Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Password]

I'm also very curious to see where Oliver and Laurel go seeing as she knows he's the Arrow. She was very all over the place about the Arrow but now that it's Oliver, is she in love with him and always believed he could do it? (Which contradicts what we know) or will Laurel see for the first time she really never knew nor does she know Oliver Queen.

What could possibly make Laurel want Oliver in her life now? I don't think they've been friends properly so I'm guessing that's where it will go.

Edited July 17, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[statsgirl]

 

I'm also very curious to see where Oliver and Laurel go now seeing as she knows he's the Arrow. She was very all over the place about the Arrow but now that it's Oliver is she in love with him and always believed he could so it? (Which contradicts what we know) or will Laurel see for the first time she really never knew nor does she know Oliver now.

This is Laurel we're talking about. The only two times she's ever acknowledged she was wrong was when she finally stopped blaming the Arrow for Tommy's death, and when she apologized to Sara after Oliver gave up on her.

 

I doubt Laurel will ever admit that she never really knew Oliver  I don't even think she'll even say he's changed from the person she knew because she's not the type of person to see her own flaws much less acknowledge them in public. As for wanting him in her life, I'd guess she wants him even more now that she knows he's a  hero.  

 

 

I think that Oliver cheated frequently on Laurel, not only because he was a spoiled, selfish guy before the island, but also because it was his passive aggressive way of getting back at Laurel.  I"m not excusing his cheating, he was still an asshole.  I'm just saying maybe it was partly his way of acting out against Laurel subconsciously.  Before the island, he probably never overtly went against his mother either.

That's an interesting idea.  I assumed that he was a guy who pre-island always took the path of least resistance, possibly because there was nothing he wanted badly enough that he didn't get to actually have to fight for it, so he cheated on Laurel because girls were willing and it was fun to do.

 

When Laurel wanted them to get an apartment together, he may have deliberately picked Sara, as opposed to another girl, to cheat on her with because it was the most likely thing to blow up on him and then Laurel would back down.  Maybe he thought she'd be back when she cooled down, or maybe he didn't care enough if she didn't.

 

@tv echo - that is an interesting theory.. you know, i'm not sure if this is true but.. don't they always say that serial killers and rapers tend to have a more unhealthy child-mother relationship growing up (an over barring mother) and that that affects their inability to control the impulses to rape and kill?(or something like that). i'm not a criminal justice major so i could be wrong.

Don't believe anything you hear on Criminal Minds.  Serial killers (of which there is probably more in one season of US television than there has been in the last century of the country) and rapists often lack the capacity for empathy and more judgement.  (If you want to read a book on it, The Psychopath Within by James Fallon is good.)  I remember back to when the double-bind theory was in vogue and schizophrenia was thought to be caused by bad mothering.  Those poor, poor mothers. 

 

From the Spoiler thread:

I think herein lies an issue that I hope they bring up. Oliver for some reason still seems capable of loving one person and sleeping with another. He did it with Laurel, first season he was so in love with her but still somehow ended up with Shado and later on connecting with Sara. The sleeping with Sara thing caused more issues than the majority issue with Laurel.

 

For me if he knew he had such strong feelings for Felicity then still slept with Sara it makes me think he's an asshole who hasn't changed from pre-island Ollie. He may not cheat anymore but he has zero emotional maturity and turns to sex as a substitute for dealing with his feelings.

 

 

I still think Oliver is able to compartmentalize and have sex separate from love.

 

He wouldn't be the first guy who did.  But I don't think he really loved Laurel in the past when he was cheating on her with 12 different women.  With Shado, it was more connecting to someone he liked and admired rather than being in love with her.  The picture of Laurel seems to have disappeared as soon as he hooked up with Shado.

 

I do think he loves Sara, but not in the way he feels about Felicity.  What is in his favor is that he hesitated when Sara asked if he wanted to 'move in together'.  To do that, let her assume that they're a couple while he has feelings for Felicity, would really be a douche thing to do.

[Sakura12]

Continuing from the spoiler thread since this where it belongs. 

 

I know people think we know more about Sara and her relationships over Felicity. That's true but I'd put it we know slightly more about Sara over Felicity. Which makes sense to me being that we knew two of her family members before we met her, adding the fact that those two are also in the main cast that is the reason we saw her family. They were already there as established characters so of course we'd see them with her. However I really don't feel like we got to know them as a family all that well. We had a couple of flashbacks to show that Sara's family cared about her (like most do) the majority of that flashback was about who else? Oliver. Every Laurel/Sara scenes we saw they were talking about him and nothing else. I don't think Sara said more than a couple of sentences to her mother. She had a couple of scenes with Quentin but again for most of those Oliver was there. Sara had Nyssa and Sin, but I didn't see many scenes with them either. Sin spent more time with Roy and Thea and Sara/Nyssa spent more time fighting other people. 

 

That's why I never saw Sara as the lead as some suggest. Her story revolved around Oliver just like everyone else. The difference was Sara's connected to all three Olivers, fratboy Oliver, island Oliver and present Oliver. Which is more connections than any other character has with him. That's why she was there all the time, but I don't feel we really got to see too much of her other relationships outside of Oliver. 

[dtissagirl]

I don't really subscribe to the Super Sara took over everything theory, but we did see a whole bunch of relationships Sara had with family, friends, and lovers  -- and two of them were mostly developed outside of Oliver: Ivo and Nyssa. And she got flashbacks both in the island/freighter and pre-Gambit. I feel like I know Sara's past pretty well, and I know a lot about people who were important in her life in the past decade.

 

I can't say the same about Felicity, because the show never showed us any relationship she has outside of Team Arrow. And all we know about her past is what she's said in throwaway lines. I'm not even fond of flashbacks or info dumping backstory stuff, but this is a show that relies on backstory and flashbacks to develop its characters, so I would really really love them to give me ANYTHING about Felicity's past -- and not as a random line of dialogue, but an actual scene that shows me stuff, be it a flashback, or a romantic or familial relationship in the present with someone not in the Arrowcave.

[writersblock51]

 

As for wanting him in her life, I'd guess she wants him even more now that she knows he's a  hero.

 

KC has mentioned as much in one of her interviews - something to the effect that Laurel loves him more than ever now.  Shocking!

 

 

...we knew two of her family members before we met her, adding the fact that those two are also in the main cast that is the reason we saw her family. They were already there as established characters so of course we'd see them with her.

True - Sara benefited from having connections to most of the other main characters, as well as Sin.  For her to step in and have much of her story fleshed out (past and present) wasn't going to take a lot of work.

 

And now Sara is connected to Felicity and Diggle as well - so when she returns, there's only a few people who she DOESN'T know or would be in a scene with.

[dtissagirl]

I completely forgot about Sara's relationship with Sin, and that's one of my favorite things that happened on the show. I mean, the flashback to the pilot in the island being Sin's father is probably the most contrived plot device the show ever used, but I'm even fine with it because Sara's friendship with Sin was shown us before we saw the plane crashing. So I can fanwank it that it adds to Sara's development: here's a woman who thinks she lost her soul, but she's looking after her family AND she kept a promise she made to a rando dude 6 years ago AND she could have saved Sin and that was it, but she befriended her.

Now if only they'll give us a crappy Felicity flashback. That's where I am, I'm willing to take a terribly written Felicity flashback over nothing.

[Password]

Now if only they'll give us a crappy Felicity flashback. That's where I am, I'm willing to take a terribly written Felicity flashback over nothing.

 

This is our desperation.

[Moya the Leviathan]

I think there's also another romance trope playing out here - the idea that you can't really be with the one you love For Reasons (in this case, Oliver's life, his terrible history with women, his emotional issues, and his belief that Felicity is much more interested in Barry, given that she's willing to head to another city and sit by the guy's bedside even though he's in a coma) so you try to find comfort with Someone Else only it Never Works Out.

If I ever get the nerve to post a fanfic, I am totally titling it "For Reasons - The Init Caps Guide to Rom Com"

[wingster55]

I don't see why Felicity and Laurel can't be cordial or even friends. 

I never got the sense that Laurel ever treated Felicity so poorly..just because she didn't kiss her ass? 

[Velocity23]

No its because Laurel she treated Felicity & also Diggle like they were beneath her. So no i don't want Laurel anywhere near Felicity. And i think Diggle would agree. 

And i think i will forever be annoyed with Kc with that interview with EW and said she would leave her dog with Diggle when going out of town. Like he is some kind of dog sitter. 

Edited July 19, 2014 by Velocity23

[wingster55]

I never got that sense. When she asked (note: asked, not demanded) to speak alone to Oliver. 

Pretty sure that was a joke. Heaven forbid she make one

[Velocity23]

It was also when she said that she could have Felicity's job after her lawyer thingy wasn't working out for her. She should have made a better joke then. And KC talking how Laurel could so take on Felicity with no problem on one of her cons, is not something that will make me like her or the character she plays. 

Edited July 19, 2014 by Velocity23

[doesntworkonwood]

I think that they could be cordial to one another, but I don't think that they could ever be friends. They seem to have very little in common, very opposite and incompatible personalities, and in every interaction up until now, they haven't been friendly towards each other. 

 

Admittedly, I think that part of my bias towards them not having a friendship may also be partly due to the fact that Felicity's only seen friends being women who have slept with Oliver really grosses me out, and I really believe that Felicity deserves her own friends, who have nothing to do with Oliver. 

[wingster55]

It was also when she said that she could have Felicity's job after her lawyer thingy wasn't working out for her. She should have made a better joke then. And KC talking how Laurel could so take on Felicity with no problem on one of her cons, is not something that will make me like her or the character she plays.

 

I laughed and I prefer Felicity. Seems the problem is that no one is allowed to say anything negative about Felicity. 

[Velocity23]

Where did you hear that. I hear plenty of negative stuff about her. Or do you mean on the show? Felicity isn't everyones cup of tea and that is ok. But then she also wasn't pimped by the EP as the bravest, bestest thing on the whole wide world either. And we never actually see it on TV. I think that is one of the things that hurts the character of Laurel. And that nothing ever sticks with her. She doesn't struggle with killing a person even in self defense, the blackmailing thing will probably never be mentioned again. I am not even gonna go into detail about the addiction storyline because it was a waste of time. The way Laurel is being portrayed i don't want to see a friendship with Felicity, she has Joanna and Sara she can interact. I don't see the need for Felicity to be Laurels friend, because i fear it will become all about Laurel. 

 

I heard plenty of times that Felicity is only a comic relief, she is useless since she cant fight, she is apparently childish, she is weak ...

[formerlyfreedom]

Okay, that's enough. Agree to disagree and move on, please.

[Sakura12]

What skills does Laurel even have? Besides blackmailing. We have never seen her be that great of Lawyer without the Arrow's help. She gets a big case handed to her that she shouldn't have even legally been on. Then they gave all the best and most useful traits of the Black Canary (including adding forensic/science knowledge) to Sara. 

 

Felicity may not know how to fight, but she's much more useful than Laurel. Her tech skills is what is helping Team Arrow find the people they need to find. I still wish that the ToD was more about Felicity being upset that someone was a better hacker than her then it being about Sara being a ninja scientist. Finding her mojo at the end and defeating the Clock King with his own tech would've been more powerful me and she would not have had to take a bullet for anyone either. I would understand the getting her own scar thing if they were using to show us that it's dangerous out there for Felicity to have no training and it's time for her to get some training, but that wasn't the case. The bullet was there so Felicity could feel important and part of the action team. Why she would want to be part of the I have horrible scars from the horrible things that were done to me and I've done to others Team, I have no idea. 

[statsgirl]

 

Why she would want to be part of the I have horrible scars from the horrible things that were done to me and I've done to others Team, I have no idea.

Given how smart she is, and how much she babbles, and her father abandoning her,  I can see Felicity growing up as the girl who was on the outside, who would look over at the 'in crowd' and wish that she could somehow join them and be popular too, if only for a little while.  With Team Arrow, she probably felt that at last she belonged.  As long as it was Diggle and Oliver who were fighting and taking scars, both big, muscular and male, she could compartmentalize the team -- the men fighting, herself at the computers. But then Sara came and she was fighting alongside the men and trading scars with them and it made Felicity feel left out again.  That's probably why she put on an exercise outfit and started to beat up the punching bag till Oliver came down and disapproved of it.  (It still makes me want to smack him.)

 

You're right, Sakura12, that being upset about someone else being a better hacker would have made a better story.  I think the writers wanted to show that Felicity was jealous of Sara not because she was sleeping with Oliver but because she was more useful in the Arrow cave and they handled it clumsily.

[BkWurm1]

she put on an exercise outfit and started to beat up the punching bag till Oliver came down and disapproved of it.  (It still makes me want to smack him.)

 

 

To be fair, by the time Oliver came down and did his "What are you wearing?" freak out, Felicity had stepped away from the exercise equipment so I can just barely understand why he would react with a huge huh to how she was dressed. 

 

You're right, Sakura12, that being upset about someone else being a better hacker would have made a better story.  I think the writers wanted to show that Felicity was jealous of Sara not because she was sleeping with Oliver but because she was more useful in the Arrow cave and they handled it clumsily.

 

She was though upset that she'd been out hacked. 

 

With Sara I think she was feeling a bit left out since the guys and Sara were all bonding over something she couldn't relate to and since Sara was good in multiple areas, I think that inspired Felicity to try to expand her abilities or at least step out of her comfort zone.  I think that was what the sudden zeal for training was about.  Not that she was trying to be as good as the rest of the team, just that she wanted to be allowed to be a part of the training.  

 

So she's dealing with the change to the vibe in the lair and not being the only go to answer man and then on top of all that is the challenge to her hacker status, the one thing she thought she had wholly in her favor.  I really think it wasn't about Sara at that point but about the hacker issue and Sara was only a part of it because Sara continued to be the standard of "perfect" in what Sara could do while Felicity was facing a major blow to what she could bring to the team. 

 

I do wish they had played up Felicity being proud of her exploding cell phone and out hacking the hacker in the end instead of just focusing on the scar and belonging to the group, but I like to think that her ego with her hacking abilities was easily restored, probably already fixed when she set the trap at the bank and figured out she could monitor it on site (since the arrow cave would have been a long time away from functioning)  So by the time she blew the phone, she didn't need to boost her ego re the computer stuff so fitting in and belonging was at that moment a bigger deal. 

 

I think that makes sense. 

[Ceylon5]

So it intrigued me how little Laurel and Felicity have interacted up to this point, because it’s actually going to be quite weird to have them in scenes together more often, now that Laurel is in the know.  I just feel like that will be really uncomfortable, so I went back and found all their scenes that I could think of (let me know if I’ve missed any), to get a clearer picture of how they’ve related thus far.  It’s pretty interesting (excuse the long post):

 

S01E21 – Meet (cute on Felicity’s part, not so much on Laurel’s):
Oliver & Laurel are talking in the bar at Verdant (about her relationship with Tommy).  Felicity bursts in.
Felicity: Oliver, I need to show you what… (sees Laurel).  I just totally walked in on a thing, didn’t I?
Laurel:  I’m sorry, who are you?
Felicity:  Nobody.  I mean, I’m not nobody, I’m someone, obviously.  And so are you.  You’re Laurel, right? (She looks questioningly at Oliver.)  That Laurel.  Gorgeous Laurel.
Oliver (hurriedly interrupting):  This is Felicity.  She’s setting up my internet.
Felicity:  Router.
[Laurel’s expression at this moment is hilarious.  Her face is all sorts of supercilious, disbelieving and generally displeased.  Presumably she doesn’t believe Oliver’s lie (we all know that’s not his strong suit), and thinks that he’s sleeping with Felicity or something (though why that would be an issue, given that she’s with Tommy, I don’t know – perhaps it’s just a knee-jerk response from his old cheating days).  Anyway, she’s not pleased.]
Felicity:  And I need to show Oliver something very important related to it.
Laurel (to Oliver, still not amused):  I’ll let you go then.

 

[NOTE:  It was also in this episode that Felicity meets Moira & Thea (in the hospital with Walter).  Moira also said “I’m sorry, who are you?”  and again, Oliver responded for her with “This is Felicity.  She’s my friend.”]

 

S02E04 – At some work party, Felicity is talking to Oliver when Blood and Laurel interrupt them.  Laurel greets Oliver, but everyone ignores Felicity like she doesn’t exist, so she leaves.  A little while later, Felicity sees Laurel talking to Oliver and suddenly realises something about the “woman in the mask”, so she interrupts them:
Felicity: Um, excuse me, Oliver, may I talk to you for a second?  It’s urgent.
Oliver: Yeah.
Felicity (to Laurel): You can have him back in a minute.
Laurel gives her one of her little up-and-down Looks.
Oliver (to Laurel):  Excuse us.
She leaves.

 

S02E12 – Laurel is in her Drunk Phase.  She’s come to Verdant and Thea has called Oliver to help deal with her.
Laurel (to Thea): Fine.  Bar me from your bar.  That’s tonight’s theme, isn’t it?  Disbarment.
Oliver: Laurel, have you been disbarred?
Laurel: Yeah, it looks like my law career is over.  You know what, maybe Thea here can hire me as a waitress.  Or, Ollie, I could come be your secretary, but that would mean you would have to fire her (pointing at Felicity, who has just walked up behind Oliver).
Felicity:  Hi, Laurel.  How are you?
Laurel ignores her.

 

S2E21 In the Arrowcave:
Laurel (to Oliver):  Slade Wilson.  He told me who you were.
Oliver:  Did he hurt you?
Laurel: No.  He was trying to hurt you.  And when you went missing, I reached out to your partners (looks at Diggle, not Felicity).  They told me what you were planning on doing.
Oliver:  It’s what I have to do.
Laurel (to Felicity & Diggle):  Will you give us a moment?
They look hesitant, but leave.
Later, in the Arrowcave, the others are all getting ready for action and being useful.  Laurel is standing about feeling like a spare part.
Laurel (to Oliver):  I’m coming too.
Oliver:  No, you’re not.
Laurel:  Felicity can give me a radio.  I’ll just be your eyes and your ears.  I’ll stay out of your way, I promise.  Nothing will happen to me.
Oliver:  What if it did?  Slade’s men one-on-one are nearly impossible to stop.  I need you to trust me and I need you to be safe.
Laurel:  But not them?
Oliver:  This started with the 3 of us.  It’s time we got back to that.
They leave.

 

S2E22 Diggle & Felicity drive up to Laurel & Oliver
Diggle:  You okay?
Laurel:  Yeah.
Oliver:  You?
Felicity: Isabel attacked Dig, so I hit her with the van.
[Team Arrow then discusses the cure that Felicity arranged with Star Labs; Laurel & Oliver argue about what Laurel should do next and then they go their separate ways, without Laurel and Felicity interacting at all.]

 

Other than being held by Slade together (again no interaction, and they both had other things on their minds) in the finale, they had no further scenes together.

 

So, to sum up:  Laurel has never actually greeted Felicity or called her by her name (other than once, indirectly, when she was talking to Oliver).  In their few very brief interactions, she’s said only the following directly to Felicity: “I’m sorry, who are you?” and “Will you give us a moment.”  On two occasions she ignored Felicity like she didn’t exist or wasn’t important enough to warrant her wasting words on her.

 

I’m not entirely sure what the writers were trying to convey with these Laurel-Felicity interactions, but to me it looked like Laurel had NO time for Felicity; that she actually found her presence distasteful.  So, even given her character inconsistencies, there isn’t exactly a strong foundation for her to now be all sweetness and light towards Felicity (especially after the whole “woman Oliver loves” thing in the finale).  I can’t see them turning around more than a year of her treating Felicity like the nobody she introduced herself as and making them suddenly become friends.  Felicity is too smart for that (or should be, if the writers don’t screw it up).  She started out all sweet and bubbly towards “Gorgeous Laurel”, but quickly caught the vibes and backed off.  I highly doubt Felicity will see any great benefit in being friends with Laurel after all that.  Strained politeness, sure, but actual warmth (from either of them) would be hard to sell at this point.  Which means we should be getting some (more) awkward scenes with these two.  Ditto goes for Laurel and Diggle, given that Diggle is NOT a fan of hers.  Tension in the Arrowcave, coming to screens near you...

[tv echo]

Wow, really thorough, Ceylon5!

 

Here is an interesting and insightful analysis by a non-shipper of several relationships on the show - Lauriver, Olicity, Tommy/Laurel and Oliver/Laurel/Tommy - as well as a great analysis of how Diggle and Felicity make Oliver more redeemable, while Laurel has no one to make her more redeemable (I found out about this analysis at www.oliverandfelicity.com, so credit goes to that website for the link):

 

Arrow: Lauriver and Olicity

http://seeyouaroundtiger.tumblr.com/post/86947478424/arrow-lauriver-and-olicity

 

(I don't think this has been posted before - I don't recall reading it before.)

Edited July 20, 2014 by tv echo

[Luckylyn]

I'm convinced that like Isabel, Laurel assumes that Felicity and Oliver are secretly sleeping together and that colors her opinion of Felicity because of Oliver's reputation as a man whore.  I think given Oliver's history it's hard for people to believe he could be just friends with a woman.  The weird thing is that she's holding Oliver's past against Felicity while not judging Oliver for possibly sleeping with an employee. 

 

I think more could have been done with the rumor that Felicity and Oliver are seeing each other.  We never got to see Felicity react to that gossip or see if it effects her.  Are her old friends in the IT department treating her differently?  I imagine they would be confused about why Felicity would be an EA rather than continue in the field of her expertise.  Would they  see it as confirmation of the rumors?  I just need them to let her have one non-Oliver connected friend to have these types of conversations with.

[dtissagirl]

Really great analysis of Felicity's journey/development in how she came to believe in Oliver's misson, and then to believe in Oliver himself -- and how Oliver also evolved because of her influence: http://mystarsandmyocean.tumblr.com/post/90834127690/felicity-smoak-is-a-person-not-a-light

 

It fits pretty well with that discussion we had a few weeks ago about Felicity putting the mask on Oliver in the end of Three Ghosts -- the analysis poses that scene was just as much about her as it was about him. ITA.

[wingster55]

But it shouldn't have been. IMO

[statsgirl]

I think that it makes it more interesting if other characters grow and develop, not just the show's lead.

 

You could also write an arc about how Diggle comes to believe in Oliver too, going from scepticism about this rich, shallow playboy, to beginning admiration when he stops China White at Laurel's apartment, to rejecting joining him when he finds out Oliver's secret, to signing on to protect Oliver from himself to finally believing in Oliver as a hero.  But that was in season 1, and Oliver's move to becoming a hero was in season 2 along following Felicity's belief in him.

 

Arrow: Lauriver and Olicity
http://seeyouaroundtiger.tumblr.com/post/86947478424/arrow-lauriver-and-olicity

 

I'm always interested to read things by someone who is not a shipper because they see things differently.

Oliver and Laurel’s relationship: was terribly constructed, poorly written because it was overwritten and cliche. The canvas was too busy.

Oliver and Felicity’s relationship: was never supposed to be anything and THAT (and of course Amell and Rickards chemistry) is why it works. A blank canvas that with one stroke of the brush brings electricity.

 

That's an interesting idea.  Oliver and Laurel's relationship was laden with baggage, comic book baggage as well as backstory baggage, whereas with Oliver and Felicity, they were free to create whatever fit the characters and the actors.

 

It occurred to me that Felicity was supposed to be the Arrow equivalent of the police IT expert that Quentin used to play back the footage from the stairwell camera and who appeared in a number of episodes before a mirakuru soldier killed him. Does anyone remember that guy?  Without EBR, Felicity Smoak would have been that kind of occasional character.

Then they have a second scene, a great follow up which is overlooked because the first scene knocked people out. I’m all about symbolism. Oliver is seated a little below, just a little lower than Felicity at the computer. And thus the STORY begins. Oliver becomes human. Rootable. Relatable. Something which was sorely lacking. He no longer needs to narrate for us (thank goodness they dropped that). He is no longer at this unattainable level the fans just can’t reach. Because of his relationship with Felicity (and Diggle which is key) there is this unexpected, spontaneous unraveling of a dynamic, a relationship unfolding which the fans are desperately chasing. Where his struggle, his conflict, his inability to truly connect and let people in because of what he’s been through becomes real.

 

The show was supposed to focus on Oliver/Tommy/Laurel as all the promotions and interviews were initially describing. Although Tommy had some kick. They both dulled Oliver’s character rather than harnessed.

 

 

I think that's a big reason why Team Arrow because the heart and the core of the show. Diggle and later Felicity make the stiff, manpain Oliver into a vulnerable, relatable character.   That Oliver is someone you understand and care about, unlike the closed-off untouchable Oliver who worked alone in the first episodes.  Diggle and Felicity also help by giving Oliver comrades he can bounce ideas and actions off of, unlike the static voice-overs of the early episodes.  TV is an active medium and there's a reason why almost all cop/investigative shows have teams rather than just one protagonist.

 

Felicity and Diggle harnessed Oliver’s character and developed the story, the setting, the meaning of it all. Diggle, in my opinion is just as funny as Felicity, and just as necessary. He throws out and delivers one liners that just slay me. It’s the combination of Diggle the war hero and Felicity the IT girl thrown into a whole new world that elevates Oliver. His heroism, his leadership is portrayed to us through their eyes, through their loyalty to him, through his interactions, his feelings, his protection of them. He remains the protagonist as it’s his story of a hero that we are following, his mission, his goal, his (never ending) secrets and mysteries revealed to us through flashback. But they individually become just as important while still maintaining Oliver at the center. Tommy and Laurel were fragmented and distant from Oliver, it was the only way the story could be told but it made it unworkable for fans to come behind their “friendships”

Another good point. It makes me wonder if the show could have worked even half as well without Diggle and Felicity.

 

There is lots more about Oliver's relationships with Laurel and Felicity but I don't want this post to be too long.  One final thought:

 

As for Oliver/Laurel let it die so Laurel can live that’s what is most important. 

Oliver/Laurel was holding back Oliver.  It didn't occur to me because I tend to block Laurel out but for Laurel's own sake too, I think the EPs need to let go of Lauriver and see what Laurel can be without it.

[dtissagirl]

Oh, definitely. Not only Felicity and Diggle made it so the audience could better relate to Oliver, but they also improved the narrative structure ten-fold. TV needs dialog, and protagonists need antagonists -- even if it is someone to bounce ideas off of on screen -- the audience is not supposed to be the antagonist. It's even trickier with this kind of story where someone is leading a double life, because they're also lying to EVERY OTHER CHARACTER all the time, and it's like the burden of truth lies solely with the audience. And, well, it's not like we can talk back. Protagonists can carry secrets alone in books; on tv they're almost obligated to tell the truth to at least one other person.

Nikita had the exact same problem Arrow had when it started -- she worked alone and talked to the audience via voiceover. It was just as isolating and off-putting as it was on Arrow. Really glad both shows quickly realized their leads needed to speak truth to other characters instead of to me.

Edited July 21, 2014 by dancingnancy

[wonderwall]

This probably the most shipper-y I will get:

 

I have decided that a bad date between Oliver and Felicity isn't necessarily a bad thing. Oliver has never had a bad date before because he's always been that smooth operating playboy. But now it's different because Oliver is a changed man. This is different because Felicity is a whole new ballgame and on a whole 'nother level because he realizes that once he's with Felicity, there's no turning back, no screwing up, no nothing. So maybe that's what makes the date bad? Because Oliver is nervous and just becomes unusually spastic?

 

Can you imagine Digg's reaction towards this? I bet he would be laughing and shaking his head at the both of them :')

 

Or maybe the date ends out terribly because of the villain of the week? Who knows. I just hope that the writers don't end it all by making Oliver/Felicity realize their's nothing there and they're better off being friends/partners. 

Edited July 25, 2014 by wonderwall

[wonderwall]

Just a fleeting thought:

 

I think The Arrow is made up of three people instead of just Oliver because the Arrow wouldn't exist without the latter two. While Oliver is the persona and the one who dons the hood, he couldn't have created this persona without Felicity and Digg who work just as tirelessly as Oliver. Felicity and Digg put just as much on the line (their lives, their safety, etc.) in order to make the Arrow successful because the Arrow is a part of them as well. So yeah, if the show is about the Arrow (meaning Oliver), then it should be just as much about Felicity and Digg. Okay maybe not just as much, but more than the other characters like Sara, Laurel, Thea, etc. who've all been more fleshed out than the core of the show which is quite frustrating. 

[BkWurm1]

There is no way they could convince me that there is nothing there. The chemistry between their characters cannot be helped. ;) the most they can do is operate in a state of denial.

I like where your mind has gone as to the weight and importance of the date making Oliver nervous.

[apinknightmare]

Oliver and Felicity might decide to end things in-show because they're better off as friends, but

TPTB not only brought in Ray Palmer as a LI for Felicity and mentioned that he's a personal (in addition to business) rival for Oliver, but they also said that the O/F relationship would be a season-long arc, so I doubt it ends with the date. Plus, given that MG said Felicity tells Oliver she's had worse dates leads me to believe that the date is interrupted by a big bad or some kind of crisis, not because it's not going well between them.  

Edited July 25, 2014 by apinknightmare

[icandigit]

I've been loving the post I've been reading about when folks think O/F fell in love. Here's one

http://stilettoroyalty.tumblr.com/post/92511027494/when-did-oliver-felicity-fall-in-love-while-you-were

[wonderwall]

I can totally see Felicity saying "This wasn't even my worst date!" and then proceed to tell Oliver all the gory details about it so he stops feeling bad about said bad date and actually makes him laugh/smile :') 

 

God dammit I'm too invested in these two. 

[pootlus]

Part of me is wondering if they'll be able to keep the magic going if they do get together.  Not because of the 'Moonlighting Curse', which I think is bullshit - but because I don't trust the writers.

[doesntworkonwood]

Just to add, here is a sort of analysis on the Moonlighting Curse and the way that it would 'affect' Oliver/Felicity.

[tv echo]

I agree that there is no "Moonlighting Curse" - just bad writing.  As that analysis points out, lots of shows have a couple get together and still maintain a successful show.  If the main mythology of the show isn't the romance, then the romance can continue indefinitely.  It'll just be part of the show - like the hero's sidekicks and friends.  

[twoods]

Got into this show during the hiatus with season 2, and finally starting season one and really surprised at how much I like Laurel and Tommy. They have good chemistry together and right now (just up to the Christmas episode) Laurel isn't a bitch. I'm sure it's more because I just love Tommy but I don't get why they pushed. Laurel and Oliver so much season 1 when Tommy and Laurel seemed to have "it."

[statsgirl]

I agree.  You can do one, maybe two seasons focusing on just one person but for a show to have legs, a team always provides more material. You can look at the characters individually, in pairs, or as a larger grouping.

 

I think one of the reason the original Team Arrow O/D/F works so well is because they never lie to each other.  Diggle lies to Carly and various other people when he needs to like his ex commander, Felicity lies about how she spends her nights and Oliver lies to just about everyone but they never lie to each other, although Oliver has tried but Diggle and Felicity catch him out.

[statsgirl]

I've been loving the post I've been reading about when folks think O/F fell in love. Here's one

http://stilettoroyalty.tumblr.com/post/92511027494/when-did-oliver-felicity-fall-in-love-while-you-were

If you take away all the stuff about Laurel and Black Canary and just look at Oliver's relationship with Felicity, it really is one of the better-written relationships on TV, hitting all the beats from interest to trust to friendship to loyalty to more. 

 

Just to add, here is a sort of analysis on the Moonlighting Curse and the way that it would 'affect' Oliver/Felicity.

In the end, TV is a business.  It's a good article analyzing the relationship from that angle.

[BkWurm1]

I was a kid,  but I remember watching Moonlighting the season of the big hook up and the problem was that there was nothing between the two characters except old will they or won't they tension from a couple seasons earlier.   In the later seasons the show had kind of had them off doing their own thing with other people (or at least that's what I remember from thirty years ago)

 

Then when they put them together it was just a sex thing but the sex scene was more about all the crap they broke as they very un-sexily crashed around on the floor than their great love.  After vowing never to do it again and then they did it again for a contrived reason (Were you on birth control?  Yes.  Oh, had I known that I really would have been able to just let go and enjoy it more.- I'm not making this crap up!!!  ) and though it was played as supposedly a passionate encounter in the backseat of a car, I remember thinking it seemed paint by the numbers,  more than a bit ridiculous, overacted and there just was no heart to it.

 

I think that's the real Moonlighting curse, not making your couple likable together.  They have to grow together and more than anything, I think if they've been a will they or won't they kind of couple, they show has to have proved that they like or at least deeply respect the other person and that is NOT what I remember from Moonlighting.  And isn't there a rule about being together making them a better person (or at least striving for it?)  I remember them being static, not really changed or impacted by the other person.  It felt pointless. 

 

Of course I was a big Remington Steele fan and Moonlighting which came on a year later kind of stole Remington Steele's thunder (and some of it's basic premises since one of RS's writers went on to create Moonlighting)  so I might have been holding a grudge.  One I feel rather vindicated about now since mentioning Moonlighting is about as welcome in TV circles as saying the name of that Scottish Play is for the theater.     

Edited July 27, 2014 by BkWurm1

[wonderwall]

I think Larry King is a secret shipper: 

I literally laughed so loud reading this :p

[Morrigan2575]

Omg, that's hysterical.

[writersblock51]

I think Larry King (or whoever handles his twitter account) is flashing back to his interview with SA when the Olicity thing was mentioned.  he nearly choked on his beverage when SA said Felicity wasn't his girlfriend.

[catrox14]

Thinking about how some aren't convinced that this was a natural progression to Olicity and that the ILU was not enough, I think it was established in State v Queen how strongly he felt about Felicity because of how readily he fled the trial when he knew she was threatened and then how quickly he killed the Count (RIP) for her...and the words "There was never a choice to make" IMO was the capper.

 

ETA: I also think part of why he was so shaken when he went back to court was how frightened he was that Felicity's life was in danger and he was freaked out about how easy it was for him to kill again because her life was threatened. That's how I've always read those scenes 

Edited July 29, 2014 by catrox14

[Starfish35]

State vs Queen is the closest I've ever gotten to really being an Olicity shipper, because the scenes between them in that episode... :)

That is not to say that I'm anti-Olicity at all. I've just always been kind of neutral on the subject. But they really did get to me in that episode.

[Sakura12]

It's the same for me. I don't hate Olicity, SA and EBR have tons of chemistry. If they get together great, if they don't, oh well. Doesn't matter to me either way. I don't ship characters. 

[wingster55]

I may need to rewatch season 2. I'm honestly blanking on that right now

[Happy Harpy]

Thinking about how some aren't convinced that this was a natural progression to Olicity and that the ILU was not enough, I think it was established in State v Queen how strongly he felt about Felicity because of how readily he fled the trial when he knew she was threatened and then how quickly he killed the Count (RIP) for her...and the words "There was never a choice to make" IMO was the capper.

I find this progression all the more natural because something similar already happened in S1. Remember Helena's return?

Oliver was going all Gandhi in his response, at Diggle's deep annoyance, but when she went after Felicity? It changed in "Damn straight, I'm taking down that bitch".

 

It's the moment I thought that the relationship between Oliver and Felicity could turn romantic at some point -moreover, in TV land, "confused with girlfriend" = mega-anvil; but I remember how I appreciated that no interpretation was forced on the viewer in the scene where he found her in this episode. Maybe, aside from the chemistry, that's why Oliver/Felicity works for -it seems- so many people: The writers established a relationship between the characters that works in absolute and gives a solid basis to a believable (show not tell) romantic one, while making the latter appealing (trust, respect).

[wonderwall]

Hopefully the writers don't make Oliver say, "I've been in love with you ever since Russia" because it seriously undermines his feelings for Felicity because it was right after that where he actually slept with Sara, wanted to move in with her and help her etc.

 

I didn't like it when they made sweeping statements for for Laurel (the I know you in my bones speech, and I've been in love with you for half my life speech) and I certainly won't appreciate it if they do it for Felicity. I hope they take extra care in letting the audience know that while Oliver did care for her back then, he didn't really understand what he was feeling until the season finale or maybe after that. I hope they don't undermine the friendship that they built in season one by claiming that Oliver loved her all along and blah blah blah. I want a natural progression to their story and while I think it's great that they're going on a date, I feel like them telling each other that they love one another is a bit unearned on both of their parts. 

 

This is actually what makes me nervous for Oliver/Felicity...

Edited July 29, 2014 by wonderwall

[Password]

Hopefully the writers don't make Oliver say, "I've been in love with you ever since Russia" because it seriously undermines his feelings for Felicity because it was right after that where he actually slept with Sara, wanted to move in with her and help her etc.

I didn't like it when they made sweeping statements for for Laurel (the I know you in my bones speech, and I've been in love with you for half my life speech) and I certainly won't appreciate it if they do it for Felicity. I hope they take extra care in letting the audience know that while Oliver did care for her back then, he didn't really understand what he was feeling until the season finale or maybe after that. I hope they don't undermine the friendship that they built in season one by claiming that Oliver loved her all along and blah blah blah. I want a natural progression to their story and while I think it's great that they're going on a date, I feel like them telling each other that they love one another is a bit unearned on both of their parts.

This is actually what makes me nervous for Oliver/Felicity...

That's how I feel too. To me it seemed he may have realised he had one or two more than plantonic feelings for her after the ILY. If he knew he had such strong feelings and went right ahead and got into a relationship with Sara what does that tell us about him?

I've always thought he ignores his feelings for Felicity because reasons but the ILY would have been the wake up call to make him see her.

I look forward to their honest talk, but they need to tread carefully.

Edited July 29, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[blixie]

 

Of course I was a big Remington Steele fan and Moonlighting which came on a year later kind of stole Remington Steele's thunder (and some of it's basic premises since one of RS's writers went on to create Moonlighting)  so I might have been holding a grudge.

 

Seriously and Remington Steele succeeded in portraying a romance/mystery show for it's five year duration, which was a pretty good run in the 80's, then it mostly ended because Brosnan desperately wanted to be the big screen Bond rather than a small screen facsimile (both it and Moonlighting were created by Glenn Gordon Caron).

 

I just realized that's why I love Olicity, that they're "partnership" and romantic vibe is so similar a smart investigative woman, paired with a pretty pretty man playing the role of hero. Now I can't say Felicity Smoak is Laura  Holt, sigh few female characters are as kickass as Laura Holt, but she's as close as CW genre show can come to her, while Ollie is a lot more hardcore then Remington, he often seems as shallow and boneheaded. 

 

I totally get why Oliver/Felicity situation presents more challenges to carrying on a romantic relationship, but as important as it was to show Oliver evolving from mercenary/murderous Vigilante to thoughtful/righteous hero,I also like that he's evolving from a callous clueless player to a man who is (hopefully) essentially True Blue to one woman: Felicity.