S07.E16: The First Day of the Rest of Your Life

[smorbie]

On 4/11/2017 at 9:47 PM, AngelaHunter said:

They have no excuse to fail. The Negans, even with automatic weapons, couldn't hit a giant tiger at close range.

I just have to say that this last minute cavalry charge - coming just as someone is one nano-second from getting his head smashed (exactly the same thing happened at Terminus with Glenn) - was exciting in Westerns back in the '60s. Now it's a huge eye-roller. How many more times will that be trotted out?

I thought it was great.  I don't watch westerns and don't remember seeing it in the ones I've been forced to endure.

[Raven1707]

The Cable Live +7 ratings are in for "The First Day of the Rest of Your Life":

The season finale of “The Walking Dead” had the biggest total gains in the week of March 27, as it usually does. The finale added 2.6 points to its 18-49 rating (5.4 to 8.0) and 5.1 million viewers within a week.  [16.427 million]

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/dvr-ratings/cable-live-7-ratings-for-march-27-april-2-2017/

Here are the Live + Same Day, Live +3, and Live +7 ratings for Season 7:

10-23-16 “The Day Will Come When You Won’t Be” 17.029 million; 20.793 million; 21.528 million
10-30-16 “The Well” 12.455 million; 16.849 million; 17.947 million
11-06-16 “The Cell” 11.721 million; 16.225 million; 17.208 million
11-13-16 “Service” 11.402 million; 15.718 million; not reported
11-20-16 “Go Getters” 10.996 million; 15.267 million; 16.308 million
11-27-16 “Swear” 10.403 million; 14.275 million; 15.096 million
12-04-16 “Sing Me a Song” 10.481 million; 14.940 million; 15.776 million
12-11-16 “Hearts Still Beating” 10.583 million; 15.198 million; 16.020 million

02-12-17 “Rock in the Road” 11.996 million; 15.932 million; 16.837 million
02-19-17 “New Best Friends” 11.075 million; 15.243 million; 16.171 million
02-26-17 “Hostiles and Calamities” 10.423 million; 14.740 million; 15.756 million
03-05-17 “Say Yes” 10.163 million; 13.669 million; not reported
03-12-17 “Bury Me Here” 10.676 million; 13.682 million; 14.430 million
03-19-17 “The Other Side” 10.318 million; 13.880 million; 14.776 million
03-26-17 “Something They Need” 10.543 million; 14.014 million; 14.771 million
04-02-17 “The First Day of the Rest of Your Life” 11.314 million; 15.637 million; 16.427 million

Kirkman & Gimple's happy dance aside, the loss of more than 5 million viewers between the premiere and the finale has to sting...that's too steep of a drop to shrug off as mere attrition.

[Gobi]

3 hours ago, Raven1707 said:

The Cable Live +7 ratings are in for "The First Day of the Rest of Your Life":

The season finale of “The Walking Dead” had the biggest total gains in the week of March 27, as it usually does. The finale added 2.6 points to its 18-49 rating (5.4 to 8.0) and 5.1 million viewers within a week.  [16.427 million]

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/dvr-ratings/cable-live-7-ratings-for-march-27-april-2-2017/

Here are the Live + Same Day, Live +3, and Live +7 ratings for Season 7:

10-23-16 “The Day Will Come When You Won’t Be” 17.029 million; 20.793 million; 21.528 million
10-30-16 “The Well” 12.455 million; 16.849 million; 17.947 million
11-06-16 “The Cell” 11.721 million; 16.225 million; 17.208 million
11-13-16 “Service” 11.402 million; 15.718 million; not reported
11-20-16 “Go Getters” 10.996 million; 15.267 million; 16.308 million
11-27-16 “Swear” 10.403 million; 14.275 million; 15.096 million
12-04-16 “Sing Me a Song” 10.481 million; 14.940 million; 15.776 million
12-11-16 “Hearts Still Beating” 10.583 million; 15.198 million; 16.020 million

02-12-17 “Rock in the Road” 11.996 million; 15.932 million; 16.837 million
02-19-17 “New Best Friends” 11.075 million; 15.243 million; 16.171 million
02-26-17 “Hostiles and Calamities” 10.423 million; 14.740 million; 15.756 million
03-05-17 “Say Yes” 10.163 million; 13.669 million; not reported
03-12-17 “Bury Me Here” 10.676 million; 13.682 million; 14.430 million
03-19-17 “The Other Side” 10.318 million; 13.880 million; 14.776 million
03-26-17 “Something They Need” 10.543 million; 14.014 million; 14.771 million
04-02-17 “The First Day of the Rest of Your Life” 11.314 million; 15.637 million; 16.427 million

Kirkman & Gimple's happy dance aside, the loss of more than 5 million viewers between the premiere and the finale has to sting...that's too steep of a drop to shrug off as mere attrition.

If anything, one would expect a  season finale to have an audience nearly equal to the opener.

[that one guy]

I think I barely made the +7 cut, watched the last two on 4/8 or 4/9. Some of the fall is just the gradual drift of the audience from watching live to watching later. But some is definitely the whole Negan storyline:

1. Negan is not a compelling character, at least not to me. YMMV

2. They started the season by killing off a couple fan favorite characters, and the season has sidelined other favorites for many episodes at a time, to focus on less popular people. Boy am I not enthusiastic about the promise of an upcoming episode focused on Eugene's relationship with Negan. 

3. This is probably the biggest problem of all - too many extra-long episodes. They act like this is a treat for the fans, but the long episodes don't have more good stuff in them, they just move slower and thus are more boring. Edit them down to 45 mins of run time! If all the action is going to be in the last 10 minutes of the episode, don't make the audience wait an hour and a half to get there!

[rmontro]

4 hours ago, Gobi said:

If anything, one would expect a  season finale to have an audience nearly equal to the opener.

This season opener was a big one though.  Still, there are signs the audience continues to slowly fall off.

I'm surprised so many people dislike the Negan character.  I like him in the comic books, and I like Jeffrey Dean Morgan's portrayal of him.  I certainly think he lives up to the "best villain since the governor" billing.  I think it's just part of people getting tired of the show.  The main criticism I have of TWD is all of the rotating side story episodes where you don't see the main characters, and maybe only one or two characters are featured.  I did like the Morgan learns Akido episode though.

[ghoulina]

Even if I was still loving the show (which I haven't seen since season 4), I don't think I would like Negan's character. I would not call him "the best villain since the governor"; probably because I didn't really like the governor either. But he was better than Negan. 

I don't like Negan because he's just too much. He's like a character of a villian; he doesn't seem real. He does not seem like a fully fleshed out person, but is just another example of the showrunners' current modus operandi - shock and awe. He's there to swing his bat around and be horribly violent and impress us all. It's not impressing me. I don't find him interesting at all. He is long winded and obnoxious and I find his entire character to be an example of very lazy storytelling. "This guy will bash people's heads in with a barbed wire bat and throw them into fires. Isn't that awesome??" NO. No, it's not. 

My favorite villains were Joe (of the Claimers) and Gareth. I thought the whole cannibal angle was a lot more interesting and scary than anything the Guv or Negan ever threw at us. Gareth was so clam and methodical. He didn't make things personal. I liked their back story, and how they just had to do what they had to do. Joe and the Claimers were the most believable type of bad guys you'd meet in the ZA. I didn't like them, but I got why they operated as they did. Neither of these characters hit you over the head with just how "bad" they were. They didn't hog up the screen, but during the short time they were on, we got more of a backstory and understanding of them than we ever did (or will) with a character who's now been on over one entire season. 

[Ohwell]

2 hours ago, ghoulina said:

Joe and the Claimers

There should be a band with that name.  

[Nashville]

17 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

There should be a band with that name.  

There is.

[Ohwell]

Wow.  I think that's a cool name for a band.

[Nashville]

23 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

Wow.  I think that's a cool name for a band.

Agreed; when someone made a "Joe and the Claimers" reference back when the episode aired, I'd thought the same thing - that this would be a cool name for my band.  

Insofar as I am constrained by not having (a) any singing talent, (b) any talent with a musical instrument, or ( c) a band, however, I let it slide.  :>

[ganesh]

8 hours ago, ghoulina said:

I don't like Negan because he's just too much. He's like a character of a villian; he doesn't seem real. He does not seem like a fully fleshed out person, but is just another example of the showrunners' current modus operandi - shock and awe.

The problem is that for Negan to be 'successful' however you define it, requires everyone to be stupid. I just can't stand 'characters stupid to move plot.' Not to mention that Negan is stupid himself, so the rest have to be borderline lobotimized for the show to work. 

[The Mighty Peanut]

I can't find the one I like, but for those of you who don't know there's a meme going around with various pictures of tigers pooping, and an arrow pointing to the poop with the caption "a savior". 

I just thought it was important to share. 

Edited to add:

 

Edited April 17, 2017 by The Mighty Peanut

[psychoticstate]

I finally watched this last night (the last two epis of the season had been sitting on my DVR for a couple of weeks) and . . . I don't know.  I loved seeing Abe again.  Figured that Sasha would be toast but at least she went out on her own and not killed by Negan or a walker.  Other than smarts, Eugene has always been weak so his desire to stay where he's relevant and feels he will be safe is not surprising.  As others have said, Maggie should be showing quite a bit.  Based on her size, you'd think only a month had gone by since Abe and Glenn were Lucille'd. 

I had a hard time following what was going on in the fight scenes.  How did ANYONE know who to shoot?  Shirts and skins would have made everything easier to follow. How did Shiva know who to attack?  How did Negan not even get a hangnail?   How did Jadis, or whatever that garbage bitch's name is, not get shot?  She was standing in the open, holding a gun on Rick.  How did Rick not get shot?  When all hell broke loose, why didn't Rick beat her ass?  As others have pointed out, I'm not buying for a second that Michonne did not beat the shit out of that blonde garbage woman.   Fucking Rick has really ruined her.

I think the biggest problem with this season has been that there were 4 establishments/bases to keep up with and corresponding residents.  We have Alexandria, Hilltop, the Kingdom and Negan's Sanctuary.  Way too much.  And that's not including cameos at the Garbage Dump and Oceanside.  Maggie should be a major player and she really wasn't seen much.  We went multiple episodes without seeing the core cast; i.e., Rick, Maggie, Michonne, Carl, Daryl, Carol, etc.  Full episodes were wasted on Tara (who was an absolute dipshit letting the Oceanside grandma get the best of her) and Dwight.  Who cares!  

I didn't watch the show from the beginning; I only began really viewing about 2 seasons ago.  But I miss the days of Rick being smart, Michonne, Daryl and Maggie being bad asses and everyone being in the same general place. 

I don't read the comics.  I don't understand how on earth Rick and Company are going to go to war with Negan and actually win - - unless maybe they get Oceanside, all of Oceanside, on board.  But still . . . if Rick is leading and making the decisions, everyone is screwed. 

[Duddette]

10 hours ago, psychoticstate said:

I finally watched this last night (the last two epis of the season had been sitting on my DVR for a couple of weeks) and . . . I don't know.  I loved seeing Abe again.  Figured that Sasha would be toast but at least she went out on her own and not killed by Negan or a walker.  Other than smarts, Eugene has always been weak so his desire to stay where he's relevant and feels he will be safe is not surprising.  As others have said, Maggie should be showing quite a bit.  Based on her size, you'd think only a month had gone by since Abe and Glenn were Lucille'd. 

I had a hard time following what was going on in the fight scenes.  How did ANYONE know who to shoot?  Shirts and skins would have made everything easier to follow. How did Shiva know who to attack?  How did Negan not even get a hangnail?   How did Jadis, or whatever that garbage bitch's name is, not get shot?  She was standing in the open, holding a gun on Rick.  How did Rick not get shot?  When all hell broke loose, why didn't Rick beat her ass?  As others have pointed out, I'm not buying for a second that Michonne did not beat the shit out of that blonde garbage woman.   Fucking Rick has really ruined her.

I think the biggest problem with this season has been that there were 4 establishments/bases to keep up with and corresponding residents.  We have Alexandria, Hilltop, the Kingdom and Negan's Sanctuary.  Way too much.  And that's not including cameos at the Garbage Dump and Oceanside.  Maggie should be a major player and she really wasn't seen much.  We went multiple episodes without seeing the core cast; i.e., Rick, Maggie, Michonne, Carl, Daryl, Carol, etc.  Full episodes were wasted on Tara (who was an absolute dipshit letting the Oceanside grandma get the best of her) and Dwight.  Who cares!  

I didn't watch the show from the beginning; I only began really viewing about 2 seasons ago.  But I miss the days of Rick being smart, Michonne, Daryl and Maggie being bad asses and everyone being in the same general place. 

I don't read the comics.  I don't understand how on earth Rick and Company are going to go to war with Negan and actually win - - unless maybe they get Oceanside, all of Oceanside, on board.  But still . . . if Rick is leading and making the decisions, everyone is screwed. 

It's been less  than a month since Glenn and Abe died. It's only been about 2 weeks, maybe even less. TWD does always do the best job of showing much time has passed. For instance episode 5.11 when they get to Alexandria up to episode 6.09 is only a two week span of time. While 6.10 occurs after a two month time skip.  Getting with Rick hasn't ruined Michonne, they're just trying to turn her into a character that's she not. It's confusing for show only viewers but I can't explain it without spoiling the comics. Hopefully the writers allow Michonne to be herself  instead of this other person next season. Also, part of the reason they choose a woman is because it's more politically correct. They knew that they wanted Michonne brutalized during the fight but there would have been an outcry if it was by the hands of a man. The woman was taller than Michonne  and she looked bulky so it didn't bother me much. It could have been edited better.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Duddette

[Nashville]

On 4/17/2017 at 3:02 PM, psychoticstate said:

How did Jadis, or whatever that garbage bitch's name is, not get shot?  She was standing in the open, holding a gun on Rick.  How did Rick not get shot? 

Er - Rick did get shot.  Jadis shot him in the side, then kicked/pushed Rick off the platform on which they were standing.

[ByTor]

On 4/18/2017 at 2:07 AM, Duddette said:

It's been less  than a month since Glenn and Abe died. It's only been about 2 weeks, maybe even less.

With everything that happened, including some long travel time, I don't find this to be feasible.

[smorbie]

4 hours ago, ByTor said:

With everything that happened, including some long travel time, I don't find this to be feasible.

It is, though.  Travel time on this show varies by necessity.  When Gregory was defecting to the Saviors, he told his lackey to pack a bag because it was a trek, but Rick and gang could walk or roller skate there in less than a day.  Then when they were coming home, they passed the Sanctuary and Paul and Sasha walked back to Hilltop from there.  So....geography is not my best subject and I don't think it's the writers', either.

I let stuff like this go, though, because I'm already buying into the zombie apocalypse notion.  I can suspend a little more disbelief while I am it.  :)

[ByTor]

14 minutes ago, smorbie said:

I let stuff like this go, though, because I'm already buying into the zombie apocalypse notion.  I can suspend a little more disbelief while I am it.  :)

I normally do too, but I find a zombie apocalypse more believable than the timeline...not to mention Maggie's pancake flat stomach! Hell, her pregnant stomach is flatter than my "post pasta" stomach!!! :)

[smorbie]

Since it's been less than a month, the stomach thing is okay with me.  And there is a scene in the finally where she is shown from the side and you can see there's a baby on board.

The thing that makes her flat belly hard to swallow is the size of the baby in the sonogram.

[Nashville]

On 4/15/2017 at 7:27 AM, ghoulina said:

I don't like Negan because he's just too much. He's like a character of a villian; he doesn't seem real. 

Character, or caricature?  My view of JDM's portrayal of Negan generally runs more toward the latter. :)

 

Quote

My favorite villains were Joe (of the Claimers) and Gareth. 

I'm with you on Joe.  As a matter of fact, I didn't initially even view Joe as a villain - more like a chaotically neutral personality, neither good nor evil, who demonstrated a simple survival-born pragmatism taken to the nth degree of extreme.  Through most of his appearances Joe actually demonstrated that he valued basic principles like honesty and fairness - and although Joe's rules regarding transgressions against those principles were brutal, they were also clear and direct.  Nobody had to wonder where they stood with Joe - you knew exactly where you stood.  I could easily see Joe as a representation of what Daryl might have become, had Daryl not crossed paths with CDB.

It wasn't until the Claimers' ambush of Rick/Carl/Michonne that Joe's behavior demonstrated a truly evil bent - and this portrayal irritated me more than a little, because IMHO it demonstrated more than a little violation of the basic tenets of Joe's character.  Sure, Joe might could be considered to have a legitimate beef with Rick; Rick did kill a member of Joe's crew (Lou) after all, and left him to turn.  Michonne and Carl had nothing to do with that, though, so Joe's insistence on raping and killing both of them just to punish Rick violates every sense of fairness previously espoused by Joe, and reduces Joe's entire ethical construct to desire-based rationalizations.  Personally, I thought the character deserved better.

[ShadowSixx]

Gareth IMO is still the best villain WD ever had still. He was just creepy and you know why he turned out the way he did and Andrew West portrayed him very well. Shane was the 2nd best villain even though I see Shane more as a grey character more than a villain. Governor was just too hokey and didn't have that insaneness that the comic book counterpart had. Joe wasn't on long enough for me to care about him just welcomed his death since they were gonna rape and kill Michonne & Carl. Negan is just a laughable sadist.  

[tricknasty]

What is Michonne's last name? Was it mentioned and I missed it? Or is she too bad assed to have one?

[CletusMusashi]

On 4/5/2017 at 8:11 PM, JackONeill said:

Well why did the writers even "give" us Judith?

Wait... Shane was a writer? yeah, I can see that. And apparently Negan is writing most of it now.

[ByTor]

On 4/19/2017 at 4:37 PM, smorbie said:

Since it's been less than a month, the stomach thing is okay with me

Maggie found out she was pregnant when we thought Glenn was dead (dumpster death).  Plus, consider that she more likely than not took a pregnancy test after being late, so she had to have been at least a month pregnant then.  She should be way further along than her belly indicates.

Edited April 21, 2017 by ByTor

[CletusMusashi]

On 4/10/2017 at 6:16 PM, smorbie said:

Well, these are the characters of the show.  It's not like Daryl is going to suddenly take a bath, don a lab coat, snatch up some beakers, and cook up a cure.

Don't be ridiculous. He'd need glasses too. Holy crap the fangirls would go apeshit...

[Nashville]

18 hours ago, ShadowSixx said:

Gareth IMO is still the best villain WD ever had still. He was just creepy and you know why he turned out the way he did and Andrew West portrayed him very well.

I tend to agree, and I think Production really did both the character, the story line, and the fans a disservice by so quickly running through both the Terminus and Termite Lite story lines.

• I don't really blame the writers on this one because considering the minute amount of story time they were given to work with, they did a masterful job of minimalism in painting the Terminus backstory with a bare modicum of scripted brush strokes.
• The evil portrayed by Garett and crew in Terminus was not necessarily vindictive or sadistic; rather, it was disinterested - bureaucratized evil, if you will.  It may have been born of insanity, but the Terminus handling of new arrivals was emotionless, impersonal - an institutionally defined process geared to a specific end, to meet a specific (albeit insane) goal.  Garett and the rest of the Termites treated their assigned tasks with totally clinical detachment.  I recall posting at the time that the way Garett went about his duties (inquiring about reports on rounds expended, etc.) reminded me of nothing so much as a manager of a Starbucks, attempting to account for every coffee bean.  To me this was REAL evil - the community-wide acceptance of the horrible as everyday common workplace activity.

 

Quote

Shane was the 2nd best villain even though I see Shane more as a grey character more than a villain. Governor was just too hokey and didn't have that insaneness that the comic book counterpart had. Joe wasn't on long enough for me to care about him just welcomed his death since they were gonna rape and kill Michonne & Carl. Negan is just a laughable sadist.  

Shane wasn't wicked, just weak and twisted - twisted by:

• The horror of the ZA: seeing every semblance of normality ripped to shreds, seeing survival as requiring rejections of previously inviolate rules of human behavior, and experiencing self-loathing at the ease with which he accepts such abdications of societal rules.
• Guilt: guilt at abandoning Rick in the hospital, guilt at turning his sworn-brother duty to protect Rick's family into a usurpation of Rick's role as Lori's lover and Carl's father, guilt over cowardly sacrificing Otis' life to save his own.

I'd guess that Shane's jealousy of Rick for Rick's wife and son predated the ZA, but pre-ZA Shane would have never acted on those feelings.  Pre-ZA Shane would have been the best Uncle Shane a Carl ever had, and very Southern-gentleman courteous to Lori - other than the occasional feigned-drunk kiss or grope at the annual Christmas party, of course.  And maybe New Years.  And maybe 4th of July.  And pre-ZA Shane would have eventually married someone either identical to - or opposite from - Lori in every way, and they would be divorced within two years because every day after the honeymoon Shane's unlucky bride would sense in Shane a growing dissatisfaction he would never admit to himself, much less discuss with her or anybody else.  

In Shane i see an incredibly strong resemblance to Terminus' Martin.  Absent the ZA, both would have been neighbors you'd be glad to invite over to a cookout or to watch the Sunday football game, and they would never forget to bring some beer.  They'd work side-by-side with you all day in the hot Saturday summer sun rebuilding your deck.  They'd be "good all-around guys" to anybody who gave it a thought - and under their veneer of civility would be a dark personality which would have zero problem with killing a friend or choking a baby if it served their interests.  Shane as a villain is evil with a small "e".

[ShadowSixx]

I believe that Lori added on to his jealousy and his fall into the abyss of insanity. The minute she found out that Rick was alive she gets upset with Shane (even though Shane figured him dead due to what was going on at the hospital with those men walking into the hospital and killing people) and told Shane to stay away from her and Carl. When Shane dismissed Carl, Lori gets upset with Shane for doing that, even though Shane pointed out that he's doing what she's asking of him. Plus Shane was the leader and then Rick comes along and he's basically dethroned as the leader for the group and when he finds out that Lori is pregnant he goes to talk to her about it and Lori tells him no matter what Rick will be the father and Shane will not be a part of Judith's life whatsoever, even if Shane is the father. I think that is the straw that broke Shane's back.

His plans of finally having a family just went down the drain. At that point Shane had nobody, the group no longer trusted him, Rick, Carl, Lori, & Judith were gonna be a family and Shane served no purpose for anyone anymore. He had nothing else to live for so he tried to take it all back by getting rid of Rick. If Shane was alive I believe he would be just like Rick is today. Rick & Shane are kind of one in the same except I do believe that Shane more than likely would have turned Michonne over to the Governor.

Edited April 22, 2017 by ShadowSixx

[Nashville]

11 hours ago, ShadowSixx said:

I believe that Lori added on to his jealousy and his fall into the abyss of insanity. The minute she found out that Rick was alive she gets upset with Shane (even though Shane figured him dead due to what was going on at the hospital with those men walking into the hospital and killing people) and told Shane to stay away from her and Carl. When Shane dismissed Carl, Lori gets upset with Shane for doing that, even though Shane pointed out that he's doing what she's asking of him. Plus Shane was the leader and then Rick comes along and he's basically dethroned as the leader for the group and when he finds out that Lori is pregnant he goes to talk to her about it and Lori tells him no matter what Rick will be the father and Shane will not be a part of Judith's life whatsoever, even if Shane is the father. I think that is the straw that broke Shane's back.

His plans of finally having a family just went down the drain. At that point Shane had nobody, the group no longer trusted him, Rick, Carl, Lori, & Judith were gonna be a family and Shane served no purpose for anyone anymore. He had nothing else to live for so he tried to take it all back by getting rid of Rick. If Shane was alive I believe he would be just like Rick is today. Rick & Shane are kind of one in the same except I do believe that Shane more than likely would have turned Michonne over to the Governor.

This is good stuff, but this probably isn't the place to continue the discussion.  Taking my response to the Shane thread.

[Mu Shu]

On 4/11/2017 at 6:08 PM, AngelaHunter said:

If she's alive, after the Neganites shooting at her with automatic weapons, I will be amazed. Yeah, I know - her survival shouldn't surprise me any more than does Rick's after he was engulfed in walkers.

Silly rabbit.  You can't shoot a CGI tiger!  The bullets go right through with out harming, just like a vampire, or Rick.

[Demig]

On 4/18/2017 at 2:07 AM, Duddette said:

Also, part of the reason they choose a woman is because it's more politically correct.

I disagree somewhat. I think one of the show creators early in the show stated in an interview that we will not be seeing any women being raped and brutalized on this show. I think it was in response to some people saying how come in such a place as the ZA there weren't any rapey  rapes going down. I believe it is a personal choice of his and not him/ them being politically correct. I think he also mentioned something about not wanting to expose his mom to that either cause she watches the show ( I might have made up that last part). But it made me respect the show/runners a lot more and I don't watch with dread waiting for women to be displayed in these usual dehumanized roles.

[Demig]

On 4/21/2017 at 6:27 PM, Nashville said:

I recall posting at the time that the way Garett went about his duties (inquiring about reports on rounds expended, etc.) reminded me of nothing so much as a manager of a Starbucks, attempting to account for every coffee bean.  To me this was REAL evil - the community-wide acceptance of the horrible as everyday common workplace activity.

Yes, I remember you saying this and it made shudder how correct  you were. Plus it made me despise Starbucks even more! Side note, Starbucks uses prison/slave labour to make their cups (I guess that's alright because they give back sooo much to the community).

[smorbie]

On 4/21/2017 at 6:27 PM, Nashville said:

• The horror of the ZA: seeing every semblance of normality ripped to shreds, seeing survival as requiring rejections of previously inviolate rules of human behavior, and experiencing self-loathing at the ease with which he accepts such abdications of societal rules.
• Guilt: guilt at abandoning Rick in the hospital, guilt at turning his sworn-brother duty to protect Rick's family into a usurpation of Rick's role as Lori's lover and Carl's father, guilt over cowardly sacrificing Otis' life to save his own.

I'd guess that Shane's jealousy of Rick for Rick's wife and son predated the ZA, but pre-ZA Shane would have never acted on those feelings.  Pre-ZA Shane would have been the best Uncle Shane a Carl ever had, and very Southern-gentleman courteous to Lori - other than the occasional feigned-drunk kiss or grope at the annual Christmas party, of course.  And maybe New Years.  And maybe 4th of July.  And pre-ZA Shane would have eventually married someone either identical to - or opposite from - Lori in every way, and they would be divorced within two years because every day after the honeymoon Shane's unlucky bride would sense in Shane a growing dissatisfaction he would never admit to himself, much less discuss with her or anybody else.  

Exactly.  I can't tell you how I've been excoriated in the past for my views about Shane.  But I honestly don't see an evil man or a villain.  Shane loved Rick.  But there was all this horror around them every day, and Shane couldn't save Rick from the hospital even though he tried.  So he told a lie to get Lori to leave.  If he hadn't, she would have just nagged and nagged and nagged.  She wouldn't have gone to try to get Rick herself; that's not how Lori rolled.  But she would have refused to leave.  Even at the threat to Coral's life, I think, she would have stayed and nagged at Shane to rescue Rick.

And as far as their affair, Lori was there, too.  She was eagerly going alone with it until Rick's reappearance.  Then she began twisting poor Shane like she was wringing out a washrag.  Stay away from us!  Why aren't you talking to Carl?  Stay away from my son!  I'm sorry, Shane, it must be so hard on you to know I'm pregnant....Stay away from us!  I feel only pity for that poor man.

I could go on, but I think I'll stop there.  In my view, if there was a villain there, it was Lori.

[Nashville]

5 hours ago, smorbie said:

And as far as their affair, Lori was there, too.  She was eagerly going alone with it until Rick's reappearance.  Then she began twisting poor Shane like she was wringing out a washrag.  Stay away from us!  Why aren't you talking to Carl?  Stay away from my son!  I'm sorry, Shane, it must be so hard on you to know I'm pregnant....Stay away from us!  I feel only pity for that poor man.

I could go on, but I think I'll stop there.  In my view, if there was a villain there, it was Lori.

Agreed; Lori would have driven Gandhi freaking batshit to the point of homicide.

[AngelaHunter]

16 hours ago, smorbie said:

 I can't tell you how I've been excoriated in the past for my views about Shane.  But I honestly don't see an evil man or a villain.

I saw him the way you do. Never did I think he was evil. His "evilness" never manifested until Lori instantly cut him dead and started treating him like something to be scraped off the bottom of a shoe. Shane would have saved Rick if he could have. It's not as though he looked at Rick unconscious in the hospital and thought, "Good! I'll leave you here to die so I can start banging your wife and raising your kid. Yay!"  He was human and had human feelings. He was dazed, disbelieving and cut to the quick by Lori's complete and immediate rejection. His hurt came out as anger and rage and I did say once that I didn't even see his "attempted rape" of Lori the same way as most did. Needless to say that was not a popular opinion. To me, it was just a move born of his desperation, frustration and hurt - all things he couldn't or wouldn't express in words -  at the way she could be rolling around in the forest with him one minute and treating him like a pariah the next.

I'm not saying Lori's actions were all coldly calculated or deliberately cruel. Everyone was in a place of off-the-scale stress, fear and panic. She was put in an impossible situation and probably handled it the only way she could see to do it.  I'm not sure there was any way to handle it that wouldn't have created unbearable tension and/or strife.

[Irishmaple]

I gave Shane the benefit of many doubts until he shot Otis. That was cold. After that I side-eyed the hell out of him. I still consider him one of the show's most compelling characters. If only Negan had even a hint of Shane's depth and, while I have liked Jeffrey Dean Morgan in other projects (I sat through The Losers so clearly my bar is low) he could use a jolt of Jon Bernthal's charisma.

[Ohwell]

I'm not gonna lie.  Had I been in Shane's shoes, under those circumstances, I would have shot Otis, too.  I thought that scene was a prime example of the lengths one would go to, to save one's own life.  It was sad, and Shane felt awful about what he did, but he did it for Carl.  If Otis hadn't accidentally shot Carl, he and Shane wouldn't have been in that situation in the first place.   

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, Ohwell said:

I'm not gonna lie.  Had I been in Shane's shoes, under those circumstances, I would have shot Otis, too.

I can't say what I would do in any of the situations the characters find themselves on this show. Would I sacrifice someone to save myself? Maybe, but I don't know, having never had to make such a desperate choice.

5 hours ago, Irishmaple said:

If only Negan had even a hint of Shane's depth

IMO, Shane and Merle were the two most compelling, complex and interesting characters on the show. Too bad they were gotten rid of so soon, while keeping Daryl, who, if I really think about it, has never been interesting in the least.

[Duddette]

On 4/21/2017 at 9:51 AM, tricknasty said:

What is Michonne's last name? Was it mentioned and I missed it? Or is she too bad assed to have one?

She doesn't have a last name in the show of the comics. 

Edited April 27, 2017 by Duddette

[AngelaHunter]

Okay, call me a nit-picky, PITA with no life, but I'm still pissed off at the non-reason why Negan didn't know The Kingdom has a tiger. The writers really don't give a shit for viewers, do they? Either that or they're impossibly young and/or stupid and think we are as well. We're expected to swallow that neither Negan nor a single one of his sycophants has ever set foot in the Kingdom. They go barging and charging into every nook and cranny of other places, but never the Kingdom? Negan just takes His Majesty's word for it that they have only, e.g. 12 cantaloupes for them this week. Negan rightfully trusts the word of no one else, terrorizes Alexandria and Hilltop and steals whatever he likes, but never ever checks up on the Kingdom to see if they're withholding anything, hiding weapons, stockpiling food or other goods?  This, "Oh, but Negan never goes there! Take our word for it." is the best TPTB can come up with? Does the Kingdom have some sort of Star Trek-type force field that repels only Saviors? I can overlook the illogic of so many things here, the silliness of the Garbage people, the other eye-rolling stuff 'n thangs, but not this insulting stupidity.  

[Gobi]

11 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

Okay, call me a nit-picky, PITA with no life, but I'm still pissed off at the non-reason why Negan didn't know The Kingdom has a tiger. The writers really don't give a shit for viewers, do they? Either that or they're impossibly young and/or stupid and think we are as well. We're expected to swallow that neither Negan nor a single one of his sycophants has ever set foot in the Kingdom. They go barging and charging into every nook and cranny of other places, but never the Kingdom? Negan just takes His Majesty's word for it that they have only, e.g. 12 cantaloupes for them this week. Negan rightfully trusts the word of no one else, terrorizes Alexandria and Hilltop and steals whatever he likes, but never ever checks up on the Kingdom to see if they're withholding anything, hiding weapons, stockpiling food or other goods?  This, "Oh, but Negan never goes there! Take our word for it." is the best TPTB can come up with? Does the Kingdom have some sort of Star Trek-type force field that repels only Saviors? I can overlook the illogic of so many things here, the silliness of the Garbage people, the other eye-rolling stuff 'n thangs, but not this insulting stupidity.  

Couldn't agree more. When we were shown the Kingdom residents who had suffered amputations, the implication (or was it stated outright?) was that this was a result of losing a battle against the Saviors. In the only interactions between the Kingdom and the Saviors we saw, there was no indication that the Saviors had any fear of the Kingdom; quite the opposite, in fact. We haven't been shown anything to explain why the Kingdom is treated differently.

[AngelaHunter]

10 hours ago, Gobi said:

In the only interactions between the Kingdom and the Saviors we saw, there was no indication that the Saviors had any fear of the Kingdom; quite the opposite, in fact.

Expecting us to buy that Negan &Co. are - for some bizarre and obscure reason -  so scared of the King and his court jester, etc. when he has no fear of anyone else (and Rick and his gang are much more formidable, IMO) that he would back down and agree to not set foot in the Kingdom is, I feel, the worst example of clumsy plot devices ever seen on this show and that's saying a lot.

If the saviors were too scared to set foot in the Kingdom, wouldn't they also be too frightened to demand their cut of everything the Kingdom has? They didn't seem very frightened at the giving of the cantaloupes. In fact, they seemed the opposite of frightened. But if they did find the Kingdom so terrifying they won't go there, why would they demand stuff from them?

10 hours ago, Gobi said:

We haven't been shown anything to explain why the Kingdom is treated differently.

No, but we should just buy it because that's the only way to explain why Negan was so surprised by Shiva, who somehow has been trained as an attack dog who knows how to zero in on bad guys (but that's a whole other gripe). I guess my level of pissed off-edness is out of proportion to the crime, but I just hate being treated like a frickin' moron.

[smorbie]

On 5/17/2017 at 7:29 AM, Gobi said:

n we were shown the Kingdom residents who had suffered amputations, the implication (or was it stated outright?) was that this was a result of losing a battle against the Saviors

Ezekiel explicitly said the amputations were from trying to take  more territory from the dead (walkers).

18 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

Shiva, who somehow has been trained as an attack dog who knows how to zero in on bad guys (but that's a whole other gripe

CGI tigers are super smart and can smell evil on a person's soul.  Plus, the guy who plays Ezekiel said he was off screen with a laser pointer.

[ByTor]

On 5/16/2017 at 7:37 PM, AngelaHunter said:

Negan just takes His Majesty's word for it that they have only, e.g. 12 cantaloupes for them this week. 

I always looked at it that The Kingdom didn't give them an amount of things they had, but that the Saviors demanded a certain amount, which The Kingdom always delivered (until the cantaloupe incident).

17 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

Expecting us to buy that Negan &Co. are - for some bizarre and obscure reason -  so scared of the King and his court jester, etc. when he has no fear of anyone else (and Rick and his gang are much more formidable, IMO) that he would back down and agree to not set foot in the Kingdom is, I feel, the worst example of clumsy plot devices ever seen on this show and that's saying a lot.

THIS is what I find really hard to believe.  I thought they had some kind of deal in which The Saviors agreed to not enter the Kingdom, but when were the Saviors willing to make deals?

[CletusMusashi]

On 4/21/2017 at 9:51 AM, tricknasty said:

What is Michonne's last name? Was it mentioned and I missed it? Or is she too bad assed to have one?

Until told differently, I'm going to assume her last name is Carver.

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, ByTor said:

 I thought they had some kind of deal in which The Saviors agreed to not enter the Kingdom, but when were the Saviors willing to make deals?

Not only when, but why would they make deals? What could the King possibly have said to make Negan agree he wouldn't set foot on their domain? He must have also have agreed to not even look in their direction, or survey the Kingdom with binoculars to check out the set up and promised to stay at a distance from which a 500lb orange striped cat is not visible. Makes sense I guess. I don't know why this irks me so much, but it does.

 

1 hour ago, smorbie said:

Ezekiel explicitly said the amputations were from trying to take  more territory from the dead (walkers).

I know I've missed things said and done on this show (like the above) because sometimes I zone out with boredom or don't catch some mumbled dialogue and don't want to rewatch but I'm pretty sure I never heard a reason why the Kingdom is off-limits to Negan when no other place is.  Maybe I'm missing more than I think because I still don't know what kind of deal Negan would ever make with the GPK either.

[Boofish]

Perhaps the deal was made without Negan.  Seems to me he only comes out when it's time to do some heavy lifting. Not that it did them any good but technically Rick and his group had bested the Saviours on more than one occasion and he decided they needed to be taught a lesson. The Kingdom had always quietly kept their end of the bargain everyone got back alive with the agreed upon supplies. Negan wants to break Rick and wants his followers to see it happen. He just had no idea who he was dealing with

[smorbie]

4 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Not only when, but why would they make deals? What could the King possibly have said to make Negan agree he wouldn't set foot on their domain? He must have also have agreed to not even look in their direction, or survey the Kingdom with binoculars to check out the set up and promised to stay at a distance from which a 500lb orange striped cat is not visible. Makes sense I guess. I don't know why this irks me so much, but it does.

 

I know I've missed things said and done on this show (like the above) because sometimes I zone out with boredom or don't catch some mumbled dialogue and don't want to rewatch but I'm pretty sure I never heard a reason why the Kingdom is off-limits to Negan when no other place is.  Maybe I'm missing more than I think because I still don't know what kind of deal Negan would ever make with the GPK either.

I know someone said the saviours met members of the kingdom when the kingdom was out somewhere one day.  They reached an agreement where the kingdom would supply them a certain amount and in exchange they would never enter the kingdom.  I got the feeling negan was never made aware of the deal.  Now, I'm not saying it makes sense.  It doesn't make sense to me, either.  But that's not a Gimple problem. That's pure Kirkman right there.

[ByTor]

7 minutes ago, smorbie said:

They reached an agreement where the kingdom would supply them a certain amount and in exchange they would never enter the kingdom.  I got the feeling negan was never made aware of the deal.  Now, I'm not saying it makes sense.

This is what I'm remembering as well, and I'll second you that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense!

Edited May 18, 2017 by ByTor

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, smorbie said:

 They reached an agreement where the kingdom would supply them a certain amount and in exchange they would never enter the kingdom.

Everyone else supplies them with certain amounts, but that doesn't stop their invasions into homes and even bedrooms and the only agreements they seem to make are, "Give us stuff and we won't kill you. For now." No one would make a deal or bargain for stuff they can just take without giving up anything, plus, the Kingdom being so insistant that no Saviors enter would just guarantee them doing so immediately, since they'd think the King was hiding something really good.

 

1 hour ago, smorbie said:

That's pure Kirkman right there.

Why is that not surprising?

I'll shut up now. Just needed to get all that off my chest.

[smorbie]

19 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

20 hours ago, smorbie said:

That's pure Kirkman right there.

Why is that not surprising?

I'll shut up now. Just needed to get all that off my chest.

He can't get out of his own way, can he?