Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[BkWurm1]

Uh, sadly it is that bad. I despise 3x07 with the entirety of my being. It's known to me as the episode where they had Felicity Smoak sacrifice her feminist principles because a rich man flashed his superficial bling at her. I still hate them for that.

Ha! I only meant that there is no banging in 3-07, lol.

Edited January 2, 2016 by BkWurm1

[way2interested]

I wonder what would have happened if they just took Ray in a more platonic light with Felicity. Like, if Ray just symbolized another option for Felicity rather than actually fastforwarding them into a quick relationship. Or, if anything, they should have made it that both Ray and Felicity were rebounding on each other, since that's kind of what they were doing anyway, with Felicity's disconnection with Oliver and Ray's dead fiancee.

 

Honestly, what I wanted was for Ray to be a lovable asshole type like Tony Stark to really contrast with Oliver and Felicity, but I guess that would have made the Iron Man comparisons way too much at that point. Plus, I'm not sure if BR could have pulled it off. 

[johntfs]

I'm now caught up with Arrow through 3.07 and have switched back to Flash to go through 1.08 for the crossover.  Now that Ray has kind of softened his creepy stalker approach, I'm getting Felicity's interest in him.  She's interested in him because he's interested in her in a holistic way.  In the second season, Oliver pulled her out of IT and put her in as his executive secretary because it would far more convenient to him.  Ray made her a Vice President, probably of Applied Science or something else clearly in her wheelhouse.  Ray is wealthy, handsome, brilliant and highly interested in Felicity on all levels.  That's a pretty hard combination to resist, especially when the alternative is pushing her away except when he needs her to do something for him.  The story still feels a bit like fanfic, but within that fanfic I get why Felicity would feel and act as she does.

[AyChihuahua]

In at least some episodes the intent clearly was for him to come across as a "lovable asshole," but BR totally can't pull that off, so he was just an asshole, instead. I mean, imagine RDJ instead of BR in those scenes...he would have been fine. 

 

They screwed him up in every way. BR was miscast, the writing was shit and totally inconsistent, and the chemistry was shit. I was genuinely looking forward to a legit rival for Felicity's affections, bc I was already irritated with how Oliver had been treating Felicity, but RP was a total absolute utter failure, one of my all-time most hated characters, and the reason I won't watch so much as a minute of LoT as long as RP is on it.

 

Also, the idea that he's a fanfic stand-in for someone who really wants to bang Felicity is exceptionally disturbing considering he's Guggie's baby. That's just so icky. Poor EBR. 

[JenMD]

 Oliver pulled her out of IT and put her in as his executive secretary because it would far more convenient to him.  Ray made her a Vice President, probably of Applied Science or something else clearly in her wheelhouse. 

 

Ray made her VP of Palmer Industries, not just of a specific department (which doesn't make a lot of sense since we see her mostly working on tech, but that's what they went with).  Both he and Oliver had ulterior motives for giving her the jobs they did, so I don't give Ray all that much credit over Oliver.  The writers in S2 clearly went for the easiest way to keep Oliver, Felicity and Diggle together, by putting her in Oliver's office and then barely thought about it again, as far as any repercussions on her career, etc (although fandom certainly had feelings on it), it concerned them so little.  Pretty much the same thing happened with Ray (he needs her to crack the tech on his suit), only Ray is the "better" Oliver so he gets to give her a better job, Oliver's old office (hey, no new set required, look at that), etc.   Pretty much anything Ray-related either just makes me shrug or roll my eyes, it's all so sloppily written to service where they need characters to be.

[way2interested]

  Ray is wealthy, handsome, brilliant and highly interested in Felicity on all levels.  That's a pretty hard combination to resist, especially when the alternative is pushing her away except when he needs her to do something for him. 

That's a whole other problem with the love triangle as well. Ray does, or arguably does, have the perfect combination of traits for Felicity, plus he gave her the job that she deserved (after not letting her know what job she was going to do, letting her think that she was going to be an EA again and taking her friend's family's company after using her own hacking advice under false pretenses to hack into the company to do it, but that's a different discussion). I liked the fact that Felicity got a relative "good guy" to be interested in her and her in him, but they framed it in a way that tried to negate Oliver and Felicity's relationship in a way. I still loved Oliver and Felicity, but it's hard to argue for them when Ray is appearing as this "good guy" and giving the world to Felicity while the only nice moment that Oliver and Felicity even had in 3a was their talks in 305, and even then that's the episode when she also had a comforting scene with Ray and when he virtually saved Felicity's and Donna's lives through his tech and then gave her the day off to be with her mom.

 

The writers didn't even set this triangle as an even triangle between Oliver and Ray, giving Felicity a real decision to make between two men who could love her and she in return. Instead, they began making Ray into this perfect man for Felicity, while only giving you memories of Oliver and Felicity's relationship to give them support for s3. Ray had it all, while Oliver was beginning to lose everything. It makes sense to push up Ray to make him an option for Felicity, but to do that and give little moments to Oliver and Felicity to balance it out makes it all seem one-sided and far more about saying how great and better than Oliver Ray is, in general and not just as a contender for Felicity's feelings, rather than doing anything else.

[Sunshine]

That's a whole other problem with the love triangle as well. Ray does, or arguably does, have the perfect combination of traits for Felicity, plus he gave her the job that she deserved (after not letting her know what job she was going to do, letting her think that she was going to be an EA again and taking her friend's family's company after using her own hacking advice under false pretenses to hack into the company to do it, but that's a different discussion). I liked the fact that Felicity got a relative "good guy" to be interested in her and her in him, but they framed it in a way that tried to negate Oliver and Felicity's relationship in a way. I still loved Oliver and Felicity, but it's hard to argue for them when Ray is appearing as this "good guy" and giving the world to Felicity while the only nice moment that Oliver and Felicity even had in 3a was their talks in 305, and even then that's the episode when she also had a comforting scene with Ray and when he virtually saved Felicity's and Donna's lives through his tech and then gave her the day off to be with her mom.

 

The writers didn't even set this triangle as an even triangle between Oliver and Ray, giving Felicity a real decision to make between two men who could love her and she in return. Instead, they began making Ray into this perfect man for Felicity, while only giving you memories of Oliver and Felicity's relationship to give them support for s3. Ray had it all, while Oliver was beginning to lose everything. It makes sense to push up Ray to make him an option for Felicity, but to do that and give little moments to Oliver and Felicity to balance it out makes it all seem one-sided and far more about saying how great and better than Oliver Ray is, in general and not just as a contender for Felicity's feelings, rather than doing anything else.

There wasn't a triangle between Oliver, Felicity & Ray.  Ray was an option for Felicity after Oliver pushed her away.  In 3.01 Oliver chose the Arrow over Felicity.  He struggled with that choice all season.  This was the triangle.  He chose Felicity at the end of the season when the Arrow had been taken from him.  It doesn't sound like a choice but he could have hung around and become another superhero but he chose to embrace Oliver.  If Oliver had ever said I choose you during the season to Felicity then there might have been a O/F/R triangle.  O/F/R only works as a triangle if Felicity has a choice.  She never put helping the Team aside for Ray. 

[way2interested]

There wasn't a triangle between Oliver, Felicity & Ray.  Ray was an option for Felicity after Oliver pushed her away.  In 3.01 Oliver chose the Arrow over Felicity.  He struggled with that choice all season.  This was the triangle.  He chose Felicity at the end of the season when the Arrow had been taken from him.  It doesn't sound like a choice but he could have hung around and become another superhero but he chose to embrace Oliver.  If Oliver had ever said I choose you during the season to Felicity then there might have been a O/F/R triangle.  O/F/R only works as a triangle if Felicity has a choice.  She never put helping the Team aside for Ray. 

 

Definitely agree with all of this. This was how I saw s3 exactly. I was mostly arguing about the way the show framed Ray against Oliver in s3. I guess that I should have put triangle in quotes, since I was just talking about how press/EPs perceived it as Felicity choosing between the two rather than actually examining what was going on screen. I just didn't appreciate how the show would constantly dump on Oliver and Felicity's relationship while placing Ray on a super-special pedestal.

 

I actually did like that it was about Oliver choosing between Oliver and the Arrow and would have loved it if the show focused on it a little more so that it was more thematic and clear come 323 when he did choose Oliver and a life with Felicity.

[AyChihuahua]

If I cared enough about RP to debate I would probably argue that it was a triangle, just a shitty one. Just bc Felicity would have picked Oliver if she could have doesn't negate that she didn't/couldn't, and she did sleep with and have a relationship with Ray. There was also the metaphorical Oliver/Felicity/Arrow triangle, of course, but since despite this idiotic identity BS, Oliver and Arrow are in fact the physically/mentally/etc. same person (so dumb, forever), that was only a metaphorical triangle.

[lemotomato]

Like most of season 3, I just want to forget Ray and Felicity/Ray and pretend that they never happened. All I'll say is that the way the show introduced/integrated Ray was a precursor to how it dealt with Speedy/BC this season: Oliver/Arrow has to be brought down low in order to make the newbies look better/rootable. Oliver had everything taken away from him and made one stupid decision after another, while Ray did everything right (and even when he didn't-- stalking, keeping his suit a secret-- the show made Felicity excuse his behavior). This season, Arrow gets his butt kicked in every episode while Speedy/BC get all the fight sequences. In both cases, I end up resenting the characters the show is trying to get me to like, while wanting better for Oliver. 

[johntfs]

Just finished Flash 1.08 and about to go into Arrow 3.08.  Is it weird for me to think that there's some kind of dimensional portal between Starling and Central City?  Felicity in Central City seems much more like her self from Arrow Seasons 1 and 2, as does Oliver, for that matter. 

 

I continue to get why Felicity would be highly tempted by Ray.  Oliver is coming across as a person who would look at Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel and note that the painting was useful in covering the cracks in the roof.  Oliver looks at Felicity's skill in terms of how useful they are to him.  Ray is able to appreciate them on other levels.

 

I still find it absurd that the only job Felicity was able to get after the end of Season 2 was as a Geek Squader at a Best Buy clone.  That's like using Michael Phelps to lifeguard a wading pool.

[bijoux]

I don't think Felicity was looking for a real job after S2, she was expecting Oliver would get Queen Consolidated back. That was the grand scheme, this was just health and dental in the interim.

As for them going back to their previous versions in the črossover, I very much agree.

[Morrigan2575]

In the 2.5 comics (and I hate that they have a tie in) Felicity had a job at Kord Insdustries. However, she lost it because the new Brother Blood (Sebastian Blood's driver that Felicity interrogated in S2) kidnapped her and she missed a few days of work without any notification.

[BkWurm1]

In the 2.5 comics (and I hate that they have a tie in) Felicity had a job at Kord Insdustries. However, she lost it because the new Brother Blood (Sebastian Blood's driver that Felicity interrogated in S2) kidnapped her and she missed a few days of work without any notification.

RIght.  So she took the other job because of the flexible hours. 

 

I'm trying to remember if there was anything else kind of "must know" in the 2.5 comics. 

[wonderwall]

Completely off topic... But Oliver and Felicity totally dreamed about one another before they ran away together in season 3 :')

 

 

When Oliver told Felicity that maybe Barry was dreaming about her, I never for a second believed that he was actually talking about Barry especially with the way he stopped looking into her eyes when he said it... 

 

As much as I love how they are when they're together, I miss the subtle moments between them in earlier seasons when they accidentally show their true affection for one another. It's the little moments that defined Olicity, and it still does (what with their soft touches, how they're silently a team within a team, how they look at one another during one of Oliver's speeches, and just the way they soften when they're around each other...)

Edited January 3, 2016 by wonderwall

[johntfs]

The current situation with Felicity in the last episode reminds me a little bit of the situation in V for Vendetta with the gay woman in the cell next to V's writing her life story and giving him her love before she's anonymously shot and dumped into a mass grave.  At which point that tiny act of love unleashed a terrifying force of retribution that destroyed the people and government that had murdered her.

 

Lots of people really like Felicity Smoak and many of those people are super in nature.  Figure there's Team Arrow, which presumably includes Oliver, Dig, Laurel, Sara, Thea, Roy and probably a couple of others.  There's also Team Flash, which includes Barry, Firestorm, Cisco, Snow and probably a couple of others.  Figure Thea could motive Malcomb Merlyn into sticking around.

 

I know it'll probably just end up being Oliver going apeshit on Damien, but I am kind of holding out hope for a Person of Interest style roaring rampage of revenge in which all those superpeople team together to drop the Shithammer of God right on Damien Darke's head.  Because a whole lot of powerful people care an awful lot for Felicity Smoak.

[tv echo]

I'm trying to remember if there was anything else kind of "must know" in the 2.5 comics. 

 

Well, according to MG, he answers in the 2.5 comics the question of "How did Oliver realize that he had romantic feelings for Felicity?"

 

FYI, I previously posted on page 22 of the Green Arrow in Comics thread some information that I gleaned from reading the Arrow tie-in comics (scroll down to Oct 4, 2015, 9:36 am post).

Edited January 3, 2016 by tv echo

[wingster55]

The current situation with Felicity in the last episode reminds me a little bit of the situation in V for Vendetta with the gay woman in the cell next to V's writing her life story and giving him her love before she's anonymously shot and dumped into a mass grave.  At which point that tiny act of love unleashed a terrifying force of retribution that destroyed the people and government that had murdered her.

 

Lots of people really like Felicity Smoak and many of those people are super in nature.  Figure there's Team Arrow, which presumably includes Oliver, Dig, Laurel, Sara, Thea, Roy and probably a couple of others.  There's also Team Flash, which includes Barry, Firestorm, Cisco, Snow and probably a couple of others.  Figure Thea could motive Malcomb Merlyn into sticking around.

Firestorm? 

[looptab]

Johntfs is watching the shows for the first time and is not completely caught up, I think.

Edited January 3, 2016 by looptab

[tv echo]

Despite the beginning, this is not off-topic...

 

I was reading a review of last night's ep of Downton Abbey (warning: spoilers about episode if you go to link) and was struck by the following paragraph that discusses the relationship between Anna and Bates:

They are a relationship right at the heart of the show. Anna is the most beloved character, probably in the whole series, certainly the most positive and joyful and warmhearted character in the show. She’s fallen in love with this man who’s quite opposite to her. He’s melancholic and introverted and he’s got a disability, but nonetheless they have this total bond and they’ve then gone through six years of one terrible roadblock after another in their lives and happiness. They just have to keep navigating around all these things. The sort of things they’ve had to go through would destroy a lot of marriages, but they’ve got stronger and stronger and stayed there for each other. What you’ve now started to see is that very slowly in this last season the endless roadblocks will start to go and we will start to see their lives come right.

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/01/04/downtown-abbey-season-6-premiere-postmortem-gareth-neame

 

Sound familiar?  If Oliver & Felicity do get married or even if they don't, I hope that they stay together and that their bond stays strong, despite roadblocks tossed in their way (although hopefully, it won't take six years).

[bijoux]

I think that's more along the lines of You know you are watching too much Arrow when... Happens to me too. I read a book blurb the other day and was, hey look, that's totally Oliver and Felicity in the 1800s. I have to admit I don't like the comparison because while I loved Anna and Bates in the first season, they turned into the dullest characters with same shit happening to them over and over from S2 onward.

Edited January 4, 2016 by bijoux

[KenyaJ]

I have to admit I don't like the comparison because while I loved Anna and Bates in the first season, they turned into the dullest characters with same shit happening to them over and over from S2 onward.

 

This. If I hadn't been watching live last night, I would've skipped right past all their scenes. It's like Julian Fellowes has never heard the word "overkill."

[BkWurm1]

I'm currently adoring the very slow, very awkward romance between Mrs. Hughes and Carson.  Them having the cook be their go between to discover if Mrs. Hughes (who is only a Mrs. in honorary terms) is expected to be a "full" wife or not if she marries him was touching and giggle worthy.   

 

I was giggling as much as I did over Donna and Quentin but one relationship is a glacier and the other the zoom slide at the water park.

 

I of course am of the opinion we are going to lose Quentin but I hate that there will be no characters left on the show older than early forties.  (Actually, we probably would keep Donna as a occasional guest star but it's hard thinking of her as a proper adult)  Wouldn't it have been fascinating to have seen Moira navigate a new relationship?  When do you have the my first husband was murdered and my second once left me when I let him be kidnapped and held as leverage. 

 

The show is missing out on so many stories when since they killed Moira.  Part of me really wants the door between earth 2 to spit out Robert and Moira and just do a weird reset of the Queen family.   

[johntfs]

Moira and Quentin having a romance would have been fascinating to see.  For that matter watching Donna and Moira interact would have been amazing.

[bijoux]

I honestly can't see Moira going for Quentin at all. Or him for her, really. Plus, let's get real, she'd have started a campaign to get Walter back at some point because that woman was no idiot and Walter is da bomb.

[wonderwall]

Basically any interaction with Moira would've been fascinating...

 

• Felicity - The woman she threatened, and the woman who essentially undermined her relationship with Oliver by telling him the truth about Thea's parentage. Moira would've hated Felicity, but there would've been a mutual respect there. They'd know not to mess with one another. Their interactions would've been a lot more interesting after Oliver/Felicity got together. I have no doubt in my mind Moira wouldn't approve of their relationship. I can even see her telling Felicity about Oliver's son (after he learns about him) to undermine her relationship with Oliver.
• Diggle - Diggle would definitely not trust Moira at all. He would probably always be walking around eggshells around her. I can definitely see Diggle putting Moira in her place when she'd take things too far especially now that he isn't employed by the Queens. 
• Thea - Imagine the fallout of Thea learning about Malcolm. I feel like if Moira didn't die, Thea still would've gone with Malcolm and come back still angry at Moira for what she did. Moira's interactions with Thea would most probably be her trying to earn Thea's forgiveness and helping Thea when she learns she's killed Sara. I can also see Moira reminding Thea that Malcolm isn't her father. And that Walter and Robert were more her father than Malcolm would ever be. I can see Moira reminding her of that everyday if need be.
• Donna - I can see them being adversarial and see Moira not looking at Donna twice. Moira would probably be condescending towards Donna and massively underestimate her. Because while Moira would do anything for her kids, Donna would do anything for Felicity. And if Moira messes with Felicity or her relationship with Oliver, I feel like Donna would intervene.
• Oliver - I think Moira would've been really supportive of Oliver becoming Mayor. I just don't think that he would become one straight away (Moira would probably finish her term and then Oliver would probably run). I feel like Oliver would know that Moira and Felicity don't get along so he tries his best to make them but gives up at some point because it's futile. I can see Oliver telling Moira to back off from his relationship especially if she starts hitting a nerve. I can also see Oliver being incredibly upset at her when he finds out he has a kid that Moira paid BM to keep a secret. 

[kismet]

Agree that every interaction & relationship would have been more layered and complex with Moira still around.

I actually think her & FS would have become closer and more allied. I think a lot of their animosity for each other came from not really knowing each other. both had poor preconceived notions of each other and some deserving interpretations. It would not have happened right away but I do see it happening.

Either way it would have been amazing.

[wonderwall]

IDK why I always had a feeling that Moira/Felicity would not like one another but there'd be a sense mutual respect there. I can definitely see them being the kind to keep their enemies closer. Felicity would be wary of Moira and everything she does which is why she'd probably constantly keep tabs on her, Moira would be wary of Felicity and whether she would undermine her relationship with her son again...

[Delphi]

<p>

I think Moira would've been really supportive of Oliver becoming Mayor. I just don't think that he would become one straight away (Moira would probably finish her term and then Oliver would probably run). I feel like Oliver would know that Moira and Felicity don't get along so he tries his best to make them but gives up at some point because it's futile. I can see Oliver telling Moira to back off from his relationship especially if she starts hitting a nerve. I can also see Oliver being incredibly upset at her when he finds out he has a kid that Moira paid BM to keep a secret.

Omg, that would have been amazing to watch unfold. Thanks for those ideas which I now want more than the current show. :) Edited January 4, 2016 by Delphi

[Chaser]

I think Moira and Felicity would have butted heads a bit over Oliver, but would have bonded over their mutual disdain of Malcolm.

[wonderwall]

I think Moira and Felicity would have butted heads a bit over Oliver, but would have bonded over their mutual disdain of Malcolm.

 

I truly believe they're two sides of the same coin. And when they have a common enemy, they'd be unstoppable together. 

[johntfs]

I think Moira and Felicity would have butted heads a bit over Oliver, but would have bonded over their mutual disdain of Malcolm.

 Her children were everything to Moira.  Learning that after Moira shot "The Hood," Felicity saved Oliver's life would have been more than enough to put Felicity in Moira's good books.  I like John Barrowman, but Moira was so much better at "good intentioned but ruthless."

[Chaser]

Pretty sure Moira was better at everything. Lol

I don't think Felicity saving Oliver would have won Moira's automatic good graces. I think it would have gotten her respect and gratitude, but Felicity has a lot of influence over Oliver. And Felicity is headstrong, not someone who can be easily swayed. I think Moira would be wary of that.

Edited January 4, 2016 by 10Eleven12

[calliope1975]

This discussion is really making me smad (sad/mad) that we'll never get any of these possibilities. I still don't know why Moira had to die. It was never a surprise that Slade was a bad guy. He could have skewered her but she survived. The point still would have been made. I feel the same way about Tommy. The story he could have generated had he lived was far more interesting than his death. I guess I'm going to have to live in my own head canon where both survived. 

[AyChihuahua]

This discussion is really making me smad (sad/mad) that we'll never get any of these possibilities. I still don't know why Moira had to die. It was never a surprise that Slade was a bad guy. He could have skewered her but she survived. The point still would have been made. I feel the same way about Tommy. The story he could have generated had he lived was far more interesting than his death. I guess I'm going to have to live in my own head canon where both survived. 

I never understood why Slade wanted two big "Who ya gonna choose, Oliver" moments. Kind of redundant. So I would have been fine with skipping that scene entirely, even though the actors all killed it. 

 Her children were everything to Moira.  Learning that after Moira shot "The Hood," Felicity saved Oliver's life would have been more than enough to put Felicity in Moira's good books.  I like John Barrowman, but Moira was so much better at "good intentioned but ruthless."

I...don't know. She would have appreciated the save, but she did not like people messing with her kids' perception of her. 

 

But, she didn't actually try to do anything to Felicity when Felicity told Oliver (just a little threat and only of an emotional nature), so I can still see her messing with their burgeoning relationship, probably still thinking Felicity is not good enough for her darling boy, but not trying to have Felicity killed or anything along those lines. It's not so unusual for strong-willed mothers who are close to their sons not to be big fans of the women those sons choose. 

[kismet]

I love Tommy, but I felt his death was powerful and made the show seem more edgy that it would be willing to kill off major characters. Plus I thought how it inspired OQ's no-kill and positive channeling of his man-pain was a benefit that outweighed some of the cost. I LOVE Tommy and would love to have him back [if he's really dead ;)], but I actually found his death to be one of the reasons I respected the show. It was bold and yet logical. It was woven well into the story and made sense on the show's & characters' narratives.

 

Moira's death was not done for anything but shock value. And it made me lose some respect for the writers that they couldn't find a way to keep her on the show when it was obvious her character had so much more potential and the actress was phenomenal in the role. If they found a way to bring back JB, I don't know why they couldn't find a way to keep MQ.

 

SL should have died in s2 instead if they really needed a death. It would have made sense for Slade in his crazy to want to complete the circle from Shado's death by killing SL himself. It also would have even made sense to help LL's journey to BC that similar to OQ after TM's death, she spent the summer after her sister's death isolating herself with grief and perhaps trying to find some sense of closure via martial arts. She could have snuck away to some secret martial arts training site. So when we met her in the fall, perhaps we could just believe that she had the skills similar to how it was easier to believe TQ's skills after her summer with MM.

 

Considering how Ra's obsession with OQ was more about his man crush on OQ than justice for SL, I'm sure the writers could have put their thinking caps on and found some way to get Ra's to make his play for OQ. And somehow MM could have been involved just because.

Edited January 5, 2016 by kismet

[wonderwall]

The only reason why i was okay with Tommy's death was because something positive came out of it. They got mileage out of his death what with changing Oliver for the better and inspiring him to be more. That's why Tommy's death was so impactful. The same goes for Shado, Robert's, Yao Fei's deaths... They all served a purpose. 

 

However, nothing came out of Moira's death. Her death didn't serve a greater purpose. In the end Moira's death had no meaning and I hate that. Just like how Sara's death was wasted because it didn't inspire Laurel to do better. It just made her angry to the point where she had to fight because it tempered the fire in her. Sara's death, instead of motivating Laurel to change the world for the better, it made her more selfish. 

 

Nothing good came out of Moira/Sara's deaths which is probably why I've had such a hard time accepting said deaths. 

[Morrigan2575]

Moira's death wasn't about Oliver it was about motivating Thea to become Speedy.

[wonderwall]

Moira's death wasn't about Oliver it was about motivating Thea to become Speedy.

 

I never really saw it that way... I don't think Moira's death pushed Thea to become Speedy. Moira's death (as well as the 100000 lies being told to her) pushed Thea to go away with Malcolm and learn how to fight. Even then I feel like Thea going away had more to do with the lies than Moira's death... Moira dying just meant that there was nothing keeping Thea in Starling. 

 

In fact... I don't even know what Thea's motivation for becoming Speedy is or why she wants to fight crime...

Edited January 5, 2016 by wonderwall

[kismet]

Moira's death made it possible for TQ to go off with MM and fall into his clutches. It was just an easy device of plot, but it was not the only way they could have accomplished it. It might have been possible if MQ also went to prison. Or it could have been possible by TQ's shear pissed off stance with her mother. She wouldn't even take a break out of her anger to sign the papers that protected her family's assets. I can easily imagine her being so angry with Moira that she just decides to run off with MM to never be vulnerable again. Plus it was the added betrayal of Roy's lying that finally got her to commit to going off with MM. So I'm not even sure how much MQ's death motivated TQ.

 

I never even hear her mention her mother as part of her reasons for being a superhero. Besides her wine inspired introspection after MM returned from NP to crash on her couch, she has been silent about MQ. At least OQ mentions Tommy from time to time and even other people like Dig & FS have mentioned the importance TM has had on OQ's hero development.

[way2interested]

However, nothing came out of Moira's death. Her death didn't serve a greater purpose. In the end Moira's death had no meaning and I hate that. Just like how Sara's death was wasted because it didn't inspire Laurel to do better. It just made her angry to the point where she had to fight because it tempered the fire in her. Sara's death, instead of motivating Laurel to change the world for the better, it made her more selfish. 

 

Nothing good came out of Moira/Sara's deaths which is probably why I've had such a hard time accepting said deaths. 

 

I would say that nothing good did come out of Moira's death, but I at least appreciated that they did kill off someone in s2, as morbid as that sounds. I felt like Slade needed to something monumentally bad directly to Oliver to kind of show how serious this was getting and how far Slade was going in his revenge (destroying the city is one thing, but it isn't as visually personal as Oliver's own family). At that point, Slade did kidnap Thea, but he only told her the secret about Malcolm. Slade did confront Laurel, but he only told her Oliver's secret. At that point he didn't physically do anything to Oliver. His break-in into the lair didn't even have anything to do with the team, he was trying to get the skeleton key (no idea how he knew they even had that by the way). Even though I don't necessarily believe that the emotional shock or the seriousness of what was going on balances out killing off Moira for good, I still feel like something like Moira's death was needed, just as Tommy's death was to show that sometimes heroes can't win.

 

The real bummer was that Moira's death had no aftermath as Tommy's did. The main reason I believe that Tommy's death resonated and still feels right today is because it had an aftermath for s2, like you mentioned. They continuously mentioned Tommy's death throughout the season (even within the opening monologue), and showed that Tommy's death held weight. Moira's death was rarely mentioned even in 222-223 or in s3, and, like you said, never affected anyone. If it was made clear that her death meant something at least to Thea (even originally I thought that her motivation to become Speedy was because she wouldn't want to side with Malcolm after learning what he did to her and she wouldn't want to side with Oliver after learning he kept the Arrow secret from her, so she would have eventually done it to honor the one person who did everything for her: Moira), then I think her death would have been more accepted. 

 

So, what I'm kind of saying is that I feel like Moira's death had a purpose in 220, like Tommy's did in just 123, but it just didn't have the following aftermath that made it serve a greater purpose for any of the remaining characters.

 

ETA: Kind of what kismet is saying. Also, I didn't mention the overall detriment her loss was on the show, like pushing Thea towards MM or losing needed parental figures in the show, but y'all already mentioned that!

Edited January 5, 2016 by way2interested

[catrox14]

Moira's death was a stupid, unnecessary plot device. They could have gotten Thea to the same place without killing off Moira  UGH

 

/slams door

/stomps to the bitterness thread

[hogwash]

I'm still mad about all the insta-Dad crap they pulled with Merlyn (that's the real reason Moira's dead and Walter's AWOL) after all the shit Thea gave Moira about being a hypocrite and liar for being part of the Undertaking. I wish Moira was alive for a variety of reasons but it would've been especially amazing to see the ????? look on her face when she found out that Thea went off with Merlyn. "Uh, you wouldn't visit me in prison for 6+ months, but you went off on a ninja training vacation with the actual mastermind????" Not to mention her living off Merlyn's ill-gotten billions after she let the Queens lose their money (that's not how stocks work, S02) out of spite.

[bijoux]

Her children were everything to Moira.  Learning that after Moira shot "The Hood," Felicity saved Oliver's life would have been more than enough to put Felicity in Moira's good books.  I like John Barrowman, but Moira was so much better at "good intentioned but ruthless."

For all her faults, Moira was not a sociopath. Makes it easier for her to live in gray areas.

[Happy Harpy]

Moira and Quentin having a romance would have been fascinating to see.  For that matter watching Donna and Moira interact would have been amazing.

I kind of expected some hate sex somewhere during S1. I don't think they could have fallen in love, because Quentin isn't one for grey characters and Moira was too into rich and powerful men imo, but I thought that P.Blackthorne and S.Thompson had a good belligerent sexual tension.

[tv echo]

Here's my thought on Felicity's alleged 'overreaction' to Oliver lying to her in the Flarrow crossover (before time travel erased that interaction).  I initially chalked it up to the EPs' speed storytelling.  However, it could also be that Felicity knows Oliver so well by now that they have a kind of mental shorthand for their conversations.  After 3+ years, their relationship is so tight that they know each other really well.  It's just like when Felicity didn't want to talk to Oliver in 301 because she knew how he was going to react after their date blew up.  Or when Oliver had these mental conversations with Felicity while he was Al Sah-him.  So when she had the conversation with Oliver in the Flarrow crossover, she was mentally jumping ahead and ending up with her conclusion regarding lack of trust.  Anyway, that's my rationalization.

[dtissagirl]

I've said this before, but really -- I found Oliver's lie about the DNA test -- that he had a lead on DD that he wanted Barry to run -- so fucking disrespectful and offensive to Felicity that I'm pretty good with her explosion.

 

At the same time, I do also believe these writers have the same amount of subtlety of an anvil falling on my head, so I'm also pretty convinced they wanted an actual overreaction from Felicity in the erased timeline -- so that Barry could misunderstand the reasons behind it when he tells Oliver about it.

Edited January 6, 2016 by dtissagirl

[GirlvsTV]

I've said this before, but really -- I found Oliver's lie about the DNA test -- that he had a lead on DD that he wanted Barry to run -- so fucking disrespectful and offensive to Felicity that I'm pretty good with her explosion.

 

At the same time, I do also believe these writers have the same amount of subtlety of an anvil falling on my head, so I'm also pretty convinced they wanted an actual overreaction from Felicity in the erased timeline -- so that Barry could misunderstand the reasons behind it when he tells Oliver about it.

ITA. I don't mind the 'overreaction' because Oliver making up a story and lying to her face like that was awful. He made a choice to lie when he could have at least tried to ask her to give him more time, or say that he wasn't ready to talk about it, but he went straight for the lie.

And because the writers let plot needs take priority in what was a really important character moment for Oliver and Felicity, the whole thing came out muddled with both of them having to behave slightly OOC in order to accomplish the end goal of that scene - which was Barry seeing Felicity storm off.

[Ann Mack]

Plus when Felicity straight out asked him if he was ever going to tell her his was reply was "I don't know" so she was right when she said he'd fell off the wagon. The writers totally had both of them so OOC because they needed the end result. Which was BS and such contrived drama if it wasn't so obvious might have been laughable.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Ann Mack

[dtissagirl]

The plot-driven mess is made worse because before Oliver went out to stalk BM, he told Felicity he wanted to check IF there was something to tell her. His exact words were "There is something going on, and I am going to tell you all about it. I would just like the chance to know what I'm dealing with first."

 

And then a few hours later, when he figures out he does have a spawn, he tells Felicity the DD lie of doucheyness. Talk about flip flopping your main character for the sake of plot. JFC.