S12.E19: The Future

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Boopsahoy said:

I cried out Noooo the Colt!!! That really saddened me. But I guess the colt is like full strength Cas-it would make it too easy for them.

ME TOO! I actually shed a tear. 

They seriously didn't have to KILL IT! They could have made it like a MacGuffin. Let it keep being stolen by someone new. Make sure no one else has the right recipe for the bullets. Just let it pass from person to person and get it off screen.

It was an unnecessary death of a beloved object.  And since they kill the Colt I'm even MORE terrified for Baby. :(

BAD SHOW! BAD BAD BAD!

[Wayward Son]

Haven't seen the episode yet, but I've heard enough to be deeply upset. 

 

Lucifer Cas last season and now this... I think I've reached my breaking point. Just write him off the show. I'm sick and tired of not being allowed to have ONE just one season where he doesn't turn on them and / or messes up in some major way. 

[Boopsahoy]

13 minutes ago, SueB said:

Everything Team Free Will.

When Dean said that I must admit some dust blew into my eyes makin them tear up. :-)

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

I have no idea why the show takes the position that a half-demon (Jesse) or a half-archangel (Sproutifer) would be more powerful than a full demon or a full archangel.  Then again, this is SPN, so I guess...reasons?

It's an anti-inbreeding thing.  The different blood mixed in allows the powers not to be restrained. 

[Boopsahoy]

16 minutes ago, SueB said:

I LOVED the original Joshua.  This was NOT him. 

I was so excited to see him and then there's this young white dude  standing there-WTH I really liked the original actor.

[ZennyKenny]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The tape was his  fav Zeppelin songs so I'm going with

Ramble On
Travelin Riverside Blues
Stairway to Heaven
Kashmir
Whole Lotta Love
Dazed and Confused
Immigrant Song
The Song Remains the Same

 

 

Now I wanna go back and see if it was a 60-minute or 90-minute cassette, so that I can figure out how many songs are on it.

[Boopsahoy]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And since they kill the Colt I'm even MORE terrified for Baby. :(

I don't think Jensen would let them kill "baby".

[rue721]

@Lemuria

Quote

I have no idea why the show takes the position that a half-demon (Jesse) or a half-archangel (Sproutifer) would be more powerful than a full demon or a full archangel.  Then again, this is SPN, so I guess...reasons?

I think within the world of the show, the idea is that the power of the half-human/half-supernatural person's human soul supercharges his inborn angel grace/demonic power.

But it all creeps me out and I cannot tell you how much I hate these blood purity storylines. Bleh

That said, I am really not surprised that the show is emphasizing one so much during the same season that we've got Hitler appearing on screen and the BMOL fascists invading. The show seems to be going SOMEWHERE with this.

Edited April 28, 2017 by rue721
contexxxt

[Lemuria]

Quote

It's an anti-inbreeding thing.  The different blood mixed in allows the powers not to be restrained. 

Katy M, I apologize but I don't understand that .  Angels and demons don't seem to "breed"; the only offspring we've ever heard about was with humans.  And that should dilute the power not increase it.

Rue721, I applaud your optimism.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Lemuria

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

I was so excited to see him and then there's this young white dude  standing there-WTH I really liked the original actor.

On the plus side, they did kill the young white dude instead of the original Joshua.  Maybe he's still up in Heaven and just sent this other guy to be chum??

11 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

I don't think Jensen would let them kill "baby".

As much power as he has, if they want to kill Baby they will :(. They'll just have to deal with his wrath. I don't think I'd want to be on the receiving end of that! LOL

[catrox14]

54 minutes ago, SueB said:

That truck looks old enough for a tape player. 

Am I the only person who keeps thinking about that poor farmer who just woke up to his truck missing. Did he report it stolen? Is that dumb truck going to get Cas arrested?

[SueB]

34 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Boy, that was bad and really boring.  Lots of stupid people.  And stupid angels.  And stupid demons--I mean, Dagon is going to rule alongside Luci.  Rule what?  She says that Sproutifer is going to kill all the disgusting angels and humans and demons.  So, she wants to be Queen of--what? rutabagas?  What else would be left?  (Hopefully, Asmodeus only want revenge.  A good reason that has stood the test of time.  lol)

Dean not only cannot get a kill but he also doesn't do any research anymore or come up with any ideas or plans.  Except that one time when he didn't know who he was.  Maybe someone should hit him on the head.

Why they brought back either Joshua or the Colt is beyond me.  

I have no idea why the show takes the position that a half-demon (Jesse) or a half-archangel (Sproutifer) would be more powerful than a full demon or a full archangel.  Then again, this is SPN, so I guess...reasons?

Because a hybrid between Angel and human has BOTH a soul and grace, I think a case can be made for it to be more powerful.

I have NO explanation for Jesse ... but they had the story and dropped the story immediately. Conversely, the Nephilim story, when has both precedent and been a focal point for half a year.  So yeah, going with BOTH soul and grace -- means it's both AC and DC (see the WTF'ery thread for my theory on power of soul vs grace).  Hey, AC/DC... I'm just sayin'... (I'll show myself out).

[catrox14]

TIPPI TV is slaying on this episode LOLO

Lhttp://tippitv.tumblr.com/post/160069271432/how-that-due-date-talk-shouldve-gone

 

Quote

tippitv

How that “due date” talk should’ve gone

Dean: So when’s the nephilim gonna be born?

Sam: Around the middle of May. That’s when the worst stuff happens every year, like the time you, me, and Dad almost died in a demonic wreck.

Dean: Oh yeah…remember when all the demons got loose from Hell?

Sam: It was also the middle of May when Hellhounds dragged you off.

Dean: Hell’s so much less scary now, though, isn’t it?

Sam: It sure is. But not back when I inadvertently freed Lucifer in the middle of May.

Dean: We plopped you, and Lucifer and Michael into the cage in mid-May, too.

Sam: You and Cas got sucked into Purgatory around mid-May, too.

Dean: And you were gonna finish the Hell trials in mid-May, but I stopped ya.

Sam: Then all the angels fell because of that a-hole Metatron.

Dean: Right…right.. It wasn’t mid-May when I died and woke up a demon, though.

Sam: True, but it was just after, so I think it counts. Same thing with killing Death and unleashing the Darkness.

Dean: Should we count the Chuck and Amara thing? That was the end of May, as I recall.

Sam: Yeah, but the big fight was really the week before—so, mid-May, again.

Castiel: *suddenly appears* Hey, what month did I turn into a sack of Leviathan goo?

Sam: That was, May, too!

Dean: *meaningful pained glances*

[SueB]

35 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Haven't seen the episode yet, but I've heard enough to be deeply upset. 

 

Lucifer Cas last season and now this... I think I've reached my breaking point. Just write him off the show. I'm sick and tired of not being allowed to have ONE just one season where he doesn't turn on them and / or messes up in some major way. 

Have FAITH.  Not everyone is buying into the "stupid Cas" concept. 

30 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Now I wanna go back and see if it was a 60-minute or 90-minute cassette, so that I can figure out how many songs are on it.

13  It said 13 top songs.

 

And it was a GIFT!

[catrox14]

Just now, SueB said:

Have FAITH.  Not everyone is buying into the "stupid Cas" concept. 

I'm sure you can understand how this would be a complete about face for Cas. Unless Cas gets the win and then DEAD :(

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, SueB said:

Because a hybrid between Angel and human has BOTH a soul and grace, I think a case can be made for it to be more powerful.

I have NO explanation for Jesse ... but they had the story and dropped the story immediately. Conversely, the Nephilim story, when has both precedent and been a focal point for half a year.  So yeah, going with BOTH soul and grace -- means it's both AC and DC (see the WTF'ery thread for my theory on power of soul vs grace).  Hey, AC/DC... I'm just sayin'... (I'll show myself out).

Maybe because if Jesse was half demon/half human, he would have all the powers of the demon without any of the weaknesses, such as being subject to devil's traps.  And he's in his own body, which for some reason I think is a demonic advantage.  And I'm still going with the two blood types making you stronger.  It is too late for me to have a coherent discussion about made up stuff.

[SueB]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I'm sure you can understand how this would be a complete about face for Cas. Unless Cas gets the win and then DEAD :(

I think Cas is due for "good".  I go back to Carver's original concept.  Sam and Dean (at the end of S11) were in a good place as brothers.  Crowley was in a bad place but he'd had SO much character attention.  Cas has not.  THIS, IMO, is Cas' time to shine. Literally and figuratively.

I'm telling 'ya.  I'm like Kelly... I just FEEL IT.  

Feel free to laugh and point at me if Cas is wrong about the baby.  

Now, I DO think it'll all turn to shit. But it won't be because the Baby is inherently evil.  That's my position.  

[Boopsahoy]

Oh almost forgot-Did anyone's heart skip a beat when Dean said he slept with the colt under his pillow?? "I like to keep it close"

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

Oh almost forgot-Did anyone's heart skip a beat when Dean said he slept with the colt under his pillow?? "I like to keep it close"

He did the same thing in Dark Side of the Moon. I guess he was really worried about the Colt LOL

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He did the same thing in Dark Side of the Moon. I guess he was really worried about the Colt LOL

I think he just likes having a weapon close.  It had to have been a different gun in Dark Side of the Moon. And he slept with a knife under his pillow in Phantom Traveler  I would think it would be uncomfortable. And the way I toss and turn, possibly dangerous.

[catrox14]

Just now, Katy M said:

I think he just likes having a weapon close.  It had to have been a different gun in Dark Side of the Moon. And he slept with a knife under his pillow in Phantom Traveler  I would think it would be uncomfortable. And the way I toss and turn, possibly dangerous.

Sorry I wasn't clear. Obviously it wasn't the Colt in DSoTM. It was his Pearl Handled Colt. My point is that Dean keeps weapons under his pillow.

[Lemuria]

Quote

And I'm still going with the two blood types making you stronger. 

Angels are "interdimensional wavelengths of celestial intent" and demons are smoke.  Neither has a blood type.  Or blood, for that matter.

[ZennyKenny]

31 minutes ago, SueB said:

13  It said 13 top songs.

Ah. Definitely a 60-minute then. Even with longer songs like Kashmir and No Quarter, 13 songs would still be under an hour. And leaving that much blank space on either side of a 90-minute tape would be an amateur move; no way that Dean would do that!

Edited April 28, 2017 by ZennyKenny

[roctavia]

Lucifer didn't start off evil, right? I mean initially he was one of gods favs until he misbehaved and got cast out... right? Unless they've changed that story. So sure, Lucifer is a total dick now, but even if we are talking nature/nurture, Kelly is a relatively "good" person and while we don't know the genetics of archangel baby making, it makes sense to me that this baby would start off as sort of blank slate. Sure, plenty of power and a self preservation instinct... which if Lucifer gets ahold of baby, evil will be easily embraced... but if they can keep the baby away from Lucifer, I could see it going a different direction.

I am curious what future the baby showed Cass... and if it's real. But I suppose only time will tell if Cass got conned again, or if he can finally have a win and a new purpose.

[rue721]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

And the way I toss and turn, possibly dangerous.

Yeah, I had an ex that had a hangup about this (always wanted to sleep with a gun under his pillow) and it TERRIFIED me. We lived together, and he would have these awful nightmares where he wouldn't quite sleepwalk but very close -- VERY active "sleep." I was so afraid that he'd have a nightmare one night and I'd end up shot dead.

I can believe that Dean wants a weapon at hand at all times, but the idea still freaks me out. *shudder*

[Myrelle]

This episode seemed so long. I thought it was never going to end. But then it did. Thankfully.

I think that the future that Cas saw is not what he thinks it is, so in that way I think he's being played. I further think that Baby Lucifer knows who to play in order to ensure that it's not only born, but born with all of it's powers fully functional and intact. Survival as a very powerful supernatural being is the first order of business on it's mind. Kelly is goner, IMO. She's only being allowed to live to give birth, and even she knows that. That said, I'm sure that once the baby is born the brothers will try to help Cas protect it from Daddy's influence because they are not baby killers-not even monster babies. The question will then become will Lucifer get to raise his "son" and if so, how amenable will said son be to Daddy's input and wishes. Heh. Chuck/God must be laughing his head off.

And this is where this show is headed. Oy.

Nothing new, otherwise. I'd be mad if apathy hadn't settled in to stay after last week's episode.

[catrox14]

I love that the doors still squeak on Baby. That's such a great thing that Jensen won't let them change.

[auntvi]

So if the half human - half archangel child is more powerful than an archangel, will he be more powerful than Lucifer? Is a cage match between Lucifer Sr. & Lucifer Jr. coming?

[catrox14]

Damn, Dagon broke Dean's arm.  It cracked and went the wrong way.  Thank goodness Cas has some healing mojo back!

[catrox14]

Man, Cas knocking them both out , especially with Dean saying "Don't" and then the violin theme (Tears in my Beers yes that's the name of it) kicking in... F/U SHOW. That made me cry.  Oh Cas, baby. Please know what you are doing. I'm so scared :(

[Mick Lady]

I feel horrible! I didn't give catrox her countdown! Sorry catrox!

Haven't read the thread, because I recorded the show. The NFL draft was on, and I live for football!!

[Dobian]

That was pretty kickass.  Of course, Cas has super duper powers again.  That didn't turn out so good the last time, if I recall.

[Geordiegirl1967]

Hmm. Quick first impressions (it's 6am in the U.K. - I'm off to bed)

Likes

+ Kelly. She's turning into a strong likeable character 

+ Sam not buying Cas's act

Dislikes

- losing the Colt! So pointless. All that lore, all that story potential, the '5 things it couldn't kill' all wiped out in an unbelievably casual anticlimactic way

- the angel spilling the beans to Dagon about the entrance to heaven just cause she inflicted some pain on him. Sorry didn't buy that.

- ditto Joshua. I mean REALLY? The last non evil archangel killed like it's nothing at the click of Dagons finger? There's no canon to support her having that kind of power. I don't think YED did for example. And again, such a waste of that character, canon, potential. 

- the stupid mix tape scene. For goodness sake writers! It's like a 'here's a scene to keep the Destielers going for weeks' labelled anvil. A mix tape? Beyond stupid. It's a tired cliche from an 80s high school drama. Hated that whole scene. And it was in any case all a trick from Cas to get the Colt. How many times does Cas have to lie to/betray Dean and Sam before they stop trusting him? 

- which brings me to my biggest problem. I call it the 'Cas is an idiot' trope. He said it himself in this ep. His judgement is beyond awful. He let Lucifer out. He let Kelly escape. He allied himself with Crowley. He allied himself with the pro Apocalypse angels, and Metatron. All utterly stupid decisions that resulted, just as a few examples, in; letting Sam out to assist in the Apocalypse, letting Lucifer out of the cage, all the angels falling, breaking Sam's wall and nearly destroying him as a result, letting the Leviathans into the world, all the evil God Cas did. And now he's 'team Lucifer junior'! Stellar plan Cas. Because trusting the 'plans' of beings more powerful than you has worked out so well in the past! Grrrrr

- Dean and Sam, you remember them? They're the stars of the show? The heroes? Had no role in this ep at all. They may as well not have been there. Nothing they did affected the events that transpired.  

So overall not too impressed on first watch.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Geordiegirl1967

[Casseiopeia]

7 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

 

- Dean and Sam, you remember them? They're the stars of the show? The heroes? Had no role in this ep at all. They may as well not have been there. Nothing they did affected the events that transpired.  

So overall not too impressed on first watch.

That's not true Dean fixed the truck...

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

 How many times does Cas have to lie to/betray Dean and Sam before they stop trusting him? 

If Sam and Dean still keep trying to trust each other after all the lies between them, I figure Cas being their  brother/best friend has a bit more leeway on the trust front. 

 

22 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Dean and Sam, you remember them? They're the stars of the show? The heroes? Had no role in this ep at all. They may as well not have been there. Nothing they did affected the events that transpired. 

Sam came up with a viable plan to solve the problem which even Cas didn't remember, even though Cas is the one that figured out that process to begin with, but I digress...anyway dumbass baby mama said no  because her Satan spawn won't be special anymore.  Sam planted the app on Cas' phone to track him. Dean fixed the truck so they could catch up with Cas. 

[Wayward Son]

I've watched the episode and will reply after work with proper thoughts! I just wanted to say kudos to Misha for trying his hardest to add some gravitas to some horrendous writing. His acting was superb here! 

[Jediknight]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

That's not true Dean fixed the truck...

And them showing up caused LuciBaby to "side" with them and kill Dagon.  So they did do something in this episode, still everybody in this episode was dumber than a doorknob.

[Commando Cody]

Why didn't Jesse's mom die?  Aside from that Jesse could have gone either good or bad. How old would Jesse be now. Maybe he ended up with Lady Toni.

I couldn't wait for Dagon to die. I was thinking, they better kill her this time. 

After they talked about extracting the baby's grace, I thought it could work out for Castiel. He could be a super charged angel again. Now the kid could go either way. However something has to go bad and I hope it doesn't turn into The Darkness final all over again. 

They really let Mark Pelligrino spread his acting wings - so to speak - in this episode. Impressive. 

RIP colt. at least the BMoLs can't have it. It did raise a question though. The gun worked as a regular gun, but they used the carved bullets. Why wouldn't the special bullets work in any gun? What was it about the colt that the bullets only worked in that gun?

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

RIP colt. at least the BMoLs can't have it. It did raise a question though. The gun worked as a regular gun, but they used the carved bullets. Why wouldn't the special bullets work in any gun? What was it about the colt that the bullets only worked in that gun?

I thought there were sigils or something engraved on the Colt combined with the bullets that allowed it to kill all but 5 things

[lynnea6]

Overall I found this episode on the boring side until the end. I liked that they showed Lucifer showing a (somewhat) scary side with Dagon, but then I started wondering how he could do that with Crowley's lockdown. At least that kept me occupied from harping on the other aggravations of this episode (Joshua and the Colt, really?).

[SueB]

3 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

Why didn't Jesse's mom die?  Aside from that Jesse could have gone either good or bad. How old would Jesse be now. Maybe he ended up with Lady Toni.

I couldn't wait for Dagon to die. I was thinking, they better kill her this time. 

After they talked about extracting the baby's grace, I thought it could work out for Castiel. He could be a super charged angel again. Now the kid could go either way. However something has to go bad and I hope it doesn't turn into The Darkness final all over again. 

They really let Mark Pelligrino spread his acting wings - so to speak - in this episode. Impressive. 

RIP colt. at least the BMoLs can't have it. It did raise a question though. The gun worked as a regular gun, but they used the carved bullets. Why wouldn't the special bullets work in any gun? What was it about the colt that the bullets only worked in that gun?

Well...

Quote

John: Back in 1835, when Halley's comet was overhead, the same night those men died at the Alamo. They say Samuel Colt made a gun. A special gun. 

I'm going to go with you need a comet and possibly a massive blood sacrifice of brave people dying for a cause.  A comet at the very least.

If you look at the spell that opened the portal to Purgatory, it needed an eclipse.  So, maybe any old comet would do. Maybe it HAS to be Haley's.  But I'm thinking it's a spell.  And again, since the "legend" includes the Alamo, potentially a massive 'brave good-guy self-sacrifice blood ritual".  Again, potentially.

Or not.  It's a McGuffin.  

But if a way could have been made to replicate the gun, I bet Bobby would have found it.  That seems like something he would have looked into. 

Don't get me wrong. I fully support mourning the loss of "the Colt".  But I don't know if they'll get another back.

[Katy M]

4 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

Why didn't Jesse's mom die?  Aside from that Jesse could have gone either good or bad. How old would Jesse be now. Maybe he ended up with Lady Toni.

Jesse wasn't a Nephilim, he was half demon/half human.  Not half angel.

[SueB]

Gushfest moment:

I freaking LOVED Sam, Dean and Cas in this episode. There were conflicts but there was such a BOND between these guys.  Gone are the days (at least I hope) where they don't believe in Cas.  I think they really do. And he truly IS their brother.

Which is why Dean was like "you DON'T go radio silent".  I read that to have the silent "YOU COULD HAVE BEEN DYING IN A DITCH."  Seriously, this was anger from worry.  And Cas knew that.  Dean yelling at him is like how you yell at family.  You aren't taking a real hurt at it, you are telling them this is not cool and they OWE YOU to stay in touch.  Because FAMILY.

And Sam didn't put a tracker on Cas because he thought he was a bad guy. He put a tracker on Cas because Cas couldn't look them in the eyes. Which means Sam knew, instinctively, that Cas was gearing up to do something without telling them. Something that would put Cas at risk.  

And then there's the little mix tape moment.  Yes, he played you Dean. But also, how adorable is it that Dean is still having 'teachable moments' with Cas.  It's a gift, you don't return it. Dean gave him a GIFT. Of MUSIC. Yes, a mix tape is classic love story. For those who Destiel -- I think you should totally have a ball with this.  For me, it shows Dean reaching out to Cas to get him to like Dean's music.  It felt like a little everyday thing Dean did with Cas that we got to see. It makes me feel like there are more of those little everyday things.

Cas has his own room!  #15.  That's canon now.  

And Dean fixed the truck.  I think the spark plug was just fouled.  But I like Dean just fixing it.  No "go steal another car."  Besides, it has a tape player in it (I suspect).

Dean kept the Colt under his pillow.  And had the good sense to look a little sheepish about it.  I'm going to mourn the Colt (as will the rest of TFW) but I like that it got it's moment in the sun before it was "killed off".  Kind of the classic "glory moment" for a character before it's killed.  

I think that was Jensen's pissed off face (see last Convention video) when Kelly stole Baby.  I don't ever want to see that pissed off face pointed at me.

I REALLY like the Hotel scene.  First the little "Dagon is hard to kill" shared moment.  Then Cas admitting he didn't want them to have to kill Kelly.  And Dean telling him they didn't need a babysitter. Plus Cas was willing to follow Sam and Dean back to the bunker and talk it out.  He had capitulated. It was Kelly who ran away.  And with Cas in the backseat, that was obvious.

I also liked that Cas was calm enough to let Kelly explain why she was doing what she's doing.  Kelly just knew "stick with Cas and get to the sandbox".  The woman was operating on PURE FAITH.  And Cas, IMO, appreciated that.  

I also like how Sam and Dean were all "oh hell no" when Cas powered up and was Team Baby. I think they are wrong (and Cas is right), but their concern was about Cas IMO and him making another mistake.  

In short -- this episode REALLY cemented that all three are emotionally on the same page, even if not tactically.  They may not agree on how to handle Kelly but they are not giving up on Cas. Not now, not ever.

*Boys* (say it like Hermione Granger). 

[mertensia]

I liked the episode and don't feel that Sam and Dean have to be front and center in every single scene. Or even storyline. 

I do wonder what, exactly, the future shows. Baby Nephilim ruling the world and the angels and the demons as a dictator after having killed Lucifer?  Bringing about world peace?  Maybe the future as Cas wants it to be?

[SueB]

25 minutes ago, mertensia said:

I liked the episode and don't feel that Sam and Dean have to be front and center in every single scene. Or even storyline. 

I do wonder what, exactly, the future shows. Baby Nephilim ruling the world and the angels and the demons as a dictator after having killed Lucifer?  Bringing about world peace?  Maybe the future as Cas wants it to be?

Maybe Baby Nephilim bringing the Angels together? As a human/angel hybrid, perhaps the Baby can fix eons old issues with the angels. 

Also, this is the "Year of the Mother".  Presuming Kelly is nutty it missing (IMO) one of the major seasonal themes. 

[Geordiegirl1967]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 

6 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Dean and Sam, you remember them? They're the stars of the show? The heroes? Had no role in this ep at all. They may as well not have been there. Nothing they did affected the events that transpired. 

Sam came up with a viable plan to solve the problem which even Cas didn't remember, even though Cas is the one that figured out that process to begin with,

But they rejected that plan so it was pointless.

Quote

Sam planted the app on Cas' phone to track him.

Pointless because the scene at the sandbox would have gone down the same way if Sam and Dean had never showed up.

Quote

Dean fixed the truck so they could catch up with Cas. 

Again pointless for the reason above.

Does anyone remember the Big Bang Theory ep where Amy ruins the Indian Jones film Raiders of the Lost Arc for the boys by pointing out that at no point during the entire film did Indy's presence make the slightest difference to how things turned out? Kind of ruined it for me too - and Dabb should apply that test to every ep. If Sam and Dean aren't acting on the events or being affected by them the story needs chucking out and starting again.

So lets test it on this ep without S&D. 

- Cas goes to bunker and gets the Colt (irrelevant whether S&D are there or not to how story progresses)

- meets his angel contact and attacks the house where Dagon and Kelly are. Fight goes down as it did. Cas escapes with Kelly

- Cas takes Kelly to sandbox. Sam & Dean don't turn up. Dagon is there. Colt gets destroyed as does the archangel. Attack on Cas ends as it did in the ep with Lucifer jnr killing Dagon via Cas. Cas and Kelly dance off into the night.

Overall makes zero difference that Dean & Sam were in the ep. If Dabb had applied the Raiders test this ep would have failed spectacularly and would have had to have been rewritten.

[Geordiegirl1967]

1 hour ago, mertensia said:

I liked the episode and don't feel that Sam and Dean have to be front and center in every single scene. Or even storyline. 

Except that there are the heroes, the stars, the protagonists. SPN doesn't work if they don't have a role. So the occasional ep that is more focused on Jody or Claire or Cas or Crowley or whoever is fine, but they HAVE to be the main players in the overall story or SPN is dead.

[Geordiegirl1967]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

7 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

 How many times does Cas have to lie to/betray Dean and Sam before they stop trusting him? 

If Sam and Dean still keep trying to trust each other after all the lies between them, I figure Cas being their  brother/best friend has a bit more leeway on the trust front. 

There is a BIG difference here. Yes Sam and Dean have had their issues, but usually their judgements - that the other didn't share - were made for sound reasons given what they knew. So for example, although killing Lilith turned out to be a terrible decision, Sam made it believing, for good reasons, that Lilith had to be killed - something Dean later acknowledged. Ditto Dean's decision to let Gadreel take over Sam. Given what he knew at the time that was a sound, well intentioned decision. It went bad and Sam was angry but based on what Dean knew at the time it wasn't stupid. I won't list loads of other examples here as we will get off the topic of this ep. My point is that the problem with Cas's numerous lies and betrayals has been that they have been either beyond stupid (letting Lucifer out) or inexcusable (destroying Sam's wall) or both. His judgement is really poor - which we saw again in this ep and which he himself acknowledged. He has made a LOT of bad calls. Yet he goes right ahead and makes another one - again based on faith in a higher power / bigger plan that experience should have taught him almost always ends badly.

Plus Sam and Dean are actual family so there is more leeway / trust and an unbreakable bond there. Of course they care about Cas. He is a good friend, and they have forgiven him a LOT, but its not the same.

[mertensia]

11 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Except that there are the heroes, the stars, the protagonists. SPN doesn't work if they don't have a role. So the occasional ep that is more focused on Jody or Claire or Cas or Crowley or whoever is fine, but they HAVE to be the main players in the overall story or SPN is dead.

One episode out of what? 236 or so that doesn't have them front and c enter isn't sidelined them for the series in my eyes. Of course, I do realize I share my opinion with zero other people on this forum, so, you know, miles vary.

[Aeryn13]

I`m really disappointed with Glynn here. I had hoped she would at least balance out Berens but IMO it looks more like his ep than hers. Meh. Dean being tricked so easily, not coming up with anything, being the reason the Colt got stolen, not being able to handle himself in a fight and only doing the manual labor thing with the car once again did the character no favours.     

Since Cas lampshaded his own sad state of affairs, it stands to reason he is right this time. Though the way Cas described to be feeling is kinda exactly the way I feel now with the episodes so I could really relate. 

The Dagon actress really wasn`t good, Glad she is gone.