S05.E17: Kapiushon

[Hiveminder]

Can Oliver Queen just retire to a nice house in a small town where no one knows him and everyone leaves him alone to heal, and cook, and raise rescue dogs? Can we let him do that, please?

Oliver may have bought what Chase was selling, but I didn't. Everything Chase said about Oliver's motivations applied far more to Chase than to Oliver. 

[AudienceofOne]

3 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

Can Oliver Queen just retire to a nice house in a small town where no one knows him and everyone leaves him alone to heal, and cook, and raise rescue dogs? Can we let him do that, please?

Oliver may have bought what Chase was selling, but I didn't. Everything Chase said about Oliver's motivations applied far more to Chase than to Oliver. 

Yes, I wanted Oliver to point that out. Chase is the one who's given himself a mission and used it as an excuse to randomly slaughter people. Not Oliver. Which would be fine except all the flashbacks this season have supported Chase's interpretation of the character. That's what's really pissing me off. If it was just Chase saying it, I'd be waiting for Oliver to realise that he's full of crap. But it's the show that's saying it. And that is kind of pissing me off.

The irony is that if Oliver was the person the show is trying to say he is then what Chase did wouldn't have worked on him. It's only working because he isn't someone who enjoys killing people and because he's been irreparably damaged by all the things he had to do to survive. 

[Hiveminder]

12 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

Yes, I wanted Oliver to point that out. Chase is the one who's given himself a mission and used it as an excuse to randomly slaughter people. Not Oliver. Which would be fine except all the flashbacks this season have supported Chase's interpretation of the character. That's what's really pissing me off. If it was just Chase saying it, I'd be waiting for Oliver to realise that he's full of crap. But it's the show that's saying it. And that is kind of pissing me off.

The irony is that if Oliver was the person the show is trying to say he is then what Chase did wouldn't have worked on him. It's only working because he isn't someone who enjoys killing people and because he's been irreparably damaged by all the things he had to do to survive. 

I haven't really been paying too much attention to the flash backs, but what I have seen doesn't support the view that Oliver likes killing people. I see someone who's lost himself a little (or a lot) and gone too far, but isn't enjoying anything he's doing. Does Oliver feel some kind of rush when he kills someone based on adrenaline and a feeling of safety that comes from having defeated his enemy and knowing that this person can no longer hurt him that he has confused with enjoyment? I can believe that. He spent a very long time being thrust into painful and life threatening situations without little to no control over anything. It makes sense that he would feel some kind of relief when killing because it gives him back a little control. 

It's like a battered wife or an abused child who finally manages to successfully fight back against their abuser. That moment of victory feels good, but it doesn't mean they enjoy beating or killing their husband or parent. It means they enjoy being safe, being the one in control for once. 

I'm hoping that the show will ultimately show something in line with that. 

[tv echo]

This was an excellent episode, but very difficult to watch. It was liking drinking bitter medicine - not enjoyable but necessary.  Kudos to SA and JS for their terrific acting performances.

My concluding impression:  In S1, when Oliver first returned to Starling City, he was unconsciously using his father's crusade as an excuse to kill (bad) people and lying to himself and others about his motive. However, in the years since then, it's become a real crusade - in large part, thanks to his association with Diggle and Felicity.

So yes, he may have liked killing in the early seasons when he was a very traumatized guy with a lot of repressed anger, but he's no longer that man. Still, he needed to realize that truth about his earlier self - and he still needs to realize the truth about his present self (that he doesn't enjoy killing now) - in order to move forward in the present (finally) into becoming a genuine hero.

ETA: The difference from previous seasons is that, even though Oliver previously acknowledged that he was a killer, he has always deluded himself into believing he was killing for a good cause in S1.

Edited March 23, 2017 by tv echo

[AudienceofOne]

I want to see that but they spend too much time having him and other characters use the word 'monster' or talk about him losing himself to darkness or destroying himself through violence. The whole "I need another persona to contain the darkness" thing buys directly into this idea that he has an inner monster that wants to kill and that enjoys killing and torturing poeple. It just feels like too much of a retcon to me. And it's simplistic because it negates his trauma. 

5 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I'm hoping that the show will ultimately show something in line with that. 

Me too but they've spent an awful lot of time this season telling us something different.

3 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Still, he needed to realize that truth about his earlier self in order to move forward in the present (finally) into becoming a genuine hero.
 

This is one of the problems with having a successful TV show. To my mind, he did this last season when he mobilised the city against Dhark and inspired them as Oliver Queen. But the show is still going so they have to manufacture a reason to extend his growth into a hero. It's a typical TV trap.

[tv echo]

[ladylaw99]

What can I say that others haven't already said.

 It was a good ep.  I am still not a big fan of the flashbacks - can't wait until they are done, but the last 1/2 was good.  Not enough Diggle, Felicity and present day.  I would have like to see them in panic at failing to find Oliver.

JS and SA did a wonderful job last night.  I believed what they were selling except the "like to kill".  The look on Diggle and Felicity's faces were sad to see.  They know Oliver is broken.  First time this season I am excited to see the rest of the season.

oh, Evelyn can go anytime. She sucks. MM did a good job tonight.

[Primetimer]

Most of the episode takes place in flashback, and that means there's plenty of Russian beefcake to go around.

View the full article

[GHScorpiosRule]

This is utterly shallow of me, but I can't help it-I much prefer when Stephen uses his lower octave "raspy growly" voice, than his normal speaking voice (I'm assuming), because the latter makes him sound like a lightweight and a wuss. So if Show could go back and have his dark and menacing voice in the intro, ("My name is Oliver Queen...") my ears and innards would really appreciate it.???

What? I said/admitted  I was being shallow!

And as has been mentioned before, Oliver was really suffering from major PTSD in season one, so I don't accept that he enjoyed killing the people he did-and his first instinct wasn't to kill-he gave those murdering, greed for profit/money/didn't give any fucks about how many people they fucked over/screwed/stole retirement savings from ASSHOLES and criminals a chance to do right or fix it, and when they didn't or tried to kill him, then his killing/survival instincts (which were cultivated and honed during his Island years) kicked in, and he...killed. I saw no pleasure or even satisfaction on Oliver's face in those moments. And I pay attention to details like that.

So Guggenheim can just STFU as he tries to explain retcon what I saw with my own eyes in season one, to "prove" Chase was right, and that Oliver's love of killing was this sekrit he had suppressed and refused to acknowledge.????

And to end on a shallow note, while it was difficult to watch Oliver being tortured, I also found myself rewinding so I could enjoy Stephen's verrrrrry fiiiiiiiine and glistening physical form! It may have not looked as sculpted as it has been in the past (I couldn't see his six? Pack abs delineated-but that could have been my crappy teevee in my bedroom (still bedridden and recovering from surgery and doped up)), but I have noooooo complaints in how he looked-plus the mussy hair* too!???

*'Tis a well known fact I have a weakness for my heroes when they're all beat up, bloody and mussy looking-which amps up their hawt factor for me! Yes, I'm a sick and shallow wench. Just ask @BkWurm1!!??

Edited March 23, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[Trisha]

So MG is leaning into the "serial killer" thing? Ugh. Serial killers are not just someone who's killed more than three people; they are someone who kills because psychological gratification is their main motivation.  I really, really hope someone like Dig or Felicity voices an argument that Oliver didn't like killing in season 1, he just grasped onto the thing that let him feel like he was back in control. 

On the plus side, I think this is going to reinstate his "no kill" rule. And this time he might actually stick to it.

[ladylaw99]

MG is confused - Chase is a serial killer not Oliver. Why am I not surprised.

[Chaser]

If they are saying S5 Oliver is a return to S1 Oliver, then LL continues to bring out the worse. 

Edited March 23, 2017 by Chaser

[bijoux]

I'm still sticking to Guggenheim promoting this because he doesn't want to spoil the show eventually, and I think sooner rather than later, revealing that no, Oliver is not a happy go lucky serial killer, and has either a) been brainwashed by Chase into believing it (in which case, kudos to Slade for succeeding where the LoA had failed), or b) confusing the sense of feeling safety after killing a very, very bad person with liking killing people as has been theorized in this thread.

[Hiveminder]

2 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I'm still sticking to Guggenheim promoting this because he doesn't want to spoil the show eventually, and I think sooner rather than later, revealing that no, Oliver is not a happy go lucky serial killer, and has either a) been brainwashed by Chase into believing it (in which case, kudos to Slade for succeeding where the LoA had failed), or b) confusing the sense of feeling safety after killing a very, very bad person with liking killing people as has been theorized in this thread.

I honestly think this is where they're going, because the alternative is ridiculous for a show about a comic book hero on the CW, but I'm afraid they're not going to do it well. This show has screwed things up before. 

I wonder if Chase realizes that everything he says about Oliver also (or only, for those of us who aren't psychopaths and/or don't hate Oliver Queen) applies to him? Does he realize that showing Oliver the 'truth' about himself is just an excuse Chase made up so he could go around killing innocent people? Does/would he care?

I don't buy that Oliver created Chase. Oliver was just a trigger. If it hadn't been Oliver killing his dad it would have been something else. Chase was just waiting for an excuse. That's where I think the Oliver created Prometheus idea falls a little short. 

[calliope1975]

I don't get Evelyn's motivation for going along with this. If she truly believes he's a serial killer (gah, even typing that makes me feel dumb) why wouldn't she expect him to shank her right away? If she knows he's isn't and is just cool with torturing him, what does she think of her buddy Chase who's killed a bunch of people indiscriminately?

[tv echo]

Keeping careful track of tenses...

• Oliver wanted to kill vs. Oliver wants to kill.
• Oliver liked killing vs. Oliver likes killing.

Chase was and is a serial killer.

[bijoux]

3 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I don't get Evelyn's motivation for going along with this. If she truly believes he's a serial killer (gah, even typing that makes me feel dumb) why wouldn't she expect him to shank her right away? If she knows he's isn't and is just cool with torturing him, what does she think of her buddy Chase who's killed a bunch of people indiscriminately?

My reasoning currently is that Evelyn has been more than a little affected by HIVE and her crazy was simply given the chance to flourish once she met Chase. Like, I actually believe the part about her being locked and beaten for weeks wasn't fabrication, but that it actually seemed logical to the two of them and they did it almost exactly like they told Oliver.

[leopardprint]

10 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Keeping careful track of tenses...

• Oliver wanted to kill vs. Oliver wants to kill.
• Oliver liked killing vs. Oliver likes killing.

Chase was and is a serial killer.

I'm pretty sure Chase knows, accepts and embraces that he's an unrepentant serial killer. He wants Oliver to do the same. I think Evelyn is probably supposed to have Stockholm Syndrome if they care enough to spend any time on her motivations. 

Edited March 23, 2017 by leopardprint

[tv echo]

I suspected that Evelyn wasn't dead (when Chase 'broke her neck'), but I was hoping the reveal would turn out to be that she was Chase's sister... that she lied about her parents' deaths last season, and that her appearance last year and joining Team Arrow was all part of Chase's plan.

Edited March 23, 2017 by tv echo

[Trisha]

33 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I'm still sticking to Guggenheim promoting this because he doesn't want to spoil the show eventually, and I think sooner rather than later, revealing that no, Oliver is not a happy go lucky serial killer

I think this is probably true but man, what a risky way to promote the show. I can see letting the show speak for itself, but to actually tweet out that Oliver is a serial killer? Yikes. I'm ok with Oliver believing that; I'm much less ok with the showrunner/writers believing that. 

[catrox14]

59 minutes ago, tv echo said:

So Guggie really is playing this straight and he does think Oliver is a serial killer?! This is so goddamn stupid. Fuck off, Guggenheim.

There is huge difference between Oliver killing to survive or killing because he was saving the world from bad guys or even getting a bit of a rush from knowing he took down some bad guys and made them suffer a little for it vs killing  to sate his own bloodlust, which is what calling him a serial killer implies. He's implying that all along Oliver was really a dark evil person. Being a douchey,   unfaithful asshat is not the same goddamn thing as being a serial killer in waiting.

This is a horrible retcon and borderline character assassination of Oliver Queen. How are they going to go from this to the Green Arrow that we have now?

It's one thing to start a series like Dexter where the premise is clear. That Dexter sates his need to kill by killing other killers. Oliver had no such need. What the fuck?

Someone's gonna need to talk me off the ledge here.

[AudienceofOne]

I knew this was going to happen the minute Oliver got accused of coming into Season 1 with a 'kill list' and nobody argued - including him. I watched Season 1. The 'list' was NOT a kill list. Repeating this theme does not make it so.

[tangerine95]

MG has weird ways of talking about the show as much as WM does imo. I just remember how when the interviews for the havenrock stuff were coming out, they made it sound like they were going to blame it on Felicity and act like she killed people instead of DD. And then it wasn't like that at all on the show and they pissed people off for no good reason. I think this will be something similar and we will get Oliver or someone else actually saying Oliver isn't what Chase is convincing him he is. 

I can buy that he maybe enjoyed the control and the whole releasing the monster thing by killing while he was in the bratva and in season 1 but I don't think his mission was just about giving himself an outlet. I do think he did it for his father tho probably not in the way Robert would have wanted. And then after season 1 and getting closer to Felicity and Digg, it became about saving the city and being a hero. So the confession doesn't really make me see Oliver all that differently. 

[finnaire]

I do think they're making a distinction between what Oliver thinks about himself versus what the audience has seen him to be. 

He started out as a naive, harmless, helpless kid who was put through continued physical, mental and emotional torture and abuse, frequently on the edge of life and death. I can see where there would come a point, after acquiring the training, knowledge and skills, that he would take pleasure in the fact he could defend himself, finally have the upper hand and fight with a confidence that he could beat (kill) whoever attacked him.  He sees everyone as a target and takes pleasure in knowing he can kill them if he wants to/has to. He doesn't understand that it's a product of his experience and not some innate evil force. Putting a name to it (monster) and subjugating it (hood) creates almost a split personality and a way for him to cope with what he’s done and can do.  

On a related note, who taught him how to fillet? Waller or Talia? He mentioned something about Mongolia and I thought it was a reference to Talia, but I'm not sure. And, thank you show for not showing that. The handy, white sheet of convenience was greatly appreciated.

[Midnight Lullaby]

SA also said in a interview that there was a part of Oliver that liked to kill in season 1 so I guess they are selling that from the point they are now in the FBs until a portion of S1 Oliver liked it. Now I don't remember season 1 that well anymore but that wasn't the impression I got. Still I guess I could buy that at his lowest Oliver was in such pain that it felt good to make people that in his eyes deserved to suffer, suffer. If that was the intention they should have presented the conflict in season 1 and explore his mental state more..now it feels more like a retcon. Also MG reduces it to "Oliver was a serial killer" and that is just wrong to me. If they want to explore such a complicated situation then they need to do it for real.

[tv echo]

Some 517 info that was live-tweeted by Brian Ford Sullivan (co-writer of this episode) last night...

[bethy]

I can see that Oliver might have had a sense of satisfaction in killing in season one, particularly in killing the people who were bad guys and on the list - satisfaction from fulfilling his father's mission, satisfaction for punishing bad people after he himself (and Sara and Shado) had been hurt so badly by bad people. And I think that was portrayed to an extent in the first season - his practicality about killing, his literally marking people of the list. But "enjoying" killing? No.

I can see, though, too, that poor, traumatized Oliver (both in the past and in the present with the torture he'd endured from Chase) might believe that that satisfaction translates to liking or wanting to kill. But it doesn't for me. And if the season ends on the conclusion that Oliver has somehow been a serial killer all this time, I'm going to be very disappointed/ragey. 

[calliope1975]

Forgetting that I've hated 95% of this season, this was a rough episode that I really don't think I'll be picking up the DVD set to see even rougher scenes that S&P said was too much.

[arjumand]

9 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

MG has weird ways of talking about the show as much as WM does imo. I just remember how when the interviews for the havenrock stuff were coming out, they made it sound like they were going to blame it on Felicity and act like she killed people instead of DD. And then it wasn't like that at all on the show and they pissed people off for no good reason. I think this will be something similar and we will get Oliver or someone else actually saying Oliver isn't what Chase is convincing him he is. 

I can buy that he maybe enjoyed the control and the whole releasing the monster thing by killing while he was in the bratva and in season 1 but I don't think his mission was just about giving himself an outlet. I do think he did it for his father tho probably not in the way Robert would have wanted. And then after season 1 and getting closer to Felicity and Digg, it became about saving the city and being a hero. So the confession doesn't really make me see Oliver all that differently. 

I'm going to hold on to everything you've written with both hands, because I need to believe it - this whole "Oliver is a serial killer / no, he was a serial killer" is just pissing me off beyond belief.

Oliver HAS NEVER BEEN A SERIAL KILLER. He was not presented as such in Season 1, and no amount of retconning will convince me that he was. I mean, seriously - MG and co. are aware DVD boxsets exist, yes?

So I am hoping this is just a big-ass fake out, especially as what's really bothering me is this gentler, kinder Bratva bullshit. So, this is an alternate reality Bratva, without human trafficking and sex-trade? Are we all on Earth -billion, where up is down?

Re. the episode - it was very well-acted by SA. It was clear that Oliver broke, and it was very painful to watch. Evelyn can fall into a sinkhole for all I care.

[tv echo]

Madison McLaughlin's comments on this episode...

[leopardprint]

41 minutes ago, bethy said:

And if the season ends on the conclusion that Oliver has somehow been a serial killer all this time, I'm going to be very disappointed/ragey. 

I think they are playing it fast and loose with the definition of serial killer.  In one sense he was a serial killer in S1, he had a specific type of victim he went after, people on the list who committed some kind of financial crimes, and he killed more than 2 people. However, the only psychological gratification he got from it was a need for control as stated above and he's displayed a sense of remorse and guilt for what's he done. I think my problem with this storyline is Oliver has always been shown to be pretty self-aware about this. From S1-S4 I don't think he really sugarcoated his motivations until the beginning of S5. Also they are throwing Felicity and Diggle under the bus with this too since they've been helping him from the start.

Finally, S5 Oliver is very dumb, Chase probably could have convinced him he was a potted plant. 

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

So Guggie really is playing this straight and he does think Oliver is a serial killer?! This is so goddamn stupid. Fuck off, Guggenheim.

There is huge difference between Oliver killing to survive or killing because he was saving the world from bad guys or even getting a bit of a rush from knowing he took down some bad guys and made them suffer a little for it vs killing  to sate his own bloodlust, which is what calling him a serial killer implies. He's implying that all along Oliver was really a dark evil person. Being a douchey,   unfaithful asshat is not the same goddamn thing as being a serial killer in waiting.

This is a horrible retcon and borderline character assassination of Oliver Queen. How are they going to go from this to the Green Arrow that we have now?

It's one thing to start a series like Dexter where the premise is clear. That Dexter sates his need to kill by killing other killers. Oliver had no such need. What the fuck?

Someone's gonna need to talk me off the ledge here.

Honestly I don't think MG knows the definition of a serial killer or the mindset behind it.  So his tweet is just his ignorance and Not, I'm sure, what the show is selling.  

 

**Or yeah, what Leopardprint said.

Edited March 23, 2017 by BkWurm1

[DeadZeus]

I already called it with this season's episode 9 the writers were wrongly demonising S1 Oliver as a true cold blooded killer. Even though that's not true at all. Again, Unlike Chase, Oliver only killed bad ppl. I was thinking that there was no way the writers would let Prometheus win by making Oliver believe he's a serial killer.... I was really thinking that at this point Oliver would realise he's not the bad guy but ppl Chase and DD are because they kill for selfish needs. But.. The writers rly want to hammer in the fact that Oliver was a coldblooded killer... really pisses me off!! Can't they let Oliver mentally beat the villain for once! By staying true to himself and making the Villain question his motives for once!!

 

Also, I seem to be the only one that's upset about the fact GA is barely making any appearence this halfseason.. Again not in this episode and judging by the trailer not in the next one either... When the season started they gave GA more badass moment and i was excited to see more of it but like i said.. GA appearence is rediculously low this half of the season.

[MissLucas]

Well, that was a great episode. I always knew those Russian flashbacks would get us somewhere far more interesting than the endless island stuff. Loved Anatoli being the one who warned Oliver about the path he was on. Now can Thea come back and put an arrow or two into Evelyn?

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

SA also said in a interview that there was a part of Oliver that liked to kill in season 1 so I guess they are selling that from the point they are now in the FBs until a portion of S1 Oliver liked it. Now I don't remember season 1 that well anymore but that wasn't the impression I got. Still I guess I could buy that at his lowest Oliver was in such pain that it felt good to make people that in his eyes deserved to suffer, suffer. If that was the intention they should have presented the conflict in season 1 and explore his mental state more..now it feels more like a retcon. Also MG reduces it to "Oliver was a serial killer" and that is just wrong to me. If they want to explore such a complicated situation then they need to do it for real.

That was never the case with Oliver in s1. Never. It was NEVER a kill list.  The preamble for every episode was as follows

Quote

"My name is Oliver Queen. For five years, I was stranded on an island with only one goal-- Survive. Now I will fulfill my father's dying wish-- to use the list of names he left me and bring down those who are poisoning my city. To do this, I must become someone else. I must become something else.

The book had names of the people that were connected to the rotten shenanigans afoot in Starling City, people who had caused harm to OTHERS and people that Oliver was going to take down be it putting them in jail or if absolutely necessary, killing them but killing was never his first choice when he got back to Starling City. He had major PTSD which caused him to react inappropriately to situations that weren't life threatening. But NOPE not a serial killer.

He killed one dude in the pilot who was part of the gang that tranq'd and kidnapped Tommy and him and were  in the process of torturing him to find out what he knew about what Robert knew. And that guy killed someone else. So, I'm going with that being self defense. The other time he killed a potential "innocent" was in The Return and he killed the drug dealer at Tommy's party but that dude pulled a switchblade on Oliver and threatened to kill him. There was no planning of that killing and once that dude pulled the switchblade I think it goes into the self-defense category. Still not a serial killer.  

Of all the people, Oliver has actually killed himself I cannot think of ONE that was an innocent. Other people that died because they were connected with Oliver in some way but they were not people Oliver killed himself.

So, really Guggenheim, IF he is playing this a real suggestion that Oliver is a monster serial killer, well he's off his rocker.

Maybe this is some kind of meta joke about Oliver's picture with Robert in which much of the audience thought he looked like Dexter, the serial killer? If it is, it's not funny, Guggie.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, bethy said:

I can see that Oliver might have had a sense of satisfaction in killing in season one, particularly in killing the people who were bad guys and on the list - satisfaction from fulfilling his father's mission, satisfaction for punishing bad people after he himself (and Sara and Shado) had been hurt so badly by bad people. And I think that was portrayed to an extent in the first season - his practicality about killing, his literally marking people of the list. But "enjoying" killing? No.

I can see, though, too, that poor, traumatized Oliver (both in the past and in the present with the torture he'd endured from Chase) might believe that that satisfaction translates to liking or wanting to kill. But it doesn't for me. And if the season ends on the conclusion that Oliver has somehow been a serial killer all this time, I'm going to be very disappointed/ragey. 

I mentioned this in the spoiler discussion that this is very reminiscent of Dean Winchester saying he "liked" torturing people in Hell. Well he only did that after years of his own suffering. He described "Liking" and "enjoying" it because he felt his own pain slip away when he hurt someone else. So the RELIEF is what he described as liking which maybe be true, but that is a whole different thing than what "liking" torturing or in Oliver's case, killing implies.

So I can see a case that Oliver feeling any relief of his own suffering or any kind of satisfaction at defeating the enemy is LIKING it which IF THEY MAKE IT CLEAR that was NEVER actually the case but Oliver's own warped psyche thinking of it that way, fine I'll accept this. But otherwise, NO. This is some bullshit retcon.

[Midnight Lullaby]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That was never the case with Oliver in s1. Never. It was NEVER a kill list.  The preamble for every episode was as follows

The book had names of the people that were connected to the rotten shenanigans afoot in Starling City, people who had caused harm to OTHERS and people that Oliver was going to take down be it putting them in jail or if absolutely necessary, killing them but killing was never his first choice when he got back to Starling City. He had major PTSD which caused him to react inappropriately to situations that weren't life threatening. But NOPE not a serial killer.

He killed one dude in the pilot who was part of the gang that tranq'd and kidnapped Tommy and him and were  in the process of torturing him to find out what he knew about what Robert knew. And that guy killed someone else. So, I'm going with that being self defense. The other time he killed a potential "innocent" was in The Return and he killed the drug dealer at Tommy's party but that dude pulled a switchblade on Oliver and threatened to kill him. There was no planning of that killing and once that dude pulled the switchblade I think it goes into the self-defense category. Still not a serial killer.  

Of all the people, Oliver has actually killed himself I cannot think of ONE that was an innocent. Other people that died because they were connected with Oliver in some way but they were not people Oliver killed himself.

So, really Guggenheim, IF he is playing this a real suggestion that Oliver is a monster serial killer, well he's off his rocker.

Maybe this is some kind of meta joke about Oliver's picture with Robert in which much of the audience thought he looked like Dexter, the serial killer? If it is, it's not funny, Guggie.

MG has NOT a way with words. Maybe a more attentive person would have corrected the person he replied to.

I know what was the premise of S1 and no one, not even MG, was saying Oliver liked to kill innocent people. What the writers and SA are trying to sell is that when he killed a bad guy part of him felt satisfaction. That's what we were discussing. I think they didn't write S1 with this idea in mind so I didn't see Oliver being happy about what he did, but a lot of self loathing. They wrote the FBs of this episode with this idea in mind and imo you can tell the difference between them and season 1. If I want to say it's not a retcon I can try to say that at his lowest point it felt good to him to kill because he gave him control, or he thought he was bringing justice to SC or some other reason..still I have to say that knowing I didn't see it on screen in S1. I have to imagine it because it wasn't showed.

Edited March 23, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[AudienceofOne]

Been a while since I watched S1 but I seem to remember the very first episode he manifestly did not kill Adam Hunt. Weirdly, Adam still got crossed off the "kill list" despite not being dead. He did kill people that episode but they had kidnapped him and Tommy. Yes, he didn't have to kill them and only did it to protect his secret. That makes him a killer and nobody is arguing he's not. But he did it robotically, as though he was someone suffering from PTSD not as though he was glad to have the opportunity. 

From memory, I don't think he killed the second or third guy on the list either. He got a confession I think and gave it to the police?

[Hiveminder]

6 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

Been a while since I watched S1 but I seem to remember the very first episode he manifestly did not kill Adam Hunt. Weirdly, Adam still got crossed off the "kill list" despite not being dead. He did kill people that episode but they had kidnapped him and Tommy. Yes, he didn't have to kill them and only did it to protect his secret. That makes him a killer and nobody is arguing he's not. But he did it robotically, as though he was someone suffering from PTSD not as though he was glad to have the opportunity. 

From memory, I don't think he killed the second or third guy on the list either. He got a confession I think and gave it to the police?

Didn't he imply at the beginning of the Christmas episode that he barely even had to threaten one guy, just show up? He must have been so disappointed when he didn't even get to maim him a little. /sarcasm 

Chase should have been the son of a random security guard, not one of the guys on the list. He'd still be an evil psycho, but his argument would be slightly more legitimate. 

[catrox14]

41 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

What the writers and SA are trying to sell is that when he killed a bad guy part of him felt satisfaction. That's what we were discussing.

I know. I'm discussing the same thing and pointing out why no matter what retcon they created now, that was NEVER implied in s1.  Oliver did not take pleasure in killing. He did it because he thought it was the only option at times. That's my point.  SA saying NOW that Oliver liked killing in s1, does not match with the way he played Oliver nor how any of it was shown.

[apinknightmare]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oliver did not take pleasure in killing

I think there's a difference between liking it and taking pleasure in it. Taking pleasure in it indicates he enjoyed it/looked forward to it/had fun doing it, which I don't think was implied at all. Liking it could simply mean that he felt satisfied at removing a threat, or being in control, or taking down an enemy. It's been a while since I've watched the first season, but I don't think that's necessarily a retcon.

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

Yes, he didn't have to kill them and only did it to protect his secret. That makes him a killer and nobody is arguing he's not. But he did it robotically, as though he was someone suffering from PTSD not as though he was glad to have the opportunity. 

He and Tommy were kidnapped. Their lives were being threatened; they were being held at gunpoint and Oliver was being tortured. He was fighting back with the skills he learned either on the island or with Bratva. He then gave chase to go after the dudes that had just tortured him. IMO that still counts as self defense. But I can see where others might disagree.

But IMO no matter how they try to slice it, it's not being a serial killer.

[Linderhill]

I don't watch Arrow (well, I think I've seen 2 episodes) but that photo of Dolph looks like he's morphing into a Hexen/Zauberbiest from Grimm.

[Bats27]

I'm pretty sure that Oliver is conning Chase. He doesn't really believe it, he's just pretending to for now. At least that's what it logically be.

Honestly, I cannot think of a single person that Oliver killed in Season 1 who was completely innocent. Nor did he ever seem to be enjoying it. He simply saw it as a necessary evil.

Oh and Evelyn is back, along with her completely nonsensical motivations. Again, the girl who hates Oliver because he's a "serial killer" is working for an even WORSE serial killer, who HAS killed innocent people. Is she meant to come across as this stupid, or is it just bad writing?

[Trisha]

14 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I think there's a difference between liking it and taking pleasure in it. Taking pleasure in it indicates he enjoyed it/looked forward to it/had fun doing it, which I don't think was implied at all. Liking it could simply mean that he felt satisfied at removing a threat, or being in control, or taking down an enemy. It's been a while since I've watched the first season, but I don't think that's necessarily a retcon.

I think so too but SA actually uses the word "pleasure" when talking about this episode in his EW interview: “there was an element of Oliver that we met in season 1 that took a little bit of pleasure in snapping somebody’s neck.”

It feels like what's on the show isn't really matching up to what they're trying to sell off-screen, which I hope is not an indication of what's to come.

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I think there's a difference between liking it and taking pleasure in it. Taking pleasure in it indicates he enjoyed it/looked forward to it/had fun doing it, which I don't think was implied at all. Liking it could simply mean that he felt satisfied at removing a threat, or being in control, or taking down an enemy. It's been a while since I've watched the first season, but I don't think that's necessarily a retcon.

I watched s1 again about 3 weeks ago, so it's pretty fresh in my mind.

SA is using the words himself to describe Oliver's mindset in S1. And it's a complete disconnect with how SA played Oliver and how the narrative told Oliver's story in S1. It's a huge reach and I can't understand why they are doing this to Oliver.  I can't see this as anything but a big retcon right now. It's truly disappointing.

I made another post upthread in which I draw a parallel between Oliver here and Dean Winchester. 

The problem is that in both cases the words "Liking" or "Liked" is far too simplistic and reductive to something that is far more complex.  It's implying something much darker, sinister and malevolent than has been shown to be true with Oliver in s1. 

Quoting myself. 

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I mentioned this in the spoiler discussion that this is very reminiscent of Dean Winchester saying he "liked" torturing people in Hell. Well he only did that after years of his own suffering. He described "Liking" and "enjoying" it because he felt his own pain slip away when he hurt someone else. So the RELIEF is what he described as liking which maybe be true, but that is a whole different thing than what "liking" torturing or in Oliver's case, killing implies.

So I can see a case that Oliver feeling any relief of his own suffering or any kind of satisfaction at defeating the enemy is LIKING it which IF THEY MAKE IT CLEAR that was NEVER actually the case but Oliver's own warped psyche thinking of it that way, fine I'll accept this. But otherwise, NO. This is some bullshit retcon.

Edited March 23, 2017 by catrox14
clarifying thoughts

[TwistedandBored]

For such a well acted episode, it bored me to tears. 

[RobertDeSneero]

Saying that killing is ok because they weren't innocent is like saying that torture is ok if it's done on terrorists.  I don't think it matters how bad his victims were.  The question is if he had options other than killing and how hard he looked for those options.  Did he default to killing as his Plan B too easily because he didn't want to find another way?  Did he push the desire to kill downward to honor those he has lost and those that he loves, but never really get rid of it?

In support of the thesis that he can be a good man, has Oliver Queen denied the antithesis that he has wanted to kill for non-killing reasons?  Is it possible to synthesize these into the idea of a good man who sometimes takes pleasure in unnecessary killing?

[finnaire]

13 minutes ago, Trisha said:

I think so too but SA actually uses the word "pleasure" when talking about this episode in his EW interview: “there was an element of Oliver that we met in season 1 that took a little bit of pleasure in snapping somebody’s neck.”

It feels like what's on the show isn't really matching up to what they're trying to sell off-screen, which I hope is not an indication of what's to come.

I guess I do get this. It's not like he's twirling an evil mustache or smiling because it felt just so damn good rather, he's taking a covert satisfaction. When he and Tommy were kidnapped and he freed himself, two of the guys were killed, the third ran. A normal person would have taken Tommy and gotten out of there. Oliver didn't. He went into hunt to kill mode (one of the best chase scenes ever, IMO). He chased that dude down explicitly to kill him. He first says it's because he killed the bystander. Then he says no one can know my secret. Really, which is it? I think he did it because he wanted to. And I do think he had a sense of satisfaction in doing it. Later, he doesn't kill Adam Hunt but he has no problem killing 5 or 6 security guards to get to him.  There is a definite cold bloodedness to what he is doing that goes beyond "getting justice". There's a reason he was considered to be a vigilante in S1. He only took on the mantle of "hero" when he (partially) prevented The Undertaking.  

[blackwing]

I was underwhelmed.  What's the big deal about Oliver's "secret".   TELL ME.... tell me.... tell me  thhhhhheeeee seeeeeecccrrreeettttt!  So the secret is that Oliver enjoyed killing people?  Big whoop.

I didn't watch this episode live last night.  This morning I was browsing the internet and I saw a teaser blurb that "Chase learns Oliver's secret".  I was expecting a lot more.  I thought the secret was going to be that Chase finds out that Oliver has a kid.  Or that he has a small dingaling.  Or that he puts orange juice on his cereal.  Not that he enjoyed killing.  Zzzzzzzzz.