S06.E12: America First

[venezia54]

Quote

RIP Quinn. I guess at least you avoided the ultimate torture which is being in a relationship with Carrie.

Ha! Good one. 

When Rupert said they had not decided FOR SURE whether to kill Quinn off until just before they shot the finale, that made me so angry. Yes, it was heavily foreshadowed, but there were also moments of hope. That's because they shot the scenes without knowing which way to go, so they tried to have it both ways. I write and direct commercials and videos. Even my measly projects get scripted WELL in advance of the shoot. You don't leave a decision that big for last minute. So what did Ganza do--flip a coin? That they shot almost the entire season not knowing Quinn's fate is why it was so inconsistent. That's why one minute, he was getting his mojo back and another, he was a howling monkey mess.  I actually thought all the "let me go" stuff was so obvious and heavyhanded, that it was a red herring and he was going to part from Carrie in the finale alive.  I am sick of being jerked around because these writers can't commit to a storyline, because they teased a romance for 5 seasons and never took it anywhere.  In "R is for Romeo" Carrie ran into Quinn's arms, crying with relief he's still alive. It was a passionate, even romantic, moment that showed how much they needed each other.  But when he actually dies, she doesn't even weep, or cradle him, or react the way a person would when losing their best friend who just FRICKIN' sacrificed his life for them. And to gratuitously kill off Astrid, and bring up this possible Dar sex thing--why? The only person who ever told Quinn he was loved was DAR, for godssakes? I would have accepted Quinn's death if just one small, human kindness had been granted him by the writers. All  Carrie had to do was the simplest, most basic thing a person would do in real life--which is to tell her damaged friend that he was loved.  I could think of many ways that Quinn could have had  an empowering, interesting story about PTSD and recovery--a positive story for vets. Instead, we get the cliched war-hero death--a complete repeat of Brody--and him saving Carrie for the thousandth time.  All so we can watch her tremble-chin over Quinn next season and be haunted by another death she caused in part.   BAH. I'm done! All the Emmys to Rupert and I can't wait to see what he does next. But Homeland--you have exhausted my patience and my good will. 

Edited April 13, 2017 by venezia54

[venezia54]

Quote

 

Yes he will be back as a flashback or hallucination of Carrie like the one with Brody, fuck this show.

I'd tune back in for Quinn ghost sex! That would really make the floorboards creak. 

[Kel Varnsen]

On 4/10/2017 at 11:01 AM, Bannon said:

That development was the first indication to me this season that the writing on this show had become a dumpster fire again. No, folks, you can't have a high level FBI official make a cell phone call from the parking lot of a large building where a clandenstine disinformation campaign is taking place, then have the FBI official shot dead in his home a short time later, and not have the clandestine disiniformation campaign publicly exposed in about 3 days. Especially when the person the call was made to is going to be highly motivated to see the killers caught.

For that matter I really wonder what kind of international incident there was over the fact that Astrid was murdered on US soil. Surely she would have had to disclose where she was going. 

On 4/10/2017 at 11:37 AM, Ottis said:

I thought it was the opposite? Didn't Max say something to Carrie, while drunk, about "... they're making him out to be some kind of action hero or shit..." If I heard that right, I took that to mean that Max *didn't* like Peter. But admittedly I might have missed something there ... I had FF'd now and then because I was so aggravated by how slow the gang was to pick up on what was happening. I mean, when Carrie had the PE's COS on the phone after the blast and figured out the Delta guys may be assassins, didn't tell him and then said "Let me call you back." My god. 

Didn't Peter save Max's life in Islamabad? I can't see Max not liking him.

Not sure how i felt about this season, it was certainly exciting. And I was really happy we didn't get a Carrie off her meds/Claire Danes emmy bait episode.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 10/04/2017 at 2:43 AM, econ07 said:

Why did the President offer Carrie a job just to in all likelihood rescind it after the last scene?  If she knew she would betray Carrie, why offer the permanent job?  What strategic advantage does it get her? 

I wondered about that too. For that matter, it seemed like Saul either got a promotion or at least kept his job. If she was planning on arresting him, why keep him in your administration for 33 days?

Also what was the deal with that talk show asshole going on about the bible? Even if the swearing in happened behind closed doors, surely it would have been on camera and shown on every tv network. 

[Mabel]

this season was so haphazardly written and so frustrating that I went back to watch some of the previous episodes - from seasons 2 - 4 (that featured Quinn). God, what a completely self-serving, egotistical and obsessed-with-mission persona has Carrie always been! Quinn was already seriously damaged at the beginning of season 4, he wanted out but she had to drag him back into her vortex, torturing him with Ayan's story etc. She then turned him down at the end of season 4 and it was a downward spiral from then on. I'm totally with Rupert on his interpretation of Carrie/Quinn scenario - they could have never been together. that would have been so wrong on many accounts. He definitely deserved better. and I think Carrie only truly loved Brody - for him she was willing to sacrifice a mission.

so, I sincerely hope that in the next two seasons Max is not going to hook up with Carrie. He should stay as far away from her as possible. She is poison and should end up miserable and alone. I am not even sure she should get her kid back - seeing that she had zero feelings for the baby when it  was born and nearly drowned the girl at one point.

also, Quinn's interactions with Adal in previous seasons (take the fight they had in ep 3 of season 4) now take a whole new meaning, in view of season 6 reveal of the history of abuse.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Mabel

[Lady Iris]

I was afraid during the home visit with the social worker, she was going to ask about the locked up room with the Wall of Crazy still up on display.

[Mabel]

On 13.04.2017 at 3:07 AM, venezia54 said:

So what did Ganza do--flip a coin? That they shot almost the entire season not knowing Quinn's fate is why it was so inconsistent. 

 

I'm done! All the Emmys to Rupert and I can't wait to see what he does next. But Homeland--you have exhausted my patience and my good will. 

Absolutely! And they couldn't even kill off a character decently. For chrissake, the guy was on the show longer than his predecessor, Brody, and all he got was 'he's dead. There was a memorial'. Rupert himself sounds disgusted with how his character was treated. That's pathetic. Compare to the terrific send-off John Reese, another troubled black ops guy, got on The Person of Interest. That was a way to go. Homeland is sure lacking in the writing department.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Mabel

[Kel Varnsen]

So after thinking about this some more I really wonder how much Dar knew. He said in jail that the thing he set up got away from him, so I assume he had no involvement in the assassination attempt. And he didn't seem to want the black ops guy to kill Quinn at the cabin. But what else? Was he directly involved in the bomb in Seku's van? If so is he serving time for conspiracy to murder? 

Also how did Saul survive the motorcade bomb? When Quinn came out in the SUV the other cars looked like flaming wrecks.

Lastly in that scene with Carrie in the WH meeting room, I am surprised the president kept all those intel people on, whether she was going to arrest them or not. Mostly because the intelligence community in the Homeland world seems to generally suck. Just looking at this season all the ones who weren't involved in the conspiracy, failed to notice a conspiracy happening right under their noses. And it goes all the way back to season 1, where no one noticed that Brody was a converted terrorist. Other then Carrie of course, who noticed and then proceeded to fuck him (which is only slightly better).

[Norma Desmond]

Quote

Rupert himself sounds disgusted with how his character was treated

Yep. I wonder if there is some kind of beef between the major Homeland players and Rupert? That sucked. Quinn is such a beloved character. I am thoroughly disappointed with the show. Am probably not coming back for season 7.

[Mabel]

http://carrie-quinn.livejournal.com/200386.html - have never heard of the 'woman in refrigerator' trope,  but it fits Quinn's story perfectly: 

"Rupert Friend himself said that this is Carrie's show ... that it's about her journey. Why I find this interesting is that initially, Quinn was supposed to be the male equivalent of Women in Refridgerators.

For those of you who do not know, Women in Refrigerators is a term used in Comic Book Fandom, sometimes in SciFi Fandom and has become a term to describe a rather common trope where a woman's intense suffering is used to kickstart or progress the male protagonist's storyline. The woman is typically the protagonist's partner, family member, or love interest. The origin of the term was in a comic book story, where the protagonist found his female partner murdered, and hidden in his refrigerator.

Homeland is always described as Carrie Mathison's story with the core relationship being that of Carrie and her mentor Saul. Brody was a significant male lead, but ultimately his life, suffering and death were used to progress Carrie's storyline - showing us how her ethics were compromised, how she fell in love, how she was affected by his actions ... how she fell pregnant and became a mother etc.

Similarly, Quinn was introduced as a guest star to progress Carrie's storyline. Thing was, he stuck around and he was clearly more than just a Quinn in a Refrigerator. As time passed, he became a character in his own right with his own storyline, interactions with other characters and his own journey and backstory.

As I've observed before, I think there's a lot of behind the scenes crap that we don't know about ... the writers, Claire Danes, Mandy Patinkin probably did not like what they considerered the key storyline/characters being subverted for a character who had started out as a secondary character. Hence, by the time we get to seasons and 5 and 6, the show runners have tried incredibly hard to return Quinn to the role of Women in Refrigerators. They put him through intense, profound and almost ridiculous suffering ... physically and emotionally. It's pretty horrific. What I think is really interesting is that yet again, Rupert Friend somehow managed to overcome this attempt to reduce him to the Women in Refrigerators trope and remained an incredibly compelling, interesting and nuanced character .. "

[Norma Desmond]

4 hours ago, Mabel said:

As I've observed before, I think there's a lot of behind the scenes crap that we don't know about ... the writers, Claire Danes, Mandy Patinkin probably did not like what they considerered the key storyline/characters being subverted for a character who had started out as a secondary character.

That's exactly how I think things happened, especially reading  between the lines in Rupert's exit interviews.

[venezia54]

I have never entirely bought the notion that Carrie was in love with Brody, or more in love with him than with Quinn. If the writers hadn't sabotaged it, I believe she was well on her way to realizing that Quinn was The One. When have we ever seen Carrie as evolved or self-sacrificing as she was this season with Quinn? It wasn't all out of guilt.  As a person with bipolar disorder (happy and stable on meds now), I remember the kind of relationships I used to get into when I was younger and crazier.  I had a lot of Brody-style doomed romances where I risked all.  It fulfilled my insatiably manic need for excitement and fantasy. Even if you're not having a manic episode, the illness hardwires you to feeling that the roller coaster is your comfort zone. And there is a YUGE element of obsessiveness involved, which you delude yourself is love but isn't. One of the things this show got right about BPD was when Carrie said to Quinn's proposal of a relationship, "But I'll just f*ck it up". That is a genuine fear with this illness. With Brody, she knew deep down they were  doomed. That's why she could throw herself into it. If it's impossible to begin with, that absolves you of blame when it DOES go south. You can't be responsible for screwing up something that was destined to fail anyway. But to allow yourself a chance at a real love--that's far more terrifying.  It requires a huge leap of faith and trust, not just of your partner, but of yourself.  Brody never accepted her illness the way Quinn did. Hell, he used it against her!  Was Carrie in love with Quinn? I think part of her was, but they never really had a chance or the time to explore it. I find it unrealistic that Carrie never ONCE told Quinn how she felt about him, that she valued him, and that he was loved, even as a friend. And unforgivable of the writers to not have given him that before he died. And not fer nothing, but who wouldn't be in LOVE with Quinn? He wasn't just a moderately attractive ginger with terrorist tendencies. He was a tall, dark, handsome, mysterious hero. The very first scene in "New Car Smell", he dripped ROMANTIC LEAD. He had just the right amount of darkness to keep him interesting, and just the right amount of heart to make you feel that he could have found a healthy love, given half the chance. That Carrie was never in love with him was the hardest thing to swallow about this whole show! But that's what you get when have men writing female parts. 

[scrb]

I'm curious if Prisoners of War had the intelligence officer who suspected a terrorist Manchurian-candidate POW falling for that suspected terrorist.

Or if it's an American twist that Gansa and company put on season 1.

The Carrie-Brody "affair" carried the show for most of 3 seasons, supposedly Showtime/CBS executives wanted to milk it far longer than the show runners wanted it to last.

Or with Danes in the lead role, was there always going to be relationships drama in Homeland?  They could have focused on intelligence, counterterrorism, etc. but more and more, the boy meets girl aspect kept seeping into the story lines.

Jack Bauer had relationships in 24 but they didn't build the stories around his relationships.  No they based that show on implausible threats to the US, which Homeland has also adopted in its story arcs.

[penelope79]

I'm still on episode 5 of this season, but I had to check this thread because seeing Ruper Friend here and there made me realize Quinn was going to die in the finale. So I really, really need to ask this: what was the purpose of letting Quinn surviving season 5, if he was doomed anyway in season 6?

I'm really disappointed, to the point I'm not sure I'll be back next year. 

[watch2much]

I was ambivalent about the death of Peter Quinn.  I will miss the character but there was no way they could ever script it so he could be "normal" again.  He was not going to improve and it was painful to watch as it was.  He was a breath of air when he was in a scene, though. The others seem rather tired and boring.

[Ailianna]

3 hours ago, venezia54 said:

 And not fer nothing, but who wouldn't be in LOVE with Quinn? He wasn't just a moderately attractive ginger with terrorist tendencies. He was a tall, dark, handsome, mysterious hero. The very first scene in "New Car Smell", he dripped ROMANTIC LEAD. He had just the right amount of darkness to keep him interesting, and just the right amount of heart to make you feel that he could have found a healthy love, given half the chance. That Carrie was never in love with him was the hardest thing to swallow about this whole show! But that's what you get when have men writing female parts. 

Or there's always the possibility that different women are attracted to different things about different men, and there's not a one size fits all for love.

[Mabel]

11 hours ago, venezia54 said:

I have never entirely bought the notion that Carrie was in love with Brody, or more in love with him than with Quinn. If the writers hadn't sabotaged it, I believe she was well on her way to realizing that Quinn was The One. When have we ever seen Carrie as evolved or self-sacrificing as she was this season with Quinn? It wasn't all out of guilt.  That Carrie was never in love with him was the hardest thing to swallow about this whole show! But that's what you get when have men writing female parts. 

thank you for your insight about BPD! that certainly played a big role in Carrie's relationships, so it seems. the way it was portrayed, Carrie was definitely very passionate about Brody, and not so much about Quinn, especially in seasons 4 and 5.  she did care for him in a way in season 6 - but that was a case of 'too little, too late' and layered with guilt too boot. It was all just not enough to beat that 'unrequired love' vibe we've been getting (whether intentional or not). the scene with 'why' and Carrie's trembling chin was probably meant to portray that she does love him. why couldn't she say something to him??? make a guy feel a little better for once?

maybe the writers didn't want to repeat Brody's story (as far as I read, Brody/Carrie romance was not supposed to be a prominent feature in the beginning but the writers went along with actors' chemistry and the fan support). maybe they thought they'd do things differently this time. Sorry, it just didn't work. in the end we are left with Carrie, who's exhausted all possible story lines and I struggle to think of what they'll cook up for next season. just spare Max, please! mb have Carrie and Saul hook up, since both have invincible plot armor and will be the last two people standing at the end of the series run.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Mabel

[Milburn Stone]

On 4/9/2017 at 9:15 PM, Stealthy said:

I'm going to be super annoyed if they have Dar's doubts about Keane come to fruition...

Haven't they already?

This was a great season. I had my doubts about it in the beginning, but it turned out to be the best season (IMO) since the first one. In some ways even better.

[MollyZee]

I'm used to suspending disbelief for this show by now, but how Carrie made it from her Brooklyn brownstone to Washington D.C. in under a minute is asking entirely too much of the audience. 

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, MollyZee said:

I'm used to suspending disbelief for this show by now, but how Carrie made it from her Brooklyn brownstone to Washington D.C. in under a minute is asking entirely too much of the audience. 

I figured she took the next train, and i didn't need a boring scene with her sitting on the train drinking a coffee and looking out the window to tell me that.

[Mabel]

this is so funny and right to the point)))): http://carrie-quinn.livejournal.com/200526.html

[Milburn Stone]

Keane's purges reminded me of something even more than they reminded me of Hitler and Stalin. Sinclair Lewis' 1935 novel It Can't Happen Here. I fully realize that Lewis modeled his American story on the current events in Germany and Russia, but there was a flavor to the way it went down in this episode that was strongly redolent of Lewis' novel. I bet the writers read it.

I'm surprised to read some of the virulent reactions here to Quinn's death. ("Goodbye, show," etc.) His life and death were the stuff tragedy is made of, and tragedy is a form as old as drama itself. Pulling off a strongly moving tragedy makes me admire a show, not despise it.

[sunflower]

52 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

Pulling off a strongly moving tragedy makes me admire a show, not despise it.

I do agree with you that the tragedy of Quinn's death played in isolation of S6 and the episode, but it felt like overkill considering Q's place in the series overall.  Also, as a Quinn lover, it felt cruel, considering his almost death last year and my relief at his return this year.  I had hoped they were going to show him in recovery for stroke/PTSD and survive into at least S7.  But, they kept making it worse and worse for him-Astrid's death and his role in it, the monkey thing... I guess Dar was right when he said the lake thing was Q's last chance and there wouldn't be an other.  

What for Carrie next year?  the Future seems bleak for this show, but, maybe that's the point.  

Edited April 15, 2017 by sunflower

[scrb]

It's more like 24 than ever, the idea that American soldiers will actively plot to kill the president elect, causing collateral damage (deaths of civilian bystanders in the bombing of the truck and then death of the FBI guy, the Secret Service people, including the people  in the first SUV that got blown up).

It's hard to get past that.

Then Carrie is suddenly like a national security adviser.  It's one thing to consult her about Iran possibly cheating on the nuclear deal (though you'd think Keane would consult people who know the specifics of nuclear weapons development) and about the intelligence agencies (though she was fairly low level, not in a position to really know department heads up to the DCIA or the DNI).

But Keane was asking about possible tactical deployments in the Baltics.  What the F does Carrie know about military tactics?

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, scrb said:

It's more like 24 than ever, the idea that American soldiers will actively plot to kill the president elect, causing collateral damage (deaths of civilian bystanders in the bombing of the truck and then death of the FBI guy, the Secret Service people, including the people  in the first SUV that got blown up).

It's hard to get past that.

Is it really any harder to get past than what we saw in earlier seasons though? This is a show where the head of Al Qaeda snuck into the US, kidnapped a CIA officer then assassinated the vice president by hacking his pacemaker.

[scrb]

Yeah all that was ridiculous too.

[venezia54]

I quit Homeland after Season 2. I got really sick of the Carrie/Brody melodrama, and as a person with bipolar disorder, I started to feel like the illness (and Claire's buggy-eyed acting) was being used as a gimmicky plot device, as realistic as her portrayal often was. Carrie's ending up in the psych ward getting ECT was straight out of the "The Snake Pit" and cheap melodrama. I cancelled my Showtime subscription, and I kinda forgot about the show for years.  Only recently, my friend told me to catch up on it again. I said really, why? And she uttered one word: "Quinn. You have to watch for Quinn".  So I got sucked back in and binge-watched season 3-5, and then the current season. Saul and Carrie still annoyed me, but I thought the show was much better than it had been, now that Brody was gone. And I got really invested in Quinn.

So. My point. 

 My biggest problem is not that they killed Quinn off, or that Carrie and Quinn had no resolution, despite them dangling that in front of us for 4 seasons. My biggest problem was this notion that Quinn had a "good death", that he died true to himself, as a "hero" and this is how he would have wanted to go out. The showrunners made this big deal of saying they wanted to tell the "wounded warrior" story, but they did the same damned thing they did with Carrie's bipolar--turned it into a melodramatic cliche. Someone on a forum said that the horrors of war needed to be shown, that this was an important story to be told. Well, so is the story of mental illness. But to me, Quinn's death was just as cheap and cliched as Carrie's "snake pit" storyline.

Forget the fact that he died for the woman who caused his damage and never told him he was loved, even as a friend. Forget that he died for a president who, I guess, is now a bad guy. What bothers me the most is this idea that a soldier is only as good as his sacrifice, that once disabled, Quinn had no value as a human being.  The imagery of "garbage" is really interesting: in Season 5 when he went away to die with the bullet wound (which Carrie caused by making him go back to the mail drop), he was trying to find a dumpster to die in.  In the last episode, Carrie was unceremoniously throwing his clothes into trash bags. I get that Ganza wanted to make this big statement about vets being ignored by society and treated as disposable--and that might have been a valid story to tell. Except that he didn't just stop there-he piled abuse upon abuse onto Quinn--shot, beaten, gassed, SWAT-teamed, witness to his ex-lover's death, crazy and violent, possibly molested by Dar, and most cringeworthy of all, rejected by the woman he loved when he made a pass at her.  It was Carrie in the Snake Pit all over again.  It was all heavyhanded shock and awe and torture porn. And what is the message? That this person was so reduced to his former self, he had no right to love, a life, a family, recovery, less than a year since he came out of his coma? That as a soldier, he should be "happy" to die this way? That soldiers aren't people like us,  they're just sacrificial canon fodder?  If Ganza were trying to make a social statement about how we ignore and dispose of our wounded warriors, that's the statement he should have made. Instead of showing the waste of Quinn's death, he glorified it.  He reduced him to nothing more than the cliched hero who goes out in a blaze of glory. And what I really can't stomach--all these fans who say that he deserved such an end, that his being a "hero" is worth it, and that it was his choice and that he's better off this way. Wow. Tell that to our troops abroad. 

Edited April 16, 2017 by venezia54

[healthnut]

Just binged all 12 episodes this week. I thoroughly enjoyed the season. I'm okay with Quinn dying because at least he didn't spend the entire season bleeding to death or in a coma like last season. I needed him to come back and have a better death. In a perfect world, Peter and Carrie get married, move to the Caribbean and raise Frannie but they still have two more seasons and it's just not realistic to have them together for the next two seasons nor would've been fair to continue on keeping them apart. The real mistake with Quinn's character wasn't this season but treating him so poorly last season. 

I'm not sure what next season looks like but I'm all in.  And next season, I'll get Showtime when Homeland begins. This show is just way too intense to binge watch. 

[Mabel]

5 hours ago, venezia54 said:

 My biggest problem is not that they killed Quinn off, or that Carrie and Quinn had no resolution, despite them dangling that in front of us for 4 seasons. My biggest problem was this notion that Quinn had a "good death", that he died true to himself, as a "hero" and this is how he would have wanted to go out. The showrunners made this big deal of saying they wanted to tell the "wounded warrior" story, but they did the same damned thing they did with Carrie's bipolar--turned it into a melodramatic cliche. Someone on a forum said that the horrors of war needed to be shown, that this was an important story to be told. Well, so is the story of mental illness. But to me, Quinn's death was just as cheap and cliched as Carrie's "snake pit" storyline.

Exactly! maybe showrunners intended to glorify Quinn's death, but this is not what it came across like on the screen. It felt rushed, last-minute, and cheap. especially the way it got swept under the rug so quickly. and you are right about the message about discarded wounded vets. they could have told a much more rewarding story with Quinn. but, alas, they opted for yet another cliche.

[gallimaufry]

I really liked this although it felt like it needed another 20 minutes.

I haven't liked Keane all season but the final twist with her was golden and allows the show to slot much more neatly into the current climate without fundamentally changing anything about her character.  It reminds me of Greg Itzin talking about how in "24" many people found Charles Logan's turn from incompetent to villain redemptive (although I loved him in all modes).  Having a paranoid, inconsistent, dangerous head of state is going to make for an interesting backdrop to S7.  I really liked the way the Saul/Keane scene played the whole Prince Hal scenario and then immediately undercut it.

Peter's death was really surprising and sad but I had wondered how they could credibly bring him back for another season and he went out brilliantly.  He'll leave a big gap in the show.  Rupert definitely deserves an Emmy.  I think the writers deserve credit too for not backing down on the consequences of last season.  I hope there aren't any dream sequences.  I would have liked more on the memorial.  I don't see any evidence of some dark conspiracy around his leaving -- they killed off Brody for similar reasons and it seems evident that they were ambivalent about even putting him in S6 until they knew they had a role for him.  This is perfectly sensible and he basically inherited Brody's role in the show.

Max frustrates me.  He's been quite an important character at times this year and now he's back to being a footnote character to support an emotional moment for Carrie.  I feel like in 6 years, he's never really had much presence.

Dar also got short change here.  I wanted to see him finally brought to justice.  I did like that he wasn't quite as extreme as it seemed during the season.  Terrific character and I hope he'll be back in S7 somehow.

Carrie and Franny... difficult to really feel connected to this.  The social worker is contemptible but otherwise I felt like it took up time from more interesting things.  I hope they can sideline Franny as much as possible next season.

The hotel set-up, whatever its deficit of plausibility (and I don't watch these shows for procedural plausibility but as a "black mirror" on world events so none of that particularly bothers me), was a terrific action scene.  Made me think that this is the sort of thing 24: Legacy should have been doing.

Overall, the season started slow but overall is probably the strongest in the show's run.  I really enjoyed it.

[dwmarch]

On 4/10/2017 at 2:31 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I couldn't with Brett Blowhard. Who gives a shit if the President put her hand on a bible to be sworn in?

I think this was based off of the recurring notion that Obama was somehow a "secret Muslim" and was just pretending to be Christian. Utter fiction but also irresistible red meat to those who wanted to believe it.

On 4/10/2017 at 6:15 AM, ahpny said:

While attempting to whack the President by hitting the White House was part of the 9-11 plan, that wasn't its sole focus. Indeed, its perpetrators considered it success despite the White House-bound plane's failure to reach its target.

United 93 was headed for the Capitol. The WH is not as big as it looks on TV and would be difficult to spot from the air. As for the Capitol, Tom Clancy wrote out specific, explicit instructions on how to hit it with a jet airliner back in 1994.

On 4/10/2017 at 6:45 AM, TVbitch said:

RIP Quinn. I guess at least you avoided the ultimate torture which is being in a relationship with Carrie.

Indeed... The more I watch this show the more I realize Carrie is actually a pretty terrible person who gets what she wants by extortion, threats, bluster, emotion or just plain annoying the shit out of whomever she's talking to/demanding something from. I wouldn't wish her on my worst enemy.

On 4/10/2017 at 7:42 AM, attica said:

I was most worried when Saul was in the visiting room with Dar. Don't give him a writing implement, Saul!!! Haven't you learned your lesson about giving people sharpened pointed things in interview rooms?! Argh!

I noticed that too but also noticed that the pencil offered was very short and dull. However, bearing in mind how Saul must feel about Dar I'm sure Saul would have offered him a chainsaw if only he'd been allowed to bring one in.

On 4/10/2017 at 11:44 PM, Mabel said:

McClendon also has a back up plan - two deltas (with a hit order on PE, apparently?). When McClendon hears that PE is still alive he sends them in. what kind of spec ops guys are those? isn't ultimately PE their commander-in-chief in a way? how can they kill her in cold blood - (she is not some dictator in a third-world country)? or they know they are going completely black here? how exactly were they going to pin it all on Quinn as it was not even certain he would show up at the scene (his walking into the garage and being caught on camera was a little too convenient)?

McClendon was an extra layer of security called in at the last minute. His spec ops team is the same one that blew up that poor Muslim kid in the middle of NYC traffic. They were evidently True Believers. I appreciate that the sum total of heavily armed mooks was five (with one of those being deceased). Shows like Blindspot and The Blacklist have teams and teams and teams of ninjas who infiltrate everything, lead the good guys around by the nose and yet somehow never manage to succeed. Four or five pissed-off military contractors who drink the Kool-Aid I can believe - Timothy McVeigh's homegrown terror cell was three people. The frame job would probably have worked if the PE had actually been assassinated. Facts would not have prevailed over the person yelling the loudest, as we are unfortunate enough to discover in real life these days.

On 4/12/2017 at 0:52 PM, drekka said:

We know now that Dar really tried to help Quinn when he had him brought to the cabin under Astrid's care. O'Keefe & crew were working on Quinn's profile as Keane's potential assassin since a few months ago, why they wanted to kill him at the cabin? Because if they did kill Quinn, the whole "Toxic Soldier" thing would be useless... Any thoughts?

I am pretty sure that particular contractor recognized Quinn and knew he was being followed. Or he heard about Quinn's break-in to that motel on the highway. In any case, I am pretty sure he went off the reservation entirely of his own accord.

[Mabel]

7 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

Peter's death was really surprising and sad but I had wondered how they could credibly bring him back for another season and he went out brilliantly.  He'll leave a big gap in the show.  Rupert definitely deserves an Emmy.  I think the writers deserve credit too for not backing down on the consequences of last season.  I hope there aren't any dream sequences.  I would have liked more on the memorial.  I don't see any evidence of some dark conspiracy around his leaving -- they killed off Brody for similar reasons and it seems evident that they were ambivalent about even putting him in S6 until they knew they had a role for him.  This is perfectly sensible and he basically inherited Brody's role in the show.

Max frustrates me.  He's been quite an important character at times this year and now he's back to being a footnote character to support an emotional moment for Carrie.  I feel like in 6 years, he's never really had much presence.

Carrie and Franny... difficult to really feel connected to this.  The social worker is contemptible but otherwise I felt like it took up time from more interesting things.  I hope they can sideline Franny as much as possible next season.

If the writers go with the plan they've announced - take the next two seasons overseas and have Carrie back at the CIA, it might mean less Frannie. Although seeing that there is still somebody Carrie cares about besides herself is not bad. 

Hopefully, Max will receive a more prominent storyline next season. Preferably, staying away from Carrie. And I wouldn't mind Rupert in flashbacks / dream sequences (the one with Brody in season 4 was good)

[John Potts]

The ending here reminds me of the ending of the Pakistan season - they resolved it early and then spent the back half of the episode in clear up.

Peter Quinn clearly didn't WANT to live like that and probably would have WANTED to go out protecting the President. As for whether that was the right choice - as Quinn put it, they were inside the Kill Zone and had no way of identifying friend or foe, he judged their BEST option was GETTING OUT. Was it the best choice? Maybe not - but he has more experience of BEING in that sort of situation and had to make a call. (Incidentally, I don't think the agents that opened fire on the Presidential car were on Team Evil - they didn't know the President was inside and were just doing their job, IMO).

I'm also not sure that the ending necessarily implies Keane has gone "to the dark side". From her perspective, the Security Services SHOULD be torn down - aside from the fact that was her electoral mandate, as a result of the US Electorate choosing HER, the Secret Warriors decide they know better than the voters and  decide to have her removed or assassinated (and the ones that weren't involved either acquiesced or missed the greatest attempt to undermine US democracy ever). Carrie was either naïve or deluded not to see that the consequences of the attempted coup would be the wholesale revision of them all the Security Agencies.
 

Quote

slowpoked So because the whole thing with the PEOTUS assassination attempt moved really fast, I'm confused about one small detail. When McClendon asked his two guys to move in the hotel and "secure" the PEOTUS, are those military terms for "kill her"?

I was wondering which side he was on, too (which is why Quinn said it was impossible to tell friend from foe). The General had presumably briefed his hit squad and so they would know how to interpret his orders - but the General knows his treasonable actions may be overheard, so can't afford to say "Kill the President!"

Quote

 

slowpoked I would think Dar would be none too happy to involve him [right wing podcaster - O'Keefe?]  in his testimony, no? I don't think his radio show is enough to get him arrested

 

He's a bottom feeder for sure (and his hypocrisy is breath taking, but not surprising - he was attacking President Elect Keane for wanting to dismantle the Patriot Act, now he's complaining that she isn't doing so) but she really has to concentrate on people actually in government first. WE know O'Keefe was involved, but his show would be protected by the First Amendment and it would probably take time to build an actual case against him (though I definitely want it to happen).

Quote

dwmarch Carrie is actually a pretty terrible person who gets what she wants by extortion, threats, bluster, emotion or just plain annoying the shit out of whomever she's talking to/demanding something from.

Or in other words, she's a spy. Their JOB involves co-opting/coercing people into giving up information they aren't supposed to. They generally aren't very nice people.

Quote

 

Lemons Can't they make completely bullet proof windows?  No matter how close?

 

No. I believe it's technically called bullet resistant glass, but pump enough bullets into it and it will ultimately fail. The Secret Service(?) guys that shot up the limo presumably knew that if they kept shooting, some of their bullets would ultimately get through.

[venezia54]

On 4/14/2017 at 8:48 PM, Ailianna said:

Or there's always the possibility that different women are attracted to different things about different men, and there's not a one size fits all for love.

 Yeah, I was being a little  facetious about who wouldn't be in love with beautiful Quinn--but not that facetious.  The thing is--this isn't real life. It's TV writing, and to some extent, it has to follow the principle of Chekov's gun. What you introduce into the story eventually has to be  paid off. You don't introduce a romantic lead like Quinn and have Carrie be "myeh" about him. And she was clearly attracted to Quinn, and at times, in love with him.

[Pallas]

This isn't a show that's kind to romance or its consequences. If you are Carrie or Saul, there is no refuge in your homeland. Parents leave, go mad or both: it is worse if they never come back, or if they return. You will betray the love of your life, and feel that even more than his or her betrayal. Your lying colleagues are your family, and none of them has a spouse anymore, or ever had a child at home. 

For the sake of your homeland -- not yours, but what you imagine must be your neighbors' -- you are living, killing, comforting the dying to advance a foreign policy as fucked-up as Brody and Quinn. As fucked-up but in no way as beloved as the men who survived it, the men who were its front-line casualties. No love interest remains, only the "national interest." Maybe it must be the love of your life. Or your life, anyway, and never mind the rest. 

[artard]

I liked Homeland because of Rupert and Mandi. Quinn is dead and Saul is in jail... Don't see a point of continuing with Homeland.

It's like removing Norman Reedus from TWD.

[venezia54]

Quote

Pulling off a strongly moving tragedy makes me admire a show, not despise it.

If they had pulled off a strongly moving tragedy, I would certainly admire that. But in my opinion, they did the opposite. They did a rushed, last-minute, slopped-together edit and treated the male lead's death as an afterthought. That's because it was: they decided to kill him off last-minute and were editing literally a few day's before air date.  A death without catharsis for the audience isn't tragedy--it's just a death. I felt no catharsis here. I did with Quinn's "death" last season, where Rupert Friend wrote Quinn's letter and read it in voiceover, and homage was paid to a great character. Now THAT was tragic and moving. 

Quote

This isn't a show that's kind to romance or its consequences.

I don't think anyone who watches the show expects that there will be happy endings and unicorns. But if they are going to have the two main characters be inextricably, emotionally bound for 5 seasons, it would be nice to have SOME clarity as to what they feel for each other. In real life, you often don't get that. But this isn't real life, and the show has kept them so artificially and implausibly star-crossed, it's gotten ridiculous. It's one thing to develop complex, ambiguous characters. It's another keep them so open-ended you never give the audience any cathartic relief or resolution.  My issue isn't with shipping--it's with writing. But I'm going to shut up now! Other people love the show, and I'm just being negative. But it lost me this season with Quinn's disability storyline, which could have had a little redemption instead of endless torture and bleakness. 

Edited April 19, 2017 by venezia54

[VagueDisclaimer]

I really hope that Quinn is well and truly dead. It was cheap enough how they brought him back, only to continue to torture, barely allow him anything close to progression, to then kill him off in such a stupid way at the climax of another season finale. If any of you are Walking Dead watchers, it reminds me of what they did to Glennand just as disrespectful. In Quinn's case, especially with how so much focus was on his disability and recovery and how many articles focus on that with a reflection towards real life veterans. What a positive message!

Plus, Rupert Friend sounds very done with the show, with how his character was treated and Carrie herself. So, as annoyed as I am with how Quinn's story went, I see no reason for them to retread his resurrection because I see no evidence that the show's writing will improve. Let poor Peter, RIP. I'd say the same for the show but we got two more seasons to go. 

Edited April 24, 2017 by VagueDisclaimer

[Lemons]

On 4/14/2017 at 5:35 PM, scrb said:

I'm curious if Prisoners of War had the intelligence officer who suspected a terrorist Manchurian-candidate POW falling for that suspected terrorist.

Or if it's an American twist that Gansa and company put on season 1.

The Carrie-Brody "affair" carried the show for most of 3 seasons, supposedly Showtime/CBS executives wanted to milk it far longer than the show runners wanted it to last.

Or with Danes in the lead role, was there always going to be relationships drama in Homeland?  They could have focused on intelligence, counterterrorism, etc. but more and more, the boy meets girl aspect kept seeping into the story lines.

Jack Bauer had relationships in 24 but they didn't build the stories around his relationships.  No they based that show on implausible threats to the US, which Homeland has also adopted in its story arcs.

I never watched 24 but I watched Prisoners of War. I thought that show has even more family stuff and the difficulties of coming back after being a prisoner for 14 years and most people presumed they were dead. I don't think the shows are alike at all except for one plot twist. 

[TheRabbi]

I recorded the whole season the past few months and binged it over the past week (highly recommended strategy, and I'm excited to already have 7 episodes of The Americans ready to go next).

Overall this was probably my favorite the show has been since early season 2.  I didn't really care for the ending, with Keene so obviously being evil, but I thought the season was remarkably well put together, and moved along at a brisk pace, compared to last season which was a real slog at times. I thought Quinn got a proper farewell all things considered. He used all 9 of his lives for sure, and got to go down a hero.

I will say I wasn't quite sure I liked the direction at the beginning of the season, since that young man (Seku?) who was making the videos was getting no sympathy from me (can't be surprised to be detained and questioned after spouting all the hate), but after he died, the season picked up nicely.

I'll read some of the earlier comments and reflect some more, since I just finished.

[VoiceOfReason]

 

My question is, "How is Saul still alive???"  We see Saul go down the stairs and into the parking garage when the building is under bomb threat with the Pres elect Keane, Emmons (her chief of staff and young Obama look-alike), as well as some secret service guys.  They ALL go into the garage, where Pres elect Keane says "What about my staff?" to which, the security agent says "they are going out the back entrance."  She says "I can't leave without them," in defiance.  "Ma'am, my orders are to put you into this vehicle." The Pres elect then gets into vehicle #3 of 3.

Agent Tomms tells Carrie and Saul to get into vehicle #1 of 3.  He instructs Emmons to get into vehicle #2 which is also referred to as "the decoy."  Saul enters vehicle #1 and Carrie gets the call from Dar, telling her to keep the motorcade inside the building.  Saul is seen inside vehicle #1, and with the window down says, "Carrie! Come on.  We're on the move."  Carrie tells him to go ahead, and says that she'll ride with Keane in vehicle #3. Saul affirms by asking, "Are you sure?"

Now, as soon as the first two vehicles get out of the garage, an explosion which has a radius of at least 300 ft engulfs vehicle #2 in flames while vehicle #1 is on it's side just feet away from the exploded Chevy SUV.  I have tried to put images of the whole sequence as attachments, but the site isn't letting me.  If you go back, you can see that vehicle #1 which was carrying Saul had either exploded or had been completely blasted so hard that the massive SUV is on it's side, but there's no fire.  This is puzzling, but even still.  If vehicle #2, the SUV which was exploded stayed on all 4 wheels, and the vehicle #1 did not, how is Saul either not dead or in some type of coma?  Vehicle #1 is sitting on the passenger's side, where  Saul was seated in the  front seat.  Surely, the bodies of the driver and possibly those in the back seat may have made their way to the front, injuring him even more.  We see no first aid, nor do we see any one come out of either vehicle #1 or 2.  This left me scratching my head.

After Quinn dies, it fast forwards 6 weeks.  We see Saul in tip top shape, with no mention of his injuries, or the explosion, or the fact that he almost died as a result of a plan put in order by Dar, who he actually visits with cordially in jail.  This is also stunning how he can be so forgiving of Dar after the sheer insanity of what transpired against Saul throughout the season.

Ok, I refuse to wait a week in between episodes, as I abandoned my SHO subscription after Season 5. The show was too intense to wait, and Netflix/House of Cards has me conditioned to binge watch. SO, I did. I watched season 6 in 3 days. Watched the last two episodes a couple times each.  I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts, or ideas.  I'm guessing you'll just say that his SUV was not on fire, thus, he lived through it.  But please, re-watch that sequence and tell me if you think he could have lived, given the nature of the explosion.  Or tell me if I'm totally off.  I appreciate all feedback.

[grommit2]

Comments on this season:
1) Dark, angry, forced: too many of the bad guys were successful, not enough of the good guys were able to push through.
2) Reflected contemporary US discourse...which made this a crappy, crappy viewing experience.
3) The good guys were weak:  Saul was tricked by the Iranian and shoved to the ground, Dal humbled Carrie by mucking with her child (her CHILD for godsake), Quinn was physically hamstrung, then killed.)
4) The crappy guys were strong: Dal succeeded in mucking up the PEOTUS; that talking head media guy was despicably successful...more than any Tucker Carlson or Rush.  Gads, I get sick thinking of those idiots.

I get a headache just thinking of those clowns...being very successful in mastering contemporary communications media while the "good guys" just suck at it.  Geez, this season stressed the total failure of contemporary America to stay true to the good stuff.  Maybe the show just highlighted how impotent contemporary democrats are in articulating their views and acting on them. 
Oh well...

[Mabel]

On 25.04.2017 at 5:51 AM, VoiceOfReason said:

But please, re-watch that sequence and tell me if you think he could have lived, given the nature of the explosion.  Or tell me if I'm totally off.  I appreciate all feedback.

Heavy-duty plot armor. Mandy is one of the producers of the show. Enough said. We are all just supposed to completely suspend our disbelief and rejoice that Carrie and Saul will be able to 'further explore their mentor - mentee relationship'.

[Roseanna]

On ‎10‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 8:48 AM, Andromeda said:

Very sad about Quinn.

As for Keane, to me it turned into a self-fulfilling prophecy. The trauma the anti-Keane people put her through would make any rational person look for conspiracies under every bush (or in every department). Thanks to Dar and his wicked cohorts, he gave her a healthy dose of PTSD, so now she's not acting rationally.

I hope you are right. 

On ‎11‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 9:44 AM, Mabel said:

Why isn't O'Keefe in prison? He was caught on camera with Adal. Running the sock puppet factory. Saul got arrested for much less (for nothing, frankly).

O'Keefe also made Quinn's false profile in the net. I suspect he knew about the assassin.

On ‎14‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 11:57 PM, venezia54 said:

I have never entirely bought the notion that Carrie was in love with Brody, or more in love with him than with Quinn. If the writers hadn't sabotaged it, I believe she was well on her way to realizing that Quinn was The One. When have we ever seen Carrie as evolved or self-sacrificing as she was this season with Quinn? It wasn't all out of guilt.  As a person with bipolar disorder (happy and stable on meds now), I remember the kind of relationships I used to get into when I was younger and crazier.  I had a lot of Brody-style doomed romances where I risked all.  It fulfilled my insatiably manic need for excitement and fantasy. Even if you're not having a manic episode, the illness hardwires you to feeling that the roller coaster is your comfort zone. And there is a YUGE element of obsessiveness involved, which you delude yourself is love but isn't. One of the things this show got right about BPD was when Carrie said to Quinn's proposal of a relationship, "But I'll just f*ck it up". That is a genuine fear with this illness. With Brody, she knew deep down they were  doomed. That's why she could throw herself into it. If it's impossible to begin with, that absolves you of blame when it DOES go south. You can't be responsible for screwing up something that was destined to fail anyway. But to allow yourself a chance at a real love--that's far more terrifying.  It requires a huge leap of faith and trust, not just of your partner, but of yourself.  Brody never accepted her illness the way Quinn did. Hell, he used it against her!  Was Carrie in love with Quinn? I think part of her was, but they never really had a chance or the time to explore it. I find it unrealistic that Carrie never ONCE told Quinn how she felt about him, that she valued him, and that he was loved, even as a friend. And unforgivable of the writers to not have given him that before he died. And not fer nothing, but who wouldn't be in LOVE with Quinn? He wasn't just a moderately attractive ginger with terrorist tendencies. He was a tall, dark, handsome, mysterious hero. The very first scene in "New Car Smell", he dripped ROMANTIC LEAD. He had just the right amount of darkness to keep him interesting, and just the right amount of heart to make you feel that he could have found a healthy love, given half the chance. That Carrie was never in love with him was the hardest thing to swallow about this whole show! But that's what you get when have men writing female parts. 

There was just as a little chance for Quinn and Carrie as a couple as for Brody and Carrie. It was shown clearly in the episode 11: Quinn, as well as Brody, was doomed by his past deeds and he hoped to go.  That said, Carrie loved Quinn like a friend and comrade-of-arms, and it was a time when this was consired as the greatest love.  

I don't think Carrie is made for romantic love. Her lasting love is Franny, and it was no chance that Quinn who had lost his son, was the one that taught her that. 

 

On ‎17‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 4:33 PM, John Potts said:

I'm also not sure that the ending necessarily implies Keane has gone "to the dark side". From her perspective, the Security Services SHOULD be torn down - aside from the fact that was her electoral mandate, as a result of the US Electorate choosing HER, the Secret Warriors decide they know better than the voters and  decide to have her removed or assassinated (and the ones that weren't involved either acquiesced or missed the greatest attempt to undermine US democracy ever). Carrie was either naïve or deluded not to see that the consequences of the attempted coup would be the wholesale revision of them all the Security Agencies.

An interesting view. 

However, it wasn't that she made the purge, but how she made it. (One thing makes me wonder: the arrests were made in public - why on earth? In order to create fear?)

She deceived Carrie who had saved her life in order to to pacify Saul and others. And she would have needed both. One can't begin anew without at least some who know the job. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Roseanna
did more clearly

[Roseanna]

On ‎13‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 3:07 AM, venezia54 said:

But when he actually dies, she doesn't even weep, or cradle him, or react the way a person would when losing their best friend who just FRICKIN' sacrificed his life for them. 

That would have been a melodrama. It was much more impressing that Carrie cried only after six months.  

And it was just right for Carrie's character. She is a professional: she always puts her job first. In order to act, she must controls her emotions. Soldiers can't cry for their fallen comrades in the field - many cry after years, or even decades.

Generally, it's wrong to assume that those who show their feelings openly also have the strongest feelings. 

[clb1016]

On 4/19/2017 at 3:49 PM, venezia54 said:

They did a rushed, last-minute, slopped-together edit and treated the male lead's death as an afterthought. That's because it was: they decided to kill him off last-minute and were editing literally a few day's before air date.  

 

Hollywood legend has it that director Mike Curtiz put off filming the ending of Casablanca until the last day of the shoot because he hadn’t yet made up his mind whether Ilsa should end up with her husband or with Rick.  He decided to film it both ways and see which ending worked best.  SPOILER ALERT FOR 75-YEAR OLD FILM: after shooting what turned out to be the actual ending (i.e., Ilsa going off with Victor and leaving Rick behind), Curtiz didn’t bother shooting the alternate ending because he knew that what he had was perfect.

That said, I think the real mistake TPTB made this season was in allowing external events to influence what they put on the air.  Assuming they had a story arc in mind before they began shooting (perhaps not a safe assumption), they should have stayed with it instead of trying to keep up with the realities of the political landscape which, in my opinion, threw them off their game.

Sorry if I'm rambling, but I just think that creative people do their best work when they follow their instincts rather than when trying to keep up with what's current or trendy.

[John Potts]

On ‎17‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 2:33 PM, John Potts said:

I'm also not sure that the ending necessarily implies Keane has gone "to the dark side". From her perspective, the Security Services SHOULD be torn down.

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

However, it wasn't that she made the purge, but how she made it.

 

(I'll preface this by admitting my own biases: a I've said before, I'm a bleeding heart liberal, so bear that in mind):

There is obviously a debate to be had on how far liberty and privacy should be balanced against security. But the American people chose O'Keefe as their President to reform the CIA ("Once she gets in, this place is going to be gutted" - Saul Berenson): NOBODY elected Dar Adal, O'Keefe or the General who attempted the coup. Is she going too far? Probably. But at least Presidents can be removed from office (either by Impeachment or at the next election). Democracies generally perform better than dictatorships, not because the people choose better leaders (though frequently, they do) but because bad Presidents/Prime Ministers get voted out: it's a lot harder (and generally bloodier) to remove a bad dictator.

I would have been interested to see how the public as a whole were reacting to President Keane's "First Hundred Days" - the only prolonged reaction we saw was from O'Keefe (who was part of the coup attempt against her) and the CIA (who were either oblivious or complicit in it). Do the American public regard her as heroic for surviving an attempted coup by government officials who were sworn to protect her or as a dangerous lunatic? It would have been nice to know.

[Roseanna]

On ‎15‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 6:18 PM, Milburn Stone said:

I'm surprised to read some of the virulent reactions here to Quinn's death. ("Goodbye, show," etc.) His life and death were the stuff tragedy is made of, and tragedy is a form as old as drama itself. Pulling off a strongly moving tragedy makes me admire a show, not despise it.

I couldn't agree more. 

Asking why Quinn couldn't have a happy life with Carrie, is like asking why Oedipus had to blind his eyes, why didn't Anna Karenina and Vronski live happily ever after.

According to Aristotle, a tragedy is caused by hamartia, when the otherwise virtuous hero makes an error of judgment out of ignorance. As the audience feels horror and pity, they experience katharsis or purification. In Shakespeare's tragedies, heroes are no more virtuous. According to Hegel, tragedy is caused when the hero must chose between two values that are equally worthy. 

I think that the finale of S6 is most according Aristotle just because Saul and Carrie trust and help Keane and Quinn sacrifices himself to save Keane who then changes mentally and betrays Saul and Carrie. And even Dar fits in as he has been duped which causes that Quinn whom he loves in his own way dies.

Before all, this season asked the basic questions: has the general policy been wrong? is there no end to the secret war?    

Edited May 1, 2017 by Roseanna
correcting grammar

[Roseanna]

On ‎25‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 2:37 AM, TheRabbi said:

I didn't really care for the ending, with Keene so obviously being evil, 

I don't particularly like to divide characters either good or evil. Just for that reason I liked Brody who had to make real choices whom to chose. I undestand well how the death of the little boy made him decide to revenge on the Vice President who had ordered the bombing - and how his real feelings were manipulated.

As for Keane, she clearly overreacts after experiencing that those who were supposed to protect her tryid actually kill her, and I didn't like at all her when  betrayed Carrie and Saul who had helped and saved her and, before all, whose help she is going to need in the future.

But all that doen't necessarily make her evil. Let's remember how Carrie used the poor Pakistani boy in order to get his uncle.          

Edited May 1, 2017 by Roseanna
adding a word

[Roseanna]

On ‎15‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 8:29 AM, Mabel said:

in the end we are left with Carrie, who's exhausted all possible story lines and I struggle to think of what they'll cook up for next season. 

I don't think so. Either Carrie opposes Keane and tries to save the old CIA or, more likely, Keane notices when facing some threat that she needs Carrie after all. Also Carrie either puts Franny before all other things or she choses she country over her and loses he for good.