Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Soulfire]

Even more nice parallels and callbacks --

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From here.

[jay741982]

22 hours ago, Soulfire said:

Even more nice parallels and callbacks --

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From here.

The Casting Director (is it still David Rappaport?) Is really good. William and Mia looking like Oliver and Felicity here 

[tv echo]

[tv echo]

Regular reminder to self of Arrow's OTP - from now until the bitter(?) end...

701 - Felicity (to Oliver): "I will always, always wait for you."

709 - Oliver (to Felicity): "One thing that will not change is how I feel about you. Love is too small a word. And no matter who you are, or - or what you become, no matter who I am, or - or what I become, you will always be - you will always be the love of my life."

Edited April 8, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

I stumbled across this old 2014 article this morning - I had never seen it before and literally LOLed at the "herb garden" comment...

When "Endgame" couples fall short; Dawson Syndrome VS The Pacey Solution
By Toni_watches Aug 18, 2014
http://www.tv.com/topics/general-tv-discussion/community/post/when-endgame-couples-fall-short-dawson-syndrome-vs-the-pacey-solution-1408394218/ 

Quote

But what happens when the intended “one true pair” falls flat? What if, what began as something promising, turns into one giant eye-roll, and the audience craves something different? Should the producers go against what they initially planned and listen to their audience?
*  *  *
This, folks, is what I like to call the “Dawson Syndrome.” When Dawson’s Creek first aired, it was clear who was “endgame”. Dawson and Joey were meant to be! They were best friends who didn’t realize they were in love, what’s more perfect than that?

Pacey. Pacey is more perfect than that. Pacey was meant to be a dalliance of Joey’s in between her epic bouts of romance with Dawson. He was merely a distraction, a little drama-fodder, an obstacle in the way of our One True Pair. But he wasn’t, was he? Katie Holmes and Joshua Jackson had chemistry and the fans of the show were ABOUT IT. And thankfully, producers of Dawson’s Creek recognized the natural progression the show was taking, and they ran with it.
I don’t want to drop any spoilers from the early 2000s, but in the end, fans wishes won out and Joey sailed sail off into the proverbial (and at times literal) sunset with Pacey. I call this, “The Pacey Solution.”
*  *  *
Arrow

It’s hard to change course when your source material already has a pre-existing fan base full of shippers. Oliver Queen, (aka The Green Arrow) loves Dinah Laurel Lance (aka the Black Canary) in the comic books. They’re meant to be! It’s unfortunate, then, that Stephen Amell and Katie Cassidy have all the chemistry of a herb garden and an ice cream scoop.
*  *  *
The Pacey Solution: Felicity! You guys, Felicity is the greatest. If every character on this show died except for Felicity, I would watch it. If the show became about Felicity buying post-its and flossing her teeth, I would watch it. Felicity is the greatest. Felicity.

ETA: It's interesting how this writer compared Lauriver to Dawson & Joey and Olicity to Pacey & Joey. In contrast, in that old 2013 interview (posted in the Social Media thread here), KC compared Lauriver to Pacey & Joey.

Edited May 9, 2019 by tv echo

[SmallScreenDiva]

10 hours ago, tv echo said:

KC compared Lauriver to Pacey & Joey.

I guess she never watched the show.

[statsgirl]

So I was watching repeats of Stargate SG1, and it suddenly occurred to me how grateful I am to Arrow that Oliver and Felicity were OTP from season 2 and got together at the end of season 3 and except for the break-up over William, they were together till the end of season 7, and hopefully through season 8.  And even when they were apart and Felicity was with Malone and Oliver with Horrible Susan, you knew that they were OTP. And then they got married and had a baby.

This is something no other show has given me.  On Stargate they teased Sam and Jack from season 1 but they never actually got together on the show. The closest we got was her unpacking a picture of him in Stargate Atlantis and a cut scene where Sam said that she was dating an older guy in Washington. Even a secondary couple, Daniel/Vala, only got together in an alternate timeline.  Another of my ships was Worf/Dax in ST: Deep Space 9 that lasted 2 seasons until she was killed because the actress wanted to leave the show. Sheridan and D'Lenn were together only 2 1/2 seasons when the show ended. My ER ship was together maybe 2 years.

In May 2015, I couldn't believe that all three of my then ships on Arrow, Castle and OUaT were working out. Then Jennifer Morrison left OUaT, and the new EPs of Castle separated Castle and Beckett because they thought it would be more fun to go back to Castle being alone.  Only Arrow kept their couple together.

So while I've often been frustrated and even more often greedy for more scenes of Olicity, the truth is that this show has given me more of my ship than any other show that I've watched ever has. I'm very grateful for that, and for the Olicity fandom.

[Soulfire]

Some nice parallels and callbacks --

 

 

 

 

 

 

Taken from here.

[BkWurm1]

We need a starry eyed swooning like button.

[tv echo]

Oliver (to Felicity): "My only regret is not telling you I loved you sooner."

So when do you think Oliver wished he had told Felicity that he loved her the first time? 

BTW, here's a list of all of the times that Oliver told Felicity 'ILY':

In 223 (Unthinkable), Oliver fake-told Felicity that he loved her in order to fool Slade Wilson: 
Oliver: “I love you. Do you understand?”

In 301 (The Calm), Oliver kinda told Felicity that he loved her in a backward sort of way:
Oliver: “Felicity… Don't ask me to say that I don't love you.” 

In 309 (The Climb), Oliver outright told Felicity that he loved her, right before he went off to duel Ra's al Ghul:
Oliver: “I love you.” 

In 320 (The Fallen), Oliver told Felicity that he loved her for trying to escape with him from Nanda Parbat:
Oliver: "Thank you for trying. I love you all the more for it. But this only ends one way."

In 411 (A.W.O.L.), Oliver told Felicity that he loved her in response to her 'ILY':
Oliver: “I love you, too.”

In 416 (Broken Hearts), Oliver kinda told Felicity that he loved her as part of his fake wedding vows:
Oliver: "You can ask me to say that I don't love you, but I will never lie to you again. You are my always, and I just want the chance to be yours." 

In 608 (Crisis On Earth-X, Part 2), Oliver told Felicity that he loved her when he proposed again:
Oliver: "I want to move forward. Felicity, I love you - and I want to marry you."

In LoT 308 (Crisis on Earth-X, Part 4), Oliver told Felicity that he loved her when they reunited:
Oliver: "It doesn't matter. Nothing matters except that I love you. Okay? I don't need anything else. I don't need to get married. I just - I just want to be with you. Okay?"

In LoT 308 (Crisis on Earth-X, Part 4), Oliver told Felicity that he loved her when they got married:
Oliver: "I remember saying something along the lines of, you're the very best part of me. Felicity, I'm a better human being just because I've loved you."

In 618 (Fundamentals), Oliver told Felicity that he loved her when they had a discussion about how Oliver felt that he had to go it alone again when fighting Ricardo Diaz:
Oliver: "I respect your concern, and I love you very much for it. We will talk more about this, but I need to chat with William."

In 621 (Docket No. 11-19-41-73), Oliver told both Felicity and William that he loved them when they were awaiting the jury verdict in his trial:
Oliver: "I love both of you very much. And whatever happens, nothing is gonna change that."

In 622 (The Ties That Bind), Oliver told Felicity that he loved her when they had a discussion about Felicity going into the field against his wishes:
Oliver: "No. This is a conversation that happens because I love you."

In 701 (Inmate 4587), Oliver told Felicity that he loved her when she visited him in prison after Diaz attacked her and William:
Oliver: "I love you so much. And I'm so sorry that I wasn't there. I should have been there."

In 709 (Elseworlds, Part 2), Oliver told Felicity that she was the love of his life:
Oliver: "People change, Felicity. It means we're growing. It means we're evolving. Except for one thing. One thing that will not change... is how I feel about you. Love is too small a word. And no matter who you are, or - or what you become, no matter who I am, or - or what I become, you will always be... you will always be the love of my life. People change. That never will."

In 711 (Past Sins), Oliver told Felicity that he loved her in response to her 'ILY' after she has to leave quickly when her phone chimed:
Oliver: "I love you, too."

In 716 (Star City 2040), Oliver told Felicity that he loved her while she was giving birth to Mia:
Oliver: "I love you so much."

In 722 (You Have Saved This City), Oliver told Felicity twice that he loved her when they said good-bye to each other, right before the Monitor took Oliver away with him:
Oliver: "When I came back to Star City to start my mission, I didn't think that I was capable or deserving of love. But you opened up my heart in ways that I never th- thought were possible. My only regret is not telling you I loved you sooner."
Oliver: "I love you."

ETA: Of course, there are a lot more instances where Oliver told or showed Felicity that he loved her in more indirect ways.

Edited May 19, 2019 by tv echo

[Mellowyellow]

I will forever wonder when it is Oliver thinks he should have told her he loved her.

[kickingnames]

5 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I will forever wonder when it is Oliver thinks he should have told her he loved her.

My vote is for right about here:

When I was in my bedroom squeal-screaming, “SAY SOMETHING, YOU IDIOT!!!!” at Oliver’s 😍.

[BkWurm1]

The first time that comes to mind it after he did the fake out because I'm positive (and we had it confirmed by SA and MG I believe) his fake out was his real feelings so I'm sure he had some regret that he'd been afraid to tell her the truth that it was the truth sooner.

Then I start going back during season 2 and it starts becoming when did he REALIZE that he loved her. I tend to think he knew he cared a lot and told himself he couldn't go there as of when she showed up on the island.  Prior to that I don't think he had shaken his past goal of all things Laurel.  

I don't think he knew he LOVED her until after the thing with Isabelle in Russia.  Then suddenly the thing they were ignoring was at least touched on.  Oliver at that point for sure knows he could fall hard for her at that point but not sure he knew he'd already fallen until after Barry showed up.  But he was still thinking pretty little of himself and any chance to be with someone he loved in the forever kind of way and so for a moment even tried to play matchmaker for Barry and Felicity.  (In part also because her happiness meant more to him than his) 

I think he knew he loved her by the time he told her she was his partner but still was set on never acting on it and thinking she deserved better.  

[Mellowyellow]

1 minute ago, BkWurm1 said:

I think he knew he loved her by the time he told her she was his partner but still was set on never acting on it and thinking she deserved better.  

Episode please!!!! Because I may need this info for research purposes!!!!!

[BkWurm1]

I don't know off hand.  I think it was after the hiatus. It was when Barry was in a coma and Felicity was visiting and Oliver got jealous and accused her of not having her head in the game.  That lovely conversation/apology at the end

[Mellowyellow]

5 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I don't know off hand.  I think it was after the hiatus. It was when Barry was in a coma and Felicity was visiting and Oliver got jealous and accused her of not having her head in the game.  That lovely conversation/apology at the end

The one where he tells her maybe Barry is dreaming of her (seriously who does that with heart eyes???)? 

Edited May 18, 2019 by Mellowyellow

[BkWurm1]

Blast Radius is the name of the episode but I totally forgot about State vs Queen and the Count Vertigo episode.  "He had you and was going to hurt you, there was no choice to make."

He must have known then, wouldn't you say?  This was the episode before Barry showed up.  And remember how rattled he was afterward when he got back to the court house?  Yeah, if he didn't know the extent of his feelings before, this is when it all came smashing into clarity.  He was still in denial of ever acting on it though.  Maybe even tried to talk himself out of his feelings.  Ack, I forgot how many back to back shippy episodes we had that year.  

[Soulfire]

From 2x10: Blast Radius --

 

 

Same ep, after Felicity babbles about Barry --

 

 

And from before that, from 2x07: State VS. Queen --

 

 

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Edited May 18, 2019 by Soulfire

[Mellowyellow]

22 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Ack, I forgot how many back to back shippy episodes we had that year.  

And we can enjoy them all in peace because the ending did Olicity justice. 

You do not know how relieved I am😅😅😅

[Featherhat]

28 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

And we can enjoy them all in peace because the ending did Olicity justice. 

You do not know how relieved I am😅😅😅

Oh trust me, I've been wondering that before the finale. It would have been a shame because of the awesome chem. I love other characters and other parts of Arrow but that would have been the straw that broke the camel's back. I already get annoyed in the lead up to Moira's death eps. Sigh.

Recently I keep wondering what would have happened to Felicity if she had never become the LI. Just the funny tech girl with the unrequited crush with the occasional BF like the cop or a Barry type? Allows to grow, because she (and obviously Dig) had no problems telling Oliver when they disagreed with him long before  but it's one of the complaints I see about her.

I would also  out of curiosity like to know the original 3-5 season outline for the Oliver-Laurel-Tommy plan.

[BkWurm1]

41 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

Oh trust me, I've been wondering that before the finale. It would have been a shame because of the awesome chem. I love other characters and other parts of Arrow but that would have been the straw that broke the camel's back. I already get annoyed in the lead up to Moira's death eps. Sigh.

Recently I keep wondering what would have happened to Felicity if she had never become the LI. Just the funny tech girl with the unrequited crush with the occasional BF like the cop or a Barry type? Allows to grow, because she (and obviously Dig) had no problems telling Oliver when they disagreed with him long before  but it's one of the complaints I see about her.

I would also  out of curiosity like to know the original 3-5 season outline for the Oliver-Laurel-Tommy plan.

I think ignorance might be my bliss on the long term triangle.  

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, Soulfire said:

From 2x10: Blast Radius --

 

 

Same ep, after Felicity babbles about Barry --

 

 

And from before that, from 2x07: State VS. Queen --

 

 

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Seems so long ago and just yesterday.  He's so soft with her.  

Lol.  The other day I was getting complaints from someone about that.  They said with everyone else he is an Alpha but with Felicity he's a Beta.  First, the alpha and beta thing is crap in practice but I kind of love the idea of him rolling over and showing her his belly.  

[Featherhat]

30 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Seems so long ago and just yesterday.  He's so soft with her.  

Lol.  The other day I was getting complaints from someone about that.  They said with everyone else he is an Alpha but with Felicity he's a Beta.  First, the alpha and beta thing is crap in practice but I kind of love the idea of him rolling over and showing her his belly.  

I think Oliver is a gentle person at heart in many ways but unable to show it to most people. It's always really good acting with SA when he immediately slips in to that more when he spots Felicity/EBR. Dynamics change in different circumstances, but I do like that Olicity seen to enjoy her on top during sex quite a bit despite his control issues elsewhere.

Edited May 18, 2019 by Featherhat

[scarynikki12]

57 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

but I kind of love the idea of him rolling over and showing her his belly.  

Dirty.

[statsgirl]

7 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I don't think he knew he LOVED her until after the thing with Isabelle in Russia.  Then suddenly the thing they were ignoring was at least touched on.  Oliver at that point for sure knows he could fall hard for her at that point but not sure he knew he'd already fallen until after Barry showed up.  But he was still thinking pretty little of himself and any chance to be with someone he loved in the forever kind of way and so for a moment even tried to play matchmaker for Barry and Felicity.  (In part also because her happiness meant more to him than his) 

I think he knew he loved her by the time he told her she was his partner but still was set on never acting on it and thinking she deserved better.  

7 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Blast Radius is the name of the episode but I totally forgot about State vs Queen and the Count Vertigo episode.  "He had you and was going to hurt you, there was no choice to make."

He must have known then, wouldn't you say?  This was the episode before Barry showed up.  And remember how rattled he was afterward when he got back to the court house?  Yeah, if he didn't know the extent of his feelings before, this is when it all came smashing into clarity.  He was still in denial of ever acting on it though. 

I think both of those are too early.  In State vs Queen, he was aware that he cared about her but he was shutting himself off from love so he wouldn't have connected with how he felt about her. He was aware of some uncomfortable feelings in The Scientist and by Blast Radius he was in full-blown jealous mode as Diggle pointed out. But I don't think he actually realized he loved Felicity at that point because he wouldn't have got into a relationship with Sara if he had, he wasn't that guy any more.

I think it was around the time he told her he loved her to fool Slade, but as Diggle said in 3x1, he was only fooling himself.

6 hours ago, Featherhat said:

Recently I keep wondering what would have happened to Felicity if she had never become the LI. Just the funny tech girl with the unrequited crush with the occasional BF like the cop or a Barry type? Allows to grow, because she (and obviously Dig) had no problems telling Oliver when they disagreed with him long before  but it's one of the complaints I see about her.

I think she would have been like Garcia on Criminal Minds, mostly comic relief including in her relationships but supporting the hero through his life adventures and constantly being toyed with. One of the many reasons I gave up on the show.

[JamieLynn832002]

21 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

But I don't think he actually realized he loved Felicity at that point because he wouldn't have got into a relationship with Sara if he had, he wasn't that guy any more.

I don't necessarily believe he realized that early either but I could actually see him doing this. It wouldn't have been coming from the same douchey place anymore but Oliver could be really stupid and I could see him deciding that he couldn't pursue Felicity because of the danger but Sara could protect herself and was also in love with someone else so Sara wouldn't get hurt. Of course, I still believe he was with Susan 95% because he thought Felicity wasn't an option, first because of Billy and then because he'd killed Billy so...

Edited May 18, 2019 by JamieLynn832002
hit post accidentally

[Mellowyellow]

I actually wonder if he knew during the "Because of the life I lead" speech. Why would he say such a thing and look like that since there was no reason he needed to explain that to her and look like a kicked puppy doing it.

I feel like he somewhat knew but also told himself (and hinted to her) it could never be and then worked to close the lid on it. 

Yes they were friends and Isabel was mean to Felicity but that devastated look on his face after Felicity told him he deserves more was not a " sorry I slept with the chick who is nasty to you" look. 

I think the relationship with Sara and consequent ignoring of Felicity for a few episodes was his attempt at shutting down his feelings for good and moving on. I think he put in genuine effort with Sara and was sincere but probably did it to kill Olicity for Felicity's own good. 

Edited May 18, 2019 by Mellowyellow

[KenyaJ]

2 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

I actually wonder if he knew during the "Because of the life I lead" speech. Why would he say such a thing and look like that since there was no reason he needed to explain that to her and look like a kicked puppy doing it.

I think that was when he acknowledged to himself that he had feelings for her but resolved that he could never act on them

I think he realized he was in love with her during the hug in the clocktower in 2x22, which led to him blurting it out in 2x23.

10 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

The first time that comes to mind it after he did the fake out because I'm positive (and we had it confirmed by SA and MG I believe) his fake out was his real feelings so I'm sure he had some regret that he'd been afraid to tell her the truth that it was the truth sooner.

I'm pretty sure MG confirmed it too, but SA definitely did, in this article: https://tvline.com/2015/01/20/arrow-season-3-preview-stephen-amell-oliver-dead/

Quote

Q: If/when Oliver resurfaces, do you think he and Felicity will be moved to be a bit more frank about their feelings for one another, a little bit more selfish, and just kind of go for it?

SA: I don’t think that they could be any more frank than they’ve been, or certainly than Oliver has been. He’s told her that he’s loved her three times, actually, because clearly he meant it in the finale of Season 2, and she’s never said it back.

I'd love for someone to ask him in London his opinion about when he thinks Oliver wishes he'd told Felicity that he loved her. 

[Mellowyellow]

Haha I laughed when reading that because SA sounds a wee bit salty that Felicity hasn't said it back (at that point in time). So cute!

***

Looking back at the way he gazed at her during her speech to him (when he was dramatically going to surrender himself to Slade) that looks like a man in love to me.

***

So in summary are we going with:

*Acknowledgement of feelings for Felicity - 206

*Realises he's fully in love - 223

[Mellowyellow]

4 hours ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

I don't necessarily believe he realized that early either but I could actually see him doing this. It wouldn't have been coming from the same douchey place anymore but Oliver could be really stupid and I could see him deciding that he couldn't pursue Felicity because of the danger but Sara could protect herself and was also in love with someone else so Sara wouldn't get hurt. Of course, I still believe he was with Susan 95% because he thought Felicity wasn't an option, first because of Billy and then because he'd killed Billy so...

I always felt like that thing with Susan (if we even acknowledge it) was his bid to prove that he had grown and even though he'd lost the love of his life and everything had pretty much gone to sh@t he was going to try to rise above it and not do what he did in S3.

Haha I still love that really straightforward break up where he high tailed it behind his desk right after he broke up with her. I think he was genuinely sorry but he looked like he wished he hadn't gotten into that mess in the first place.

My head canon for his internal monologue is:

I am really sorry I got involved with you. I was trying not to be S3 Oliver where I mooned over Felicity and waited for death but now I realise maybe that's my destiny without Felicity and you know what, it's actually not that bad so I'm gonna revert to it but be a bit more zen this time.

Then as soon as Felicity was on the table again he was pretty much "Squeeeeeeeeeee!!! Who's Susan?"

[Featherhat]

That break up right after she got kidnapped will never not be funny. "It's not you it's me and the scriptwriters have told me I'm getting back together with Felicity, so have a nice life, even though a few eps ago I insisted you were really awesome even though you were tying to out me as a vigilante and destroy my sister. There's the door. " 

The writers were somewhat trying to pretend there was no such thing as Olicity until they wanted to go back to it again so it was the season of random shipstalls. With Susan I go with loneliness, sexual frustration, determination to move on because his ex had and that stung and she was there being a leggy brunette with attitude (one of his previous defaults) and making it clear she was "interested" supposedly beyond her story and he walked into it and then got very defensive about his choices. I mean Carly Pope is very attractive but there must have been beautiful, interesting women willing to date him/the mayor or be a mutually beneficial booty call who weren't trying to bring down his administration and out him as GA.

5 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I think she would have been like Garcia on Criminal Minds, mostly comic relief including in her relationships but supporting the hero through his life adventures and constantly being toyed with. One of the many reasons I gave up on the show.

Garcia was one that came to mind for me too and fits in with the "keep Felicity in her box and freak out if she comes out of it mentality. "

[apinknightmare]

The only redeeming part of the whole dumb relationship with Susan was the laugh I got out of her having to remind Oliver they hadn’t had sex yet. 

Great stuff. 

[tv echo]

10 hours ago, KenyaJ said:

I'm pretty sure MG confirmed it too, but SA definitely did, in this article: https://tvline.com/2015/01/20/arrow-season-3-preview-stephen-amell-oliver-dead/

This was the same 2015 interview in which SA put the nail in the coffin of any future Lance sister romance:

Quote

TVLINE | On the romantic front, do you think there is a place on Arrow for a great love? I mean, Smallville had Clark and Lois, the Spider-Man movies always involve Mary Jane or Gwen…. A female is always a part of the hero’s journey.
I think that both Laurel and Sara, for Oliver, were loves that were principally from the past, from before the boat. And any other sort of brief relationship that he’s had has been flawed. Felicity has clearly, over the course of two-plus seasons, grown into that love for him. It’s just a matter of whether or not they can ever find a spot where they can make it work on an ongoing basis.

Edited May 19, 2019 by tv echo

[calliope1975]

I still laugh when I think of the time WM tried to sell the ship stall with TPTB not knowing if SA/EBR still had chemistry. 

Edited May 19, 2019 by calliope1975

[insomniadreams88]

3 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

The only redeeming part of the whole dumb relationship with Susan was the laugh I got out of her having to remind Oliver they hadn’t had sex yet. 

Great stuff. 

That was such a mess. And I wonder if she and Oliver hadn’t become romantically involved — I still think the character would’ve been better off used as an antagonist for Thea like she was in her first episode* — would she have thrown a drink on Oliver to see him without a shirt to see his Bratva tattoo? Because that would’ve been hilarious. “Oh, oops, didn’t mean to toss this cup of water across the room on you. Here, let me help you get your shirt off immediately.”

* I think that dynamic would’ve been better for Oliver, Thea, and Susan. It could’ve hit some of the same beats — Susan investigating Oliver, Thea pulling a Moira to protect him — but Oliver could’ve mostly stayed out of it and his concern could’ve been primarily for Thea instead of the stupid, “Oliver totally cares about Susan even though we’ve seen no reason why he does or that he does and he forgot she existed immediately” line they tried and failed to sell. Oliver/Susan did nothing for Oliver/Felicity but it definitely hurt Oliver and Thea’s relationship IMO. 

[BkWurm1]

16 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I think both of those are too early.  In State vs Queen, he was aware that he cared about her but he was shutting himself off from love so he wouldn't have connected with how he felt about her. He was aware of some uncomfortable feelings in The Scientist and by Blast Radius he was in full-blown jealous mode as Diggle pointed out. But I don't think he actually realized he loved Felicity at that point because he wouldn't have got into a relationship with Sara if he had, he wasn't that guy any more.

I think perhaps there could be degrees to which he realized he loved her. 

Like when the Isabelle thing happened he realized his feelings for Felicity were much deeper than he realized but was going with the noble sacrifice thing and certain he hadn't crossed that line.  But then when he looked back might have pinpointed that moment as when he probably was in love and didn't realize it. 

  Then in State vs Queen when the Count came millimeters from ending Felicity's life, he I think realized in the moment that he full on loved her and was still totally shaken by the thought when he arrived back at the court house (Thea asking if he was ok and him saying, "I don't know.")  BUT I also do think he probably walked it back pretty quickly and convinced himself that he just really cared a lot about her and he was just confused about what he was feeling.  (But again later could look back and shake his head over his denial) 

Then he was all kinds of jealous of Barry but still in a lot of denial.  And by the time he told Felicity she was his partner he was wavering between 1) telling himself the special feelings he had were just because he valued and relied on her so much and he'd never had such a bond with a woman before and 2) knowing he was lying to himself but determined not to act.  No one will ever convince me he wasn't talking about himself when he said "Maybe he's dreaming about you." 

Part of him I think at that point knew and also at least IMO some of the time acknowledged the truth BUT I also think Oliver was used to "love" being something he could choose to guide his actions or not.  He thought he loved Laurel and yet from how he treated her, I can't agree that he really did.  I think he fought his feelings and also turned to Sara as a buffer/distraction in much the same way that I think Felicity turned to Billy. 

I know Oliver genuinely had affection for Sara and I think Felicity probably genuinely thought Billy was a good guy and since each in their situations thought being with the other was impossible - no matter how they felt- they tried to use the others relationships to move on and drowned their feelings.  But I think they both also knew that who they were with was never a replacement or could come close to the feelings they harbored for the one they "couldn't" be with.  

Then when Slade made a big deal about taking the woman he loved  in payment for Shado's death, Oliver was starkly aware there was no more denying it or trying to move on.  But he was still terrified he couldn't be with her.  After the "fake out" he never denied it, just didn't say anything for a while and basked with being close in any way he could.  

[Velocity23]

This is when he knew for real

[Mellowyellow]

14 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

No one will ever convince me he wasn't talking about himself when he said "Maybe he's dreaming about you." 

One will always wonder what kind of dreams and how he was rationalizing them in his head. 

[tv echo]

So I went back and checked my other notes - here's what MG said about this subject (I kinda disagree with MG - or else Oliver must have been in deep denial throughout most of S2, because I thought that he showed real feelings for Felicity way before S2 ended)...

In the tie-in comics about events that took place between S2 and S3, Arrow Volume 2.5, MG wrote the introduction, which included the following:

Quote

... These stories "really happened" within the universe of our show. As such, I - aided and abetted by my cowriters, Keto Shimizu and Brian Ford Sullivan - was able to use this series to answer some questions that we didn't have the screen time to answer in Season Three: ... How did Oliver realize that he had romantic feelings for Felicity? You're about to find out. ...

Arrow Volume 2.5, Book 1 (Blood) – Felicity is kidnapped and Brother Blood offers a trade (the Arrow for Felicity):
Oliver: “Felicity would try and leave a trail for us to follow.”
Roy: “How do you know that?”
Oliver: “Because she knows I’ll always look for her.”
*  *  *
Oliver: “If I turn myself over to him, Blood will let her go.”
Roy: “If you do this, he’ll kill you.”
Oliver: "I know. But I just got her back from Slade... I can't lose her again."  
*  *  *
Roy: “It’s almost midnight. You going to fill me in on the plan yet?”
Oliver: “It’s simple. I turn myself over to Blood. Felicity goes free.”
Roy: “Look, I get the stoic, monosyllabic thing is your standard gear but something about this is different. Someone. Because it’s Felicity.”
Oliver: "Since the business with Slade... I can't stop thinking about her... Seeing things from a different perspective."  
Roy: "That almost sounded like you have feelings."
Oliver: “Roy –“
Roy: “Point is, this isn’t happening by doing what Blood says. If we’re gonna get Felicity back… it’s gonna take us both.”
*  *  *
Oliver: “Just because I don’t carry a gun, don’t think for a second I don’t know how to use one.”
Bad Guy: “And how do you think this changes your situation any? I still have your Ms. Smoak in my custody.”
Oliver: “And you’re going to take me to her.”
Bad Guy: “Or what? I worked for Sebastian Blood, if you’ll recall. I know you’ve foresworn killing.”
Oliver: “I guess Sebastian forgot to mention… what happened to the last person who threatened Felicity Smoak’s life. Take me to Felicity Smoak. Do it now.”
*  *  *
Helena: “It doesn’t seem like Oliver to make that kind of mistake…”
Roy: “He didn’t make a mistake.”
Helena: “He must really love her to surrender himself like that, to a man who wouldn’t keep his word, with no assurances that he’d keep his word.”
Roy: “I don’t know what Oliver’s feelings for Felicity are. But he didn’t make a mistake. He didn’t miscalculate and he didn’t put his trust in someone he shouldn’t have. His last communication to me was ‘Tell her I’m sorry.’ It was code in case our transmissions were being monitored.”
Helena: “Code for what?”
Roy: ‘Follow my GPS… Do whatever it takes to get me and Felicity back. And that’s what I’m doing.  Is the Felicity of it all gonna be a problem for you? I need to know.”
Helena: “It’ll be fine. Let’s get Oliver and his new girlfriend back.”
*  *  *
Helena: “You’re both assuming a lot, asking me to help you rescue your new girlfriend.”
Oliver: “She’s not my girlfriend.”
Roy: “She’s not his girlfriend.”
Oliver: “But she’s someone I care about. Like I care about you…”
Helena: “Then let’s get her back.”
*  *  *
Oliver: “Things are different now. I don’t kill anymore.”
Helena: “Really? I’m pretty sure if the Count was still alive, he’d have something to say about that.”
Oliver: “That was… different.”
Helena: “Let me guess: He threatened the bottle blonde down there.”
Oliver: “It was her or him. I choose her.”
Helena: “Maybe after we save her, she can tell me what that feels like.”
*  *  *
Felicity: "I mean – I know that sounded like I was hoping it’s temporary, but – you’re not still crazy anymore, are you?”
Helena: “You’re adorable. I can see why Oliver likes you.”
Felicity: “He doesn’t like me. I mean, not that way. We’re co-workers. And friends. But mostly co-workers.”
Helena: “Does Oliver know that?”
*  *  *
Oliver: “Thank you for helping us. For helping me.”
Helena: “Can I give you some advice? Don’t let that one get away.”
Oliver: “Who?”
Helena: “You know who.”

Edited May 19, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

MG also said the following...

Quote

ktmam93 asked:
Since Felicity was suppose to be a one-off character, when did you decide to shift the writing to make her be the romantic interest for Oliver?

Sometime during Season 2, I would say. Based upon the on-screen chemistry between Stephen and Emily in Season 1
1,003 notes   Jun 23rd, 2015

https://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/post/122308679784/since-felicity-was-suppose-to-be-a-one-off#notes

Edited May 19, 2019 by tv echo

[Featherhat]

On 10/29/2014 at 2:31 PM, ostentatious said:

I had to almost cry about the "quiet dreams" thing, thinking of Oliver's face staring at Felicity and the baby in the hospital.

Oh, will you two idiots just get married already? I never think this, really I don't. But these idiots...they actually need to get married and have babies. They want to. Does Oliver really want to go around shooting arrows at people? It's ineffective. Does Oliver really want to lead a vigilante team? Does this make him happy?

Go be Oliver Queen. Use the Queen name for good. Get the company back and let some combination of Felicity and Thea (eventually) run it. Oliver, be the Mayor, or be a stay at home dad. Coach youth league sports. Be on call should the Justice League form and have some need of you. Walk your daughter down the aisle when she marries John and Lyla's future son.

Marry Felicity. Have kids. Relax. *Be led* when you are needed. But otherwise just enjoy life, man.

Just reading this post from 2014. Quite a lot of that came true and Mia might well end up with Connor as a love interest despite Baby Sara (sob) being in  existence at the time, though sadly he won't be there to lead her down the aisle. Interestibg to procrastinate by reading people's thoughts about the beginning of their S2/S3 journey.

Edited May 19, 2019 by Featherhat

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, tv echo said:

So I went back and checked my other notes - here's what MG said about this subject (I kinda disagree with MG - or else Oliver must have been in deep denial throughout most of S2, because I thought that he showed real feelings for Felicity way before S2 ended)...

In the tie-in comics about events that took place between S2 and S3, Arrow Volume 2.5, MG wrote the introduction, which included the following:

Arrow Volume 2.5, Book 1 (Blood) – Felicity is kidnapped and Brother Blood offers a trade (the Arrow for Felicity):
Oliver: “Felicity would try and leave a trail for us to follow.”
Roy: “How do you know that?”
Oliver: “Because she knows I’ll always look for her.”
*  *  *
Oliver: “If I turn myself over to him, Blood will let her go.”
Roy: “If you do this, he’ll kill you.”
Oliver: "I know. But I just got her back from Slade... I can't lose her again."  
*  *  *
Roy: “It’s almost midnight. You going to fill me in on the plan yet?”
Oliver: “It’s simple. I turn myself over to Blood. Felicity goes free.”
Roy: “Look, I get the stoic, monosyllabic thing is your standard gear but something about this is different. Someone. Because it’s Felicity.”
Oliver: "Since the business with Slade... I can't stop thinking about her... Seeing things from a different perspective."  
Roy: "That almost sounded like you have feelings."
Oliver: “Roy –“
Roy: “Point is, this isn’t happening by doing what Blood says. If we’re gonna get Felicity back… it’s gonna take us both.”
*  *  *
Oliver: “Just because I don’t carry a gun, don’t think for a second I don’t know how to use one.”
Bad Guy: “And how do you think this changes your situation any? I still have your Ms. Smoak in my custody.”
Oliver: “And you’re going to take me to her.”
Bad Guy: “Or what? I worked for Sebastian Blood, if you’ll recall. I know you’ve foresworn killing.”
Oliver: “I guess Sebastian forgot to mention… what happened to the last person who threatened Felicity Smoak’s life. Take me to Felicity Smoak. Do it now.”
*  *  *
Helena: “It doesn’t seem like Oliver to make that kind of mistake…”
Roy: “He didn’t make a mistake.”
Helena: “He must really love her to surrender himself like that, to a man who wouldn’t keep his word, with no assurances that he’d keep his word.”
Roy: “I don’t know what Oliver’s feelings for Felicity are. But he didn’t make a mistake. He didn’t miscalculate and he didn’t put his trust in someone he shouldn’t have. His last communication to me was ‘Tell her I’m sorry.’ It was code in case our transmissions were being monitored.”
Helena: “Code for what?”
Roy: ‘Follow my GPS… Do whatever it takes to get me and Felicity back. And that’s what I’m doing.  Is the Felicity of it all gonna be a problem for you? I need to know.”
Helena: “It’ll be fine. Let’s get Oliver and his new girlfriend back.”
*  *  *
Helena: “You’re both assuming a lot, asking me to help you rescue your new girlfriend.”
Oliver: “She’s not my girlfriend.”
Roy: “She’s not his girlfriend.”
Oliver: “But she’s someone I care about. Like I care about you…”
Helena: “Then let’s get her back.”
*  *  *
Oliver: “Things are different now. I don’t kill anymore.”
Helena: “Really? I’m pretty sure if the Count was still alive, he’d have something to say about that.”
Oliver: “That was… different.”
Helena: “Let me guess: He threatened the bottle blonde down there.”
Oliver: “It was her or him. I choose her.”
Helena: “Maybe after we save her, she can tell me what that feels like.”
*  *  *
Felicity: "I mean – I know that sounded like I was hoping it’s temporary, but – you’re not still crazy anymore, are you?”
Helena: “You’re adorable. I can see why Oliver likes you.”
Felicity: “He doesn’t like me. I mean, not that way. We’re co-workers. And friends. But mostly co-workers.”
Helena: “Does Oliver know that?”
*  *  *
Oliver: “Thank you for helping us. For helping me.”
Helena: “Can I give you some advice? Don’t let that one get away.”
Oliver: “Who?”
Helena: “You know who.”

4 hours ago, tv echo said:

MG also said the following...

https://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/post/122308679784/since-felicity-was-suppose-to-be-a-one-off#notes

I think I could accept that it was in the 2.5 comic that Oliver started coming to terms with the idea of ACTING on being more public with his feelings but even in reading of the excerpt he seems to acknowledge knowing Felicity was the exception to his rules a long time ago and that others if they were smart would have used the count as an example of why not to mess with Felicity.  (Yes I'm doing a lot of inferring.  Lol.)

So yeah, I don't really buy that it never occurred to him before Slade took her that he had feelings for her.  Just that looks he gave her in the penultimate episode of the season (the one in his secret never to be mentioned again cave and in the clock tower.  Not to mention having to be the one to carry an unconscious Felicity despite a bum knee and it meaning he had to give Dig his bow.) make it clear he had very deep feelings even if he thought he couldn't act on them.

And I think the origin of his inspiration for his plan to get close to Slade and use the cure was when Lance burst in to say Laurel, aka the woman he loved, had been taken.  I'm convinced he probably had an internal moment that flat out went something like "Phew, Slade took the wrong woman".  Which was why a short time later when Felicity insisted he needed to out think Slade, his mind went to his made plan to do the unthinkable, put the real woman he loved in Slade's clutches.  

(If you can't tell, I really love this topic of discussion.  😄 )

About MG saying they decided to give Olicity the Green light sometime during seasons two, I'd say that they were probably already considering them as a couple before season one was over and that at the START of season two they set them up in situations where they could test out and see in action that kind of romantic chemistry. (All the classic hero/heroine saves of early season 2.) 

And would they have written the Isabelle thing with Felicity being hurt if they hadn't already decided to go down that road?  And I feel unquestionably by "he had you and was going to hurt you, there was no choice to make" they'd picked their lane.  It was such a blatant grand gesture to wake up the audience.  The hero that refused to ever kill again didn't hesitate to kill to save who mattered most to him.  (And this was when I actually thought they'd have him stick to not killing.  Five was such a regression)

[SmallScreenDiva]

4 hours ago, tv echo said:

ktmam93 asked:
Since Felicity was suppose to be a one-off character, when did you decide to shift the writing to make her be the romantic interest for Oliver?

Sometime during Season 2, I would say. Based upon the on-screen chemistry between Stephen and Emily in Season 1
1,003 notes   Jun 23rd, 2015

Guggenheim is straight up lying here, or being lawyerly. Why, I don’t know but he probably didn’t think it was a good idea to admit how much they screwed up with casting Cassidy. The shift in the writing started happening in Season 1, most noticeably AFTER the mid season finale. They gave a lot of romantic beats to Felicity instead of Laurel. If we were getting scenes like the “Can I trust you?” in episode 12, that means they were already making the plans to switch by October-November of Season 1. And Season 2 began full tilt with Olicity with the jungle swinging and such. 

[insomniadreams88]

11 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

having to be the one to carry an unconscious Felicity despite a bum knee and it meaning he had to give Dig his bow

This will always be one of my favorite moments. There was NO reason why Diggle and those arms of his couldn’t carry Felicity.

As for when Oliver wishes he’d told Felicity he loves her, his answer may be different now (when he left with the Monitor) in retrospect because he’s thinking of the time he could’ve had with her before he had to leave her (for what he thinks is forever because he doesn’t know they’ll be reunited in 20 years). Also, he could even think, “well, it took a year for us to be together after the first time I said I love you (223 to 323), so if that timeline remained the same and I told her I loved her on X, then X+1 year later ... “ 

But I would really love to hear SA’s answer about this.

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, insomniadreams88 said:

As for when Oliver wishes he’d told Felicity he loves her, his answer may be different now (when he left with the Monitor) in retrospect because he’s thinking of the time he could’ve had with her before he had to leave her

Yes this.  I think his hindsight involved some wishful thinking and he  probably really wasn't ready to say I love you before he actually did, but I love the idea that he really can't remember why he hadn't told her he loved her earlier. That notion no longer makes any sense to him.  I love how much Oliver loves her.  

I've had other ships that I know the characters loved each other but I don't think any other brought the depth of love to their characters so clearly like Oliver and Felicity did with theirs.   Their love is more than the sum of its parts.  It's like a character of its own on Arrow.  A force all by itself.  

Yeah, bigger than the fricken universe.

Happy sigh.  

Edited May 19, 2019 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

6 hours ago, tv echo said:

ktmam93 asked:
Since Felicity was suppose to be a one-off character, when did you decide to shift the writing to make her be the romantic interest for Oliver?

Sometime during Season 2, I would say. Based upon the on-screen chemistry between Stephen and Emily in Season 1
1,003 notes   Jun 23rd, 2015

Yeah, sorry, not buying it.

The writing shift was when they stopped throwing new love interests at Oliver like Helena and McKenna because they had found the one they wanted. Given that they got rid of both Helena and McKenna in one fell swoop in The Huntress Returns in March 2013, I'd say the decision to go with Felicity was in 2012.  2x01, City of Heroes, was pure setting up Felicity to be his longtime love interest.

Re Oliver knowing he loved Felicity: I think it was dawning on him that he had feelings for her from early season 2 but he didn't let himself actually love her until he hugged her back in the clock tower in Streets of Fire (I think it was). By the time they were putting Slade in the ARGUS prison in Unthinkable, he was full one accepting his feelings.  Maybe that's what he regrets, not telling her then and losing a whole season of being with her.

[Featherhat]

I think it's a bit like having Felicity claim to Will that she loved is Dad from the second she met him. Not strictly true but in retrospect it was some of the most significant moments of her life, if not THE most significant. Like Oliver realising that's the moment when his  facade really cracked for the first time. It then started cracking all over the place with Dig in the same ep.

I guess MG might be being his version of diplomatic. "Oh yea we knew in S1, that's why we moved up the Lauriver sex and killed Tommy" plus also admitting they messed up from the getgo. They also might not have been 100% sure until S2 that Felicity really was going to be the big one and that Laurel couldn't be salvaged as LI. Though I certainly hope they knew when they had the Sara relationship planned. I do think it's somewhat amusing that they never even gave it a shot during/after "Rise of InstaCanary" which is what a lot of people were predicting. Instead it's 100% about Olicity, which is when the FeFe hate started.

[tv echo]

In line with what we were discussing upthread, this article was just published yesterday...

‘Arrow’: When did Oliver Queen fall in love with Felicity Smoak?
 Lynsey Neill  May 22, 2019
https://www.purefandom.com/2019/05/22/oliver-queen-only-love-is-felicity-smoak/ 

Quote

One of Oliver’s only regrets is not telling his (now) wife that he loved her sooner. And besides the sweet sincerity of that statement, there’s still a lot to unpack there.

Longtime watchers of Arrow know that the romantic plan wasn’t always Oliver and Felicity. For a short time, the plan was Oliver and Laurel, adhering to comic book canon.

And because the plan needed to change, there’s a lot of moments in the show where we can create valid arguments as to when Oliver fell in love with Felicity.

Whether any of these moments were scripted as having romantic undertones or not, the actors (Stephen Amell and Emily Bett Rickards) natural and undeniable chemistry created magic on our television screens, and consequently, the ship of dreams.
*  *  *
Here’s five contenders for when Oliver could have told Felicity he loved her:

#1 First Meeting (1×03) 
*  *  *
#2 Russia Sexual Tension (2×06) ...
This is the first time Oliver and Felicity have a discussion about furthering anything romantic between the two of them. Oliver said he couldn’t pursue anything more than a casual relationship because of the life he leads. And Felicity just wanted a full and happy life for Oliver, even if it wasn’t with her.
*  *  *
#3 There was no choice to make (2×07)
*  *  *
#4 You’re my partner (2×10) ...
Oliver was confused by the feeling of jealousy when it came to his Girl-Wednesday and Barry Allen. And as he was explaining to Felicity that he didn’t realize how much he needed her, an “I love you” wouldn’t have been completely out of nowhere.

#5 I believe in you (2×22)
*  *  *
My Verdict:
It’s fun to speculate when Oliver fell in love with Felicity, and when subsequently he could have told her so. But honestly, I don’t think there was ever one single moment that Oliver didn’t feel love for Felicity. I think the real question is when did he know it, and when did he trust the depth of his feeling. Felicity always knew what she felt for Oliver was love, but you can also speculate when she trusted the depth of her feeling as well.

Therefore, my personal head-canon has always been that Oliver knew he loved her in the clocktower (2×22), which is why the whole ruse worked, because he was telling the truth. However, he could have told her at any time before that. And that’s what Oliver regrets. Not having the extra time with the love of his life, and not being honest with himself and with her sooner.

And I could be wrong, Oliver could have known he loved Felicity in an off-screen moment while they were talking over some Big Belly Burger. He could have known during a moment in one of your fabulous fan fictions.

Loving Felicity Smoak is a constant state of being. For everyone. We just knew it before he did.

Edited May 23, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

LOL - I saw some fan tweet about how, in real life, the girl with glasses would never get an Amell guy. Then I literally came across this tweeted pic from Supanova Perth...

Edited June 30, 2019 by tv echo

[Featherhat]

That's cute.  In terms of the show, apart from anything else do the people who say Oliver would never have gone for a nerd in glasses not realise that EBR is gorgeous on the show (and outside it)? The show has never tried to "ugly Felicity up" like some shows try to pretend to do. And that's before you get into personalities and joint crusades and ideals. She wasn't actually some "ugly loser" with an "unattainable" crush, even if her mouth ran away with her sometimes and she said the wrong thing. Plus she also appears to be confident in bed and openly enjoy sex, not a blushing insecure or awkward type. 

Whilst she's different from many of his other love interests she's not a physical down grade and being in STEM isn't that different from being a hotshot lawyer or whatever. 

Edited June 30, 2019 by Featherhat