Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[foreverevolving]

(granted, you have to imagine Laurel being played by someone not Katie Cassidy)

That's what I keep on saying. Because you know what? While the storyline they gave us isn't the "ideal TV love storyline" it's actually a very refreshing take on love stories- you don't have many love stories the way it was supposed to be between Laurel and Oliver, it's usually the "start from scratch- first meeting" love thing, rather than "there's history, even bad history" storyline. Which is why when you take this kind of big risk you have to make sure your casting is perfect!

They fucked up with KC. I know it's shitty of me, but having watched a similar storyline on a different TV show I know 100% that if Laurel was played by someone competent to portray and show us the complexity of emotions that was raging inside Laurel for five years, things could have gone differently.

The couple from the story line i was referring to above are Doug and Carol on ER, they had the exact same history (which we never got to see cause no flashbacks) as Laurel and Oliver, minus the sister swapping thing. And yet because the actors were able to show us, the audience, a wide range of emotions, that despite that painful and shitty history those two truly did like, cared, knew "in their bones" and were still deeply in love with each other, they were able to push one another (even when they were not aware they were doing it) to change and grow as a person. Why? Again the actors. It is the actors job to take the lifeless words on the paper and bring the character to life on the screen.

On paper the character of Laurel Lance on Arrow is actually pretty amazing, however the execution of her by Katie Cassidy is..... Shitty. Which is why, as nasty as it is (and it makes me feel bad because sisterhood and all of that) i will forever put the blame on the awfulness that LL on several people:

the casting director who casted her to begin with- but you know sometimes an actor does rise for the occasions and becomes better as the show progresses (case point Stephen).

The ep's for not recasting Laurel after the pilot they could have just reshot here scenes - "Charmed" did it when they recast the role of Phoebe.

And lastly, at the end of the day, KC herself for not doing her job. For not realizing that something isn't working and it's time to change tactic and adjust to the story line. I do put most of the blame on her, because it's her job as the actress to realize if the way she's acting isn't working (such as when 85% of the fandom freaking hates your character when she's supposed to be loved) and change. Also the mark of a good actor is to realize as they are reading the script, reading lines for a character they have been playing for two years, is to realize when their character (the one they should know better than even the writers) is saying so stupid and inquire about it. While I imagine writers are not crazy about it, it is not unheard of for an actor to improvise while on set, or request to try something out - most directors would allow it (especially if the actor is a regular cast member or a big enough name or has the balls/tits to ask) for a take or two. I know it's 20/20 but if I were in KC shoes I can't see myself not wanting to change that "in my bones" line, not scrape it, just change it a bit- rework it to fucking make sense with the fact that up until a few days ago she had no idea he was the freakin Arrow. so yea honey you didn't know him in your bones.

And that was my rant for the day, I'm just blah over that character. I'm also blah over KC seemingly lack of respect for her profession. And whatever I'm moody cause there's no episode tonight,

Edited January 15, 2015 by foreverevolving

[statsgirl]

Good point about Doug and Carol being an iconic couple that the show started in the middle of their relationship with. Actually it wasn't supposed to be the middle, Carol was supposed to die not just attempt suicide but they liked her so much they kept the character alive.  But yeah, better written and acted.

 

I think the initial notes for Laurel Lance are for a potentially great character.  The writing, not so much, not ever really. Other than being a lawyer at CNRI, have we ever actually seen her do anything to help the weak or downtrodden?  And even at CNRI she could be very nasty to people.

 

I've never been totally clear. The 10 girls that Sara references - she didn't say "he's cheated on you ten times that we know of". So I was never sure whether we were supposed to assume those were while he was with Laurel or not.

 

If Oliver had slept with them before he was with Laurel, why were they an issue?   There are probably a lot of rich 22 year old playboys who have slept with 10 women, but there's no reason they can't settle down when they meet the love of their life.  Look at Warren Beatty.  The fact that Oliver was with Laurel and still sleeping with other women was the deal breaker.

 

Plus we know that he cheated on her with Babymama while they were in a relationship (because Moira thought it was Laurel who was pregnant), and was planning to cheat on her with Sara.  Those facts rather suggest that he was a serial cheater rather than a serial monogamist.

Edited January 15, 2015 by statsgirl

[dtissagirl]

Smallville is the dumbest show ever , but even they managed to tackle the Oliver Queen: Cheater Dumbass storyline better. They spent the entirety of season 8 having their Oliver in a romance arc that was basically the same: Oliver cheated on Tess, she was so pissed she went to work for the ~enemy, but he still wanted her back and so they played all sorts of power/sex/billionaire CEOs of competing companies games. And it was extremely funtimes to watch solely because Justin Hartley and Cassidy Freeman had great chemistry. I mean, I knew they were doomed, but Tess' M.O. for dealing with Oliver was LOL NO YOU FOOL IMMA GONNA DESTROY YOU FOR WHAT YOU PUT ME THROUGH, and it was glorious.

[Sakura12]

The big difference there is Tess was awesome, Laurel has never and IMO will never be awesome. 

 

Tess is another character that got crapped on with ever changing storylines and I still loved her. Smallville for all it's faults did manage to cast the right people for their roles (most of the time). I give a lot of credit to the actresses though, Cassidy Freeman and Allison Mack managed to create strong women characters despite the writers trying to bring them down with stupid storylines. 

 

Because of them, I put a lot blame on the actor when the character is not working over the writers. Maybe I should blame the casting director for that screw up with the screw up with KC. But I'm still not sure if she was cast because the CW wanted her and the casting director had no say in the matter. 

[ohjoy]

Sleeping with 10 girls and Laurel ignoring it because she wants to marry Oliver Queen was the death of her; Oliver going taking Sara after he'd got a girl pregnant was the death of him.

THIS. Pretty much sums up how the writing assassinated two characters at once. Oliver got redemption because that's supposed to be the crux of the show; since they apparently want Laurel to be at the same stage as Oliver and belatedly realized she was far from it, It looks like significant portions of the redemption process she should have to endure are being skipped to get her up to speed.

[Danny Franks]

I think the thing with a lot of relationships that a show drops you into the middle of, it's easy enough to come up with a coherent and viable 'pre-show' timeline for them. For the likes of Doug/Carol (who I never liked anyway) or Tim/Lyla on FNL, you can imagine how they first met or first got together, or whether one love the other from afar. With Oliver/Laurel, you can't. Because it doesn't make sense.

 

They knew each other at school, but weren't together. Or were they? Was Oliver interested in Sara? Where does McKenna fit in? Was he with Laurel for years before they were talking about moving in together at the age of 21? Who was the girl in the paparazzi video in the pilot? The one Oliver had his hands all over? How old was Sara when she went to that party to try and hook up with him? How old was Oliver? None of it makes sense, because the writers have indeed tried to make the Oliver/Laurel romance a 'we grew up together' story, yet also want Oliver to be the womaniser that they can throw into bed with any female guest star who appears.

[looptab]

Yeah, I don't think that was meant to imply that he cheated on her with ten different people, just that they both knew of ten girls he'd slept with and who knows how many others. 

Maybe that specific dialogue wasn't meant to imply that, but other bits of information about them do suggest it.  In the season 1 pre-Gambit flashback Laurel is pushing for them to move in together because they've been together longer than their friends, so that would mean he did cheat on her with who knows how many girls.

But I understand how someone would not have the same take, since, as I said in my earlier post, the info about them is confusing, to say the least, and contradictory. 

Edited January 15, 2015 by looptab

[Minneapple]

I think their biggest mistake was setting up Oliver and Laurel with a pre-existing history (and a terrible one at that). It would have been so much better if they met down the line. But, really, I don't know what they were thinking with the sister swapping. I mean, have them have a good relationship before the boat, and then have them struggle when he returns because he is clearly a different man and can't tell her about it. Or anything, really, would have been better than that, gah!

There were times I didn't mind the shared history, like when Ollie and McKenna had the double date with Laurel and Tommy, and Oliver and Tommy had the little exchange about how glad they were that Laurel wasn't cooking. I liked moments like that, that made it obvious those three grew up together and knew each other only the way best friends who grew up together can know each other. There were a couple other little moments like that too, but yes. Mostly it was lost in the absurd sister-swapping. First making Sara the man-stealer, then turning the narrative when they needed Sara to be the good one.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Minneapple

[Pyramid]

For me the problems with and O/L relationship begins and ends with the lack of chemistry. Every other problem spins off from that.

The throwing everything at the Laurel character to see what sticks was because she wasn't a viable love interest. The flashbacks that painted her in a bad light (grassing up Sara and getting her grounded, etc) was again because no chemistry meant they had to rewrite all their plans for her. So now they've wasted two and a half seasons trying to make her relevant and now we have the omnishambles of her as Black Canary.
OQ/SA gets away with the lack of chemistry because a)it's his show, ii) the fluke of Felicity and 3) he can act (ooh bitchy!)

 

Basically, as was said above, they should've reshot the pilot with a new actress (Alona Tal or the lass that played Cupid, or anyone else really)  as soon as the lack of chemistry became apparent. 

[apinknightmare]

Maybe that specific dialogue wasn't meant to imply that, but other bits of information about them do suggest it.  In the season 1 pre-Gambit flashback Laurel is pushing for them to move in together because they've been together longer than their friends, so that would mean he did cheat on her with who knows how many girls.

But I understand how someone would not have the same take, since, as I said in my earlier post, the info about them is confusing, to say the least, and contradictory. 

 

Yeah, I know he cheated on her (obviously, he knocked someone up), I wasn't trying to imply that he didn't. All I was saying is that the dialogue in that scene doesn't indicate that he a) cheated on her with ten people/ten times or that b) she knew that he was doing it at that point. She just knew he was promiscuous at one point in their lives (and seemed to be in denial about his tendencies).

Edited January 15, 2015 by apinknightmare

[patchwork]

I really like the idea of Laurel being just as irresponsible and fun loving as pre-Island Oliver and Tommy, everything would make so much more sense if she didn't take their relationship seriously either. They'd go out, have fun, usually hook up then carry on with their separate lives- him at the college of the moment and her doing the bare minimum to stay in hers.

 

Then she's told about the Queen's Gambit and Sara being there with Oliver.

 

It changes everything, the party girl has to step up and look after her parents who are falling apart. She finds refuge from the gossip and the stares in the library, she can't hear them whispering if she concentrates on the lecture and her grades steadily improve. CNRI isn't the big mega bucks job she dreamed of but she starts to find it rewarding in other ways. Tommy goes from BFF to someone she rarely sees and barely thinks about.

 

Then Oliver comes back and every bit of anger and resentment she's smothered comes bubbling to the surface. Tommy tries to play peace-maker, as he used to when the were younger, but they start falling for each other instead. They fall in love and it's his death that pushes Laurel down the Black Canary path. 

 

Laurel/Oliver remains the OTP of the show, the idea of her is what helped Oliver keep going when all he wanted to do was give up but there's too much baggage for their romance to be rushed. It's a process, they'll get there eventually. 

[looptab]

Yeah, I know he cheated on her (obviously, he knocked someone up), I wasn't trying to imply that he didn't. All I was saying is that the dialogue in that scene doesn't indicate that he a) cheated on her with ten people/ten times or that b) she knew that he was doing it at that point. She just knew he was promiscuous at one point in their lives (and seemed to be in denial about his tendencies).

I know you weren't trying to imply he didn't cheat on her :) What I meant is, while that specific scene didn't indicate the things you listed, the previous info do indicate them: if  they've been together forever (as Laurel said) and if we have Sara at that point reminding her of all the girls he slept with (to which Laurel doesn't react  as if it were news) the logical assumption is that he cheated on her numerous times and she was aware of it, but apparently in denial. At least in my opinion :)

[apinknightmare]

I know you weren't trying to imply he didn't cheat on her :) What I meant is, while that specific scene didn't indicate the things you listed, the previous info do indicate them: if they've been together forever (as Laurel said) and if we have Sara at that point reminding her of all the girls he slept with (to which Laurel doesn't react as if it were news) the logical assumption is that he cheated on her numerous times and she was aware of it, but apparently in denial. At least in my opinion :)

Yeah, I wish there was a way to clear up their actual dating history but I guess there isn't really a way to do it without making it seem that she's a doormat/out to marry him for his name or money. If they're on again/off again, she looks delusional for thinking he'll settle down with her and for thinking their relationship is more serious than it is, and if they were actually together "forever" non-stop and she knew he'd been with these other women and she wants to marry him anyway, she looks either incredibly naive or like a gold digger.

It's a no-win situation.

[dtissagirl]

The 10 girls conversation made me think Sara was being vague about these girls on purpose, because she was already hooking up with Oliver behind Laurel's back. His texts pestering her to go on the trip with him also add to my suspicion. Sara was warning Laurel about elusive girls while meaning "your boyfriend is sleeping with ME, and wants ME to go on a month long sexcapade with him and you want to live with him?" But then Laurel snapped, and Sara had no impulse control whatsoever, and said yes to the trip in retaliation because Worst Sisterly Relationship EVER.

[Danny Franks]

The 10 girls conversation made me think Sara was being vague about these girls on purpose, because she was already hooking up with Oliver behind Laurel's back. His texts pestering her to go on the trip with him also add to my suspicion. Sara was warning Laurel about elusive girls while meaning "your boyfriend is sleeping with ME, and wants ME to go on a month long sexcapade with him and you want to live with him?" But then Laurel snapped, and Sara had no impulse control whatsoever, and said yes to the trip in retaliation because Worst Sisterly Relationship EVER.

 

Oh, I think there was definitely something going on with Oliver and Sara prior to that flashback. I can't imagine that their first time getting together would be planned in advance as a trip away together. Seems too cold, even for pre-Island Oliver. I imagine it was something that had happened a few times, and each time Sara said she felt terrible and Laurel would kill her, and Oliver would talk her down. But the more you think about the Oliver/Laurel relationship, the worse it appears to be. I don't know why writers think this sort of dysfunctional, destructive behaviour is supposed to be attractive.

 

So Sara was screwing Oliver behind Laurel's back, and presumably Laurel couldn't find out because the fact it was Sara would be too much for her to accept. That he was cheating cannot have been a surprise.

[Sakura12]

I'm not interested in the beginning of Oliver/Laurel as much as when did Oliver and Sara start having their affair? As Danny Franks said it had to start up before the Gambit trip, you don't take someone you never been with on a month long cruise. Sara and Oliver had to have been together for little bit. With those two it's entirely possible it was sex. Plus Sara just seemed more fun to hang out with. Laurel just seemed way too serious for playboy Oliver. 

 

I could see Oliver visiting Sara at college and partying with her. The EP's have also said that Sara has hooked up with women prior to Nyssa. Pre-Island Oliver would've loved that. 

[bethy]

At the same time, though, Oliver and Sara were both impulsive, party, don't-think-about-the-consequences people at the time. I can see them having hooked up once or twice and having known each other most of their lives, Oliver saying, "Come on a cruise with me!"  And Sara, pissed at Laurel, taking him up on it. 

[Ariah]

It seemed to me that Sara was always interested in Oliver. There was this one conversation where it was stated that Laurel had called the cops on Sara when she knew she was hooking up with Oliver - before Oliver and Laurel were an item. Laurel was 20 at the time, so it puts the date at 2005, a year before Gambit went down.

 

Granted, it was probably the writers retconing their grand mistake, but it is now canon.

 

Sara looked like a party girl and I guess she did experiment a bit in college. But somehow I think she had a kind of connection with Oliver, be it pre- and post island. I think they understood eachother better than Laurel could ever understand Oliver.

Now each time Oliver says something like "Sara would never want that" I believe him. Whereas Laurel has been taking terrible decisions in her sister's name.

[dtissagirl]

Even in S1, Dinah says when she caught Sara packing for the trip, that Sara said she was in love with Oliver. Which I don't doubt -- they reiterated it with the "I liked you first but Laurel knew it and cockblocked me" talk -- but all this tells me is that here are two seemingly smart women who had an AWFUL relationship with each other, because of a douchey douche who douched.

And it was even more frustrating to watch because I realize Sara and Oliver were being legit assholes to Laurel, but I ended up siding with them thanks to the fact I'm incapable of seeing Laurel as a real character, for reasons external to the narrative.

I'm so glad this mess is over and done, tbh. Please let the show never ever ever mention any of this happened, ever again. The omen of Baby Mama is already looming, and that's already annoying enough.

[KirkB]

Yeah, the back story left me confused too. Originally, I thought Oliver was with Laurel and then started cheating on her with Sara. But then they did some flashbacks which made it seem like Oliver and Sara might have had a thing (not a serious thing, given those two) and that Laurel became jealous and swooped in to take Oliver away from her sister. I got the feeling Laurel saw Oliver as a trophy. Oliver, meanwhile, was having fun with Sara so he invited her on the boat instead of Laurel, though I wonder why he stayed with Laurel at all and didn't just flat out dump her for Sara like I'm sure he's done plenty of times in the past. Only the scenes on the island (with the picture) made it seem like he really was in love with Laurel, even though he seemed to focus more on Sara and Shado. Basically, from the start nothing about Oliver and Laurel has ever made sense to me.

[Ariah]

 though I wonder why he stayed with Laurel at all and didn't just flat out dump her for Sara like I'm sure he's done plenty of times in the past.

Well, perhaps Laurel was just riddiculously good in bed.

It happens.

And the shallow and self-centered pre-island Oliver just couldn't resist going back to her. But still kept his options open and shopped around.

[Happy Harpy]

 

though I wonder why he stayed with Laurel at all and didn't just flat out dump her for Sara like I'm sure he's done plenty of times in the past.

Imo, Moira is the answer. Moira approved of Oliver's relationship with Laurel. In that way, I think that douche Oliver and "I'll be Mrs Oliver Queen" Laurel had something in common: they were a "trophy" for each other, or the one they thought they should be with to be a good son or a good girl.

Two sisters was already a bit too crowded for a One True Love, but Oliver's reluctance to choose between the sisters, by way of "your sister will never know", sealed the deal for both O/L and O/S in my eyes even beyond the gross factor. I believe that he cared for each of them, and even believed himself in love with each of them at different points of his life but at the end of the day, it only means imo that he was just not that into any of them.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[looptab]

About the dinner from Hell, MG gave this fantastic non-answer:

Okay, so now that we know that you guys have the right to veto everything, can I just ask that why did you think it was necessary for Oliver to burn Laurel to the ground in the hallway scene (2.14), even though it was him, who got back together with her sister, and even accompanied her to the family dinner in that episode? I can't look at this from an angle where this makes sense to me, because I think Laurel's reaction was completely justified? The scene was acted out brilliantly all the same.

I think the answer is in your question.  We suspected it would be brilliantly acted, so we tacted towards that direction:  What would give us the best and most dramatic scene?

So..ok, I guess?!

Edited January 15, 2015 by looptab

[Sakura12]

I knew that whole scene was to set up a big scene for Laurel/Cassidy. That is why it didn't upset me at all. It was a pointless scene to manufacture drama. 

Edited January 15, 2015 by Sakura12

[KirkB]

So, let me get this straight. Did he basically just admit they had to go out of their way to get an well acted, emotional scene from Katie?

[calliope1975]

And yet somehow, SA was the better performer, and I felt more for him in that scene even though logically, I knew that Laurel was in the right. 

[doesntworkonwood]

So he's saying that the scene was put in there for acting reasons? By 'best and dramatic scenes' what did he mean? Do they only write for drama? Can we extrapolate to say that means just for plot? Is he admitting that the entire sequence was contrived? Because that's what it felt like to me...

[Chaser]

I am a little amused with his answers regarding Laurel and Oliver's relationship. The question above was character question but his answer was all about the acting. There was an earlier question about why Laurel didn't get a good-bye from Oliver. The asker really stressed how she thought they weren't respecting the Laurel and Oliver's relationship and her importance in his life. Instead of addresses the askers grievance, he answer went to practical reasons.

[Danny Franks]

Well, perhaps Laurel was just riddiculously good in bed.

It happens.

And the shallow and self-centered pre-island Oliver just couldn't resist going back to her. But still kept his options open and shopped around.

 

I can't imagine Laurel would have been better in bed than Sara. Even in the flashbacks, Laurel seemed stuck up and prim, while Sara had a more earthy, fun quality that I think any young guy would gravitate to. And if she did swing both ways, then so much the better. As to why Oliver stayed with Laurel? It was expected, and easy because she let him cheat. I guess. But I doubt the writers would phrase it that way.

[statsgirl]

People who are self-absorbed are rarely good in bed because it's about their own satisfaction, not their partners.  On the other hand, I can believe that Laurel did something that other girls wouldn't do in order to keep Oliver going out with her.  (And now I'm thinking about threesomes with Tommy, or maybe another girl since she wasn't surprised Oliver was cheating.)

 

We suspected it would be brilliantly acted

His definition and mine of "brilliantly acted" differ, but it's interesting that they feel they had to make everyone else in the episode OOC to get a good performance from KC.

 

I don't think Laurel and Sara's relationship was bad because Oliver was a douche.  It seems like the bad pre-dated Oliver because otherwise why would Laurel get her sister (who she would have loved) grounded because Sara had a crush on the guy Laurel wanted. That seems rather over-the-top.

Yeah, I wish there was a way to clear up their actual dating history but I guess there isn't really a way to do it without making it seem that she's a doormat/out to marry him for his name or money. If they're on again/off again, she looks delusional for thinking he'll settle down with her and for thinking their relationship is more serious than it is, and if they were actually together "forever" non-stop and she knew he'd been with these other women and she wants to marry him anyway, she looks either incredibly naive or like a gold digger.

 

The only way to fix this would be for Laurel to address it directly but I doubt they will.  Bad plotting all around?  Or another case of upping the OOC to get a good performance?

So Sara was screwing Oliver behind Laurel's back, and presumably Laurel couldn't find out because the fact it was Sara would be too much for her to accept. That he was cheating cannot have been a surprise.

 

I love it.  Even Moira ended up getting fed up with Robert's cheating, but for Laurel it would have been okay if not for it being Sara?

 

Also a nice parallel to not telling Quentin about Sara because he would be too upset.

 

Sara looked like a party girl and I guess she did experiment a bit in college. But somehow I think she had a kind of connection with Oliver, be it pre- and post island. I think they understood eachother better than Laurel could ever understand Oliver.

Now each time Oliver says something like "Sara would never want that" I believe him. Whereas Laurel has been taking terrible decisions in her sister's name.

This is another Fail at writing Laurel and Oliver's relationship. A good coupling fits together, they have things in common but enough differences to make it dramatically interesting (e.g. Castle and Beckett who both love weird sci and good wine).  Past Oliver had selfishness and history in common with Laurel, Present Oliver has only history.

Edited January 15, 2015 by statsgirl

[TanyaKay]

From the Laurel Lance Thread:
 

She [Felicity] could still have been on the show in a recurring role in small doses like she was before the joined the Team but if Laurel was going to remain Oliver's love interest, they would want to keep Felicity and her chemistry far away from him.

 

I think they had every plan of keeping Laurel as the main Love Interest in season 1 but they still brought Felicity on as a team member as early as 1x14 because they needed someone with her skills to take the team forward in future missions.
Felicity might not have become a love interest if they had cast another actress for LL as speculated by people here on the forum, but she would've become part of Team Arrow.

[BkWurm1]

I recall them saying they got a note for the network after screening the pilot that they needed to do something to make the tech side more realistic since Oliver Queen stranded on an island 5 years shouldn't have picked up mad programing skills.  Enter Felicity.  EBR has said she was hired as a one off with the option of reoccurring so yeah, I think the producers were already looking for that extra team member.  If Felicity hadn't jelled, we probably would have been introduced to other specialists until one clicked.   

[foreverevolving]

 For the likes of Doug/Carol (who I never liked anyway) 

 

May I ask what it was that turned you off from them?

it's always interesting to hear from someone who didn't ship them (I don't encounter many of those)

 

There was an earlier question about why Laurel didn't get a good-bye from Oliver. The asker really stressed how she thought they weren't respecting the Laurel and Oliver's relationship and her importance in his life. Instead of addresses the askers grievance, he answer went to practical reasons.

 

justified reasons to be exact. I saw no reason for him to say goodbye to Laurel. And with the way she has been acting- searching for revenge- giving her even a sniff of why he was going off to fight Ra's... sometimes ignorance is bliss (such as Laurel choosing to be ignorant about Ollie cheating on her).

 

People who are self-absorbed are rarely good in bed because it's about their own satisfaction, not their partners.  On the other hand, I can believe that Laurel did something that other girls wouldn't do in order to keep Oliver going out with her.  (And now I'm thinking about threesomes with Tommy, or maybe another girl since she wasn't surprised Oliver was cheating.)

 

I'm blind! I'm blind! oh god my mind eye just went blind from that image of a O/T/L threesome.

The only threesome Tommy is allowed to be on is a Smoaking Billionaires threesome.

[statsgirl]

Hey, I love Smoaking Billionaires too.  But I can see O/L/T in the past as they experiment.  It might also have given Laurel a distaste for Tommy if she thought he was a sub there.

 

I'm not MG's biggest fan but I agree with him there -- there is no way that scene could have been written without getting into the reasons for Oliver bidding Laurel good-bye, and that would have changed the episode entirely, if for no other reason than Laurel would have been justified in demanding Oliver do something about Thea and Merlyn instead of sacrificing himself to Ra's..

 

 

I recall them saying they got a note for the network after screening the pilot that they needed to do something to make the tech side more realistic since Oliver Queen stranded on an island 5 years shouldn't have picked up mad programing skills.  Enter Felicity.  EBR has said she was hired as a one off with the option of reoccurring so yeah, I think the producers were already looking for that extra team member.  If Felicity hadn't jelled, we probably would have been introduced to other specialists until one clicked.   

I think if she hadn't jellied, they would have kept looking for another IT specialist. But I also think EBR jellied a bit too much with SA.  If I were the EP and really wanted the Oliver/Laurel OTP to stay, I would have kept her on the sidelines working from QC rather than brought her into the lair itself, especially since Laurel wasn't going to be there herself for another season. I would have been afraid of another Clark/Chloe fandom division, and I can't see the show wanting that, the current shippers wars are bad enough.

 

The fact that her name 'Felicity Smoak' was supposed to be just an Easter egg argues that they didn't mean for her to become as important to the team as she did.

Edited January 16, 2015 by statsgirl

[KirkB]

Oh irony. Oliver and Laurel were supposed to be the big couple of the show, yet they apparently didn't bother to check Amell and Cassidy's chemistry and it came back to bite them. Oliver and Felicity were probably not meant to be anything more than business/vigilante partners, but Amell and Rickards ended up with a chemistry even the EP's could not ignore. 

[statsgirl]

I think it's not just the chemistry though.  IMO, EBR works harder in her scenes than KC does and I think it translates to the audience understanding the character better. It's not enough to feel the emotions, you have to be able to get the audience to feel and understand them and that requires working out the moves and facial expression and timing.  It's like SA, who is three completely different people in past, present and Arrow present, and different again in his scenes with Thea than when he was with a character he doesn't love deeply or is angry at.

 

The scene in The Calm when Oliver finally asks Felicity if she wants to go on a date with him. EBR says "yes..yes" and then gives a little nod to emphasize it even more.  Or the scene in The Undertaking when Laurel first meets Felicity.  KC doesn't show much emotion when Felicity interrups but EBR is active and stumbling and talking with her hands.

[Starfish35]

One of the interesting things about this whole mess is that I think I've only ever seen one other show (Numb3rs) change the love interest for the lead character and not write the former love interest out (I'm talking full change, not temporary roadblock type love interests). Keeping Laurel around as ostensible female lead while moving the role of romantic lead to Felicity has, I think, definitely created some issues for them.

[TanyaKay]

One of the interesting things about this whole mess is that I think I've only ever seen one other show (Numb3rs) change the love interest for the lead character and not write the former love interest out (I'm talking full change, not temporary roadblock type love interests). Keeping Laurel around as ostensible female lead while moving the role of romantic lead to Felicity has, I think, definitely created some issues for them.

Another CW show just did that. In The 100, the character Finn was supposed to be the love interest of the protagonist Clarke and the lead actor. Turned out other characters were far more popular (he was not half as bad LL) so they conveniently killed him in second season's mid season finale. Changing directions is not that uncommon. Here, they are just burdened with comic history which makes it impossible for them to kill anyone with a name from comics.

Another show that changed directions was Gossip Girl but that is not a good example because it was horrible in the end.

Edited January 16, 2015 by TanyaKay

[Starfish35]

No, changing directions is not uncommon, but keeping the original love interest around after the show's changed direction IS uncommon, at least in my experience. I don't watch The 100, but according to what you said, that show just killed off their original love interest, so that would fit the normal pattern.

But as you say, the problem here is the comic book history. Laurel would probably be long gone if her name was not Dinah Laurel Lance.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Starfish35

[BkWurm1]

In The 100, the character Finn was supposed to be the love interest of the protagonist Clarke and the lead actor. Turned out other characters were far more popular (he was not half as bad LL) so they conveniently killed him in second season's mid season finale.

 

And now I'm playing in my head the Laurel as Finn scenario.  What are the chances she'll massacre an unarmed village of old people, kids and women and Oliver will have to  knife her in the heart rather than let her burn alive for her crimes?  

Edited January 16, 2015 by BkWurm1

[olicityfan25]

lmfao that Oliver/Laurel scene in 2x14 was orchestrated for dramatic reasons. They can't even organically argue with each other on this show. It seems like everything with them is orchestrated. Felicity and Oliver are organic.

[Oscirus]

Other then the fact that it was Oliver and not Sara who had that showdown with Laurel ( which wasn't even that much of a burn when you consider the fact that she still left and apologized to Sara at her own convenience. Which, as it was written, is something that Laurel would've done anyway) is the fact that Dinah got off easy. Dinah could've put a stop to that nonsense when she caught Sara but she didn't and then she compounded that crap by abandoning her family yet Quentin is seemingly the person that gets the majority of Laurel's scorn for some reason.

 

Back on topic, sorry olicity fans but I don't think that Oliver can move on until he resolves the situation with Laurel. That dinner scene was merely a Band-Aid and it's starting to peel off now that we can assume that Laurel and Oliver will be working closer together. That's going to be such an annoying love triangle too.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Oscirus

[BkWurm1]

Back on topic, sorry olicity fans but I don't think that Oliver can move on until he resolves the situation with Laurel. That dinner scene was merely a Band-Aid and it's starting to peel off now that we can assume that Laurel and Oliver will be working closer together. That's going to be such an annoying love triangle too.

 

Even KC is saying that Laurel isn't interested in a relationship, that it's not where her head is.  Add to that SA's renewed statement that his heart is only about Felicity, I just don't feel like they are setting up any kind of triangle, at least not with Laurel. I do expect them to keep playing the Ray card, but I expect Laurel to work more closely with Roy than Oliver.  You can't have BC be the GA's side kick and that's all she qualifies as (hey, let's just pretend she qualifies). 

[calliope1975]

Back on topic, sorry olicity fans but I don't think that Oliver can move on until he resolves the situation with Laurel. That dinner scene was merely a Band-Aid and it's starting to peel off now that we can assume that Laurel and Oliver will be working closer together. That's going to be such an annoying love triangle too.

 

I think trying to do a love triangle with Felicity, Oliver, and Laurel might backfire spectacularly. It doesn't mean they won't do it, but I don't see how it could work. SA has no heat with Laurel. His face during that recent interview when it's mentioned that Oliver still loves Laurel is fantastic. It's clear that he believes Oliver has moved on. 

 

I actually took that hallway scene as an official end to Laurel and Oliver. That and "the lunge." The barely existent Ray/Felicity/Oliver triangle doesn't seem to be going over too well, so there'd have to be a damn good reason for Laurel and Oliver to ever look at each other romantically for me to remotely buy that. Especially after/if Oliver and Felicity were to finally get together. 

 

I do think Laurel and Oliver might need to take a good look at what their relationship was and wasn't. She doesn't even know about the kid yet, and I'm sure that will stir up a bunch of feelings. Mostly anger and disappointment, but that seems to be Laurel's default.

Edited January 16, 2015 by calliope1975

[Starfish35]

Back on topic, sorry olicity fans but I don't think that Oliver can move on until he resolves the situation with Laurel.

What situation with Laurel? There is no situation with Laurel. It is a dead situation. Dead, gone, buried, over, the end, nevermore quoth the raven nevermore.

And I'm not an Olicity shipper, so that's not shipper bias saying that.

I'm not totally ruling out TPTB pulling the zombie from the grave at some future date, but right now it is a dead ship. Nothing to resolve.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Starfish35

[Oscirus]

Even KC is saying that Laurel isn't interested in a relationship, that it's not where her head is.  Add to that SA's renewed statement that his heart is only about Felicity, I just don't feel like they are setting up any kind of triangle, at least not with Laurel

 

As of this moment, no, they're not into one another.  However, I do suspect that they're heading that way.  This is working off an assumption so I could be way off, but if Laurel and Oliver train together, I'm seventy-five percent sure that something will happen.  He pretty much cant control himself around the women he trains. Add to that the fact that Oliver" I'm done chasing after you" Queen is doing just that by begging both her and Ted to not train her and I'd say that there appears to be some unresolved feelings there that he doesn't even realize yet.

 

I actually took that hallway scene as an official end to Laurel and Oliver. That and "the lunge."

 

I don't know. To me it seemed that the end of season two left some a big hints that things weren't over between those two. Laurel being the one to finally convince him to fight Slade. Maybe that was just there to prop up Laurel, but it seems like a strange way to do it if that was the case.

 

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that Laurel and Oliver will get back together again, I'm just saying that they need to resolve it one way or the other before it starts to become an issue.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Oscirus

[wonderwall]

IDK I feel like they've already had closure. Here are a couple of moments and reasons why I think they're dead. Forever dead: 

 

• When Laurel told Oliver at the cemetery that they betrayed Tommy and could never be anything more
• When Oliver slept with Sara again
• When he blew up at Laurel in her hallway
• When Laurel gave Oliver relationship advice and tried to help him fix things with Sara
• How he barely interacted with her throughout season 2
• When he didn't even think about Laurel and protecting her when Slade came back
• The entire 'Blind Spot' episode
• Not believing in Laurel about Blood but Felicity of all people, did
• When Slade took Laurel but Oliver didn't really panic and said the city came first
• When Oliver told Felicity that Slade took the wrong woman
• How Sara told Oliver that he needs to find someone who can harness the light inside him then there was that image of him where light enveloped Felicity while she was hugging Oliver not to mention the light after that kiss
• When he thought that he could have a life outside the foundry he didn't think about going after Laurel, he asked out Felicity.
• How he didn't even think to say goodbye to her before he left to challenge Ra's
• How she wasn't even in his last thoughts
• When the writers decided that it was Felicity who was the driving force (along with Diggle) in making Oliver the man he is today and not Laurel
• When the writers decided to link Felicity to Oliver's humanity and not Laurel

 

How many times does the show have to tell the audience that it's over? I for one think that the aforementioned moments are enough for me :) I mean, Oliver cares for Laurel, but he's not in love with her and I feel like that's been pretty clear. 

Edited January 16, 2015 by wonderwall

[NoWayOut]

Add to that the fact that Oliver" I'm done chasing after you" Queen is doing just that by begging both her and Ted to not train her and I'd say that there appears to be some unresolved feelings there that he doesn't even realize yet.

 

There were posts elsewhere after the episode aired saying Oliver was jealous that Ted was training Laurel and that's why he wanted them to stop. IMO, there weren't any underlying feelings or jealousy in his request. I could see that scene playing out in a similar fashion had Nyssa or Lyla been the one training Laurel. I think his reason for not wanting Laurel to train is the same reason the rest of Team Arrow will initially hesitate to accept her suiting up and going on missions. They're afraid she's going to get herself killed.

[Ariah]

Regarding the Laurel training - Oliver has a really bad record with training women who are hell-bent on revenge. He was so reluctant to let Laurel do her vigilante stunt, because - IMO - he was also thinking how Helena turned out.

He went all in with Helena, tried to make things better, but ended up creating a monster of vengance. He probably sees the same things in Laurel and doesn't want to touch her revenge crusade with a 10ft poll. It's a trainwreck  waiting to happen.

 

Anyhow, back to romance - recent KC interview calmed me down regarding any possible Laurivel. If there was any indication the script would veer into that direction, KC would stick to her guns with soulmates and whatnot. Instead, she went for "no romance on her mind right now". Which is good. Keep her away from Oliver romantically, do not put her in the center of the action and I'll be a happy camper.

[Pyramid]

The inescapable truth about any O/L relationship is that there is zero chemistry there. That's why it didn't and won't happen. Nothing else in show matters in the face of that. The lack of chemistry killed that ship dead from the word go.