Season 1 Talk

[RainbowBrite]

5 minutes ago, MV007 said:

I don't know how the actors playing Hannah's parents do these parts.  I watch their scenes and I can't understand what their going through.  Like, I can't imagine being relatively normal parents of what seems like a nice young woman who kills herself.  How would they feel?  What would they be thinking?  Every time I try to think of answers to those questions I can't fathom the answers.

I'm at an age where I relate more to the parents in shows like this, rather than the protagonists who are teens. I mean, I remember how hard it is to be in high school but I was lucky to graduate before social media exploded (MSN Messenger was bad enough, thank you). I don't know how you go on after losing a child, especially to suicide. It's heartbreaking to watch.

Edited April 11, 2017 by RainbowBrite

[LonelyTown]

The suicide scene was hard to watch. Even harder for me was the scene where Hannah's mom found her. Ugly tears. 

When I saw Alex cleaning his room and his father complimented him, I knew for some reason that he was going to commit suicide. I'm sad we didn't see a resolution to that because I want him to pull through.

i didn't read the books but wow, what a great show. The acting was good, just, everything. Many of the characters were so 3 dimensional and I ended up liking almost all of them (except Bryce)

While I don't think a lawsuit would fly in the real world since the majority of these events happened off school property, I hope that the Bakers would file a criminal suit against Bryce after hearing all the tapes. My heart broke for them. 

Im going to go back and read everyone else's thoughts while I collect myself

[truthaboutluv]

2 hours ago, RainbowBrite said:

I agree. Teenagers are hormone-filled monsters, learning how to navigate in the world. They will all do something hurtful at some point. Ryan published her anonymous poem and a tape was dedicated to him; is that really equal to how Marcus or Bryce treated her? I understand that the show is making a point that it is a series of potentially inconsequential events that snowballed, but the way Hannah told her story pins (what I feel is) too much blame on certain parties (Ryan). 

Fair point. But I think the other way to look at the story and its message is that it is a reminder that what to us, may seemingly be a little thing, may for someone else be something big and so that's why we need to make more of an effort to try and be kinder and more empathetic to people. A little preachy, sure. And of course none of us will always get it right because we're human and prone to error. 

But the sentiment is still a necessary one. And the cynic may also call it schmaltzy and believe me, I'm the least Suzie Sunshine person (in fact I've always been considered by many to be a pretty cranky person) but I've always believed that a lot of problems could be solved if people just tried to be kinder to other people or at least treat them like you'd want to be treated. 

So yes, Ryan's publishing a poem isn't on par with Bryce's raping Hannah but the fact is she said she didn't want it published and he not only ignored her wishes, he essentially stole her work and then later opened her up to more ridicule and embarrassment. And in my opinion, the worse part of Ryan's action was his complete lack of remorse or apology after.

Even if you can argue that he was just genuinely impressed with her work and just wanted to have that work be shared and appreciated, when he saw the response after and how Hannah was being mocked because some figured out it was her and then she came to him so upset, he could have apologized. A simple and sincere "I'm sorry..." would have been nice. But instead he dismissed her and continued to be, as Alex accurately summed it up, a pretentious and arrogant ass. 

[tennisgurl]

I've given a lot of thought to how we are supposed to see Hannah and her actions. Really, I'm pretty sure we aren't supposed to see her as being the one perfect person in the school, she's a teenager who can be a jerk, just like a lot of the other characters. One of the main things I point to that supports that is the Zach tape. In Hannah's narration, Zach took one look at her note where she pored her heart out to him, crumpled it up, and tossed it without a second thought. When we see Zach in the end, however, we see that he was still carrying the note around in his wallet even after her death, and he had clearly read it and been affected by it. He just had no idea how to deal with someone unloading such intense emotions on him, although he clearly wishes now that he had done something else. Hannah just saw him as an asshole, but he clearly has a heart under the jock bravado. It shows that Hannah was so depressed and miserable by that point that she started seeing people being mean to her everywhere, even if its something that wasn't what it looked like, or isn't how it actually happened. Hannah could also be rather self centered (seeing relatively minor things as huge slights, the whole tape business itself) and had trouble communicating with people. There were so many times where she could have reached out to her parents for help, could have told Clay why she wanted to stop hooking up (really, its unfair as hell for her to be mad at him for leaving when she freaked out about them having sex and told him to leave multiple times. That's what people are supposed to do when their partner says stop, right?), could have told Jessica what happened to her, and she didn't. Its tragic that she took for own life before she could grow and mature and work through these issues. And, yes, she could certainly be judgmental, but that's high school for you. It doesn't make her an awful or unsympathetic person, or make her death any less tragic, it just makes her a person.

The whole show reminded me a bit of that episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer where Buffy temporally becomes psychic and starts hearing the thoughts of all the kids at her school. In the midst of the thoughts, she heard someone talking about killing people. She ends up finding the kid (who was suicidal, not homicidal as it turned out, and was heartbroken that no one saw how miserable he was) and tells him that the reason no one notices his pain is that they're all consumed with their own pain. From the glimpses we have got of most of the other kids, they all have issues, and they were too busy dealing with those to notice Hannah's problems. At least the people who might have actually done something. Even her parents were too busy worrying about their financial situation to notice what was going on. I can get not liking Hannah, especially seeing how much pain her death (and her tapes) caused, but I still liked and felt bad for her.

[truthaboutluv]

16 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

The whole show reminded me a bit of that episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer where Buffy temporally becomes psychic and starts hearing the thoughts of all the kids at her school. In the midst of the thoughts, she heard someone talking about killing people. She ends up finding the kid (who was suicidal, not homicidal as it turned out, and was heartbroken that no one saw how miserable he was) and tells him that the reason no one notices his pain is that they're all consumed with their own pain.

OMG, I thought I was the only one who always remembered that scene from Buffy. And it was the one I immediately went to while watching this show. That moment, which was years ago, always stayed with me. I remember the guy saying how much pain he was in and how no one cared and you expected Buffy to say the "right" and "proper" thing about how people do care and instead she said, "yes, we don't care because we're all dealing with our pain and just trying to survive high school." 

Edited April 12, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[The Mighty Peanut]

It's very hard for me to muster up much sympathy for Justin, even knowing his backstory and the emotional/psychological complexities of his friendship with Bryce. I just keep going back to Bryce basically announcing that he was going to go rape Justin's unconscious girlfriend under some bullshit bro code about sharing. Hannah failed her as well but she was terrified and froze. i think she couldn't comprehend what was happening in that moment while she was actively being traumatized. She didn't give permission.

[Kalliste]

I still don't understand why she did nothing. Both her and Justin knew what was happening and both did nothing at the time or afterwards. How could they let him get away with that? How could they not tell her?

I was hoping Clay would tell his Mum that the weed wasn't his and that she'd believe him and go back to the school and lawyer up on them. oh well.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 4/7/2017 at 6:46 PM, Kalliste said:

A lot of people have said they get a Veronica Mars vibe from this show which I'm not really seeing. Is Clay meant to be Veronica and Hannah is Lily? That being said, I get major Weevil vibes from Tony. Especially with the reveal at the end of this episode. He is the bad boy with a heart.

Now that I'm almost halfway through the episodes, I can definitely say that I don't get a Veronica Mars vibe from this show either. I mean, I get that a high school student died and her friend is working through the mystery, but aside from the Tony/Weevil similarity (which I agree with), the characters, the tone, etc. - nothing reminds me of VM. That's not a bad thing either. I loved VM but it had a very specific feel, none of which I'm getting from 13 Reasons Why. They just seem like very distinctly different shows to me.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I was really disappointed when I learned that Zach was the subject of this tape because he seemed nice. I guess at least what he did wasn't as terrible as what Justin, Tyler, et al did to Hannah. No, it wasn't nice to steal the compliments out of her bag, but in the grand scheme of things (and considering how shitty teenagers can be), this was almost nothing compared to what Justin and Tyler did. Honestly, I thought Pratters was a bigger asshole in the five seconds he had about fat people not being fat than Zach was in the entire episode.

I was really beginning to worry about Clay because he seemed on the verge of losing his shit. I know I've been harping on him dragging his feet about listening to the tapes but knowing that he was on medication and in therapy for "nightmares" before this (and seeing that he's now hallucinating as a result of the tapes) makes me understand his reluctance to jump back into the rabbit hole.

I know that what we call the truth is really only one version of what happened. We have seen Hannah as the victim because we have seen and heard this story from mostly her point of view (as well as Clay's point of view). But knowing that Zach didn't throw away her letter shows that even Hannah's version of the truth may not be entirely true. What we are hearing is the truth as Hannah remembered it, which lends credence to Jessica's concern that Clay wouldn't know Hannah was lying on the tapes.

 I still reserve judgment since I'm only halfway through the series but it does give some leeway to the other people involved. Obviously there are some things that we know are true since the stories were corroborated by other people (for example, Justin took that picture of her at the playground and then someone sent it to people at school) but the details are up for debate. Whatever is on Sheri's tape appears to be true because she told Clay she didn't want him to see her for whatever it was she did (not for what Hannah SAID she did).

I am tired of Tony telling Clay, "Let me help you." By doing what, Tony? Actions speak louder than words and telling someone you will help them is not the same as actually helping.

The compliment bags are something that I'm sure seems like a great idea when you're in a training session but are actually a terrible idea with real students. I was afraid that Hannah was going to receive hate messages. And of course someone like Courtney used them to campaign!

I've been wondering for a few episodes now what Skye's deal is, but I assumed she was just one of those people who hates the popular kids on principle. Now that we know she and Clay used to be friends, I want to know what happened between them.

[Paloma]

On 4/10/2017 at 8:25 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

But for the record, Hannah, Tyler, and everyone else needs to learn to close their blinds/curtains sometimes. I'm not doing any victim blaming here. I'm just saying that if your window doesn't face a brick wall, consider taking away a creepy stalker's option. And I say that as someone who once lived in a place where my bedroom window was right across from the dining room window of a family with three boys. I made sure to close the curtains every time I got dressed or changed. It's just common sense, people!

Yes! I kept saying this throughout the episode--couldn't believe how everyone left their blinds/curtains open at night with interior lights on. Of course, it is necessary for the plot, but it was still distracting.

On 4/10/2017 at 8:25 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Now that we're getting more scenes with the adults, I have to give the adult actors some praise. I am used to seeing them as other characters so it's been surprising to see Addison Montgomery, usually so polished and professional, looking like a vulnerable mess, or Vaughn Du Clark, evil douchebag extraordinaire, being a responsible principal who's trying to do the right thing. And I always think of Brian d'Arcy James as the musical theater guy so it's been interesting to see him in a dramatic non-singing role.

Agree on the praise for the adult actors, but I'm having a hard time not seeing the principal as Vaughn Du Clark--he made quite the impression in that role!

[MV007]

For me, Zach not throwing away the note is a bit of a red herring.  Its distracting.  At the end of the day he stole those notes.  He found that letter Hannah wrote and he knew what she was going through.  I completely understand him not knowing how to deal.  But to stay silent is unacceptable.  He deserved this tape.  This seems small but when I think about it, if I were having these depressing thoughts and I reached out to someone and they just ignored me, it would be soul crushing.

As for the compliment bags, I think you are assuming the worst in teenagers that it would automatically lead to abuse.  I won't deny that it is possible.  But if the teacher had created a safe space for these kids to be open then I think it could work.  I think the more likely scenario is that the kids who really need the help wouldn't get anything as they would continue to be invisible.  Although, in this case, Hannah wouldn't really qualify.  

[RainbowBrite]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Now that I'm almost halfway through the episodes, I can definitely say that I don't get a Veronica Mars vibe from this show either. I mean, I get that a high school student died and her friend is working through the mystery, but aside from the Tony/Weevil similarity (which I agree with), the characters, the tone, etc. - nothing reminds me of VM. That's not a bad thing either. I loved VM but it had a very specific feel, none of which I'm getting from 13 Reasons Why. They just seem like very distinctly different shows to me.

I didn't think of VM when watching, but once mentioned I definitely get the Tony/Weevil association. Other than that, the voice-overs bring another similarity. I also think that both shows represent high school similarly - more accurately and less polished that shows like Gossip Girl. Both shows also have rich kids with a lot of freedom/space (Logan, Dick/Bryce, Zach, et. al).

[ElectricBoogaloo]

First of all, Clay, those don't seem like the best shoes for rock climbing! Normally I would overlook that but considering that this is the guy who has ridden his bike into a parked car, I feel like it needs to be said. I know he wasn't planning to go rock climbing but still.

So Alex broke up with Jess because she wouldn't have sex with him, but now she's having sex with Justin?

Justin's "let's kill Clay and make it look like a suicide" had me shaking my head. We've all seen Heathers, Justin. No good will come of faking a suicdie.

Ryan can fuck right off. What he did was such a betrayal to Hannah. Despite the fact that he published it anonymously, he STOLE that poem and published it without her permission which is a terrible thing to do. And he didn't even have the common courtesy to type her poem so that other kids wouldn't recognize her handwriting? No one deserves to have their very personal writing or art put up for public consumption without their express permission. That's just so disrespectful on every level.

ITA that the college rep who told Hannah their financial aid goes to people with good grades was not giving her accurate information. I went to both a private college and a state college and both had financial aid for students with parents of different income levels. Sometimes it's Pell grants, sometimes it's federal loans, sometimes it's school funded scholarships or private scholarships (and scholarships are not just for people with high grades - I was on a scholarship committee and we awarded them to people who had okay grades but had good essays or couldn't cover their entire tuition, etc).

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I don't think I'm assuming the worst when we've already seen that Justin told people he had sex with Hannah and then slut shamed her for it, or that Alex put both Hannah and Jessica on that list just to hurt both of them. We've already seen that these kids behave like jerks to each other. Giving them another anonymous way to be mean to each other seems like a terrible idea. I was really surprised that Hannah wasn't getting any rude notes from other students.

Quote

I think the more likely scenario is that the kids who really need the help wouldn't get anything as they would continue to be invisible.

Zach, who is Mr. Popular, wasn't getting any notes in his compliment bag either, which he described as soul crushing, so it's not just the kids who need help who were feeling invisible as a result of the compliment bags.

[Lady Calypso]

15 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

ITA that the college rep who told Hannah their financial aid goes to people with good grades was not giving her accurate information. I went to both a private college and a state college and both had financial aid for students with parents of different income levels. Sometimes it's Pell grants, sometimes it's federal loans, sometimes it's school funded scholarships or private scholarships (and scholarships are not just for people with high grades - I was on a scholarship committee and we awarded them to people who had okay grades but had good essays or couldn't cover their entire tuition, etc).

Yeah, there's always a way to get even a little bit of financial aid. Hell, my parents are in the upper middle class, so they paid for my entire tuition but I still managed to get some financial aid to ease the burden. 

16 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

So Alex broke up with Jess because she wouldn't have sex with him, but now she's having sex with Justin?

I just took this as a sign that Jessica wasn't that into Alex as a romantic partner.

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Now that I'm almost halfway through the episodes, I can definitely say that I don't get a Veronica Mars vibe from this show either. I mean, I get that a high school student died and her friend is working through the mystery, but aside from the Tony/Weevil similarity (which I agree with), the characters, the tone, etc. - nothing reminds me of VM. That's not a bad thing either. I loved VM but it had a very specific feel, none of which I'm getting from 13 Reasons Why. They just seem like very distinctly different shows to me.

I only got that vibe when I first started watching it--I actually likened it more to a mash up of Pretty Little Liars and Veronica Mars, though. I came into the show totally blind. I saw a promo and thought it looked interesting enough to check out. Didn't know there was a book or anything. So, the first episode feels more like a teen mystery with the dead coming back to haunt the living and reveal all their secrets. By the second episode, though, I realized that wasn't the show I was watching and never thought about Veronica Mars again.

[DittyDotDot]

17 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Zach, who is Mr. Popular, wasn't getting any notes in his compliment bag either, which he described as soul crushing, so it's not just the kids who need help who were feeling invisible as a result of the compliment bags.

Yeah, seems to me it was set up to cause bad feelings no matter if one was "popular" or not. All it did was make it public who was getting "compliments" and who wasn't. What's that saying about good intentions paving the way to hell?

[DittyDotDot]

29 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

So Alex broke up with Jess because she wouldn't have sex with him, but now she's having sex with Justin?

Jessica and Justin's relationship is really messed up for so many reasons, but that's probably better left till a later episode discussion.

I'd guess Jessica really, really liked Alex but wasn't ready to have sex with him yet--judging by how upset she was when she thought he'd broken up with her for Hannah--and probably started having sex with Justin because she was worried he'd break up with her if she didn't, too.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yeah, seems to me it was set up to cause bad feelings no matter if one was "popular" or not. All it did was make it public who was getting "compliments" and who wasn't. What's that saying about good intentions paving the way to hell?

I agree with your post but I also saw that you had 8,999 likes so I wanted to turn it to 9,000! I think the compliment bags would work better with younger kids aka before they turn into complete assholes. Every time Hannah pulled a folded up note from her bag, I expected it to be something rude from one of the guys like just a note that just said, "SLUT."

I wish we'd heard Clay's explanation about keying Zach's car. He obviously didn't tell the parents the real reason so did he say, "I was just feeling like a dick"? I felt bad for Clay's mom that she so vehemently defended Clay and then he admitted that he did it. I wanted to wipe the smug look off of Zach's mom's face. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I noticed in a previous episode that she was getting sexually aggressive with him and then she got mad when he rejected her advances. In this episode we saw more explicitly that she, like many teenage girls, equates part of her worth with her sexuality which always makes me sad. Girls, don't assume that he doesn't like you or doesn't think you're pretty based on his behavior!

It wouldn't surprise me at all if she jumped into having sex with Justin to avoid a repeat of what happened with Alex (being dumped or humiliated as a result of saying no to sex). And I would guess that Justin was more aggressive/persistent than Alex was about having sex. 

I really wish that sex ed included how to give pleasure, not just pregnancies and STDs. I think girls would be more open to having sex if boys would realize that making them feel good matters. No, your inept groping does not make teenage girls want to lose their virginity!

Interesting that in the previous episode, we started seeing signs that Hannah might be an unreliable narrator but in this episode, Alex confirmed that what was on his tape was all true. I'm glad he admitted that and he owned up to what he did.

Edited April 13, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[fredthebasil]

On 4/10/2017 at 4:18 AM, nosleepforme said:

The next person would have been Bryce though. So he did actually not exactly do what Hannah asked him to do. With good reason of course. I still think however he should have actually left the tapes with Jessica rather than give them to the next person. With Hannah dead, she would be the most affected by releasing the tapes and giving them to the next person. It should have been her decision to pass them on to the guidance counsellor. And then again, of course Tony also gives a copy of the tapes to Hannah's parents, so in the end the whole show negates the idea of giving power back to Jessica, because the male characters end up doing what they think is right and Jessica has to be alright with the consequences of what the male characters decided. If Hannah's parents and Mr. Porter decide to make the tapes public for the trial, then she has no say in it at all.

 

 

I think that Hannah knew exactly what she was doing making Clay #11, Bryce #12, and Mr. Porter #13.  She ended with the adult, who, while he definitely did her wrong, wasn't a terrible person and could actually use the tapes in the legal case.  By making Bryce #12, she made sure he wouldn't hear about himself and just put a stop to the whole thing.  Although was he SO self-involved that he had no idea that every single one of friends was freaking out about something he didn't know about?  I think Hannah knew that Clay would never give the tapes to Bryce once he heard what had happened, and would skip over him to Mr. Porter.  I don't think any of the others would have given them to an adult.  It's pretty much the only way the tapes could have ever gotten where Hannah intended them to go.

And clearly I have no idea what I'm doing with the quote function - the second paragraph above is what I wrote.

[poppy-]

Two episodes so far and both made me tear up. But nothing adds up Hannah killing herself.  

What did the paper say- Hannah has the best ass?  They just showed it for a second, so I thought the content wasn't important so much as "teens being judgey". Now I need to go see, if it's what makes Jess freak out on her.

Jessica was shown to be a subpar cheerleader.  It would have been a lot more convincing if they had just skipped that little cheer routine before Bryce introduced the players. Afterward, the other girls were doing back handsprings and Jessica could barely do a round off (heh, to be fair, the cheerleader who talked to Clay mentioned that earlier).

She was lousy. In the moment I felt bad for the actress.  Now  I wonder if it's a plot point, because it was so noticeable.   Maybe that's the big secret between her and Justin, ha.

I like the watchful quality of Clay. Typical narrator who will grow up to be a writer (except it's not that kind of book?). Although   I wonder if the too clever, too wise view we get of Hannah is based on his POV and we'll see a different girl later. I'm kind of enjoying watching 1 a day instead of binging this show.

 

[MV007]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I don't think I'm assuming the worst when we've already seen that Justin told people he had sex with Hannah and then slut shamed her for it, or that Alex put both Hannah and Jessica on that list just to hurt both of them. We've already seen that these kids behave like jerks to each other. Giving them another anonymous way to be mean to each other seems like a terrible idea. I was really surprised that Hannah wasn't getting any rude notes from other students.

Zach, who is Mr. Popular, wasn't getting any notes in his compliment bag either, which he described as soul crushing, so it's not just the kids who need help who were feeling invisible as a result of the compliment bags.

I was speaking more putting this into practice in the real world.  While I am enjoying this show and can relate to the characters and how difficult that time in life is, this is Fiction.  

Just wanted to add, that I desperately wanted Hannah to find out Clay was drawing the rabbits for her.  But I guess if things like that happened then maybe we wouldn't have a show cause maybe she'd still be alive.

Edited April 12, 2017 by MV007

[NorthstarATL]

On 4/9/2017 at 1:03 PM, nosleepforme said:

Additionally, including Clay on the tapes seems awfully cruel on Hannah's part, especially since she keeps mentioning how heavily everyone contributed to her decision to commit suicide, but Clay actually has to go through ten tapes to find out that she is not really blaming him and that she thinks of him fondly, which you wouldn't do to someone you appreciate. You would maybe let it slip on one of the first tapes that he wasn't like the others, but instead Hannah decided to torture Clay with what he might have done to contribute to her death and that doesn't really track with her admiration of him. Then there's also very little time spent on why exactly she trusts Tony with the tapes (they've barely had any scenes together) and why he so loyally followed her plan. 

I think there is/was a certain cruelty/vengeance on Hannah's part in doing what she did, and, yes, even toward Clay and her parents. With Clay, she seemed to see him as a "way out", a savior of sorts, as seen from her point of view when they are together at the party. Just as with the last scene in the school where she expected Mr. Porter to come after her, or someone in the school to stop her, she puts a certain amount of blame on him for letting her push him away. There's a certain irony in the fact that she yells at various people to get away from her and physically pushes them when they are relatively harmless, but does none of that where it might have done her the most good, with Bryce. But who's to say that he WOULD have backed off? It's not ON her.

  Just to tell you where I am coming from, I was bullied in my first high school. BADLY. Only gay kid, and only kid not from some part of Scandanavia, a transplant from another state AND another country, as well as an adoptee. I was lucky that I ended up in a different school in my senior year, but I also there got to experience being a newbie at that school, though I didn't care much by that time. I have been raped (actually beaten, etc.) and have woken up from being passed out drunk in the middle of my boyfriend's "friend" having sex with me, so my reactions to the series are colored by all that. It was difficult to watch much of the series because I could feel for nearly every character. I kept yelling at Hannah for making stupid choices and then realized I was probably just yelling at myself in a way. High school sucks.

 

On 4/9/2017 at 1:04 PM, marieYOTZ said:

I found myself struggling most with how to deal with the counselor. He seemed like a decent guy, and at times during his meeting with Hannah was hitting the right beats, but something about the whole "well if you're not going to tell me who did it your only other option might be to move on" exchange left a bad taste in my mouth.  I can definitely understand why he didn't acknowledge that final convo to anyone after Hannah's death, because what a massive failure of seeing-the-signs. I found myself liking the guy throughout the series, maybe because i like the actor, but that final interaction with Hannah really disturbed me. 

That's the problem with his job. His training and the mandates of the system force him to ask questions and to look at things that fit into specific categories: things that can be dealt with officially. But someone like Hannah? Probably needed to get stuff out. He should have put her in contact with a peer counselor who had specific training in the area of sexual assault, and actually made the contact, not furnished her with a number or literature. But that's probably outside his training. He seemed to latch on to the drinking or drugs, and then, when the rape was brought up, who did it, not what Hannah herself needed. The problem is that anything that comes out of the Bakers' suit will likely be even more regimented, and possibly even less helpful.

  BTW, what town has stop signs on a wooden pole? That was ridiculous. Shari was negligent and it cost a kid his life (and us the best-looking cast member), but that whole thing was a stretch. 

   I was hoping that we'd get a secret past that no one else knew about where Hannah and Tony had frequent contact and became friends, but that would have ruined the isolation they needed Hannah to feel. Unfortunately, it makes Tony's investment seem that much more unbelievable. Maybe that was the point of the poetry guy at the end when Hannah was running her last errands? That Hannah had such tunnel vision that focused on these few people at school, and how they were treating her, that she could not see that there were indeed people who did care for her, and that she was ignoring or pushing away, perhaps "bullying" in turn from their perspective. Every story has two or ten sides, after all. 

[Ripley68]

This is how far I am, so this is where I'll put my first thoughts.  The principals comment about losing "2 students" perked my ears up too.  I'm thinking that the timeline covers more than just their junior or senior year - like, starts whenever she moved here (sophomore year?) and than moves through to the final events when she is 17. 

I think Jessica and Alex were supposed to go to the dance, than broke up before hand, and the dance is where she first hooked up with Justin.

I like how the guy Clay is tutoring doesn't seem to be an asshole (so far).  I also like how they lead you to the next tape by either introducing or showing more of that character in the tape before (Justin to Jessica to Alex to stalker dude to Courtney to Marcus). I'm spit balling that Bryce is who finally sends Hannah over the edge - what power does he have over all his little minions?

Want to read the book, wanted to read it before...I have it on hold for my kindle thru the library - I'm #15 on 1 copy!

[shoregirl]

  When Hannah talked to the guidance counselor it should have  set off alarm bells with him. He should have at the very least called her parents. I think if/when the tapes get out he probably loses his job. 

        What struck me the most was how they wrote most of the kids as sympathetic in a way. With the exceptions of Bryce (of course), Courtney and Marcus  (and maybe Ryan). Even Justin who did awful things and was a huge asshole I felt for him . What a terrible home life he had ,not that excuses anything he did.

Edited April 12, 2017 by shoregirl

[Lady Calypso]

Quote

I think that Hannah knew exactly what she was doing making Clay #11, Bryce #12, and Mr. Porter #13.  She ended with the adult, who, while he definitely did her wrong, wasn't a terrible person and could actually use the tapes in the legal case.  By making Bryce #12, she made sure he wouldn't hear about himself and just put a stop to the whole thing.  Although was he SO self-involved that he had no idea that every single one of friends was freaking out about something he didn't know about?  I think Hannah knew that Clay would never give the tapes to Bryce once he heard what had happened, and would skip over him to Mr. Porter.  I don't think any of the others would have given them to an adult.  It's pretty much the only way the tapes could have ever gotten where Hannah intended them to go.

Well, not only that, but Hannah was going in order of the events that happened. So naturally, she chose Bryce and Mr. Porter as the last two. The interesting part is where she put Clay, but even that makes sense. She feels like he was wronged when she completely pushed him out after their makeout session. That is where their relationship changed. So, instead of putting him last, she put him right at the moment of the party, because she wanted him to hear the tapes and understand fully what happened that caused her to pull away. She could have essentially put him before Justin's second tape, since their encounter happened before the disaster of the rest of that party, but she deliberately had him listening to the other two incidents before their own. 

[The Mighty Peanut]

On 4/11/2017 at 1:05 PM, laprin said:

Just finished and will need time to process. My immediate reaction is that I hope the book is better.
So much of this series seemed preachy and while trying to take a stand against being judgemental, manages to be judgemental. I'm not saying all of these very flawed characters were not worthy of being confronted with their actions and more (Bryce), but Hannah absolutely sat in judgment of each one of them and proclaimed them a contributer to her suicide. She gave every sin equal weight, every slight was intentional. 

I agree. She gave every sin equal and devastating weight, as though she alone suffered the most. Even though she was guilty about not intervening while Jessica was being raped, she still couldn't remove herself from herself enough to see that in the grand scheme of things the pebble started rolling when Jessica felt betrayed by *Hannah* over that stupid list. The list was the catalyst that made Jessica feel like she lost her best friend. So, there's one person Jessica feels she can't trust, however inaccurate it may have been. The other person Jessica trusted most *let his friend rape her* and lied about it until she received a cassette tape that said she was directly responsible for Hannah dying, and her father, while he seems like a decent person, obviously has high expectations that are hard for her to live up to, so she's probably afraid of disappointing him by telling him she's been drinking, having sex, and engaging in weird, self-destructive behavior with a guy who fucked her unconscious body. Honestly, I really feel for Jessica. In a sense, she became a rape victim and a murderer on the same day...and then she had to share it with people before she was ready lest the other copy be released and cause even more suffering. She lost her friend, her boyfriend, her peace of mind, and her ability to believe people will look out for her. One violation after the other. But it's all about Hannah's pain.

The only point I'd make is that the story wasn't going for whose actions truly deserve confrontation as much as they were trying to highlight the utter waste of life. Overall, I like Hannah. Her thoughts were diseased and shouldn't be compared to those of a non-suicidal person. But I wonder if we the audience are supposed to think she suffered the worst of all, because she just didn't.

Edited April 16, 2017 by The Mighty Peanut

[Eeksquire]

Quote

Tyler's lack of self-awareness was a little jarring.  He really doesn't seem to understand how creepy he is.

Sadly, in my experience that is true to life.  Was it Six Feet Under that had a girl run into traffic and get killed because her guy friends were 'pretending' to chase her down a dark street at night? Even well-meaning guys just Don't Get It sometimes.

[BSB]

I was sad and shocked that Jeff had died, even tho he wasn't in any present day scenes. The show did give it away though in the episode with the dance. My sister who watched after me knew Jeff had died before this episode. In the scene where Clay hallucinates Hannah bleeding on the floor, everyone disappears but Jeff, who is in the bleachers clapping with an apparent head injury. Clay must have hallucinated him too.

Edited April 13, 2017 by BSB
Spelling

[Riplet68]

Is it wrong that I didn't think what zach did was all that terrible?  In the scheme of things, I can see why she would add it up with everything else though. If the note was as heavy as implied, I can see why he freaked out. I keep wanting her to be alive at the end...but know that isn't possible 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I did wonder if it was a deliberate choice to have Jessica be a bad cheerleader, like maybe she only got on the team because she was dating Justin? Since they had cheerleaders/tumblers for the rest of the team, they could have easily found someone to double for her in that scene. But Sheri specifically mentioned to Clay that Jessica was only doing a round off  

I always assume that whoever is on the team was chosen fairly because my high school brought in actual judges and D1 collegiate cheerleaders to select the team. Later in life, a girl told me that at her high school the cheerleader selection process consisted of the girls doing a cheer in front of the whole school at a pep rally and then the students voted. I was like whaaaat?!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

 I haven't read the book so I went into watching this show totally unspoiled and then last night I accidentally got spoiled about what happened in this episode. Ack! I hate being spoiled because I don't want to anticipate what's going to happen, but since the episode had the warning at the beginning it wouldn't have been much a surprise anyway. In a way knowing about Jessica's rape ahead of time may have been a good thing so that I was mentally prepared for it.

I understand why Hannah's dad was so upset about the school not taking Hannah's poem seriously, but part of me thought hey, maybe Mr. Porter just doesn't get poetry, Mr. Baker!

It was sad to how hard Clay was trying to get Hannah to go to Jessica's party. If only he had put that much effort into asking her on a real date. Hannah bringing up the party with her parents when she wanted them to tell her not to go reminded me of when Angela wanted her dad to tell her not to go out with Jordan because she didn't want to have sex with him.

I know there are only a few episode left, but I am so tired of all these other students telling Clay to watch it, behave himself, etc. It seems ridiculous that they've been threatening him over things he hasn't even heard yet.

So Jessica and Justin's official two month anniversary was the beginning of their junior year because they started dating during summer school, but they were already flirting and drinking together at the winter formal so it took them months to actually hook up officially?

Now that I'm not a teenager, I can appreciate the parental/adult characters a lot more. When Clay was asking his mom about the hypothetical case, she kept interrupting him to ask things like "Is this why you keyed that kid's car?" SHUT UP AND LISTEN. I get that his parents know something is going on with him and they want him to talk about it but seriously, know your audience. If your kid isn't telling you stuff, is asking incessant questions going to get him to confide in you?

I wish Clay had told his mom that the weed wasn't his. He had no problem telling the counselor and the vice principal that so why not his mom? His mom would have probably told the school to fingerprint the bag to show that Clay never touched it! He knows that his mom believes in him (as shown by how fiercely she defended him when Zach's mom accused him of keying the car). I guess maybe he just gave up because he's so tired of everything.

At least now we know that Marcus is a complete dick. What he did to Hannah before was totally inappropriate and out of line, but framing Clay with drugs to shut him up? Raging asshole.

[Kalliste]

I also felt sad when I realised I hadn't noticed Jeff was missing through the present episodes. I also questioned who had died when they mentioned another student but his name never entered my mind. Poor nice Jeff.

I wonder if Clay's parents didn't even know he had found Jeff at the scene? They do seem a bit clueless though. 

I was wondering where Jessica was going with showing Bryce the gun safe and getting him to hold it. I assume she's got some plan up her sleeve and will have to wait and see what it is.

[Paloma]

On 4/11/2017 at 10:09 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It's sad to me how brazen people are about being assholes. Marcus went from charming and flirty to grabbing Hannah's leg in two seconds. The sense of entitlement these boys have is so gross. Yeah, showing up an hour late gives you the right to grope a girl in public. And as usual, everything ends with slut shaming. As if he hadn't rattled her enough by grabbing her (even after she told him to stop) he then announced to the entire restaurant that he thought she was easy. Guys like this make me so mad. And look at the not surprising reaction: Hannah wonders what she did.

Yeah, at this point in the series (and I'm sure it will get worse) I'm thinking that almost all high school students--but especially guys--are horrible. I want to believe that this is fiction and that really most high schoolers are good kids, but after reading all the real news stories of sexual assault and cyberbullying in the last few years, the story presented in this series is all too believable. 

On 4/11/2017 at 10:09 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I really felt for the parents again in this episode. Hannah's mom is trying to hold it together while still trying to understand how she didn't know what was going on with her. Meanwhile Clay's mom is also trying to figure out what's happening with her kid. Have these parents already forgotten what it was like to be a teenager and not share everything with their parents?

Me, too, especially since my experience as parent of a moody high schooler is more recent than my experience of being one. I often get annoyed at Clay's mom for being so intrusive, which I'm sure makes him even less likely to tell her anything, but I also understand that this intrusiveness comes our of her love and concern. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

First of all, Sheri's claim that doing a cartwheel means you're okay to drive is completely false. It's called muscle memory. If you don't believe me, ask any gymnast or dancer to do something impressive looking when they're drunk.

Why all the debate about whether Jeff was drunk or not? Why didn't they just test his blood alcohol level?

I'm so sad that one of the only people at this entire school who wasn't a dick died senselessly.

Mr. Porter has been on my monitor since he lied to the principal about meeting with Hannah only once and then flipping through a thick file. I keep waiting for him to do something super shady, so Ryan's pointed remark to him about consequences makes me think that Mr. Porter has some sort of secret too. Heh, for a second I thought he might be Bryce's weed dealer.

Wilson Cruz - yay! I love him and as happy as I was to see him here, I'm always sad when he gets these small roles because he is so good and deserves bigger roles.

Is it wrong that I was slightly disappointed when Jessica didn't end up shooting Bryce?

As for Hannah being depressed enough to commit suicide, I think it's a lot easier for adults to blow off the things that happened to her as no big deal because they're no longer in that situation, but high school is so different from adult life. I always think about what Nick Hornby wrote about breaking up with someone as an adult vs breaking up with someone in high school. As an adult, you have more choices. You can stay in. You can avoid bars/restaurants/places you know the other person will be. You can not answer your phone. You can hide out at home and binge watch tv shows and order take out. But in high school if something, anything, happens, you are stuck in a building with the same people 7-8 hours a day, 5 days a week. You can't avoid people who you're mad at or who have hurt you. You have to sit in class with them, see them in the hallways, etc. And as we have seen, teenagers are not always the kindest, most considerate, or most tactful people. They can be real dicks, so imagine dealing with that 40 hours a week while you're nursing a broken heart or trying to get over being called a slut by a boy who you only kissed. Yes, teenagers can be drama queens but their angst is not always an over reaction.

I'm glad that Alex was mad about Marcus getting Clay suspended, and I cheered when Ryan asked why they were protecting a rapist. Those two things plus Tyler approaching Sheri to say that maybe they could talk to Clay (instead of resorting to threatening him) make me hopeful that people are finally beginning to break rank with Marcus, Courtney, etc. Part of me wishes that Clay would just give the tapes to his mom and let the truth come out to the adults of the town (and the three students at school who haven't heard the tapes).

Edited April 13, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Paloma]

Little question driving me crazy: What does "FML Forever" mean? I assume this is something like BFF but can't work it out. 

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Is it wrong that I was slightly disappointed when Jessica didn't end up shooting Bryce?

I don't think so. No. Definitely not wrong! ;)

[Empress1]

On 4/6/2017 at 10:22 AM, DittyDotDot said:

I will say that there is bigger things to come and Hannah does start to isolate herself more, but I think that's kinda the point of the whole show. No one commits suicide over just one thing, but the accumulation of many little minor things. Alone, any of these things seem rather silly, but piled on top of each other they start to weigh someone down.

And there is a reason why most people don't understand why someone would kill themselves in hindsight. It always seems so small potatoes in comparison to such a finite decision as suicide. But, to that person in that moment, it feels to them like it's so big they can't see anything else. What the show does most, IMO, is remind us that what we might perceive as nothing effected someone else profoundly.

My friend's student committed suicide at least in part over a bad midterm report card. He was 13. As adults, we know that a bad midterm report card in middle school means literally nothing. I'm in my 30s and I have no idea what grades I got in 8th grade, other than "good" (all my grades were good), and I can name at least a hundred people I know personally who struggled academically at some point and are doing well now. Hell - you can erase a bad middle school report card in months, if you pull your grades up. The kid had the kind of parents who, if he had come to them and said "I'm drowning," would have immediately set about getting him a life raft.* But he couldn't see past it, and now he's gone. I can absolutely see why Hannah made the choice she did, particularly after 

Spoiler

she gets raped and Mr. Porter basically tells her to forget about it.

*This is in part why I feel so horrible for Hannah's parents - yes, they were busy, but there's nothing about them that indicates that they wouldn't have immediately tried to help Hannah if she'd gone to them. She didn't have to go through this alone.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

4 minutes ago, Paloma said:

Little question driving me crazy: What does "FML Forever" mean? I assume this is something like BFF but can't work it out. 

 

FML = Fuck My Life

It started as a blog in 2008 and became an app in 2009.

Edited April 13, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Okay, Tyler was the one giving me Brian Krakow vibes due to his "I get to stalk people because I'm the yearbook photographer" thing, but Clay gave me Krakow vibes in the party scenes. Of course he would wear a button down shirt to a party, show up early, and end up sorting the chips.

Most of the time when dancing or music is involved on tv shows, there is no actual music (so the actors' dialogue can be heard) and the extras are told to dance to silence. Seeing the kids awkwardly dancing in the backyard of the party gave me secondhand embarrassment.

Although Justin is still a little shit for what he did to Hannah, I have felt for him in this episode and the previous one because he is not equipped to deal with Jessica's acting out. I think he was telling the truth in the last episode when he told Clay that he's protecting Jessica, not Bryce. He thought that Jessica not knowing was better for her peace of mind. I'm not saying he made the right choice and I know that this choice was self-serving because it meant not admitting his complicity and not upsetting the status quo, but I think that in his mind he was saving Jessica from knowing she had been violated and that he truly thought he was protecting her from that knowledge.

[Ripley68]

These last couple of episodes I have become disappointed in myself.  I didn't see what Zack did as all that terrible (it was... but he didn't slut shame her, or actually publically humiliate her), and I totally understand why Ryan did what he did - it was a great poem and he was hoping she would see that it would help people.  Unfortunately, the teenage brains at the school only saw the "black panties" and "naked" parts and didn't actually read it for meaning like the English teacher was trying to get them to.  Part of me is saying "suck it up Hannah."  So far, the worst offenders are Justin (which was actually Bryce, but Justin went along and than just kept adding to it), Jessica, Alex, Courtney, the stalker (I can never remember his name) and Marcus. Did they change her method of suicide from book to movie? Would there be a reason why?

[Lady Calypso]

3 minutes ago, Ripley68 said:

These last couple of episodes I have become disappointed in myself.  I didn't see what Zack did as all that terrible (it was... but he didn't slut shame her, or actually publically humiliate her), and I totally understand why Ryan did what he did - it was a great poem and he was hoping she would see that it would help people.  Unfortunately, the teenage brains at the school only saw the "black panties" and "naked" parts and didn't actually read it for meaning like the English teacher was trying to get them to.  Part of me is saying "suck it up Hannah."  So far, the worst offenders are Justin (which was actually Bryce, but Justin went along and than just kept adding to it), Jessica, Alex, Courtney, the stalker (I can never remember his name) and Marcus. Did they change her method of suicide from book to movie? Would there be a reason why?

For me, I am in the boat that Zach did a stupid thing out of revenge, but he's not a bad person. Ryan, on the other hand, was a dick about his whole situation because he just couldn't admit what he did was wrong. The issue is that he ripped the poem out of Hannah's book without her permission, and just photocopied the poem to put in his magazine, where several recognized her handwriting. He could have minimized the damage that he did by typing it out so it would be harder to trace the poet. Also, it's not his place to post something so personal to someone. Writing is a personal thing to many people. If they don't give permission, then it can be more damaging on their self esteem. Just because Ryan's fine with posting all of his things, it doesn't mean Hannah was. I remember in high school, I wrote a poem that apparently all the English teachers liked, so my teacher asked if it was ok to read the poem to the class. Teens can be cruel, so it's not ok to steal a poem and post it without their permission. It can be downright humiliating. 

[Kalliste]

11 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Why all the debate about whether Jeff was drunk or not? Why didn't they just test his blood alcohol level?

I was wondering this too? Wouldn't they have tested his blood to see if he was drunk? Did they really just assume he was because he had a case of beer?

[Kalliste]

Poor Clay. Minnette really was great in the scene where he just breaks down and cries. I felt so sad for Clay having all that on his shoulders. There really was nothing more he could do in that moment, anyone would have left if told to get the fuck out. I wish she had just told him to stay. 

Does this mean the scene in the beginning where he apologises about the night before is after this night or after when he first saw her new hair? I'm a bit lost in the timeline. Have we even seen the day after the party other than Hannah going to Clay in tears about Jeff and him telling her to piss off. Could that really have been his next interaction with her? I can't believe he wouldn't at least ask what the hell happened the night before.

Poor Jeff too. He was so lovely and just wanted nice things to happen to Clay.

I also wonder if we'll ever find out the deal with Skye and Clay. Did their friendship break down over one misunderstanding?

Edited April 14, 2017 by Kalliste

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 4/9/2017 at 8:42 PM, tennisgurl said:

I was surprised he ended up at Alex's house, considering they're usually at each others throats, and even more surprised that Alex let him stay the night. It was really nice of him to help Justin when he was clearly struggling, even though they don't really get along. The scene in the kitchen of Justin wolfing down dinner and waxing on about how delicious it is while Alex was awkwardly telling him not to choke (ouch) was rather cute, considering everything that's going on around it. I do think Alex is a nice kid, even if did something really crappy.

Justin only ended up at Alex's house out of pure desperation because no one else was responding to his texts. I felt bad that Justin was SO desperate he would even consider showing up at Alex's house and basically begging someone who he's been clashing with if he could sleep in the garage. Even when they weren't disagreeing about how to handle Clay, Justin was a dick to Alex just the other day because Jessica was concerned about Alex's stomach. To have to go to someone you've been openly antagonizing and have to admit that you need their help is really humbling, which shows how badly Justin needed a friend.

I think initially Alex disliked Justin on principle because Jessica started dating him, but he began to actively dislike him after he listened to the tapes and heard what Justin did to both Hannah and Jessica. But seeing Justin devouring leftovers made Alex see that whatever is going on with Justin, Alex is lucky to have parents who are nice, feed him well, and have a safe place for him to sleep at night.

I don't think Alex and Justin will end up becoming BFFs in the next two episodes, but I think that the two of them going to Bryce's because Jessica was there bonded them a little bit. It made them realize maybe we don't like each other, but we both care about Jessica and don't want her in a situation like that with Bryce so we can put our shit aside and do the right thing.

1 hour ago, Kalliste said:

Poor Clay. Minnette really was great in the scene where he just breaks down and cries. I felt so sad for Clay having all that on his shoulders. There really was nothing more he could do in that moment, anyone would have left if told to get the fuck out. I wish she had just told him to stay.

I also wonder if we'll ever find out the deal with Skye and Clay. Did their friendship break down over one misunderstanding?

This is why I was mad about Tony telling Clay that yes, he killed Hannah before listening to this tape. I think Tony already knew that Clay would blame himself at least a little bit for Hannah's death, but to pile it on him like that was just mean. Listening to him hysterically list all the things that happened after the party that he blamed himself for broke my heart. Instead of being relieved that he wasn't in the car with Jeff, he blames himself for Jeff's death because Hannah was in the car with Sheri. I mean, DUDE. I hope he tells his parents he needs a therapist because he needs someone to talk to about all of this stuff besides Tony the Unhelpful Yoda.

I'm glad that Clay went to see Jeff's parents. I understood why the dad was suspicious but I was like COME ON, just let this kid talk to you about your son. I think parents often forget that the person they see at home is not always the person that their friends see. I'm not saying Jeff was leading a secret life or anything, but a lot of kids put on a different face with their parents. Hearing from Clay could give them an idea of what Jeff was like with his friends at school.

Yup, it sounds like Skye and Clay aren't friends any more because of the first day of school, which is sad.

[Paloma]

On 4/8/2017 at 0:16 PM, tennisgurl said:

I laughed super hard at the awkward "you know I'm gay right?" conversation between Tony and Clay. Clay just had the most confused expression on his face, even as Tony told him that he was sure that everyone at school already knew. I appreciate the show throwing in a few comedic scenes, in between the never ending high school misery.

I appreciated the humor also, but the conversation made me wonder why Tony has not been a target of bullies at the school. Is it just because they know his "tough" reputation? 

The rest of the conversation between Tony and Clay also made me wonder about the nature of the relationship between Tony and Hannah and how/when it began. In a previous "present time" episode we saw that her mother greeted him as if he were an old family friend or good friend of Hannah's, but I didn't see signs of Hannah having much of a connection with him in the flashbacks. Why would she have given him the tapes and entrusted him with the responsibility for making sure people hear her story?

For that matter, Tony and Clay seem to have history (with Clay's mother knowing Tony and his father) as well as the Hannah connection, but it's unclear what that history is. I'm assuming that they were childhood friends who maybe grew apart in high school, but why is Tony so protective of him?

Edited April 14, 2017 by Paloma
Edited because as an editor I should know that "here" is not the same as "hear"

[MsNewsradio]

12 hours ago, Kalliste said:

I was wondering this too? Wouldn't they have tested his blood to see if he was drunk? Did they really just assume he was because he had a case of beer?

This bothered me a lot. There is no way that under the circumstances of the crash that his blood alcohol level wouldn't have been checked. Due to the nature of the accident they would have done a full tox screen to see if he had either alcohol or drugs in his system.

[Paloma]

On 4/13/2017 at 7:54 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I understand why Hannah's dad was so upset about the school not taking Hannah's poem seriously, but part of me thought hey, maybe Mr. Porter just doesn't get poetry, Mr. Baker!

If I had read that poem out of the context of the show, I probably would not have thought it meant that the writer was suicidal. Poets or would-be poets use dramatic imagery and often write about dark themes, but most of them are not suicidal or even seriously depressed. If the school staff were paying attention, there were plenty of warning signs about Hannah and other students, but I don't think the poem could reasonably have been seen to be one of them--especially since her name wasn't on it.

I also think that Mr. Porter has really tried to reach out to some students, but they keep stonewalling and/or lying to him. There is only so much a counselor or other school staff can do to help without accurate information. 

[Paloma]

On 4/8/2017 at 6:02 PM, tennisgurl said:

maybe if Hannah had said something earlier, Brice wouldn't have gotten away with it.

Maybe it will become clear in later tapes/episodes, but I don't understand why Brice is not depicted as the main villain in this tape and why he apparently does not have his own tape. Justin can certainly be blamed for not doing more to stop the rape or for lying to Jessica, but Brice is the rapist (and also sexually assaulted Hannah in a previous episode, when they were in the store). Why is everyone, and especially Justin, protecting Brice to the point that Justin is wanting to kill Clay to prevent the story coming out?