Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[dtissagirl]

I don't know when they decided that Tommy was gonna die in the S1 finale, but I do find it hilarious that all season long they keep showing Tommy as the ideal boyfriend for Laurel over and over and over again. He spends all season shedding the womanizer playboy label [something that we're never really shown, btw, we only hear about his past ways]: he's faithful and doting to Laurel, he's competent at his job at Verdant, he's there for Laurel when she needs him, just as he is for Thea, and for Oliver, and even for his cuckoo crazy murderous father. And when he learns Oliver's secret, he has a valid point to be scared and angry. They made him into such a great guy that it felt like he *had* to die so 1. Oliver didn't look so bad in comparison and 2. Laurel/Oliver had any chance of survival.

 

And then his death helps Oliver want to become a better person, but as for the romance story, at that point it wasn't that Laurel had a much better match in Tommy than Oliver ever was, it was that Oliver also has a better match in Felicity.

Edited July 5, 2014 by dancingnancy

[catrox14]

I adored Tommy. I was devastated when they killed him off.  But I did love in a way that they flipped a lot of tropes about women being killed to fuel the hero's journey. Tommy was Oliver's fuel

[statsgirl]

I found an interesting parallel (which I never really noticed whilst watching the show) right here.

I don't think Stephen Amell gets nearly enough credit for his acting (unlike for his body).  Oliver is in pain in both those scenes, but with Felicity, it's out there, directed towards her and shared with her, while with Laurel it's all bottled up inside him.

 

Poor Tommy really got a rough shake from everyone. His wasn't psycho enough for his father (who abandoned him for years right after his mother died), he was never good enough for Laurel because he wasn't Oliver, and when he saved Oliver's ass by paying off the inspector to not look into the basement lair, Oliver though he was stealing money for drugs.  No wonder I like the AU fic where Tommy is still around and appreciated.

[Password]

Oliver tends to soften when he talks to Felicity, which is one thing I like about their dynamic. That scene in the basement is something I just can't take seriously collectively. Laurel's speech, Oliver's reaction to her everything. It leaves something to be desired.

[KirkB]

Now I'm imagining an AU where Tommy goes in to help Laurel and it's Laurel, not Tommy, who dies when the earthquake hits. Oliver could still change his killing ways, Tommy would still be around, and we could avoid a lot of the Lance family drama when Sara comes back as the Canary.

[calliope1975]

Now I'm imagining an AU where Tommy goes in to help Laurel and it's Laurel, not Tommy, who dies when the earthquake hits. Oliver could still change his killing ways, Tommy would still be around, and we could avoid a lot of the Lance family drama when Sara comes back as the Canary.

 

Back on TWOP, it took me 5 minutes to come up with, like, 10 different story ideas that could have been done if Tommy had lived and they'd killed off Laurel instead. I'm glad they didn't kill off a woman to further Oliver's manpain, but man, I'm so disappointed that Tommy isn't still alive.

[writersblock51]

@KirkB, there is a lot of fanfic with that scenario.  Too bad the show took the course they did.

[wonderwall]

@catrox14, I agree that the circumstances weren't the same, however, Oliver could've been softer with Laurel... He still knows he's about to die yet he can't look at his supposed love of his life in the eyes, yet he can't seem to stop looking at Felicity's. Oliver is annoyed, yes, but that annoyance should've been directed at both Digg and Felicity for letting Laurel into the lair and not Laurel (imo it still would've made sense if Oliver didn't act like he was in pain when Laurel hugged him). Again, I'm just trying to point out Stephen's acting choices between EBR and KC. It looks as though he's uncomfortable with KC, yet being 2 inches away from EBR more than 90% of the time comes more naturally to him. 

 

Also, IDK why some people (especially after watching that scene... especially KC) think that Laurel/Oliver are endgame. It was the opposite of romantic. It seemed like a woman trying to grasp onto a man and keeping him from becoming a better man. Laurel is literally his tether tying Oliver down to this inane idea she has of him (thus the I know you better than anyone speech). 

[FurryFury]

RE: Laurel/Tommy, it's actually a funny story - back when the show was just starting, I remember reading the description hinting at a love triangle between the main character, a girl he had cheated on years ago, and his best friend and thinking: "Oh, yet another CW love triangle. I'll probably be rooting for the best friend just in spite of what the show will be trying to make me do, because cheating is such a turn-off, plus I tend to cheer for the underdog". And then I've actually watched the premiere, and I found that I have zero interest in Laurel and anything surrounding her, because she just grated and was written terribly. However, the worst thing about her was her relationship with Oliver, so I'd probably be much, much more tolerant of her character had she remained with Tommy. That hook-up with Oliver at the end of the season was what put the final nail in Laurel's likability for me.

Edited July 6, 2014 by FurryFury

[Password]

I wish the writers took the time to make me understand what Laurel saw in Oliver in the first place. Because what they are doing is making her seem...stupid. The fact that she even wants him in her life baffles me. Particularly after his second round with Sara. Just whhhhy?

[catrox14]

 

gain, I'm just trying to point out Stephen's acting choices between EBR and KC. It looks as though he's uncomfortable with KC, yet being 2 inches away from EBR more than 90% of the time comes more naturally to him.

 

I understand what you are saying. I just disagree that this is at play in this scene.

 

I see no reason character-wise why Oliver should be soft with Laurel, especially here. Oliver doesn't have to comfort her when he's trying to decide about sacrificing himself for his city. They have been at odds for almost all of s2 so much so that Oliver chewed her out in that hallway scene. Whether one agrees with Oliver or not, the point is that they have not been close at all. To me the awkwardness in that scene is an extension of the awkward hug she gave him at Verdant after after she learned his secret and decided he was worthy of her love (/hork). I don't believe for a minute that Oliver is happy at all that Laurel knows his secret nor that she is there and in his face talking to him about how much she knows him. I think he played that exactly right character-wise.  And IMO even if Laurel is the ostensible love of his life, she's not right now and she crashed the party. He's not a happy camper.

 

SA clearly makes specific choices about Oliver with his mannerisms, his ticks, the way he speaks and carries himself. People behave differently with different people IRL, why wouldn't Oliver? Even moreso with Oliver, because he's keeping secrets from some characters and not others.  I understand that SA may be more at ease with EBR and David Ramsey because those characters spend more time together than Oliver and other characters (on the whole).  However... and this is a big however. I don't see these complaints about SA not having chemistry with anyone else in the cast that he spends any real time with on screen. So I might even lean towards the problem being that KC is the issue.  But I think this scene was meant to be awkward .

Edited July 6, 2014 by catrox14

[statsgirl]

I think that Oliver could have been softer with Laurel, even though she crashed the party and things had been awkward between them if Oliver still had love feelings towards her.  He might even have felt relief that finally he could let the walls down and be all of who he is with her, if he really thought about telling her every day.  But SA plays it as Oliver closed off and even a bit 'don't bother me right now', suggesting the OTP between them is over.

 

In any case the scene would have been awkward because Oliver was focused on Slade and he hadn't given permission for Laurel to be in the cave but SA is good enough that he could have put in undertones of relief that Laurel now knows and a bit of yearning for her but he doesn't.

[statsgirl]

I can imagine what Laurel saw in Oliver --  he was attractive, charismatic (with all the money), rich, and he liked spending money on good things, good food, good wine.  His parents were rich and very important people in Starling City, owning QC, running charity boards, having people suck up to them.  And even with the hair, Oliver was cute, and probably a sensualist.  Laurel came from a middle class background where they probably had to think twice about spending money and there was the expectation that she would help with the dishes and cleaning which Oliver didn't have to do.  It's doubtful she have got a car for her 18th birthday without earning the money herself..  And Laurel always liked nice things and to be the centre of attention.  That's what Oliver would give her, and if the cost was him cheating on her, she was willing to ignore that (as probably Moira was unhappy with Robert cheating on her but still not willing to divorce him).

 

Unfortunately that makes her out to be a shallow person.  Maybe she is.

[BkWurm1]

And Laurel always liked nice things and to be the centre of attention.  That's what Oliver would give her, and if the cost was him cheating on her, she was willing to ignore that (as probably Moira was unhappy with Robert cheating on her but still not willing to divorce him).

 

Unfortunately that makes her out to be a shallow person.  Maybe she is.

 

Early in season one Oliver (when warning Laurel to stay away from him) says Laurel always tried to see the best In him.  I have to assume that what he's referring to is her believing him when he fed her a pack of lies.  Ones like, "nothing happened"  "she came on to me"  "their lying cause their jealous" "It will never happen again"  ect...ect...  This fits with Sara mentioning the 8-10 girls they'd both seen him with and Laurel shutting her down with a "why can't you just be happy for me?"

 

I have to believe that Laurel was willingly blind to Oliver's habits, but not purposely looking the other way like maybe Moira was doing.   I tend to think Laurel just kept believing Oliver's lines and accepting his excuses and forgiving him when there were no excuses to make.  I'm not sure if that makes her real shallow or real dumb. 

[catrox14]

any case the scene would have been awkward because Oliver was focused on Slade and he hadn't given permission for Laurel to be in the cave but SA is good enough that he could have put in undertones of relief that Laurel now knows and a bit of yearning for her but he doesn'

 

 

For me, that's the crux of the scene and perhaps where we part company on our impressions of the scene. He wasn't being a dick to her.  Whether Oliver loves Laurel or not, IMO is irrelevant to that scene.  I'm not defending Lauriver in any way (do not want) and I could be totally wrong about my reading of that scene, but I think putting off the awkwardness and stand-offish behavior to only SA and KC's bad chemistry takes away from SA's performance in that scene. KC got to speechify. Oliver had to listen and defend his thinking to her. Oliver doesn't want to be there and didn't expect to be there. He's tranq'd up and can't think straight, I would imagine. IMO, he's not relieved that Laurel knows because now it's one more person he actively has to worry about being in real danger all the time and one more person with whom he's had a terrible relationship who knows his secret. Laurel has inserted herself into this part of his life without his invitation. That's not a control thing that's a superhero identity needs to be secret thing. So IMO even if he does love her, he's still gonna pissed off about it and show it

Edited July 6, 2014 by catrox14

[JayKay]

And I wonder if Oliver could also have been thinking that if Laurel found out, who else could have slipped through the cracks? How sloppy has he been? Who else could get hurt?

[statsgirl]

If Laurel actually believed Oliver's lies and his excuses, I'd say she was clueless; if she purposely looked the other way because she wanted him to stay with her, she was shallow.

[Tangerine]

I think that Oliver could have been softer with Laurel, even though she crashed the party and things had been awkward between them if Oliver still had love feelings towards her.  He might even have felt relief that finally he could let the walls down and be all of who he is with her, if he really thought about telling her every day.  But SA plays it as Oliver closed off and even a bit 'don't bother me right now', suggesting the OTP between them is over.

 

I tend to agree with this. If Oliver was still in love with her, then it would have made more sense for him to feel relieved that he'd no longer had to carry around this big secret around her. What's more telling to me is that in the Felicity/Oliver scene, they're standing really close to each other but they're not really physically touching at all (you only see after he leaves that she was holding onto his arm), yet that whole exchange feels a whole lot more genuine and intimate. While in Laurel and Oliver's scene, Laurel is HUGGING him and it still feels awkward and confrontational. 

 

If you compare Felicity and Laurel's characters at the first half of season 1, they both actually had fairly limited interactions with Oliver. Felicity mostly had scenes with Walter, and the few scenes she had with Oliver were very warm and genuine that it made me want to see more of them together. Whereas I felt every scene with Oliver and Laurel was tense and awkward and I just really wanted it to stop. 

[statsgirl]

I don't think that Oliver is being a dick to Laurel, I think SA is playing it that Laurel knowing is a relief because Oliver doesn't have to lie to her any  more, but it's a complication that he doesn't need and more importantly, doesn't want whereas as Diggle, Felicity and Sara knowing were all good things.

 

I think he felt the same about Roy pursuing who the Arrow was, a complication he didn't want but then he wasn't supposed to be in love with Roy.

Edited July 6, 2014 by statsgirl

[Sakura12]

I'm not sure if that makes her real shallow or real dumb.

 

Yet those are the choices we have to go with about Laurel and Oliver with what the show has given us. How do they expect anyone to buy that has some great love story? 

[Sakura12]

They've given us more reasons for why Sara the new character and Oliver were together over the supposed main love interest Laurel. They showed us that Sara the younger sister wasn't a delusional fool and knew exactly what kind of guy of Oliver was, they even told us she liked him because he was hot and liked to party like her. Then they went out of the way to tell us Sara liked Oliver and Laurel made sure her sister didn't have a chance to make a move by getting her in trouble. Even though their second try was completely rushed I could understand why they tried because of the show showing us the horrible traumas they share. That's a reason they shouldn't be together right now, however it make sense.

 

They we have Felicity who can make Oliver smile and that she's someone that Oliver wants in his life. They showed us time and again how much Oliver enjoys her company and how much she's helped him be the hero he wants to be. Felicity is his partner everywhere but his bed, which I don't believe he's ready for that yet, but again it makes sense.

 

Laurel as it's been written makes no sense as a romantic partner, she was either an idiot or delusional over their relationship. Having her keep spouting off that she knows Oliver better than anyone is not doing her any favors. Diggle's girlfriend probably knows Oliver better than Laurel. I don't remember did Laurel ever even try to figure out who the Hood was? Or was that just Quentin? They had Sara knowing Oliver was the vigilante before she even stepped foot back in town, (granted she has the knowledge of Shado and that Oliver is wearing her hood) but that showed that she knew the new Oliver pretty well. Also having Laurel all of sudden love Oliver because he's a hero is also not going to be a good move for her character. It just makes it seem even more that Laurel's shallow and only loved Oliver for his status, whether it's as the rich boy or Starling City's hero. Laurel does not know Oliver the man, she never did. 

Edited July 6, 2014 by Sakura12

[icandigit]

I could understand if Laurel decided to move on from Oliver, But, it appears that the show is implying that she hasn't. I never understood why she never seemed interested in getting to know who Oliver is now. If she's not gonna hate him, shouldn't she at least be a little intrigued. I just find her supposed interest but lack of interest in who Oliver is as a person kinda odd.

[dtissagirl]

Sometimes it feels like the EPs have a whole lot more of backstory clear in their heads, so they see a full story, but the audience doesn't because, well, we can't read their minds. And this is especially glaring with Laurel, and with Laurel/Oliver. Why is blue collar Laurel in the inner circle of billionaire douchebags in the first place? We're told over and over again that L/O are ~meant to be~, and that she knows him best, and that he survived the island for her... except we never saw how they met, or how they started dating, or why does it look like Laurel turned a blind eye to Oliver's cheating, while Sara knew about all these girls he was fooling around? We only ever see L/O in flashbacks to learn about all the shitty things Oliver did.

 

The whole idea of "show, not tell" has to exist all times for serialized television. Sci-fi/Fantasy/Superhero shows can get away with technobabble and exposition for the sake of saving some visual effects money, but you just can't TELL a relationship. The majority of the audience will watch each episode exactly once, and then not think about it at all until it's time for the next episode. Random lines of dialog will not stick unless they're the big stuff like "I love you" or "mwahahahaha I'm your secret father". But when you actually show the characters meeting, and becoming closer, and going through the growing pains of a relationship [romantic or not], that sticks with all viewers. Which is why Felicity/Oliver, and Team Arrow work so very well. We've seen the entire run of their relationships so far, and that is the only way to get invested in a story. We're only ever told stuff about Laurel/Oliver, and there is really no way to connect to that.

Edited July 7, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Ceylon5]

I think Laurel was smart enough to learn what she needed to be taught in order to be who Moira wanted her to be and more so, she's a known factor. A presumed "good influence" on Oliver despite that fact that rather than being under her influence, Oliver just lied and did what he wanted.  She also was someone Moira could influence without much trouble.  I say this as fact rather than speculation since if Moira can manipulate a city, she can handle Laurel.  Yes, I think Moira would have decided that Laurel suited her purpose just fine.

 

I'm so bummed that we're never going to get the chance to see Moira's reaction to Oliver dating Felicity (on the assumption that this will happen at some point). That would have been entertaining.  RIP Moira.

 

(ETA the quote of the post this thought followed from, which has been moved to the Laurel thread.)

Edited July 7, 2014 by Ceylon5

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note: A number of posts that were discussing Laurel's education and family social status - rather than relationships....have been moved to the Laurel topic.

 

Important Reminder: Please be mindful of what you are posting and where you are posting it. We are acutely aware that the new season is fast approaching and the forum will no doubt be extremely busy once it arrives. At that time, if this is still continuing en masse and ad infinitum, we will have no choice but to stop moving off-topic posts and start deleting them. We would rather avoid this outcome, therefore, your assistance in ensuring that your post is in the right place/relevant to the thread, will not only be appreciated but desirable to all concerned.

 

Thank you.

[Sakura12]

Taken from the Laurel thread.

Laurel and Oliver getting together in high school would go a long way in explaining why she's convinced she knows him best and why they both feel they're inevitable when to me they feel more like a bad habit than a grand romance I should be rooting for.

 

Being each others first everything, together so long that it's taken as a given by everyone would help explain so much and the writers could even have Laurel realise things have changed (she's in AA what better place for her to examine toxic behaviour patterns?) and create a new dynamic for them.

For me the ship has sailed on a Laurel/Oliver romance and Laurel=Black Canary but if she has to have screen time I'd rather it wasn't the blackhole of suck it's been for the last two seasons.

 

I don't think they were together all through High School though. With the Sara story she said she had a crush on Oliver and went to one of the parties he'd be at. Sara's 2 years younger than Laurel, so unless Sara was going to parties when she was 12. She had to at least be a Freshman in High School, making Laurel and Oliver Juniors when they started dating.

 

That story completely retconned the loved you half my life thing. The EP's ruined their own story by adding that one. At most they were together for 6 years, Junior year in High School until Laurel was a year out of college. Then we have to add in how many of those years was Oliver cheating on her. Didn't Sara say it was about 10 other girls. We can go with they broke up between those 6 years, making it even less time they were together. So where was the I loved you half my life from? Just to make us have to pretend that Oliver/Laurel have some grand epic love? When in reality that is not what we've been shown?

[scarynikki12]

Oliver was probably including the six years that had passed since the ship wreck.  They started dating in high school, continued in college, and Oliver elevated her onto a pedestal after the wreck out of guilt and needing something to hold on to.  Thus, they are now in their late twenties and it's been about 12 years since they first went out, so almost half his life.  "I've loved you half my life" just flows better than "I've loved you almost half my life".

[Sakura12]

The way they've shown it, it doesn't seem like there was much love actually there. Even now we can barely tell it was there. He never really loved her. He cheated on her constantly then put her on a pedestal because she was the only link back to his home. That's not love. Not having him say it would make the most sense. Which makes me think the only reason he said it was so we can think that they had this great epic love. 

[Morrigan2575]

I don't know if this has been posted before but it's a really interesting analysis of O/L in 1.23 vs O/F in 2.23.

http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/91274954628/moments-of-truth-olivers-s1-s2-queen-mansion-love

If I didn't know any better I'd swear @quarks wrote it.

[quarks]

Heh. No, that's not me. You can tell because all of the gifs are inserted properly :)

 

Very interesting analysis, though - thanks for sharing it here!

Edited July 9, 2014 by quarks

[Password]

Probably the quote that most resonated with me was

"By choosing the entryway of the Queen mansion, the same spot as the Laurel & Oliver scene from the Season 1 finale, the writers are hitting the reset button. They realize that Laurel & Oliver’s moment of truth fell short because it lacked total honesty."

That reset button being pressed in particular. That article? Blog? Was given deep thought.

[quarks]

What resonated with me was the admission that she'd forgotten all about the Oliver/Laurel mansion scene. So had I until I did my rewatch.

 

And even after rewatching, when someone here put up the Laurel/Oliver fanvids versus the Felicity/Oliver fanvids, what most struck me was that I'd forgotten just how often Laurel and Oliver have made out, hugged, and so on, in present timelines and flashbacks. These scenes just don't stick with me, so it's always good to have verification that it's not just me.

[Password]

I never "approved" of Laurel and Oliver at the end of s1 so I'm not surprised I can't remember it. Whereas Oliver and Felicity scenes I watch over and over.

[Luckylyn]

The funny thing for me is that I sorta remember the scene.  I totally remember Oliver being the first of three warnings to Laurel to stay out of the Glades but the kiss is a total blank in my mind.  All I knew was irritation because Laurel not listening to Liver, Moira, and Quintin helped get Tommy killed.  So that scene is one I hold against Laurel, but I don't' remember it accurately.   Meanwhile Oliver and Felicity just looking at each other never gets forgotten by me.

 

That blog reminded me of what a good couple Tommy/Laurel could have been.  Their scenes together resonated in a way Oliver/Laurel scenes don't. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Wow, I've forgotten about that hallway kiss, too. KC really wasn't kidding when she said she felt uncomfortable making out with SA, was she? For two people who just supposedly made love a few hours ago, Oliver and Laurel barely touch bodies when they kissed. I had to find the clip on YouTube, just in case that GIF in the blog post left out a more intimate angle but no.

[statsgirl]

I couldn't scrub the Oliver/Laurel scene out of my mind because I hated it so much in s1 that when I saw that they were doing it again with Felicity in Unthinkable, I (sliently) screamed "No! Don't do it!  Don't have a scene with Felicity there, not where you kissed Laurel and pledged yourself to her!"  I didn't want anything with the taint of Laurel anywhere near Felicity,

 

I really liked that blog post and I hope she's right about the endgame being changed.  I do think that she's giving the writers too much credit though.  They may have planned a reboot but putting it in the hallway of Queen Manor seems more dictated by plot (Slade's listening devices) than art.

  I totally remember Oliver being the first of three warnings to Laurel to stay out of the Glades

The Three Warnings of Laurel .... that's what happens when you don't listen to the ghosts sent to warn you.

 

Also, it emphasizes the contrast between Laurel and Felicity -- for Laurel three people told her is clear English what not to do and she still did it, whereas Felicity didn't need to be told but did what Oliver wanted her to do.

[quarks]

I don't think the setting was dictated so much by Plot or Art as it was by Budget.  That's a set that they don't have to build or do much decoration/rework for, thus why so many scenes get set in that entrance way even though really it's not the best place to be having these conversations. The Oliver/Felicity scene did require some lighting issues, but that's about it.  Having said that, there's no reason why budget constraints can't lead you to art. 

 

The main contrast between the scenes that I see, however, is why Oliver is saying what he's saying in both cases. There's a little bit of "let me say this just in case I die" in both scenes - but it's a lot stronger with Felicity. Malcolm's just trying to destroy a part of the city, not Oliver directly. Slade wants to hurt Oliver directly.  Oliver's not prepared to die at the end of the first season - he's not even considering this as a possibility. In the second season, he's assuming he might have to.  With Laurel, it's basically a "once I finish this last mission, I can stop being the vigilante and be with you instead and everything will be ok."  With Felicity, it's "I seriously need to you to stab my greatest enemy in the neck, thanks very much." In other words, with Laurel, he gives up the vigilantism/hero path for a regular life, and denying who he is; with Felicity, he's accepting who he is and staying on the hero route. 

 

And this show wants Oliver Queen to be a hero.

 

The second contrast is that the Laurel/Oliver scene takes place more or less outside the plot - it's another reason for Oliver to try to take down Malcolm and save the city, sure, but he's got plenty of motivation as it is. Remove that scene, and everything else in the episode is exactly the same, which is probably why even now, post the rewatch, although I know the scene happened and more or less what happened in it, I can't remember it clearly. The Oliver/Felicity scene is central to the plot.

[icandigit]

Oddly, that was one of the few scenes I liked Laurel in. She seemed vulnerable and sweet, almost like a different person.

[tv echo]

I don't know if this has been posted before but it's a really interesting analysis of O/L in 1.23 vs O/F in 2.23.

http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/91274954628/moments-of-truth-olivers-s1-s2-queen-mansion-love

If I didn't know any better I'd swear @quarks wrote it.

That analysis was great and makes a lot of sense (assuming the parallels were intentional).  Thanks for posting it.

Edited July 10, 2014 by tv echo

[CabotCove]

I wonder if one of the reasons Tommy seemed so much better for Laurel is because SA was playing Oliver as closed off and PTSD'd in the pilot and early episodes, and Tommy was fun and engaging, someone who lightened up the angry and obsessive Laurel.  Opposites work better as romantic partners on TV; I can see why someone coming to the show not having read the comics would see Tommy, who drops in on Laurel and tales her out for a break and makes her smile, would be a better romantic choice for her than Oliver.

 

 

To me Tommy was not without his faults, Oliver had the advantage of having come back as a changed man while Tommy was still in playboy days at the start of the show, he was originally meant to be a mirror of who and where Oliver was 5 years ago. Yes Oliver/Laurel is toxic but Tommy/Laurel was not that great either Imo, so I disagree Tommy was a better boyfriend/love interest material than Oliver is. The guy didn't want to do anything with his life, no ambition, no passion just wanting to party hard and spend dad's money. This is the place Oliver was 5 years ago, I would say it was a downgrade for Laurel. He also got really insecure, had a bad temper easily and some selfish tendencies.

 

He was a guy who could charm the pants out of the girl, but I dont think that necessarily makes him a better long term boyfriend, at least not the Tommy that was in most of the first season. Its like some girls staying with "bad boys" just because they are charming, good looking or funny,  when they don't  necessarily treat them well. In as much as Oliver has done some bad things to laurel, the "new" Ollie could admit his faults and apologies, It would take Tommy a little longer to realise and a little coercing to apologise.  As for opposites working better on TV, I for one am so tired of that cliche. I think any good and talented writer can make different kinds of relationships interesting and working.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Conell

[KirkB]

You're right that Tommy was a reflection of what Oliver was like pre-island, except that I don't think Tommy was ever anywhere near as bad as Oliver and he genuinely tried to change, in the first season, for Laurel. Whether Tommy was 'better' for Laurel or not is arguable, but I got the sense he really loved Laurel while Oliver didn't. The show tried to convince me otherwise but I never saw it.

[writersblock51]

I think Tommy was growing up and his relationship with Laurel had a LOT to do with that.  I believe he stood up to Malcolm largely because he know Laurel would back him up and support his decision.  Oliver's support helped him a lot, too.  But Tommy was always, in his core, an abandoned little boy.  I think Laurel understood that about him very much. 

Hence why I grew to dislike her sooooooooooo much when she waffled on him and hooked up, again, with Oliver.  And then when Tommy died.

 

That being said, I think Tommy and Laurel's relationship was still going through a LOT of growing pains.  Were they a full on healthy couple?  No, not at all.  But they seemed to have far healthier elements working in their favor that anything  Oliver and Laurel ever had or could have.  And Tommy knew that Oliver had cheated on her, often.  While Laurel may have dug her head in the sand about that, Tommy knew all about it.  He respected her far more than Oliver ever did/does.

[Sunshine]

Something that just occurred to me about the ILY scene...

 

When Slade thought he was dying, the last thing he said to Shado before Oliver injected him with the mirakuru was that he regretted not telling her how he really felt about her.  Oliver witnessed that.  Perhaps that is why he told Felicity how he felt about her?  He didn't know if either one of them would be getting out alive.

 

I think sometimes the parallels are intentional  Other times they are not.  I saw a gif on TUMBLR that compared some Island!Oliver and Felicity moments like stepping on the land mines.  It was tweeted to MG and asked if they were done intentionally.  He said no but pointed out that 7 of the 8 scenes were directed by the same person.  I think we spend more time analyzing scenes than the writers do.  

[writersblock51]

 

I think we spend more time analyzing scenes than the writers do.

 

I'd bet my house that we (and fans on Twitter and Tumblr) do.

[icandigit]

 

I think sometimes the parallels are intentional  Other times they are not.  I saw a gif on TUMBLR that compared some Island!Oliver and Felicity moments like stepping on the land mines.  It was tweeted to MG and asked if they were done intentionally.  He said no but pointed out that 7 of the 8 scenes were directed by the same person.  I think we spend more time analyzing scenes than the writers do.

Am I crazy. I don't know if I believe him. I'd want to ask the director. I just don't believe the TPTB about anything for some reason. It's like a reflex for me at this point.

Edited July 11, 2014 by icandigit

[Password]

The director is obviously a shipper.

[Sunshine]

Or we might have show visionaries with limited vision so they recycle the same scenes with different characters and don't realize they are doing it?  BTW, these weren't necessarily shipper scenes (LOL).   

[Password]

Indeed. But they are ironic similarities.

[apinknightmare]

Or we might have show visionaries with limited vision so they recycle the same scenes with different characters and don't realize they are doing it?  BTW, these weren't necessarily shipper scenes (LOL).   

 

I think when you write it's kind of easy to plagiarize yourself from time to time. They do repeat lines like, "You wouldn't be you if you didn't," and "We wouldn't be us if we didn't," things like that. So, repeating some wording is easy and probably inevitable. I think some of these parallels might have been accidental, but most of them have got to be on purpose.

 

Plus, would they let a director have creative control to the point where they'd allow him to insert parallels that weren't written in? 

Edited July 11, 2014 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

Everyone gets caught up repeatedly doing what has worked before. I think that's more likely than it was planned because this show?  Doesn't plan very well and often has no clue what it's really doing.

 

To me Tommy was not without his faults, Oliver had the advantage of having come back as a changed man while Tommy was still in playboy days at the start of the show, he was originally meant to be a mirror of who and where Oliver was 5 years ago. Yes Oliver/Laurel is toxic but Tommy/Laurel was not that great either Imo, so I disagree Tommy was a better boyfriend/love interest material than Oliver is. The guy didn't want to do anything with his life, no ambition, no passion just wanting to party hard and spend dad's money. This is the place Oliver was 5 years ago, I would say it was a downgrade for Laurel. He also got really insecure, had a bad temper easily and some selfish tendencies.

 

He was a guy who could charm the pants out of the girl, but I dont think that necessarily makes him a better long term boyfriend, at least not the Tommy that was in most of the first season. Its like some girls staying with "bad boys" just because they are charming, good looking or funny,  when they don't  necessarily treat them well. In as much as Oliver has done some bad things to laurel, the "new" Ollie could admit his faults and apologies, It would take Tommy a little longer to realise and a little coercing to apologise.  As for opposites working better on TV, I for one am so tired of that cliche. I think any good and talented writer can make different kinds of relationships interesting and working.

At the start of the show Tommy was like pre-island Oliver except for one big difference -- he truly loved Laurel and didn't want to hurt her.  Unlike Oliver, who always did what he wanted without thought of anyone else or any hurt it might cause, Tommy considered Laurel before his own wants.  He treated her very well, he arranged a fund-raiser for CNRI,  he brought her a Christmas present that was thoughtful rather than throwing money at her, and he supported her emotionally.

 

The measure of a relationship for me is whether the people make each other better or not.  Tommy made Laurel better by trying to help her and being a lover who cared about her and Laurel made Tommy better by supporting him emotionally and helping him stand up to his father.  By mid-season, Tommy was supporting himself financially and successfully running Oliver's club.  The only times I saw Tommy lose his temper was with his father, who repeatedly tricked him, and when he found out that Oliver was the Hood and had been hiding it from him.  Laurel's temper was worse and she lost it every time she thought someone wasn't paying enough attention to her, Tommy, Oliver, the hostess at a restaurant.

 

When Oliver and Laurel were together, they made each other worse. Oliver cheated on Laurel with a number of women and Laurel made herself willfully blind and never called him on it because she wanted to be Oliver Queen's girlfriend.  She pushed him too hard, as she later pushed Tommy too hard, but instead of telling her how he felt, Oliver cheated on her again.

With Tommy, Laurel was still pretty much of a bitch who mostly cared about herself (e.g. she was mad at Tommy for not being around when her mother was in town when Tommy was dealing with learning Oliver was the Hood) but at least she was a better person than when she was with Oliver.