S12.E16: Ladies Drink Free

[catrox14]

What I don't get is why the boys are taking the BMoL word for this monster eradication they claim. Like why not send Cas or Crowley or someone else to verify these claims.

It could all be complete bullshit and they just want to come into the US to stake a claim. Maybe they are under the gun from hunters in the UK or MI-6 or something else.

This is the one part of all this that makes the absolute least sense. Sam and Dean do their homework. Why the aren't now is baffling to me.

[rue721]

I personally have a hard time buying the BMOL's claims of having wiped out every supernatural creature/event in Britain. 

But at this point, it probably doesn't even matter whether they're telling the truth. Sam and Dean have a fundamental moral/ethical/philosophical problem with the BMOL's kill-em-all approach, so it's irrelevant whether that approach is as effective as the BMOL claim. Even if it's completely effective, Sam and Dean still aren't going to be OK with it.

Re info from the trailer for the next episode:

Spoiler

If Eileen is going to be in the next episode, hopefully she'll shed light on what's been going on in Britain, though, too. She's Irish, and her family was murdered by a siren in Ireland, IIRC? Not technically Britain, but close enough that she could plausibly have a clue about what's been going on there wrt the supernatural.

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

But "innocent until proven guilty" has been Sam's message from the very beginning, with virtually every monster they've come across--including the ghost in Road Kill, Jack the rugaru, and all the way up through Kate the werewolf (not to mention Garth's whole pack) to the pishtaco.

Which is why his reaction to Benny was so of out character. I know that it was a retcon to create tension between the brothers but that still irks me. I wonder if he would have still been as open to their methods if Lenore hadn't already been killed in season 6 and her coven had been wiped out by the BMOL.

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

(Though apparently that hasn't occurred to Dean yet, or he wouldn't have mentioned Garth by name. *sigh*)  

I wonder if this means that Garth will reappear this season as a result of his pack being targeted by the brits.

[Lemuria]

Quote

"It's my life... I get all the votes". Im not the biggest fan of Claire, but I'm pleased that she called Dean out on his overbearing, to the point of being disrespectful, tendencies. I also loved that Sam backed her up and Dean was made to realise that he was in the wrong for trying to steal Clare's right to decide what happens with her life. 

I have to respectfully disagree.  This makes me think of the people who insist on their right to build their houses on flood plains or barrier islands, and who equally insist that no one else, especially that there dang gummint (or the taxpayers) can tell them not to.  And I'd agree if all the consequences of that decision fell on them.  But no, they want the taxpayers to build them levees and jetty walls to help protect the houses that shouldn't be there in the first place, or even more, to rebuild them when they get wiped out.  There's an old saying:  "He who pays the piper, calls the tune."  It's your right--until you stick your hand in my pocket and expect me to shoulder the cost of your choices.  That gives me the right to tell you where you can put your house, IMO.

It's the same here for me.  Ms. "it's my life...I get all the votes" wants to be the only one with a say in her choices--until they go bad.  Then it's "Dean and Sam (and Jody) to the rescue."  And since by then, it's all gone south, it puts the Winchesters in danger to rescue her (and pulls them away from possibly saving other people who didn't get themselves into the mess).  She proves over and over that she is not capable (or smart) enough to hunt on her own but she never seems to learn the lesson.  She continues to lack the maturity to recognize her faults and failures, or to control her tendency to rush into things and do stupid stuff.  

So, yep, as long as they have to pull her chestnuts out of the fire on a regular basis, they get a say in what she does.  They're absolutely right, IMO, to tell her to get back to hunting with a more experienced and knowledgeable person and to learn how to actually do the job.

 

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I don`t think Glynn treats Sam hateful or contemptuous in her episodes, despite apparently prefering Dean. Which is a lot more than I can say for Perez in the reverse. This episode focused a lot more on Claire and Mick but it wasn`t unfair to either brother either. 

I agree:  When Perez' first ep was too long, his solution was to write one of the two main leads out of 20-25 minutes of the episode.  In his other two eps, Dean has been irrelevant.  He could have been written out and nothing would have changed.  It's clear that Perez neither likes nor know what to do with Dean.  

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Also, even the one vampire (besides Benny) that they let live, Lenore, stated that she broke. Her entire nest went back to feeding on humans and she willingly died because the bloodlust was so great. 

But there was a reason for that:  the Alpha was commanding all vampires to come to the fold.  He was raising an army (as were the other Alphas.  Another idea with possibilities that went nowhere) and Lenore indicated that they had been unable to resist his call.  

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He did the exact same thing to Sam in season 9 when he lied to Sam for months because Sam didn't get a vote on whether he wished to be possessed or not. 

 A number of fans have repeatedly claimed that Sam was angry with Dean because Dean let him be possessed by an angel.  But you know who never said that?  Sam.  His whole spiel was "I wanted to die and you didn't let me.  You don't respect my choices." An incredibly stupid position for Sam to take--since pretty much the last thing Sam told Dean before Sam went comatose was that he wanted to live and that was why he stopped doing the Trials, so Dean had every reason to think that saving Sam was what Sam would want.  Yes, Dean knew that Sam wouldn't be thrilled with the idea of even temporary possession but since as far as Dean knew he was dealing with a stand-up angel (Ezekiel) who would help Sam and heal himself at the same time and then would leave Sam, it seemed to be a win-win.

It would actually have been very hypocritical of Sam to be bent out of shape about what Dean believed would be a temporary situation, when in season 8 we watched Sam force an escaping demon back into an innocent host, for the express purpose of killing that demon and the innocent host.  And in season 9 (I think it was) he had no problem with having Crowley possess someone to get information.  So really, he didn't have a leg to stand on if he had complained about it.  Which he didn't.

I saw Dean in the same position as a family being told that there were two options in regard to their comatose son, who had a leg infected with gangrene: lose the leg or lose his life.  They would probably believe that their son wouldn't really want to lose his leg but they'd make that choice anyway:  You can still live a productive and even happy life with one leg, but dead is forever.  Unfortunately, being comatose tends to abrogate voting rights.  Having Sam be possessed temporarily by an angel was the last thing Dean would want to do but if it was the only choice left, he would take it, especially believing as he did that Sam wanted to live. 

JMO. YMMV.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Lemuria

[companionenvy]

3 hours ago, Lemuria said:

It's the same here for me.  Ms. "it's my life...I get all the votes" wants to be the only one with a say in her choices--until they go bad.  Then it's "Dean and Sam (and Jody) to the rescue."

But Claire hadn't been asking anyone to save her, in this case. She and the Winchesters just happened to be on the same hunt. 

In any case, she wasn't saying "I get all the votes" in regards to being a hunter, but to whether or not she wanted to try a risky procedure to reverse the lycanthropy, rather than trying to live with it and possibly putting others at risk.  In that respect, yes, I think she DOES get all the votes. She wasn't suicidal or mentally impaired in any way, and she's at least 18 by now. Nor was she even being irrational. In fact, I think Claire's most mature moment was her recognition that while some werewolves might be able to fight it, SHE couldn't, because it would require a level of self-restraint and stability she simply didn't have given the life she had led. 

I do think that Sam and Dean should  have elaborated on the option of going to live with Garth's pack, which would have painted a somewhat more palatable and hopeful picture of what it might be like to live as a "vegetarian" werewolf. I doubt it would have changed Claire's mind, but it would have made her choice more informed. But even then, in the end, it did have to be her choice.

As for Dean letting Gadreel possess Sam: I don't judge Dean as harshly for that as parts of fandom do, and Sam himself ultimately admitted that he would have done the same. On the other hand, I think it very much was a violation of Sam's consent, because unlike the case of the comatose person, there actually was a way of letting Sam make the choice, rather than relying on the fact that Sam had earlier said he didn't want to die (which is different from "I don't want to die even if living requires me to be possessed by an angel"). The only reason Dean didn't give Sam the choice is because he thought Sam would probably say no, which is why he essentially tricked him into consenting to Gadreel. It also took a long time for him to even try to tell Sam what he had done -- and again, the only reason he didn't is because doing so would risk Sam withdrawing the coerced consent and dying.

The closer comparison here would be tricking a Jehovah's Witness into signing a consent form for a life-saving blood transfusion (which their religion forbids). Sure, courts have (rightly) ordered JW children to be given transfusions over their parents (and sometimes their own) objections, but adults have the right to decide, no matter how foolish you or I may find that decision. And again, I would have great sympathy for a family member who decided not to follow a loved one's wishes in this respect, even to the extent of trickery -- but that doesn't make it right.

But replies to this should probably go in the all episodes thread. 

[Aeryn13]

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So, given the qualities of the species, "cool" is a fairly reasonable response to  "almost every vampire in this region has been destroyed," and not one that necessarily precludes Sam from believing that the occasional vampire might be deserving of survival. 

With the way the show has used Sam specifically as a moralizing lecturer over the years, that he jumped on the BMOL`s "genocide is awesome" policy in that one episode with such gusto could never not be awkward at best and hypocritical at worst IMO. The BMOL don`t sugarcoat what they want to do because they don`t see anything wrong with it. Dean has expressed he is not inboard with it in this episode. Sam has said both yes and no so far in different episodes. I`d like a definitive answer. Maybe the writers of the individual episodes should reach a consensus and all keep to it.     

[ILoveReading]

12 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Great point. Dean isn't as pigheaded as some make him out to be and he doesn't always think that his way is the only way. He definitely has a dominant personality and he's very assertive when it comes to the well being of those that are close to him but he doesn't ignore dissenting opinions if they're more logical than his.

This might belong more in the unpopular opinion thread but I find Sam is the far more stubborn brother once he makes up his mind.  He very rarely will consider another's point of view.  Ruby, going into the cage, and now the Brits this season.  Sam decided they were all good ideas and wouldn't listen to anyone telling him otherwise. 

9 hours ago, bearcatfan said:

Which brings me to a point I made back in "The Raid" thread. If that is the case, then they are not going to come to the attention of the BMoL either based on how they hunt them. They don't have a vampire detection device. At least not that they've mentioned. They shouldn't be able to find vampires unless they are actively drawing attention to themselves. Combine this with the fact that Sam and Dean don't have a specific vampire to be concerned about, I can understand the reaction may be different. It's plausible that Sam never considered that they were killing vampires that aren't feeding on humans because they wouldn't be attracting attention. I'm not sure why they should assume that monsters who stay off the radar would be killed because if they stay off the radar, the BMoL shouldn't know about them.

The problem with this if the Brits are truly as efficient as the show is trying to make them out to be, they've just basically made Sam and Dean irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, and how ineffective they've actually been.   Because the Brits have taken out more monsters in months then the boys have in decades.  Sam and Dean are now just employees and 2nd fiddle to the almighty British Men of Letters machine. 

If the Brits are finding them because they are drawing attention why aren't Sam and Dean seeing dozens of newspaper articles about multiple bodies drained of blood. 

[DittyDotDot]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

With the way the show has used Sam specifically as a moralizing lecturer over the years, that he jumped on the BMOL`s "genocide is awesome" policy in that one episode with such gusto could never not be awkward at best and hypocritical at worst IMO.

I don't think Sam jumped on the "genocide awesome" wagon, but he didn't really think it through what they were doing. I think he was moved by Mary's want to give them a life without hunting coupled with all the tech and resources that it made him starry-eyed. I just don't think he truly understood what they were about, but naively thought they were of the same mind in wanting to make the world a safer place. Now that he has a better sense of them, we see he's not at all on the "genocide awesome" wagon. 

Looking back on it now, it was probably more than just Jensen needing time off that had Dean not be part of the vampire raid on the BMoL compound. Dean would've rightly side-eyed everything too much and made Sam question things more if he were there. And the show needed Sam to not ask the right questions or think too hard about joining them. 

10 hours ago, rue721 said:

Can't the BMOL just travel around aiming their vamp-killing device everywhere, whether they know there are vampires in the vicinity or not?

The BMOL-mobile would be like the Google Earth car, but instead of a camera, they'd have an anti-vampire ray gun mounted on their roof, and instead of mapping every road in the country, they'd be systematically wiping out a species.

Hee! So many missed opportunities here! ;)

10 hours ago, rue721 said:

I personally have a hard time buying the BMOL's claims of having wiped out every supernatural creature/event in Britain. 

But at this point, it probably doesn't even matter whether they're telling the truth. Sam and Dean have a fundamental moral/ethical/philosophical problem with the BMOL's kill-em-all approach, so it's irrelevant whether that approach is as effective as the BMOL claim. Even if it's completely effective, Sam and Dean still aren't going to be OK with it.

I also can't believe Britain is supernatural-free. I mean, ghosts alone... . I still think there's probably a monster underground running circles around the BMoL. But, yeah, it doesn't actually matter if it's true or not at this point. The issue isn't the results as much as the tactics to get those results.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

This might belong more in the unpopular opinion thread but I find Sam is the far more stubborn brother once he makes up his mind.  He very rarely will consider another's point of view.  Ruby, going into the cage, and now the Brits this season.  Sam decided they were all good ideas and wouldn't listen to anyone telling him otherwise. 

I agree that once Sam sets his mind to something, he's pretty single-minded about it, but I wouldn't say he won't listen to others either. I mean, jumping in the cage was only going to happen if everyone agreed. And, I think the situation with the Brits hasn't been him being stubborn as much as him wanting to try something new. It doesn't appear he's digging his heels in like he did with Ruby, anyway. 

I think Dean tends to react strongly and take charge of situations when he feels they're out of control. Like with standing up to John when he was being reckless in S1 or in Bloody Mary when Sam wasn't in the best head space in wanting to be bait or locking Sam in the panic room when he was off the rails in S4. But, generally, if the situation proves to be less out of control by showing there are options and plans and it's not just someone being completely reckless with their life--like here with Claire--he generally will support and work his damnedest to make sure whatever plan is successful.

That's what makes Dean such a great leader, IMO, he's quick with a plan of action when nobody else can come up with one, but also able to hear other people's ideas to make a better plan. 

9 hours ago, Lemuria said:

She proves over and over that she is not capable (or smart) enough to hunt on her own but she never seems to learn the lesson.  She continues to lack the maturity to recognize her faults and failures, or to control her tendency to rush into things and do stupid stuff.  

Well, she is young and immature as most 19-year-olds are. But, I wouldn't say she never learns the lesson. I think her calling Jodi at the end showed she had matured quite a bit. Sam was right, if she wanted them to stop treating her like a little girl, she needed to stop acting like one. Being honest with Jodi is the first step in that. It shows that she's taking responsibility for actions rather than blaming her actions on how other people treated her. Getting bitten was an accident that could've happened to any hunter, but her standing up and admitting that she couldn't control it was also a much more mature Claire than we saw previously. TBH, I think Claire showed a ton of lesson learning in this episode.

Edited April 2, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[bearcatfan]

Ireland is a part of Great Britain. Great Britain consists of Ireland, Scotland and England. 

[Pondlass1]

On 3/31/2017 at 7:46 AM, Geordiegirl1967 said:

@bearcatfan The United Kingdom (UK) consists of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.  If Adam is from Dublin, then he's not from the UK.  He's from the Republic of Ireland.

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

Ireland is a part of Great Britain. Great Britain consists of Ireland, Scotland and England. 

I was thinking that it would be kind of interesting if there are hunters in the Republic of Ireland, since it's not a part of UK, and in Scotland, which still holds votes on becoming independent from the UK (even if they don't pass), who have chosen to mostly eschew any involvement with the BMoL and act more like American hunters.

Edited April 2, 2017 by catrox14
Northern Ireland is the UK.

[rue721]

It's kind of confusing, because on the one hand, I would assume that the BMOL aren't operating in Ireland bc it's not part of the U.K., so it's not under their purview. But at the same time, the BMOL is apparently now trying to operate in the US, which isn't under their purview, either. So who knows what the relationship btwn the BMOL and the Irish hunters are.

I would think it would be exceptionally unfriendly bc I assume that the BMOL would have caused a monster exodus from England into the "outer reaches" of the U.K., aka Scotland, Northern Ireland, maybe Wales, and an even more desperate monster exodus toward the Repub of Ireland. But who knows. It'll be interesting to hear what 

Spoiler

Eileen has to say about the subject, if the show decides to cover that at all.

[Wayward Son]

On 1 April 2017 at 2:36 PM, ILoveReading said:

I don't think Dean was trying to deny Claire's right to choose.  I think he was just scared of losing someone else he cares about.   Living as a good werewolf can be done whereas the cure Mick was offering was unproven and also coming from a source Dean doesn't trust.  A very high chance of death.   I think it was more about him wanting Claire to choose the option that gave her a greatest chance at survival.

 

On 1 April 2017 at 2:56 PM, Myrelle said:

He also has an intense aversion to and fear of losing people that he loves. That's what that scene was about more than anything, IMO. 

I totally agree with you both that Dean's behaviour was motivated by a fear of losing someone he cares about. He is not a control freak who wishes to control the lives of those around him for the sake of having control. However, in my opinion, he has an ugly tendency to act on this fear in a manner that is disrespectful to the person in danger as his initial reaction is to ignore their views on the manner i.e "you have no vote".  In my opinion, It is this initial reaction that Dean needs to be called out on when he behaves that way, and that is why I am glad Claire did so rather than meekly follow his order not to take the cure. 

I think my post may have come across as harsher than I meant it to as I honestly have no major issues with Dean's conduct this episode. I admired him for acknowledging that the decision did indeed lie with Claire. I also loved that he continued to show respect for Claire by later asking "are you sure this is what she wanted?" The question showed us Dean still had his misgivings but abided by Claire's wishes in spite of them. 

Actually in spite of the fact I'm generally more of a Sam fanboy Dean was my favourite this week. I loved that he continued to show his disdain about working with the BMoL, that he was assertive when Mick tried to criticise his hunting strategies and the intelligence he displayed when he instantly realised the werewolf girl's death wasn't natural. All in all it was a good Dean episode for me and I'm sorry if my post came across as Dean bashing. 

 

On 1 April 2017 at 4:38 PM, catrox14 said:

Assuming that Sam was 100% sincere that it was Claire's life and she had the right to make her own choices, then I hope that he was considering not only Dean's unilateral decisions about Sam, but also his own unilateral decision-making (i.e taking Dean to a faith healer unbeknownst to Dean even though he knew Dean was/is/was an atheist and he would hate it; the months he spent hunting the Trickster to save Dean & his attempts to find a way to get Dean out of his deal even when Dean warned him to stop because then Sam would drop dead; when he cured demon!Dean against demon!Dean will , and worked to remove the Mark of Cain in spite of Dean telling him to stop).

I'm going to be a little nit picky here! I agree with you on most of the examples of Sam making unilateral decisions. The only one I would contest is the decision to cure Demon!Dean against his will. In my opinion Dean was not in a position to make a true decision on this. He was not his true self as he was a demon and lacked the humanity that made Dean who he was. This of course works both ways. For instance Dean was right to rensoul Sam against his wishes as Sam was not in the position to make an informed decision as he lacked his soul and thus wasn't himself. 

11 hours ago, companionenvy said:

But Claire hadn't been asking anyone to save her, in this case. She and the Winchesters just happened to be on the same hunt. 

In any case, she wasn't saying "I get all the votes" in regards to being a hunter, but to whether or not she wanted to try a risky procedure to reverse the lycanthropy, rather than trying to live with it and possibly putting others at risk.  In that respect, yes, I think she DOES get all the votes. She wasn't suicidal or mentally impaired in any way, and she's at least 18 by now. Nor was she even being irrational. In fact, I think Claire's most mature moment was her recognition that while some werewolves might be able to fight it, SHE couldn't, because it would require a level of self-restraint and stability she simply didn't have given the life she had led. 

I do think that Sam and Dean should  have elaborated on the option of going to live with Garth's pack, which would have painted a somewhat more palatable and hopeful picture of what it might be like to live as a "vegetarian" werewolf. I doubt it would have changed Claire's mind, but it would have made her choice more informed. But even then, in the end, it did have to be her choice.

As for Dean letting Gadreel possess Sam: I don't judge Dean as harshly for that as parts of fandom do, and Sam himself ultimately admitted that he would have done the same. On the other hand, I think it very much was a violation of Sam's consent, because unlike the case of the comatose person, there actually was a way of letting Sam make the choice, rather than relying on the fact that Sam had earlier said he didn't want to die (which is different from "I don't want to die even if living requires me to be possessed by an angel"). The only reason Dean didn't give Sam the choice is because he thought Sam would probably say no, which is why he essentially tricked him into consenting to Gadreel. It also took a long time for him to even try to tell Sam what he had done -- and again, the only reason he didn't is because doing so would risk Sam withdrawing the coerced consent and dying.

The closer comparison here would be tricking a Jehovah's Witness into signing a consent form for a life-saving blood transfusion (which their religion forbids). Sure, courts have (rightly) ordered JW children to be given transfusions over their parents (and sometimes their own) objections, but adults have the right to decide, no matter how foolish you or I may find that decision. And again, I would have great sympathy for a family member who decided not to follow a loved one's wishes in this respect, even to the extent of trickery -- but that doesn't make it right.

But replies to this should probably go in the all episodes thread. 

Excellent post! I agree with pretty much all of this :) 

[bearcatfan]

@Geordiegirl1967, I wasn't talking about Adam when I said something about Ireland. It was in response to a comment about Eileen. I didn't quote it because 1) it was hidden and 2) I was on my phone and things don't work the same there as it does on my computer. Many people before have wondered how the BMoL could state they had eliminated all the monsters when Eileen's parents were killed by a banshee so I don't think I'm alone in thinking that she's from the UK.

Edited April 2, 2017 by bearcatfan

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Well, I am really late to the party this week!  Just watched the episode last night.  (No, not kidding!  Things happen. )  Standard disclaimers apply: have not read all the comments, not for use while in the bathtub, fumes may be harmful so use in a well ventilated area, etc.  

• Lots of good cute moments between Claire and the guys.  I enjoyed their interactions.  I especially liked Claire's call to Jodi at the end and when she called her 'mom'.  I liked seeing Dean being protective and the 'skeezer' remark to Sam made much more sense in context of the show than it did in the clip, so I was fine with it.  I did think the 'creeper' comment later was a little out of left field, but eh...I guess she was already feeling defensive knowing that she was lying to him about telling Jodi and lying to Jodi.  And maybe he did look a little creeper there hanging out in front of a high school.  ;)  (A cute creeper moose though, make all the girl moose go maaahhh.)
• I like that the guys seem to be wholly on the same side again.  A little tension between them at the beginning, but I think that was to be expected after last week.  But they were both immediately out when they found out Mick killed the girl in the hospital, and that was nice to see.  I was surprised that they gave the BMoL another shot at the end.  I'm assuming they talking it over privately and both agreed, cause neither one looked like he had a dissenting opinion on that.  I have to wonder why they agreed to the second chance though.  I know Sam was impressed and a little enamored of all the lore they had - and that did come in handy this week.  (And it was just like Sam to geek out over it, wasn't it?  Poor Dean having to listen to the podcast in the car.  He should have made them put in headphones.)  But I wonder if it wasn't also to keep an eye on them.  
• I liked seeing smart Dean immediately cotton on to Mick's lie about what he was doing the night before.  
• Don't know about anyone else, but I wasn't too terribly bothered by the werewolf cure.  Except that it just seemed too easy.  Not easy for Claire - just too easy to make on the spur of the moment like that.  I was anticipating a few ingredients like wolfs-bane and hair of the dog that bit you (I know they used the blood, but it would have been funny -or punny - to also need a lock of hair) and eye of newt or something else rather rare.  But...eh..I don't think it actually contradicted anything previously shown.  If it did, I don't remember it, so I guess that was okay.  
• I am rather disappointed we didn't really get a chance to see the guys relishing the upscale hotel rooms.  Sam all spread out across a king size bed.  And Dean swimming with no bathing suit.  It's not nice to tease!
• One thing about Claire I don't really understand is why she is so hellbent on hunting monsters.  Both of her parents were killed by angels.  Sure, Cas apologized, and I guess she's on okay terms with him now, but her mom was killed by a gregori.  So I could understand if she went all Lily Sunder and wanted to hunt down rogue angels (maybe without the tapping into her own soul bit).  (Actually, I think it would be kind of cool if she did concentrate on angels.) But I don't really understand how that translates to her need to hunt monsters like werewolves and vampires on her own.  I would think that Alex would be more likely to turn into the hunter given how she was used by vampires for years.  But apparently, she's majoring in nursing.  And if Alex did get into a nursing program - good on her because I understand that is not easy to do nowadays.  I guess her nursing training will also come in handy when Claire gets hurt on hunts.  :)

[DeeDee79]

Now that I've rewatched I noticed something that went over my head the first time. When Sam and Dean came back after roughing up the bartender and saw that Claire was gone Mick said they he could find her because he put a tracker in her pocket. It makes me wonder if he was lying again about not harming her and if it was because he intended to go after her to kill her if she remained a werewolf and the brothers let her go off on her own. With that scene in mind it makes me wonder why they agreed to give him a second chance.

[Casseiopeia]

On 3/31/2017 at 3:39 AM, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Hmmm. What did I think of this ep? I need a rewatch to be certain, but first impressions were meh!

This season has just been very lack lustre and not that compelling. One reason, for me at least, is the total lack of focus on the brothers and their relationship. Dabb just doesn't seem interested in writing for them. So many missed opportunities for some good emotional scenes!

But more generally something is off. It is hard to put my finger on. Ladies Drink Free wasn't a terrible episode. I like Claire. There were some amusing little touches. The guest characters were good. Mick (appallingly bad London accent aside) is becoming a rounded character who I am quite warming to. So what is missing?

Something about the pacing is off. The stories veer between meandering along with lots of talky exposition, and 'skip to the end' logic jumps that don't always make sense. Dean and Sam feel like guest stars sometimes. Not in terms of screen time, but in terms of focus and where the writing / characterisation efforts are going. This week it was Claire and Mick's turns. Most of what happened was about or instigated by them - Mick killing first girl, Claire getting bitten, Mick getting attacked by her, talking to her, restraining her. Mick saved the day in the fight with Claire with his injection of her. Sam and Dean both got their asses handed to them in that fight for...you know....reasons. Mick shot the werewolf bartended (I think?). And it was Claire and Mick who had some emotional growth; Mick in coming around to the 'not all monsters are evil' viewpoint and starting to question his masters and Claire in terms of coming clean with Jodie and acknowledging that they love her.

Yet Sam and Dean are the stars of this show. Where is the effort with them? I am certainly not asking for fake drama for its own sake eg creating conflicts between them. Its the little things. Where is the chemistry between them, the brotherly banter, the looks, the emotional beats? It feels like there is no longer beating heart at the centre of the show. 

But yeah....LDF was Ok I suppose.

SPN lost a long time editor (Nicle Baer)  and producer (Todd Arannour)  that kept the episodes flowing better.  Editing doesn't seem to be Dabb's thing.

I agree that the focus isn't on Sam and Dean at all this season.  The only episode that came close was Regarding Dean.  I know the J's aren't as available this year but it isn't like they aren't there at all.  Dabb doesn't seem to know what to do with them.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 3/30/2017 at 9:35 PM, catrox14 said:

This bugged me too. I can only attribute it to

1) Dean seeing Sam's heart breaking all over the place after he watched him kill Madison.
2) Garth being turned and living with his new wolf pack
3) They kind of lampshaded it with Dean saying 'Things are not as black and white as I used to think".

But yeah, that niggled at me too.

But also, hadn't Madison already broken out and killed someone?  I thought Mick said the cure would not work if Claire had already fed.  

On 4/1/2017 at 10:56 AM, ILoveReading said:

Also Sam isn't really in a position to judge Dean here since he lied to Dean for weeks about where he was getting cases from. 

When did Sam judge Dean in this episode?  All Sam did was back up Claire's choice to make her own decisions regarding her own life.  There was no judgement of Dean in that.

21 hours ago, Lemuria said:

So, yep, as long as they have to pull her chestnuts out of the fire on a regular basis, they get a say in what she does.  They're absolutely right, IMO, to tell her to get back to hunting with a more experienced and knowledgeable person and to learn how to actually do the job.

I respectfully disagree.  They don't have to pull her chestnuts out of the fire on a regular basis, do they?  They could let them burn.  If they decide to come to the rescue that's their choice.  And no one is making that for them.  To use your house scenario, this is like someone who builds a house on a sand bar and pays for all the foundation and retaining walls, etc out of the own pocket.  But then a hurricane comes and the government sends in the National Guard to forcibly evacuate them for their own good.  Well, the homeowner didn't ask for the taxpayer's help, did they?  They might have been prepared to ride out the storm and deal with the damage on their own.  But if the government is going to offer, they'd be a fool not to take advantage of that help.

[PAForrest]

9 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

SPN lost a long time editor (Nicle Baer)  and producer (Todd Arannour)  that kept the episodes flowing better.  Editing doesn't seem to be Dabb's thing.

I agree that the focus isn't on Sam and Dean at all this season.  The only episode that came close was Regarding Dean.  I know the J's aren't as available this year but it isn't like they aren't there at all.  Dabb doesn't seem to know what to do with them.

Yeah, this really succinctly sums up my lack of desire to give too much thought to this episode, because it's just one of many - most - that have nothing to do with the leads, and whereby the leads are clearly guest-starring, in this case, in another obvious attempt at yet another backdoor pilot.  I don't care, so I don't care. If a Claire/BMoL show is given a green light, all the luck to them - or not, I won't be watching.  And it doesn't help my attitude when Kathryn has shown up on two other series I watch playing literally the exact same character. It's almost like she's type-cast already, or maybe isn't really having to act all that much. Either way, it's not a character trope I like or care about.

Yes, the Js have cut back their time, but even when Dabb has them to use it really doesn't much seem to matter, they may as well stay home most of the time.

Jensen did a cute job with the silly phone call from Dean to Claire - probably his best scene and, again, one he ironically could have phoned in from Austin. The guys were fine when they were there, though I disagree about them being on the same page as Sam, somewhat predictably, continues to be more and more aligned with the BMoL, and Dean just seems to be along for the ride because Sam is there and he has nothing else to do?

Mick getting the kill was 100% predictable because more and more of the guest stars do now, and Dean never does anymore - it's become a drinking game meme as to how Dean specifically will not get the kill again this week, or how he'll be kept far away from the fight only to show up when it's all said and done at the end. I've even started thinking Dean should just clear out the trunk of the Impala and use it to haul Meals on Wheels or something imminently more practical since he doesn't appear to need weapons anymore.

Dabb et. al.'s relentless focus on the BMoL and Mary, being pretty much one in the same, continues to make the Winchester leads look like rubes. I found it ironic when Dean tells Mick not to tell him how to do his job, since that appears to be exactly the message coming across week after week, especially since it looks like the BMoL and their 007 lair of tricks and gadgets has become the weekly norm. I don't dislike Mick, he seems perfectly okay as far as being the latest frenemy addition to the show. But I do feel he probably has more stake in a potential spin-off than the aging mother ship.

Edited April 3, 2017 by PAForrest

[companionenvy]

4 hours ago, PAForrest said:

Sam, somewhat predictably, continues to be more and more aligned with the BMoL, and Dean just seems to be along for the ride because Sam is there and he has nothing else to do?

Other than geeking out over research and podcasts, in what way was Sam "more and more aligned with the BMoL." I mean, he literally said "we're done" after finding out that Mick killed the girl who had been turned. Then Mick seemed contrite enough that both Winchesters -- with Dean taking the lead, if anything -- decided to give Mick a second chance.

I'm also not getting the idea that the Winchesters didn't have to be there, or that the show had nothing to do with them. I mean, yes, in theory, you could have written an episode following Claire of Mick on the werewolf hunt, but a) that would have ended with Mick killing Claire, which is a very different outcome and b) that isn't actually the episode we got. I mean, Tom Stoppard wrote "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead" from the perspective of two very minor characters in Hamlet. That doesn't mean that Hamlet himself is unnecessary to the play. In theory, one can almost always warp a narrative to exclude a character, no matter how major.

I'll grant you that this scene wasn't primarily about character development for the Winchesters. But honestly, this show has gone on for 250 episodes. If every single episode had to be written to ensure that Sam or Dean got the kill and grew as characters, it would, IMO, be boring and repetitive beyond belief. 

[DittyDotDot]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Sam and Dean were needed in this episode. Not only because Claire would've been dead, but this is the episode where they actually work with the BMoL and learn something useful about them. This is important information for them going forward and, IMO, will factor heavily into the rest of the season.

[Pondlass1]

My issue is that there's little emotional pull any more. Other than Sam and Dean (Cas & Crowley) most peripheral characters are lightweight and predictable - yet it is on THEM that the ongoing story focuses.  No one is complex any more.  If Claire had died I really would not have cared.  Madison on the other hand - they made me care, I was invested and felt it.

Writers need to engage me more emotionally if they're going to focus on other characters.  But they don't seem able (or willing) to write good dialogue any more.  I don't want soap opera... but I need to get to know people if I'm supposed to care or react.

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

My issue is that there's little emotional pull any more. Other than Sam and Dean (Cas & Crowley) most peripheral characters are lightweight and predictable - yet it is on THEM that the ongoing story focuses.  No one is complex any more.  If Claire had died I really would not have cared.  Madison on the other hand - they made me care, I was invested and felt it.

Writers need to engage me more emotionally if they're going to focus on other characters.  But they don't seem able (or willing) to write good dialogue any more.  I don't want soap opera... but I need to get to know people if I'm supposed to care or react.

That's funny, I laugh my way through most of Heart. I think it's mawkish and silly for the most part. Even though I'm no Claire enthusiast,  I think the emotional beats were far more organic and realistic in this episode than they were with Madison. But, obviously, miles vary on these things.

Edited April 3, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[companionenvy]

YMMV. I agree that one of the great faults of the show over the years is that it hasn't been able to give supporting characters -- namely Cas and Crowley --plotlines interesting enough to justify the amount of time we spend on them. But I did care about Claire in this episode, which I thought also did a reasonably good job establishing Mick as someone I'm interested in watching. I don't think either could carry an extended solo plotline, but as long as Sam and Dean are integrally involved in whatever is going on, I'm fine with exploring other characters.

IMO, Sam and Dean's effect on others can be part of their story as well. If they get Mick to turn, or make Claire into a better hunter, that's important. Saving people doesn't only happen through hunting things. 

[bearcatfan]

7 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

That's funny, I laugh my way through most of Heart. I think it's mawkish and silly for the most part. Even though I'm no Claire enthusiast,  I think the emotional beats were far more organic and realistic in this episode than they were with Madison. But, obviously, miles vary on these things.

Even though I didn't laugh my way through "Heart" I cared much more about what happened to Claire, a character we've known for several seasons and who is extremely important to many other characters I care about, than Madison. That doesn't mean that I didn't care about Madison, but I only cared about her because of the effect killing her had on Sam, and the effect that had on Dean. In this episode, it was the fact that she was bitten in the first place that got to me. Sam's reaction when he found her; Dean's reaction through the whole ordeal. Knowing that Jody would be devastated and Cas would likely feel some form of guilt because she's his vessel's daughter. Claire means more to me than Madison, even if she isn't someone I want on my screen every episode.

[rue721]

I think this was a well-written episode, and I probably would have really enjoyed it -- IF I had it in me to care about Claire. But I just don't care about her. She's been around for a long while now, but she's never grown on me.

The show has really tried with Claire. She's had a pretty good character arc, and they've integrated her into the other characters' lives pretty well, too. But I dunno, I still find her so charmless.

So I just wasn't on board for her story. I think her story was good, I just didn't enjoy it because I don't enjoy her *shrug.*

[MysteryGuest]

My only complaint about the Claire storyline is that I wish she had decided in the end to go back to Jody's, acknowledging that she has a lot more to learn about hunting.  She was pretty obnoxious in the beginning of the episode, but that was intentional.  I get that we were supposed to see her growth by the end of the hour, and I do think it was there, but then she still opted to continue hunting on her own.  I was disappointed in that.  She absolutely needs more experience and training.  We really haven't seen anything from her that indicates she should be out there on her own.

[catrox14]

Upon re-watch, I think I'm taking back some of my squee over Dean being Dean throughout. The episode is rather contrived in order amp up the DRAMA over WILL CLAIRE BE CURED and it's at the expense of Dean and Sam.

--There is no logical reason within the episode to have Dean namedrop Garth without later telling Claire she could go live with him and learn to deal with being a werewolf. That's a pretty important reference, IMO. If it was written and filmed, why delete it? Assuming it was never written into the episode, then IMO the only reason, is to set up a Garth reveal later. I'm saying it's 'Chekhov's Garth' and will show up again two episodes from now. Or it's a newbie writer, being a noob.

--IMO, Dean would have put a much bigger fight about Claire. IMO the main reason he said 'You don't get a vote" is that Claire was not entirely in her right mind given she was already starting to turn. BUT even more than the fever, and panic setting in, she said something really pretty dark, that I wish the show would have had Dean really delve into.  The bolded section:

Quote

Claire: How long have I got until

Sam: Sometimes it takes a full moon. Sometimes it just takes time.
Claire[ Inhales shakily ] [ Sniffles ]
Dean: Hey.  Hey, listen to me.
Look, nobody said this was gonna be easy, okay? But you can live with this.
Claire: No way.
Dean: Hey.
Look, so you -- you have to stay locked up a few nights out of the month, okay? The rest of the time, you're you.
Dean: [ Whispers ] Unless I break out.
Maybe some people can control this, but I can barely keep it together on a good day.
[ Voice breaking ] So if there's any chance I could hurt Jody or Alex [ Inhales deeply ] or anyone [ Breathes shakily ] I'd rather die.
 

 

This is the moment of the show where it all went PLOT PLOT PLOT when it should have been character, character, character.

Claire is stubborn and makes poor decisions, but IMO she isn't actually a dumb bunny. And the above information tells me she's got issues much deeper than typical teen angst.  She told Sam it was better if she was on her own, that it made everyone happier and then later, to both of them that she can barely hold it together on a regular day, and she doesn't trust herself.  IMO at that point Dean would have said, "Claire, that's not true. Look at everything you've been through!" and given her examples of how she can trust herself and when she would need help.  IMO, Sam would have said SOMETHING to try to convince her.

Dean has given pep talks, so to speak, to teenagers he met like ONCE whereas Claire is family. Not only is she family and important to Jody and Alex, Dean made  a promise to Cas to look out for her.  IMO, that's even MORE reason for him to put up a bigger fight about her not taking the cure.  Dean might not do for himself all the time, but he'll go to the mat to keep a promise and save a loved ones' loved one. And IMO, this was not going to the mat for ....PLOT REASONS.

I know there will be the argument that there was "not enough time"  but the moon hadn't risen yet. And there is even more time IF they taken Claire with them when they went to find the sire, they could have told her then about the Garth option. The sire would have tracked her down anyway. Wouldn't she have been better to be with the two people she trusted to help her as her symptoms progressed? I mean seriously

I stand by this not being about Dean learning any lesson. IMO, it's only seen that way because Sam said "It's her life" and Dean acquiesced. I think cure was too easy, and Claire driving off on her own, IMO will lead to something bad for her. I'm waiting for the cure to end up wearing off.  I don't trust Mick at all still. 

This is one of the few times when, IMO a couple of re-watches did not improve the episode and did the opposite. I like it less now. The only reason it wasn't completely bad IMO is that Dean seemed to be back into badass! not fucking around Dean. 

 

[mommo]

Hey all, I just drifted over here after the IMDB boards closed, looking for obsessed fans like me.  I've been reading awhile, but only signed up today when I realized what I'm missing this season:  music.  Where is the classic rock that has helped make this show so special for 12 seasons?  I didn't care for the music in this episode at all, or the previous 3 episodes for that matter.  Is it just me, am I missing something? Besides Cas? :)

[catrox14]

33 minutes ago, mommo said:

Hey all, I just drifted over here after the IMDB boards closed, looking for obsessed fans like me.  I've been reading awhile, but only signed up today when I realized what I'm missing this season:  music.  Where is the classic rock that has helped make this show so special for 12 seasons?  I didn't care for the music in this episode at all, or the previous 3 episodes for that matter.  Is it just me, am I missing something? Besides Cas? :)

Welcome!

I'm not sure about the classic rock. I think this season it's been drifting from super classic like The Rolling Stones to a little more current.

[MysteryGuest]

38 minutes ago, mommo said:

Hey all, I just drifted over here after the IMDB boards closed, looking for obsessed fans like me.  I've been reading awhile, but only signed up today when I realized what I'm missing this season:  music.  Where is the classic rock that has helped make this show so special for 12 seasons?  I didn't care for the music in this episode at all, or the previous 3 episodes for that matter.  Is it just me, am I missing something? Besides Cas? :)

Welcome to the board, Mommo!  Yeah, the music has been less than epic this season.  

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Claire is stubborn and makes poor decisions, but IMO she isn't actually a dumb bunny. And the above information tells me she's got issues much deeper than typical teen angst.  She told Sam it was better if she was on her own, that it made everyone happier and then later, to both of them that she can barely hold it together on a regular day, and she doesn't trust herself.  IMO at that point Dean would have said, "Claire, that's not true. Look at everything you've been through!" and given her examples of how she can trust herself and when she would need help.  IMO, Sam would have said SOMETHING to try to convince her.

Dean has given pep talks, so to speak, to teenagers he met like ONCE whereas Claire is family. Not only is she family and important to Jody and Alex, Dean made  a promise to Cas to look out for her.  IMO, that's even MORE reason for him to put up a bigger fight about her not taking the cure.  Dean might not do for himself all the time, but he'll go to the mat to keep a promise and save a loved ones' loved one. And IMO, this was not going to the mat for ....PLOT REASONS.

But this is what's been missing the entire season.  These writers simply aren't giving us the big, emotional scenes. I'm not convinced they're capable of writing them.  That's why the return of Mary has turned into a big nothing burger.  They haven't shown us any of the emotional connections between the characters.   

[ILoveReading]

Finally fast forwarded through most of this.  Have to admit Glynn disappointed me.  Another promising ep ruined in the last 10 minutes. 

I'm not sure whats worse. Dean wondering around the corn-field and not being included or being in the action of being in the action and written just as ineffective.  Dean should be able to handle a werewolf.  I know they needed him alive, but the brothers should be able to handle one werewolf.  

I did not like Dean givng Mick another chance.  Why isn't he more suspicious of him?  I hope we get a throw away line that Dean checked up on Claire because how do we know that Mick didn't give Ketch an order to take her out?  Or that cure even worked? 

Why is no one questioning that the Brits seem to be conducting experiments on monsters?  Doesn't that make them no better than Crowley?

Jensen did a nice job conveying Dean's discomfort with working for the Brits.  (If the brothers aren't looking for their own cases, and standing around waiting to be handed them and taking everything given to them at face value than IMO, they are very much working for them, not with them.) but in the end, he caved far too quickly again.

I didn't believe Sam when he said he was done.  I think all the shiny toys, lore book, and hunter hogwarts are too big of an appeal to him.  You can see his enthusiasm at working for these guys to the point that i dont' think the death of a werewolf would have been enough to permanently deter Sam.  If not for Claire I believe he would have found another reason to give Mick another chance.

It was nice to see that Dean was on to Mick the whole time, but again it was ruined in the end.  Plus, I don't think Dean being written as smart and capable (although capable these days is debatable) is something that should a reason to get excited because it should be automatic.   And not something that pops up now and again.   Smart and/or capable Dean seems to be rare these days. 

Another episode that won't make my rewatch list.  

Edited April 4, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Katy M]

47 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean should be able to handle a werewolf. 

This is kind of where I disagree.  No, he shouldn't.  A werewolf should be tougher and stronger than Sam or Dean.  They shouldn't be able to take out entire nests of vampires and werewolves single-handedly.  And the episodes where they struggle are the ones I enjoy more and find more "realistic."

[companionenvy]

Just a request/reminder: if your post is almost entirely devoted to discussion of how the writers didn't give Dean enough to do or represent him fairly, there's a thread for that now. 

And there is really nothing on screen to indicate Sam isn't seriously angry about Mick killing the werewolf. Nothing. He's enthusiastic about the BMOL's shiny toys. Dean is into the cushy hotel room. Both of them put that aside when they realize Mick has killed an innocent, werewolf or not. 

[catrox14]

43 minutes ago, Katy M said:

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

 

This is kind of where I disagree.  No, he shouldn't.  A werewolf should be tougher and stronger than Sam or Dean.  They shouldn't be able to take out entire nests of vampires and werewolves single-handedly.  And the episodes where they struggle are the ones I enjoy more and find more "realistic."

Sam was literally shot in the gut, almost died, and still fought off 2 or 3 werewolves ,walked a mile to Deans car, drive however far to the hospital and shot the other werewolf in the back in Red Meat. The show set a ridiculously stupid new precedent with that episode and now if the boys together cant handle one werewolf, it does make them look weak.

[catrox14]

37 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

And there is really nothing on screen to indicate Sam isn't seriously angry about Mick killing the werewolf. Nothing'

Quote

Mick: Look, I understand you're angry --

Sam:  Mick, you killed a kid.
We're not angry.
We're done!

Supernatural Episode Scripts   |   More Television Show Episode Scripts .

 Sam literally says he's not angry. He should not have spoken for Dean, because Dean clearly is angry with Mick.   but Sam himself said on  screen that he wasnt angry. So either Sam was   lying to Mick, being disenguious or he really wasnt angry.

[SueB]

23 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Just a request/reminder: if your post is almost entirely devoted to discussion of how the writers didn't give Dean enough to do or represent him fairly, there's a thread for that now. 

And there is really nothing on screen to indicate Sam isn't seriously angry about Mick killing the werewolf. Nothing. He's enthusiastic about the BMOL's shiny toys. Dean is into the cushy hotel room. Both of them put that aside when they realize Mick has killed an innocent, werewolf or not. 

Amen. 

I'd say 'that's his series face'  (say it with a Cas voice).

While I personally don't understand the value of a cathartic dump on an episode based on perceived writer bias, it really drags the forum into negativity and we've lost members because of it.  Since we've created a thread just for this, I appreciate the request to move the writer-bias negativity there.  

No one expects everyone to like an episode, was this episode TRULY worth as much negativity or has it become a habit?  

[SueB]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

 Sam literally says he's not angry. He should not have spoken for Dean, because Dean clearly is angry with Mick.   but Sam himself said on  screen that he wasnt angry. So either Sam was   lying to Mick, being disenguious or he really wasnt angry.

I think Sam was unambiguously angry but he was saying it's MORE than just an emotional response -- Mick crosses a line.  Mick was trying to dismiss their reaction as "anger", as just an emotional response that they would rethink later.  Sam was saying this was "nope". We're done. And they made it clear it was a second chance ONLY because he was useful in saving Claire and he had several moments where he could have killed Claire and justified it.  Mick put himself physically at risk multiple times to save Claire rather than follow the BMoL code.  THAT's, IMO, why they gave him a second chance.  And I would speculate that it's more likely Dean, vice Sam, who said let's give him a second chance.  Sam knew he pushed Dean and Mick lived up to Dean's biggest issues.  But Dean is the one who developed an understanding with Mick.  Specifically "cross us and die."  Dean made that completely clear and Mick completely understood that.  But Mick acted did more than just take actions to avoid Dean killing him.  He actually helped.

Finally, while I appreciate "Red Meat" showed perhaps an over-capable Sam. I think this episode showed a more realistic werewolf confrontation with the additional inhibition of 'don't kill them'.   

[DittyDotDot]

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam literally says he's not angry. He should not have spoken for Dean, because Dean clearly is angry with Mick.   but Sam himself said on  screen that he wasnt angry. So either Sam was   lying to Mick, being disenguious or he really wasnt angry.

To me Sam was saying we're not just angry, we're more than angry. 

ETA: This had me thinking of Lassiter's quote about Juliet needing to get uppercase mad on an episode of Psych. ;)

Edited April 4, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

To me Sam was saying we're not just angry, we're more than angry. 

 

I do think it's curious that in a season wherein Sam has been playing the middle at best and outright deceiving/lying to Dean, that this line is one that is being interpreted by me as Sam basically being honest but others interpret it as Sam was so angry that he was icing Mick out now . Yet by the end he's giving them another chance.

I guess that really is the  norm with this show in that the writing and characters and viewer interpretation are often contradictory.

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I do think it's curious that in a season wherein Sam has been playing the middle at best and outright deceiving/lying to Dean, that this line is one that is being interpreted by me as Sam basically being honest but others interpret it as Sam was so angry that he was icing Mick out now . Yet by the end he's giving them another chance.

I guess that really is the  norm with this show in that the writing and characters and viewer interpretation are often contradictory.

I think THEY gave Mick another chance because he helped with Claire and in the end seemed to see their point of view. Basically, they felt like he earned another chance, but, like Dean said, there won't be a third.

If it had been Ketch, I doubt it would've played out the same way. Ketch doesn't seem to be "teachable" like Mick. 

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, SueB said:

Finally, while I appreciate "Red Meat" showed perhaps an over-capable Sam. I think this episode showed a more realistic werewolf confrontation with the additional inhibition of 'don't kill them'.   

Episodes don't live in  a vacuum from the rest of the show(sadly not even bloodlines).

It's just like bringing in God and his Sister. Its almost impossible to roll back when it's that big. They shouldn't expect the entire audience would forget precedences like that and Red Meat.If they put in a retcon about Sam being overly capable in Red meat because Billie saved him and gave him a booster shot of super strength that would have helped with this episode but they didn't.

[rue721]

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

I do think it's curious that in a season wherein Sam has been playing the middle at best and outright deceiving/lying to Dean, that this line is one that is being interpreted by me as Sam basically being honest but others interpret it as Sam was so angry that he was icing Mick out now . Yet by the end he's giving them another chance.

I guess that really is the  norm with this show in that the writing and characters and viewer interpretation are often contradictory.

I think he was being honest.

He wasn't icing out Mick because he was angry. He was icing out Mick because they don't kill innocents.

ETA:  except for Gavin ;)

Edited April 4, 2017 by rue721

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think he was being honest.

He wasn't icing out Mick because he was angry. He was icing out Mick because they don't kill innocents.

ETA:  except for Gavin ;)

Dang. LOL. I think the argument on that is that is was Gavin's decision to go.

[DittyDotDot]

And, they didn't kill Gavin. They sent him back to his own time period where he presumably died, but they didn't actually kill him. Gavin killed himself.

[catrox14]

44 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think THEY gave Mick another chance because he helped with Claire and in the end seemed to see their point of view. Basically, they felt like he earned another chance, but, like Dean said, there won't be a third.

I understood that's why they gave him another chance.

The original reason for my reply was that another commenter had said there was no evidence on screen to suggest that Sam was not seriously angry.  I was pointing out that in Sam's own words he said he was not.

It's up to the audience to decide if that was true or it wasn't.

I think Sam does not get particularly 'ragey' (for lack of a better word) these days. I certainly think he does feel anger, etc, but IMO he doesn't seem to spend a lot of time and energy on those emotions. Before my words get twisted into something I'm not saying, I AM NOT saying Sam is a cold fish who is unfeeling, uncaring or unloving. Maybe he's trying to be more Zen or whatever now about his emotions etc. On the other hand maybe he's repressing his anger so deeply that he's going to blow and go postal on everyone one day (I really don't think that is true) 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

The original reason for my reply was that another commenter had said there was no evidence on screen to suggest that Sam was not seriously angry.  I was pointing out that in Sam's own words he said he was not.

It's up to the audience to decide if that was true or it wasn't.

I think Mick got off easy even before the Claire situation. Yes, he got a few harsh words but he still got to be present in the following scene with Claire in the motel room. Why did they let him in ? That`s the opposite of being done. And while Dean will still angry in this scene as per the dialogue, I don`t think Sam particularly was. I`ve seen the character angry, this wasn`t even an "eh".

In general, Sam hasn`t been really angry in ages. There was a hot minute in the psychic ep but other than that, I can`t remember anything. I think the writers believe any passionate displays of feeling always show immaturity and being insensitive etc. And the way to go is always being relatively zen with everything ever. That`s why Dean even having normal reactions sticks out as faux-negative when it wouldn`t on most shows because most shows thrive of characters having passionate displays of feelings so noone bats an eye at it.     

The episode could have still used the ploy of Mick being helpful to Claire and risking his life if they had tweaked the stuff after the "you killed an innocent girl, we are done" scene. Mick was clearly already in a crisis, he could have come up with the idea of the cure as a peace offering or something. But since he was already on the debate team right after, I got the impression bygones were bygones already. 

[rue721]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

there was no evidence on screen to suggest that Sam was not seriously angry.  I was pointing out that in Sam's own words he said he was not.

I mean, I think he actually was upset (IMO he seemed like it), but I don't think that was his reason for icing out Mick. It wasn't an emotional decision that was just going to blow over. He thought what Mick did was wrong. He had a moral/philosophical problem with it.

Interesting to think that Sam has been so low key for a while now. I think so, too. He was breaking my heart earlier in the season, though. Maybe he's meant to be internalizing things more nowadays?

34 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

And, they didn't kill Gavin. They sent him back to his own time period where he presumably died, but they didn't actually kill him. Gavin killed himself.

I mean OK, they just encouraged him to sacrifice his life, rather than actively killed him dead. Feel like that's an "I say tomato, you saw tomawwwwwto" kind of thing. YMMV.

I wonder how Crowley is going to make them pay for that...but knowing this show, his revenge is going to take forever to happen, if it happens at all.

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I wonder how Crowley is going to make them pay for that...but knowing this show, his revenge is going to take forever to happen, if it happens at all.

Crowley was the one that didn't fulfill his promise to send Gavin back to his own time in the first place.  If Crowley had put Gavin back, he would have been on the boat with ghost!GF. She isn't raped and doesn't become a vengeful spirit, they both die on the boat when it sinks. Rowena figured out how to actually make it happen and she's the one who  interfered when Crowley was going to zap Gavin away.  Crowley will take the pound of flesh from Rowena not the boys.

Edited April 4, 2017 by catrox14

[rue721]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think Crowley go after them at all for that, given that he was the one that didn't fulfill his promise to send Gavin back to his own time in the first place. If Crowley had put Gavin back he would have been on the boat with ghost!GF  and she doesn't become an vengeful spirit. Crowley's beef is with Rowena who figured out how to actually make it happen and she's the one who  interfered when Crowley was going to zap him away.  Crowley will take the pound of flesh from Rowena.

Naw but Rowena was just being Rowena. Can't expect better from her. That's Crowley's own fault for being lulled by her. It's a situation of, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice..."

It was the Winchesters who "exploited" Gavin's noble nature and encouraged him to sacrifice his life. They're "the good guys," so Crowley had reason to trust them to try and save his son. (ETA:  this is what I think Crowley's POV is, not my personal POV. Well, kinda sorta my personal POV, too :P).

So I think Crowley would see their "betrayal" as more serious or meaningful. Rowena's betrayal is just ~family stuff.~ Their betrayal is an actual betrayal-capital-B. ETA:  he expected better from them.

If I were Crowley, I would pull a Rowena and play the long game, by getting myself into a position of trust with the Winchesters, making myself essential to them -- just so that I could leave them high and dry at the worst possible moment. That's what I THINK he's doing? But he could also lose his nerve and never actually pull the trigger on betraying them, I dunno. I do think he loves them in his horrible, demon-y way.

Edited April 4, 2017 by rue721