S03.E05: Chicanery

[smorbie]

On 5/10/2017 at 8:34 AM, DrSpaceman73 said:

 

On 5/10/2017 at 6:59 AM, acid burn said:

I have a feeling that Jimmy will get disciplined but not disbarred, and the long-term career damage is going to be felt by Chuck. See: Howard's face during Chuck's meltdown; the pitying looks on the faces of the Bar members; and the foreshadow-y flickering exit sign in the foreground with a staring Chuck in the background at the episode's end.

I wonder if Jimmy doesn't take on the mantle of Saul Goodman to distance himself from Chuck rather than to distance himself from anything he's done (whether it be from hurt or from Chuck's tarnishing the McGill name). I'm not saying that's definitely going to happen but it's interesting to think about and not where I thought they would go with this.

That said, no matter when he starts calling himself "Saul Goodman," I don't think he'll become the Saul we know overnight. We have (hopefully) several more seasons of this fantastic show before that happens and then boom, Breaking Bad. 

As with Walt in Breaking Bad, in terms of when they "become" their alter ego, I think both shows point to their alter ego being a manifestation of their true personality all along.  That is the parallel between Walt and Saul.   The Walter White we see at the beginning of Breaking Bad is sort of a shell and the person we know he was earlier in his life from flashbacks.  He adapted over time to the situation and curves life dealt him, then reached a point with his cancer where he realized he had little time to change his short future and reverted back more to his earlier persona.  That is not to say he was always going to end up a meth dealer.  But he was always a brilliant chemist who had control issues, always has to not only BE the smartest person in the room but also has to PROVE he is the smartest person in the room, could not work well with a partner and that ultimately caused the split with his former Grey Matter group.  They never explicitly say that in Breaking Bad, but its heavily implied.  We see the same thing really repeat itself with him in the meth business. 

 

^  This. Whenever BB comes up and people invariably try to pinpoint when Walt became a monster, I say he was always a monster.  He had just been slapped down by life so often that the monster had gone into hiding.  Hence, his being a "shell" of a man.

On 5/10/2017 at 9:56 AM, Clanstarling said:

If I recall correctly, their mother was still alive at the time. So Chuck wouldn't have just abandoned him - he was still trying to get his mother's love.

She called Chuck and asked him to help Jimmy.  He would never have gone on his own.  His hatred of his little brother was palpable.

[ketose]

3 minutes ago, smorbie said:

^  This. Whenever BB comes up and people invariably try to pinpoint when Walt became a monster, I say he was always a monster.  He had just been slapped down by life so often that the monster had gone into hiding.  Hence, his being a "shell" of a man.

Plus, there's really no pinpoint. Walt started off justifying every action and only decided he wanted to be a drug kingpin when Skyler said it. The diagnosis just gave him the excuse. Jimmy also did some shady stuff early on as a lawyer, like hiring shills and arranging accidents. The big difference is that in real life, Walt and Jimmy would have been dead before they'd conquer the learning curve.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 hours ago, smorbie said:

^  This. Whenever BB comes up and people invariably try to pinpoint when Walt became a monster, I say he was always a monster.  He had just been slapped down by life so often that the monster had gone into hiding.  Hence, his being a "shell" of a man.

She called Chuck and asked him to help Jimmy.  He would never have gone on his own.  His hatred of his little brother was palpable.

I don't really buy that Walt was a monster all his life, but avoided monstrous behavior for the first 50 years of his life.  The potential might have been there, but IMO, to paraphrase Forrest Gump's Mama, "Monster is as monster does."  The title of the show was Breaking Bad and the concept was Mr. Chips becomes Scarface.

Even as Walt began cooking meth, he didn't commit gratuitous acts of evil.  His morally wrong decision to cook meth put him in situations where if he didn't do bad things he would either be murdered or go to prison or other people like Jesse or Hank would be murdered.  

IMO, once he started cooking, he didn't make many, if any, truly evil choices, where he had good alternatives, until he decided to turn down the $5 million buyot from Declan.

As for Chuck, he certainly has jealousy and resentment towards Jimmy, but I wouldn't say he hates him.  If he truly hated him, he would want him to go to prison for his crimes, not just lose his law license 

Both Chuck and Jimmy still care about each other which makes their story all the more heartbreaking 

Edited May 13, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[JudyObscure]

I "like" Bryce Lynch's posts so much the "likes," have lost all meaning, but I really, really like the one above.

  I think Walt's breaking bad was not a moment when the true Walt was released, but  a  tiny little crack in a good man's morals. It happened in the first episode when a wash of greed flows over him as he watches the news and sees the pile of cash confiscated from meth dealers.  He was in a vulnerable moment because of his cancer diagnosis and his overwhelming worry about the financial future of his wife and son. I thought the message of the series and it's title was not that, under pressure evil people will show their true colors, but that once good people start down a slippery slope of allowing themselves to do bad things, the crack will get wider and wider.  After awhile the habit of self-justification is firmly entrenched and that, combined with a brand new peer group of horrible people and newly discovered cheap thrills,  gradually sweep away any residual guilt feelings.  It's like addictions.  people aren't born gamblers or meth addicts.  They gradually become those things through exposure. In the beginning I think Walt actually was a loving family man and nice chemistry teacher, the only controlling person I saw in that marriage was Skyler White, who couldn't let her husband finish watching a 30 second spot on the news before snapping a second "Walt! Dinner's ready!" at him.

I don't think Jimmy or Chuck were ever evil people, either. Jimmy took some bad advice from a con-man when he was at a vulnerable age at the same time he was feeling ashamed of his father's gullible naivety.  The advice didn't serve him well but I don't think it meant he had always been a deeply flawed person.  Chuck, like most children had a strong sense of "fairness," and was frustrated by   his parent's favoritism all his life.  That doesn't mean he always hated Jimmy.

[queenanne]

On 5/9/2017 at 2:35 AM, Bannon said:

Also, the portrayal of Howard as a son who obtained his position via nepotism, and not acumen, was really well done. It'll be interesting to see how he tries to extricate HHM from this mess. Maybe he'll have a moment of competence, and will try to get Chuck to abandon the anti-Jimmy jihad if Jimmy will agree to abandon his name.

Yes, Howard's mindset is rich fertile untouched writing ground, innit?  Makes me all a-tingle in the hands of an expert...

On 5/9/2017 at 3:49 AM, PeterPirate said:

Huell looked thinner and I think he had more hair too. Made him look younger. 

I'm sure the cinematography, lighting, makeup etc., has been specifically and delightfully designed to make everyone look younger, in addition to the acting.  I was thinking that Nacho looked younger during his scene in LPH, and Krazy 8 definitely looked younger in the same scenario (about 12 when he was being scolded in the booth, lol).  

On 5/9/2017 at 8:48 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

While, I do think we go to great lengths to accommodate those with real disabilities, what I should have stated was that it has become much easier for people with dubious or outright fake disabilities to get government benefits and accommodations.  The percentage of people receiving disability benefits has skyrocketed over the past 30 years, and the increase has been mainly from people claiming hard to prove/disprove ailments like back pain and mental illness.

Also, increasingly people have demanded accommodations for things like "emotional support animals".  Most are just scamming the system to get "no pets allowed" policies waived for their pets.  There has been some push back against this, very recently.

Also, we should remember that the ethics hearing was run by a room full of lawyers and lawyers are the most sensitive about avoiding discrimination complaints and the liability they can bring.  Because of this and Chuck's high standing in the NM legal community, I found their coddling of him to be realistic. 

Of course, now that Chuck has been exposed as a man with a psychosomatic condition with deep resentment and distrust towards his brother, that makes him appear paranoid, (though he actually is right about Jimmy) that coddling may not continue.  

I think the problems, as one with a hearing disability like the aunt who couldn't stand listening to the church choir, only worse - multiple sounds I am assailed by every day I can't stand, like folks clipping toenails, rustling bags, clanking/scratching silverware, which is backed up by an actual sensorineural hearing loss, I got the audiogram from 3 experts in the field - "oh, we're sorry, queenanne, we can't write you an ADA disability letter, because your hearing loss can't be fixed by corrective hearing devices."  (so I had might as well have perfect hearing ???  I don't understand this, and really wanted to ask the same doctors what they think is done for folks with mild CP, or MS - do they not get workplace accommodations, because their conditions can't be wholly zapped out of existence?) - but, I digress - the issue is twofold.  You would need (1) a condition it can neither be proven nor disproven that you suffer from; but also (2), a "real" condition to aim for; i.e., something in the DSM-V that a medical professional has diagnosed (or "diagnosed", for those who tend towards the cynical), you with.  It cannot be "something you made up".

Also, I read a statistic not too long ago which said that (horrifyingly), 2/3rds of individuals who have an actual ADA diagnosis letter, receive no accommodations at work despite being entitled to them and having said written proof; so to some extent I do find it unbelievable that everyone kowtows to Chuck like he's got an actual diagnosis.  In my personal experience it's hugely tough to get any kind of workplace consideration with zero diagnosis, because you need that piece of paper to wield like a club against HR to even have any hope.  The only scenario in which I can see it happening, to any extent, is if you are a masthead named employee at your company.  I can only guess Gilligan et al expect us to handwave it thinking that the bar committee would make such an accommodation for the Hamlins even if they didn't believe Chuck.

On 5/10/2017 at 0:55 AM, LittleIggy said:

For any attorney, much less one in a family firm, to state "nepotism" as a reason for not hiring an attorney is so ridiculous. Nepotism is the life's blood of law firms. I know from my prior life as an attorney.

I don't really think we were supposed to believe that even Howard believed it as soon as he heard it fall from his own lips; but he had to say something to the committee at that point.

On 5/10/2017 at 0:34 PM, PeterPirate said:

I'm inclined to think that's what we'll see before too long. If Jimmy McGill gets disbarred, I doubt that he could to on to practice as Saul Goodman. Then again, everything I know about the law I learned from The West Wing.

No, I'm pretty sure you're right.  This is colloquial but the way I learned it years ago was, "You can change your name for any reason you want, except if it's to cover up/hide from the consequences of the commission of a crime."  

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Though I think you're absolutely right about the collateral damage, I think there's wiggle room for Kim to be around even into the BB era. Saul wasn't really a POV character, we didn't see any of his personal life. While it's highly likely they've since cut ties, if the show runners wanted to, they could make a case for her being around in some way.

Anyway, I hope she's around long enough to find out about her early life, and the hints they've given that she may have had the tendency to break a little bad herself.

I fear Kim is like the proverb about frog-boiling.  The bar scam was A-OK, a trifle naughty and dangerous, but simultaneously, it's not that different to fancy footwork in a court of law.  Plus the guy is a dick so can be excused.  I can't imagine her leaving this pointed enmeshed proximity to Jimmy unscathed.

[DrSpaceman73]

5 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't really buy that Walt was a monster all his life, but avoided monstrous behavior for the first 50 years of his life.  The potential might have been there, but IMO, to paraphrase Forrest Gump's Mama, "Monster is as monster does."  The title of the show was Breaking Bad and the concept was Mr. Chips becomes Scarface.

Even as Walt began cooking meth, he didn't commit gratuitous acts of evil.  His morally wrong decision to cook meth put him in situations where if he didn't do bad things he would either be murdered or go to prison or other people like Jesse or Hank would be murdered.  

IMO, once he started cooking, he didn't make many, if any, truly evil choices, where he had good alternatives, until he decided to turn down the $5 million buyot from Declan.

As for Chuck, he certainly has jealousy and resentment towards Jimmy, but I wouldn't say he hates him.  If he truly hated him, he would want him to go to prison for his crimes, not just lose his law license 

Both Chuck and Jimmy still care about each other which makes their story all the more heartbreaking 

I did not mean that Walter was a monster all his life.  My point was the potential and the underlying characteristics and personality that developed into Heisenberg were there all along.  He did not fundamentally change as the type of person he was.  But the type of person he was in combination with the situation he found himself in set up the perfect storm of his "transformation" we witnessed in the show.

And we are seeing a similar situation with Jimmy.  Heck even with Chuck.  The same characteristics that made him a brilliant and successful lawyer are now becoming counterproductive and causing his decline. 

And to go to a different show, Nancy Botwin in weeds, much the same seems to apply based on what we learn about her past during that show as well. 

The same personality traits in different situations lead to very different outcomes. 

[ShadowFacts]

22 hours ago, ketose said:

I have some knowledge on electronics and electromagnetism and the rules of Chuck's illness are largely invented by Chuck. A space blanket would do nothing for EM, for example. You would need a Faraday cage. You can build one with wire mesh, but it would have to be completely unbroken, with no openings for doors or windows. It seems more like Chuck has an aversion to modern technology. Perhaps his encyclopedic knowledge of law was being replaced by computer searches and it made him view technology as an enemy.

Good point.  I was also thinking after seeing in this episode that Rebecca was traveling the world for her music, that Chuck was developing some variation of agoraphobia.  She left the house.  He doesn't leave the house. 

[PeterPirate]

21 hours ago, smorbie said:

She called Chuck and asked him to help Jimmy.  He would never have gone on his own.  His hatred of his little brother was palpable.

Chuck had not seen his brother in five years. If their mother had not called him he would have not even known that Jimmy had been arrested.

[Clanstarling]

28 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Chuck had not seen his brother in five years. If their mother had not called him he would have not even known that Jimmy had been arrested.

I'm a little fuzzy on the timeline. Any idea how long Chuck and Rebecca had been married prior to the Chicago Sun Roof incident? Was that the five years?

In that initial dinner with Rebecca, it was clear she'd never met Jimmy before. I seem to remember some discussion on "sorry I missed your wedding" and have the vague impression that there was subtext that Chuck might have been deliberately dis-invited Jimmy and Jimmy was covering up for him, but I could be wrong about that.

[PeterPirate]

The "five years" refers to the time before Jimmy was arrested.  (The reference is from episode 103, btw.)  I presume that Chuck was married and living in New Mexico during most or all of that time period.

I have zero doubt that he invited Jimmy to his wedding. 

[Clanstarling]

26 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

The "five years" refers to the time before Jimmy was arrested.  (The reference is from episode 103, btw.)  I presume that Chuck was married and living in New Mexico during most or all of that time period.

I have zero doubt that he invited Jimmy to his wedding. 

Thanks.

[ketose]

The funny thing is that Walt might not have been evil, but he was an ass. The story of Grey Matters is that he left the company because he felt like Gretchen's family looked down on him. Even though he was a brilliant chemist, he couldn't keep a research job or even a University position. Apparently, by the time he got to the point of high school teacher, he was beaten down enough to be humble and was a good enough teacher to have his ego stroked.

Basically, Chuck is like Walt. They both think they are smarter than their opponents and are usually just luckier. Chuck didn't have to break bad quite as early because he found a career where he could be an ass but still be catered to. Ironically, Jimmy fell just short of that. At Davis and Main, he probably could have kept his nose a little cleaner and been a mediocre partner with a nice income and a free car.

Edited May 14, 2017 by ketose

[Bryce Lynch]

7 hours ago, ketose said:

The funny thing is that Walt might not have been evil, but he was an ass. The story of Grey Matters is that he left the company because he felt like Gretchen's family looked down on him. Even though he was a brilliant chemist, he couldn't keep a research job or even a University position. Apparently, by the time he got to the point of high school teacher, he was beaten down enough to be humble and was a good enough teacher to have his ego stroked.

Basically, Chuck is like Walt. They both think they are smarter than their opponents and are usually just luckier. Chuck didn't have to break bad quite as early because he found a career where he could be an ass but still be catered to. Ironically, Jimmy fell just short of that. At Davis and Main, he probably could have kept his nose a little cleaner and been a mediocre partner with a nice income and a free car.

It isn't spelled out but I always assumed Walt giving up research chemistry and becoming a teacher was largely due to Walt Jr. being born handicapped and to a lesser extent Skyler being something of a negative Nellie and holding him back.

In the flashback when Skyler was pregnant with Walt Jr and they were house hunting, Walt was full of optimism and enthusiasm and seemed rather charming, joking with the realtor.  He wanted to expand their budget and get a bigger house, confident that they would soon have a lot more money and children.   

I could see Walt and Skyler deciding it would be best for him to take a job the did not require long hours, so he could help her care for Junior.

Edited May 15, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[tennisgurl]

Chuck really is a lot like Walt, isn't he? Men that think they're smarter than everyone, and are utterly driven by their own pride. Walt in many ways became darker than Chuck because he ended up falling father down than Chuck did (Chuck might have his electro thing, but he's still a highly respected lawyer and a partner in a major law firm) while Walt was a bitter high school science teacher who could hardly scrape together enough money to take care of his family, and wasn't remotely intellectually challenged. So when he got the chance to have money, power, and use his mind, he went hard fast. Chuck might not be a criminal, but if he fell down as far was Walt did, he might have ended up even worse.

[ShellSeeker]

Hello all, this is a gentle reminder to not veer too far off-topic with the disability discussion. 

[scenario]

Within BCS I think Chuck is a combination of Hector/Gus. Kim is an alternate Jimmy.

Chuck has the emotions of Hector but better bottled up and the intelligence of Gus but not the patience. I believe that his often stated moral superiority is there because it is convenient to him. He really seems to have some traits of a sociopath. If he were raised in a different environment, he could easily be a smarter but less cunning version of Hector. He really doesn't seem to be inherently moral. In the right situation, he could easily break bad and not feel the least guilty about it. 

Jimmy and Kim are in a way the same character at its base. But Kim decided to play it straight for some reason and it has mostly stuck. Jimmy decided to play it straight to please Chuck and Chuck has done everything possible to make Jimmy regret it. Jimmy's morality is more complicated. On the one hand, slipping Jimmy is a con man. But Jimmy seems to have a core morality that Chuck doesn't have even though Chuck has probably never committed a crime and Jimmy has.

I get the feeling that when Jimmy/Slippin Jimmy/Saul does something bad, he has to rationalize it or he would feel guilty, while Chuck is so sure of himself it would never occur to him to feel guilty about anything. 

[Jextella]

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Chuck really is a lot like Walt, isn't he? Men that think they're smarter than everyone, and are utterly driven by their own pride. Walt in many ways became darker than Chuck because he ended up falling father down than Chuck did (Chuck might have his electro thing, but he's still a highly respected lawyer and a partner in a major law firm) while Walt was a bitter high school science teacher who could hardly scrape together enough money to take care of his family, and wasn't remotely intellectually challenged. So when he got the chance to have money, power, and use his mind, he went hard fast. Chuck might not be a criminal, but if he fell down as far was Walt did, he might have ended up even worse.

Couldn't agree more that Chuck is a lot like Walt - but my reasons are a bit different.  I think both men have been beaten down over and over again in life and they snapped.  I posted an interview with Gilligan and Gould in the media thread.  If I recall correctly I think G&G refer to Chuck as a victim (more accurately both a victim and a jerk...or something like that).  I agree that he was a victim.  As much as he tries, nothing Chuck does in life seems to earn him the same type of love and adoration his screw-up brother gets.  It seems so unjust, and it breaks his heart/spirit.  Based on a comment Jimmy made awhile ago, I believe Chuck became ill after his divorce.  That seems to have been his tipping point.  Or maybe it was when Jimmy and Chuck were at their mother's deathbed and she called out Jimmy's name rather than Chuck's.  Related...there is a dinner scene with Chuck, his wife, and Jimmy.  Chuck is embarrassed by Jimmy and tries to get rid of him but his wife thoroughly enjoys Jimmy's company.  At that moment, Chuck's face said it all. It was heart-breaking. 

Just like Chuck, Walt tried to do the right thing as life went on, but he was knocked both down and back at every turn.  To see his peers gain fame and wealth with his idea, IMO, was enough to do it.  The cancer just brought the madness out.

I do see both men as victims to a large degree.  They were dealt pretty shitty hands all along.   My support for Jimmy and Chuck sways back and forth depending on the latest bit of outrageous behavior from both sides, but ultimately (at this juncture), I feel more sympathy for Chuck than I do for Jimmy.  Although I agree that Jimmy is far more likeable.

Edited May 15, 2017 by Jextella

[Bryce Lynch]

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Chuck really is a lot like Walt, isn't he? Men that think they're smarter than everyone, and are utterly driven by their own pride. Walt in many ways became darker than Chuck because he ended up falling father down than Chuck did (Chuck might have his electro thing, but he's still a highly respected lawyer and a partner in a major law firm) while Walt was a bitter high school science teacher who could hardly scrape together enough money to take care of his family, and wasn't remotely intellectually challenged. So when he got the chance to have money, power, and use his mind, he went hard fast. Chuck might not be a criminal, but if he fell down as far was Walt did, he might have ended up even worse.

Walt and Chuck ARE smarter that pretty much everyone.  

I don't think we have seen much of what drove Chuck in his life and his career.  Most of what we have seen of him relates to his relationship and conflict with Jimmy.  I do think that duty is very important to Chuck, whether it is in his profession or his family life, and he seems to be more motivated by duty than by love or caring.

I think Heisnberg was extremely prideful, but Walter White was rather insecure and timid.  I am not sure I would describe a genius, who provides for his family by working as high school teacher and through a second job as at a car wash, working for the worst boss in the world,, as a cashier and sometimes wipe down guy, as "utterly driven by his own pride".  

I think both men became embittered by what they saw as life being unfair to them.  Chuck felt that Jimmy always breaking the rules, but being more loved than him was unfair.

Walt had a much stronger case for saying life was unfair to him.  He was a hardworking, faithful husband and father, who never smoked and ate veggie bacon, and worked out on his low end stair climber, who ended up with terminal lung cancer.  And that was on top of him having a disabled son, missing out on being an owner of a billion dollar company and showering in brown, rusty water because he couldn't afford a new hot water heater, despite working 2 jobs.  

[luna1122]

On ‎5‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 3:57 PM, axlmadonna said:

Nope, that really happened. But it was never released.

.....................

 

Actually, it was, finally. My mom bought it, and lent it to me, but I could never bring myself to read it.

Quote

In June 2007, a federal judge ruled that Fred Goldman, Ron Goldman's father, could pursue the publishing rights to Simpson's book.[51] In July 2007, a federal bankruptcy judge awarded the rights to the book to the Goldman family, who receive 90 percent of profits to help satisfy the $33.5 million wrongful death civil suit judgment against Simpson.[52][53] After Goldman had won the rights to the book, he arranged to publish it under the new title If I Did It: Confessions of the Killer.[9] The Goldman family's lawyers also announced intentions to pursue new publishing, film, or TV deals in order to receive some of $33.5 million awarded to them in the civil case.[52]

I only just got to watch this episode last nite, and found it riveting. I also was delighted to see Huell, and yeah, he's so much thinner than on BB that tho I KNEW it was going to be him, with the vet's comment, I almost thought it wasn't, for a second. Lavell's homophobic comments recently made the appearance not quite as fun for me, but still, my honey and I both yelled 'huell!' delightedly.

Micheal McKean is such a great actor (he and John Michael Higgins in Best in Show remain just about my fave couple ever), and Chuck is so thoroughly hate-able that it's impossible to even feel pity for him. Even tho he's mostly in the right, technically.

I loved watching Howard's face during the proceedings. He expresses WTF? and Oh shit with just a flicker of his eyes.

[Tatum]

On 5/13/2017 at 1:39 PM, Bryce Lynch said:

As for Chuck, he certainly has jealousy and resentment towards Jimmy, but I wouldn't say he hates him.  If he truly hated him, he would want him to go to prison for his crimes, not just lose his law license 

Both Chuck and Jimmy still care about each other which makes their story all the more heartbreaking 

 

I agree with this strongly. Chuck can be a jerk, but I think it's an oversimplification to say he hates Jimmy and always has. He may hate what he perceives as an unfair situation, but I don't think he hates Jimmy. The brothers seemed reasonably close in the first season.

I hope something bad doesn't happen to Kim, but I agree with those who predict she, in some way or another, is going to suffer the worst consequences of whatever Jimmy does.

I am not sure where Jimmy ends and Saul begins...I can't really recall enough about Saul to remember if he had a soft spot for anyone, or had any line he wouldn't cross. But if Saul is considerably less decent than Jimmy, I think it will relate to whatever ends up happening with Kim. 

 

ETA: You know, for all the discussion about how Chuck resents Jimmy's natural charisma and its way of helping him out of scrapes, Chuck really isn't that unpopular or unloved. Yes, his parents clearly both favored Jimmy. But Chuck has been married, has a network of professional allies that like, worship him, is revered at HHM- that makes his resentment a little harder to be sympathetic about, but I will concede parents showing obvious favoritism can screw someone up royally.

Edited May 15, 2017 by Tatum

[Bryce Lynch]

14 minutes ago, Tatum said:

I agree with this strongly. Chuck can be a jerk, but I think it's an oversimplification to say he hates Jimmy and always has. He may hate what he perceives as an unfair situation, but I don't think he hates Jimmy. The brothers seemed reasonably close in the first season.

I hope something bad doesn't happen to Kim, but I agree with those who predict she, in some way or another, is going to suffer the worst consequences of whatever Jimmy does.

I am not sure where Jimmy ends and Saul begins...I can't really recall enough about Saul to remember if he had a soft spot for anyone, or had any line he wouldn't cross. But if Saul is considerably less decent than Jimmy, I think it will relate to whatever ends up happening with Kim. 

From "Blood Money", regarding Walt, after he had 10 potential witnesses, including a lawyer, kill in jail, in the space of 2 minutes: 

"So, uh, how is the maestro? Things have been quiet on this end. I haven't seen him. Just as well, probably. That whole thing in the jails-- I mean, when they start to whack the lawyers, that's when I draw the line. "

Saul did seem to have sort of a soft spot for Jesse and Walt.  He always tried to give them sound legal and personal advice, though they rarely listened.  

Edited May 15, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[Tatum]

Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

From "Blood Money", regarding Walt, after he had 10 potential witnesses, including a lawyer, kill in jail, in the space of 2 minutes.  

"So, uh, how is the maestro? Things have been quiet on this end. I haven't seen him. Just as well, probably. That whole thing in the jails-- I mean, when they start to whack the lawyers, that's when I draw the line. "

Saul did seem to have sort of a soft spot for Jesse and Walt.  He always tried to give them sound legal and personal advice, though they rarely listened.  

Wait, what happened? Who had the witnesses killed?

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, Tatum said:

Wait, what happened? Who had the witnesses killed?

Walt hired, Todd's uncle and his gang of white supremacists to arrange for the murders of 10 inmates, in 3 different facilities, and insisted it be done within a 2 minute time frame.  Nine of the guys were Mike's men in the Fring drug operation and 1 was a lawyer that Mike used to get "hazard pay" to their families, to keep them from talking to the DEA.   Inmates connected to the white supremacist gang carried out the killings, with the help of prison guard, also connected to them, looking the other way.

Saul was out of the loop on this and had no involvement, other than that he was the one who originally introduced Walt to Todd.   

Edited May 15, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[axlmadonna]

1 hour ago, luna1122 said:

I loved watching Howard's face during the proceedings. He expresses WTF? and Oh shit with just a flicker of his eyes.

Let's not forget the delicious expression on his face when he was on the stand talking about not hiring Jimmy because "nepotism", then realizing that he'd opened the door for Kim to ask who the other "Hamlin" is in HHM. Lol!!

[ShadowFacts]

6 hours ago, Jextella said:

I do see both men as victims to a large degree.  They were dealt pretty shitty hands all along.   My support for Jimmy and Chuck sways back and forth depending on the latest bit of outrageous behavior from both sides, but ultimately (at this juncture), I feel more sympathy for Chuck than I do for Jimmy.  Although I agree that Jimmy is far more likeable.

 

46 minutes ago, Tatum said:

ETA: You know, for all the discussion about how Chuck resents Jimmy's natural charisma and its way of helping him out of scrapes, Chuck really isn't that unpopular or unloved. Yes, his parents clearly both favored Jimmy. But Chuck has been married, has a network of professional allies that like, worship him, is revered at HHM- that makes his resentment a little harder to be sympathetic about, but I will concede parents showing obvious favoritism can screw someone up royally.

I have a hard time seeing Chuck or Jimmy as victims except as victims of their own bad choices.  Chuck did have a pretty good life that he made for himself, and to me it looks like he nursed his resentment of Jimmy until it has begun to be his undoing.  He had a seemingly pretty good wife and home life, and she laughed at Jimmy's joke, and he is super hurt about it?  That's the kind of thing you let go if you are reasonably healthy.  (You know, she married you, Chuck.)  The age difference between the brothers (has it ever been enumerated?) would probably mean that when Jimmy was a little kid Chuck was a teen and when Jimmy was a teen Chuck was out of the house.  So it wasn't like Chuck had to endure day-to-day endless "everybody loves Jimmy."  For Jimmy's part, he straightened himself out after the Slippin' Jimmy years, worked diligently in the mail room and getting admitted to the bar, then Chuck disses him and he goes off the rails.  He could have stayed the course without Chuck's approval, as disappointing as it was to not have it.  They have both let family dynamics that are not that uncommon take over their rational decision-making, especially Chuck as I see it.  I agree with posters who think something with Kim will be at the base of Jimmy becoming hard-bitten Saul.  He's not nearly there yet as a result of Chuck being an ass. 

[axlmadonna]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Saul did seem to have sort of a soft spot for Jesse and Walt.  He always tried to give them sound legal and personal advice, though they rarely listened.  

Everyone has a soft spot for Jesse... he makes even the blackest, most shriveled heart grow three sizes... but perhaps Saul's soft spot for Walt has something to do with Walt's resemblence to Chuck (as several have noted here)?

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, axlmadonna said:

Everyone has a soft spot for Jesse... he makes even the blackest, most shriveled heart grow three sizes... but perhaps Saul's soft spot for Walt has something to do with Walt's resemblence to Chuck (as several have noted here)?

Well, I think Tuco would be a least one exception to that.  He seemed to have an instant hatred for Jesse.  Though, maybe, like Mike, Fring, and even Todd, he would have started to like him if he had time to get to know him better.  Skyler also hated him, despite his riveting dinner conversation. :)

I guess that makes sense as Tuco and Skyler had the blackest, most shriveled up hearts on BB. :) (JK about Skyler).  

[Tatum]

I had no soft spot for Jesse. Couldn't stand him for much of the show's run. 

[Bryce Lynch]

30 minutes ago, Tatum said:

I had no soft spot for Jesse. Couldn't stand him for much of the show's run. 

I liked Jesse, but I never got how people thought he was so sweet and wonderful, but thought Walt was the devil.  He tried to sell meth at NA meetings!  He also whined like a little bitch about getting "only" $500,000 per month from Fring, when he wasn't even needed, and put his and Walt's lives in danger by stealing meth from Fring.  

Edited May 15, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[luna1122]

I hated Walt and mostly loved Jesse. My brother contends that it's  just cuz Jesse is cute, which I can't fully argue. He wasn't a good person, he was a whiny little bitch and he did some terrible terrible things. But Jesse at least seemed to have a conscience. He came to fully hate what they were doing. Walt loved it. He rarely seemed to feel any remorse, and loved the power trip. He was a weak little man made power mad by becoming a drug kingpin. I actively loathed him every second.

[Jextella]

People explaining away the successes or failures of others because of their "choices" seems overly simplistic.  It's certainly true, but the thing is, I feel strongly that the capacity we each have for identifying good and bad choices differs.  I also believe that our capacity to see choices through to fruition differs.   So while most things can be traced back to a choice, how the choice was made is the key.

Additionally, there are often circumstances that are beyond our control which impact how our choices play out. 

If we all had the capacity to identify great choices- and follow them through - and not be impeded by others - none of us would be poor, etc. 

With Chuck and Walt, I believe that prior to snapping, they made every attempt possible to choose the good and right path as best as they knew how.  In other words, they did their best. 

Edited May 15, 2017 by Jextella

[ShadowFacts]

14 minutes ago, Jextella said:

Nothing personal, but I kinda get fired up when people explain away the successes or failures of others because of their "choices".  It's certainly true, but the thing is, I feel strongly that the capacity we each have for identifying good and bad choices differs.  I also believe that our capacity to see choices through to fruition differs.   So while most things can be traced back to a choice, how the choice was made is the key.

Additionally, there are often circumstances that are beyond our control which impact how our choices play out. 

If we all had the capacity to identify great choices- and follow them through - and not be impeded by others - none of us would be poor, etc. 

With Chuck and Walt, I believe that prior to snapping, they made every attempt possible to choose the good and right path as best as they knew how.  In other words, they did their best. 

I'm personally not fired up about choices in general, nor explaining away failure, and I don't agree that identifying what is a good choice immunizes people against poverty, etc.  But I do agree that many circumstances are beyond our control.  Here, though, I was only talking about Chuck and Jimmy and their victimhood, which I don't see.  Chuck's good and right path landed him in a good place with a wife, wealth, respect and professional success.  Jimmy righted himself into a law degree and some burgeoning success with elder law.  Then they both choose to do things that I thought were unnecessary -- Jimmy altered documents to help Kim who didn't need help, and Chuck pulled MV away from Kim to get at Jimmy.  Both are going to pay consequences for those choices they didn't have to make.  Those are the only choices I'm talking about.  Walt is a different kettle of fish. 

[LoneHaranguer]

On 5/13/2017 at 10:47 AM, smorbie said:

I would love to see that happen because I don't really think Howard has a spine.

Without the funds to buy out Chuck, Howard doesn't see any choice but to go along with what he wants. Were a new partner or investor to come along, that would change.

[smorbie]

15 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

It isn't spelled out but I always assumed Walt giving up research chemistry and becoming a teacher was largely due to Walt Jr. being born handicapped and to a lesser extent Skyler being something of a negative Nellie and holding him back.

In the flashback when Skyler was pregnant with Walt Jr and they were house hunting, Walt was full of optimism and enthusiasm and seemed rather charming, joking with the realtor.  He wanted to expand their budget and get a bigger house, confident that they would soon have a lot more money and children.   

I could see Walt and Skyler deciding it would be best for him to take a job the did not require long hours, so he could help her care for Junior.

I could see that, but Walt had a long history of bridge burning, and I can't believe research hours are that long.  He wasn't Victor Frankenstein, after all.  I think he had regular hours, but got mad about something and threw his life away.

5 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

missing out on being an owner of a billion dollar company

He missed out on nothing.  He threw it away because he got angry about something.  Elliot and Gretchen both made it very clear he could have come back at any time.

Edited May 15, 2017 by smorbie

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, smorbie said:

I could see that, but Walt had a long history of bridge burning, and I can't believe research hours are that long.  He wasn't Victor Frankenstein, after all.  I think he had regular hours, but got mad about something and through his life away.

Who did he burn bridges with before he got cancer and started cooking meth, other than Gretchen and Elliot?  I don't think we get any insight into why he left any other job, except the one at Gray Matter.  

[smorbie]

4 hours ago, Tatum said:

The brothers seemed reasonably close in the first season.

The first season when he let Jimmy wait on him while Jimmy struggled with trying to build a law practice because Chuck had torpedoed his career before it began?  

[PeterPirate]

My impression is that Walt dumped his skinny brunette girlfriend from his post-graduate days for a buxom blonde who was a decade younger than him. 

[smorbie]

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

gang of white supremacists

How do we know they were white supremacists?  I'm just asking because my family and I were discussing them just the other day and couldn't agree on a label.  My son called them anarchists, my DIL said white supremacists, and I just think of them as criminals.

9 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Who did he burn bridges with before he got cancer and started cooking meth, other than Gretchen and Elliot?  I don't think we get any insight into why he left any other job, except the one at Gray Matter.  

His mother for one.

[smorbie]

5 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

My impression is that Walt dumped his skinny brunette girlfriend from his post-graduate days for a buxom blonde who was a decade younger than him. 

No, he had already left Gray Matter by the time he met her.  He got mad because he didn't realize how rich she was when she invited him over to visit with her family.  She went upstairs to unpack, I think, and by the time she came down, he had picked a huge fight with her father and stormed out of the house.  

Despite that, he continued to work with her and Elliot in Gray Matter, until something else came along he didn't like.

[axlmadonna]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Well, I think Tuco would be a least one exception to that.  He seemed to have an instant hatred for Jesse.  Though, maybe, like Mike, Fring, and even Todd, he would have started to like him if he had time to get to know him better.  Skyler also hated him, despite his riveting dinner conversation. :)

Touche. I suppose there are some hearts that are beyond redemption. Lol

2 hours ago, Tatum said:

I had no soft spot for Jesse. Couldn't stand him for much of the show's run. 

Oh, Tatum... I can't believe that you can say that with a straight face, when this exists in the world. Lol

 

14 minutes ago, smorbie said:

He wasn't Victor Frankenstein

That's FRONK-in-steen, if you please!

[Tatum]

17 minutes ago, smorbie said:

The first season when he let Jimmy wait on him while Jimmy struggled with trying to build a law practice because Chuck had torpedoed his career before it began?  

Chuck may be a jerk, but I disagree he ever torpedoed Jimmy's law career. Plenty of people who don't have big brothers as partners at law firms still manage to make their way.  

[Jextella]

58 minutes ago, LoneHaranguer said:

Without the funds to buy out Chuck, Howard doesn't see any choice but to go along with what he wants. Were a new partner or investor to come along, that would change.

I would LOVE to see a more developed story line between Chuck and Howard.  It just seems odd how much Howard goes to bat for Chuck given that he doesn't do much in the way of legal stuff.  I get Jimmy's argument about cashing out but I don't see how that should be a problem if everything is on the up and up.   2/3's seems plenty for Howard+firm.  

There have also been a few moments where I think Howard wants to take Chuck down.  He supports Jimmy getting the job with Davis and Mane and more recently during the disbarment hearing, he told Chuck he didn't need to take the stand.  It was a last minute suggestion and not a terribly convincing one.  It was as if he made the suggestion knowing Chuck would reject it just to cover his bases.  Seems to me he knew Chuck would fail miserably during the trial and that he wanted it that way.

Also, the firm is HHM with Howard being the junior and his father the senior.  What happened to the father?  Timing seems to go back to the early 90's.  I'd guess Howard senior would have been around.  Maybe not if something weird happened, e.g. premature death.  This is a big gap in the story for me and I'd love to see it filled in.

Edited May 15, 2017 by Jextella

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, Jextella said:

I would LOVE to see a more developed story line between Chuck and Howard.  It just seems odd how much Howard goes to bat for Chuck given that he doesn't do much in the way of legal stuff.  I get Jimmy's argument about cashing out but I don't see how that should be problem if everything is on the up and up.   2/3's seems plenty for Howard+firm.  

There have also been a few moments where I think Howard wants to take Jimmy down.  He supports Jimmy getting the job with Davis and Mane and more recently during the disbarment hearing, he told Chuck he didn't need to take the stand.  It was a last minute suggestion and not a terribly convincing one.  it was as if he made the suggestion knowing Chuck would reject it just to cover his bases.  Seems to me he knew Chuck would fail miserably during the trial and that he wanted it that way.

I also suspect that Howard may be trying to bring Chuck down, or is at least giving him enough rope to hang himself.

Howard would have known that Chuck testifying would be a potential, if not guaranteed, disaster.  He put up a little token resistance to the idea, but I would think he really would have tried hard to convince Chuck not to testify, if he genuinely had Chuck's best interests at heart.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, smorbie said:

How do we know they were white supremacists?  I'm just asking because my family and I were discussing them just the other day and couldn't agree on a label.  My son called them anarchists, my DIL said white supremacists, and I just think of them as criminals.

His mother for one.

Jack and his boys were covered in Nazi tattoos.  Also, in To'hajiilee, Hank tells Huell that he knows of Walt's connection to a white power prison gang. 

As for Walt's mother, I don't think we get any indication who burned that bridge.  Skyler seems to dislike her, which suggests his mother might have been largely to blame.  

Edited May 15, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[benteen]

As mentioned here, it was never stated why Walt left Gretchen and Gray Matter although there was a backstory for it.  It revolved around Walt's insecurities.  His insecurities and bad decision-making seems to have hurt him throughout his life.  When Skylar was pregnant, Walt seemed pretty confidant and had money to spend, starting work at Los Alamos labs.  I've always suspected his lack of risk-taking along with Walt Jr's medical expenses led him to be in the bad financial shape he was in at the start of Breaking Bad.

But BB never gave you all the answers and I suspect Better Call Saul won't give you all the answers on Jimmy and Chuck's issues.  It's one of the things I liked about the Breaking Bad/Saul World.  There's a lot of gray area there.  We know that Chuck is ultimately right about the kind of man that Jimmy becomes but he likely helped create that monster because of his actions.  Neither Jimmy or Chuck is 100% right or 100% wrong.

I hadn't thought about the idea that Walt's similarities to Chuck is a reason that Jimmy got involved with him originally but it makes sense.

[scenario]

4 hours ago, Tatum said:

I had no soft spot for Jesse. Couldn't stand him for much of the show's run. 

I never could stand Jesse. I kept hoping they'd kill off the character. I liked Walt as a character as much as I disliked him as a person. If you're going to deal with ruthless drug dealers, you'd better be ruthless. 

[Clanstarling]

5 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Well, I think Tuco would be a least one exception to that.  He seemed to have an instant hatred for Jesse.  Though, maybe, like Mike, Fring, and even Todd, he would have started to like him if he had time to get to know him better.  Skyler also hated him, despite his riveting dinner conversation. :)

I guess that makes sense as Tuco and Skyler had the blackest, most shriveled up hearts on BB. :) (JK about Skyler).  

Other than his head, the only soft spot Tuco had was for his Abuelita.

[Juliegirlj]

Chuck and Walt were both very prideful men. Both extremely intelligent,both allowed their own personal issues to negatively impact their career. Chuck has an intense love of the law, just as Walt had for chemistry. Definite similarities. For the record, I think Walt "broke bad" by degrees. However, once the seal was broken on his conscience it was a fairly steep descent into his "badness". 

[DangerousMinds]

On May 9, 2017 at 9:38 PM, Ohwell said:

I didn't think Rebecca was being rude.  She had already told Chuck about her concerts and her travels, and I thought she (mistakenly) thought that Chuck was excited for her (although had she been more observant she would have noticed that he wasn't).  So when she got the phone call, I think that she thought that after she finished the conversation she would tell Chuck and Jimmy about it and they would be excited for her.  She had no idea that Chuck would be so upset.

Some of us come from a time when you didn't have phone conversations in front of others if you were able to duck into another room.

[Jextella]

12 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

Some of us come from a time when you didn't have phone conversations in front of others if you were able to duck into another room.

Using cell phones at check out counters is the worst.  So rude.  

Although throwing the phone was extreme....