S03.E03: Sunk Costs

[Tikichick]

6 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Chuck's only goal seems to be to keep Jimmy from practicing law, or at least from doing it under the illustrious McGill name.

Kim didn't want Jimmy's "help".  I realize that, in his mind, Jimmy's main motivation was to help Kim.  But, there is no way his desire to help Kim would have made him totally lose perspective and commit multiple felonies by breaking into and altering the files of any other law firm. 

He would never have had the access to another firm's files the way he did to HHM's.  He also believed it was probable it would never be uncovered, that it would be assumed a transposing error and accepted as such. 

I realize Kim didn't want Jimmy's help, she made that perfectly clear.  What happened didn't sit well with Jimmy and how he views fairness, so he realized he could right the scales and undertook his plan.  In his mind it returned Mesa Verde to the lawyer they belonged with and HHM could go on and survive the comparatively minor hit to their business (comparatively to Kim's firm).  I don't think Jimmy ever dreamed of Chuck's confidence in his own perfection could drive him to behave as he did in court, definitely not wind up in physical collapse and in jeopardy of harm in the copy shop.  But then again, Jimmy was entirely oblivious to Chuck's hatred of him, which was the fuel driving Chuck to uncover the deception, and seek retribution.

[Tikichick]

26 minutes ago, scenario said:

Long term no. But if Chuck collapses again and goes into a self induced coma, they might be able to keep him there for thirty days. Thirty days might be enough to drive him over the bend. 

Chuck collapsed and went into that "coma" when he thought he had made the mistake with the MV documents, or when he thought he wouldn't be able to prove he hadn't made the mistake, not because of the equipment in the copy shop. 

[scenario]

15 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Chuck collapsed and went into that "coma" when he thought he had made the mistake with the MV documents, or when he thought he wouldn't be able to prove he hadn't made the mistake, not because of the equipment in the copy shop. 

And could Jimmy somehow make Chuck collapse again?

[Tikichick]

33 minutes ago, scenario said:

And could Jimmy somehow make Chuck collapse again?

Potentially.  It remains to be seen what form Jimmy's anger takes in regard to Chuck once he's not in the absolute shock of realization that drove him to go to Chuck's, kick in the door and confront him.  It's going to be interesting to watch how things shift for both brothers in the aftermath.  Bottom line for both of them, that family tie had deep, deep roots for both.  With that tie now severed both will have to realign their lives. 

For Jimmy that bond was a touchstone.  For Chuck it was a millstone around his neck, permeated with intense jealousy.  Irony being Chuck in fact did have in Jimmy what he had been craving -- someone who loved him and respected him, despite understanding he was human and capable of flaws, but mostly looked at him as the ultimate talented, smart and a moral guy, upstanding citizen.   Jimmy now has little to tether him to the parts of his personality that aspire to the decency of humanity because his idol has been destroyed in his eyes. 

Does Jimmy's anger rule him strongly enough to go for Chuck's jugular?  That's going to be interesting to see, particularly in light of having seen Gene's struggle to keep Jimmy and Saul contained all those years later. 

[Dobian]

On ‎4‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 10:00 PM, Bannon said:

Chuck loves the con every bit as much as Jimmy, he just needs to lie to himself about the upstanding nature of his cons. He's just a towering hypocrite.

I still think Jimmy's legal strategy, after telling Chuck that the disbarment  via plea bargain can get shoved where the sun doesn't shine, will be to enter into a game of chicken with Howard/HHM, with a credible legal threat to enter into evidence at trial the fact that HHM harmed clients by allowing a partner with a severe mental illness to work with critical documents ina a largely unsecured house without electricity. If HHM is threatened with significant damage, Howard will be forced to betray Chuck, with regard to testimony at Jimmy's trial. This is going to get really, really, ugly, and that'll be very entertaining.

Forgot to comment on this episode all week.  Chuck is wormy little man, staking the moral high ground under the guise of "helping" Jimmy when his real goal is to ruin him.  Of course in Chuck's mind he simply "knows" that it is best for Jimmy and for the legal profession that he never practices law.  And it is Chuck's place to enforce this.

HHM will be damaged by this.  Chuck's issues will become a major topic of the trial, which maybe he was already considering by offering Jimmy that deal, bad as it was.  I agree that Howard's wheels will be spinning with the possible implications, especially with the prospect of Ernesto testifying about all the things he saw and heard being around Chuck, before being summarily fired for no apparent reason.  Chuck's manipulation of his illness to get Jimmy to confess will be a red flag, and other facts will come up that may or may not sink the legal case against Jimmy but will sink HHM in the court of public opinion.

Quote

Chuck's only goal seems to be to keep Jimmy from practicing law, or at least from doing it under the illustrious McGill name.

This is probably the story arc that leads to the invention of Saul Goodman.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Dobian

[RealReality]

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I agree that Chuck wouldn't have put up with the electricity to keep MV from going to any firm other than Kim's,  At the same time, if Kim had lost MV to any other firm but HHM, or if some other partner at HHM had won the client back, Jimmy wouldn't have gone to all the trouble and broken the law to help Kim get MV back.  

Jimmy certainly wanted to help Kim, but he was also motivated by not wanting Chuck to get the best of him.  

I'm not sure Chuck wants Jimmy to be lonely.  I think he just doesn't want him practicing law, or being a "bad influence" on a promising, young associate who used to work for him.  In his own mind, I think Chuck thinks he is looking out for Kim's best interests by trying to separate her from Jimmy.  I'm not sure Chuck wants Jimmy to be lonely, I think he just wants Kim to stay away from him.  I don' t think Chuck would bat an eye if Jimmy hooked up with one of the ladies from the nail salon, or a waitress at the diner. 

Chuck has shown no interest in helping Kim's career other than to try to weaponize her against Jimmy.  

If Chuck had wanted to see Jimmy happy as an attorney he may not have let him work at hhm but he would have made a few calls to smaller firms or at least given Jimmy some sort of direction.  It's what anyone who even likes you as a friend would do.

At the time Jimmy got his law degree there was no indication that Jimmy was running cons or doing anything more than working in the mailroom at HHM.  

I do think Chuck thinks Kim is far too good a woman for Jimmy.  She isn't someone that Chuck can condescend to as easily as a nail shop worker.

Edited April 27, 2017 by RealReality

[MaryPatShelby]

On 4/26/2017 at 9:55 AM, Boilergal said:

It could have been Andrea with her brother - the one on the bike on the corner doing drug deals Thomas(?) in BB,  he was 11.

Or it could have been a random mom and son that had nothing to do with BB, used to set up the scene and re-acquaint us with the doctor.  

[Quilt Fairy]

7 hours ago, Dobian said:

This is probably the story arc that leads to the invention of Saul Goodman.

That's what I was thinking, and it makes me immeasurably sad.

[Bryce Lynch]

14 hours ago, RealReality said:

Chuck has shown no interest in helping Kim's career other than to try to weaponize her against Jimmy.  

If Chuck had wanted to see Jimmy happy as an attorney he may not have let him work at hhm but he would have made a few calls to smaller firms or at least given Jimmy some sort of direction.  It's what anyone who even likes you as a friend would do.

At the time Jimmy got his law degree there was no indication that Jimmy was running cons or doing anything more than working in the mailroom at HHM.  

I do think Chuck thinks Kim is far too good a woman for Jimmy.  She isn't someone that Chuck can condescend to as easily as a nail shop worker.

Right or wrong, Chuck has clearly always been opposed to the idea of Slippin' Jimmy being a lawyer. (And BB history shows he was ultimately right)  Recommending him to other firms would be hypocritical.

We saw Jimmy run cons in his practice since episode 1:  He ran the skateboard con on the Kettleman's.  He then took $30K of their stolen cash and used it to try to imitate Howard and HHM. Then he ran the fake "rescue" scam to get his name in the paper.   He also hired Mike to steal the Kettleman's stolen money and return it.  Good intentions on that one, but still going way outside the.law.

Of course he is by no means all bad.  He didn't keep the money and he warned the Kettlemans about Nacho.

 I think Chuck pretty much nailed down Jimmy when he told Kim that he wasn't a bad person, but he just can't help himself.  Maybe, with support, supervision and encouragement from Chuck, Jimmy could have overcome his con artist instincts.  But, there is no guarantee of this and in his condition, Chuck was in no position to try to keep Jimmy on the straight and narrow.

I am not sure how much Chuck really "cares" about Kim, but I do think he genuinely doesn't want to see a young lawyer ruin herself by being connected to Jimmy.  I think it is more of an abstract sort of "caring" rather than based upon any personal affection for Kim.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[ShadowFacts]

9 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Right or wrong, Chuck has clearly always been opposed to the idea of Slippin' Jimmy being a lawyer. (And BB history shows he was ultimately right)  Recommending him to other firms would be hypocritical.

It's unknowable, but Chuck might well have been in the wrong in "knowing" Jimmy would be a bad lawyer.  As far as we've been shown, Jimmy was on the straight and narrow for years while working in the mail room, earning his law degree, and passing the bar.  He had that capability to tamp down his conning, at least in part to gain Chuck's admiration.  Chuck was actually a powerful motivator in that way.  If he had been proud of Jimmy the way Jimmy hoped, and treated him eventually as an equal, things might have been very different.  We have seen Jimmy's rapport with seniors, he is a go-getter and a loyal friend, has some measure of respect at the courthouse.  Jimmy is Jimmy, and will become Saul, but Chuck's part in it is what at least half of this show is about.

I'm not sure Chuck has been clearly always opposed -- he was in the beginning and he surely is now.  I am remembering how he eagerly helped Jimmy with wills when Jimmy initially got a bunch of Sandpiper clients, and then when Jimmy discovered the billing irregularities.  He may have been comfortable to a certain degree with Jimmy in that elder arena, knowing Jimmy probably wouldn't rise to the level of professional respect that he himself had attained (and that he is now in danger of losing because of his own runaway envy).

[Bryce Lynch]

32 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

It's unknowable, but Chuck might well have been in the wrong in "knowing" Jimmy would be a bad lawyer.  As far as we've been shown, Jimmy was on the straight and narrow for years while working in the mail room, earning his law degree, and passing the bar.  He had that capability to tamp down his conning, at least in part to gain Chuck's admiration.  Chuck was actually a powerful motivator in that way.  If he had been proud of Jimmy the way Jimmy hoped, and treated him eventually as an equal, things might have been very different.  We have seen Jimmy's rapport with seniors, he is a go-getter and a loyal friend, has some measure of respect at the courthouse.  Jimmy is Jimmy, and will become Saul, but Chuck's part in it is what at least half of this show is about.

I'm not sure Chuck has been clearly always opposed -- he was in the beginning and he surely is now.  I am remembering how he eagerly helped Jimmy with wills when Jimmy initially got a bunch of Sandpiper clients, and then when Jimmy discovered the billing irregularities.  He may have been comfortable to a certain degree with Jimmy in that elder arena, knowing Jimmy probably wouldn't rise to the level of professional respect that he himself had attained (and that he is now in danger of losing because of his own runaway envy).

I agree, as I thought about it more, I realized that Chuck was relatively supportive of Jimmy's career, as long as it didn't involve Jimmy working with HIS firm, firms his firm was working with, or Jimmy's practice being associated with his.  I think Chuck would have preferred Jimmy find a different line of work, but he did not actively oppose him.  In fact, he encouraged him to continue the public defender work, saying it was great experience, and he helped him with the wills and with getting the Sandpiper case going.   But, when it came to the point where Jimmy would be working for or with his firm, Chuck drew the line (though he again let Jimmy think it was Howard opposing him). 

Chuck didn't really become obsessed with destroying Jimmy's career until after the cut and paste incident.  

Chuck's intentions with Kim are hard to figure out.  Is he hurting her to get at Jimmy?  Is he really concerned about her?  Why was he so anxious to retain Mesa Verde?  Did he want to hurt Jimmy?  Did he want to hurt Kim for choosing to work with Jimmy?  Or, in his mind, did he think it was "for her own good"?  He might have been thinking, that if he could stop her from getting Mesa Verde, she would change her mind and return to HHM or reconsider the offer from S&C, and get out of her dangerous entanglement with Jimmy.    

[Tikichick]

Chuck didn't take proactive steps to destroy Jimmy's law career, when it remained within certain limits Chuck felt he could hold superiority over.  At the same time I'm sure he kept up a certain dialogue with Jimmy, always carefully phrased to seem helpful or cautionary, but in reality simply a way to tell Jimmy he was less than. 

Chuck may tell himself his comments and his actions are for someone else's own good, but in reality they only serve Chuck's purposes.  I'm sure he's just sick about Ernesto, after all he did warn him -- right after baiting the trap and luring him in.

[Tikichick]

58 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

It's unknowable, but Chuck might well have been in the wrong in "knowing" Jimmy would be a bad lawyer.  As far as we've been shown, Jimmy was on the straight and narrow for years while working in the mail room, earning his law degree, and passing the bar.  He had that capability to tamp down his conning, at least in part to gain Chuck's admiration.  Chuck was actually a powerful motivator in that way.  If he had been proud of Jimmy the way Jimmy hoped, and treated him eventually as an equal, things might have been very different.  We have seen Jimmy's rapport with seniors, he is a go-getter and a loyal friend, has some measure of respect at the courthouse.  Jimmy is Jimmy, and will become Saul, but Chuck's part in it is what at least half of this show is about.

I'm not sure Chuck has been clearly always opposed -- he was in the beginning and he surely is now.  I am remembering how he eagerly helped Jimmy with wills when Jimmy initially got a bunch of Sandpiper clients, and then when Jimmy discovered the billing irregularities.  He may have been comfortable to a certain degree with Jimmy in that elder arena, knowing Jimmy probably wouldn't rise to the level of professional respect that he himself had attained (and that he is now in danger of losing because of his own runaway envy).

It's also unknowable what the trajectory of Jimmy's law career might have been had he been taken into the HHM fold once he passed the bar.  Absent the pressures of squeaking out a living any way he could, including running schemes simply to keep his living space/office at the nail salon and keeping his beater running, might he have channeled his talents and creative energies into a spectacular career that utilized his insight into how cons work and his heart for seeing the little guy triumph on the right side of the law?

There was definitely a chance, particularly with encouragement from a good firm and colleagues, including a supportive Kim he could have worked alongside and an older brother who was determined to see his wayward brother go straight at long last.  Oh, guess not.

[Clanstarling]

20 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Chuck didn't take proactive steps to destroy Jimmy's law career, when it remained within certain limits Chuck felt he could hold superiority over.  At the same time I'm sure he kept up a certain dialogue with Jimmy, always carefully phrased to seem helpful or cautionary, but in reality simply a way to tell Jimmy he was less than. 

Chuck may tell himself his comments and his actions are for someone else's own good, but in reality they only serve Chuck's purposes.  I'm sure he's just sick about Ernesto, after all he did warn him -- right after baiting the trap and luring him in.

He's excellent at that those subtle "less than" dialogues. His mastery was clear when he managed to wrangle the client back from Kim. Nothing he said was on its face negative about her, in fact he said many positive things, and yet everything undermined her. Just like with Jimmy.

The brothers are both silver tongued, just in different ways.

We're all heroes of our own stories, and sometimes we have to really stretch to convince ourselves of that, which is why Chuck's telling himself that laying a trap for his brother and having him arrested is for Jimmy's own good.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Tikichick]

38 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

He's excellent at that those subtle "less than" dialogues. His mastery was clear when he managed to wrangle the client back from Kim. Nothing he said was on its face negative about her, in fact he said many positive things, and yet everything undermined her. Just like with Jimmy.

The brothers are both silver tongued, just in different ways.

We're all heroes of our own stories, and sometimes we have to really stretch to convince ourselves of that, which is why Chuck's telling himself that laying a trap for his brother and having him arrested is for Jimmy's own good.

Notably Jimmy would get frustrated at Chuck's oversight and comments, the tape removal, yet Jimmy ultimately received it all as Chuck being right, Chuck always knowing better, Chuck looking out for him.  Until Jimmy had the blinders ripped off and he saw Chuck and his comments for what they are.

No doubt it's incredibly frustrating to Chuck, way down deep, where he recognizes the similarities between himself and his brother.  Significantly we've never seen Chuck hesitate to use his abilities against anyone if it suited his purposes.  The same cannot be said of Jimmy.  But then again we also know Chuck fails to convince one key person, himself, to his peril.

Will Chuck even feel a flicker of regret for Ernesto?  Yet we know Ernesto was made to feel at fault simply if the market wasn't carrying Chuck's preferred variety of apples.   I certainly hope Ernesto lands on his feet somewhere at a company that appreciates him and allows him to become a valued asset -- and treats him as such.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Tikichick

[PeterPirate]

On 4/25/2017 at 7:25 AM, Eulipian 5k said:

That's it! I kept searching last night to see if any posters caught this. It would fit with all the hints we were getting that another "beloved character" from BB was showing up.

So who put the bullet holes in the stop sign? Is that a "thing" in NM?

Were those holes in the Alto sign when Mike did his thing on the Salamanca truck?  

[Tikichick]

4 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Were those holes in the Alto sign when Mike did his thing on the Salamanca truck?  

Didn't look like it.  The sign also was shiny at that point.

[benteen]

I've said this before but I don't think it was necessarily wrong for Chuck not to want Jimmy to join HHM the moment Jimmy got his law degree.  Given Jimmy's past history, the fact that Chuck didn't know that Jimmy was going for his law degree and the fact that he literally just passed the bar, I don't think this entitled Jimmy to a job.  Chuck and Hamlin both could have handled that situation better.  When he brought them the Sandpiper case, then it was bullshit not to give Jimmy an office.

Chuck is Frank Grimes from The Simpsons, aka Grimey.

I don't think Chuck gives a damn about Kim or Ernesto though I agree, I think he doesn't want to see a promising young lawyer "ruin" herself by associating with Jimmy.  He views most people as peasants though, unworthy of him.

[PeterPirate]

I think Ernesto signed his own termination notice when he told Chuck that he called Jimmy from the copy shop.  

And he has no grounds to protest, since he would be asked to turn over his cell phone if he did. 

Edited April 28, 2017 by PeterPirate

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Right or wrong, Chuck has clearly always been opposed to the idea of Slippin' Jimmy being a lawyer. (And BB history shows he was ultimately right)  Recommending him to other firms would be hypocritical.

We saw Jimmy run cons in his practice since episode 1:  He ran the skateboard con on the Kettleman's.  He then took $30K of their stolen cash and used it to try to imitate Howard and HHM. Then he ran the fake "rescue" scam to get his name in the paper.   He also hired Mike to steal the Kettleman's stolen money and return it.  Good intentions on that one, but still going way outside the.law.

Of course he is by no means all bad.  He didn't keep the money and he warned the Kettlemans about Nacho.

 I think Chuck pretty much nailed down Jimmy when he told Kim that he wasn't a bad person, but he just can't help himself.  Maybe, with support, supervision and encouragement from Chuck, Jimmy could have overcome his con artist instincts.  But, there is no guarantee of this and in his condition, Chuck was in no position to try to keep Jimmy on the straight and narrow.

I am not sure how much Chuck really "cares" about Kim, but I do think he genuinely doesn't want to see a young lawyer ruin herself by being connected to Jimmy.  I think it is more of an abstract sort of "caring" rather than based upon any personal affection for Kim.

I'm not sure what it says about me, but in spite of the litany of wrong doings by Jimmy listed above, and a perhaps lengthier list against Walter White, I never felt any animosity towards either character. Perhaps beneath the exterior of this petite, gray-haired, service-oriented librarian beats the heart of a gangster?
But Chuck, OTOH, makes me seethe with anger and frustration towards his words and actions.

[Bryce Lynch]

11 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I'm not sure what it says about me, but in spite of the litany of wrong doings by Jimmy listed above, and a perhaps lengthier list against Walter White, I never felt any animosity towards either character. Perhaps beneath the exterior of this petite, gray-haired, service-oriented librarian beats the heart of a gangster?
But Chuck, OTOH, makes me seethe with anger and frustration towards his words and actions.

I think Vince Gilligan and crew are masters of creating characters who do very, bad things, but remain somehow likable.  I was rooting for Walter White right up to the end.  I am also rooting for Jimmy/Saul against Chuck, despite all of Jimmy's past, present and future misdeeds.  

49 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Didn't look like it.  The sign also was shiny at that point.

I think there were holes in the green road sign when Mike was doing his sniper thing, but not in the red Alto sign.  

[Clanstarling]

31 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think Vince Gilligan and crew are masters of creating characters who do very, bad things, but remain somehow likable.  

I agree. However, I didn't find Walter White particularly likeable, at least not after the first season or two. Fascinating, yes. Likeable, no.

[ShadowFacts]

36 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I'm not sure what it says about me, but in spite of the litany of wrong doings by Jimmy listed above, and a perhaps lengthier list against Walter White, I never felt any animosity towards either character. Perhaps beneath the exterior of this petite, gray-haired, service-oriented librarian beats the heart of a gangster?
But Chuck, OTOH, makes me seethe with anger and frustration towards his words and actions.

I'm with you, except for the part about Walter White.  He put his family in grave danger long after he had more than enough money, and whistled after feigning regret about the killing of Drew Sharp and that created a lot of animosity in me; I felt his humanity was gone.  As to Jimmy and Chuck, I am probably responding to the deftness of the shades of gray in Jimmy and the increasing blackness of Chuck. 

[Tikichick]

47 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I'm not sure what it says about me, but in spite of the litany of wrong doings by Jimmy listed above, and a perhaps lengthier list against Walter White, I never felt any animosity towards either character. Perhaps beneath the exterior of this petite, gray-haired, service-oriented librarian beats the heart of a gangster?
But Chuck, OTOH, makes me seethe with anger and frustration towards his words and actions.

 

34 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think Vince Gilligan and crew are masters of creating characters who do very, bad things, but remain somehow likable.  I was rooting for Walter White right up to the end.  I am also rooting for Jimmy/Saul against Chuck, despite all of Jimmy's past, present and future misdeeds.  

I think there were holes in the green road sign when Mike was doing his sniper thing, but not in the red Alto sign.  

Imagine my confusion then as someone who went into Breaking Bad predisposed to love Walter White because I adore Bryan Cranston, and came to completely loathe Walter, despite feeling sympathy for him at the start and rooting for him for a good ways into the series.  I was disappointed when the BB spinoff was announced to be featuring Saul, never dreaming the endearing Jimmy McGill lurked in him.

Then again I'm also one who went through BB disliking Hank and Marie -- until my heart broke for them right when I didn't expect it.  That also has much to do with my Walter White antipathy. 

[Clanstarling]

2 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Then again I'm also one who went through BB disliking Hank and Marie -- until my heart broke for them right when I didn't expect it.  That also has much to do with my Walter White antipathy. 

I know - I loved that the guy who was an incredibly obnoxious and offensive person for the most part was, in fact, the guy who was in some ways the hero of the tale, and who died with considerable dignity. What Gilligan does so brilliantly is give his characters depth, they have flaws, they are inconsistent, but they are very, very, human.

[Bryce Lynch]

10 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I agree. However, I didn't find Walter White particularly likeable, at least not after the first season or two. Fascinating, yes. Likeable, no.

Maybe "likable" is the wrong word.  But, I was still rooting for him.  I think part of it was that while he made a couple of choices to do things that were very wrong, he was generally cornered into to doing most of the bad things he did, though of course the very, wrong decisions that he made (e.g. turning down Gretchen and Elliot, turning down the buyout from Declan) started the chains of events that put his back up against the wall.  

[scenario]

27 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

 

Imagine my confusion then as someone who went into Breaking Bad predisposed to love Walter White because I adore Bryan Cranston, and came to completely loathe Walter, despite feeling sympathy for him at the start and rooting for him for a good ways into the series.  I was disappointed when the BB spinoff was announced to be featuring Saul, never dreaming the endearing Jimmy McGill lurked in him.

Then again I'm also one who went through BB disliking Hank and Marie -- until my heart broke for them right when I didn't expect it.  That also has much to do with my Walter White antipathy. 

To me a lot of it was cultural roles, images and masks. Hank was a cop who projected an image of toxic masculinity. But as I got to know him, I realized much of the macho bs was a mask over a very decent person. Both Marie and Skyler appeared to be over privileged people who had good lives but nothing was good enough for them. Walter looked like a beaten man who was angry because everything he worked for was stolen from him. But as the show went on, I realized that Walter was the mask and Heisenberg was the real person. Walter was what he was because Heisenberg's ego had made one poor decision after another and rather than admit it, he'd double down and make the situation worse. At first Skyler annoyed me but I realized that she had known about Heisenberg all along and was both attracted to and feared him. He had been manipulating her for years to bring out all of her bad traits to make him look good. 

Who are the real Jimmy and Chuck. It's becoming clear that Chuck under it all is a manipulative control freak. But is Jimmy, Slippin Jimmy or Saul the real Jimmy? Maybe Gene is the real one, but I doubt it. Whose the mask and whose the person? Chuck could have chosen to try to get Jimmy to be the real Jimmy but all's he's done is to alienate him and to encourage Slipping Jimmy to come out.

[Tikichick]

My suspicion is Jimmy's anger and desire to jam his thumb repeatedly into Chuck's eye will encourage all of the worst of Slippin' Jimmy to put on a very public show as Saul, so much so that he cannot be avoided.   I fear Jimmy will struggle to assert control over the creature he creates and will be harder and harder to see or hear.

[Tikichick]

2 hours ago, benteen said:

I've said this before but I don't think it was necessarily wrong for Chuck not to want Jimmy to join HHM the moment Jimmy got his law degree.  Given Jimmy's past history, the fact that Chuck didn't know that Jimmy was going for his law degree and the fact that he literally just passed the bar, I don't think this entitled Jimmy to a job.  Chuck and Hamlin both could have handled that situation better.  When he brought them the Sandpiper case, then it was bullshit not to give Jimmy an office.

Chuck is Frank Grimes from The Simpsons, aka Grimey.

I don't think Chuck gives a damn about Kim or Ernesto though I agree, I think he doesn't want to see a promising young lawyer "ruin" herself by associating with Jimmy.  He views most people as peasants though, unworthy of him.

If Chuck were in fact the brother he held himself up as, and the brother Jimmy believed he had, he didn't need to take Jimmy into HHM to be supportive and help his brother get on the right track, professionally and personally.  It makes complete sense not to bring Jimmy into HHM initially.  It's the rest of Chuck's behavior that is problematic.

[benteen]

16 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

If Chuck were in fact the brother he held himself up as, and the brother Jimmy believed he had, he didn't need to take Jimmy into HHM to be supportive and help his brother get on the right track, professionally and personally.  It makes complete sense not to bring Jimmy into HHM initially.  It's the rest of Chuck's behavior that is problematic.

100% this.

Chuck could have done more to support him early on and I would assume that Jimmy had kept himself out of a trouble for a long time while he worked in the mail room.  That could have been the basis for Chuck to have been more supportive on him but he wasn't.

[Tikichick]

4 minutes ago, benteen said:

100% this.

Chuck could have done more to support him early on and I would assume that Jimmy had kept himself out of a trouble for a long time while he worked in the mail room.  That could have been the basis for Chuck to have been more supportive on him but he wasn't.

Not to mention he went to great lengths to hide the fact he was the one preventing Jimmy from joining the firm.   That's very telling.

[Eulipian 5k]

Of all the professions Slippin' Jimmy would go into, he picks the hardest one, (part time law school). One that relies heavily on reputation, that his brother has worked at twice as hard to establish himself and HHM in. That seem like the original provocation in this feud. When Jimmy goes down it will reflect on Chuck, so he had a reason to protect HHM and himself by steering Jimmy into say, the car wash industr, (Have an A-1 day). Jimmy chose law to spite Chuck, IMHO, and maybe gain from his brother's reputation while at the same time dragging down the family name. That would send Chuck off the deep end ; never mind messing up his dad's business and (possibly) Chuck's marriage.  Just sayin'.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Eulipian 5k
de grammarrrgh.

[Bryce Lynch]

29 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Not to mention he went to great lengths to hide the fact he was the one preventing Jimmy from joining the firm.   That's very telling.

I have mixed feelings about that.  Would it really have been better for Jimmy to know that Chuck didn't trust him or take him seriously as a lawyer, and was the reason he couldn't get be a lawyer, at HHM, rather than think it was Howard?  Chuck seems to be Jimmy's only relative.  Would it be better or worse for him to hate his only brother?

 It was sort of like Chuck not telling Jimmy that their mother called for him on her deathbed.  It could be viewed as Chuck being self serving, Chuck wanting to shield Jimmy from unnecessary hurt, or a bit of both.  

I totally get Chuck not wanting to hire Jimmy.  I doubt HHM has any associates with "degrees" from the University of American Samoa (Go, Land Crabs!), who they know had been con artists in their former lives.    It was sort of presumptuous for Jimmy to assume Chuck would hire him, as soon as he told him he passed the bar exam.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[Ailianna]

On 4/25/2017 at 1:49 AM, Irlandesa said:

We'll see where they go but I don't see how it'd be a credible legal threat.  First, as far as we know, Chuck has not been officially diagnosed with a mental illness and even if he had been, I'm not sure how it'd be relevant at trial.  But even if he had been diagnosed with a mental illness and even if he were able to bring this up in court, as far as we know, there's zero evidence that his condition has affected the quality of the work he chooses to do.  Mental illness does not automatically make a person incompetent or incapable at their jobs.

The only way I could see it having negative repercussions for HHM is because Jimmy would know which buttons to push on the stand and Chuck could have a meltdown.

The issue with Chuck's mental health is that it affects his credibility and suggests that he may be wrong about his testimony, mistaken about his testimony, lying about his testimony, or even just out in alien land and no connection to reality.  That is why his mental health is important for Jimmy's defense.  And the same reason why keeping things relatively quiet (there were some big group meetings, including fold from Davis & Main) where everyone had to make all those special measures to placate him.  So he hasn't been entirely secretive about the issue, but the depth of it is what people don't know.

[scenario]

7 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I have mixed feelings about that.  Would it really have been better for Jimmy to know that Chuck didn't trust him or take him seriously as a lawyer, and was the reason he couldn't get be a lawyer, at HHM, rather than think it was Howard?  Chuck seems to be Jimmy's only relative.  Would it be better or worse for him to hate his only brother?

 It was sort of like Chuck not telling Jimmy that their mother called for him on her deathbed.  It could be viewed as Chuck being self serving, Chuck wanting to shield Jimmy from unnecessary hurt, or a bit of both.  

I totally get Chuck not wanting to hire Jimmy.  I doubt HHM has any associates with "degrees" from the University of American Samoa (Go, Land Crabs!), who they know had been con artists in their former lives.    It was sort of presumptuous for Jimmy to assume Chuck would hire him, as soon as he told him he passed the bar exam.

Chuck played the whole situation wrong. He pushed Jimmy into becoming Saul. Once he found out that Jimmy was a lawyer, he could have sweet talked him into starting his own firm. Give him a loan. Look like the supportive older brother.  "You don't want to look like someone who was just handed everything. We both know how hard you worked for it. I want you to stand on your own..." Then steer him into elder law which Jimmy is good at. Then offer him a legal assistant part time at HHM's expense. That would give him a spy on the inside.

Then one of two things could happen. Jimmy goes back to his old ways and Chuck "reluctantly" turns him in looking like the good guy to everyone. Or he goes straight and Chuck looks like the older brother whose got a somewhat embarrassing but honest younger brother that he helped out. If his friends at the country club mention Jimmy, Chuck just shakes his head and says something like "That's my brother. I think he's always wanted to go into show business."  And then gives a knowing laugh. Probably a third of them have an embarrassing relative. To them, Jimmy's got a job and he's working hard and its kind of cute he wanted to follow in the footsteps of his much more talented brother. 

The problem is that Chuck is a lot like Walter White. On the surface, he is a very careful, meticulous man. Under it all, he is a man ruled by his negative emotions. If things in Chucks life really broke bad, I could see him becoming a lot like Heisenberg. I'm not sure about Jimmy yet. 

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I have mixed feelings about that.  Would it really have been better for Jimmy to know that Chuck didn't trust him or take him seriously as a lawyer, and was the reason he couldn't get be a lawyer, rather than think it was Howard?  Chuck seems to be Jimmy's only relative.  Would it be better or worse for him to hate his only brother?

 It was sort of like Chuck not telling Jimmy that their mother called for him on her deathbed.  It could be viewed as Chuck being self serving, Chuck wanting to shield Jimmy from unnecessary hurt, or a bit of both.  

I totally get Chuck not wanting to hire Jimmy.  I doubt HHM has any associates with "degrees" from the University of American Samoa (Go, Land Crabs!), who they know had been con artists in their former lives.    It was sort of presumptuous for Jimmy to assume Chuck would hire him, as soon as he told him he passed the bar exam.

I understand Chuck not wanting to hire Jimmy also.  Curiously he did arrange for him to work at HHM in the mailroom.  I don't suspect HHM would hire anyone else knowing they have a past as a con artist.  I don't think Jimmy went to work in the HHM mailroom when he came to town because that was the one and only menial job he could have obtained.  Chuck decided that was what was going to happen & Jimmy was required to go along with the program.  That was fine with Chuck because Chuck looked good and Jimmy was in a subservient and menial role.

Chuck probably even encouraged the law school idea, assuming Jimmy could never manage even toughing it out as a Land Crab.  It seems Howard was tasked with publicly overseeing Jimmy to maintain Chuck's facade and may have been surprised and a bit impressed that Jimmy stuck it out.  Was it enough to convince Howard to let Jimmy hang his shingle at HHM?  Maybe, maybe not.   Jimmy struck out on his own and did whatever he had to do to put together a practice.  Even when it was revealed that Chuck was the one keeping Jimmy out at HHM Jimmy was hurt, yet came to accept it as his due, not holding it against Chuck.   Even when being very patronizingly instructed how to remove tape from a wall and finding the tedious method and chore completely frustrating Jimmy stifles his natural instincts and accepts his brother's rude micromanagement as his lot in life, preferring to reflect back on happy memories of the past.   He never sees the bad in Chuck until it smacks him in the face -- and when it does you hear his heart break about the destruction of their family.   He thought Chuck was his moral compass. 

[Captanne]

The only real disconnect for me is the character of Jimmy -- who is so sweet, smart, and fun (what I think Kim loves about him), and yet who is so blinded by his brother.  Chuck clearly and deep-seededly hates Jimmy.  (See my comment at the top of the page.)  

The disconnect for me is why Jimmy is blind to that.  Not that he IS blind to it but WHY.

[Broderbits]

13 minutes ago, Captanne said:

The only real disconnect for me is the character of Jimmy -- who is so sweet, smart, and fun (what I think Kim loves about him), and yet who is so blinded by his brother.  Chuck clearly and deep-seededly hates Jimmy.  (See my comment at the top of the page.)  

The disconnect for me is why Jimmy is blind to that.  Not that he IS blind to it but WHY.

I have no siblings so this is just a guess, but I think it's similar to children who have abused by their parents and still love them and want their approval. Some people just can't accept that such a close blood relative would hate them and want to cause them harm. Jimmy had a kind of innocent sweetness to his feelings for Chuck, feelings that Chuck has thoroughly stomped on and tossed in the garbage.

[Tikichick]

19 minutes ago, Captanne said:

The only real disconnect for me is the character of Jimmy -- who is so sweet, smart, and fun (what I think Kim loves about him), and yet who is so blinded by his brother.  Chuck clearly and deep-seededly hates Jimmy.  (See my comment at the top of the page.)  

The disconnect for me is why Jimmy is blind to that.  Not that he IS blind to it but WHY.

Absolutely right.  The kid who recognized his dad getting conned never has any inkling what his brother is up to?

Kind of bleeds into my next big curiosity, what fueled Chuck's envy of Jimmy in the first place?  What really got the ball rolling before the situation with his wife?

[Captanne]

I have one sibling who is much older than I.  She is an emotional abuser par excelance.  She is amazingly abusive.  After a youth spent as the brunt of her anger, I spent many years away from home in the military.  When I returned from Shield and Storm, she went right back to her abusive ways.  It took me until I sobered up and turned 50 for me to finally cut her out of my life.  (TMI?)  

That said, I kind of see what Jimmy is going through but -- well, okay.  Maybe I do get it now that I've put my own experience into words.

My therapy cheque is in the virtual mail to all of you guys and the entire Internet.  Thanks!  I feel so much better now.

 

LOLOL  :-) 

[Ohwell]

36 minutes ago, Broderbits said:

I have no siblings so this is just a guess, but I think it's similar to children who have abused by their parents and still love them and want their approval. Some people just can't accept that such a close blood relative would hate them and want to cause them harm. Jimmy had a kind of innocent sweetness to his feelings for Chuck, feelings that Chuck has thoroughly stomped on and tossed in the garbage.

Exactly.

[Bryce Lynch]

48 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I understand Chuck not wanting to hire Jimmy also.  Curiously he did arrange for him to work at HHM in the mailroom.  I don't suspect HHM would hire anyone else knowing they have a past as a con artist.  I don't think Jimmy went to work in the HHM mailroom when he came to town because that was the one and only menial job he could have obtained.  Chuck decided that was what was going to happen & Jimmy was required to go along with the program.  That was fine with Chuck because Chuck looked good and Jimmy was in a subservient and menial role.

Chuck probably even encouraged the law school idea, assuming Jimmy could never manage even toughing it out as a Land Crab.  It seems Howard was tasked with publicly overseeing Jimmy to maintain Chuck's facade and may have been surprised and a bit impressed that Jimmy stuck it out.  Was it enough to convince Howard to let Jimmy hang his shingle at HHM?  Maybe, maybe not.   Jimmy struck out on his own and did whatever he had to do to put together a practice.  Even when it was revealed that Chuck was the one keeping Jimmy out at HHM Jimmy was hurt, yet came to accept it as his due, not holding it against Chuck.   Even when being very patronizingly instructed how to remove tape from a wall and finding the tedious method and chore completely frustrating Jimmy stifles his natural instincts and accepts his brother's rude micromanagement as his lot in life, preferring to reflect back on happy memories of the past.   He never sees the bad in Chuck until it smacks him in the face -- and when it does you hear his heart break about the destruction of their family.   He thought Chuck was his moral compass. 

In the opening flashback in episode 108, it is clear that Chuck had absolutely no idea that Jimmy was going to law school.  

When Jimmy found out that Chuck had blocked him earlier and again in the present with Sandpiper, he did hold it against Chuck..  At the end of the "Your'e not a real lawyer"/"Chimp with a machine gun" conversation Jimmy tells Chuck that he had gotten him some ice, food and gas canisters to last him for a few day, but after that he was on his own, and walked out while Chuck called, "Jimmy, Jimmy."

I rewatched that scene.  Chuck's behavior, as usual, was interesting and complex.  He started out by yelling about how Jimmy wasn't a real lawyer and that his online degree wasn't legitimate.  He then went on about how hard he had worked and how he dedicated his life to the law, and then Jimmy comes along, cuts corners and considers himself his "peer".  You can see his jealousy towards Jimmy in that.

But then, he goes on to say:

 "I know you. I know what you were, what you are. People don't change. You're Slippin' Jimmy. And Slippin' Jimmy I can handle just fine. But Slippin' Jimmy with a law degree is like a chimp with a machine gun. The law is sacred! If you abuse that power, people get hurt. This is not a game. You have to know... On some level, I know you know I'm right. You know I'm right."

Chuck seems very passionate and totally sincere while giving these lines.  I have no doubt that, while he resent Jimmy getting away with cutting corners, he absolutely believes that Jimmy being a lawyer will cause people to get hurt.  

Regarding the tape on the wall, Jimmy realized that Chuck was right, and that his method was taking the varnish off the wood.     

[JudyObscure]

38 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Kind of bleeds into my next big curiosity, what fueled Chuck's envy of Jimmy in the first place?  What really got the ball rolling before the situation with his wife?

I think it's just a classic case of, "Mom always liked him best."  We know that, while growing up, Jimmy stole enough money from their father's store to ultimately ruin the business and break their father's heart.  By flash-back we know he was a kind compassionate, rather naïve man who didn't deserve to be cheated by his own son.  In spite of all that, Jimmy remained their mother's favorite.

Finally as Bryce Lynch says above, Jimmy gets a law degree through what Chuck sees as half the effort, and fears that combined with what Chuck knows about Jimmy's past, he's right to be jealous and afraid of Jimmy with a law degree.

[Tikichick]

57 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

In the opening flashback in episode 108, it is clear that Chuck had absolutely no idea that Jimmy was going to law school.  

When Jimmy found out that Chuck had blocked him earlier and again in the present with Sandpiper, he did hold it against Chuck..  At the end of the "Your'e not a real lawyer"/"Chimp with a machine gun" conversation Jimmy tells Chuck that he had gotten him some ice, food and gas canisters to last him for a few day, but after that he was on his own, and walked out while Chuck called, "Jimmy, Jimmy."

I rewatched that scene.  Chuck's behavior, as usual, was interesting and complex.  He started out by yelling about how Jimmy wasn't a real lawyer and that his online degree wasn't legitimate.  He then went on about how hard he had worked and how he dedicated his life to the law, and then Jimmy comes along, cuts corners and considers himself his "peer".  You can see his jealousy towards Jimmy in that.

But then, he goes on to say:

 "I know you. I know what you were, what you are. People don't change. You're Slippin' Jimmy. And Slippin' Jimmy I can handle just fine. But Slippin' Jimmy with a law degree is like a chimp with a machine gun. The law is sacred! If you abuse that power, people get hurt. This is not a game. You have to know... On some level, I know you know I'm right. You know I'm right."

Chuck seems very passionate and totally sincere while giving these lines.  I have no doubt that, while he resent Jimmy getting away with cutting corners, he absolutely believes that Jimmy being a lawyer will cause people to get hurt.  

Regarding the tape on the wall, Jimmy realized that Chuck was right, and that his method was taking the varnish off the wood.     

Chuck seemed totally sincere when he told Ernesto he would be just sick if something happened to him -- while he was baiting the trap and reeling him in.

No doubt Chuck in part viewed Jimmy getting a law degree as Jimmy's pathetic attempt to imitate him and was flattered to a certain extent.  He wasn't worried about anybody else but himself if Jimmy practiced as a lawyer.  He was worried about how it would reflect on him, and worse, what would happen if Jimmy was actually any good at it?  He carefully inserted himself into the situation when Jimmy was uncovering the Sandpiper situation.  Yes, Jimmy asked his input.  But Chuck was careful to co opt and assert control.

[Bryce Lynch]

3 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Chuck seemed totally sincere when he told Ernesto he would be just sick if something happened to him -- while he was baiting the trap and reeling him in.

No doubt Chuck in part viewed Jimmy getting a law degree as Jimmy's pathetic attempt to imitate him and was flattered to a certain extent.  He wasn't worried about anybody else but himself if Jimmy practiced as a lawyer.  He was worried about how it would reflect on him, and worse, what would happen if Jimmy was actually any good at it?  He carefully inserted himself into the situation when Jimmy was uncovering the Sandpiper situation.  Yes, Jimmy asked his input.  But Chuck was careful to co opt and assert control.

Chuck's "concern" for Ernie was transparently fake.  Only someone as sweet and gullible as Ernie would fall for it. 

Watch the scene between Chuck and Jimmy. I think it is clear that Chuck feels both petty jealousy and sincere fear and dread about Slippin' Jimmy being a lawyer. 

That is one of the things that makes the characters and BB and BCS so great.  They often have mixed motives.  

 

[ShadowFacts]

4 hours ago, scenario said:

Who are the real Jimmy and Chuck. It's becoming clear that Chuck under it all is a manipulative control freak. But is Jimmy, Slippin Jimmy or Saul the real Jimmy? Maybe Gene is the real one, but I doubt it. Whose the mask and whose the person? Chuck could have chosen to try to get Jimmy to be the real Jimmy but all's he's done is to alienate him and to encourage Slipping Jimmy to come out.

I think Jimmy right now is still a pretty far ways from the Saul we meet in BB.  Saul was great comic relief, but he was also pretty hard-bitten and even ruthless (suggesting someone go to Belize more than once, I think).  We haven't seen that lack of compassion in Jimmy yet, in fact quite the opposite.  Telling Chuck to shove it and fighting him in court is just a first step. I feel like things need to get pretty much worse, Chuck's backstabbing isn't the whole story, and Kim must play into the transformation yet to come. 

[Clanstarling]

5 hours ago, scenario said:

But as the show went on, I realized that Walter was the mask and Heisenberg was the real person.

That's it in a nutshell, imo. Excellent observation.

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Chuck seems very passionate and totally sincere while giving these lines.  I have no doubt that, while he resent Jimmy getting away with cutting corners, he absolutely believes that Jimmy being a lawyer will cause people to get hurt.

Oh absolutely. But life and history's full of passionate and sincere people who've done more damage than good.

[Bryce Lynch]

21 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

That's it in a nutshell, imo. Excellent observation.

Oh absolutely. But life and history's full of passionate and sincere people who've done more damage than good.

Oh, I am not saying what Chuck is doing with Jimmy is "good"  My point is he is a complex character with complex motivations.  He is neither writen or acted as a one dimensional villain  

He is full of both petty jealousy and legitimate concern about Slippin Jimmy being a lawyer 

Ah, but he's just being silly.  It's not like he will be involved with kids being poisoned and shot to death or DEA agent being murdered. ;)

[Clanstarling]

23 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Oh, I am not saying what Chuck is doing with Jimmy is "good"  My point is he is a complex character with complex motivations.  He is neither writen or acted as a one dimensional villain  

He is full of both petty jealousy and legitimate concern about Slippin Jimmy being a lawyer 

Ah, but he's just being silly.  It's not like he will be involved with kids being poisoned and shot to death or DEA agent being murdered. ;)

LOL. I concur, the complexity of the characters are what attracts me to these shows.

[ShadowFacts]

I notice in the clip above that Chuck tells Jimmy that people don't change.  Does he apply that pearl of wisdom to himself?  Has he always been a controlling, condescending, jealous, bitter person?  In addition to a great legal mind, of course  . . . does he see the speck in Jimmy's eye while having a plank in his own?  I acknowledge that he has shown familial concern for Jimmy at various times, and exhibits some sporadic warmth (very little), and that is why it is pretty tragic that he allows the nastier impulses to cut Jimmy down to size swallow up his connection to the only person who cares/cared about him.