S05.E07: The Committee on Human Rights

[Clanstarling]

13 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Of course that is true.  The thing is, that anyone who remembers that era understands that 1984 is when the eighties truly began in all it's horrible glory.  The early eighties still had traces of the seventies lingering.  Mtv was at its peak with Michael Jackson, Madonna, and Prince.  Hair was getting bigger and make up was getting truly horrible.  I had cousins Mathew's age and they were all rocking Henry type hairstyles.  The girls really thought that look was dreamy.  It is like watching Mad Men and realizing that the early sixties were actually an extension of the fifties and nobody was Mod quite yet.

I was in my 20s in the 80's so I do actually remember it well. Watched MTV every day. I loved my 80s perm, but didn't succumb to the makeup styles. I recognize my clothing on the show now and then. Some I still love, some I hate.

Your point about the shift in eras being mid decade is a good one. As is the example of Mad Men - as the characters, one by one, gradually started donning the clothes we think of as representing the 60s.

Nevertheless, Matthew doesn't bother me, because some kids are hopelessly unhip, or follow the beat of their own drum. I think the show is showing us the changing of the styles, and they don't need to strike the obvious notes to do it.

[qtpye]

1 minute ago, Clanstarling said:

Nevertheless, Matthew doesn't bother me, because some kids are hopelessly unhip, or follow the beat of their own drum. I think the show is showing us the changing of the styles, and they don't need to strike the obvious notes to do it.

True, I think Slate magazine did an article about how the styles in the Americans was perfect, because it was forgettable.  The early eighties was sandwiched between to very distinctive shift in fashion, the earthy, granola, slightly hippy/disco, bello bottom vibe of the seventies and the big hair, neon colored, yuppie greed is good look of the eighties.  It would be funny if we could have a throw away scene where Henry is teasing Mathew about his hair and Mathew says, "Just wait the seventies are coming back in a big way", which it did in the nineties.  Besides the wigs, the only thing remarkable about the looks is how Elizabeth manages to make them look so good.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Nevertheless, Matthew doesn't bother me, because some kids are hopelessly unhip, or follow the beat of their own drum. I think the show is showing us the changing of the styles, and they don't need to strike the obvious notes to do it.

I guess with Matthew's it's just a bit confusing when I think on it (which isn't often). I mean, it's not just that he's unhip, it's that he's unhip in a way that doesn't seem particularly character based at all. It's not like he seems to be aping some particular style from the 70s (not even sure if that hair's really 70s as opposed to 90s or something). It would almost make more sense if he was walking around in jeans and band tee-shirts or something. Or had some specific style icon or idea he was into. But instead it's like he's a totally bland high school student with not much personality, wearing preppy-ish clothes (not as stylin' as Henry, but your basic sweaters) and for some reason he's insisting on parting his hair in the middle and growing it to his shoulders. I mean, he doesn't *have* to feather it or anything but I'm unclear why he's so attached to this particular bold fashion choice. Everything else about is more fade into the woodwork.

Paige's own not-so-hip hair isn't confusing at all. She's copying Elizabeth in keeping it long. She probably grew up thinking that was pretty. She was making it wavy and the show did at least go for some flippy bangs for a while before she started projecting her disinterest with the washer-woman ponytail she's got now. Plus long hair on a girl is pretty understandable in any era. It's got an attraction that transcends decades or fashion. But with Matthew it's like...it seems about as character-based on giving him a nose-piercing. Everything else about him is kind of non-trendy in a default way, not a considered way.

[Erin9]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes it has. There are plenty of scenes where Philip is motivated by the idea of protecting people back home and not Elizabeth. This isn't like an episode of "Wicked Attraction" with the dominating killer and the follower personality. Part of Philip's whole struggle is one of him, as an individual, figuring out how he really relates to the work. That's why he's asking questions. Elizabeth and Paige are such demanding personalities and are so open about everything they're thinking that they suck up a lot of the oxygen, but that doesn't mean everybody else must only be reacting to them. Or that the way other characters relate to them can't be complicated. 

ETA: Basically, with the two of them I think we need to start with the understanding that his devotion to her and her devotion to an expression of something fundamental in their psychology that's tied to a lot of their early life. It's something necessary to understanding them, not just a whim that either one nonsensically keeps following when it would be easier to choose otherwise. 

Exactly. And for Philip being protective is also very personal, wrapped up in his identity and how he identifies himself. Philip doesn't reveal as much as Elizabeth, but the words he uses are telling. When he talks about protecting people or the Soviet Union, he uses words indicating that he identifies himself as part of it. Talking about the food issue- why can't we feed our people? We have this (wheat)back home. Afghanistan- my people are dying.  It's personal. He still self- identifies with his homeland. It's his people, his home. And even though Philip had a very difficult childhood, it's not surprising to me that he cares deeply about his homeland. He shared common experiences with them. That's a pretty common sentiment really. And, he's sure not going to identify with post-war American life!

Maybe being American makes this stand out to me, but I always note it when Philip says "the americans." It's usually not in a positive way, and it shows the distance between himself and the country he's lived in for 20 years. 

Philip is tired of spying. He has some issues with how the soviet government is running things. And he likes certain things about America. None of that means he doesn't have a deep love for the place he spent his formative years that helps determine his choices. It isn't all Elizabeth by any stretch. 

I have always wanted to hear P and E elaborate a bit on what they miss about home. The first couple of episodes we saw them drink vodka and enjoy caviar. I imagine there are other things. They just don't talk about it. 

Edited April 21, 2017 by Erin9

[Sarah 103]

15 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

That wouldn't really bring together storylines. It would just say that two characters who have nothing to do with each other are biologically related in a totally unlikely way that probably would not be detailed in the woman's prison file. Philip is from Tobolsk. The camp in the file mentioned Kransk. There were many camps and millions of nobodies who suffered there.

I think the storylines are already connected. Oleg and Philip are both trying to know their parents for the people they really were and what they went through. Oleg has learned shocking news about his mother, Philip about his father. Both of them and Gabriel were connected to the dark part of their country's history, the country they've both tried to serve as idealistic young men of the next generation.

Oleg, Philip and Paige are all trying to understand who they are and where they came from. I wouldn't be surprised if Paige's questions were what set Philip off. It was a very slow burn, but I think the flashbacks started after Paige started asking him questions about Russia and his family, forcing him to try to remember things he hadn't thought about or wanted to think about in years. 

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

They have her reading up on US history and reading the paper critically (under Pastor Tim's guidance, presumably) enough that she can reference Watergate (something which was actually hard for kids our age because it, like Vietnam, was recent enough that we didn't study it as history, but also had no real memories of it), but she doesn't know anything about how the Soviet Union worked? 

My guess is that through reading the newspaper and watching TV, she has picked up enough to have some understanding of Watergate.  

51 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Of course that is true.  The thing is, that anyone who remembers that era understands that 1984 is when the eighties truly began in all it's horrible glory.  The early eighties still had traces of the seventies lingering.  Mtv was at its peak with Michael Jackson, Madonna, and Prince.  Hair was getting bigger and make up was getting truly horrible.  I had cousins Mathew's age and they were all rocking Henry type hairstyles.  The girls really thought that look was dreamy.  It is like watching Mad Men and realizing that the early sixties were actually an extension of the fifties and nobody was Mod quite yet.

Something that Mad Men did really well was showing that a range of styles could be era appropriate. Peggy, Joan, and Betty all had completely different looks/styles, but all were era appropriate at any point in the series. Not everyone in a given decade is wearing the latest fashion and keeping up to date with the latest styles. 

[EtheltoTillie]

22 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 It's not like he seems to be aping some particular style from the 70s (not even sure if that hair's really 70s as opposed to 90s or something). I

Oh, it's 70s, all right.  I graduated from high school in 1972, and my yearbook is filled with guys with that hairstyle.  The guys in college wore that style too.  We girls thought it was hawt!  But again, not sure why the producers saddled Matthew with that mane.

Edited April 21, 2017 by GussieK

[Eulipian 5k]

We must be in a new era when we spend all this time discussing a male character's hair; and the women are discussed for their character. Dogs sleeoing with cats I tell you!

[sistermagpie]

15 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I have always wanted to hear P and E elaborate a bit on what they miss about home. The first couple of episodes we saw them drink vodka and enjoy caviar. I imagine there are other things. They just don't talk about it. 

This reminds me of an exchange I had with somebody about this ep where they thought that Philip was being sarcastic when he said he felt like "one of those guys in the posters" and that Elizabeth was angry at him doing that, like he was seeing through the propaganda because he knows the Soviets are not feeding everyone.

And I didn't get that at all. I thought Philip was genuinely amused and enjoying that he really did feel like one of the guys in the posters, that he was having a little fun in that moment. He wasn't seeing the posters as evil propaganda, just a part of his childhood that they shared. It was showing his memories almost closer to the surface that way that he'd make the joke, and while I don't quite remember her reaction I doubt she was offended by it. 

The few times he has had some fleeting memory of home I got the sense it was positive, like when he said he liked having cold weather and swordfighting with icicles. Obviously there was always a lot of pain and sorrow as well (WHAT HAPPENED TO HIS BROTHER AND HIS MOTHER???) but that just seems to make the little joys more enjoyable for him. (Something that might alienate him a bit from Henry...)

13 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

My guess is that through reading the newspaper and watching TV, she has picked up enough to have some understanding of Watergate.  

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

I don't know how much she'd really pick up from the newspaper or TV. I really meant it when I said it was difficult. It wasn't something being written about in the news anymore and TV shows, if they mentioned it (and by the 80s they didn't much) just tended to refer to it like a scandal that brought down Nixon that we all knew about rather than the specifics. I didn't actually understand it at all until I rented All the President's Men. So I really feel like if Paige has a basic understanding of Watergate she got it by reading about recent American history or from somebody explaining it to her--maybe Pastor Tim or somebody. It would be harder to find out details of Watergate than things about human rights abuses in the USSR.

 

15 minutes ago, GussieK said:

Oh, it's 70s, all right.  I graduated from high school in 1972, and my yearbook is filled with guys with that hairstyle.  The guys in college wore that style too.  We girls thought it was hawt!  But again, not sure why the producers saddled Matthew with that mane.

I think my main thought was just that it would be frizzier in the 70s. But Matthew may be blessed with hair that does not frizz that way! 

[Umbelina]

Both photos above from early 80s...there are tons out there.

80's hair was all over the place for guys, short, styled, long, messy...there wasn't one cut that dominated.  I can buy Mathew's hair, even though yes, it does look more 60's to me.  He's into music, he's the son of a very conservative hair cut guy Stan, and could be rebelling slightly against that, as teens do, by having his own style.  It's ugly hair, but it doesn't throw me.  Bon Jovi was huge and had much more extreme long hair than Mathew. 

Holly Taylor is what?  19 now?  Maybe she's trying to play "young" and just failing or something.  In interviews, honestly, she has seemed a bit sillier and more immature than even Paige in the past.  At this point I honestly can't tell if it's the actress or the writing, but I tend to think it's the actress.  She's Jennifer Lawrence's age when JL filmed Winter's Bone now.  I'm just pulling a name out here...but I can't imagine I'd be this totally bored with Paige if an adept, subtle actress was in the role.  

That said, this season is everyone depressed, almost all the time, and Holly Taylor simply hasn't got the range to make her depression compelling, interesting, or frankly, anything but annoying.  She can do screaming like a banshee, or the constipated martyr look, and confused caterpillar eyebrows, but that's it.

That little ninja move with Mathew was well done, and no, it wasn't just her catching him off balance, I think she was using something her mom taught her to not only remove the hand of someone who grabbed her, but use that move to throw them back.  Mathew has at least 40 pounds on  her.  I still think it might spark Stan's curiosity of Mathew mentions that to him, given that Aderholt was also beaten up by a much smaller woman, with Gaad.

"List of names..."  I wonder if these names were the rebel shrinks who contributed to the report on abuses with drugs and other shady stuff on anyone not towing the party line in the USSR?  It almost has to be.  Somehow I thought the writers of the report had (bravely) admitted it, but maybe they didn't use their names out of fear, but somehow shared their names with top American and European professionals for credibility, so they could vouch for their work, without exposing them?

I hope we get more about that.   I'm over wheat.

[stagmania]

39 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I have always wanted to hear P and E elaborate a bit on what they miss about home. The first couple of episodes we saw them drink vodka and enjoy caviar. I imagine there are other things. They just don't talk about it. 

The show has doled out little tidbits about their history and feelings of home so sparingly. I think they want the audience to form our own impressions of who they are and why, and do the work to understand them without being spoon fed. The restraint is admirable, if sometimes personally frustrating. They really do follow the edict of show, don't tell when it comes to their characters.

35 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Something that Mad Men did really well was showing that a range of styles could be era appropriate. Peggy, Joan, and Betty all had completely different looks/styles, but all were era appropriate at any point in the series. Not everyone in a given decade is wearing the latest fashion and keeping up to date with the latest styles. 

I think the costuming is the thing I miss most about that show. They were just operating on another level.

[Clanstarling]

13 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

And I didn't get that at all. I thought Philip was genuinely amused and enjoying that he really did feel like one of the guys in the posters, that he was having a little fun in that moment. He wasn't seeing the posters as evil propaganda, just a part of his childhood that they shared. It was showing his memories almost closer to the surface that way that he'd make the joke, and while I don't quite remember her reaction I doubt she was offended by it.

That was my take on it as well. It was a call back to something the both of them could share as a fond childhood memory.

[sistermagpie]

13 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Both photos above from early 80s...there are tons out there.

 

But I have to say...none of them look like Matthew. They're recognizable 80s long (big) hair. Matthew does not have big hair and he's not particularly into music. It's not that his hair is long, it's that it's not long in an 80s way and the rest of Matthew doesn't particularly suit it. Pretty sure it's just Danny Flaherty's hair and they figured they could work with it. He looks that way in other things too.

15 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I'm just pulling a name out here...but I can't imagine I'd be this totally bored with Paige if an adept, subtle actress was in the role.  

That's what came to my mind re: the break up scene and not depending on her for variety. I think she just doesn't have that many ideas for specifics to make scenes different. So whenever Paige asks about something it's like she's coming from the same place, with the same hesitation, the same "I'm trying to understand" struggle. "Is everyone equal there?" is the same as "He's like...your family" is the same as "my life, my crazy....life." For contrast, Elizabeth telling Philip that they need to break up because she can't deal with feelings in s1 does not sound the same as when she tells Philip she can't care about her sources this week. 

Even Paige's scene with Pastor Tim doesn't feel very different to me than her scene back on the bus back in season 2 when he first approached her, despite her no longer playing it like he's unfamiliar.

18 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

That little ninja move with Mathew was well done, and no, it wasn't just her catching him off balance, I think she was using something her mom taught her to not only remove the hand of someone who grabbed her, but use that move to throw them

I think it wasn't just that she caught him off-balance but simply that she pushed him with actual force, something most people don't do. Most girls in that situation, if they were pushing the guy away, would just push with their arms to make the point. Paige planted her feet and pushed with her whole body. It's a really simple change that makes all the difference and could easily shove somebody 40 pounds heavier back. Of course, Matthew could have still overpowered her if they were fighting because he's stronger than she is, but tiny Paige pushing from her heel to the heel of her hand would be surprisingly strong to him. (I once in my life gave a push like that by accident--knocked a 6 foot tall men on his ass, surprisingly both of us!)

It was a really good choice now that I think about it, for that reason. If it was too much of a clear self defense move he'd probably register as such. But since it was the kind of move that just came down to "Here is how to shove someone with actual force" it maybe just read as anger.

22 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

"List of names..."  I wonder if these names were the rebel shrinks who contributed to the report on abuses with drugs and other shady stuff on anyone not towing t

Reading elsewhere I think the idea is that the Committee is a group in the USSR who worked with US psychiatrists, so it's probably that--a list of rebel shrinks or other rebels who report the abuses.

[Umbelina]

Yes, that's what had me confused a bit.  It's really hard to find good information about who wrote this report.  Initially I thought they had BRAVELY just done it and published, in spite of possible punishment.  Now?  I'm thinking they secretly got together and published with different names or something, and the real names of the contributors are what Elizabeth stole?

If so, she's probably condemning them to prison or death, for telling the truth about horrendous abuses by the soviet medical, prison, and psychiatric doctors.

Hopefully the show will be more clear about this in the next episode.

Anything but more wheat and more Paige please...

[SlovakPrincess]

The Pastor Tim stuff has just fizzled.  I would rather have scenes of him and his boring wife discussing whether they're doing the right thing than for him to just be like "welp, here's a book by Marx!  Enjoy!"  

History-wise, did any international incident happen in mid-80s that would make the pastor and wife renew their unease about keeping the Jennings' secret?   

It's just starting to get unrealistic that both their FBI neighbor and the only couple who knows the truth aren't any real threat at all to the Jennings.  And Paige is totally passive now, too, and dumped Matthew.    And Ben and Deirdre don't really give a crap so they're not asking questions about their eager new lovers.  

And Oleg is off the hook with the CIA.  And Stan's story is treading water.  There's no real risk for any of the characters right now (Paige will probably have a nervous breakdown, but quietly and while making the same face).

A clash with Claudia may bring the only dramatic tension we will get this season.  

Edited April 21, 2017 by SlovakPrincess

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

History-wise, did any international incident happen in mid-80s that would make the pastor and wife renew their unease about keeping the Jennings' secret?   

 

Funny they didn't use that Reagan speech--wasn't that the start of Evangelicals turning away from the anti-nukes movement? Not that Pastor Tim would necessarily follow him, but still. 

40 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

The Pastor Tim stuff has just fizzled.  I would rather have scenes of him and his boring wife discussing whether they're doing the right thing than for him to just be like "welp, here's a book by Marx!  Enjoy!"  And I don't even like these characters!  That plot line has become laughable now.  

 

I do like to think that Pastor Tim is maybe getting pretty sick of Paige too. I mean, dude kind of bit off more than he could chew with this one and now that he has a kid of his own he's maybe not quite so obsessed with being involved with this other family. She's not hanging on his every word anymore. 

10 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

A clash with Claudia may bring the only dramatic tension we will get this season.  

Honestly, the thing to me with the most potential is HENRY. This is at heart a show about a family. He's made it clear (to the audience at least--his parents don't seem to get it) that he thinks his parents favor his sister, meaning they value her more than him. That they love her more than him. Or love only her. That's a genuinely painful thing for this kid to be going through and his parents actually would care if they realized they'd hurt him this way. Maybe he got focused on school again to compete with her and is still angry with the result.

There's all this stuff this season about how important it is to know your parents, so many fathers and sons with Philip at the center of many of them (Philip/Philip's dad, Philip/Gabriel, Philip/Tuan, Philip/Mischa, there's even apparently another brother in Philip's family and oh hey, how about Philip/Henry?), and yet they just keep pushing us further along the Elizabeth/Paige train where Elizabeth can be thrilled that Paige is asking about Marx and teach her self-defense and have Gabriel tell Paige she's a hero. Elizabeth's already taken Paige to meet her own mom and they bonded over that. 

Since Henry and Philip are the Jennings who actually prioritize personal relationships even when they conflict with the cause, can we see them start to work their way back to each other instead of always having to turn our attention to either Elizabeth or Paige? 

[dubbel zout]

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I do like to think that Pastor Tim is maybe getting pretty sick of Paige too. I mean, dude kind of bit off more than he could chew with this one and now that he has a kid of his own he's maybe not quite so obsessed with being involved with this other family. She's not hanging on his every word anymore. 

Heh. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, Tim!

[NitneLiun]

3 hours ago, qtpye said:

Of course that is true.  The thing is, that anyone who remembers that era understands that 1984 is when the eighties truly began in all it's horrible glory.  The early eighties still had traces of the seventies lingering.  Mtv was at its peak with Michael Jackson, Madonna, and Prince.  Hair was getting bigger and make up was getting truly horrible.  I had cousins Mathew's age and they were all rocking Henry type hairstyles.  The girls really thought that look was dreamy.  It is like watching Mad Men and realizing that the early sixties were actually an extension of the fifties and nobody was Mod quite yet.

I have kind of the opposite view. I graduated from high school in '80 and college in '84.  I think the 80s actually started around '78 or '79.  That's when hair styles started getting shorter, preppy clothes started to appear in stores and bell bottoms began their decline. Music styles that appeared in the very late 70s had a huge influence in the 80s (Blondie and the B-52s, for example).  I guess it largely depends on the part of the country you were in.  Some areas of the Midwest are a few years behind the coasts.

[Umbelina]

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/05/14/us/psychiatric-abuse-in-soviet-assailed.html

1987

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Koryagin

 

Quote

Koryagin managed to smuggle a letter to the West documenting his ordeal.

http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1482&context=yjil

On page 3, beginning with "Introduction" it talks of leaked stories to the West from the Soviet Union about psychiatric abuses of political prisoners, including the mid eighties.  I'm really beginning to wonder if those doctors who leaked case histories proving abuse are the names Elizabeth is turning over. 

There must be one solid source of this information out there, but so far I keep finding bits and pieces in various medical PDFs, etc. 

So she's betraying the very people who are doing their best to help innocent soviet people imprisoned, experimented on, and basically tortured for having independent ideas.  How will this play out in our little TV show though?  How would she know, or Philip, if it's just names on a list?  Hopefully it's more than that.

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.2010.10111651

Quote

The earliest exposés of Soviet practices came from dissidents themselves, including the Moscow-based Working Commission to Investigate the Use of Psychiatry for Political Purposes. By the early 1980s, efforts to combat Soviet practices focused on expelling the official Soviet psychiatric association from WPA, an approach supported by the leading Western psychiatric organizations, including the American Psychiatric Association (APA) and the Royal College of Psychiatrists in Britain. Using expulsion as a means of chastising the recalcitrant Soviets was both controversial and uncertain of success because WPA leadership and many other psychiatric associations feared fracturing world psychiatry. However, Soviet resistance to acknowledging even well-documented cases of abuse appeared to seal their fate, and rather than be expelled at the 1983 World Congress of Psychiatry in Vienna, the Soviets withdrew from WPA.

Interesting, so if dissidents, not psychiatrists are the names on that list Elizabeth stole, then they are in for even more hell in the USSR.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Umbelina

[jjj]

5 hours ago, qtpye said:

.  Besides the wigs, the only thing remarkable about the looks is how Elizabeth manages to make them look so good.

Keri Russell could put a mop on her head and make it look good. 

[EtheltoTillie]

1 hour ago, jjj said:

Keri Russell could put a mop on her head and make it look good. 

Well, they didn't think that in season three of Felicity. LOL. 

[VCRTracking]

(double post)

Edited April 22, 2017 by VCRTracking

[VCRTracking]

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But I have to say...none of them look like Matthew. They're recognizable 80s long (big) hair. Matthew does not have big hair and he's not particularly into music. It's not that his hair is long, it's that it's not long in an 80s way and the rest of Matthew doesn't particularly suit it. Pretty sure it's just Danny Flaherty's hair and they figured they could work with it. He looks that way in other things too.

While his hair might not be "1984" the more anachronistic hair was that old photo of Oleg's mom in her file. For someone in the 50s she sure had 70s hair! I guess that was the actress when she was young.

I really hope this really isn't the last time we see Frank Langella. At the very least I was hoping for more scenes of Paige and her "grandpa" Gabriel.

Okay I said in an earlier episode that "Oklahoma City" was my favorite P&E disguise but "white trash" may have topped it.

I love their reaction to seeing Ben with another woman. The way Phillip said "Who's she?" and Elizabeth being like "WTF?"

So we're still not sure if Laurie Holden is really a spy sent to work Stan. I guess it will probably be ambiguous for a while.

Edited April 22, 2017 by VCRTracking

[crgirl412]

On 4/21/2017 at 2:15 AM, Gabrielle Tracy said:

I really, really like the Gabriel character.  He just comes off as so kind and, dare I say, loving and grandfatherly.  I freely admit that this connection may be because Frank Langella is a dead ringer for my dad.  Of course, in this episode he regaled Phillip with tales about how he had been a very bad person at one time.  And one thing I've learned in my time on this planet is that when someone tells you how they are; you should believe them.  I'll still miss him though.

PS.  Do y'all remember that in the first season E and P were upset that Gabriel had been replaced by "Granny" as they called her then.  Was it ever explained why Gabriel had been replaced and then come back?

 

Slightly off topic but these posts reminded me of one of those ridiculous stories they post on Yahoo where you have to keep hitting "next page" to finish the article.  It was a heartwarming article about how President Trump and three of his children are all proud graduates of Pennsylvania State University! 

It drives them wild to be confused with Penn State which is not a bad school at all but it's no Penn!!    

[dubbel zout]

18 hours ago, NitneLiun said:

I guess it largely depends on the part of the country you were in.  Some areas of the Midwest are a few years behind the coasts.

Most definitely this.

16 hours ago, jjj said:

Keri Russell could put a mop on her head and make it look good. 

A colleague and I were bemoaning how terrible we looked in the '80s, yet Keri Russell looks fantastic. So unfair! Hee.

Except for the potential plot dovetail, I wonder why Elizabeth had to be the one to steal the list of names. It wasn't exactly a complicated mission. Did Gabriel think something this simple would be a palate cleanser, as it were? 

[jjj]

On ‎4‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 3:54 AM, crgirl412 said:

It drives them wild to be confused with Penn State which is not a bad school at all but it's no Penn!!    

I'm from *both* schools, and I can assure you that it makes Penn crazy to be confused with Penn State!  And to the point of this episode, if anyone on a show called it "U of P", I would call "FAKE"!  I was the first one to raise the "U of I" question early in this thread of whether this was a writers' mistake or indication that she is someone who has learned American culture rather than lived it.  And I am not from IU, I don't follow sports, but it was very jarring.  I've been watching too many tv mystery shows where the perpetrator gives himself away by a slip of a single word.  (AHA, we never told you it was a *pinkie* finger that was found! -- "Monk" is in reruns right now, my other obsession.)  So, "U of I" for Bloomington was a clue to me, but maybe just a writers' glitch.  I still am on TeamSpy for her. 

Edited April 23, 2017 by jjj

[ahpny]

Quote

Paige's insufferable speech about how awful it is for America to mess with the food (a lie her parents have got her regurgitating) made me want to throw things at my tv. 

Quote

But I thought Elizabeth and Philip were total fucking hypocrites for not telling her any revised story about the wheat. So much for their high idealism.

With all the murder and ruined lives and stuff, I'm sure her parents deception regarding US "guilt" for "poisoning wheat" shouldn't be on the top of their worst transgressions list, but somehow it still really bothered me. Elizabeth and Philip lie all the time, and indeed, continue to lie to Paige about many things, but I suppose this one particularly irked because it appears to be part of a long con to dupe their own daughter and manage her as an asset.. How can they be so callous to someone they claim to love? We all make sacrifices I guess.

And speaking of sacrifices, however improbable it may be, I keep hoping that Oleg will somehow learn that his respite from betrayal or the Gulag is a direct response to a career-sacrificing maneuver of Stan. Stan may have offed some essentially innocent low-level Soviet agent chomping on a fast-food burger, but hey, he's loyal.

Quote

With the stolen plant they have immediate access and can start to reverse-engineer it or study it or whatever they need to do to make it for themselves.

It’s a plant with seeds, that that reproduces itself with a little water and light. They don’t need to reserve-engineer anything. 

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, ahpny said:

It’s a plant with seeds, that that reproduces itself with a little water and light. They don’t need to reserve-engineer anything. 

Although that might not be the best version of the plant yet. If they're being genetically engineered it would also make sense for the Soviets to want to break down the science of it and work on it to create other strains or whatever.

[Sarah 103]

On April 21, 2017 at 2:49 PM, Umbelina said:

That little ninja move with Mathew was well done, and no, it wasn't just her catching him off balance, I think she was using something her mom taught her to not only remove the hand of someone who grabbed her, but use that move to throw them back.  Mathew has at least 40 pounds on  her.  I still think it might spark Stan's curiosity of Mathew mentions that to him, given that Aderholt was also beaten up by a much smaller woman, with Gaad.

I don't think it will make Stan suspicious unless it was a very specific move that almost no uses/is rarely used. Self-defense classes for women started in the 1970s and I imagine became more common in the 1980s. I think it would be a big leap for Stan to go from Paige knows basic self-defense to Paige's mother is a Russian spy and the woman who beat up Aderholt. 

[DB in CMH]

After exciting me last season, this show is back to boring the ever loving shit out of me.

[NitneLiun]

11 hours ago, jjj said:

I'm from *both* schools, and I can assure you that it makes Penn crazy to be confused with Penn State!  And to the point of this episode, if anyone on a show called it "U of P", I would call "FAKE"!  I was the first one to raise the "U of I" question early in this thread of whether this was a writers' mistake or indication that she is someone who has learned American culture rather than lived it.  And I am not from UI, I don't follow sports, but it was very jarring.  I've been watching too many tv mystery shows where the perpetrator gives himself away by a slip of a single word.  (AHA, we never told you it was a *pinkie* finger that was found! -- "Monk" is in reruns right now, my other obsession.)  So, "U of I" for Bloomington was a clue to me, but maybe just a writers' glitch.  I still am on TeamSpy for her. 

It makes Penn Staters crazy to be confused with Penn, as well.

-- Penn State MBA '93

[Superpole2000]

Episodes like this have made me stop recommending this show to my friends. I find the scenes in the Soviet Union to be unbearably dull. When those scenes come up, we have no connection to the main characters/plot, we are forced to read subtitles, and there isn't a great deal of action there anyway. Actually, the entire show could use more action. suspense, and intrigue. What we got in this episode (and most of this season) was dull filler.

[kokapetl]

7 hours ago, NitneLiun said:

It makes Penn Staters crazy to be confused with Penn, as well.

-- Penn State MBA '93

Penn State? Where that Sandusky fellow worked?

[JasonCC]

I think the Indiana mistake Laurie Holden made was intentional (by the writers, not the character) to show a lot of her babbling on about her background is not her actual back-history.

Matthew's hair? I feel like just the tiniest bit of feathering action would make if feel more Reagan-era.

One thing when I watch real television from the mid to late 1980s that always takes me aback? How COVERED UP everyone was! Long sleeves, jackets, ruffles, shoulder pads, etc. I watched a few episodes of "Designing Women" Season 1 and was honestly shocked at how many layers of fabric they have hiding attractive bodies who were only in their 30s (and 40s for Julia I guess). In my mind 80s is Madonna and Janet Jackson......but then it's not.

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, Superpole2000 said:

Episodes like this have made me stop recommending this show to my friends. I find the scenes in the Soviet Union to be unbearably dull. When those scenes come up, we have no connection to the main characters/plot, we are forced to read subtitles, and there isn't a great deal of action there anyway. Actually, the entire show could use more action. suspense, and intrigue. What we got in this episode (and most of this season) was dull filler.

A great case of how mileage varies - I'm enjoying the Soviet Union scenes more than the ones in America. A peek behind the curtain intrigues me, and as we're building up to Gorby and I like seeing the situations that will bring him into power. On the other hand, I didn't care for them when Nina was in prison - because there wasn't anything about the society at large in them.

I don't mind the slow pace. It's now more of a character study instead of an action/adventure. The cracks are growing, and when the finale comes around, I'll bet it's pretty explosive precisely because of the character development this season.

Which doesn't mean a little action/suspense wouldn't be welcome too. Someone upthread mentioned that the paranoia is missing, and I think that's an excellent point. That was so much a part of the atmosphere of the show, and we miss it.

[jjj]

I have every faith that the final episode of this season will pull together many of the elements that seem disparate (and I have criticized the slow pace and lack of tension).  So, at the end, we will say, aha, now we see the plan.  But many episodes so far seem almost like filler to get to the real point of the season -- they started with the end game, and said, well, how do we fill the other 12 episodes to get there?  It's a slim narrative with a (hopefully) great final act, but if they did not need to fill all these episodes I'd bet they could get to the end with a lot more tension.  The end of this season is a major punctuation mark, and I hope it leads to a roller coaster ride in the final season.  (P.S. -- I have zero information on where this season is going -- just anticipating a finale that sets up the final season in a way these episodes are not seeming to do.) 

[Erin9]

On 4/22/2017 at 0:54 PM, ahpny said:

And speaking of sacrifices, however improbable it may be, I keep hoping that Oleg will somehow learn that his respite from betrayal or the Gulag is a direct response to a career-sacrificing maneuver of Stan. Stan may have offed some essentially innocent low-level Soviet agent chomping on a fast-food burger, but hey, he's loyal.

I can't say I've ever thought of Stan as particularly loyal.

He cheated on his wife. That's about as disloyal as it gets imo. Then, when she found out and was clearly angry and hurt, Stan's response was to.....continue the affair. Wonderful. Even though he KNEW it was doomed. He knew. I'm frankly surprised Renee is okay with him being an adulterer. I'd run in the other direction. (Didn't she say her husband cheated on her? Seems like Stan would be the last man she'd want to date.)

He wasn't exactly loyal to Nina either, despite his millions of promises to her. (Not that she was loyal to him, but that's not my point.) To be fair, I have no problem with Stan putting the security of his country ahead of Nina, but he wasn't loyal to her. He was loyal to his country though.

Generally, the only thing I see Stan as terribly loyal to is his country, but even that is somewhat dependent on how you view him blackmailing the government. Some people would call that disloyalty. But he was loyal to Oleg (And I do want Oleg to make it.) and risked his career, though that is pretty new loyalty: Stan is the the one who made and handed over the tape to begin with.

Then, there are his bosses: Gaad and Wolfe. Can't say I'd use the word loyal if I were them. Nor would the word trustworthy come to mind. I wouldn't want him working for me. Stan does what he wants, and they were the ones dealing with the blow back. No wonder Gaad got fed up. Stan is a good agent; he gets results. But, he's not much of a team player. Like Philip says, he's a loner and that applies to his work too. 

Stan's loyal when it suits Stan as best as I can tell.

Edited April 23, 2017 by Erin9

[sistermagpie]

49 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Stan's loyal when it suits Stan as best as I can tell.

I guess it's that maybe Stan mostly wants to feel like a hero. If doing something makes him feel not that way he doesn't want to do it. Oleg was a stand up guy in handing over William and he did it for the right reasons (because he thought he was protecting his people). Stan didn't want to be the guy who betrayed that guy.

I wonder if Renee knows he cheated on his wife. It was his wife who ultimately left him for another guy because she was the honest one and back when Stan was making up with Philip over seeing her (that is, Philip was making up with him about it) Stan seemed to talk about Sandra as if she was the shady one. Like he said that he didn't think Philip would sleep with Stan's ex (which could also be read as him seeing Philip as just non-threatening and wimpy) but that he wouldn't put it past Sandra. Although Sandra had never been anything but upfront and reliable.

[Erin9]

31 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I guess it's that maybe Stan mostly wants to feel like a hero. If doing something makes him feel not that way he doesn't want to do it. Oleg was a stand up guy in handing over William and he did it for the right reasons (because he thought he was protecting his people). Stan didn't want to be the guy who betrayed that guy.

I wonder if Renee knows he cheated on his wife. It was his wife who ultimately left him for another guy because she was the honest one and back when Stan was making up with Philip over seeing her (that is, Philip was making up with him about it) Stan seemed to talk about Sandra as if she was the shady one. Like he said that he didn't think Philip would sleep with Stan's ex (which could also be read as him seeing Philip as just non-threatening and wimpy) but that he wouldn't put it past Sandra. Although Sandra had never been anything but upfront and reliable.

I think that's it: Stan wants to be the hero. He's really not a loyal guy imo. But he likes the idea of being the hero, the good guy. Oleg did the right thing, and I like that Stan wants to honor that. It's revolting that Oleg should be blackmailed after that.  But I can't say I applaud Stan's method either. Results aside, I'm surprised they still put up with him. He doesn't give much loyalty; so I'm surprised he gets any. 

Ugh, how he talked about Sandra in that scene with Philip was truly nauseating. She'd begged him to work on the marriage, confronted him about his affair- all for him to do nothing but suggest a vacation. Then- he had the gall to make her seem like the bad guy, the dishonest one, in that conversation with Philip. She was honest at least.

Renee definitely knows he cheated. Stan had some weird commentary that he supposed Sandra had known about the affair. Ummm....she DID know. No doubt. She confronted him directly twice on that. And I could swear Renee said something about how  her husband cheated on her, but maybe not. 

Edited April 23, 2017 by Erin9

[Sighed I]

Well, I'm late to the party, but I've enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts.

Despite some excellent performances, I was a little underwhelmed the first time I watched this episode. However, I did like it more after a second viewing. Overall, I found individual scenes quite good, but the parts, despite their thematic similarity, didn't flow together as a whole quite as smoothly as I would have liked.

I liked the different expressions on P/E's faces during Gabriel's conversation with Paige, Elizabeth beaming with pride while Philip appears unsettled and uncertain about the whole thing. The look they exchange when Gabriel talks about how many lives they've saved was very interesting. How many lives have they actually saved? Do P/E even know?

Philip's scene with Deirdre was quite amusing. I liked how she tapped into Philip's neediness. He's trying to make inroads with her--and finding her a hard nut to crack, much to his chagrin--and that could be the source of what she's sensing about him, his need/desperation to make a connection so he can get on with this thing. Part of me also wonders if the mask is slipping, just a little bit. Everyone is so tired and burned out, their hearts just aren't into it. It doesn't help that this particular mission takes them far from home so often.

Speaking of which, why are they continuing on with this op anyway? They know there's no evil conspiracy to poison their people, and now they have the wheat. Is it about Alexei? I'm not sure if I missed something along the way, but I don't understand the Center's reasoning for not putting this one in the done pile.

The scene where P/E are spying on Ben in Mississippi was really well done. Philip's side eye and Elizabeth's stunned silence when they caught Ben canoodling with another woman cracked me up. No matter what she said later, Philip knows damn well Elizabeth cares.

It's interesting to see the shoe on the other foot. Throughout the series, P/E have been the ones manipulating others for their own purposes. While we've seen the toll their endless deception has cost them mentally and emotionally, they've still managed to connect with their marks without too much difficulty. This is the first time I can recall Philip being unable to get inside someone's head, and Elizabeth being played by (or at least misreading) the person she's supposed to be playing.

Count me in with those who find Pastor Tim a little creepy in his scenes with Paige. It's like he tries to be a peer/friend and a mentor at the same time or something. Not that one can't be friends with a mentor, but their relationship has a weird vibe. Maybe it's her age and vulnerability that makes it so uncomfortable for me. Nevertheless, I did like their conversation in this episode. As someone mentioned upthread, I interpreted the scene as PT attempting reconnect with Paige but instead discovering his influence on her is waning.

Frank Langella was great as always. I hope this isn't the last we see of Gabriel, and now that he's gone, I wonder how P/E are going to find out about Mischa. Maybe the folder Elizabeth stole will start them down that path?

While I understand why he handled his final conversations with P/E differently--giving Elizabeth praise and reassurance, speaking frankly with Philip--I felt the way he spoke to each of them about Paige could put P/E in conflict. He didn't tell Elizabeth straight out to keep working on Paige to bring her into the fold, but I could see Elizabeth interpreting it that way. Meanwhile, he was very clear with Philip that Paige should not be part of this life.

Given how guilty Gabriel feels about lying to them, I can't see this as a deliberate deception on his part. Does he trust Philip more to share his true feelings about something which could be interpreted as traitorous? He has to know Philip will tell Elizabeth eventually, though, so the whole thing has left me feeling a bit discombobulated.

I found the U of I reference jarring too; was it a tell that Renee isn't who she says she is? It seems too sloppy an error to not to be deliberate, but then you have Matthew's hair, which totally reads late 70's to me, so...

Mattaige breaking up scene was good. I liked the shove, callback to Momma's lessons, showing it's sinking in. She's going to regret saying she had "too much stuff going on" as a reason for breaking up with him. Looking at the situation from the outside, I think that statement will pique Stan's interest once he hears about it.

I miss Martha too. In many ways hers was the thread that tied the myriad stories together and added a lot of tension from the fear and paranoia of exposure. I agree with those who suggested the loss of this thread may be a big reason why season 5 feels so different from the others.

[dubbel zout]

4 minutes ago, Sighed I said:

Elizabeth being played by (or at least misreading) the person she's supposed to be playing

How is Elizabeth being played? Just because Ben is seeing other women? He and Elizabeth are in a LDR, and they haven't talked about being exclusive. Plus, I believe he's honest with her when they talk, i.e., he tells the truth about his job and his feelings. He is who he is around her, while she definitely isn't.

As for Elizabeth misreading Ben, maybe that's closer to what's happening, but it's really egotistical of her to think she's Ben's one and only. Maybe she's never had to deal with a mark that isn't socially awkward/super shy/etc.

All that said, I totally cracked up when she got all outraged at seeing him with another woman. If nothing else, it's a good reminder that life goes one when she's not with her marks.

[Sighed I]

It's funny you say that, because when I first wrote it I put "played by". I don't actually think he's playing her for the reasons you stated, more like from "Brenda's" perspective she thought he might really be into/falling for her, only to find she's not quite as special as she thought she was. It's hard sometimes to be completely clear when writing this stuff, especially when I already have a tendency to write long posts. I guess I'm not as good as The Americans' writers at subtext. LOL

Edited April 24, 2017 by Sighed I

[sistermagpie]

15 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

How is Elizabeth being played? Just because Ben is seeing other women? He and Elizabeth are in a LDR, and they haven't talked about being exclusive. Plus, I believe he's honest with her when they talk, i.e., he tells the truth about his job and his feelings. He is who he is around her, while she definitely isn't.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Sighed I said:

It's funny you say that, because when I first wrote it I put "played by". I don't actually think he's playing her for the reasons you stated, more like from "Brenda's" perspective she thought he might really be into/falling for her, only to find she's not quite as special as she thought she was. It's hard sometimes to be completely clear when writing this stuff, especially when I already have a tendency to write already-long posts. I guess I'm not as good as The Americans' writers at subtext. LOL

Yeah, it's funny that it's hard to say exactly how to describe it. It's more just that we're used to Philip withholding intimacy from a woman who wants it; now Deirdre is withholding intimacy from him. Likewise we're used to Elizabeth being the one who has the secret. She, too, is often "playing" the other person by not being as interested in the guy as he thinks she is. In the first season, especially, she sometimes made faces when their backs were turned, rolled her eyes etc.

Here just as Deirdre isn't intentionally trying to make Gus (if Gus were a real guy) feel rejected, Ben isn't intentionally wanting Brenda to feel foolish because she's just one of a bunch of women. But Elizabeth knows that if she hadn't seen that guy with another girl she'd have assumed she was the only one and that his interest in her and the attention he pays to her has to do with her being special.

And it makes sense that she's more bothered by this than Philip is bothered by being told his meeting because he's accepted that even fake relationship have some reality to them. 

31 minutes ago, Sighed I said:

She's going to regret saying she had "too much stuff going on" as a reason for breaking up with him. Looking at the situation from the outside, I think that statement will pique Stan's interest once he hears about it.

Heh. Well, she does still have to spend hours and hours at church each week!

32 minutes ago, Sighed I said:

Given how guilty Gabriel feels about lying to them, I can't see this as a deliberate deception on his part. Does he trust Philip more to share his true feelings about something which could be interpreted as traitorous? He has to know Philip will tell Elizabeth eventually, though, so the whole thing has left me feeling a bit discombobulated.

 

Yeah, it's weird. Why exactly did he do it that way? Does he just want to protect his "perfect" relationship with Elizabeth? It's almost like a parallel of Henry and Paige. He doesn't want to disturb Elizabeth's fantasy that she's just doing what she has to do to be a hero.

33 minutes ago, Sighed I said:

Count me in with those who find Pastor Tim a little creepy in his scenes with Paige. It's like he tries to be a peer/friend and a mentor at the same time or something. Not that one can't be friends with a mentor, but their relationship has a weird vibe. Maybe it's her age and vulnerability that makes it so uncomfortable for me.

It's kind of a perfect consequence for her telling him. She seems to have mostly outgrown him as a mentor--not that she thinks he's a fool or anything, but he went from having all the answers to being on the outside of what's "really" going on in her life. But even though Pastor Tim doesn't know exactly how closely her parents are watching the relationship, he must feel a certain awkwardness. Like he knows the biggest secret in her life, but he's getting that he doesn't really understand it and he can't get her to open up about it like she would have in the past.

[Umbelina]

Agree with you guys that the Gabriel switch was jarring and important.

I have one theory about it, or feeling about it.  With Elizabeth and Philip together, and speaking directly to Elizabeth he was still handling them, doing his job.  As much as he might care about them in some ways, he was still in "handler" mode, still doing his job.

Philip alone though?  Their conversation about his dad being a low level KGB prison guard and Philip's subsequent questions prompted Gabriel into devastating memories of his own.  Gabriel got angry at one point as well, and in some ways was giving Philip his confession, or at least trying to dump it all out because he was quitting, and God knows he couldn't do it in the USSR, where he was headed. 

It became a life reflection breakthrough moment for Gabriel.  Or an EST session, with Philip as the one asking pertinent questions, prompting more conversation and emotion to get at the truth.  The truth poured out, and it was ugly, and horrifying, and Gabriel's take away became that the real reason he'd done all of those "sins" was simply trying to stay alive himself.  He saw it, on some level, for what it really was all along, not some glorious cause, but a fucking mess where he was trapped by his own desire/need to simply survive.

Gabriel just met Paige, someone he's heard about for 16 years, but in many ways she was an abstraction.  Now?  She's real.  His trip down "real" memory lane with Philip, things he's buried for years as just doing his job, or doing what he had to do all came back in all their gory reality.

Did he want that for Paige?

No.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Umbelina

[Sighed I]

4 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

As for Elizabeth misreading Ben, maybe that's closer to what's happening, but it's really egotistical of her to think she's Ben's one and only. Maybe she's never had to deal with a mark that isn't socially awkward/super shy/etc.

I think you're right. It's similar to the situation with Young-Hee in the sense of a mark getting to her, but this is the first time the target of a honey trap has wormed his way (albeit unintentionally on his part) into her psyche. Given her issues about being in control, particularly when it comes to sex, I think she might be feeling foolish that he "pulled the wool over her eyes." I predict she'll have a real hard time reining in the attitude next time they meet up. Heh heh.

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Here just as Deirdre isn't intentionally trying to make Gus (if Gus were a real guy) feel rejected, Ben isn't intentionally wanting Brenda to feel foolish because she's just one of a bunch of women. But Elizabeth knows that if she hadn't seen that guy with another girl she'd have assumed she was the only one and that his interest in her and the attention he pays to her has to do with her being special.

And it makes sense that she's more bothered by this than Philip is bothered by being told his meeting because he's accepted that even fake relationship have some reality to them.

I agree. On one hand, Philip's ability to see the humanity in the people he's working has made him vulnerable to guilt and a potential liability. Elizabeth, meanwhile, has had much less trouble compartmentalizing (with a couple of exceptions), in large part due to her ability to dehumanize her targets as pawns of "the enemy" and therefore expendable.

While Deirdre has Philip stymied, he's not taking her standoffishness personally. If anything it's got to be at least a little bit of a relief that the chances he'll break Deirdre's heart are basically zero.

Ben's "betrayal" has left Elizabeth much more off balance. She is taking it personally, because she let her guard down, just a little bit, and "got taken". I'd like to think this might cause her to reflect a bit on what she's done to others, as it has Philip, but I have a feeling she'll choose the opposite tack, harden and withdraw so she'll never be "fooled" again.

Quote

It's kind of a perfect consequence for her telling him. She seems to have mostly outgrown him as a mentor--not that she thinks he's a fool or anything, but he went from having all the answers to being on the outside of what's "really" going on in her life. But even though Pastor Tim doesn't know exactly how closely her parents are watching the relationship, he must feel a certain awkwardness. Like he knows the biggest secret in her life, but he's getting that he doesn't really understand it and he can't get her to open up about it like she would have in the past.

Yes. The more she learns about her parents' work, the further the distance between her and PT. It also appears her faith is wavering, so there isn't even that to maintain their bond. At this point she's so just going through the motions, I wonder if she'd bother with him at all if it wasn't for him knowing about P/E.

Quote

Yeah, it's weird. Why exactly did he do it that way? Does he just want to protect his "perfect" relationship with Elizabeth? It's almost like a parallel of Henry and Paige. He doesn't want to disturb Elizabeth's fantasy that she's just doing what she has to do to be a hero.

I think he does feel like that's what she needs from him. Gabriel sees the vulnerable, approval seeking girl beyond her hard exterior and the way she responds to his encouragement. I can definitely see a parallel between the way Gabriel handles P/E and the way P/E handle Paige and Henry.

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Agree with you guys that the Gabriel switch was jarring and important.

I have one theory about it, or feeling about it.  With Elizabeth and Philip together, and speaking directly to Elizabeth he was still handling them, doing his job.  As much as he might care about them in some ways, he was still in "handler" mode, still doing his job.

Philip alone though?  Their conversation about his dad being a low level KGB prison guard and Philip's subsequent questions prompted Gabriel into devastating memories of his own.  Gabriel got angry at one point as well, and in some ways was giving Philip his confession, or at least trying to dump it all out because he was quitting, and God knows he couldn't do it in the USSR, where he was headed. 

It became a life reflection breakthrough moment for Gabriel.  Or an EST session, with Philip as the one asking pertinent questions, prompting more conversation and emotion to get at the truth.  The truth poured out, and it was ugly, and horrifying, and Gabriel's take away became that the real reason he'd done all of those "sins" was simply trying to stay alive himself.  He saw it, on some level, for what it really was all along, not some glorious cause, but a fucking mess where he was trapped by his own desire/need to simply survive.

Gabriel just met Paige, someone he's heard about for 16 years, but in many ways she was an abstraction.  Now?  She's real.  His trip down "real" memory lane with Philip, things he's buried for years as just doing his job, or doing what he had to do all came back in all their gory reality.

Did he want that for Paige?

No.

I really like this theory and it makes a lot of sense! Gabriel's confession to Philip was one of the most powerful scenes in the episode, so I'm glad you reminded me of it. It was very humanizing, and did come about in an EST kind of way for Gabe to admit, probably for the first time, that his decision to join the KGB was about survival, not conviction. And as all those devastating memories came pouring out, the horror of that long-buried truth may have been the proverbial splash of cold water he needed to say what he really felt.

Gabriel planned on leaving with a few choice words of wisdom (as he did with Elizabeth) but after all the messiness of his career, capped off by lying to the people who are about the closest thing he's had to family, Philip's questions really got to him and, as you say, this was pretty much his last chance to speak openly about such ugly things.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Sighed I

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Sighed I said:

Yes. The more she learns about her parents' work, the further the distance between her and PT. It also appears her faith is wavering, so there isn't even that to maintain their bond. At this point she's so just going through the motions, I wonder if she'd bother with him at all if it wasn't for him knowing about P/E.

I think I said last week that I thought it was interesting that when Elizabeth asked about Paige's reaction to Marx's hatred of religion was that she felt the best in her life on the day of her baptism. Just because it seemed like, as always, she was being a bit ambiguous. Even when talking about aspects of PT's church that seem spiritually conservative, she didn't talk about God as a presence there in the room. It reminded me that after the baptism itself Philip asked her if she felt different and she already seemed unsure. So I wonder if she was supposed to be hiding her real feelings back then (although it didn't seem like she had a reason to hide them and in fact it would be more expected for her to be telling him how great it was), or if she's now remembering her baptism as a great moment for some other reason than a God-related one.

4 hours ago, Sighed I said:

Gabriel planned on leaving with a few choice words of wisdom (as he did with Elizabeth) but after all the messiness of his career, capped off by lying to the people who are about the closest thing he's had to family, Philip's questions really got to him and, as you say, this was pretty much his last chance to speak openly about such ugly things.

I love the EST connection! It's fascinating to think that he called Philip over just because he planned to say one thing but then changed his mind in the moment thanks to Philip's questions.

Edited April 25, 2017 by sistermagpie

[skippylou]

On 4/22/2017 at 10:11 PM, DB in CMH said:

After exciting me last season, this show is back to boring the ever loving shit out of me.

My speculation about this episode is that when it was written the writers didn't have a clue where they were taking this season so they dropped  a lot of breadcrumbs and characters with open ended stories that they could pick up on later when they get inspired.  I hope they get inspired soon, this is verging on becoming a soap opera.

[Sighed I]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think I said last week that I thought it was interesting that when Elizabeth asked about Paige's reaction to Marx's hatred of religion was that she felt the best in her life on the day of her baptism. Just because it seemed like, as always, she was being a bit ambiguous. Even when talking about aspects of PT's church that seem spiritually conservative, she didn't talk about God as a presence there in the room. It reminded me that after the baptism itself Philip asked her if she felt different and she already seemed unsure. So I wonder if she was supposed to be hiding her real feelings back then (although it didn't seem like she had a reason to hide them and in fact it would be more expected for her to be telling her how great it was), or if she's now remembering her baptism as a great moment for some other reason than a God-related one.

 

I remember that comment, and Paige's response to the question made me go hmmm as well. She desperately wants to believe in something and make a difference in the world, but she also seems to have this need for someone to give her all the answers. Maybe part of the reason she's so vague when questioned about her beliefs is because she's been so busy following she hasn't actually taken the time to really explore what she herself believes.

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I love the EST connection! It's fascinating to think that he called Philip over just because he planned to say one thing but then changed his mind in the moment thanks to Philip's questions.

I've always enjoyed that part of Philip's story line, so it's nice to see aspects of EST potentially coming into play here, especially given the disdain Elizabeth has expressed about Philip's continued interest in it. Seems fitting, somehow, if this thing she's always dismissed as a waste of time and money contributed to (one of?) the most honest conversations either of them have had with Gabriel.

[crgirl412]

I agree.  I think that Elizabeth's reaction to seeing Ben with another woman is from that same place of softening that her mourning Young-Hee is coming from.  She is slowly becoming a normal, feeling person in many ways. 

[Juliegirlj]

As irritating as it is that Henry is never home, it is just as bad that Paige is always home!! Sitting serenely on the couch or her bed, quietly reading a book....No music?! No tv?! No friends other than Matthew?! Come on, even nerds have friends....

Plants through customs is a big no no. Was it allowed back then?

[Juliegirlj]

Interesting parallels between what Paige was hearing about Marxism/socialism and the selflessness of Jesus. Can't repeat verbatim but what Gabriel told Paige and what Father Tim said were two sides of the same coin,