Way too many logistical problems tonight. I mentioned this early in the year, but because they knew the end was coming but not here this year, the showrunners feel they have the luxury of time and they are using it to the viewers' detriment. Because, honestly, this episode was just dumb. There's no way the Center would reveal to its spies they delivered a bio weapon, and there's NO WAY even if they did, Claudia would tell P&E that. There's no way Henry's hanging around the FBI taking notes on that floor. There's no way the Center risks P&E to take out this woman. There's no way the Nazis used her to execute people. There's no way she was able to keep her calm and stick to her story as long as she did, and then only confess when her husband was already in danger -- if she was going to tell the truth to save him, she would have done it before he came home. The only thing that saves him once he's in the house is that if P&E believe she's not the person they accuse her of being. And then the Moscow scenes that just lead to nothing except what we already knew -- the USSR was corrupt and bad and everyone did what they had to do.

Which ties back into the central issue. Elizabeth Jennings is a stone killer. She's a murderer. Natalie wasn't collateral damage -- she and her husband were executed for crimes committed, without the benefit of trial or circumstances. This wasn't a moral quandary about what to do or serving the greater good -- this was killing for revenge and on orders. How in the world are we supposed to do anything from this point on other than hope she gets a bullet in the head, too? 

But I did have an idea -- what if the mail robot ends up being the Jenning's reveal?  Henry didn't mention it in his paper or to his parents, then Phillip says something to Stan about it and the whole thing unravels because how would he know unless he was a spy. It would be more than fitting that after all it's been through, the mail robot ends up saving the day.

Thanks for reminding me of how throughly idiotic it was that the Centre would tell Claudia, and Claudia would tell the P&E, that the virus had been weaponized, and used in Afghanistan. Was there any end to the idiocies which were piled up in one hour last night? 

[benteen]

28 minutes ago, SheTV said:

My thoughts exactly.  And in addition, if P&E, who are very obviously not at the top of their game right now, forgot to or didn't take the time to sweep the room for evidence, the authorities will have E's fingerprints, as she touched both the pitcher and the glass when Natalie/Anna asked for water.  I know that's a really lame old school tv/movie trope, but it's something I noticed.

Yes!  I thought about this yesterday when they entered the home and then touched the pitcher.  I will say this is a problem on television not exclusive to The Americans.  Too many shows have spies, agents or hired guns entering locations without gloves.  They'd be leaving fingerprints everywhere and it drives me crazy.

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, chocolatine said:

10 hours ago, jjj said:

But like Betty a few seasons ago, once she had seen them and talked to them, she was a goner. 

 

She hadn't seen them, actually. Betty saw Elizabeth without disguise. Philip and Elizabeth were in disguise at Natalie's house.

4 hours ago, Ina123 said:

BTW, was the interrogation of a mentally ill person by the KGB guy possibly Misha?

It didn't have to be. There were plenty of people like him, I think was the idea.

4 hours ago, JFParnell said:

And I haven't forgotten .. didn't she crush some dude beneath a car in an earlier season while making an escape? (the details are fuzzy, but E did not spend much time agonizing over that one ...)

She killed a guy so that his job would be free for her own person.

3 hours ago, BetyBee said:

When Philip winced when Henry closed the door, then went to spend time with his faux son, I wanted to punch him.  You did this, P&E!  You ignored your real life son and left him alone and he was resourceful enough to m

Yes, because a 13-year-old kid listening to his Walkman in his room and uninterested in his parents isn't normal development at all. Henry's life is a tragedy that he's bravely overcome by setting his sights on elite private school where his girlfriend is going. He could not be taking anything for granted at all.

Yeah, I get that his father's work schedule (and actual DEPRESSION) has affected their relationship Henry's also just all about Henry and always has been. 

2 hours ago, whiporee said:

There's no way the Center would reveal to its spies they delivered a bio weapon, and there's NO WAY even if they did, Claudia would tell P&E that.

Yeah, I didn't get what that was about. It seemed like the only reason to tell them was that Claudia thought they would like this news...and why would she think that given what they said? Did she make this stuff up thinking they would like it? Because there's certainly no reason the government would think they had a right to know it. I can not figure out why anybody even wanted to throw that in.

2 hours ago, whiporee said:

But I did have an idea -- what if the mail robot ends up being the Jenning's reveal?  Henry didn't mention it in his paper or to his parents, then Phillip says something to Stan about it and the whole thing unravels because how would he know unless he was a spy.

Why would he mention it to Stan when Henry said nothing about it? He's managed to keep his mouth shut about it so far.

1 hour ago, SheTV said:

My thoughts exactly.  And in addition, if P&E, who are very obviously not at the top of their game right now, forgot to or didn't take the time to sweep the room for evidence, the authorities will have E's fingerprints, as she touched both the pitcher and the glass when Natalie/Anna asked for water.  I know that's a really lame old school tv/movie trope, but it's something I noticed.

I would think we could assume they did that since we didn't see them leave. That seems to be the way they usually do it, though I agree it seems just as easy to have them wear gloves.

56 minutes ago, Bannon said:

They would have had too much contempt for a 16 year old Russian girl to hand her a rifle and conscript her into an execution squad for common Russian soldiers, who were seen as slave labor with v

Were we supposed to assume that Claudia had greatly exaggerated what she did? Because the only way it made sense to me were if a bunch of soldiers just on their own were amused by making her do it, and that the reason she got to Germany was also down to some soldier doing something on a whim or some other way and Claudia wasn't necessarily correct in how she got to Germany.

41 minutes ago, Bannon said:

So they have P&E  keep Miss Nazi Collabotator with Venereal Disease of 1942 in the house, so the husband, like so, so, many of P&E's murder victims, can show up in time to be murdered.

LOL! Although I have to say I greatly disagree with the recapper about how this reminded them of the "better" episode with the Mail Robot lady. I still find that episode far worse in how ridiculously contrived that whole thing was. At least this lady didn't have a set of lines to make it clear that her life exactly paralleled all the things that mattered to Elizabeth.

It is nice that Stan, even after the FBI's been deeply penetrated by the KGB twice, is totally fine with bringing a kid in to wander around. A kid that nobody seemed to know or have any knowledge of his visit. Did the boss even know he was there? Stan hasn't exactly been their best agent when it comes to security. 

As ever the thing that intrigued me most in the episode was Philip's flashbacks which I keep holding out hope will lead to something. Or is the whole mystery just that his father was a prison guard? Because we had the plane again--first flashback the first thing we saw was little Philip playing with a plane I assume his father made for him out of sticks, here he was flying around the room playing with his father. Is it just that he's pretending to be a pilot as Brad and when he was 6 he wanted to fly planes? Did his father just drop dead of natural causes when he was 6 so that Philip could be plausibly too young to never have found out what he did? And wtf with that brother? What happened to him? 

Speaking of which, this is from another ep but also refers to the father...it's weird that Philip told Tuan that before his father died they struggled for food. Wouldn't they obviously have *more* trouble getting food when dad was dead? That was standard for everyone else, that the rare families with fathers had more, and Philip's father had a job. What happened after he died?

I have to say, it does seem like this season the writers seem to have some very different ideas than I do about where the meat of the story is. I feel like in other seasons we would have had a much stronger exploration of, say, the Elizabeth/Tuan/Philip relationship so that we'd care about it and it would illuminate the two of them. Alexei and Evgenia would serve a similar purpose, maybe. The honeypots could still be there, but they'd feel like they were just there to show that they'd rather be with each other (with maybe a little bit of Elizabeth not being able to hate her guy that much). Instead it really does feel like wandering around. Even the theme of "The Soviet characters facing the truth of their history and their system" doesn't seem very clearly done.

I mean, the idea of a Nazi collaborator makes sense in that WWII was *the* wound they've have grown up in the shadow of and Elizabeth in particular would see that enemy as making her heroic. But the story they came up with for it seemed needlessly melodramatic and artificial. It's not like collaborators weren't a familiar story in WWII all over. Why did the 16-year-old girl need to be on a firing squad? Why not just have her sleeping with the enemy for food or whatever? Or just have fingered somebody?

Edited May 17, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Milburn Stone]

2 hours ago, whiporee said:

Elizabeth Jennings is a stone killer. She's a murderer. Natalie wasn't collateral damage -- she and her husband were executed for crimes committed, without the benefit of trial or circumstances. This wasn't a moral quandary about what to do or serving the greater good -- this was killing for revenge and on orders.

Although you didn't like the episode, the "on orders" part was the most interesting thing about it to me. When Elizabeth kills Natalie, she's really only doing it for one reason--because the Centre told her to. Which makes her exactly like Natalie, who killed because the Nazis told her to. Both have been psychologically coerced to murder coldly. In the car ride home, Elizabeth, because of the example of Natalie, begins to realize that for the first time.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Milburn Stone

[AGuyToo]

This woman was probably the inspiration for Natalie.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonina_Makarova

She was older (20 not 16) and the circumstances of her first involvement with the Nazis were different, but many of the details match: she was used as an executioner of Russian POWs (1500!), she caught a venereal disease from the Germans that was treated at a hospital, she lived in cognito for many years, and she was eventually tracked down and killed by the KGB.

Edited May 17, 2017 by AGuyToo
added details

[Bannon]

21 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

She hadn't seen them, actually. Betty saw Elizabeth without disguise. Philip and Elizabeth were in disguise at Natalie's house.

It didn't have to be. There were plenty of people like him, I think was the idea.

She killed a guy so that his job would be free for her own person.

Yes, because a 13-year-old kid listening to his Walkman in his room and uninterested in his parents isn't normal development at all. Henry's life is a tragedy that he's bravely overcome by setting his sights on elite private school where his girlfriend is going. He could not be taking anything for granted at all.

Yeah, I get that his father's work schedule (and actual DEPRESSION) has affected their relationship Henry's also just all about Henry and always has been. 

Yeah, I didn't get what that was about. It seemed like the only reason to tell them was that Claudia thought they would like this news...and why would she think that given what they said? Did she make this stuff up thinking they would like it? Because there's certainly no reason the government would think they had a right to know it. I can not figure out why anybody even wanted to throw that in.

Why would he mention it to Stan when Henry said nothing about it? He's managed to keep his mouth shut about it so far.

I would think we could assume they did that since we didn't see them leave. That seems to be the way they usually do it, though I agree it seems just as easy to have them wear gloves.

Were we supposed to assume that Claudia had greatly exaggerated what she did? Because the only way it made sense to me were if a bunch of soldiers just on their own were amused by making her do it, and that the reason she got to Germany was also down to some soldier doing something on a whim or some other way and Claudia wasn't necessarily correct in how she got to Germany.

LOL! Although I have to say I greatly disagree with the recapper about how this reminded them of the "better" episode with the Mail Robot lady. I still find that episode far worse in how ridiculously contrived that whole thing was. At least this lady didn't have a set of lines to make it clear that her life exactly paralleled all the things that mattered to Elizabeth.

It is nice that Stan, even after the FBI's been deeply penetrated by the KGB twice, is totally fine with bringing a kid in to wander around. A kid that nobody seemed to know or have any knowledge of his visit. Did the boss even know he was there? Stan hasn't exactly been their best agent when it comes to security. 

As ever the thing that intrigued me most in the episode was Philip's flashbacks which I keep holding out hope will lead to something. Or is the whole mystery just that his father was a prison guard? Because we had the plane again--first flashback the first thing we saw was little Philip playing with a plane I assume his father made for him out of sticks, here he was flying around the room playing with his father. Is it just that he's pretending to be a pilot as Brad and when he was 6 he wanted to fly planes? Did his father just drop dead of natural causes when he was 6 so that Philip could be plausibly too young to never have found out what he did? And wtf with that brother? What happened to him? 

Speaking of which, this is from another ep but also refers to the father...it's weird that Philip told Tuan that before his father died they struggled for food. Wouldn't they obviously have *more* trouble getting food when dad was dead? That was standard for everyone else, that the rare families with fathers had more, and Philip's father had a job. What happened after he died?

I have to say, it does seem like this season the writers seem to have some very different ideas than I do about where the meat of the story is. I feel like in other seasons we would have had a much stronger exploration of, say, the Elizabeth/Tuan/Philip relationship so that we'd care about it and it would illuminate the two of them. Alexei and Evgenia would serve a similar purpose, maybe. The honeypots could still be there, but they'd feel like they were just there to show that they'd rather be with each other (with maybe a little bit of Elizabeth not being able to hate her guy that much). Instead it really does feel like wandering around. Even the theme of "The Soviet characters facing the truth of their history and their system" doesn't seem very clearly done.

I mean, the idea of a Nazi collaborator makes sense in that WWII was *the* wound they've have grown up in the shadow of and Elizabeth in particular would see that enemy as making her heroic. But the story they came up with for it seemed needlessly melodramatic and artificial. It's not like collaborators weren't a familiar story in WWII all over. Why did the 16-year-old girl need to be on a firing squad? Why not just have her sleeping with the enemy for food or whatever? Or just have fingered somebody?

They couldn't have the 16 year old girl be merely a run of the mill sexual collaborator, because using two extremely valuable assets to risk an op, targeting a 58 year old woman in 1984, because she had sex with Nazis in 1942, would be too ridiculous for even these writers. So they have to juice it up, with all manner of contrived nonsense. At this point, they are just writing characters and events stupid, so as to make the plot go where they want it to. Cue the shark.   

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Bannon said:

They couldn't have the 16 year old girl be merely a run of the mill sexual collaborator, because using two extremely valuable assets to risk an op, targeting a 58 year old woman in 1984, because she had sex with Nazis in 1942, would be too ridiculous for even these writers. So they have to juice it up, with all manner of contrived nonsense. At this point, they are just writing characters and events stupid, so as to make the plot go where they want it to. Cue the shark.   

Well, really, that makes it a bad idea to make her 16 at all, because she was a minor. The link in the thread above is pretty great as a real-life basis for this character, but that woman seemed to have been a soldier who got separated from her unit. She was still young, but not Paige's age. I think the backstory of that woman would have worked better, and she still could have, all these years later, had a change of heart and wanted to put that past behind her. And they also still could have given her a situation where she was doing what she felt she had to do to survive rather than just killing Soviets for fun, so she could still be sympathetic.

[jjj]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

This season has been disappointing and a little ridiculous. [snip]

It seems the luxury of having an extra season has really killed the writing on this show.

This.  Remember, they announced the final season at the same time they said there would be two more seasons, and the showrunners said that they had plotted out the show to the end.  Now, I am thinking that they plotted out the *final* season, then said, "so, how do we fill the next-to-last season?"  And this is the result -- a season of filler that will set up the final season in the last episode of this season.  I am still counting on a great final season.  But they just should have gone to that without this meandering set of episodes.  I am sure these various threads of plots will connect in the next week or two, but they could have gotten there much more quickly. 

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, jjj said:

But they just should have gone to that without this meandering set of episodes.  I am sure these various threads of plots will connect in the next week or two, but they could have gotten there much more quickly. 

That's the thing--even if they're holding off on big plot steps I'm confused that they seem to have actually backed off meaty character stuff. The stuff that's supposed to be that isn't usually very satisfying. I think that's one of the many reasons I get so frustrated with Philip's flashbacks. In the past they've had seasons devoted to Elizabeth wrestling with some issue from her past with her mother and it was just clearer where it was going. Here it seems like they keep dropping in these tiny hints that aren't put in the context of character stuff.

[Bannon]

13 minutes ago, AGuyToo said:

This woman was probably the inspiration for Natalie.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonina_Makarova

She was older (20 not 16) and the circumstances of her first involvement with the Nazis were different, but some of the details match.

The key differences, besides age, was that she was a member of the Red Army, and trained in the use of weapons, prior to encountering Nazis,and she was recruited into the executions by local Russian authorities, and she wasn't sent back to Germany for her medical treatment.  I suppose the writers had to get their collborator to the United States,  hence the departure from reality.

[Eulipian 5k]

In spite of not being Jewish or Russian, I fully understand why they would give no quarter to Nazis or their collaborators whether 50, 60, or a 100 years old. P & E have killed people in furtherance of their missions, (what today we call "collateral damage"); the Nazi's sought you out & came to your house, because of who you were, to haul you and your children off to be gassed. Sorry, no quarter.

Also the Nazi couple were together for 25 or more years, it's easy to assume the husband must have known who his wife was and was harboring a Nazi.

[Bannon]

28 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Well, really, that makes it a bad idea to make her 16 at all, because she was a minor. The link in the thread above is pretty great as a real-life basis for this character, but that woman seemed to have been a soldier who got separated from her unit. She was still young, but not Paige's age. I think the backstory of that woman would have worked better, and she still could have, all these years later, had a change of heart and wanted to put that past behind her. And they also still could have given her a situation where she was doing what she felt she had to do to survive rather than just killing Soviets for fun, so she could still be sympathetic.

Gosh, if they had made their collaborator closely adhere to that actual example provided, and had made her motivation to murder Soviets be that they were A) party members (which may have well been mostly the case), and B)the party had persecuted her family horribly in the 1930s, that might have been interesting, if they unspooled it skillfully.  They could have used this arc for most of the season, instead of the wheat nonsense. Instead, they rush through this WWII arc in one episode.

[jjj]

9 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Gosh, if they had made their collaborator closely adhere to that actual example provided, and had made her motivation to murder Soviets be that they were A) party members (which may have well been mostly the case), and B)the party had persecuted her family horribly in the 1930s, that might have been interesting, if they unspooled it skillfully.  They could have used this arc for most of the season, instead of the wheat nonsense. Instead, they rush through this WWII arc in one episode.

Completely agree -- this could have been much more compelling if it had been spread over several episodes, or even the entire season, as you note.  Is she or is she not the former collaborator?  And she could have been located closer to D.C. in that case.  Then, that final confrontation would have been much more devastating, because we would have known the character Natalie over time, instead of being like the one previously unseen Star Trek crew member who is transported into an episode purely to be the sacrificial victim.  (No one cares what happened to them, they were just plot points.) 

Edited May 17, 2017 by jjj

[Bannon]

19 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

In spite of not being Jewish or Russian, I fully understand why they would give no quarter to Nazis or their collaborators whether 50, 60, or a 100 years old. P & E have killed people in furtherance of their missions, (what today we call "collateral damage"); the Nazi's sought you out & came to your house, because of who you were, to haul you and your children off to be gassed. Sorry, no quarter.

Also the Nazi couple were together for 25 or more years, it's easy to assume the husband must have known who his wife was and was harboring a Nazi.

To be fair, Stalinists did the same as Nazis, with regard to targeted killings, but they didn't use anything as quick as gas. For instance, millions of Ukrainians were deliberately subjected to the excruciating pain of death by starvation, because they were indentified as middle class farmers (kulaks).

[SusanSunflower]

fwiw, I don't see Elizabeth as a "true believer" so much as a child raised to be stoic (as I was) ... the ideology is what you fall back on when you need to rationalize, but her mother trained her well in "don't complain, don't explain" and don't look back.  It genuinely becomes habitual and existential -- "he who hesitates is lost."  Elizabeth seems to even feel some guilt about the comforts and normal parts of her life that give her the "luxury" of doubt, but those doubts are very very uncomfortable, even queasy making.  She (and Phillip) have a wall of bricks each one inscribed with some (now largely forgotten) dead person's face.  

The Soviet Union was under (quite real) ceaseless sabotage by "western powers" from it's inception, back circa WWI.  Look what real Americans in real time have rationalized based on 09/11.  Yes, that old truism of becoming what you abhor applies (or not). 

eta:  I read an article months ago that Stalin has become very popular and much admired leader (once again) for his actual accomplishments (despite being a despot responsible for a horrific number of deaths and ruined lives) ... like Mussolini, he did make the trains run.  In both instances, in fact the economy and society was crippled and "the trains" weren't running, adding to the social chaos and economic hardship. I'm not defending Stalin's abuse of power, etc. -- but his accomplishments (even in light of some of the disasters, his ambitions) were considerable.  Imagine the vision and determination (ruthlessness) required to try to transform Afghanistan (with its abysmal literacy rates and lack of infrastucture -- most of the country has no electricity, running water, etc) in a generation ... that's what Stalin was and is admired for. 

Edited May 17, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[Ina123]

1 hour ago, AGuyToo said:

This woman was probably the inspiration for Natalie.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonina_Makarova

She was older (20 not 16) and the circumstances of her first involvement with the Nazis were different, but many of the details match: she was used as an executioner of Russian POWs (1500!), she caught a venereal disease from the Germans that was treated at a hospital, she lived in cognito for many years, and she was eventually tracked down and killed by the KGB.

Geeze. I'd say that's close enough to use as the backstory for Natalie. I certainly can't fault the writers for the Natalie story.

[Eulipian 5k]

44 minutes ago, Bannon said:

To be fair, Stalinists did the same as Nazis, with regard to targeted killings, but they didn't use anything as quick as gas. For instance, millions of Ukrainians were deliberately subjected to the excruciating pain of death by starvation, because they were indentified as middle class farmers (kulaks).

War is hell, and class warfare just as much, people slaughter people for many reasons. But... in the mid 20th century humanity carved out a special circle in Hell for genocidal killers, and chemical warfare  users. Both of which was perfectly acceptable throughout human and technological history. The Nazis win first prize in that competition for what they did, not who they were by birth, or religion. In late 20th century Africa, Truth Commissions were established to allow forgiveness of genocide in Rwanda etc, but WW2 Nazis get no such absolution. Go Liz & Claudia

[sistermagpie]

I was thinking of that Stan and Henry conversation and it is kind of interesting the way they had Stan essentially lay out the idea (one that's hit on so often in the series) of the intimacy of trust. He said he wasn't one of the agents who trusted his wife--with the obviously implication that this was why he didn't have a wife. He also admitted that he didn't trust Matthew either. Nor did he trust Henry, obviously. 

That's the main difference between Paige and Henry in the Jennings' house. Paige is crushed under the burden of the secrets, but she is trusted to a great degree and because of that she actually knows her parents. (Philip's reference to Paige *wanting* them to see those pages in the diary speaks to this as well--she trusts them enough to want them to understand what she read, just as she shares a lot of her fears with them.) Henry is free of the burden, but mostly because he's essentially not trusted. 

But he's not trusted by Stan either. They have pleasant conversations, there are things Henry says to Stan he doesn't say to his parents, he treats his parents in a more familiar way, letting them see sides of him he'd hide with Stan. 

I feel like there's something going on with Philip's reaction to the boarding school that I can't put my finger on yet, with everyone in the family seeing it as a no-brainer that this is a good thing except Philip who seems to not like it but not really be able to make a case for why it would be bad. But Philip did have that thing this season of figuring out his father wasn't who he thought he was and being sad at essentially feeling that his own parents, while not intentionally lying to him about being Russian spies, were strangers that he couldn't ever really know.

Edited May 17, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

War is hell, and class warfare just as much, people slaughter people for many reasons. But... in the mid 20th century humanity carved out a special circle in Hell for genocidal killers, and chemical warfare  users. Both of which was perfectly acceptable throughout human and technological history. The Nazis win first prize in that competition for what they did, not who they were by birth, or religion. In late 20th century Africa, Truth Commissions were established to allow forgiveness of genocide in Rwanda etc, but WW2 Nazis get no such absolution. Go Liz & Claudia

How were the Stalinists in 2nd place to the Nazis? Certainly not in the number of murder victims, nor the agony in which the victims suffered. I guess I don't understand your point.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

The Americans Teaches A Massachusetts Mom A Tough Lesson About The Limits Of Personal Reinvention

Elsewhere, Oleg's food investigation inches forward, and one of your faves comes back for a cameo.

[Eulipian 5k]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

How were the Stalinists in 2nd place to the Nazis? Certainly not in the number of murder victims, nor the agony in which the victims suffered. I guess I don't understand your point.

Don't want to hijack the Forum, I was talking about the special place of Nazis (this episode) not Stalinists or the people who Napalmed (DOW chemical warfare) Tuan's villages or family. That is War. Genocide is a whole different beast.

[Bannon]

12 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

Geeze. I'd say that's close enough to use as the backstory for Natalie. I certainly can't fault the writers for the Natalie story.

The details matter, as does the speed in which the story unspools. If Natalie had been a Red Army nurse trained in weapons, who went over to the other side, and they had taken several episodes to flesh this out (perhaps getting rid of The Story of Wheat), and had figured out a more plausible way that she ended up in the United States (having more time to tell the story), with more time to portray her motivations, that could have been compelling.

[Erin9]

6 hours ago, BetyBee said:

When Philip winced when Henry closed the door, then went to spend time with his faux son, I wanted to punch him.  You did this, P&E!  You ignored your real life son and left him alone and he was resourceful enough to make a life for himself.  Too bad, so sad.  Stan may well get him.  What hold do you have on him?  None.  He certainly will not want to go "home" to Mother Russia.  

P&E could see a bit of themselves in Natalie and John, I think.  By the time it was all over anyway  They've done awful things too and others would see them as the enemy.  Suppose they retire and stay in America.  Someone could come for them one day in much the same way.  

I really don't think they just out and out ignored Henry. Paige has gotten more attention because she pushed for it, but Henry did not. He didn't want it as much as she did. They haven't known everything that's up with him, but they're not clueless. They do care; that's obvious imo. 

He has always, always been the type to do his own thing. There have been many scenes where you see him pointedly playing games rather than interacting with the people in the room. He's never had much interest in his parents. He doesn't think they're interesting. He wants their attention when he wants it, how he wants it....and that's it. 

I really don't get why some think Stan is a surrogate father for him or that he would make a good one. He doesn't parent Henry. He's the guy with a cool job who does not parent or have expectations. He's buddies with him. And- as he just said- he doesn't trust anyone, which has wrecked the relationships with his former wife and son. Yeah. Stan is great parent material. Ask Matthew. 

I have a lot of empathy for P and E. I wouldn't spend my time on this show if I didn't. I feel for them. They made choices they had no way of fully understanding at 17, and their lives are a mess. The only real positive in their lives right now is that they have each other. It's sad imo. And I just don't feel terribly judgmental of them. Anymore than I would have of Natalia last night. She was used and abused. So were they, just in different ways. 

The thing about killing the couple is....if Elizabeth hadn't done it, P and E would have been in serious trouble.....and someone else would have been dispatched to do it anyway. It's horrible and tragic. And I'm glad they're both over spying now. I think this woman being the last straw was handled well. 

Where things go for the last 12 episodes should be very interesting. One thing I hope to see is Henry's relationship with his parents shifting in a positive manner just a little bit. And Paige getting out of her whiny depression. I'd like to see this family....be a family. 

Edited May 17, 2017 by Erin9

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Don't want to hijack the Forum, I was talking about the special place of Nazis (this episode) not Stalinists or the people who Napalmed (DOW chemical warfare) Tuan's villages or family. That is War. Genocide is a whole different beast.

It still isn't clear to me what you are saying, but I will take it to the politics in the 80s thread.

[Erin9]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

That's the thing--even if they're holding off on big plot steps I'm confused that they seem to have actually backed off meaty character stuff. The stuff that's supposed to be that isn't usually very satisfying. I think that's one of the many reasons I get so frustrated with Philip's flashbacks. In the past they've had seasons devoted to Elizabeth wrestling with some issue from her past with her mother and it was just clearer where it was going. Here it seems like they keep dropping in these tiny hints that aren't put in the context of character stuff.

While I think the reveal about Philip's  father's real job (and their extreme poverty) served an important purpose, I do think more should be done with it in terms of how Philip applies these lessons to his own life. I think the truth upset him, further disillusioned him and led to Paige meeting Gabriel, but I think more could and should be done with it. 

And why why why make such a point of his father dying young if nothing is ever going to be said about how it happened?? Why give him a brother that we hear nothing else about? And what happened to his mom? I think the writers need to dig into this....now. We've been patient, and there is limited time. 

Maybe they're going somewhere with the plane flashback, but it sure isn't clear yet. And it is frustrating. 

[MisterBluxom]

3 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Although you didn't like the episode, the "on orders" part was the most interesting thing about it to me. When Elizabeth kills Natalie, she's really only doing it for one reason--because the Centre told her to. Which makes her exactly like Natalie, who killed because the Nazis told her to. Both have been psychologically coerced to murder coldly. In the car ride home, Elizabeth, because of the example of Natalie, begins to realize that for the first time.

Excellent observation!

[sistermagpie]

17 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

And why why why make such a point of his father dying young if nothing is ever going to be said about how it happened?? Why give him a brother that we hear nothing else about? And what happened to his mom? I think the writers need to dig into this....now. We've been patient, and there is limited time. 

 

Right, that's what it seems like. Like there's this obvious mystery there for us, the viewers. If it's not supposed to be a mystery they should just go ahead and give us the context.

And yet I can't help but feel that it is being withheld for a reason. I can see things that it connects to, like Henry going to boarding school. And details like an actual brother just aren't something you can drop in and ignore when we've known since S1 that Elizabeth was in actual contact with her mother all those years. Almost all Philip's memories are silent, like snatches of things he barely remembers. Elizabeth's flashbacks were always chosen to make an obvious point about her and whatever was going on with her at the time.

The first time Philip had a reference to his childhood and it was pushed aside for another entire season it turned out he murdered someone.

35 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I really don't get why some think Stan is a surrogate father for him or that he would make a good one. He doesn't parent Henry. He's the guy with a cool job who does not parent or have expectations. He's buddies with him. And- as he just said- he doesn't trust anyone, which has wrecked the relationships with his former wife and son. Yeah. Stan is great parent material. Ask Matthew. 

 

Yeah, there always seems to be a rush to name some other adult the person's "real" parent and that always seems exactly *not* the way it works in real life. Stan's  the definition of the person who doesn't have to parent. There was the same feeling about Pastor Tim and his wife when Pastor Tim was Paige's youth pastor.  Stan's practically admitted that he likes Henry because he doesn't bring any of the baggage he has with his actual son. He  gets to enjoy the nice side of having a kid who likes you without any of the downside of responsibility or conflict. 

Going through the series there really does seem like a lot of moments of Henry being uninterested in his parents. It's not that he doesn't love them, but he seems to feel like he's had them figured out all this time and has more interest in parents who are more exotic and sexier. Little lines like when he snarkily asks Elizabeth, "You have friends?" or rolling his eyes at Philip and saying "I'm not really interested in the travel agency, Dad," make it seem to me that he just sees them as a home base. He's the one with secret grand plans who's destined for greater things. It's possible that if we had more scenes with Henry and his friends it would be almost comical how dismissively he saw them.

1 minute ago, icemiser69 said:

Watching E & P drop so many bodies is really getting to

I'm totally rooting for them, but I really think the show made a big mistake having them drop so many bodies. It should be a big deal when they have to kill someone. Instead not only are they sometimes used as assassins but they're put in way too many situations where they bump into somebody and have to kill them. There's a point where it's like...look, if you were better at your job you wouldn't be so depressed. The Centre didn't tell you to kill most of these people.

[qtpye]

52 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

I feel like there's something going on with Philip's reaction to the boarding school that I can't put my finger on yet, with everyone in the family seeing it as a no-brainer that this is a good thing except Philip who seems to not like it but not really be able to make a case for why it would be bad. But Philip did have that thing this season of figuring out his father wasn't who he thought he was and being sad at essentially feeling that his own parents, while not intentionally lying to him about being Russian spies, were strangers that he couldn't ever really know.

 

23 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

While I think the reveal about Philip's  father's real job (and their extreme poverty) served an important purpose, I do think more should be done with it in terms of how Philip applies these lessons to his own life. I think the truth upset him, further disillusioned him and led to Paige meeting Gabriel, but I think more could and should be done with it. 

And why why why make such a point of his father dying young if nothing is ever going to be said about how it happened?? Why give him a brother that we hear nothing else about? And what happened to his mom? I think the writers need to dig into this....now. We've been patient, and there is limited time. 

Maybe they're going somewhere with the plane flashback, but it sure isn't clear yet. And it is frustrating. 

To Phillip Henry has a life, that he could never have even dreamed about, growing up in extreme poverty.  He is realizing that he never knew his father and never will.  It saddens him to realize the "life" has caused a rift between him and Henry to the point of Henry wanting to go to a fancy boarding school and live away from his parents.  Yes, Henry is a typical teenager, but they would have definitely been closer, if Phillip did not have to skirt off every couple of days to complete a mission.

[benteen]

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

The key differences, besides age, was that she was a member of the Red Army, and trained in the use of weapons, prior to encountering Nazis,and she was recruited into the executions by local Russian authorities, and she wasn't sent back to Germany for her medical treatment.  I suppose the writers had to get their collborator to the United States,  hence the departure from reality.

That's splitting hairs.  The character on the show was close enough to this woman.

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, qtpye said:

To Phillip Henry has a life, that he could never have even dreamed about, growing up in extreme poverty.  He is realizing that he never knew his father and never will.  It saddens him to realize the "life" has caused a rift between him and Henry to the point of Henry wanting to go to a fancy boarding school and live away from his parents.  Yes, Henry is a typical teenager, but they would have definitely been closer, if Phillip did not have to skirt off every couple of days to complete a mission.

But that's not much of a story. I mean, I don't think Philip's job is the main reason for Henry wanting to go to the boarding school. That comes from Chris and her father and Henry thinking it's cool. He could easily have wanted the same thing if Philip didn't take so many business trips.

Even if the idea only is that Philip is kind of sad that Henry wants to leave surely that would be dramatized in some way. What's he going to do about it?

[benteen]

Stan's biggest problem continues to be that for a counter-intelligence agent, he reveals a LOT of information to just about everyone around him.

[Bannon]

Just now, benteen said:

That's splitting hairs.  The character on the show was close enough to this woman.

I disagree very much that a 16 year old girl living in a village is much, at all, like a 20 or 21 year old woman, member of the Red Army, trained in weapons.

1 minute ago, benteen said:

Stan's biggest problem continues to be that for a counter-intelligence agent, he reveals a LOT of information to just about everyone around him.

He's pretty frequently been written as a dope, as opposed to a savvy operator who survived for years undercover in the Aryan Brotherhood. It's always been a problem.

[qtpye]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But that's not much of a story. I mean, I don't think Philip's job is the main reason for Henry wanting to go to the boarding school. That comes from Chris and her father and Henry thinking it's cool. He could easily have wanted the same thing if Philip didn't take so many business trips.

Even if the idea only is that Philip is kind of sad that Henry wants to leave surely that would be dramatized in some way. What's he going to do about it?

It really is not much of a story.  In fact, it is a pretty common emotion for all parents to feel when their kids become teenagers and just do not want to hang out with Mom and Dad so much.

 

3 minutes ago, benteen said:

Stan's biggest problem continues to be that for a counter-intelligence agent, he reveals a LOT of information to just about everyone around him.

It was hilarious to me how he talks about not trusting people.  Stan is a bit of a clueless blabbermouth.  I think he is using his job as an excuse for messing up his marriage.

[benteen]

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I disagree very much that a 16 year old girl living in a village is much, at all, like a 20 or 21 year old woman, member of the Red Army, trained in weapons.

It's still splitting hairs.  The writers clearly based her character on an actual person.  There's plenty to criticize with the writing (like the inexplicable decision to kill her and her husband in their own home and maybe she should have been a member of the Red Army) but the writers didn't pull this storyline out of their assess.

[DaveL723]

While I can certainly understand why the Centre would want to track down a collaborator/war criminal, having her assassinated like they did would serve no  real purpose politically or ideologically.  She would simply be the victim of some random home invasion murder that would have no connection to her past.  It would make more sense to me for the Centre to have P&E snatch her and  put her on trial in the USSR (like Israel did with Eichmann).  That provides them with a moral justification for executing her and lets her serve as example of what happens to collaborators and war criminals.  Alternatively, they could expose her in the US and get the US government to deport her; this has happened to war criminals found living years later in the States, although not sure if any were sent back to Russia.

In any event, it hardly seems worth risking two valuable agents on this.  A lot could go wrong even on a simple hit like this.

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, benteen said:

It's still splitting hairs.  The writers clearly based her character on an actual person.  There's plenty to criticize with the writing (like the inexplicable decision to kill her and her husband in their own home and maybe she should have been a member of the Red Army) but the writers didn't pull this storyline out of their assess.

They are both females living in Russia in 1942. That's about it. We aren't going to agree. That's o.k..

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, DaveL723 said:

While I can certainly understand why the Centre would want to track down a collaborator/war criminal, having her assassinated like they did would serve no  real purpose politically or ideologically.  She would simply be the victim of some random home invasion murder that would have no connection to her past.  It would make more sense to me for the Centre to have P&E snatch her and  put her on trial in the USSR (like Israel did with Eichmann).  That provides them with a moral justification for executing her and lets her serve as example of what happens to collaborators and war criminals.  Alternatively, they could expose her in the US and get the US government to deport her; this has happened to war criminals found living years later in the States, although not sure if any were sent back to Russia.

In any event, it hardly seems worth risking two valuable agents on this.  A lot could go wrong even on a simple hit like this.

Yep, the United States would deport war criminals to the Soviet Union.

http://articles.latimes.com/1987-07-03/news/mn-1044_1_war-criminal

The whole thing just doesn't make any sense.

[MyBad]

On 5/16/2017 at 10:36 PM, MissBluxom said:

I looked up Dyatkovo (the title of this episode) and it's the name of a city. It appears to be near the western border of Russia. But the maps were very difficult for me to read for some reason.  Here is a link to a map from Wikipedia. See if you can identify the country to the West. I think it may be Poland. I wonder why the episode would be titled the name of a city. The only sub-plot going on in Russia is Oleg.

Oh wait. Maybe this has something to do with Philip's son who came to America?  I have no idea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyatkovo

I can't help you with the title, but this map shows the contemporary location of Dyatkovo in the Russian Federation. The country immediately to the west is Belarus. Of course, in the time frame of the show, Belarus (Byelorussia), Ukraine and the three Baltic nations were all SFSR constituent republics within the USSR.

Edited May 18, 2017 by MyBad

[tennisgurl]

Mail Robot! The hero we deserve has returned! *waves enthusiastically*

That ending was so brutal even Elizabeth was like "I'm officially feeling sick, I'm out". And this is the woman who dropped a car on a guy! Philip probably would have told the Center to kindly fuck off ages ago if he wasn't in love with Elizabeth, but now its looking like Elizabeth might be ready to join him. Honestly, its like the Center wants them to defect.

Awww, Williams real name was Vitaly!

Thanks @PinkRibbons for the translation of the song Philip was listening to/thinking of! I was just going to try looking it up. Had no idea what it was saying, but it sounded so sad and wistful I wanted to know what it was about. The lyrics make it an even more appropriate song choice.

I'm really in two minds on the Natalie ending. On the one hand, I don't see Nazis on the Eastern Front spending their time and resources getting teenaged Russian girls drunk so they can join their firing squad, unless they wanted her around as a sort of sex slave/servant as well. Granted, I can maybe see Nazis killing lots of civilians or POWs due to lack of resources to deal with them, to set an example, or just because they're assholes (because, you know, Nazis), but the whole story seems strange. On the other hand, the woman's performance was so heartbreaking, and the love between her and her husband was so palatable that I didn't even care, because I was so into the story. It also tied in with the greater plot of the show, that things aren't black and white, and that people do awful things due to circumstances they may or may not be in control of, not because they're awful people. This woman did technically collaborate, but she was being used and abused and was just trying to survive, just like P & E, to an extent.

Edited May 17, 2017 by tennisgurl

[sugarbaker design]

40 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I'm totally rooting for them, but I really think the show made a big mistake having them drop so many bodies.

Isn't that part of what the show is about?  Having rootable characters committing indefensible acts?  I watch this show with a friend, meaning we watch separately but then talk about it afterwards.  He loves P&E, he roots for them, he hopes they get a happy ending.  I, on the other hand, wish them nothing but a miserable existence, I don't forget the innocent people they murdered.  The producers/writers were looking for and achieving moral ambiguity.

And with this particular episode, I believe E shot the husband first so the alleged Nazi collaborator would suffer in her final seconds.

[MisterBluxom]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

Random stuff:

That picture looked more like Jay Leno than the woman that Elizabeth shot.

After Elizabeth shot the couple, I was hoping that Philip would put an end to Elizabeth and himself.

I really can't watch much more of this.  Watching E & P drop so many bodies is really getting to me. 

The writing has gotten so bad for this show, that I fully expect by series end that these two assholes will ride off into the sunset without a care in the world.  I hope I am wrong about that.

Talking about predictions.

I would predict that when this show ends, one or two of the biggest plotlines (or call it one or two of the most important characters), will just end without any resolution of their open story lines. Specifically, I would guess that one or both of Stan and Paige's story lines will just come to an end and leave many viewers angry at the lack of any resolution.

As far as Paige goes, I anticipate there will be some kind of resolution to Pastor Dim. He may get some job in South America and fade off into the sunset. Or he may not. Either way, I expect that Paige's story will just end and we will never know how she decides to live her life.

As far as Stan goes, I anticipate a whole lot of nothing will happen. The show will be over one day and that will be the end. No resolution with Stan and his next door neighbors. Why do I feel this way? Because Stan's situation is very complicated but Stan is a very simple kind of man and after the way this season has unfolded, I just don't believe the writers are up to the task of making a sensible resolution to his story line.

But there are other characters that may well have no resolution at the end of the show - especially Henry. But I very much doubt that we won't see any kind of resolution to Henry's story.  There are so many possibilities. He could discover his parents' true identities and turn them in or he could possibly help them evade capture. He could also become a high-level mathematician and an expert code-breaker and go to work for the NSA or CIA.

All in all, I remember the fabulous finale to Six Feet Under and how those writers fullfilled their obligation to the audience. The placed all their characters into complicated story lines. But then they told the audience just how and why each of those subplots would end. It was terrific. I'm not at all confident we will see anything like that in this show. But there is always hope. Isn't there?

Edited May 17, 2017 by MissBluxom

[Umbelina]

9 hours ago, Doyounot said:

 

The song in the beginning gave me the feels even though i couldnt understand the words i knew a handful, enough to know it applied to Phillip and the show and wasnt just random sadness! Thank you PinkRibbons for the translation and also for the correct phrase she used i never understood why they dont just write that like we wouldnt understand what she meant if they didnt use an english phrase that is i guess close.

They've talked about this several times in the podcasts and it's pretty interesting and complicated.  IIRC, the writers write in English, then two different Russian translators try to put their English words into colloquial and casual Russian that is close to the the intent, without being vulgar or more "2017" than "1984."  It's a complicated process, and they all obviously really try to get it right.

9 hours ago, Ina123 said:

BTW, was the interrogation of a mentally ill person by the KGB guy possibly Misha?

Well, that or we just wasted a ton of time for shits and giggles on Misha's story early.  This whole season has been endless dangling plots.  As someone else said, it could also be relevant because Misha is in the same boat as whomever this guy was.

5 hours ago, Novel8 said:

Personally, i don't care for the Russian scenes. What does it have to do with the main plot? At the beginning I thought it would have something to do with it, but now its rambling off in different directions.

I like them, bu tit's not just those scenes that never really lead anywhere satisfying this season.  The writers are spinning their wheels, and not even being entertaining about it.  What a come down from the previous 4 seasons.

Alternately, with all the Russia set ups?  Maybe Phil, Liz, and the kids really will move to Russia?

5 hours ago, SheTV said:

My thoughts exactly.  And in addition, if P&E, who are very obviously not at the top of their game right now, forgot to or didn't take the time to sweep the room for evidence, the authorities will have E's fingerprints, as she touched both the pitcher and the glass when Natalie/Anna asked for water.  I know that's a really lame old school tv/movie trope, but it's something I noticed.

The FBI already has Philip's print too, from his apartment.  I hate it when criminals/spies whatever don't wear gloves.  It's bullshit.

4 hours ago, Bannon said:

Thanks for reminding me of how throughly idiotic it was that the Centre would tell Claudia, and Claudia would tell the P&E, that the virus had been weaponized, and used in Afghanistan. Was there any end to the idiocies which were piled up in one hour last night? 

Seriously!  Claudia would never tell them, ever.  They are already "shaky" or at least Philip is.  Would the Center tell her?  Maybe, she's been around a hell of a long time, I'm sure she has friends/connections at work.  That said?  WHY would she even want to know?

4 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Although you didn't like the episode, the "on orders" part was the most interesting thing about it to me. When Elizabeth kills Natalie, she's really only doing it for one reason--because the Centre told her to. Which makes her exactly like Natalie, who killed because the Nazis told her to. Both have been psychologically coerced to murder coldly. In the car ride home, Elizabeth, because of the example of Natalie, begins to realize that for the first time.

Yes, I think that was their entire heavy handed point.

4 hours ago, AGuyToo said:

This woman was probably the inspiration for Natalie.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonina_Makarova

She was older (20 not 16) and the circumstances of her first involvement with the Nazis were different, but many of the details match: she was used as an executioner of Russian POWs (1500!), she caught a venereal disease from the Germans that was treated at a hospital, she lived in cognito for many years, and she was eventually tracked down and killed by the KGB.

I don't have much of a problem with her back story.  Why?  Because drunk soldiers on killing sprees are liable to do just about anything for shits and giggles.  War crimes are a thing, and far less uncommon than people want to admit, no matter the country, no matter the soldier, no matter the war, no matter the time.  I can easily picture that happening, and who would talk about it later, or share their story?  Most collaborators were coerced, and full of shame, but honestly, to stay alive, what choices did they really have?  Her age and being drunk added a bit to it.

That said, the writers used to base just about everything on true tales.  Maybe they did, even if it might not have been that particular war or army?  I listened to the podcast, they didn't mention it that I caught. 

I had more problems with the present day reactions of Elizabeth.  However, if they really wanted this to push Liz to return to Russia and leave spying life behind?  Accomplished.  20 million Russians died in WWII, that's a pretty huge motivator.

3 hours ago, jjj said:

This.  Remember, they announced the final season at the same time they said there would be two more seasons, and the showrunners said that they had plotted out the show to the end.  Now, I am thinking that they plotted out the *final* season, then said, "so, how do we fill the next-to-last season?"  And this is the result -- a season of filler that will set up the final season in the last episode of this season.  I am still counting on a great final season.  But they just should have gone to that without this meandering set of episodes.  I am sure these various threads of plots will connect in the next week or two, but they could have gotten there much more quickly. 

Agree.

I'm tired of dangling plot points.  I get it.  Spying is hard y'all, and monotonous and has few pay offs, but does that work for TV?  Not so much.  In the past they were able to do both, somehow they lost their way this season, and we only get 1/2.

[sistermagpie]

45 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

Isn't that part of what the show is about?  Having rootable characters committing indefensible acts?

Yes. But they can commit indefensible acts without murdering people over and over. That's not what spies do.  More importantly the murders would have more meaning if they weren't so common. 

I agree on why Elizabeth shot the guy first. Maybe one day she'll watch Philip get shot. 

[sugarbaker design]

6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Maybe one day she'll watch Philip get shot. 

I heart poetic justice.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, DaveL723 said:

While I can certainly understand why the Centre would want to track down a collaborator/war criminal, having her assassinated like they did would serve no  real purpose politically or ideologically.  She would simply be the victim of some random home invasion murder that would have no connection to her past.  It would make more sense to me for the Centre to have P&E snatch her and  put her on trial in the USSR (like Israel did with Eichmann).  That provides them with a moral justification for executing her and lets her serve as example of what happens to collaborators and war criminals.  Alternatively, they could expose her in the US and get the US government to deport her; this has happened to war criminals found living years later in the States, although not sure if any were sent back to Russia.

In any event, it hardly seems worth risking two valuable agents on this.  A lot could go wrong even on a simple hit like this.

That's the biggest break with reality the show ever takes, that Philip and Elizabeth would do break ins or simple kidnappings or assassinations.  They wouldn't.  At all.  MUCH too valuable as undercover embedded spies.  The Consulate would handle that crap, and in special cases, teams who specialize in whatever (break ins, assassination, abductions) would be sent in by the KGB.  Our borders were in no way secure from that, and in real life it happened all the time.

Philip and Elizabeth would only be used in operations like Kimmie, Young Hee, Martha, the wheat guy (but never actually stealing the fucking wheat, anyone could have done that, and it would have probably been the most junior KGB agent at the Residentura...ridiculous!)  They would never break into a mail robot factory to plant a bug.  This is the fucking KGB, they have people for that shit, they aren't going to risk Mr. and Mrs. Jennings.  

That said, you kind of have to suspend disbelief on most (all) spy stories because it would be deadly dull to see the reality.  I get it, I accepted it, because it entertained me, and makes sense to keep our main characters on screen and in danger.

However, when they are simply boring me to tears by dragging every fucking thing out?  No.  I'll get picky. 

Then they do this story and while I'm seriously thrilled something finally happened this season?  Too little too late maybe?  I'm so frustrated with these writers.  What the hell?  Seriously.

I am still hoping for a boffo ending for the show and entire final season though.  Keeping hope alive here, in spite of all of the bullshit this season.  Coitus interuptus. 

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes. But they can commit indefensible acts without murdering people over and over. That's not what spies do.  More importantly the murders would have more meaning if they weren't so common. 

I agree on why Elizabeth shot the guy first. Maybe one day she'll watch Philip get shot. 

Oops, should have quoted you both and then answered.  Most of the above is in response to this.

Philip getting killed seems almost inevitable now, doesn't it?  Maybe I'll take this to the "how you want the show to end" thread.

[dubbel zout]

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

(having more time to tell the story)

The pace was intentional, I think, to show how Philip and Elizabeth didn't have much time to make a decision about whether the woman was who they thought she was. They were iffy about the mission in the first place, and once they started talking to Natalie, they find the situation was more nuanced than they'd been led to believe. I think Elizabeth shot both of them mostly to be done with things, TBH. 

[skippylou]

8 hours ago, whiporee said:

I'm glad to see Pat Buchanan got a gig writing TV, because that was about as "the USSR was monstrous" as one could find.

Was Pat Buchanan really in the credits?  I know they used Oliver North as a consultant on Nicaragua for a few episodes in season 2.

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Philip probably would have told the Center to kindly fuck off ages ago if he wasn't in love with Elizabeth

People say this all the time, but I've never thought it was that simple. He loves his kids and he doesn't want his life to be over, which it would be if he tried to defect. Let's say he and Elizabeth never fell in love for real back in season 1. Defecting would still mean giving up his children and his comfortable life, living on the run or in a prison cell, waiting for the moment they catch up to him and end him, which they would. None of that is appealing beyond a short-lived fantasy. Even if he and Elizabeth weren't in love, it's likely Philip would keep on doing this work, just because that kind of monumental change is mostly unthinkable and it's far easier to stay in the status quo no matter how much you hate it.

I think it's less about what Philip would do without Elizabeth, and more about what he's willing to do with her. If they both want to leave, that provides a kind of strength and courage that he just wouldn't have to act alone. Doing something terrifying as a team is a lot more palatable than making the leap alone. So in a way, it does come back to Elizabeth, but not because she's holding Philip back from something he would do on his own; rather, her feeling the same as him suddenly transforms an impossible fantasy into a dangerous but righteous mission they can embark on together. Maybe some think this distinction is meaningless, but to me it's pretty important.

Edited May 17, 2017 by stagmania

[chick binewski]

5 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Although you didn't like the episode, the "on orders" part was the most interesting thing about it to me. When Elizabeth kills Natalie, she's really only doing it for one reason--because the Centre told her to. Which makes her exactly like Natalie, who killed because the Nazis told her to. Both have been psychologically coerced to murder coldly. In the car ride home, Elizabeth, because of the example of Natalie, begins to realize that for the first time.

 

3 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

fwiw, I don't see Elizabeth as a "true believer" so much as a child raised to be stoic (as I was) ... the ideology is what you fall back on when you need to rationalize, but her mother trained her well in "don't complain, don't explain" and don't look back.  It genuinely becomes habitual and existential -- "he who hesitates is lost."  Elizabeth seems to even feel some guilt about the comforts and normal parts of her life that give her the "luxury" of doubt, but those doubts are very very uncomfortable, even queasy making.  She (and Phillip) have a wall of bricks each one inscribed with some (now largely forgotten) dead person's face.

I just can't see Elizabeth's actions as being dutiful or strong. It may be how I view Keri Russell's portrayal, but Elizabeth always strikes me as completely smug with a side of bemused condescension. I have almost a physical reaction to her lecturing another one of her victims. Putting her children in the thick of what she and Phillip do also doesn't do her favor; these kids grew up in American with a stylish mother who makes a point of whipping up food at a moment's notice from a fully stocked refrigerator. Why she thinks Paige or Henry will feel any sort of patriotism towards Russia or that she herself will prosper in her home country is a head scratcher.   

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

After Elizabeth shot the couple, I was hoping that Philip would put an end to Elizabeth and himself.

I really can't watch much more of this.  Watching E & P drop so many bodies is really getting to me. 

The writing has gotten so bad for this show, that I fully expect by series end that these two assholes will ride off into the sunset without a care in the world.  I hope I am wrong about that.

I thought the way the shot of P & E was framed - looking down at the dead couple - was specifically ominous, hinting at P&E's eventual demise.