S12.E16: Ladies Drink Free

[Katy M]

12 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Now that I'm thinking about it has Jody ever even met Cas? I can't recall seeing them meet.

Not onscreen and no discussion onscreen of them having met.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

Not onscreen and no discussion onscreen of them having met.

I didn't think so but I wasn't sure. Thanks!

[catrox14]

Cas may not be important to all viewers but  he is to many others. IMO, this wouldn't even be a discussion if Dean was shown trying to call Cas and not getting an answer or he's sending a text that says "Thought you should know, we saw Claire. I'll tell you about it later." BOOM done.  It shows that Dean knows Cas would be concerned without Dean spilling ALL the beans now that Claire has survived. And it acknowledges the relationship between Cas and Claire. 

Who knows, maybe this was clever trolling by Dabb to get the audience asking "Where's Cas"? At least those in the audience  that are interested in the character, or hell even those that want to see him dead.

Edited April 1, 2017 by catrox14

[Bessie]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And it acknowledges the relationship between Cas and Claire.

I don't think there is one. They share a past, but I've never thought there was any relationship between them.  And I think that's a realistic take by TPTB.  Any relationship between those two, given their past, would be creepy and feel forced, to me. 

[SueB]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Cas may not be important to all viewers but  he is to many others. IMO, this wouldn't even be a discussion if Dean was shown trying to call Cas and not getting an answer or he's sending a text that says "Thought you should know, we saw Claire. I'll tell you about it later." BOOM done.  It shows that Dean knows Cas would be concerned without Dean spilling ALL the beans now that Claire has survived. And it acknowledges the relationship between Cas and Claire. 

Who knows, maybe this was clever trolling by Dabb to get the audience asking "Where's Cas"? At least those in the audience  that are interested in the character, or hell even those that want to see him dead.

As you know, I ADORE him.  I think they don't want to show the boys wondering where Cas is.  It's STUPID but I can see it going that way.  They also haven't mentioned Mary since The Raid.  Again, kinda stupid IMO.  But I'm positive it's deliberate.  It's a subtle.... these characters are getting along without the boys and running their own lives.  IRL? If they had a rapprochement w/ Mary, they'd show her texting again at least.  And Cas would check his feathery butt in on a daily freakin basis rather than have us worrying that he's lying in a ditch. (.... oops... my inner Mom came out in that one**). But seriously, we KNOW how much they love him yet they just go "blind" all the time.  It's a show crutch --- like your little kid who puts his hands over his eyes and says "you can't see me". As if we won't miss his presence.  They seem to want us to ignore the boys ignoring his absence when it's convenient to ignore his absence (like now, when he's up in Heaven doing something we have NO CLUE about). I'm convinced they didn't "forget" to mention either he OR Mary.  

 

**True fact: Last month my son was traveling for a few days between Virginia and South Carolina... at one point I sent a text 'Where Are You?" ... he responded "In a ditch." That's my child. 

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, SueB said:

**True fact: Last month my son was traveling for a few days between Virginia and South Carolina... at one point I sent a text 'Where Are You?" ... he responded "In a ditch." That's my child. 

Heh, when my mom calls me and asks me how I am, I usually respond, "Well, I'm not dead yet."

[catrox14]

Cas acknowledged it's her life to make her choices. He wasn't forcing anything. They seemed to be on good terms, and each was expressing caring for the other when they parted company. It doesn't mean it's a relationship where they are going to talk a lot but there is mutual concern IMO and IMO she would want to know if something bad happened to Cas. 

YMMV

Quote

CASTIEL

Um, Claire.

If you, um, if you...need anything, ever, I'm ... I'm ... just wanted you to know that...

(Claire reaches forward and hugs Castie

Quote

CLAIRE

Will you keep an eye on him?

(Dean and Claire look over at Castiel who is talking with Sam)

He's been through enough.

 

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Cas may not be important to all viewers but  he is to many others.

I know that Cas is an important character but him not being mentioned during a Claire ep isn't out of the ordinary to me. The last time we saw her she was bitten by a vampire but ( as far as we know ) there wasn't any discussion of those events with Castiel. Overall I know that he is tied to her history but it isn't odd to me that he isn't in the know with every interaction that she has with the brothers.

Edited April 1, 2017 by DeeDee79
grammer is important

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, SueB said:

characters are getting along without the boys and running their own lives.

? That ...isn't even the issue. I'm not sure how this went from my wonderment as to "Why didn't they let Cas know about Claire"  to "they are just getting on with their lives'.

IMO, it's a glaring shift from the inclusion of Cas in almost every episode this season by at least a mention of him which would in NO WAY detract from the mystery of Cas going back to Heaven. It's a totally stupid way to build a mystery. 

[bethy]

I liked this one just fine. Claire isn't my favorite, but I liked that her response to the lonely werewolf was that she wasn't like him because she had a family that loved her. I think she was including the Winchesters as part of that family. Her, "I have to do this alone," to Jody made me sigh a little just because we'd just seen how badly going it alone has been for her, but whatever.

I'm not a huge fan of Dean-is-grumpy-while-Sam-looks-uncomfortable-and-tries-to-smooth-things-over-with-others, I think because we've already seen a fair amount  of that in their relationship Mary this season. But I'm liking Mick and his realization that dealing with monsters isn't as black and white as he's thought. It was nice that they carried over the second chances theme to Mick. 

Dean as protective big brother is awesome as is Sam as connecting big brother. I wish we'd gotten to see Jody, though. I miss her.

I thought about Cas, too, at one point but in a, "If this were going to make sense, they'd probably touch base with Cas, but why would I expect this to make sense, oh well," kind of way. I just don't expect those emotional/logical connections to be consistent with Cas in show, since they can't even be bothered to make his powers consistent. It's like he's a game piece they drop into play when it suits them and then leave to the side of the board when he's not needed for plot purposes.

Edited April 1, 2017 by bethy

[SueB]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

? That ...isn't even the issue. I'm not sure how this went from my wonderment as to "Why didn't they let Cas know about Claire"  to "they are just getting on with their lives'.

IMO, it's a glaring shift from the inclusion of Cas in almost every episode this season by at least a mention of him which would in NO WAY detract from the mystery of Cas going back to Heaven. It's a totally stupid way to build a mystery. 

I didn't explain this well.  I think they are attempting to imply this is "normal" behavior.  But it's not normal and the attempt is not working.  

I'm in agreement with you.

[MysteryGuest]

I didn't read too much into the fact that they didn't mention Cas.  They've visited with Claire before and Cas hasn't been around or mentioned.  This was just a normal catch up with her until things went south very quickly. Cas can't teleport, so stopping to text or call him when they have one hour to find the werewolf who turned Claire just wouldn't be a good use of their time.  He wouldn't have been able to help them.  I'm sure, had they had more time, both Cas andJody would have been contacted.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I know that Cas is an important character but him not being mentioned during a Claire ep isn't out of the ordinary to me. The last time we saw her she was bitten by a vampire but ( as far as we know ) there wasn't any discussion of those events with Castiel. Overall I know that he is tied to her history but it isn't odd to me that he isn't in the know with every interaction that she has with the brothers.

That was pretty ridiculous to me as well. I bitched about it then. I didn't say Cas had to be in the know on every interaction they have with Claire. However, when Claire's life was on the line, IMO he deserved to know. It was stupid in vampire episode and it's stupid in this one, too. Her going to Jody's shouldn't erase her rapprochement with Cas. Claire can have Cas, Sam, Dean, Jody and Alex as her total family.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

That was pretty ridiculous to me as well. I bitched about it then. I didn't say Cas had to be in the know on every interaction they have with Claire. However, when Claire's life was on the line, IMO he deserved to know. It was stupid in vampire episode and it's stupid in this one, too. Her going to Jody's shouldn't erase her rapprochement with Cas. Claire can have Cas, Sam, Dean, Jody and Alex as her total family.

I didn't say that you thought he had to be in the know but that it wasn't odd to me that he wasn't in the know since he wasn't the last time.

Edited April 1, 2017 by DeeDee79

[Goldmoon]

Didn't like Dean and Sam not being able to handle 1.5 werewolves, nor did I like Mick saving Dean.  That felt so unearned and so insulting to my baby, I mean, uh Dean.  Never liked Claire and while I understand the boys not wanting to get between Claire and Jodi, I really don't want Jodi to feel she has a reason to be pissed off at them.  To the boys, Jodi should be ranked higher than Claire, especially since they had seen Claire botch a werewolf takedown after she stalked away from Sam in an immature huff.  I did like Dean making it clear that he was not onboard with hurting ALL monsters.  I loved it when he figured out that Mick had killed the girl.  That's my boy!

I hope we don't have any more disappointing eps between now and the finale.  This has been my least favorite season, and I wasn't a fan of either ten or eleven.

[MysteryGuest]

I also think that Cas more or less gave over Claire's care to Sam and Dean.  He felt responsible for the role he played in ruining her life, but he was never really good with her.  They honestly haven't had much of a relationship.  I think once Cas got Sam and Dean involved, and then Jody, he knew she was in good hands.  I don't believe he's had any contact with her since she left to go Iive with Jody, but Sam and Dean have seen her multiple times.  And based on Dean's fake phone call to her, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they keep in touch by phone or texting.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Goldmoon said:

Didn't like Dean and Sam not being able to handle 1.5 werewolves, nor did I like Mick saving Dean. 

Especially considering Sam took out like 10 werewolves after he was poisoned, shot in the head, stabbed, strangled, got a paper cut, died and resurrected. (some of things are not true).

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Goldmoon said:

That felt so unearned and so insulting to my baby, I mean, uh Dean. 

LOL!

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, SueB said:

I didn't explain this well.  I think they are attempting to imply this is "normal" behavior.  But it's not normal and the attempt is not working.  

I'm in agreement with you

Ah. Thanks for clarifying. I did not get that.  Derp! Thanks!

[ahrtee]

My two-cents on the Cas/Claire debate?  

I don't think Claire would even think of calling Cas.  He's not her father, but is wearing his meatsuit, which must still be incredibly painful to her.  She may have forgiven him for "killing" her father, but that doesn't mean she wants the reminder around all the time, especially wearing her father's face.  I think the same thing goes for Cas--he feels guilty for taking Jimmy away from her, and he wants to help her, but ONLY if she asks for it.  He's not going to try to force her to accept him.  That's why (as someone upthread said?) he put her welfare in the hands of the Winchesters.  He knows he can trust them to protect her as best they can.

Having said all that, I would also think that the Winchesters might want to let him know when Claire's in trouble, especially if there's the possibility that he might save her life.  But I can also see them wanting to leave it up to Claire.  However, yes, I would have liked a line where they at least asked:  "should we call Cas?" and *then* they could say any of the above.  I don't necessarily think leaving him out was deliberate--just that the writer(s) didn't really think about it.  YMMV.

I also remember that none of them called Jody, who is arguably a lot closer to Claire at the moment, and the one who would be most upset if she died.  And that was at Claire's request, so it seems they were following her lead.  At least the writers put that note in, which maybe was their nod to Claire's "family," acknowledging that they were more important *to her* than Cas.  

I was actually angrier at Claire taking off to keep hunting.  I was thinking that, after the near-death experience and seeing how badly she screwed up (ie, how much she has to learn) and when she talked about her family, about recognizing that they loved her and how much she appreciated them, she was going to say to hell with hunting (at least on her own, and at least for now) and going home till she learned more, at least.   The only reason I could see for her continuing to hunt solo (and everyone letting her go) is to set up for the next spinoff of teen hunters.  Ugh.

Edited April 1, 2017 by ahrtee
Clarification (I hope).

[Dobian]

Yay, it's Claire, blech.  Pretty much sums up the episode for me.

[SueB]

Watched again.  The show always is better when you play it commercial free.  It flows and you don't lose focus IMO. Highlights for the TL;DR crowd. 

Bits I picked up on:

- Ben was an awesome brother and Hayden got him killed.  He went out in the middle of the cold freakin' night to drag her underage butt out of a bar because her BFF told him the guy she was seeing was a little bit scary.  And Hayden bitched at him the whole time.  I feel really bad for Ben.  Much more then Hayden.

- The BMoL clearly have a new method for mass-killings of werewolves based on what Teen Wolf said.  So I watched with closed caption to the lists of "new toys" Mick mentioned and he said silver nitrate (which is what he injected into the girl) and 'sulfate gas'.  So... of course I had to look up 'sulfate gas'.  What came up was "hydrogen-sulfate gas' which is a colorless gas that smells like rotten eggs (the sulfer, no doubt).  It's very deadly in large quantities... but humans would not be immune (unlike the 'anti-vamp device' smoke bomb they used in The Raid).  THEN, I did a little more research.. Do you know what ELSE contains a tiny trace amount of hydrogen-sulfate gas?  Farts.  In fact, it's primarily why they smell so bad.  See, the methane in farts is actually odorless... it's the trace amounts of hydrogen-sulfate (also found w/ methane in the sewers) that make is smell.  So... after all this research, I think it was a fart joke.  And since Adam Fergus (Mick) joked about someone (I'm 100% convinced it was Jared) farting in the Impala... I'm thinking it was a well-deserved joke.  Having said this, if they have someway of mass killing werewolves with a concentrated amount... it's a horrible way to go (and not just because of the smell... you literally asphyxiate).

- I can't tell who I'm more impressed with, Mick or Adam.  I know that if Dean/Jensen came at me like he did Mick, I'd probably pee my pants.  DUDE is scary when he's pissed.  Which leads me to.. I think Dean suspected Mick as soon as he realized the dead girl had been turned.  I think he split up the group so he could interrogate Mick when he got him alone.  And Mick folded like a deck of cards.  As well he should (see aforementioned scary comments).  

- Mick DID prep the syringe with "all but the sire blood" while he and Claire were waiting. I watched closer this time.  He's prepping the syringe (pulling from a white bottle) before she starts to insta-heal.  Then he holds up a DIFFERENT bottle (brown) when he says he's going to sedate her.  Finally, you see that he stuck the Teen Wolf with the needle and drew his blood BEFORE he shot him with a gun.  You can see the blood entering a partially clear-liquid-filled syringe. 

- I think the main reason Sam and Dean got tossed around so much by the Teen Wolf and Claire!Wolf was because they needed BOTH alive.  Mick said the cure relied on live-sire blood. And of course Dean was trying to subdue Claire without hurting her too much.  I thought it was actually a very well done fight scene.

- Kathyrn Newton is growing into the roll IMO.  I DO think she gets saddled with "whiny teen" dialog. Still.  And that does her no favors. But the serious scenes?  I think she did very well.  I was particularly moved by her fear of calling Jody when she thought she was about to die.  On an interesting note, the boys must think pretty highly of her as well.  Kathryn mentioned that during her crying scene (when Dean is kneeling in front of her), Jensen is tying her shoelaces.  They usually don't prank people who they think are struggling.  And, per that interview I linked, they don't give them a lot of takes. So, she's doing pretty well to hold her own with those guys.  

- Watching with closed captioning, I'd say the director put some effort into the Claire song choices.  The lyrics when she is attacked and when she drives away are both very fitting.

- I did love the shock of the boys... they get their own room?  Fresh towels? And the self-criticism by Dean that he's "ruined" by the Brits. Also 10 points to the writer for the naked swimming fanfiction plot bunny.

- So Martin Luthor was a hunter?  That's a fun bit of lore.  Although we really didn't get much in the way of the etymology of "jingle" (as teased by Dabb).

- Claire, IMO, is NOT ready to be a hunter but the boys seem to feel like she's not going to be stopped.  She's clearly following the Dean model (flannel & learn quick or be dead).  

Bottom line on my rewatch -- this was really a good episode. Not "great" but a good MOTW episode with sufficient inclusion of the larger BMoL arc.  I liked the interaction between the boys & Claire. Mick seemed to show some grit. I wish Claire had shown some more 'learning' from these events.  I appreciate that she's gotten the hunting bug, but she needs some seasoning.  Finally, I thought it was a very "in-character" episode for the boys regarding how they are dealing with the BMoL, dealing with Claire, and still working well as a team.  I LOVED their unity on the "You killed a young girl. We're done." moment.  I feel like Charlie was right, when Sam and Dean work together, there's not much they can't do.  

Edited April 1, 2017 by SueB

[Goldmoon]

Forgot to mention that I really disliked the Mick-propping in the hospital. The boys know how to talk to people. And Claire reminds me so much of Jo. Haven't we seen the boys protect a young idiot girl before? Jo was better though. Not quite so determined to do things the hard way.

[Turtle666]

Screw Claire, every episode with her could have easily been replaced with things we wanted to know. I don't know exactly how many appearances she has made on the show but come on, I'd rather watch a whole show going into detail about how the Demon Killing Blade came into be (Though I heard they may never release that story) but that's my two cents. And Mary Winchester....chuck dammit this one I hate. When you say the words "Supernatural" my first thoughts are Sam and Dean, and that's exactly it. You can't just add a character like Mary, yes its there mother, but the show has been about Sam and Dean and I loooooved it when she left and it was just the boys again.

[Wayward Son]

Castiel did not kill Jimmy, that is a false statement. Raphael killed Jimmy!

 

Now on to my overall thoughts of the episode itself. 

 

I actually ended up liking this episode a lot more than I expected! It isn't one of my favourites, due to a lack of interest in Claire, but the overall characterisation of Sam and Dean was perfect, which made it an enjoyable watch. 

 

• I loved that Dean continued to show his discontent with the entire situation. Honestly, his skepticism and hostility is much more realistic than Sam's openness and fan boy attitude about the faux Hogwarts. 

 

* Best Line of the Episode: "You put on a flannel, you pick up a gun and you get good fast or you get dead faster" 

 

• Why mention Garth's name Dean? Even Sam seemed to have enough sense to not mention the name of their werewolf friend. A very strange scene considering Dean's general distrust of them. 

 

• The prank call from Dean made me chuckle. He's such a goofball <3 

 

• I have to admit that Adam Fergus did a good job of portraying Mick's internal battle. It's not so easy keeping things black and white when you're personally dealing with the so called irredeemable monsters. 

 

• Ugh, I'm not a fan of the continued age shaming from Claire. The brothers are perfectly capable of dealing with teenagers during hunts. Sam should have called her out on it. 

 

• Dean's interrogation of Mick was brilliant! I loved how he put him in a position where he had to answer the questions or risk ruining the overall hunt. 

 

• "I used to think the same thing" - That was a nice callback to the earliest years of the show! I also loved that they didn't feel the need to spoon feed us with examples of when Dean thought along the same lines as Mick and the British Man of Letters. 

 

• "It's my life... I get all the votes". Im not the biggest fan of Claire, but I'm pleased that she called Dean out on his overbearing, to the point of being disrespectful, tendencies. I also loved that Sam backed her up and Dean was made to realise that he was in the wrong for trying to steal Clare's right to decide what happens with her life. 

 

• I agree with an earlier poster ( @SueB maybe?) that the brothers were hampered in the fight scene by their need to keep the wolf alive in order to extract its blood. I believe it would have went much more smoothly if they had been fighting to kill rather than subdue.

 

• I'm pleased that Claire lived. I saw some complaints that it was predictable, but honestly I feel the opposite. On this show letting the recurring character live is the less predictable route.

 

• I liked that the episode finally started to tackle the fundamental difference between the Winchester's and Dean. I loved that both of them saw the murder of an innocent as crossing the line and made that clear when Sam stated "we aren't angry, we are done". Even the 'reconciliation scene' at the end made it clear that things were still not entirely cool with them, and they would not be compromising their view of things in future.

 

• So Dean got a hug even though Sam was the one who took the most care of her throughout the episode? Meredith your Dean bias is showing! Although I suppose it balances out Perez' preference for Sam. 

Edited April 1, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Aeryn13]

Quote

So Dean got a hug even though Sam was the one who took the most care of her throughout the episode? Meredith your Dean bias is showing! 

I don`t think Glynn treats Sam hateful or contemptuous in her episodes, despite apparently prefering Dean. Which is a lot more than I can say for Perez in the reverse. This episode focused a lot more on Claire and Mick but it wasn`t unfair to either brother either. 

Quote

"It's my life... I get all the votes". Im not the biggest fan of Claire, but I'm pleased that she called Dean out on his overbearing, to the point of being disrespectful, tendencies. I also loved that Sam backed her up and Dean was made to realise that he was in the wrong for trying to steal Clare's right to decide what happens with her life. 

I think the very existance of the cure painted Claire`s "kill me immediately, I wanna try nothing" reaction as too hasty. And every werewolf episode since "Heart" painted the mawkish Madison-kill-decision as ludicrous. 

In the end if Claire had said, I wanna die regardless, I don`t think Dean would have stood in the way of it but his stance in these situations seems to be to at least think of and discuss options. And that stance is not given a fair shake because the show likes to dismiss it as Dean just being "bossy". If someone is in histrionics, they shouldn`t be making snap decisions IMO. 

Quote

I loved that Dean continued to show his discontent with the entire situation. Honestly, his skepticism and hostility is much more realistic than Sam's openness and fan boy attitude about the faux Hogwarts. 

Not to mention when the BMOL clearly said "we`re gonna exterminate all the vampires", Sam`s response was "cool". Whereas when Mick says here "we exterminated all the werewolves", Sam says "even the ones who didn`t do anything?"

As seen with Lenore and her gang, vampires can decide to live "peacefully" just as werewolves can. So why does one species deserves more consideration than the other, Sam? 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think the very existance of the cure painted Claire`s "kill me immediately, I wanna try nothing" reaction as too hasty. And every werewolf episode since "Heart" painted the mawkish Madison-kill-decision as ludicrous.

yes, because every werewolf episode since Heart, they have conveniently changed the lore.

[Wayward Son]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think the very existance of the cure painted Claire`s "kill me immediately, I wanna try nothing" reaction as too hasty. And every werewolf episode since "Heart" painted the mawkish Madison-kill-decision as ludicrous. 

In the end if Claire had said, I wanna die regardless, I don`t think Dean would have stood in the way of it but his stance in these situations seems to be to at least think of and discuss options. And that stance is not given a fair shake because the show likes to dismiss it as Dean just being "bossy". If someone is in histrionics, they shouldn`t be making snap decisions IMO.

 

But the issue of whether Claire should choose to live as a werewolf like Garth or die like Madison like was not the thing they were discussing when Dean told her "you have no vote".

At that point in the conversation Mick had just finished explaining about the cure and its low chance of success. Claire's replied  "maybe the second time will be the charm" and then Dean told her she had no vote. Dean was clearly trying to deny Claire the right to decide if she wanted to take her chances on the cure or not. If anything he was trying to limit her options since there was only a small window of time it could possibly work. 

This type of overbearing behaviour is in character for Dean. He did the exact same thing to Sam in season 9 when he lied to Sam for months because Sam didn't get a vote on whether he wished to be possessed or not. The only difference here is that Claire was in a position to call him out on it and maintain her right to self-autonomy. 

In my opinion this scene was intended as a moment of growth for Dean since he ultimately agreed it was Claire's call and was later shown to ask "are you sure she definitely wants this?"

 

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Not to mention when the BMOL clearly said "we`re gonna exterminate all the vampires", Sam`s response was "cool". Whereas when Mick says here "we exterminated all the werewolves", Sam says "even the ones who didn`t do anything?"

As seen with Lenore and her gang, vampires can decide to live "peacefully" just as werewolves can. So why does one species deserves more consideration than the other, Sam? 

I totally agree with this! It's a definite case of changing his stance to reflect the needs of the episodes case of the week ugh. 

Edited April 1, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Aeryn13]

Quote

yes, because every werewolf episode since Heart, they have conveniently changed the lore.

I agree that`s the reason. But by doing this, the writers have to be aware that they are retroactively making the characters in the earlier episodes stupid. Evidently, they don`t care about this since they keep doing it.

Quote

This type of overbearing behaviour is in character for Dean. He did the exact same thing to Sam in season 9 when he lied to Sam for months because Sam didn't get a vote on whether he wished to be possessed or not. The only difference here is that Claire was in a position to call him out on it and maintain her right to self-autonomy. 

Dean is not the only character in the show who ever showed such behaviour. In general, I just don`t like the notion of breaking it down to bossy!Dean and enlightened!Sam. It`s probably a remnant of my hatred for how they resolved the Season 4 issues in Season 5. It`s like a red flag to me now.

And it wasn`t like Dean put up much of it a fight here, it was one and done in two lines of dialogue.  

Edited April 1, 2017 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

15 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Dean was clearly trying to deny Claire the right to decide if she wanted to take her chances on the cure or not. If anything he was trying to limit her options since there was only a small window of time it could possibly work. 

I don't think Dean was trying to deny Claire's right to choose.  I think he was just scared of losing someone else he cares about.   Living as a good werewolf can be done whereas the cure Mick was offering was unproven and also coming from a source Dean doesn't trust.  A very high chance of death.   I think it was more about him wanting Claire to choose the option that gave her a greatest chance at survival.

When we're scared its a natural reaction to want to attempt to want to regain control, even it means saying or doing something in the heat of the moment.  Dean backed down fairly quickly.  Which we've seen him do before.  It reminds me of the situation in Bloody Mary when Sam wanted to play bait.  Dean was no, I don't like it it.  Then Sam points out its the best way, Dean backed down and Sam played bait.  So its not like Dean is a brick wall in these situations or has never changed his tune before.

Dean doesn't like to see those he loves in danger or hurting.  I think it was far more about that than simply trying to control Claire.

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

In the end if Claire had said, I wanna die regardless, I don`t think Dean would have stood in the way of it but his stance in these situations seems to be to at least think of and discuss options. And that stance is not given a fair shake because the show likes to dismiss it as Dean just being "bossy". If someone is in histrionics, they shouldn`t be making snap decisions IMO. 

He also has an intense aversion to and fear of losing people that he loves. That's what that scene was about more than anything, IMO. That's not going to change in Dean(again IMO), nor would I want it to, his choice of words in this instance notwithstanding. Dean knows that in the end it would have been her choice because she was in a position to make that choice AKA she was conscious and coherent; but she is also very young and stupid and prone to rash decisions and choices as was also shown very well in this episode. And Claire WAS begging Mick to kill her when she was on the verge of the change so even the viewer could have become confused about what she really wanted, so Dean's question before he administered the cure was shown to be warranted, IMO-and Dean was the one who administered the possible cure(the one who does the dirty work) even though he knew that even if it succeeded would cause great physical pain to her. His "Are sure she wanted this?" was a legitimate question in his mind and tbh, in mine, too. Dean asking this kind of question was just common sense to me and it's not something involving character growth for what some will always call  his "control issues" at all. Character growth is something that these writers need to do more research on before trying to tackle it, IMO and especially seeing how they've mishandled the resurrection of Mary and the still continuous lying and mind games/manipulations that have been going on by the other characters this season.

Dean sometimes takes charge in that way because he feels he has to and because, in truth, the other characters look him to do that, and yes, even if they don't agree with him or like the decision that he makes at the time and even if they give him grief for it afterwards. What they can do and count on up to this point in the series(and what he's never truly been afforded by the writing to do as regards the other characters on this show), is assume that Dean will Truly Listen to them and what they have to say, and based on ALL the input, adapt or change his stance/decision, if he feels that the situation warrants it. THAT is IC for Dean, at this point in the series, IMO-but not so much for any of the other characters, again IMO. And THAT would be some character growth that I could get behind as actually being true character growth for characters like Sam and Cas and now Mary, too. It is also a leadership quality, and sometimes I wonder if these writers even know that they've imbued Dean with that quality in spades, even if they didn't know that they've been doing that until recently.

ETA: Kudos to your post, ILoveReading. It was much more succinct than mine and ITA.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Myrelle

[bearcatfan]

Someone had indicated that Mick was the one to inject Claire. It was actually Dean who gave her the injection with an assist from Sam.

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

He also has an intense aversion to and fear of losing people that he loves. That's what that scene was about more than anything, IMO. That's not going to change in Dean(again IMO), nor would I want it to, his choice of words in this instance notwithstanding. Dean knows that in the end it would have been her choice because she was in a position to make that choice AKA she was conscious and coherent; but she is also very young and stupid and prone to rash decisions and choices as was also shown very well in this episode. And Claire WAS begging Mick to kill her when she was on the verge of the change so even the viewer could have become confused about what she really wanted, so Dean's question before he administered the cure was shown to be warranted, IMO-and Dean was the one who administered the possible cure(the one who does the dirty work) even though he knew that even if it succeeded would cause great physical pain to her. His "Are sure she wanted this?" was a legitimate question in his mind and tbh, in mine, too. Dean asking this kind of question was just common sense to me and it's not something involving character growth for what some will always call  his "control issues" at all. Character growth is something that these writers need to do more research on before trying to tackle it, IMO and especially seeing how they've mishandled the resurrection of Mary and the still continuous lying and mind games/manipulations that have been going on by the other characters this season.

Dean sometimes takes charge in that way because he feels he has to and because, in truth, the other characters look him to do that, and yes, even if they don't agree with him or like the decision that he makes at the time and even if they give him grief for it afterwards. What they can do and count on up to this point in the series(and what he's never truly been afforded by the writing to do as regards the other characters on this show), is assume that Dean will Truly Listen to them and what they have to say, and based on ALL the input, adapt or change his stance/decision, if he feels that the situation warrants it. THAT is IC for Dean, at this point in the series, IMO-but not so much for any of the other characters, again IMO. And THAT would be some character growth that I could get behind as actually being true character growth for characters like Sam and Cas and now Mary, too. It is also a leadership quality, and sometimes I wonder if these writers even know that they've imbued Dean with that quality in spades, even if they didn't know that they've been doing that until recently.

ETA: Kudos to your post, ILoveReading. It was much more succinct than mine and ITA.

I agree.  Its very in character for Dean to go with the option that will leave the person alive and deal with any potential negative consequences later time.  He's seen Garth and Benny as examples that you can live as monster. 

Also Sam isn't really in a position to judge Dean here since he lied to Dean for weeks about where he was getting cases from.  He took away Dean's choice about whether or not he wanted to work for the men of letters.   So IMO, the show needs to address this if we're supposed to see this as character growth for Dean, otherwise its a double standard.

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Not to mention when the BMOL clearly said "we`re gonna exterminate all the vampires", Sam`s response was "cool". Whereas when Mick says here "we exterminated all the werewolves", Sam says "even the ones who didn`t do anything?"

As seen with Lenore and her gang, vampires can decide to live "peacefully" just as werewolves can. So why does one species deserves more consideration than the other, Sam? 

There are only two explanations I can think of.  Either Sam really didn't care about the werewolves and he only said it to placate Dean since he knows Dean doesn't really want to be there and is looking for an excuse to bale, or its because werewolves are more personal to Sam.  He doesn't know any vampires so he's not all that bothered if they're gone, but he is friends with a werewolf.  Wipe them all out and you wipe out Garth too.

Edited April 1, 2017 by ILoveReading

[auntvi]

10 hours ago, SueB said:

It's very deadly in large quantities... but humans would not be immune (unlike the 'anti-vamp device' smoke bomb they used in The Raid).  THEN, I did a little more research.. Do you know what ELSE contains a tiny trace amount of hydrogen-sulfate gas?  Farts.  In fact, it's primarily why they smell so bad.  See, the methane in farts is actually odorless... it's the trace amounts of hydrogen-sulfate (also found w/ methane in the sewers) that make is smell.  So... after all this research, I think it was a fart joke.

Hah! That's a lot more smart and subtle than the show's usual humor!

10 hours ago, SueB said:

Watching with closed captioning, I'd say the director put some effort into the Claire song choices.  The lyrics when she is attacked and when she drives away are both very fitting.

Yes, I noticed it more on my 2nd watch. The music and lyrics when Claire was attacked by the werewolf very effectively added to the horror/fright of that scene. That scene is also where I started to believe Kathryn Newton's acting a bit more.

[Binns]

Most of you have covered my feelings about this episode- I enjoyed it, even Claire, mostly bc Kathryn Newton did a great job at the end. I like this redemption arc for Mick (he's gonna die, I'm sure). I liked that the writer seems to have watched some episodes before because the characterizations were pretty good. 

One of the previews with Robert Singer had Singer saying there was a very brief clue about S13 somewhere in the episode. Any thoughts on what that was? 

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Binns said:

One of the previews with Robert Singer had Singer saying there was a very brief clue about S13 somewhere in the episode. Any thoughts on what that was? 

Moved to the Speculation Only thread...

Edited April 1, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

I don't think Dean was being taught a lesson for shouting at Claire. He acted like a parent that was dealing with a teenager who made one bad decision after another throughout the episode.

Given that Dean knew Garth had been living successfully and away from humans as a werewolf,  he believed Claire could do that, too. Goal for Dean: Claire lives. What could he have done to stop her? Kill her? Kill Mick? Kill Sam? Glare at them a lot? Despite Dean's bluster and shouting, he had no recourse really. And I think he knew it, so he was shouting out of fear, anger and frustration and was hoping Sam would pick his side (Hmmm is there a theme this season )

Given that Sam made a choice to work with the BMoL, I wondered if he was at least mildly interested in whether the cure would work.  He mildly defends them to Dean and seems to like the idea of their gadgets. I wondered if it was maybe even more than "her life" and "autonomy" but also him reflecting back to when he had to kill Madison. Maybe he was worried that if Claire lived as a werewolf that eventually the BMoL would go after her so better to try the  cure.  

Assuming that Sam was 100% sincere that it was Claire's life and she had the right to make her own choices, then I hope that he was considering not only Dean's unilateral decisions about Sam, but also his own unilateral decision-making (i.e taking Dean to a faith healer unbeknownst to Dean even though he knew Dean was/is/was an atheist and he would hate it; the months he spent hunting the Trickster to save Dean & his attempts to find a way to get Dean out of his deal even when Dean warned him to stop because then Sam would drop dead; when he cured demon!Dean against demon!Dean will , and worked to remove the Mark of Cain in spite of Dean telling him to stop).

Dean was grumpy uber protective!not!Dad and Sam was understanding, middle straddling not!Dad parental figures in this episode so I guess they had to be arguing about dealing with her which didn't make sense given they both wanted her to survive.

[ILoveReading]

I wonder if the thing that's going to be revisted in s13 is Hunter's Hogwarts.  I have this feeling that if Sam doesn't die in the cliff hanger he will probably spend Hiatus there.

Its why I'm not sure I believed Sam when he said they were done.  He seems to enamored of the toys, lore books, and people who share his interests,  the possibility of going to Kendricks and seemingly the only way he can connect with his mom, that I don't see him giving it up because he disagreed with how they treated a werewolf. 

Edited April 1, 2017 by ILoveReading

[SueB]

I agree with those who say it shows character growth.  Dean initial "no vote" was his instinctual response.  Dean reaffirming "she wants this, right?" is the Dean who knows he has to accept others choices.  She was definitely taking a high risk with her life but it was her life -- and it was a chance at a cure.  He can relate to that post MoC.  

However, I see NO way that Dean just lets Claire eat a bullet immediately if there was no other option.  They've seen success since S2 with people living with it. He would fight with her until she at least tried to deal with it.  Until she at least spoke to Jody and had given "living with it" a fighting chance.  

If she turned Rugaru, OTOH, and had already turned ... he'd let her eat a bullet.  Because apparently you can't "live with it" as a Rugaru.

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, SueB said:

I agree with those who say it shows character growth.  Dean initial "no vote" was his instinctual response.  Dean reaffirming "she wants this, right?" is the Dean who knows he has to accept others choices.  She was definitely taking a high risk with her life but it was her life -- and it was a chance at a cure.  He can relate to that post MoC.  

 

What constitutes "acceptance" as character growth here? Does Dean have to LIKE the decision for it to be acceptance? Does he have to say "I was wrong and you were right" for it to be acceptance?  If acceptance is just tolerating something that you don't like for the sake of yourself or others hasn't Dean been doing that his whole life? 

IMO Dean was acquiescing to the group here. That's why he asked for reassurance that is what Claire really wanted because he doesn't agree with the choice but he took on the responsibility of the possible killing blow himself. That's Dean. That is what Dean does. And it's what he's done his whole life.

--Just like him not agreeing with Sam going with Ruby but having to "accept" it and when he didn't he was shamed for it. As though he was wrong for being against it. 

--Just like him not agreeing with Sam becoming Lucifer's vessel but going to be with him when he died.
--Just like him not agreeing with removing the Mark of Cain because he had it under control and told Sam to stop because he felt something bad was happening. But he had to accept it when Sam went ahead with the spell quest since he wasn't given a vote at all.

--Just like him not agreeing with Sam and Mary working with the BMoL but "accepting" it because he has little choice if he wants to remain in good relations with Sam and Mary.

I'm really not seeing this as being all that different than ever before. 

[SueB]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 

What constitutes "acceptance" as character growth here? Does Dean have to LIKE the decision for it to be acceptance? Does he have to say "I was wrong and you were right" for it to be acceptance?  If acceptance is just tolerating something that you don't like for the sake of yourself or others hasn't Dean been doing that his whole life? 

IMO Dean was acquiescing to the group here. That's why he asked for reassurance that is what Claire really wanted because he doesn't agree with the choice but he took on the responsibility of the possible killing blow himself. That's Dean. That is what Dean does. And it's what he's done his whole life.

--Just like him not agreeing with Sam going with Ruby but having to "accept" it and when he didn't he was shamed for it. As though he was wrong for being against it. 

--Just like him not agreeing with Sam becoming Lucifer's vessel but going to be with him when he died.
--Just like him not agreeing with removing the Mark of Cain because he had it under control and told Sam to stop because he felt something bad was happening. But he had to accept it when Sam went ahead with the spell quest since he wasn't given a vote at all.

--Just like him not agreeing with Sam and Mary working with the BMoL but "accepting" it because he has little choice if he wants to remain in good relations with Sam and Mary.

I'm really not seeing this as being all that different than ever before. 

The difference between then and now is that "then" Dean just agreed so as to keep the "peace".  It's different now.  Now Dean is actually open to the topic/concept and is more open minded.

So, with Claire, every bone in his body wanted to protect her BUT he knew that both she and Sam had a good point.  And he was willing to accept the consequences of that decision.  SO, if Claire had died, he would have been devastated but he would have taken comfort that this is what she really wanted.  He wouldn't IMO have had regrets over trying the cure. More likely his regrets would have been over her involvement in hunting in the first place.  

Just like working with the BMoL.  He's tetchy working with them and on edge for any mistakes, but that was not Sam who said "second chance", that was both of them.  Clearly they had discussed it.  And he isn't completely against working with the BMoL.  He sees the value in getting cases from them.  He has his limits but he's NOT (IMO) just doing this to keep Sam and Mary happy.  He's giving them a real shot.  

But most importantly, what makes this particular episode show growth, is that he was prepared to see Claire do something really risky because it's what SHE wanted.  He respected her choice.  Not at first, but he put the syringe in himself.  That wasn't accidental.  It didn't leave him an out to later say "I wish we hadn't done that." He DID it.  

So, where you see him just cooperating to keep peace, I see him open to the different ideas and seeing value there.  

Edited April 1, 2017 by SueB

[Aeryn13]

Quote

IMO Dean was acquiescing to the group here. That's why he asked for reassurance that is what Claire really wanted because he doesn't agree with the choice but he took on the responsibility of the possible killing blow himself. That's Dean. That is what Dean does. And it's what he's done his whole life.

I agree. He has let others get their way rather easily in the past. And it wasn`t any different here. One or two lines of objection, like, what a tough nut to crack.  

And I totally believe he would have regretted using the cure if Claire had died. IMO that would have been the natural response for anyone in this situation. If the cure hadn`t worked and Sam and Mick for example hadn`t regretted using it, I would have gone: "what the hell is wrong with you?" Accepting someone`s decision has IMO nothing to do with that.   

Edited April 1, 2017 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

34 minutes ago, SueB said:

The difference between then and now is that "then" Dean just agreed so as to keep the "peace".  It's different now.  Now Dean is actually open to the topic/concept and is more open minded.

So, with Claire, every bone in his body wanted to protect her BUT he knew that both she and Sam had a good point.  And he was willing to accept the consequences of that decision.  SO, if Claire had died, he would have been devastated but he would have taken comfort that this is what she really wanted.  He wouldn't IMO have had regrets over trying the cure. More likely his regrets would have been over her involvement in hunting in the first place.  

Just like working with the BMoL.  He's tetchy working with them and on edge for any mistakes, but that was not Sam who said "second chance", that was both of them.  Clearly they had discussed it.  And he isn't completely against working with the BMoL.  He sees the value in getting cases from them.  He has his limits but he's NOT (IMO) just doing this to keep Sam and Mary happy.  He's giving them a real shot.  

But most importantly, what makes this particular episode show growth, is that he was prepared to see Claire do something really risky because it's what SHE wanted.  He respected her choice.  Not at first, but he put the syringe in himself.  That wasn't accidental.  It didn't leave him an out to later say "I wish we hadn't done that." He DID it.  

So, where you see him just cooperating to keep peace, I see him open to the different ideas and seeing value there.  

Dean has also done this is the past. This isn't new.  Freaks and Geeks was pretty similar to this episode, and Dean felt the same protectiveness toward Krissy  and he doesn't want her to hunt, telling her she was going to her Aunts.  

Quote

DEAN

Okay. Whenever you're ready, we'll be in the car.

 

KRISSY

What are you talking about?

 

DEAN

Your aunt? Cincinnati? Normal life? We'll be there by lunch tomorrow.

 

KRISSY

Look, I hate how we were put together, but...I can't deny that it feels right. And why should I let Victor

ruin that, too?

 

DEAN

So, what you're saying is that you like that boy over there and you want to stay?

 

KRISSY

What? Aiden? No. I mean... He's like my brother. It's nothing like that.

 

DEAN

Well, you're all still minors.

 

KRISSY

Not for long. Josephine will be 18 in a few months. And we all have a life and each other here.

 

DEAN

And hunting?

 

KRISSY

We won't go looking for it.

But if any monsters show up

around here, they better look out.

 

DEAN

Okay. Good.

 

KRISSY

Really? I thought I was gonna have to fight you way more on that.

 

DEAN

Well, you're right. You're not a kid anymore. You can make your own decisions.

 

KRISSY

Dean didn't just agree to keep the peace with Krissy he was willing to listen to her view point even if he didn't agree that she would stay out of hunting.  He mentions this to Sam at the end of the ep that he didn't believe it was possible to get out. He will listen and back down if he thinks the other person is making a reasonable point. 

So again, this is Dean going by whats in front of him, and listening to Claire, just like he did Krissy, But I don't see it as character growth when he's been shown to listen in the past.

[DeeDee79]

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

But I don't see it as character growth when he's been shown to listen in the past.

Great point. Dean isn't as pigheaded as some make him out to be and he doesn't always think that his way is the only way. He definitely has a dominant personality and he's very assertive when it comes to the well being of those that are close to him but he doesn't ignore dissenting opinions if they're more logical than his.

[companionenvy]

On the point above about Sam's potential inconsistency in rejecting Mick's approach to werewolves but being seemingly OK with the BMOL's "kill all vamps" solution, I think it makes sense.

Vampires live off of blood. This is a craving they have 24-7, and not one they can simply resist. We have seen a vanishingly small group of vampires agree to live off of cow blood rather than human blood, and another vampire -- Benny -- who was trying to do the right thing, but felt hopeless enough about his chances of doing so for all of his existence that he voluntarily returned to purgatory. In any case, even for the Winchesters, the default assumption with vampires is that you kill them. In addition, it seemed like what the BMOL was doing was taking out individual vampire nests in a highly, even eerily efficient manner, not pushing a "vamp genocide" button. And taking out vamp nests is pretty much always the right call. But theoretically, if Benny were still hanging around in New Orleans, there's no reason the BMOL would have to kill him as a byproduct of killing the other vamps in the area, although given their MO, they clearly wouldn't buy the possibility of an exception if they tracked him down. If Sam and Dean were utilizing the BMOL's methods, on the other hand they would be perfectly capable of deciding not to kill a particular group or individual if they had reason to believe they weren't causing any harm. 

 So, given the qualities of the species, "cool" is a fairly reasonable response to  "almost every vampire in this region has been destroyed," and not one that necessarily precludes Sam from believing that the occasional vampire might be deserving of survival. Guilty until proven innocent is a pretty reasonable policy when it comes to vampires.  Werewolves are a very different matter because, as Dean points out in this episode, werewolves are human for the great majority of the time, and are capable of taking precautions to avoid hurting people for the few nights a month where they aren't.  It may be risky to let a werewolf live, but that's a risk that, in the Winchesters' view, a decent person simply has to take. 

[bearcatfan]

27 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

On the point above about Sam's potential inconsistency in rejecting Mick's approach to werewolves but being seemingly OK with the BMOL's "kill all vamps" solution, I think it makes sense.

Vampires live off of blood. This is a craving they have 24-7, and not one they can simply resist. We have seen a vanishingly small group of vampires agree to live off of cow blood rather than human blood, and another vampire -- Benny -- who was trying to do the right thing, but felt hopeless enough about his chances of doing so for all of his existence that he voluntarily returned to purgatory. In any case, even for the Winchesters, the default assumption with vampires is that you kill them. In addition, it seemed like what the BMOL was doing was taking out individual vampire nests in a highly, even eerily efficient manner, not pushing a "vamp genocide" button. And taking out vamp nests is pretty much always the right call. But theoretically, if Benny were still hanging around in New Orleans, there's no reason the BMOL would have to kill him as a byproduct of killing the other vamps in the area, although given their MO, they clearly wouldn't buy the possibility of an exception if they tracked him down. If Sam and Dean were utilizing the BMOL's methods, on the other hand they would be perfectly capable of deciding not to kill a particular group or individual if they had reason to believe they weren't causing any harm. 

 So, given the qualities of the species, "cool" is a fairly reasonable response to  "almost every vampire in this region has been destroyed," and not one that necessarily precludes Sam from believing that the occasional vampire might be deserving of survival. Guilty until proven innocent is a pretty reasonable policy when it comes to vampires.  Werewolves are a very different matter because, as Dean points out in this episode, werewolves are human for the great majority of the time, and are capable of taking precautions to avoid hurting people for the few nights a month where they aren't.  It may be risky to let a werewolf live, but that's a risk that, in the Winchesters' view, a decent person simply has to take. 

Also, even the one vampire (besides Benny) that they let live, Lenore, stated that she broke. Her entire nest went back to feeding on humans and she willingly died because the bloodlust was so great. As far as werewolves are concerned, however, even the one who turned Mike in "Bitten" had gone years without killing. I think it was at least 10 although I'm not sure as I've only seen that one a couple times.

So they don't know any vampires personally that are not hurting humans. Benny is in Purgatory and so is Lenore presumably. They know several werewolves who don't hurt humans. Garth's whole pack plus Kate.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

Guilty until proven innocent is a pretty reasonable policy when it comes to vampires.  

But "innocent until proven guilty" has been Sam's message from the very beginning, with virtually every monster they've come across--including the ghost in Road Kill, Jack the rugaru, and all the way up through Kate the werewolf (not to mention Garth's whole pack) to the pishtaco.  Even Dean let Amy's kid go because he'd never killed anybody...yet.  So just the fact that some *want* to "be normal" (or at least, keep a low profile) means that they should be given a chance, according to Sam's past history.

48 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

So they don't know any vampires personally that are not hurting humans. Benny is in Purgatory and so is Lenore presumably. They know several werewolves who don't hurt humans. Garth's whole pack plus Kate.

But the most important point is:  maybe the reason why they never met a vampire who managed to live on canned blood is that they only come across the ones who are killing, so they're hunting them.  They didn't even know there were vamps who lived on cow's blood or werewolves who lived on animal hearts till they met them.  So, for all they know, there are whole communities of monsters who've stayed off the radar *because* they've been clean.  I'm not saying there are, but just that someone (I would expect Sam) would realize that.  

Edited April 2, 2017 by ahrtee

[bearcatfan]

6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But the most important point is:  maybe the reason why they never met a vampire who managed to live on canned blood is that they only come across the ones who are killing, so they're hunting them.  They didn't even know there were vamps who lived on cow's blood or werewolves who lived on animal hearts till they met them.  So, for all they know, there are whole communities of monsters who've stayed off the radar *because* they've been clean.  I;m not saying there are, but just that someone (I would expect Sam) would realize that.  

Which brings me to a point I made back in "The Raid" thread. If that is the case, then they are not going to come to the attention of the BMoL either based on how they hunt them. They don't have a vampire detection device. At least not that they've mentioned. They shouldn't be able to find vampires unless they are actively drawing attention to themselves. Combine this with the fact that Sam and Dean don't have a specific vampire to be concerned about, I can understand the reaction may be different. It's plausible that Sam never considered that they were killing vampires that aren't feeding on humans because they wouldn't be attracting attention. I'm not sure why they should assume that monsters who stay off the radar would be killed because if they stay off the radar, the BMoL shouldn't know about them.

[ahrtee]

19 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

Which brings me to a point I made back in "The Raid" thread. If that is the case, then they are not going to come to the attention of the BMoL either based on how they hunt them. They don't have a vampire detection device. At least not that they've mentioned. They shouldn't be able to find vampires unless they are actively drawing attention to themselves. Combine this with the fact that Sam and Dean don't have a specific vampire to be concerned about, I can understand the reaction may be different. It's plausible that Sam never considered that they were killing vampires that aren't feeding on humans because they wouldn't be attracting attention. I'm not sure why they should assume that monsters who stay off the radar would be killed because if they stay off the radar, the BMoL shouldn't know about them.

I don't know how the BMoL are tracking them (maybe they *do* have a Vamp Detection Device!), but it seems to me that they must have some pretty sophisticated ways (as opposed to waiting for the bodies to drop and then tracking each individual nest, the way hunters do).   They did say that they did intensive research to follow the trails from nest to nest to see where they were going and who they were interacting with, so chances are that they might be able to track those who left a nest (to go straight) or might have run across an "active" vamp who knows a laying-low nest.  

From The Raid (from http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=12.14_The_Raid_(transcript):
Serena: You American hunters tend to see vampires as criminals, rogues. One gets out of line, you show up, lop off its head, and leave town. We treat them more like terrorists.
Alton: [ Clears throat ] Uh, vampires may typically hunt alone or in small nests. But scratch the surface, and they're all connected, from the lowest drone all the way up the chain to the top. 
Sam: To the Alpha.
Alton: Mm-hmm.
Mick: When we find a nest, we don't just charge in a la John Wayne, guns a-blazing.
Sam: [ Clears throat ] 
Mick: We wait, we watch.
Serena: We determine the size of the nest, its relationships to other vampire groups.
Alton: They tend to trade amongst themselves -- information, victims.
Serena: We're constantly expanding and refining our intelligence. And when we've learned all we can, we go, we assemble a team – 
Mary: And wipe them out.

All I'm saying is that if they truly believe they got rid of *all* the vamps in England, it would include any covert nests, and considering their level of technology (and bragging about their capabilities) it seems that they have ways of finding even the sleeper cells--even if they're not sharing victims, I'm pretty sure they would share the warning that someone is killing them all with new weapons, and especially the news that the Alpha is dead.  (Hmmm...I wonder if the BMoL can work out the Alpha's connection to all his "children" and use that to track?)  

In any event, if I were the boys, I wouldn't count on the BMoL either not knowing about or allowing any "monsters" to live.  (Though apparently that hasn't occurred to Dean yet, or he wouldn't have mentioned Garth by name. *sigh*)  

Edited April 2, 2017 by ahrtee

[rue721]

Can't the BMOL just travel around aiming their vamp-killing device everywhere, whether they know there are vampires in the vicinity or not?

The BMOL-mobile would be like the Google Earth car, but instead of a camera, they'd have an anti-vampire ray gun mounted on their roof, and instead of mapping every road in the country, they'd be systematically wiping out a species.