S12.E16: Ladies Drink Free

[Katy M]

Seriously, I'm sorry, but I literally couldn't care less that they didn't mention Cas.  Like you said, they don't know he's in Heaven. They think he's looking for Kelly.  While Claire has forgiven him, I still don't think she likes to be around him.  I realize that's my opinion. And, would they really want an angel around a BMOL who thinks everything supernatural has to go no matter what?  Probably not.  Could they have discussed any or all of that stuff on screen?  Sure.  Was it necessary.  No, IMO.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

Maybe it doesn't have to. It just seems so coincidental to me. Like, Claire decides she has a new mother. There are these other mothers showing up out of the blue and coming into play. I guess my main question is, how do those storylines intersect?

I get where you're coming from. Given the narrative resurrected a mom that has been dead for 30 years and Mary and Jody discussed motherhood re the boys, it makes sense to me to see where there would be an intersection at some point with Claire and Mary. I wouldn't be surprised if Mick himself didn't try to use Mary to recruit Claire. He may think since he saved Claire's life that she might be more malleable to their spiel.

[Ninamags]

Ugh, and that whiny, horrible little brat is still alive.  Why?? 

Loved that Dean was able to enjoy the hotel stay. "baby shampoo" indeed. Loved how Fleetwood Mac got a shout-out.  Aren't McVie  and Buckingham going out on tour? 

The Brit MoL suck as field agents. 

I hate werewolves. I hated "Heart" as well. Saw some of it this morning, too. 

[Commando Cody]

This episode reminded me of a Family Guy episode. Peter looks at the camera and says "That's right folks. It's gonna be a Meg episode. Stick around for the fun. Here's the clicker. No one'd blame ya."

Claire has to be one of the poorest written characters on this show. They continually write her as stupid and she's not convincing.  I knew going into this episode knowing she would live. They should have killed off the character. I had some thoughts that if they turned her and she couldn't be cured, they would send her to live with Garth.  

I don't think of Claire and Cas. I had no thoughts that they should call Cas. She lives with Jodi and Alex. That's her family. Now Claire has something else in common with Alex.  They were both monsters who were turned back in the early stages. 

I liked the rest of this episode. I knew Mick was going to kill the girl.  Dean warming up to the BMoL over the hotel and having no problem swimming without a suit. They did give Mick a lot of information - even giving out Garth's name. I wonder if Garth is going to make another appearance - like they will have to save the pack from Mr. Ketch. 

[Mick Lady]

I'm a bit worried that Sam and Dean mentioned Garth in front of Mick. I can see him going back to the BMoL and telling them about Garth's pack, and end up hunting them. I love Garth!  #BovinesUnite!

[rue721]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I get where you're coming from. Given the narrative resurrected a mom that has been dead for 30 years and Mary and Jody discussed motherhood re the boys, it makes sense to me to see where there would be an intersection at some point with Claire and Mary. I wouldn't be surprised if Mick himself didn't try to use Mary to recruit Claire. He may think since he saved Claire's life that she might be more malleable to their spiel.

I'm thinking more in terms of the themes of the season, not so much using Mary to recruit Claire.

They just keep coming out with yet more long-lost mothers, surrogate mothers, mothers-to-be, etc, and I wonder where all this is going.

IMO it was interesting that they had Mary come back and not actually be able to reprise her role as Sam and Dean's mother. It seemed like it was too late for them to have a mother, they lost their shot when Mary died. And meanwhile, even though Rowena might literally be the worst mother in history, and she and Crowley are hundreds of years old, their bond apparently can't QUITE break. I mean, they can hate each other, but they can't unmake that bond (if bond is the right word for that. Trap? lol). They're stuck with what they've got, too. They also don't get a second chance.

But now it turns out that Claire actually was able to create a new family, and even adopt a new mother *as an adult.* (She's young, but she IS grown. Sam and Dean were treating her as a (young) adult, too, by respecting her autonomy). She does get a second chance. How does that change Sam and Dean's story (or their story's possibilities) wrt Mary?

Maybe it doesn't change anything, but to me, it doesn't seem coincidental that these were the emotional beats the show wanted to hit

[Mick Lady]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I'm thinking more in terms of the themes of the season, not so much using Mary to recruit Claire.

They just keep coming out with yet more long-lost mothers, surrogate mothers, mothers-to-be, etc, and I wonder where all this is going.

IMO it was interesting that they had Mary come back and not actually be able to reprise her role as Sam and Dean's mother. It seemed like it was too late for them to have a mother, they lost their shot when Mary died. And meanwhile, even though Rowena might literally be the worst mother in history, and she and Crowley are hundreds of years old, their bond apparently can't QUITE break. I mean, they can hate each other, but they can't unmake that bond (if bond is the right word for that. Trap? lol). They're stuck with what they've got, too. They also don't get a second chance.

But now it turns out that Claire actually was able to create a new family, and even adopt a new mother *as an adult.* (She's young, but she IS grown. Sam and Dean were treating her as a (young) adult, too, by respecting her autonomy). She does get a second chance. How does that change Sam and Dean's story (or their story's possibilities) wrt Mary?

Maybe it doesn't change anything, but to me, it doesn't seem coincidental that these were the emotional beats the show wanted to hit

Great post Rue! Mick and I were talking about the whole "Mother" theme during the whole episode. We're both interested where this leads the show.

[auntvi]

As Claire drove off into the sunset I realized that I actually enjoyed her this ep. ;) But not so much that I'd watch a Wayward Daughters spin off.

The episode told ONE story and wasn't taking time/story away from Sam & Dean. The BMOL story was there, but it was integral to the werewolf story. No shifting back and forth between separate story lines. YAY!

Another UO: I didn't miss Cass, Crowley, Rowena and definitely didn't miss Lucifer. I'm looking forward to watch again - tomorrow.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Seriously, I'm sorry, but I literally couldn't care less that they didn't mention Cas.  Like you said, they don't know he's in Heaven. They think he's looking for Kelly.  While Claire has forgiven him, I still don't think she likes to be around him.  I realize that's my opinion. And, would they really want an angel around a BMOL who thinks everything supernatural has to go no matter what?  Probably not.  Could they have discussed any or all of that stuff on screen?  Sure.  Was it necessary.  No, IMO.

Dean expressed concern over Cas' tone when he said to Sam "Did he sound weird to you?' when Cas hung up the phone before he went to Heaven with Kelvin. And IN SHOW, it's a pretty big deal for Cas to return to Heaven and not tell the boys. So that warranted a mention in and off itself from a show perspective.

Aside from that, Cas has been shown to be in regular, frequent contact with Dean, pretty much all season, via phone calls, text and even bunker visits. I think the bunker is home for Cas now, given Dean said 'Let's go home' to Cas' face at the end of Stuck in the Middle after Cas almost died. 

As to having a supernatural angel around, the BMoL have already spent some time around Cas when they showed up to help them in LOTUS.

Look, I understand not every viewer cares about Castiel and some even would be happy for him to be killed off, but in the SHOW the Winchesters DO care about and love Cas. It takes ONE line of dialogue for Dean to say "Cas is gonna be pissed about this, but we have to tell him anyway".  "Okay, we'll tell him when we get back to the bunker" .

21 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I'm thinking more in terms of the themes of the season, not so much using Mary to recruit Claire.

They just keep coming out with yet more long-lost mothers, surrogate mothers, mothers-to-be, etc, and I wonder where all this is going.

I understood what you meant and I was concurring with you. Just offering a suggestion as to how that intersection between Mary and Claire might happen.

[Wayward Son]

My theory Glynn = the new Adam Glass i.e doesn't write Castiel and now it has extended to acting like he doesn't exist during their episodes. 

Spoiler

And I don't count 12x19 because that was originally Berens episode she was asked to assist on.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

My theory Glynn = the new Adam Glass i.e doesn't write Castiel and acts like he doesn't exist during their episodes. 

She wrote the Hitler episode in which he wasn't mentioned but she also wrote "Regarding Dean" and Cas was mentioned a few times. When Sam said he'd let Cas know to contact him in case of emergency. Dean said 'Don't go calling Mom or Cas". The dialogue for the mirror scene in which Dean says "My name is Dean Winchester. My brother is Sam. My mother is Mary Winchester and Cast...Cas is my best friend" .

So it's hard for me to reconcile that she doesn't think Cas exists in general.

[catrox14]

One other thing, I didn't understand.

When Claire was first accosted why didn't she just run back to where Sam was? Instead she decides to get into a knife fight?

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Mick Lady said:

I'm a bit worried that Sam and Dean mentioned Garth in front of Mick. I can see him going back to the BMoL and telling them about Garth's pack, and end up hunting them. I love Garth!  #BovinesUnite!

Yes, that was the first thing I thought of when Dean mentioned Garth's name. I was expecting Sam to give Dean a look after that. Sam seemed to be being purposefully vague with his "we have a friend," but Dean just blurts out Garth's name.

But I was watching this episode piecemeal, since I had things I had to do while watching, so maybe on rewatch it won't bug me as much.

[Jediknight]

3 hours ago, Lemuria said:

I think she could be more of a target because she showed that their cure could work on a human.  They might want to capture and study her.  (If it gets her off my screen, I'm OK with that.  No lesson learned the hard way ever takes with her for more than an hour, apparently.)

If that were to happen, Dean, Sam, Cas, Jodi, and Alex would enlist the help of the Twins from the Asa Fox episode, Rowena, and Crowley, and burn the British Men of Letters to the ground.

3 hours ago, rue721 said:

On the other hand, I think Mick is being pretty much genuine. I actually liked him pretty well in this episode.

Yeah, Mick is being genuine.  Killing Hayden shook him.  It was one thing for him to learn about everything and think he could kill a werewolf with no problem, but he was faced with a high school girl who had just been attacked.  He was faced with an innocent person, and had to kill her, that shook him.  After that Dean told him about Magda which I'd imagine Mick didn't know about the abuse and torture Magda had faced, and Dean mentioned Hayden's mother now had to bury 2 children.  Everything Mick had learned now had a human face.  I think he is genuine and realizes the British Men of Letters aren't doing good work, they've gotten rid of the monsters, but it's came at a massive cost.

[Casseiopeia]

The only thing I took away from this episode is that there might be were-mice running around and Dean was swimming without swim trunks.  Why didn't we get to see that?

[Wayward Son]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

She wrote the Hitler episode in which he wasn't mentioned but she also wrote "Regarding Dean" and Cas was mentioned a few times. When Sam said he'd let Cas know to contact him in case of emergency. Dean said 'Don't go calling Mom or Cas". The dialogue for the mirror scene in which Dean says "My name is Dean Winchester. My brother is Sam. My mother is Mary Winchester and Cast...Cas is my best friend" .

So it's hard for me to reconcile that she doesn't think Cas exists in general.

I responded in the writers thread :)

[Geordiegirl1967]

Hmmm. What did I think of this ep? I need a rewatch to be certain, but first impressions were meh!

This season has just been very lack lustre and not that compelling. One reason, for me at least, is the total lack of focus on the brothers and their relationship. Dabb just doesn't seem interested in writing for them. So many missed opportunities for some good emotional scenes!

But more generally something is off. It is hard to put my finger on. Ladies Drink Free wasn't a terrible episode. I like Claire. There were some amusing little touches. The guest characters were good. Mick (appallingly bad London accent aside) is becoming a rounded character who I am quite warming to. So what is missing?

Something about the pacing is off. The stories veer between meandering along with lots of talky exposition, and 'skip to the end' logic jumps that don't always make sense. Dean and Sam feel like guest stars sometimes. Not in terms of screen time, but in terms of focus and where the writing / characterisation efforts are going. This week it was Claire and Mick's turns. Most of what happened was about or instigated by them - Mick killing first girl, Claire getting bitten, Mick getting attacked by her, talking to her, restraining her. Mick saved the day in the fight with Claire with his injection of her. Sam and Dean both got their asses handed to them in that fight for...you know....reasons. Mick shot the werewolf bartended (I think?). And it was Claire and Mick who had some emotional growth; Mick in coming around to the 'not all monsters are evil' viewpoint and starting to question his masters and Claire in terms of coming clean with Jodie and acknowledging that they love her.

Yet Sam and Dean are the stars of this show. Where is the effort with them? I am certainly not asking for fake drama for its own sake eg creating conflicts between them. Its the little things. Where is the chemistry between them, the brotherly banter, the looks, the emotional beats? It feels like there is no longer beating heart at the centre of the show. 

But yeah....LDF was Ok I suppose.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Geordiegirl1967

[Katy M]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Look, I understand not every viewer cares about Castiel and some even would be happy for him to be killed off, but in the SHOW the Winchesters DO care about and love Cas. It takes ONE line of dialogue for Dean to say "Cas is gonna be pissed about this, but we have to tell him anyway".  "Okay, we'll tell him when we get back to the bunker" .

my feelings on this have nothing to do with whether or not I like Cas.  I actually like Cas as a character.  My problems with him are that his angel powers change every week, sometimes he can heal, sometimes he can't.  Soemtimes he can bring people back from the dead, sometimes he can't.  And, he makes life too easy.  Except when he doesn't, then you have to ask why didn't he do x.  But, I've stated my reasoning for thinking it wasn't important that he was called, and apparently I don't see the Cas/Claire relationship the same way you do.  Presumably she has Cas's number, but last year when she was hunting vamps, she called Dean, not Cas.  That says something to me.

[mertensia]

Okay, I grew up in Madison. You know what we don't have there? Mountains. We had a little thing called glaciers that ground everything down. That last scene with Claire driving off had me laughing. Jerry Wanek must've died inside.

The evolution of Mick is interesting and he is clearly just realizing that Sam and Dean are massively underrated by the BMoL. Also that it's not so easy watching a teenage girl die.

[Geordiegirl1967]

10 hours ago, Katy M said:

You can have more than one mother figure in your life.  Her mom left when she was like 11 and then when they found her she died.  Jodie really filled a need and I don't find it history bashing, or disrespectful to Amelia for Claire to call Jodie her mother.

I totally agree. This was one of the best scenes in the ep for me. I do think that Claire going hunting alone is stupid and reckless and that she will probably get killed, but she is an adult now and it has to be her decision.

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

HIM NOT CALLING CAS about Claire. Did he text him? What the hell? Not even a mention of Cas? I don't get it.

I didn't find this odd at all. Claire has a much stronger relationship with Sam and Dean than with Cas who brings up all sorts of confusing feelings for her (not least that Cas effectively killed her dad yet walks around in his body). Her parental figure is now Jodie and S&D are her hunter mentors / older brothers ish (bit of a stretch but they care about her and vice versa). I don't know particularly why Cas would need to know. When Claire and Alex were in danger in the ep where Alex's past life caught up with her (can't recall ep name) they didn't call Cas either.

Also this links to the points made earlier by @Katy M about Cas's ever changing powers.

Quote

my feelings on this have nothing to do with whether or not I like Cas.  I actually like Cas as a character.  My problems with him are that his angel powers change every week, sometimes he can heal, sometimes he can't.  Soemtimes he can bring people back from the dead, sometimes he can't.  And, he makes life too easy.  Except when he doesn't, then you have to ask why didn't he do x.  But, I've stated my reasoning for thinking it wasn't important that he was called, and apparently I don't see the Cas/Claire relationship the same way you do.  Presumably she has Cas's number, but last year when she was hunting vamps, she called Dean, not Cas.  That says something to me.

I agree. If he'd been there he could have cured Claire and the first girl? Or could he? They make his powers as weak or as strong or as inconsistent as they need them to be for the story. It doesn't work. I like Cas too, but they long ago ran out of ideas of what to do with him and even with the least of his powers he still sucks the drama out of most stories (He can resurrect the dead! That pretty much extracts all risk of peril from any situation).

25 minutes ago, mertensia said:

Okay, I grew up in Madison. You know what we don't have there? Mountains. We had a little thing called glaciers that ground everything down. That last scene with Claire driving off had me laughing. Jerry Wanek must've died inside.

The other thing that really made me laugh was that it was snowing at the beginning and, apparently, mid summer glorious sunshine by the end.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Geordiegirl1967

[mertensia]

Eh, that can happen in the spring in the Midwest. Snow one day and the next it's 55 out and people are wearing shorts. 

[SueB]

6 hours ago, Jediknight said:

If that were to happen, Dean, Sam, Cas, Jodi, and Alex would enlist the help of the Twins from the Asa Fox episode, Rowena, and Crowley, and burn the British Men of Letters to the ground.

Yeah, Mick is being genuine.  Killing Hayden shook him.  It was one thing for him to learn about everything and think he could kill a werewolf with no problem, but he was faced with a high school girl who had just been attacked.  He was faced with an innocent person, and had to kill her, that shook him.  After that Dean told him about Magda which I'd imagine Mick didn't know about the abuse and torture Magda had faced, and Dean mentioned Hayden's mother now had to bury 2 children.  Everything Mick had learned now had a human face.  I think he is genuine and realizes the British Men of Letters aren't doing good work, they've gotten rid of the monsters, but it's came at a massive cost.

Bingo.  That's why they talked about him being a "lycanthropy" expert.  In books.  He's Wesley Price (ala Buffy).  Less buffoon but able to learn and adapt. Honestly, I thought Adam Fergus did a good job of showing someone out of their league watching the code that was the foundation of his training start to crumble.  He's in a bit of crisis.  But seeing Claire walk away as a miracle.  That did a LOT for Mick.  He has two faces now etched in his mind - the dead Hayden when her eyes turned back to normal and the smiling Claire when she drove away.  It was also no coincidence that he heard the screams of horror of Hayden's mom as he left the hospital.  I think it was subtly done. 

If the Winchesters are going to defeat the BMoL committing genocide, they are going to have to win the hearts and minds of the BMoL people.  Psychopath Ketch is too far gone.  Black-suited minions aren't paid to think.  But Mick is at the right level to be both influenced and influence others.  

[Katy M]

12 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

The other thing that really made me laugh was that it was snowing at the beginning and, apparently, mid summer glorious sunshine by the end.

Today through tomorrow we're supposed to get 11 to 16 inches of snow and on Sunday in the 50s and sunshine.

 

14 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

(He can resurrect the dead! That pretty much extracts all risk of peril from any situation).

Except when he can't, which makes it worse.  I'm still head scratching as to why they didn't rush Charlie over to him.  Zeke had resurrected her the season before, so no reason Cas couldn't.

[Aeryn13]

I thought it was okay but I really had hoped for something better from Glynn. Guess that wasn`t really possible since the subject matter was "demo reel for hunter!Claire" and "kick-start Mick`s redemption". 

Still, I had pinned all my hopes on this being the last episode of this Season I could realistically expect for Dean to get the kill. And again, nada. Oh boy, I`m getting desperate here. 

What I did enjoy was Dean being written as smart and not made into a joke or a carricature in a contemptuous way. He caught to Mick`s lying and made it a two-fer interrogation. He also got the make his point with Mick without being painted in the wrong or as a jerk somehow.

So far I haven`t really had that much of a problem with Claire as a character but the actress is just not working for me. She can`t carry a show by any means.

They did some twisting to make it feasible for the Winchesters to continue working with Mick after they found out what he did. But at least if Mick gets the redemption story, then the set-up is for the other BMOL to be taken as shady and wrong. Dabb seemed to be so in love with the concept overall, I wasn`t sure if he`d basically screw over the last 11.5 years just to keep kissing their asses overall. And if it`s a mandate from on high, it`s not like the individual writers can do anything about it.     

[SueB]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

my feelings on this have nothing to do with whether or not I like Cas.  I actually like Cas as a character.  My problems with him are that his angel powers change every week, sometimes he can heal, sometimes he can't.  Soemtimes he can bring people back from the dead, sometimes he can't.  And, he makes life too easy.  Except when he doesn't, then you have to ask why didn't he do x.  But, I've stated my reasoning for thinking it wasn't important that he was called, and apparently I don't see the Cas/Claire relationship the same way you do.  Presumably she has Cas's number, but last year when she was hunting vamps, she called Dean, not Cas.  That says something to me.

I think she LIKES Cas.  But that also strikes me as a touchy subject.  She's a teen whose major trauma involved the loss of both parents.  I can imagine this is just one of many "don't go there" places that she avoids emotionally.  She's just not ready to lean on him or interact with him routinely.  And now she has Jody as a parental figure to cling to. She GETS Jody.  And it's a somewhat normal 'foster parent'-ish situation.  The Cas situation is really complicated.

Before Claire was bit, this was a "milk run" and pulling Cas off Kelly without her knowing would have just upset things.  They thought things were well in control.  Calling AFTER she got bit was time sensitive and they were all about the cure.  If Cas had his wings they could have called his feather ass over to help.  But he doesn't.  So they focused on fixing Claire.    

Don't get me wrong, a throw-away line about Cas being pissed would have been great.  But it's my contention that they WANT Cas to be out of sight, out of mind for plot purposes.  If that's the case, they have a thin line of reasoning to justify not mentioning him. 

[SueB]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I thought it was okay but I really had hoped for something better from Glynn. Guess that wasn`t really possible since the subject matter was "demo reel for hunter!Claire" and "kick-start Mick`s redemption". 

Still, I had pinned all my hopes on this being the last episode of this Season I could realistically expect for Dean to get the kill. And again, nada. Oh boy, I`m getting desperate here. 

What I did enjoy was Dean being written as smart and not made into a joke or a carricature in a contemptuous way. He caught to Mick`s lying and made it a two-fer interrogation. He also got the make his point with Mick without being painted in the wrong or as a jerk somehow.

So far I haven`t really had that much of a problem with Claire as a character but the actress is just not working for me. She can`t carry a show by any means.

They did some twisting to make it feasible for the Winchesters to continue working with Mick after they found out what he did. But at least if Mick gets the redemption story, then the set-up is for the other BMOL to be taken as shady and wrong. Dabb seemed to be so in love with the concept overall, I wasn`t sure if he`d basically screw over the last 11.5 years just to keep kissing their asses overall. And if it`s a mandate from on high, it`s not like the individual writers can do anything about it.     

To me, this set-up has been there since Day 1 of Season 12.  Re-affirmed MULTIPLE time throughout the season.  I know many were CERTAIN that the BMoL was a complete cluster regarding the BMoL story but the sign posts for this have been in neon IMO.  

So hopefully, with Sam and Dean BOTH making unambiguous "this is over the line" statements to Mick regarding Hayden, people no longer have any fear that the Winchesters are actually being sucked in by the BMoL.  Like AT ALL.  Mary has fallen for their methods. But as Dean made it clear, he's happy to take cases from them. He's not going to be considered an employee.  And now Mick is on his last chance.  If he has any survival skills and desire to keep the Winchesters working with them, he's going to have to stop making "ours is the better way" comments.  Because clearly Sam and Dean are not buying it.

[rue721]

Thinking about it, this episode is a re-do of No Exit in so many ways...I actually think that it was arguably better written than No Exit, too. Although I would say I enjoyed No Exit more, maybe that's just nostalgia.

[Morrigan2575]

7 hours ago, Jediknight said:

Yeah, Mick is being genuine.  Killing Hayden shook him.  It was one thing for him to learn about everything and think he could kill a werewolf with no problem, but he was faced with a high school girl who had just been attacked.  He was faced with an innocent person, and had to kill her, that shook him.  After that Dean told him about Magda which I'd imagine Mick didn't know about the abuse and torture Magda had faced, and Dean mentioned Hayden's mother now had to bury 2 children.  Everything Mick had learned now had a human face.  I think he is genuine and realizes the British Men of Letters aren't doing good work, they've gotten rid of the monsters, but it's came at a massive cost.

Absolutely, you can see it both when he realizes she was bit and then later as he watched her die. I truly feel that being exposed to Sam, Dean and Claire has helped him put a human face to all the "monsters". 

[Aeryn13]

The BMOL have been portrayed as shady all along but IMO the jury was still out on the narrative affirming the "wrong" over "isn`t a monster-free country/world worth it in the big picture?" They have really hedged their bets on that since yes, looked at logically, rather a few "innocent" monsters dead in their quest for effectiveness if so many people get saved. 

Mick being set on a path of redemption away from the BMOL hopefully knocks down what IS logically the superior position. If the BMOL or at least their leadership is revealed to be corrupt and evil and maybe not as effective as all that, then the pendulum swings again and the monster-free world they promise is either a pipe dream or really not worth it.     

[Katy M]

23 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think she LIKES Cas.  But that also strikes me as a touchy subject.  She's a teen whose major trauma involved the loss of both parents.  I can imagine this is just one of many "don't go there" places that she avoids emotionally.  She's just not ready to lean on him or interact with him routinely.  And now she has Jody as a parental figure to cling to. She GETS Jody.  And it's a somewhat normal 'foster parent'-ish situation.  The Cas situation is really complicated.

Yes, that's my take exactly.  She has forgiven him.  She likes him.  But, it's somewhat painful to be around him because he's a walking/talking reminder of her dad.

[Myrelle]

38 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

This episode couldn't have been more predictable.

ITA. It was always only going to go one of two ways, IMO-either Claire would become a "good" werewolf or the BMoL were going to have the magical cure-all for werewolves. It was the latter AND Mick is now clearly on the road to redemption because of that. It's the big bosses who are the true baddies, as many of us guessed and it won't even surprise me if they redeem Ketch, too, by the end of this season.

I'd hoped for more than just another supportive role for Dean in this one, but nope. Both brothers played the supportive roles to Claire and Mick which made for some very boring parts(I think I nodded off when Claire and Sam were talking in the car), but at least Dean was written as the emotional center(as he should have been, IMO) AND he was allowed to fully keep his hunter instincts by Glynn; and although the kill went to the least experienced "hunter" of the bunch, I think that was most likely showrunner-induced writing so as to further Mick's redemption in this one.

I thought the double interrogation scene was the best one of the episode and I WAS happy to see that Claire hugged Dean at the end, especially as he was clearly written in the patriarchal role in this episode, IMO.

And I'm in total agreement with those who feel that we were cheated out of seeing Dean take that swim. Boo! Hiss! to that omission even though it was expected-and this even though Dabb specifically referenced it in the producers' preview-again, very Predictable. He must really be desperate where it concerns the live ratings.

So, just a Meh episode, IMO and just another one to add the now growing pile of complete mediocrity after Regarding Dean.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Myrelle

[SueB]

From the writer:

[DittyDotDot]

Well, that was totally predictable, but inoffensive, and every one was smart, capable and no petty little jerks or sit 'n chats. I guess it's a win, then?

Hey, at least we got Spiderman's wife back and got to play the game I love so well. They should totally be hunting her, though. Two teenage kids in five years... . ;)

12 hours ago, Lemuria said:

So, doing something really stupid, overestimating your abilities and getting bitten by a werewolf as a result proves that you're ready to hunt on your own?  Oy.

Teenagers! Idiots, all of them. ;)

11 hours ago, rue721 said:

Maybe it doesn't have to. It just seems so coincidental to me. Like, Claire decides she has a new mother. There are these other mothers showing up out of the blue and coming into play. I guess my main question is, how do those storylines intersect?

I think they don't intersect exactly, but the theme of the season seems to be about mothers and how there are many different types of them.

8 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

The only thing I took away from this episode is that there might be were-mice running around and Dean was swimming without swim trunks.  Why didn't we get to see that?

::snort:: Were-mice...mouse-wolf...we need Dean's help here! ;)

Edited March 31, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

After Buzz interview w/ Kathryn Newton & Adam Fergus: 

[TexasGal]

Ok, sorta OT but why couldn't they just let Mick be Irish so we could hear that accent all the time?!?!  For the love of....what a waste.

Umm...episode....oh yeah!  How had they never thought to try blood of the maker for wolves after it worked for vamps?

Edited March 31, 2017 by TexasGal

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, TexasGal said:

How had they never thought to try blood of the maker for wolves after it worked for vamps?

I'm pretty sure in both cases, it was more than just the blood of the maker.  And, I'm also thinking the other ingredients would have been different or Sam would have been like, "hey, this is exactly like the vamp cure."

[Casseiopeia]

20 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm pretty sure in both cases, it was more than just the blood of the maker.  And, I'm also thinking the other ingredients would have been different or Sam would have been like, "hey, this is exactly like the vamp cure."

And why was Mick carrying around the ingredients for the cure if it didn't work?

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

And why was Mick carrying around the ingredients for the cure if it didn't work?

I don't know. I know for a fact that the vampire cure was more than just blood.  Samuel said "some we have, some we don't." And he said the hardest was the blood from the vamp that turned you.  So, whether or not the werewolf cure was just blood or not, the vampire one definitely wasn't and we don't know any of the other ingredients, so maybe there were some on there that was stuff that Sam and Dean linked with vampires and not with werewolves which would explain why they never tried it on a wolf before.

[SueB]

4 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

And why was Mick carrying around the ingredients for the cure if it didn't work?

I presumed he put it together while Claire was suffering on the couch.

Bits from the podcast: clearly Kathyrn and Adam are aware of what the fans react negatively to (calling Sam a skeezer, Mick killing Hayden).  

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

And why was Mick carrying around the ingredients for the cure if it didn't work?

Wasn't it just part of the BMoL's research Sam had been reading all along? Whether it worked or not, it would be included with the information, I'd think?

[mertensia]

19 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

And why was Mick carrying around the ingredients for the cure if it didn't work?

I assumed they grabbed medical stuff from the hospital and witchy stuff from the Impala's trunk.

[DittyDotDot]

Oh, the ingredients...sorry, I misread that as "recipe" somehow. My brain isn't at full power today...apparently!

Yeah, I figure they just happened to have what was necessary on hand and what was in that vile was only one ingredient in the cure he was mixing together, not that he was carrying a ready-made cure. But, you never know with this show?

[Geordiegirl1967]

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I truly feel that being exposed to Sam, Dean and Claire has helped him put a human face to all the "monsters". 

Also it is worth remembering that most of the BMoL have never even seen a real monster as they were eradicated decades ago. It is easy to make black and white assumptions when you are never faced with real victims / shades of grey 'monsters'. So I think that explains some of the BMoLs attitude. And for them of course it must seem obvious that the end (decades of a country free of monster killings) has justified the means (indiscriminate elimination of all monsters) when almost no one working now has any experience of the messy, violent and morally ambiguous actions it took to get them to the position they are now in in the UK.

1 hour ago, TexasGal said:

Ok, sorta OT but why couldn't they just let Mick be Irish so we could hear that accent all the time?!?!  

He is Irish? Why didn't they just use his real accent? Because his supposed London accent is just atrocious.

[Geordiegirl1967]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

I'm still head scratching as to why they didn't rush Charlie over to him.

I shouted from the rooftops about this when it happened. It was absolutely inexplicable why they didn't immediately call Cas. Charlie didn't need to stay dead. If they had at least explained it eg 'lets call Cas' ' No - she said don't bring me back' or 'he can only do it within minutes. We don't have time' or something!

Same deal when Sam died in Red Meat. Dean's first though should have been to get Cas to come and resurrect him. Instead he kills himself to beg Billy? Why? 

But these are just examples of the wider question of what on earth to do with Cas. He doesn't work as a human or a powerful angel or a bad guy - we know this because they have cycled through all these options and more and have run out of ideas every time.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, mertensia said:

Eh, that can happen in the spring in the Midwest. Snow one day and the next it's 55 out and people are wearing shorts. 

Seriously. Colorado isn't the Midwest but the joke there is if you don't like the weather wait 15 minutes.

[ahrtee]

44 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Seriously. Colorado isn't the Midwest but the joke there is if you don't like the weather wait 15 minutes.

I once went to a February meeting at 9 am wearing a medium-weight coat,  went out to lunch in brilliant sunshine in short sleeves without even a sweater, and by 5 pm slogged through 3 inches of snow (and still falling) to get to my car.   And IIRC, it was all gone by the next morning.  Ah, Colorado....

[AwesomO4000]

16 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I once went to a February meeting at 9 am wearing a medium-weight coat,  went out to lunch in brilliant sunshine in short sleeves without even a sweater, and by 5 pm slogged through 3 inches of snow (and still falling) to get to my car.   And IIRC, it was all gone by the next morning.  Ah, Colorado....

Heh. I used to go to camp in late August in Maine. On the same day we'd be wearing bathing suits at the beach in the afternoon and coats at night around a campfire after nightfall. That's one thing I like about Georgia. The weather may change back in forth - especially in late winter / early spring - but at least now it takes a couple of days. Now if only the rain wouldn't stay gone for weeks and weeks at a time.

I liked this episode better than I thought that I would, but I'll need a proper rewatch to form a complete opinion.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Seriously. Colorado isn't the Midwest but the joke there is if you don't like the weather wait 15 minutes.

TBH, that's pretty much been the joke in almost every place I've lived. Oregon, Montana, Minnesota and brief stints in Alaska and Idaho. It's good to wear layers because you just never know what the day will ultimately bring you.

1 hour ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

But these are just examples of the wider question of what on earth to do with Cas. He doesn't work as a human or a powerful angel or a bad guy - we know this because they have cycled through all these options and more and have run out of ideas every time.

Personally, I think Cass works great as human or angel, they just never seem to fully commit to either, IMO. They don't want the angel, but want the angel dust to sprinkle around when it's convenient. And, it seems to me they want the human, but don't know what to do with another human. So, they cycle back and forth and poor Cass ends up being a total mess. 

[rue721]

Thinking about it more, I actually am happy that Claire called Jodi her mother. It was earned. Let the warm and fuzzies commence.

I just ALWAYS tend to give things like that the side eye (ex Dean/Bobby) -- and am also maybe weirdly begrudging toward Claire in particular. I don't know what it is about her that I don't like, but I don't. I can't "believe" the character, if you know what I mean?

It's too bad, because IMO this episode was actually pretty well done. Well-written (or at least coherent!), thoughtful, pretty good pacing (if a bit slow), Mick was interesting. But I didn't enjoy the ride, because I dislike Claire. Eh.

Also, I think the direction was a little dry. Not a whole lot of "atmosphere" IMO. But that's just a quibble!

[DeeDee79]

I enjoyed this episode more than I thought I would since I knew Claire would be in it. She didn't bug me as much as usual on her last appearance and I'm pleasantly surprised that she didn't grate (too much) here also. I enjoy all of the supporting characters but there's nothing better than seeing the brothers hunting solo even if Mick tagged along. Even though I don't like that they're working with the BMOL I'm glad that they asserted their stance regarding all monsters not being bad.

14 hours ago, Katy M said:

Yes, that's my take exactly.  She has forgiven him.  She likes him.  But, it's somewhat painful to be around him because he's a walking/talking reminder of her dad.

This is exactly how I see it. Also Claire has her own world outside of Castiel now that consists of her life with Jody and Alex. He doesn't necessarily have to be in every episode that she's in. Now that I'm thinking about it has Jody ever even met Cas? I can't recall seeing them meet.