S12.E20: Twigs & Twine & Tasha Banes

[catrox14]

44 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

It doesn't make ANY sense to me. They have gone from an interesting shades of grey combo of incredibly effective but ruthless hunters of monsters and protectors of humans to basically morality-free psychopaths. 

IMO, I don't think the BMOL were in shades of grey ever.  IMO, Lady ShoveHerDowntheStairsASAP & Henchbitch were not the rogues but were what the BMOL are without any kind of pretense, gloves off.  No pretending to be charming or nice for the sake of appearance like Mick and Ketch.  They were not hypocrites in their work. They showed their ruthless hand and followed through.

I've been thinking for sometime that the 'Old Men" are actually women. Given the focus on Mary making this decision to work with the BMOL, ostensibly to make sure her boys are protected from having to hunt, the focus on Lady JumpOffTheLondonBridgePlease and her child when she was introduced, and not!MrsUmbrage running the Lord of the Flies Academy, I've been thinking that maybe this faction of the BMOL was founded by mothers who lost their children to monsters and went into EXTREME MAMA BEAR mode to protect future generations..

Maybe Mrs!NotUmbrage worked for the BMOL back in the day but was limited in how far she could advance being a mother and sexism, or she was the wife of a BMOL and the monsters killed her children and/or husband, prompting her to found her Clandestine Academy of Ruthless Measures. And smartly, and to keep the heat of themselves, they created this fictitious group of "Old Men" whose orders would likely be followed more than the women.

Or maybe these founding mothers thought the husbands and fathers failed in protecting them so they decided to take matters into their own hands. And started indoctrinating the boys into this school to make sure they adhered to their misguided extreme mama bear measures. 

This could also tie in with Jody having lost her husband and children to monsters and maybe she and Mary decide to create a similar academy with less horrifying tactics and thus the Wayward Academy is born??

[Idahoforspn]

7 minutes ago, Fables said:

I enjoyed this episode, glad the twins were back but sad about the ending. I least expected for both Max and Alicia to survive and go on without their mother as hunters so I didn't see Alicia dying coming.  I don't see Max as a villain for what he did in the end as it kind of parallels what Dean did in season 3 when he brought Sam back to life by selling his soul to a crossroad demon.  I also was glad that Dean brought up the stuff they did to hold on to one another so he couldn't judge Max's choices because I was always hypocritical for them to just expect others to move on from losing a family member when they couldn't do the same.  As for Mary, I'm glad she finally wised up to Mr. Ketch and the BMOL.  I actually like Mary's character and unlike many viewers, see her as misguided and flawed not unloving or cold. The only reason she joined that organization was for her sons, so they can live in a world without monsters once and for all and she saw that BMOL despite not truly trusting them get results and have all this new gadgets they don't.  Sam saw the same thing and wanted to work with them too despite being tortured by rouge agent Toni.  Mary does cares for her sons a lot but she is not a hugger as Alicia says.  Both Sam and Mary were wrong for wanting to work with BMOL but I understand their reasons and don't see Mary needing some huge redemption as both Dean and Sam have made plenty mistakes that made things worse and even winding up splitting up for some time before making amends like in season 5 and season 9 plus the Darkness in season 10.  Mary is allowed to make mistakes too since her intentions were good.   The only problem I had was her character was underused and wasn't allowed to bond with her sons more but I blame that on the writers.  I did enjoy the fight scene between Mary and Mr. Ketch and glad she beat up him even if he did get the upper hand using a taser(she should have knocked him out first).   Lady Toni is back and I hope Mary escapes and takes both Mr. Ketch and Lady Toni down in next episode and finally reunites with her boys.

I want a Dean/Ketch showdown. I want an epic fight where Dean takes out Ketch. Only fair when Sam has gotten all the big kills for how many episodes. 

[Bessie]

8 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I want a Dean/Ketch showdown. I want an epic fight where Dean takes out Ketch. 

That'd be good. But what I really want, is for Dean to use the grenade launcher on Lady Toni. 

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, Bessie said:

That'd be good. But what I really want, is for Dean to use the grenade launcher on Lady Toni. 

LOL

[Morrigan2575]

19 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I want a Dean/Ketch showdown. I want an epic fight where Dean takes out Ketch. Only fair when Sam has gotten all the big kills for how many episodes. 

I want Dean to finally get to use that Grenade Launcher on the Ketch/BMoL facility.  

In other news, thanks to everyone who mentioned that this episode's writer was the guy with the failed SPN spinoff. I was wondering why they went back to that magical shifter version.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

In other news, thanks to everyone who mentioned that this episode's writer was the guy with the failed SPN spinoff. 

No, the writer was Steve Yockey, one of the new guys. The one with the failed spinoff was Dabb who is the showrunner now. 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Towards the end, i thought i had it figured out, i thought Alicia was going to take the deal since she didn't have natural magic and, save her mother. 

That would have made more sense to me.  Why was the witch trying to "sell" her magic to people who already had magic?

 

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Yeah, he came across as whiny in that scene. Like, noone asked him to kill humans to "clean up messes". And the brothers wouldn`t appreciate it either.

Actually, I'm sure someone did.  But, that's not really the point.  Nobody's toddler asks them to clean up their messes either but it still has to be done.

[Morrigan2575]

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

No, the writer was Steve Yockey, one of the new guys. The one with the failed spinoff was Dabb who is the showrunner now. 

Ah, thanks for the explanation

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Nobody's toddler asks them to clean up their messes either but it still has to be done.

I get that Ketch thinks the Winchesters don`t do their job right and that he just had to "clean up the mess". But he has to be aware that they have entirely different philosophies about hunting. They didn`t not kill those people because they were too lazy or too little to do it (and figured someone would come and do it for them) but for morality reasons.  That`s two completely different scenarios.

So the whiny note there of "do you know how much time I had to spent cleaning up their messes" was a bit much for me. Ketch is deluded but surely not so much to  conflate the issues and expect sympathy for himself. Then again, he did think his little trip with Dean went well as a recruiting trip so maybe he isn`t as self-aware as I thought. 

[catrox14]

34 minutes ago, Katy M said:

That would have made more sense to me.  Why was the witch trying to "sell" her magic to people who already had magic?

 

Actually, I'm sure someone did.  But, that's not really the point.  Nobody's toddler asks them to clean up their messes either but it still has to be done.

Except that Dean and Sam aren't toddlers.  Sam and Dean were not going to kill the Secret Service dudes. That isn't what they do. There was no reason to kill Magda regardless of Ketch's bullshit rationalization.  Ketch is justifying his methods and trying to lay blame on the boys. It's pretty classic sociopathic blame shifting.
My headcanon is that Dean was going to ask Cas to go back and wipe the memories of everyone at the black site like he did President Jeff. But events escalated and Ketch made a unilateral decision to kill them. Magda was a murder of a human being period and nothing Sam and Dean would do.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Well, I was kinda shipping Sam and Alicia there for awhile....not so much now.  :/

Mary is just - wow - can't believe how utterly stupid it was to blurt out to Sketch that she knew he had Mick-in-a-box while pretty isolated at the BMoL compound and not with a gun in her hand - this after everything she'd already seen (including the 'files on Sam, Dean, Claire, etc. and how Mick tortured the shapeshifter.)  Why does everyone keep saying she's a good hunter?  It sure doesn't show.

Called it on Lady Iwanttobreakallherfingers coming back to 'interrogate' Mary.

I sure hope Max didn't sell his soul (since he had natural magic) - but maybe it would be interesting if he did and they'll have to figure out how to get him out of the deal and/or hell.  

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Except that Dean and Sam aren't toddlers.  Sam and Dean were not going to kill the Secret Service dudes. That isn't what they do. There was no reason to kill Magda regardless of Ketch's bullshit rationalization.  Ketch is justifying his methods and trying to lay blame on the boys. It's pretty classic sociopathic blame shifting.

I know it's not what they do, but it's what the BMOL do.  And that's what Ketch has been taught his whole life.  So, by what he knew, he was cleaning up their messes because they weren't doing it right.  It would be like if there was a group of  teachers who only believed in teaching math and not reading.  Weird example, but go with me on this.  then, you come along and think that the kids need to know how to read.  The only way to get it done is for you to teach them to read themselves, because this group of teachers refused to do it, thinking it was wrong.  You then end up with older kids who don't learn as quickly and you get whiney about how it would have been easier if the original teachers had just taught them how to read in the first place.  And the whole conflict comes down to different beliefs of the right way to do things and what's right and what's wrong.

9 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Mary is just - wow - can't believe how utterly stupid it was to blurt out to Sketch that she knew he had Mick-in-a-box while pretty isolated at the BMoL compound and not with a gun in her hand - this after everything she'd already seen (including the 'files on Sam, Dean, Claire, etc. and how Mick tortured the shapeshifter.)  Why does everyone keep saying she's a good hunter?  It sure doesn't show.

I was thinking that when it first happened, but then I was thinking that it didn't much matter because he'd already caught her in the hunter-stalker room.  I do think she was stupid not to pretend that she was going to "play nice" like he asked, though he may not have bought it.  wouldn't have hurt to try, though.

[shang yiet]

Why can't Mary call Sam just for once and pass along her messages straight to him? It's getting irritating.

I like the idea of creepy witches but while this is a game changer episode for Mary, the brothers were stuck in a filler and they weren't any good either at investigating the case or helping the twins.

Edited May 5, 2017 by shang yiet

[Idahoforspn]

5 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

Why can't Mary call Sam just for once and pass along her messages straight to him? It's getting irritating.

I like the idea of creepy witches but while this is a game changer episode for Mary, the brothers were stuck in a filler and they weren't any good either at investigating the case or helping the twins.

So now Dean shouldn't be even able to get the calls from his Mom. This is more appropriate for a different thread.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

26 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I was thinking that when it first happened, but then I was thinking that it didn't much matter because he'd already caught her in the hunter-stalker room.  I do think she was stupid not to pretend that she was going to "play nice" like he asked, though he may not have bought it.  wouldn't have hurt to try, though.

Exactly.  I mean, yeah, Sketch caught her where she wasn't supposed to be..uh, how about trying to play it off like she made a wrong turn?  "Oh, hey, X was coming out and I came in - thought it was a different room.  Sorry!"  And then to ask about the Dean file on the wall?  Why not act like she didn't see it?  Sure, he might not have believed her, but it might have bought her enough time to a) get out of the compound or b) get a gun at least and c) leave a real message for Dean that included - "I need your help here ASAP."  But no - let's let the sociopath know that we know everything and we're not playing along - cause that obviously worked out so well for Mick.

[shang yiet]

Idahoforspn - Why would you think that? It's just that we've had scenes of Dean and Mary calling or texting.  Her calling Sam would be different. If you want Dean to get a kill, does that mean Sam shouldn't be able to lift a gun?

[Idahoforspn]

6 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

Idahoforspn - Why would you think that? It's just that we've had scenes of Dean and Mary calling or texting.  Her calling Sam would be different. If you want Dean to get a kill, does that mean Sam shouldn't be able to lift a gun?

Responding in the bitch/ jerk thread

[gonzosgirrl]

22 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

Idahoforspn - Why would you think that? It's just that we've had scenes of Dean and Mary calling or texting.  Her calling Sam would be different. If you want Dean to get a kill, does that mean Sam shouldn't be able to lift a gun?

We had plenty of Mary/Sam communication when Sam 'picked his side' in The Raid.

[Idahoforspn]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

We had plenty of Mary/Sam communication when Sam 'picked his side' in The Raid.

Yes. Very True.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

18 hours ago, Lemuria said:

So even though Sam has no more knowledge about the Colt than Dean and even though Dean is the one with the most connection to and the brother who built his own shotgun as a kid and is way more into weaponry, asks Sam if Sam can fix it.  Not even, "Can we fix it?"  

I thought it probably had more to do with the lore/magical aspects of the colt being 'fixed' rather than just simple mechanics.  Anyway - that's still not saying that Sam can fix it.  

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I've been thinking for sometime that the 'Old Men" are actually women.

That's a very interesting theory about the Old Men being women.  Maybe there was the same sort of mass killing in Britain as with the AMoL and Abaddon but over there the women took over since all the men were dead?  (It didn't seem like Henry's wife knew what he was up to - so maybe in the US, the spouses left behind were in the dark so they couldn't step up, whereas in England, they knew.)

[rue721]

As much as I loved the bluegrass for the montage, I gotta say, I think this could have been the perfect song for it, too (Live and Let Die by Paul McCartney):

[MysteryGuest]

Just re-watched the episode, and I still think it was entertaining.  I paid more attention so I understood more of the Borrower's history.  I don't think Max made any sort of deal to bring back Alicia.  The witch was dead, so presumably, her soul was already headed to Hell.  There was no longer a deal to be made.  Max just used her ring and her magic book to bring his sister back in stick-figure form.  So without a demon deal, I wonder just how that will play out?  The Borrower Witch was able to control the stick people, so they would do her evil bidding, but if Max has no such agenda, and Alicia has all of her memories intact, then other than the fact that she's not actually human, I wonder how this will go bad?  

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Just re-watched the episode, and I still think it was entertaining.  I paid more attention so I understood more of the Borrower's history.  I don't think Max made any sort of deal to bring back Alicia.  The witch was dead, so presumably, her soul was already headed to Hell.  There was no longer a deal to be made.  Max just used her ring and her magic book to bring his sister back in stick-figure form.  So without a demon deal, I wonder just how that will play out?  The Borrower Witch was able to control the stick people, so they would do her evil bidding, but if Max has no such agenda, and Alicia has all of her memories intact, then other than the fact that she's not actually human, I wonder how this will go bad?  

That's how I saw it too. I also think this is a potential spinoff.

[Zanne]

9 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Just re-watched the episode, and I still think it was entertaining.  I paid more attention so I understood more of the Borrower's history.  I don't think Max made any sort of deal to bring back Alicia.  The witch was dead, so presumably, her soul was already headed to Hell.  There was no longer a deal to be made.  Max just used her ring and her magic book to bring his sister back in stick-figure form.  So without a demon deal, I wonder just how that will play out?  The Borrower Witch was able to control the stick people, so they would do her evil bidding, but if Max has no such agenda, and Alicia has all of her memories intact, then other than the fact that she's not actually human, I wonder how this will go bad?  

But, in the scene, they did have Dean specifically say that if Max even touched the ring, the deal was done. I thought it was odd how they worded it, which is what made me think it probably meant something. So it might be somewhat like a cursed object (rabbits foot, anyone?) and Max is in now no matter what happened to the original witch.

[MysteryGuest]

I thought it was an issue if he touched the ring while the witch was alive.  Since she's dead, her plan was no longer in play.  I guess we'll never know unless they bring them back again down the road.  I would think they might, but you never know with this show.

[KirkB]

I think they were being deliberately vague so it could go either way, in case they ever decide to revisit Max. Though given Supernatural, if Max does ever come back he's almost certainly going to die, in order to answer the question.

[Macbeth]

Well as Catrox has mentioned having 2 women of color die in this episode is not a good thing for this series.  I believe there have been at least 5 this season with Billie, Castiel's Angel friend, and the Demon womb sitter from last week.

And I wouldn't be surprised if women are really running the BMOL which in the show's viewpoint is why the BMOL are particularly psychotic in contrast to the AMOL.  But then again the AMOL did let in that one female who ended up being a demon and they are no more.

Having Jody show up now and then isn't enough to counter this amount of misogyny.

Sorry about being a downer - I really liked the twins and their mother.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Macbeth

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Macbeth said:

Well as Catrox has mentioned having 2 women of color die in this episode is not a good thing for this series.  I believe there have been at least 5 this season with Billie, Castiel's Angel friend, and the Demon womb sitter from last week.

Well, pretty much everybody dies on this show, so the only way to avoid it would be to cast no women of color, and that seems unfair.

[MysteryGuest]

Well, technically, Alicia is still "alive", though we don't really know how that will play out.  I hear what you're saying, but on this show, pretty much everyone dies regardless of sex or race.  I'm actually a bit surprised that Donna, Jodie and the girls are still alive.  I'm happy that's the case, because most secondary characters are dispensed wth eventually.  Bobby, Rufus, Charlie, Ellen and Jo...just to name a few.

[Wayward Son]

Yeah Id have to agree that this show is pretty equal opportunity in its killing. Male, female, straight, bi, gay, white, black etc you're gonna die! The only legit complaint I think fans can use is the fact that as of this season the main cast now consists of five white males. 

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Yeah Id have to agree that this show is pretty equal opportunity in its killing. Male, female, straight, bi, gay, white, black etc you're gonna die! The only legit complaint I think fans can use is the fact that as of this season the main cast now consists of five white males. 

But how do you really fault the show for hiring the people that got the most positive reactions from the audience. I don't have a clue. I also wish they had done things differently for the twins family.

[auntvi]

16 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

as of this season the main cast now consists of five white males

Mary's been in at least 10 episodes this season, so instead of 100% white male, it's only ~ 85% white male.  ;)

[Wayward Son]

Taking my reply to the all episodes thread! @auntvi I'm about to edit my post over there with a reply to your post too :) 

[Lemuria]

On 5/6/2017 at 2:34 PM, MysteryGuest said:

I thought it was an issue if he touched the ring while the witch was alive.  Since she's dead, her plan was no longer in play.  I guess we'll never know unless they bring them back again down the road.  I would think they might, but you never know with this show.

But Max' eyes changed when he took the ring.  IIRC, they went completely white.  So this wasn't his using a magical artifact to do something with no consequences.  Instead, it seems as if voluntarily and intentionally, with full knowledge of what that ring was and symbolized, touching the ring was enough to seal a new deal.

As for the misogyny allegations:  I've never bought into them.  Since most everyone who isn't one of the four regulars dies sooner or later, the only way to prevent women from dying was to not have any on the show.  That being said, I do find myself feeling differently about the possibility of all of the "old men" actually being women, considering how horribly the BMoL is being portrayed.  The AMoL might have been a bunch of elitists toward hunters and, yes, somewhat sexist in keeping with the times--though they seemed to be trying to finally open to having women join--but they never behaved the way the Brits have and seemed to have a much greater moral and ethical base.  

So, yeah, making all of the "old men" women would, IMO, make the difference between the all-male Americans and the all-female Brits come across as gender-based.  JMO.  YMMV.

[bettername2come]

Netflix is calling this one "Twigs, Twine and Naomi Banes." I knew that wasn't right. "Their mom's on a hunting trip. Hasn't been home in a week" is a nice touch to although I would prefer if they kept it with the pilot and said "in a few days." Hate Dean acting like he doesn't know how to drink wine, but enjoy him pouring Sam's glass into his own when Sam leaves. I liked Dean trying to change Max's mind (and shooting the witch when it didn't work). Poor Banes family. I have this feeling we'll see Max and "Alicia" again. I suspect Max won't make it through the next appearance. 

That bitch!

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, bettername2come said:

Netflix is calling this one "Twigs, Twine and Naomi Banes."

Did they at least have the description right? Sometimes the episode descriptions they have on Netflix are really really funny for other shows, so just wondering if that holds true for Supernatural too? 

10 hours ago, bettername2come said:

"Their mom's on a hunting trip. Hasn't been home in a week" is a nice touch to although I would prefer if they kept it with the pilot and said "in a few days."

Yeah, I liked this callback too. Got me thinking they should've used this line with Krissy back in the day as well. Not that it matters now, just got me to thinking.

[Hanahope]

Well, this episode sucked.  Here I was happy to see the twins again, but it turned out awful.  First seeing their mother die, then Alicia.  Then Max apparently ends up with a similar 'deal' to have the magic to bring Alicia back in twig form.  Bleck!  This isn't how I wanted to see them again.

And then Mary almost gets away, but as usual, is a bit too arrogant or sentimental and doesn't finish the enemy, and thus, gets captured.  Its not going to turn out well for Mary, or for Sam and Dean, I'm sure.

This does seem to be one of the darker season endings, or at least really appears that serious consequences will be had.  It makes it hard to push through, I'm almost afraid to watch the rest.  But I want to finish catching up so I can set to S13.

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

And then Mary almost gets away, but as usual, is a bit too arrogant or sentimental and doesn't finish the enemy, and thus, gets captured.

I don't think it was arrogance or sentimentality.  I think it was pure stupidity.  She should have gotten out (if possible) the second she realized something was wrong.  Or, better yet, gone to the bathroom, made a complete call to Sam and Dean, then gotten out.  That would have covered her bases.

[DittyDotDot]

53 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't think it was arrogance or sentimentality.  I think it was pure stupidity.  She should have gotten out (if possible) the second she realized something was wrong.  Or, better yet, gone to the bathroom, made a complete call to Sam and Dean, then gotten out.  That would have covered her bases.

Yeah. Too bad Mary ain't that bright though. ;)

[Hanahope]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yeah. Too bad Mary ain't that bright though. ;)

Well, she did come from the hunter side of the family.

[The Companion]

On 5/4/2017 at 8:09 PM, Katy M said:

 

Mary is an idiot.  Play along until you can escape.  WEll, too late.

 

At least we answered the question of whether she realized she was banging a psychopath.

This was the most likeable I found Mary in awhile, if ever. She actually reached out to Dean. She expressed affection for him. She fought dirty. 

 

On 5/4/2017 at 9:01 PM, catrox14 said:

So I'm super not okay with the show killing off two WoC in Tasha and Alicia to further Max's storyline and his was bad because it's a gay black guy who's now kind of a bad guy for making the deal. This disappoints me on many levels. I don't typically complain about that but come on show???

This is some awful optics and I'm not cool with it.

ETA: Yes I know they made Alicia into a witch bot thing but super not cool.  Sigh 😞

I agree. The show may kill off almost everyone, but it does seem like it kills a lot of PoC and women, and often the women are killed so we can see the mens' reaction. It happened twice this episode. 

On 5/4/2017 at 10:04 PM, catrox14 said:

If it was a Leviathan this whole stupid BMOL plotline would have become 1000%  more interesting to me. I would be down for Dick rising again. (#sorrynotsorry)

On a shallow note, Dean's arms and shoulders in that opening scene. His shirt fit so well. Thank you, universe for that gift. 

Yay for an old school Dick joke 😆

On 5/5/2017 at 9:48 AM, ZennyKenny said:

Definitely agree with this!! Although I would just say that I wish they would stop killing characters in general. It's not shocking, it doesn't make for good drama, it just makes me feel like I shouldn't bother caring about anyone on the show. Which is kinda the opposite effect the show should be having on me.

It definitely gets old. As I mentioned, it has entirely ruined Eileen for me because I convinced myself they will kill her off. I get that the show is about the brothers, but that doesn't mean everyone has to die. It is tedious.

Nevertheless, I really enjoyed this. I thought it was really creepy and entertaining. I didn't hate hate Mary. I totally got why the twig people would feel like a real replacement (their mom felt totally normal). Overall, I enjoyed this a lot.