S03.E14: Love Is A Smoke

[Artsda]

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Cookie gives Lucious unexpected news that makes him feel uneasy about the future. Hoping to make Cookie jealous, Giuliana (guest star Nia Long) moves in on Lucious and persuades him to comply with her new plans.  

[Dee]

I love this show.

[NowVoyager]

I love the addition of Nia Long to the show. She has a unique energy about her that I've adored since Love Jones days. Boo-boo Kitty outwitting the FBI?! And that "hot mike" scene?! This episode was crazy good. Well, so much for Cookie getting her groove back.

[Dream Boy]

Very awesome episode. 

[Biggie B]

I know this is a frothy soap opera that bears little to no resemblance to so-called real life, but will Angelo face prison time now, after admitting what he did (getting Freida out of jail; disposing of Cookie's gun)? That scene was excellent! Angelo's been so contained and buttoned down ever since he appeared, but he let it all out! Loved that. Cookie's sister was right...she (Cookie) should never have told Angelo about the kiss she and Lucious shared. I appreciate that she wanted to be completely open and honest with him, but that honestly blew up in her face. On the other hand, could she ever have really married Angelo? Doubtful at best. I don't want to see Cookie pursue Lucious now, just because she feels as if he is/was the ONE and ONLY person she could ever love, or because Giuliana rubs her the wrong way. If Cookie really wants to get back with Lucious, that's a huge decision, and will have massive repercussions down the road, I would think. We'll see, but I did feel bad for Cookie.

Glad that the wiretap situation actually worked, it's so rare to see that actually end up well, it usually gets discovered and ruins everything.

[SimoneS]

I was crushed that Cookie didn't say "yes" to Angelo. It would shown that she is willing to move on from Lucious. I hated how she looked all weepy and heart broken when she saw him with Giuliana. No doubt Cookie will recall where she met Giuliana before and it will play a major role in destroying her.

I am worried about Andre. He is off the rails and I don't believe for a second that Shine is down with this plan to kill Lucious. He is more likely to betray Andre and throw in with Lucious.

I don't like how Jamal feels like an afterthought of late. He needs to be better integrated into the business stories. It is hard for me to believe that Jamal is fighting to make sure that he is still in place as Lucious' successor. It feels like he has undergone a personality transplant.

I hope that Tariq is really gone because I am tired of his scheming.

Edited April 28, 2017 by SimoneS

[Dee]

13 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

It is hard for me to believe that Jamal is fighting to make sure that he is still in place as Lucious' successor.

I don't think Jamal really wants it (despite his initial feelings). The power was (and still is) enticing to him but he is emotionally ill equipped for the job. 

[Artsda]

I found Angelo's proposal so tacky, it seemed liked he asked as a campaign move. 

Jamal's reaction to Angelo thinking about proposing and Lucious concerns was ridiculous. Does Jamal not know his mother at all? He actually said it was over with Lucious? It'll never be over.

I liked Rumor's songs, very Amy Whinehouse.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Artsda

[Sheenieb]

Cookie is a damn fool.

This show is a cautionary tale of what happens when you get with an ain't shit man.

She throws away Angelo for a fuck boy who divorced her while in prison. Lucious only cares about his family when he can manipulate them. He had no issues marrying Anika and now he's buddying up to Giuliana.

I doubt that she would've married Angelo. I was surprised that the relationship even got to that point. Cookie is way too hood for him.  Besides, she will never really move on. She'll date other men, but that's it. The only man she'll remarry is Lucious and that's a shame. 

Taye Diggs' line delivery made me laugh when he said "all y'all are garbage!" 

Edited April 27, 2017 by Sheenieb

[SimoneS]

22 minutes ago, Sheenieb said:

Taye Diggs' line delivery made me laugh when he said "all y'all are garbage!" 

I cracked up at that line. Damn, he went all in and took the Lyons down. Ha.

[Dee]

Empire has done a great job, this season, with keeping the focus squarely on the Lyon Family; while also adding a wealth of fascinating recurring characters, each with a surprising amount of depth, to their inner circle.

Nana Leah, Nessa, Phillip, Tariq, Derek, Shine and Tori have all made significant impressions this season, which is on top of interesting arcs for newly invigorated major recurring characters like Tiana, Becky and Thirsty and much welcome visits by Candace & Carol. The only major recurring characters who could use more airtime are Porsha, Chicken & Freda (and even they remain logically integrated within the fabric of the show).

I hope the DuBois family remain recurring characters. Angelo is an uptight mama's boy and Diana is a strident control freak, but they're a fun duo. Plus, they make great foils for the steely Lyons.

And if Nia Long weren't such a nightmare behind the scenes, I wouldn't mind Juicy sticking around for awhile either (especially with the much vaunted Cookie & Anika alliance seemingly in the offing).

[Vixenstud]

36 minutes ago, Sheenieb said:

Taye Diggs' line delivery made me laugh when he said "all y'all are garbage!" 

'Cause he was practically crying like a little bitch when he said it!  He all but sat on Mama Clair’s lap once everything came out.

I’m not down with all the guest stars….Will and Grace used to be a great show until a guest celebrity was featured on every…frickin’…episode!  And that’s what I’m feeling here, from Nia Long to Eva Longoria to Taye Diggs to Rumer Willis.

Speaking of Rumer, I’m going straight to hell, but I was distracted by the makeup obviously covering up the horrible acne her face was sprouting.  And what the Steve Harvey did she do with her lips, she over puffed those suckas!  The song she sang wasn’t bad though.

Got verklempt at seeing Gabby’s waist in that red dress….can’t wait to see the final outcome after her surgery, she’s looking good.

I hope Tariq is gone for good too, wonder if he was given the boot due to the actor’s domestic situation.

[Syndicate]

Tariq's place on the show may have been lousy and uneventful, but I did like the actor because he oozed sexiness in a dirty sorta way. His deep voice gave me thoughts of him being a dirty-talking, slam-banging lover in the bedroom.

[Ms.Moon]

Cookie is loyal to Lucious and the family to her own detriment.  She needs someone to be loyal to only her.  Lucious cannot be that person.  I always thought that  Billy Baretti was in love with Cookie he always brought her up when he did not need to he always seemed to want to have to interact with her he always mentions her to Lucious for no reason at all.  I think someone like that someone who is powerful enough in his own right someone who will appreciate Cookie's loyalty and not be intimidated by her ex husband or their relationship is what she needs.  Angelo could not be that person because he was intimidated by Cookie's relationship with Lucious.  It can be intimidating because Cookie's truly ride or die hold you down she needs someone who would appreciate her and show her that she's appreciated.  

[wanderingstar]

God - this episode was DELICIOUS!

Angelo’s proposal went left quickly, didn’t it? The hot mic gets you every time! Poor Cookie. I’m glad she didn’t agree to marry Angelo.

I was unreasonably, irrationally happy to see Bunkie in that flashback. Also – Lucious with cornrows!

Giuliana calling Shine “Shiny” amused me. In fact, Shine was fun in this episode. His WTF face at Tori’s shenanigans was funny.

Cookie having Jamaican food w/her boys was so sweet, but it was telling that Jamal was the only one trying to be happy for Cookie – without trying to push an agenda.

Somebody, give Becky the damn head of A&R job already.

Tori gets on my nerves. Since when did she start capin' for Lucious? I did like her song, though. And I could get into a Jamal-Tori singer-songwriter rivalry.

I am disappointed that Tariq didn't know Anika was wearing a wire. Thought he was smarter than that. I doubt that’s is the last we'll see of him, though

Evil Phylicia Rashad? I'm down for it.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Gillian Rosh

[Margohill]

"Love is a Smoke" indeed. Great episode. In-fact my best episode so far this season, but then again things seem to be getting better and better.

The bond between Cookie and Lucious is undeniable. I thought that was telling when Cookie consulted Lucious about the probability that Angelo might propose to her. You could see how comfortable they were in each other's company and you could see Cookie starting to worry about the idea of marrying Angelo. I knew right then that it was getting to the end of that boring relationship.

Cookie having a talk with her boys over dinner was a good scene. These are the kind of get-togethers I have been craving for a long time. It was quite a good feeling to see her trying to get her boys to come to terms with her "possibly marrying Angelo. Funny when Hakeem said he was too old have a step-father...LOL!! Andre didn't seem to care. It was all about his own self interest.

I can't stand Tori, but she can sing though. I loved her song. It was quite jazzy and rich. It will be quite interesting to see how Andre, Nessa and Shine will take over things in Vegas. I don't trust Shine. He might stab Andre in the back.

I wasn't into Guiliana at first but her character is really getting interesting especially when they revealed her past with Lucious. Cookie claims she might have met her. I wonder if that might be true and when? The reveal will be interesting.

Angelo's proposal to Cookie and his breakdown is undeniably the best part of this episode so far. Jamal was not a good help with his advice to Angelo at all. Angelo is a FOOL. He  should have seen red flags all over the place a long time ago. His breakdown and screaming at Cookie was HILARIOUS. I laughed so loud when he said Cookie and her whole family are garbage...LOL!!! Really? Then why has he been dating her all this time? He has lost to Lucious and he can't handle it. I hope he and his Mama don't lose their minds over this.

Anika out-smarting Tariq was good. I honestly thought Anika was going to sellout Cookie and Lucious but was pleasantly surprised. I don't doubt that Anika could out-smart and FBI agent. Tariq was emotionally involved in this case and couldn't think rationally. That's why he got sloppy and over-looked things. Good thing he hit the road. Good riddance.

This Vegas angle is really getting interesting. Can't wait for next week.

Overall, EXCELLENT episode and I will watch it a few more times before the next episode.

[thuganomics85]

Well, damn!  I figured Cookie and Angelo weren't going to work out in the end, but I didn't expect it to end that badly!  Not only does Cookie confess about the kiss, but Angelo looses his shit over a live microphone, and everyone in the studio not only hears all of it, but all the crimes he committed to protect her.  His shot at mayor has to be over, right?  Hell, couldn't he go to jail because of it?  Of course, my favorite part was Diana declaring war on the Lyons because of this.  I so want Phylicia Rashad to go full-blown ice queen on this joint!  And cross paths with Grandma Leah!

Even if Jamal was right about Cookie wanting to make it a spectacle (which, I'm not sure is true), it just seems like a dumb idea to propose like he did no matter what.  Even at best, he would be opening himself up to being accused by his opponents that it was all to help his campaign and not out of true love.  Just seemed like a bad idea on so many levels.

Still, it's too bad that it seems like Cookie still has feeling for Lucious, despite how twisted their relationship is.  And, of course, he finally makes the moves on Giuliana, and she sees it.  Oh, Cookie!

Surprised how they wrapped up the Tariq arc, but finding out about the actor's arrest in real life explains things.

So, basically it looks like Lucious just cut out Andre, and is doing the Vegas deal with Giuliana and Eva Longoria's character?  Was a bit confused about that.  Also, he basically booted Nessa for Tori, who really is this show's Amy Winehouse.  Wasn't sure if that was Rumer Willis doing the singing or not, but it was actually pretty good.  But now Andre is telling Shyne to get his men to load up.  War time?

Thirsty in the gold suit was awesome to behold.  I wonder what Andre Royo's reactions are, whenever he seems his outfits.  Or does he get to choose?!

This is probably going to get even more insane.  Can't wait!

[Neurochick]

This show keeps getting more insane.  I love it; much better than Dynasty.

[Margohill]

11 hours ago, Vixenstud said:

'Cause he was practically crying like a little bitch when he said it!  He all but sat on Mama Clair’s lap once everything came out.

You hit the nail on the head. Angelo may be the kind of man Cookie's father would have wanted her to end up with but he was "weak" in Cookie's eyes because he was not street-smart like Lucious. Lucious is all tough and macho and I just thought it was a bad idea for Angelo to allow his mama to calm him down like that in-front of Cookie. Classic 'mama's boy'..LOL!!! That's what Cookie does with Hakeem and Jamal..LOL!!!

2 hours ago, iheartET said:

1) The opening scene with Luscious and Cookie is the CALMEST scene I have ever seen and with them. WOW! That felt so unreal.

That was a time of realization that Cookie would be moving on and Lucious was so afraid of that fact while Cookie was apprehensive as well. IMO it was a moment they both realized that what they had shared together for a long time would possibly be coming to an end. They both had to be sober and let it sink in. It was a great scene. I loved it.

2 hours ago, iheartET said:

1) Shine to Thirsty: Now, the only reason I'm not smacking you out of that "buy one, get one free" suit you got on right now is out of respect for Luscious.

LOL!!! I laughed at that too. Didn't Cookie diss his suit in an episode last season too? What is it with Thirsty's suits?? They were a lot of smart one-liners from this episode. I can wait to watch it again.

1 hour ago, thuganomics85 said:

Still, it's too bad that it seems like Cookie still has feeling for Lucious, despite how twisted their relationship is.  And, of course, he finally makes the moves on Giuliana, and she sees it.  Oh, Cookie!

Well, I guess Lucious thought he had already lost Cookie to Angelo so he had to find the next best thing. Plus he is a schemer and just wants to get his $10 million bucks from Guiliana that she stole from him. With Lucious, he is always scheming. Guiliana is going to lose out in the end. Cookie just needs to play it cool and watch the drama unfold but we all know she won't..LOL!!!

Edited April 28, 2017 by Margohill

[wanderingstar]

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I so want Phylicia Rashad to go full-blown ice queen on this joint!  And cross paths with Grandma Leah!

Oh that would be so so good. Those 2 women are definitely cut from similar cloth.

[Dee]

15 hours ago, Margohill said:

You hit the nail on the head. Angelo may be the kind of man Cookie's father would have wanted her to end up with but he was "weak" in Cookie's eyes because he was not street-smart like Lucious. 

I don't think Cookie felt Angelo was "weak," despite his post-talk show tantrum. She was fine with Angelo, and their relationship (for the most part), until Limeade.

But Angelo was so wrapped up with his political career to notice the initial warning signs (the hidden gun) that their relationship was in trouble, and to see that Cookie was clearly uncomfortable around him after his return from Lake-gate.

However, their relationship breaking down isn't all Angelo's fault. Limeade forced Cookie to accept a really sobering truth about herself, which is that there will always be a part of her that will always be in arrested development over Lucious.

Cookie quietly self sabotaged her relationship with Angelo because she subconsciously knew he wouldn't, and couldn't, accept her as a whole person (despite his intentions). Which isn't to imply Lucious is any more equipped than Angelo, in that regard, but Angelo & Cookie were never going to work out because they were fundamentally incompatible.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Dee

[Mrs OldManBalls]

10 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

  Of course, my favorite part was Diana declaring war on the Lyons because of this.  I so want Phylicia Rashad to go full-blown ice queen on this joint!  And cross paths with Grandma Leah!

That was the first thing that popped into my mind too! Diana and Grandma Leah, are going to clash over their sons, and it's going to be epic. 

[Margohill]

4 hours ago, Dee said:

Cookie quietly self sabotaged her relationship with Angelo because she subconsciously knew he wouldn't, and couldn't, accept her as a whole person (despite his intentions). Which isn't to imply that Lucious is any more equipped than Angelo, in that regard, but that Angelo & Cookie were never going to work out because they were fundamentally incompatible.

I am so glad you brought this up because that is the prime reason I wasn't down with this Cookie-Angelo hook-up. I just did  not like the fact that Cookie had to deal with a family which looked at her family as beneath them. Cookie tried so hard to live up to Angelo's mom's expectations and still his mom did not appreciate her for who she was. Why make Cookie become someone other than who she is? I was not shocked when Angelo insulted her as garbage because IMO deep down, that's always how Angelo had viewed her.

He saw how popular Cookie was and how she helped his campaign. How about the fact that they had Jamal perform at his fundraiser pulling crowds and Cookie addressing and calming down his angry crowds for him? Cookie being by his side was working well for him. He even agreed to host his election victory party at Cookie/Lucious's club. I'm not saying that Angelo didn't love Cookie, but I have always side-eyed his REAL motives for courting her.

Lucious was right when he cautioned Cookie to realize that Angelo wouldn't want a woman with her criminal record on his arm. He had to warn her because ultimately, one day, it would have come down to it knowing Angelo's mom and her 'uppity' bourgeois ways and how close she is to her son. She would have always thumbed down her nose at Cookie and her family. Why would Cookie want to end up in a family like that? If Cookie has to become 'uppity', let her do it ON HER OWN, and not rely on anyone else to raise her up.

Great episode. I am so looking forward to the Cookie-Lucious reunion. I hope it happens and happens in a good way, knowing how these Empire writers can twist things..LOL!!! 

[Dee]

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He saw how popular Cookie was and how she helped his campaign. How about the fact that they had Jamal perform at his fundraiser pulling crowds and Cookie addressing and calming down his angry crowds for him? Cookie being by his side was working well for him. He even agreed to host his election victory party at Cookie/Lucious's club. I'm not saying that Angelo didn't love Cookie, but I have always side-eyed his REAL motives for courting her.

It wasn't Angelo leveraging Cookie's popularity or requesting Jamal perform at campaign fundraisers, that was all Diana. Angelo was certainly a beneficiary of the windfall, but his mother was the true puppet master. In fact, it was Diana's reneging on a deal with Lucious, behind everyone else's back, that set Lake-Gate into motion.

The things Angelo said to Cookie, during his post-talk show tantrum were ugly due to him being a privileged mama's boy, who was drastically ill equipped to function when things didn't go his way.

I do believe Angelo genuinely loved Cookie. He pursued her quite fiercely in the early going of their relationship (back when she was much more of a liability than an asset to his campaign). But for her to admit to still having feelings for Lucious, immediately following Angelo's proposal, after she'd spent the past several months reassuring him her ex was a non-factor to their relationship, was emotionally devastating for the mayoral hopeful.

However, A/C's relationship was sturdy enough to where I believe they could've had a clean, if painful, break after everything that transpired if it wasn't for Diana's (who has only ever had a single one-on-one conversation with her potential daughter-in-law) interference. Diana's constant meddling and self serving insistence on enmeshing Cookie & Angelo's personal and professional relationships (despite her own misgivings) made things way more complicated than necessary.

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Lucious was right when he cautioned Cookie to realize that Angelo wouldn't want a woman with her criminal record on his arm. 

Which makes Lucious a huge hypocrite, seeing as he was just fine wielding that same criminal record, against Cookie, to keep her from sitting on Empire's board, back in Season 1. 

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I am so looking forward to the Cookie-Lucious reunion.

I'm not. While Taraji & Terrence's chemistry is mesmerizing, and Lucious & Cookie make a formidable team, I think it's way past time for Cookie to be allowed to genuinely move on. In the tradition of all grand Soap Divas, Cookie should be married (and divorced), several times, before the show ends.

Coocious is a crucial bedrock to the show, but it's more important to allow Cookie to flourish now, than to have her revisit a complicated, and often all too painful, past relationship imo.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Dee

[Margohill]

5 hours ago, Dee said:

It wasn't Angelo leveraging Cookie's popularity or requesting Jamal perform at campaign fundraisers, that was all Diana. Angelo was certainly a beneficiary of the windfall, but his mother was the true puppet master.

Angelo is a grown man, possibly controlled by his mother. I don't think he does anything without his mother's consent. Remember how frustrated he was when Cookie turned down that first meeting with his mama? Cookie had to apologize profusely and arrange another dinner with her. A dinner which Angelo failed to tell Cookie her mother was allergic to seafood until it was too late. Cookie had to improvise at the last minute because Angelo failed to do his part. Those tiny little things start putting strain on a relationship.

 

5 hours ago, Dee said:

The things Angelo said to Cookie, during his post-talk show tantrum were ugly due to him being a privileged mama's boy, who was drastically ill equipped to function when things didn't go his way.

 

It is my firm belief that people tend to spill out the truth about how they feel when they are very angry. The word "garbage" was not randomly chosen. It was how he truly felt. You don't call the woman you truly love, garbage. UNACCEPTABLE. There were multiple other choices of words he could have chosen but at the moment of hurt, the real truth came out uncontrollably. I wasn't surprised by that at all because his mother has never hidden how she felt about Cookie and her family and no doubt she must have been having discussions about this with her son.

5 hours ago, Dee said:

I do believe Angelo genuinely loved Cookie. He pursued her quite fiercely in the early going of their relationship (back when she was much more of a liability than an asset to his campaign).

Maybe, but his not advising Cookie on how to dress properly when he invited her to that musical opera show and allowing her to dress out of code was a telling sign. Cookie had to ward off those rude comments from the women who tried to talk down to her. She literally fled out of that place leaving Angelo behind. I think Angelo wanted a woman out of his social circle, someone different if you will. Whether he truly loves Cookie is anyone's guess but I will not rule out the fact that he was secretly competing with Lucious to 'win' over Cookie, and couldn't take it when Cookie turned him down. An 'ego' thing perhaps? Just MHO

5 hours ago, Dee said:

Which makes Lucious a huge hypocrite, seeing as he was just fine wielding that same criminal record, against Cookie, to keep her from sitting on Empire's board, back in Season 1. 

Lucious is not a hypocrite. He is street-smart, sly, a schemer, and is determined to fight his way through thick and thin. That's how he survived the streets. That's how he built Empire. Cookie understands Lucious and knows how to fight him. That was wrong of him to use that against Cookie but he was worried Cookie would fight him for the company and that was more of a threat. Cookie found a way around that by threatening him with his criminal past and using drug money to build the company. She evened the score. Angelo is from a different world, one which Cookie doesn't understand and makes her feel uncomfortable. That's a whole different story.

6 hours ago, Dee said:

I'm not. While Taraji & Terrence's chemistry is mesmerizing, and Lucious & Cookie make a formidable team, I think it's way past time for Cookie to be allowed to genuinely move on.

Cookie can never truly move on from Lucious. Even if she marries someone else, Lucious will always be that dark cloud hanging over that relationship and will always be in the picture. I don't mind it all if they break up again but some of us Coocious fans are dying to see them back together again even if it's only for a moment. They are birds of the same feather. They will always fly together...LOL!!!

[Dee]

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Angelo is a grown man, possibly controlled by his mother. I don't think he does anything without his mother's consent. Remember how frustrated he was when Cookie turned down that first meeting with his mama? Cookie had to apologize profusely and arrange another dinner with her. A dinner which Angelo failed to tell Cookie her mother was allergic to seafood until it was too late. Cookie had to improvise at the last minute because Angelo failed to do his part. Those tiny little things start putting strain on a relationship.

I agree that Angelo is a grown man, but the examples you gave were mainly due to issues from Cookie's half of the relationship.

She missed the initial meeting with Diana (which doubled as an important fundraiser for Angelo's campaign) because she was flustered from the memories Jamal's video brought back, and the food was a disaster because Cookie, Candace & Porsha were so busy trying to find a suitable (Lucious-free) place for their dinner, and then remodeling her apartment (after she ditched the restaurant), that she wasn't able to run her menu by Angelo.

Which was all after the hacking scandal, that already had Diana wary of Cookie before even meeting her. So it wasn't as if Angelo was expecting Cookie to grovel. He was simply expecting her to show him the same respect he'd shown her, up to that point.

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It is my firm belief that people tend to spill out the truth about how they feel when they are very angry. The word "garbage" was not randomly chosen. It was how he truly felt. You don't call the woman you truly love, garbage. UNACCEPTABLE. There were multiple other choices of words he could have chosen but at the moment of hurt, the real truth came out uncontrollably. I wasn't surprised by that at all because his mother has never hidden how she felt about Cookie and her family and no doubt she must have been having discussions about this with her son.

I agree with you 100%, that Angelo's choice of words was wrong, and that it was likely indicative of his potential mindset, but, if he truly felt that way, he would've never been with her to begin with.

It wasn't as if they had just started dating when he flipped out on her. They'd spent the better part of year dating & growing closer, all while Angelo circumvented the law, on Cookie's behalf, while also constantly contending with Cookie's creepily possessive ex and doggedly defending Cookie to his imperious mother.

Again, I'm not excusing his ugly choice of words, but people tend to say stupid things in the heat of the moment; especially when they've been emotionally betrayed by someone they've grown to love.

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Maybe, but his not advising Cookie on how to dress properly when he invited her to that musical opera show and allowing her to dress out of code was a telling sign. Cookie had to ward off those rude comments from the women who tried to talk down to her. She literally fled out of that place leaving Angelo behind. I think Angelo wanted a woman out of his social circle, someone different if you will. Whether he truly loves Cookie is anyone's guess but I will not rule out the fact that he was secretly competing with Lucious to 'win' over Cookie, and couldn't take it when Cookie turned him down. An 'ego' thing perhaps? Just MHO

Angelo not giving Cookie the heads up about proper opera attire was indeed wack, but she fled because the rude women only verbalized her innermost feelings (that she didn't feel worthy of him), which she would've felt even if she'd been dressed appropriately. Hence, why she dodged his calls until he had to show up to Empire in person to get her to respond.

I actually think Angelo loved Cookie, but that they were, as cliche as it might sound, from two different worlds. Angelo is stuffy and privileged, but he wasn't a total stick in the mud; however his ambitions were never going to square with Cookie's way of life. And while Cookie learned to successfully adapt to the world of the social elite, and slowly began to accept that there could be life after Lucious; her impulsive nature was never going to fly in well heeled society.

And I never saw Angelo & Lucious as competing over Cookie. Angelo never really viewed Lucious as a rival. It was Lucious who, time & again, kept inserting himself into C/A's relationship, while Angelo remained solely infatuated with Cookie; and only vowed to 'take on' Lucious for Cookie once Cookie made it clear that, for better or worse, Lucious was an intractable part of her life.

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Lucious is not a hypocrite. He is street-smart, sly, a schemer, and is determined to fight his way through thick and thin. That's how he survived the streets. That's how he built Empire. Cookie understands Lucious and knows how to fight him. That was wrong of him to use that against Cookie but he was worried Cookie would fight him for the company and that was more of a threat. Cookie found a way around that by threatening him with his criminal past and using drug money to build the company. She evened the score. Angelo is from a different world, one which Cookie doesn't understand and makes her feel uncomfortable. That's a whole different story.

Lucious is a fascinating character, but he is very much a hypocrite. When he was aiming for mainstream legitimacy by going public, he was all too happy to abandon Cookie, if it helped him achieve his dreams. By the time that he let her know about her not having a seat on the board, they'd put the issue of her blackmailing to bed long before.

She used that particular bit of leverage very early on, to nab a huge salary (justified back pay) & to seize control of Jamal's career. After that, she continued to work with him (and the rest of the family) to keep the company (and the family) on track to go public, even going above & beyond (without being asked) to protect him, after Anika betrayed the family. But Lucious gleefully telling her she was never on the board, after banishing her from the company & turning Jamal against her, was definitely him wielding her past against her.

I don't think Cookie misunderstands Angelo's world. She acclimated to it just fine, to the point where she recently confided to Jamal her worries about possibly losing her street cred. I just think she isn't built for that particular life, any more than Angelo is built for hers. It doesn't make either of them ignorant of the others way of life, it just makes them ill suited to be together.

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Cookie can never truly move on from Lucious. Even if she marries someone else, Lucious will always be that dark cloud hanging over that relationship and will always be in the picture. I don't mind it all if they break up again but some of us Coocious fans are dying to see them back together again even if it's only for a moment. They are birds of the same feather. They will always fly together...LOL!!!

Cookie can, and should move on from Lucious. She can eventually revisit the relationship, but she shouldn't be in a holding pattern because Lucious wants her to be. Lucious had years to find love after he divorced Cookie, when she was out of sight & mind in prison (and arguably even once she was released).

Cookie deserves that same amount of respect. If she is meant to be with Lucious, then she will be with Lucious. But he doesn't get to decide that for her, no matter how much it hurts him to see her find happiness elsewhere.

As he said to her in this last episode, what they had is what they had, no one can change that. He is well aware they can co-parent their kids, and be cordial acquaintances, without being lovers, especially when he refuses to accept her as a whole person any more than Angelo.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Dee

[wanderingstar]

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I'm not. While Taraji & Terrence's chemistry is mesmerizing, and Lucious & Cookie make a formidable team, I think it's way past time for Cookie to be allowed to genuinely move on. In the tradition of all grand Soap Divas, Cookie should be married (and divorced), several times, before the show ends.

I want Cookie to move on from Lucious too. They can still co-parent and run Empire together, but she deserves to be happy after all she's been through and sacrificed for her family. 

[Dee]

11 hours ago, journalism16 said:

But even though Hakeem was in his feelings about his mom possibly marrying Angelo, it is really telling how he really felt, even though in season 2, Hakeem said, "Hell no, I don't want King Kong and Godzilla back together." For Hakeem, even though he was just a baby when his mom was sent away, I think he truly wants his family together because he did not have that, the way Andre and Jamal did when they were little; and Hakeem probably only saw a revolving door of women coming in and out of his life growing up, and I am sure in a way it was the same for Andre and Jamal as well. 

I think they all want their mother to be happy, but deep down, I think Jamal knows that their parents will never be over, and even if she does find happiness with someone other than Lucious,  it will be very hard for Hakeem to see his mother be happy with someone else, who is not Lucious. Yes, Lucious and Cookie have a toxic relationship, but I don't see how another relationship that Cookie may have will impact Lucious and their sons lives.

I thought it was a real missed opportunity not to have Angelo interact with the Lyon Men more often.

Yes, he bonded with Jamal, but Jamal is an idealistic romantic at heart. Hence him giving Angelo advice more suited to himself, than to his mother.

It would've been fun to see Angelo attempt to befriend the calculating realist (Andre) and the wily firebrand (Hakeem) as much as he did Jamal.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Dee

[Margohill]

52 minutes ago, Dee said:

She missed the initial meeting with Diana (which doubled as an important fundraiser for Angelo's campaign) because she was flustered from the memories Jamal's video brought back, and the food was a disaster because Cookie, Candace & Porsha were so busy trying to find a suitable (Lucious-free) place for their dinner, and then remodeling her apartment (after she ditched the restaurant), that she wasn't able to run her menu by Angelo.

Which was all after the hacking scandal, that already had Diana wary of Cookie before even meeting her. So it wasn't as if Angelo was expecting Cookie to grovel. He was simply expecting her to show him the same respect he'd shown her, up to that point.

I don't agree with that point at all because I clearly remember Cookie complaining to Jamal about her apprehension about meeting with Diana. She just felt uncomfortable meeting with her probably because of her "uppity bourgeois" attitude. That was an indication about how she felt about Angelo's world. Her looking for a 'Lucious-free' place was a favor even to Angelo because she didn't want Lucious barging in and ruining their dinner and rightfully so because we saw it happen at Angelo's victory party at Lucious's club. When someone offers to cook dinner for your mother, I don't think it requires seeing the menu before mentioning her food allergies. Angelo knows nothing about planning and arranging anything because his mother does all that for him that's why little things like hinting about dress codes and food allergies, fly right over his head. 

1 hour ago, Dee said:

Cookie can, and should move on from Lucious. She can eventually revisit the relationship, but she shouldn't be in a holding pattern because Lucious wants her to be. Lucious had years to find love after he divorced Cookie, when she was out of sight & mind in prison (and arguably even once she was released).

Lucious never found any true love while Cookie was gone. It was one girlfriend after the next. Even with Anika, he was hesitant to marry her and only decided to when he wanted her father provide him a 'fake' good health assessment so he could take Empire to the next level. As Lucious said himself, "Cookie is a tough act to follow."

1 hour ago, journalism16 said:

I am definitely looking forward to Cookie and Lucious's love story even if it is brief. But even though Hakeem was in his feelings about his mom possibly marrying Angelo, it is really telling how he really felt, even though in season 2, Hakeem said, "Hell no, I don't want King Kong and Godzilla back together." For Hakeem, even though he was just a baby when his mom was sent away, I think he truly wants his family together because he did not have that, the way Andre and Jamal did when they were little; and Hakeem probably only saw a revolving door of women coming in and out of his life growing up, and I am sure in a way it was the same for Andre and Jamal as well. 

I totally agree with this and with those 3 boys and a grandchild, it would be nice to see the family come together again. Cookie is the one who tries to keep the family together and has Lucious's back as well as he does hers. Lucious wants her back desperately and it is so obvious.

 

56 minutes ago, Dee said:

I thought it was a real missed opportunity not to have Angelo interact with the Lyon Men more often.

I don't think Andre and Hakeem cared for Angelo at all. Andre skipped the dinner Cookie arranged for Diana at her house and chose to spend his time with Nessa instead. Jamal is the closest to his mother and wants what makes her happy and I think Angelo caught that and felt more comfortable interacting with him. It turns out that Jamal was giving him advice based on his own wishes and desires and not Cookie's and that didn't turn out well.

1 hour ago, Dee said:

Yes, he bonded with Jamal, but Jamal is a idealized romantic at heart. Hence him giving Angelo advice more suited to himself, than to his mother.

That's just the thing. Even if Jamal gave him advice, why did he decide to propose to Cookie on live TV? That was really more or less like putting on a show. He could have taken her to a fabulous romantic place and proposed to her so she could be more comfortable telling him the truth. Was he doing it to create buzz and boost his campaign or was he doing it because he truly loved Cookie. I have my take on that but I felt it was unfair to Cookie because it pressured her to accept it when she couldn't have done so in a more private setting. Angelo brought that on himself and to have his tirade broadcast because he left his mic on was even worse.

1 hour ago, journalism16 said:

Also, I think what was so interesting to me about their relationship is that he always seemed backed into a corner when it came to his mother, and he did not seem like someone who could stand up to his mother. Lucious and Cookie will never be over because they know each other like the backs of their hands, and whether we like it or not, both of them can try to move on, but they will always be drawn to each other; but let's not forget the three most important people in their lives that they will always fight for. 

Excellent point. That's why mommy had to come and calm him down when Cookie told him the truth. It was his mother threatening Cookie now not even him. How bizarre is that? I am rooting for Cookie and hopes she gets through this on top.  

[Dee]

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I don't agree with that point at all because I clearly remember Cookie complaining to Jamal about her apprehension about meeting with Diana. She just felt uncomfortable meeting with her probably because of her "uppity bourgeois" attitude. That was an indication about how she felt about Angelo's world. Her looking for a 'Lucious-free' place was a favor even to Angelo because she didn't want Lucious barging in and ruining their dinner and rightfully so because we saw it happen at Angelo's victory party at Lucious's club. When someone offers to cook dinner for your mother, I don't think it requires seeing the menu before mentioning her food allergies. Angelo knows nothing about planning and arranging anything because his mother does all that for him that's why little things like hinting about dress codes and food allergies, fly right over his head. 

Cookie wasn't nervous to meet Angelo's mother. When she arrives at Jamal's loft, she tells him he has to hurry & show her his new music because she's in a time crunch to meet 'Angelo's stuck up mama,' to which Jamal exhibits surprise that his mom is meeting Angelo's mom already (because C/A had just begun dating three episodes prior), to which an unruffled Cookie responds that she thinks Diana 'just wants to check out her black ass.'

After that particular exchange, there is no further discussion between Jamal & Cookie about Cookie meeting Diana, because all Jamal & Cookie's focus turns to his new music and visual album concept. Once Cookie becomes overwhelmed by the home videos Jamal utilizes, without her permission, she exits in a hurry, telling Jamal she's late for her meeting with Angelo & Diana.

Cookie looking for a 'Lucious-free' restaurant, was because she wanted to fix things with Angelo, and make a good impression on Diana. It had nothing to do with her feeling uncomfortable in their world. In fact, when she arrives late to the restaurant, to apologize to Angelo, he has to remind a somewhat flippant Cookie that his family takes politics as seriously as her family takes music, and that Cookie should be as respectful to his family as he'd been to hers on previous occasions.

And Cookie's last minute decision to have the dinner at her place, and nearly wholesale remodeling of her condo, left little time for anything else. She doesn't even tell Angelo the venue has changed until she, Candace & Porsha are hip deep in transporting her furniture to storage and ordering more silk throw pillows; which is why she has the family dinner catered instead of cooking it herself.

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Lucious never found any true love while Cookie was gone. It was one girlfriend after the next. Even with Anika, he was hesitant to marry her and only decided to when he wanted her father provide him a 'fake' good health assessment so he could take Empire to the next level. As Lucious said himself, "Cookie is a tough act to follow."

Lucious romanced plenty of women while Cookie was locked away. He even tells her that the morning after they give into passion once he confides his illness to the family back in Season 1.

The fact that he didn't find true love with any of them (although the jury is out on Anika and Giuliana) is beside the point, because he never let his love for 'tough act to follow' Cookie, stop him from attempting to find it elsewhere. 

Lucious proposes to Anika before he asks Steve to be his medical alibi. It's only after Lucious tells him that Anika will inherit the bulk of his estate if/when Lucious passes, that an angry Dr. Calhoun agrees to do Lucious bidding. 

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I don't think Andre and Hakeem cared for Angelo at all. Andre skipped the dinner Cookie arranged for Diana at her house and chose to spend his time with Nessa instead. Jamal is the closest to his mother and wants what makes her happy and I think Angelo caught that and felt more comfortable interacting with him. It turns out that Jamal was giving him advice based on his own wishes and desires and not Cookie's and that didn't turn out well.

Jamal is indeed the closest to Cookie, but he doesn't really know his mother, which is why most of his advice to Angelo about how to court Cookie was either inconsequential or outright terrible. Angelo seeks out Jamal because he's the Lyon son Angelo had the most access to, not because he sensed the closeness between Jamal and Cookie.

Andre didn't skip the dinner because of Angelo. In fact, he initially agreed to attend because Cookie practically begged him (and Hakeem) to be there. The only reason he skipped the dinner was because Nessa insisted he remain at her function, and earning her trust for his own schemes, was of the utmost importance to him.

And, other than this last episode, Hakeem has been surprisingly mum about Cookie & Angelo's relationship. But he's previously had no problem with Cookie finding happiness with other men and even expressed skepticism at a potential reconciliation between his parents.

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That's just the thing. Even if Jamal gave him advice, why did he decide to propose to Cookie on live TV? That was really more or less like putting on a show. He could have taken her to a fabulous romantic place and proposed to her so she could be more comfortable telling him the truth. Was he doing it to create buzz and boost his campaign or was he doing it because he truly loved Cookie. I have my take on that but I felt it was unfair to Cookie because it pressured her to accept it when she couldn't have done so in a more private setting. Angelo brought that on himself and to have his tirade broadcast because he left his mic on was even worse.

He proposes on television for two reasons. Because of Jamal's advice and because she's taken on an increased role in his campaign. And Cookie's not dumb, she knew he had plans to propose, just not when. But him asking her to appear on live television with him, coupled with her anticipation of a potential proposal should've been more than enough of a warning of the slow-motion car wreck that was about to happen.

And to Cookie's credit, she doesn't reject Angelo on live television. She waits until they're in private to confide everything to him to which he justifiably (to an extent) loses it. But it really didn't matter where, or how, Angelo proposed to Cookie. She would've felt pressured to say yes either way (despite her misgivings) but she buckled down (albeit way too late) and chose to be completely honest with him.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Dee

[Dee]

5 hours ago, journalism16 said:

I definitely agree with you, I think it would have been nice to see Angelo interact with Andre and Hakeem, just as he had bonded with Jamal. I thought it was nice that we saw Hakeem interact with Diana, but no interaction with Angelo. I was asking myself why didn't the writers have all of them there when Angelo asked for their mother's hand in marriage; but I basically answered my own question, that there was no interaction with Andre and Hakeem; so there really wasn't a reason for them to be there, when he bonded the most with Jamal. But there was a missed opportunity on the part of the writers to have Angelo interact with Andre and Hakeem, just as much as he interacted with Jamal.

Angelo interacts with Jamal because Jamal is the only Lyon son he has access to. It's Jamal who agrees to attend the Woke Summit, it's Jamal who Angelo approaches for tips on how to woo Cookie after she flees the opera, and it's Jamal who Diana asks to headline the Captain's Ball.

During that same time period Andre is emotionally distraught over losing Rhonda and his son, in between amassing an army to take his father on, and Hakeem is preoccupied with Nessa and Tiana while slowly adjusting to fatherhood.

Interestingly enough though, Angelo & Jamal have no further interaction (until Angelo seeks Jamal's advice on how to propose) once Jamal enters rehab, despite the fact that Cookie and Angelo's relationship had become quite serious.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Dee

[darkestboy]

Good episode. 

Lucious/Giuliana, it's a bit contrived but it sort of works and seemed to nicely time in with Cookie and Angelo having the ugliest of break ups as well.  Looks like Angelo will be gunning for the Lyons next episode too.

Rumer Willis, they're channeling Amy Winehouse with her big time but it works. She had all the best songs this week to be honest.

They've dealt with Tariq now, right? He's gone for good.

Hoping they utilise Eva Longoria well in other episodes. Charlotte seems interesting enough. 7/10

[LilWharveyGal]

On 4/27/2017 at 8:07 AM, Dee said:

And if Nia Long weren't such a nightmare behind the scenes, I wouldn't mind Juicy sticking around for awhile either (especially with the much vaunted Cookie & Anika alliance seemingly in the offing).

Is she indeed?  Do tell!

During this episode I kept flashing back to how Nia and Terrence looked in their respective Living Single guest spots 20 or so years ago, and wishing that the show had the money for some Marvel style anti-aging CGI instead of just those nasty braids.

[jhlipton]

On 4/27/2017 at 11:07 AM, Dee said:

And if Nia Long weren't such a nightmare behind the scenes, I wouldn't mind Juicy sticking around for awhile either (especially with the much vaunted Cookie & Anika alliance seemingly in the offing).

Any time I hear that a woman is a terror on the set (and it's always a woman), I take it with a huge grain of salt.  A woman of color even more so.

On 4/27/2017 at 8:12 PM, Gillian Rosh said:

Tori gets on my nerves. Since when did she start capin' for Lucious? I did like her song, though.

Lucious stole her away at the start of the Inferno album.

[Neurochick]

On April 28, 2017 at 0:12 PM, Margohill said:

I am so glad you brought this up because that is the prime reason I wasn't down with this Cookie-Angelo hook-up. I just did  not like the fact that Cookie had to deal with a family which looked at her family as beneath them. Cookie tried so hard to live up to Angelo's mom's expectations and still his mom did not appreciate her for who she was. Why make Cookie become someone other than who she is? I was not shocked when Angelo insulted her as garbage because IMO deep down, that's always how Angelo had viewed her.

I really agree with this.  I got this sense that despite what Angelo told Cookie, he viewed her as beneath him.  Remember what happened when they went to the fund raiser?  Angelo didn't tell Cookie how to dress and she felt uncomfortable because she wasn't dressed appropriately.  Why couldn't Angelo tell Cookie how to dress, to me that was unkind of him.  He didn't care if Cookie felt foolish.

On April 28, 2017 at 0:12 PM, Margohill said:

Lucious was right when he cautioned Cookie to realize that Angelo wouldn't want a woman with her criminal record on his arm. He had to warn her because ultimately, one day, it would have come down to it knowing Angelo's mom and her 'uppity' bourgeois ways and how close she is to her son. She would have always thumbed down her nose at Cookie and her family. Why would Cookie want to end up in a family like that? If Cookie has to become 'uppity', let her do it ON HER OWN, and not rely on anyone else to raise her up.

And this is very true.  Why would anybody want to end up married into a family that views you as beneath them?  Cookie doesn't need Angelo's mom to make her over, especially when Angelo's mom told Cookie that HER family wasn't always so clean, that her grandfather was a bootlegger or something (I thought of Chalky White from Boardwalk Empire).

[Dee]

I know Cookie & Jamal are one of Empire's key relationships, and Jussie is a fan favorite, but it's annoying how the writers prioritize their bond over Cookie's relationships with Hakeem & Andre, when their relationships with Cookie are every bit as fascinating and multifaceted as Jamal's; and Jamal proves, time & again, how little he knows his Mom.

Hakeem and Cookie have come a LONG way since Season 1, and out of all her children, he's the one most like her. And Andre, despite his introverted exterior, understands Cookie on a much deeper fundamental level than either of his little brothers, which pleases, and frightens, his Mom in equal measure.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Dee

[tennisgurl]

Looks like they've gone full on Amy Winehouse with Tori, that final number was extremely Amy Winehouse with the old school jazz vibe. She's doing a good job with it, and I really liked her songs.

I do think Angelo really loved Cookie, but I also think he never fully accepted her as she is, and he never would. Cookie can certainly be a classy lady, but she cant ever stop her innate Cookie-ness, and she shouldn't have to. He would have always looked down on that part of her, and that makes for a messed up start of a relationship.

That being said, I don't EVER want Cookie and Lucious to get together for real. They have amazing chemistry and their scenes together are utterly fascinating, but I hope she doesn't seriously stay hung up on Lucious for ever. It might have been nice to see them getting along and working together this week, but Lucious is still the devil, and any good will he shows will soon be thrown out the window for more of his evil.

[jhlipton]

22 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I don't EVER want Cookie and Lucious to get together for real. They have amazing chemistry and their scenes together are utterly fascinating, but I hope she doesn't seriously stay hung up on Lucious for ever. It might have been nice to see them getting along and working together this week, but Lucious is still the devil, and any good will he shows will soon be thrown out the window for more of his evil.

YASSSSSS! (as the kids say)  If Cookie deserves better than Angelo, she deserves 100 times better than Lucious.  He will do evil with no remorse just on a whim (why cut out Andre and Tessa from the Vegas deal when they're the ones who did all the work? Evil.)

[Dee]

He cut Andre & Nessa out because Andre openly defied him. Andre fired the first shot in that particular conflict.

[jhlipton]

3 hours ago, Dee said:

He cut Andre & Nessa out because Andre openly defied him. Andre fired the first shot in that particular conflict.

That's the problem with the Lyon clan -- everything is a conflict.  Think where they'd be if everyone worked together once in a while.  I blame Lucious for that -- that's what he taught his boys.

[Dee]

The Lyons do work together. In fact, they work together as much as they fight. It's part of their charm.

They've all have had various issues with each other, over the course of the season, but as Cookie told Tariq during the family dinner in the premiere; the Lyon family is strong.

[SoCal Mema]

On 4/27/2017 at 8:19 AM, Vixenstud said:

I’m not down with all the guest stars….Will and Grace used to be a great show until a guest celebrity was featured on every…frickin’…episode!  And that’s what I’m feeling here, from Nia Long to Eva Longoria to Taye Diggs to Rumer Willis.

Speaking of Rumer, I’m going straight to hell, but I was distracted by the makeup obviously covering up the horrible acne her face was sprouting.  And what the Steve Harvey did she do with her lips, she over puffed those suckas!  The song she sang wasn’t bad though.

 

 

Indeed.

[phoenics]

On 4/30/2017 at 11:47 AM, tennisgurl said:

Looks like they've gone full on Amy Winehouse with Tori, that final number was extremely Amy Winehouse with the old school jazz vibe. She's doing a good job with it, and I really liked her songs.

I do think Angelo really loved Cookie, but I also think he never fully accepted her as she is, and he never would. Cookie can certainly be a classy lady, but she cant ever stop her innate Cookie-ness, and she shouldn't have to. He would have always looked down on that part of her, and that makes for a messed up start of a relationship.

That being said, I don't EVER want Cookie and Lucious to get together for real. They have amazing chemistry and their scenes together are utterly fascinating, but I hope she doesn't seriously stay hung up on Lucious for ever. It might have been nice to see them getting along and working together this week, but Lucious is still the devil, and any good will he shows will soon be thrown out the window for more of his evil.

Cookie and Lucious definitely have a Sue Ellen and JR Ewing dynamic.  

[Margohill]

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 8:58 AM, darkestboy said:

Looks like Angelo will be gunning for the Lyons next episode too.

It's more like Angelo and his mama are out for Cookie's blood...LOL!!! The preview for tomorrow's episode shows Diana threatening Cookie in a bad way. She is venturing into Cookie's treacherous world and something tells me she will lose this one. I guess when you are privileged, you are not used to being rejected. Angelo and his mama are taking Cookie's rejection really hard. I doubt Angelo is getting any sleep...LOL!!! I can't wait to see the epic drama that is looming on the horizon. I'm for Coocious. Love these 2!!!

Edited May 3, 2017 by Margohill

[Neurochick]

Angelo and his Mama are bizarre.  I get some serious incestuous vibes there.  She's WAY too interested in her adult son's life.  She probably wants him sexually.  Maybe that's how they'll get them in the end.

[Landlord]

11 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Angelo and his Mama are bizarre.  I get some serious incestuous vibes there.  She's WAY too interested in her adult son's life.  She probably wants him sexually.  Maybe that's how they'll get them in the end.

I got the same vibe on ep15. When she

Spoiler

walks up behind Cookie and goes ``Come, my love`` or something or other, to her son.