S05.E16: Checkmate

[BkWurm1]

24 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Lexa Doig said that Talia is the sort of person not to get her own hands dirty when she can get someone else to do the job. The point was to torture Oliver and Chase did a better job than Talia could since she has to stay in the shadows. Now that everything's out in the open, she might take a bigger role.

My head canon is she isn't getting more hands on with Oliver because Ra's really was a shit dad so she's good with mostly out sourcing her family obligated revenge.

[Trisha]

43 minutes ago, tv echo said:

FYI, Arrow has posted 516 video clips on youtube...
Vid Listing: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtiCOweGmyKAO2odjX0qiDg

Ha, I love that they titled one "Felicity Becoming Evil."  

[Hiveminder]

36 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Hopefully Relatively-Smart Oliver will return now that he knows the game that Chase and Talia are playing.  But he never was the sharpest knife in the drawer.

And how long has Simon Morrison been pretending to be Adrian Chase?  He's need law school credentials to be DA, this isn't Suits.

Lexa Doig said that Talia is the sort of person not to get her own hands dirty when she can get someone else to do the job. The point was to torture Oliver and Chase did a better job than Talia could since she has to stay in the shadows. Now that everything's out in the open, she might take a bigger role.

I thought part of the idea behind giving Pike the info on Chase (or whichever of his eighty names you care to use) is that he had to fake his credentials as Adrian Chase in order to become DA, but he has to have been using the Chase name for at least long enough to meet his wife and get married. Presumably, he changed it sometime after Oliver killed his dad. That does give him enough time to have actually gotten a law degree as Adrian Chase, but it doesn't give him enough time to go to college, meet a woman, get married, work his way up from new law school  graduate to DA, discover Oliver's secret identity and learn apparently everything there is to know about his activities over the last 9-10 years, find and train under Talia, and hammer out the details of his elaborate evil plan. 

But hey, maybe all of this is actually about the time Oliver stole his girlfriend at a party and has been in the works for much longer than we think. 

Edited March 16, 2017 by Hiveminder

[BkWurm1]

25 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

I also want a Nyssa/Talia throwdown. Is Oliver still "married" to Nyssa?

It was only valid under LoA rules and the league was disbanded so per MG, no.  Which will last until PLOT (or even punchline probably) changes his mind

[ohjoy]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I'm disappointed that an episode entitled "Checkmate" was not in fact about the DCU agency Checkmate, nor involved a metaphorical checkmate, because even though Queen was taken by queen (Talia), it's obvious that Ollie still has moves left.

I know next to nothing about chess, but isn't the Checkmate move the one that ends with the Queen knocked over on the board/ground? I figured that was the tie-in.

Edited March 16, 2017 by RandomMe

[Midnight Lullaby]

20 minutes ago, RandomMe said:

I know next to nothing about chess, but isn't the Checkmate move the one that ends with the Queen knocked over on the board/ground? I figured that was the tie-in.

No, it's when the king is in check and can't make any more moves without ending in check. It ends the game.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[ohjoy]

8 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

No, it's when the king is in check and can't make any more moves without ending in check. It ends the game.

Ah, I see. Well then I got nuthin'.

[bmoore4026]

And you dumb motherfuckers let the wife hug her psychopath husband.  Bravo.

And I so wanted Captain Lance to punch Adrian when he had the audacity of appearing at the police station with the message that "Green Arrow killed his wife".

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 minute ago, RandomMe said:

Ah, I see. Well then I got nuthin'.

I guess the meaning was that Chase anticipated every move Oliver (the king) did and he had no way to gain the upper hand. Still obviously the game isn't over yet.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

But hey, maybe all of this is actually about the time Oliver stole his girlfriend at a party and has been in the works for much longer than we think. 

Like I mentioned in the spoiler thread,

my head!canon is Oliver and Chase hooked up in Russia. Oliver doesn't remember and it was the best night of Chase's life. "I WILL NOT BE IGNORED" - Chase, probably

[benteen]

1 hour ago, bmoore4026 said:

And you dumb motherfuckers let the wife hug her psychopath husband.  Bravo.

And I so wanted Captain Lance to punch Adrian when he had the audacity of appearing at the police station with the message that "Green Arrow killed his wife".

This drove me nuts.  I could see this coming a mile away and so should Oliver and Diggle.

[tennisgurl]

Please let Nyssa show up soon and give her sister a good hard smack of reality. "Talia, dad was a total asshole. You need to check yourself". Then, once Nyssa has helped to save the day, she joins ex girlfriend Sara over on LoT! It would be awesome! She's awkward and murderous, she would fit right in!

[statsgirl]

When Talia said "You stuck a sword through his chest", I wanted Oliver to say "After he stuck one through mine!".  Oliver still isn't so good with the words in a fight.

Checkmate is a translation of the Farsi "shāh māt" meaning "the king is helpless"  However in Pashto, means "destroyed". Either way the king is done for and the game is over.  That doesn't apply to this episode since there are still seven episodes to go this season  Oliver even said "This guy has us in check" to which Diggle replied "Yeah, for now".

Why does Rene still have a red scar from a healing wound?  Church abducted him four months ago.  He really needs to see a doctor about that.

4 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Rewatched this scene, and Felicity's surprise that Oliver's worried about her speaks volumes about this season. 

I look on that very positively -- they're watching the same show I am.

[KirkB]

To be fair to Talia, even if she and her father didn't get along doesn't mean she'd be happy that Oliver killed him.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

With The Mysterious Prometheus Out In The Open, Arrow Rounds Up More Enemies

Oliver needs more people to fight with!

[Chaser]

8 minutes ago, KirkB said:

To be fair to Talia, even if she and her father didn't get along doesn't mean she'd be happy that Oliver killed him.

My only experience with Talia is from the Animated Series, but isn't she a daddy's girl. A little crazy?

Edited March 16, 2017 by Chaser

[KirkB]

3 minutes ago, Chaser said:

My only experience with Talia is from the Animated Series, but wasn't she a daddy's girl. A little crazy?

A little? No, she was kind of a whack job. In the comics Talia was torn between her love for her father and her love for Batman. The latter doesn't exist here, and so far we don't have any hint of an attraction to Oliver (though I wouldn't be surprised). But she was usually portrayed kind of like Nyssa has been, loyal to her father and to the League, until she was betrayed at least. This Talia...who knows?

[HunterHunted]

Chase is not working for me at all. He's formidable to be sure, but his motivation is weak and his actions are completely outsized to his "loss." Chase knows Oliver killed his dad, but he also knows about The List. He knows that his dad was a bad guy and he still insists on killing dozens to get vengeance. Talia makes sense because she was raised in the League, which has its own warped ethics. However, Adrian was raised among regular people. It's hard to keep his level of dysfunction and psychopathy isolated and compartmentalized from the general public. And here's the thing, he really would need to exhibit some of these traits before his father was killed, which makes it hard to believe that he could have held it together long enough to get through law school and work his way up through the DA's office. Except for this being Star City, there is no way that Adrian Chase should be the district attorney. Lucky for him, city leaders are killed every couple of weeks.

If the show had bothered to have Chase also impacted by Oliver's somewhat arbitrary decisions on when to kill and when not to kill, I think that might have made Chase's motivation stronger. Perhaps Oliver kills has dad. There is a power vacuum in the mob and tons of infighting. Oliver decides not to kill, which leaves mobsters and criminals alive to consolidate power both in and out of prison. Unfortunately, the people who end up in charge aren't friends of Chase's dad. It leaves Chase and his mom in a vulnerable position and constantly running. It makes Oliver much more responsible for Chase's life being miserable for the last 5 years.

The reason Slade worked for me when Adrian does not is because being connected with Oliver cost Slade so much more. Slade had the following happen to him because of or related to his involvement with Oliver: stuck on Lian Yu, poisoned by Mirakuru, lost an eye, fell in love with Shado and lost her, and had his wife and son die.

[bijoux]

I figured out a reasoning for Talia's revenge that works for me. It's not that she's mourning dear, old dad, it's that, much like Nyssa did in S3, she resents that Oliver was the one to off him and not her, thereby ascending to become the new Ra's.

Let me have this until the show proves me wrong. No doubt on Talia's next appearance.

[catrox14]

57 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

s formidable to be sure, but his motivation is weak and his actions are completely outsized to his "loss." Chase knows Oliver killed his dad, but he also knows about The List

Wait a minute. Oliver killed Chase's dad? I think I missed a big thing. I thought it was decided that the person they thought he was he really wasn't .

[Sunshine]

He's still Claybourne's son. I think mom's name was Morrison but she changed it to Westfield. Somewhere down the road he changed his to Adrian Chase.

[TrueMyth]

Chase is a bastard son, right?  It likely has something to do with his pathology, as classic narratives like to paint illegitimate children as morally corrupt or at least "less than."  Adrian/Simon probably had to work harder to win Daddy's love, only to have such work unravel when the Arrow killed his father.

[HunterHunted]

11 minutes ago, TrueMyth said:

Chase is a bastard son, right?  It likely has something to do with his pathology, as classic narratives like to paint illegitimate children as morally corrupt or at least "less than."  Adrian/Simon probably had to work harder to win Daddy's love, only to have such work unravel when the Arrow killed his father.

Except that at this point, he's Claybourne's only child. Though it would be interesting if his father never loved him, that Simon/Adrian was the price that Justin had to pay to keep Simon's mom in the picture. In line with your point, Adrian/Simon had to work to get his father to nominally tolerate him because dad put up with Adrian/Simon to keep his mistress happy even if Adrian/Simon is his son.

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, KirkB said:

To be fair to Talia, even if she and her father didn't get along doesn't mean she'd be happy that Oliver killed him.

In the immortal words of Simon Gruber

Quote

Simon Gruber: There's a difference, you know, between not liking one's brother and not caring when some dumb Irish flatfoot drops him out of a window. 

[benteen]

6 hours ago, statsgirl said:

When Talia said "You stuck a sword through his chest", I wanted Oliver to say "After he stuck one through mine!".  Oliver still isn't so good with the words in a fight.

Oliver is lousy with words and it always drives me crazy when characters don't defend themselves in moments like this.

[wonderwall]

2 minutes ago, benteen said:

Oliver is lousy with words

Unless he's saying romantic things to Felicity :')

[BkWurm1]

5 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Chase is not working for me at all. He's formidable to be sure, but his motivation is weak and his actions are completely outsized to his "loss." Chase knows Oliver killed his dad, but he also knows about The List. He knows that his dad was a bad guy and he still insists on killing dozens to get vengeance. Talia makes sense because she was raised in the League, which has its own warped ethics. However, Adrian was raised among regular people. It's hard to keep his level of dysfunction and psychopathy isolated and compartmentalized from the general public. And here's the thing, he really would need to exhibit some of these traits before his father was killed, which makes it hard to believe that he could have held it together long enough to get through law school and work his way up through the DA's office. Except for this being Star City, there is no way that Adrian Chase should be the district attorney. Lucky for him, city leaders are killed every couple of weeks.

 

 

But was he?  Just how normal were the people that raised him?  His father is a bad guy, not just in business but in his personal life  and "Chase" is left unclaimed and hidden in the shadows.  Talia's values were shaped by her surroundings and upbringing so why not also assume he was shaped by his?

  So to start with, a bad father and a mother that didn't care how that she was with such a man.  It seems though that Chase idolized his father.  Chances are he built up a lot of false narratives about him and probably their relationship. Or maybe Clayborne did occasionally play the doting dad when it suited him.  Maybe he dangled a time in their lives when they could be open about their relationship or when he'd bring Jr into his business and life.  Maybe he already had to a point and Chase was already getting his hands dirty.

We don't really know anything about who he was before he devoted his life to revenge on Oliver and became Adrian Chase.  He very well might have always been the psychopath we see but that it took his father's death for Chase to realize it and fully embrace who he was. We see a man that has spent five years on revenge for a man that had it coming but how does "Chase" see it?  If he really had always been unhinged, then would this really be that much of a surprise?  Mommy certainly seemed to be only about shielding her son.  She probably has known for a long time and not cared about how much of a monster she raised.  

[wonderwall]

That bastard ad libbed that D:

[Hiveminder]

11 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

But was he?  Just how normal were the people that raised him?  His father is a bad guy, not just in business but in his personal life  and "Chase" is left unclaimed and hidden in the shadows.  Talia's values were shaped by her surroundings and upbringing so why not also assume he was shaped by his?

  So to start with, a bad father and a mother that didn't care how that she was with such a man.  It seems though that Chase idolized his father.  Chances are he built up a lot of false narratives about him and probably their relationship. Or maybe Clayborne did occasionally play the doting dad when it suited him.  Maybe he dangled a time in their lives when they could be open about their relationship or when he'd bring Jr into his business and life.  Maybe he already had to a point and Chase was already getting his hands dirty.

We don't really know anything about who he was before he devoted his life to revenge on Oliver and became Adrian Chase.  He very well might have always been the psychopath we see but that it took his father's death for Chase to realize it and fully embrace who he was. We see a man that has spent five years on revenge for a man that had it coming but how does "Chase" see it?  If he really had always been unhinged, then would this really be that much of a surprise?  Mommy certainly seemed to be only about shielding her son.  She probably has known for a long time and not cared about how much of a monster she raised.  

His mom definitely had the crazy eyes, so I'm sure there wasn't a heavy emphasis on sanity in that house when Adrian was growing up. 

Chase has clearly always had more than a few screws loose. Anyone who embarks upon a years long vendetta which involves such things as killing a random innocent woman because of how her name can be rearranged, manipulating a man into killing his ex-fiancé's boyfriend, and murdering his own wife does not have a firm grasp on reality. He's probably spent his whole life getting disproportionate revenge for petty insults. 

[BkWurm1]

30 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

That bastard ad libbed that D:

I love that he sees a bullet riddled laptop and thinks the same thing I do.  Lol.  Reminds me why he was called the "Captain" for so long.  

[statsgirl]

As @BkWurm1 said, we really don't know anything about Chase/Simon's relationship with his father, only that Chase's existence was cited in the Claybourne diverce papers.  It could be that Claybourne was very close to Chase because he was his only child and Chase lost a father he was very close to and adored,, or Claybourne could have ignored him and Chase is angry because Oliver ended his dream of finally getting to be a part of his father's life.

Amanda took up with a married man of Claybourne's lack of moral so for her the end probably justifies the means and her end is to protect her son.

I wonder why she went off the grid though.

[thegirlsleuth]

We got two "son of a bitch" exclamations out of Lance this week, so that alone would make it a good episode.  Most people have broken down the highlights of this episode, and I'll add mine.  That was fun!  I'm still finding Chase's backstory and motivations weak and that may hurt the season's dismount, but Josh Sagarra is so charismatic (and sexy) that I don't care.  Really don't care.  He's got that menacing (and sexy) whisper--his "one loss away from being destroyed" gave me chills. Plus he really works the crazy (and sexy) eyes. 

My dude finds it hilarious how sexy I find Chase, a) because Chase is about as far as you can get, looks wise, from my dude and still be the same gender, and b) because Chase is a psychopath.  My dude might find it less hilarious if I ask him to whisper "comstat verifications" in my ear in an ominous (and sexy) way,  but we haven't crossed that line.

Talia is more formidable than her father in every way, up to and including the fact that I think she could take Oliver in a physical fight. She was also good at hiss whispering.  Both the opening fight and the Chase v. Oliver were excellent.  An early guess for me was that Prometheus was alt-Universe Oliver because of the similar fighting styles, and it was a great brawl.  

One thing I really liked a about this episode was how full it felt.  There were other people in all the scenes, milling in the back while Felicity hacked, walking through the office, going to Russian hockey games, etc.  So often on this show it feels like there is no community surrounding Oliver that I really liked the wholeness is gave to scenes.

I loved the scene where Chase killed his wife.  Josh and the actress who played his wife both did a beautiful job of portraying grief, dismay, and love.  I was sorry we didn't see more of her before now--she was good. I wish we had more characters like her on the show, and fewer characters that punched things.

The Noobs are gelling with each other. Still not gelling with OTA, mostly because once you have Oliver, Felicity, and Diggle on scene, you don't need any of the noobs.   And with his balls, Curtis and Dinah are now overpowered for the show.  

I am liking Oliver's hair a lot, and even like it in the flashbacks in all its Eurotrash glory, but he still looks exhausted.  Coupled with Chase's comment about Oliver sleeping for a week, I am wondering if it is a plot point, and if so, why?

In the previews for next week there were pictures posted all over Oliver's cell.  Anyone make out who they were?

[BkWurm1]

16 hours ago, thegirlsleuth said:

In the previews for next week there were pictures posted all over Oliver's cell.  Anyone make out who they were?

The only one I recognized was Deadshot, but not sure if Oliver would feel any guilt over his death, a heroic one at that.  

Edited March 17, 2017 by BkWurm1

[KirkB]

Hang on, didn't Deadshot die in a mostly Diggle/Lyla episode? Why would Oliver know or even care about his dying?

[BkWurm1]

1 minute ago, KirkB said:

Hang on, didn't Deadshot die in a mostly Diggle/Lyla episode? Why would Oliver know or even care about his dying?

No clue.  But there was a guy in an eyepatch with his hairstyle and face shape when I slowed down the promo.  There were a number of guys that look like total goons and lowlifes on that wall.  

[KirkB]

Nevermind, Chase is loony tunes. It could literally be anything. Maybe he's starting a Deadshot fan club. Or that's the picture he intends to take with him next time he goes to the barber.

Edited March 17, 2017 by KirkB

[arjumand]

7 hours ago, benteen said:

Oliver is lousy with words and it always drives me crazy when characters don't defend themselves in moments like this.

EXACTLY!

I mean, even if he didn't say that R'as al Ghul did the exact same thing to him, and he just lived because of mumblemumblecontrivancemagicherbsmumble, how about this: Oliver didn't creep up on him when he was in the bath/having dinner/taking a shit. It was a pretty formal duel, just in Star City rather than on a mountain-top (and they weren't shirtless, more's the pity).

Also, maybe I've got it wrong, but isn't that pretty much the way of the ugly-ass ring passing from one R'as al Ghul to another? Sure, he kept saying that he was going to give Oliver the title+ring, but it kept not happening.

Whatever, I know he was her father and everything, but:

1. If she loved her daddy so much, where was she when all this was going down?
2. Her dad was a rapist and a rape-enabler of
3. his own fricking daughter, and
4. murdered his village to become R'as and wanted Oliver to wipe out Star City.

Fuck that guy, seriously. My respect for Talia went down a billion points when she used that as a reason, and then she criticized Oliver's father! LOL. I'm sorry, but compared to her father, aka Hitler in Robes, Robert Queen was very small potatoes indeed.

This episode was good, really it was, and I enjoyed it. I just wish the show would stop reminding me that when it comes to daddy issues, everybody's got them, and has to work them out, and bla bla blee. Find another tune, guys.

[Mellowyellow]

Oooh I just realised the "mature" conversation this week was actually mature and sane and lovely!!!! Omg I'm not used to not raging! I've even stopped making up names for the Pantry Moth!

[Hiveminder]

2 hours ago, arjumand said:

EXACTLY!

I mean, even if he didn't say that R'as al Ghul did the exact same thing to him, and he just lived because of mumblemumblecontrivancemagicherbsmumble, how about this: Oliver didn't creep up on him when he was in the bath/having dinner/taking a shit. It was a pretty formal duel, just in Star City rather than on a mountain-top (and they weren't shirtless, more's the pity).

Also, maybe I've got it wrong, but isn't that pretty much the way of the ugly-ass ring passing from one R'as al Ghul to another? Sure, he kept saying that he was going to give Oliver the title+ring, but it kept not happening.

Whatever, I know he was her father and everything, but:

1. If she loved her daddy so much, where was she when all this was going down?
2. Her dad was a rapist and a rape-enabler of
3. his own fricking daughter, and
4. murdered his village to become R'as and wanted Oliver to wipe out Star City.

Fuck that guy, seriously. My respect for Talia went down a billion points when she used that as a reason, and then she criticized Oliver's father! LOL. I'm sorry, but compared to her father, aka Hitler in Robes, Robert Queen was very small potatoes indeed.

This episode was good, really it was, and I enjoyed it. I just wish the show would stop reminding me that when it comes to daddy issues, everybody's got them, and has to work them out, and bla bla blee. Find another tune, guys.

Oliver has always been terrible at defending himself on those occasions when he did actually have a leg to stand on, going back to season one when Thea was throwing all kinds of bratty teenage attitude at him. I used to think it was because he had to keep his big green secret, but now I think it's a combination of that and hating himself. 

[statsgirl]

2 hours ago, arjumand said:

 I just wish the show would stop reminding me that when it comes to daddy issues, everybody's got them, and has to work them out, and bla bla blee. Find another tune, guys.

Yeah, I can buy that everyone has daddy issues (partly because everyone I know has), but not all daddy issues are equal.

Robert may have been ashamed of Oliver peeing on a cop but that's a long way from kidnapping and murder.  And in the end, Robert trusted Oliver to right his own wrongs as Talia well knows (how does she know?) so no shaming there.

Does Oliver really believe that Ra's was an honourable man?  Was he brainwashed into it?  Or was that just a sop to try to influence Talia?

[way2interested]

1 minute ago, statsgirl said:

Does Oliver really believe that Ra's was an honourable man?  Was he brainwashed into it?  Or was that just a sop to try to influence Talia?

I went with more of a sop since he was just kidnapped and Chase and Talia were about to do who knows what to him and possibly who knows what to other people he cares about. Like, if he could convince Talia to stop Chase, problem solved.

[dtissagirl]

English as a second language: I learned the word "sop" today. Thanks, guys! :)))

Edited March 17, 2017 by dtissagirl

[Morrigan2575]

3 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

English as a second language: I learned the word "sop" today. Thanks, guys! :)))

Standard Operating Procedure?  Or do I need to learn a new word too?

[Chaser]

I did. I googled it. 

[dtissagirl]

12 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Standard Operating Procedure?  Or do I need to learn a new word too?

sop
säp/
noun
noun: sop; plural noun: sops

 1. a thing given or done as a concession of no great value to appease someone whose main concerns or demands are not being met.

[Morrigan2575]

Huh, definitely a new word. Thanks.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Huh, not a new word for me but new meaning. Always used it in context of food. Thanks.

From m-w.com: chiefly dialectal :  a piece of food dipped or steeped in a liquid

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

Was he brainwashed into it?  Or was that just a sop to try to influence Talia?

I can only assume he was thinking "I've been kidnapped by a crazy person and an angry assassin, both of whom hate me and want me to suffer. I need to come up with any bullshit possible to try to put off the inevitable pain session. Even if I have to make up crap about how dickhead Ras was actually super noble or something". Either that, or that brainwashing worked a ton more than he expected.

[statsgirl]

Hopefully it was just a Hail Mary pass although I think he would have done better with "It was a fair fight under LoA traditions. Remember those?"  But with this season's Oliver, who knows, maybe he did believe it.

I wonder if the two meanings of sop are connected.  The sop that is a piece of bread dipped in a drink/soup/gravy is not as good as getting the soup itself, it is "a concession of no great value to appease someone whose main concerns or demands are not being met."

[tv echo]

When Chase kidnapped Susan, she was on her way to meet someone for dinner. So when she didn't show up, wouldn't the person she was meeting have become concerned?  Was this ever addressed?

If she was meeting Oliver for dinner, then he would already have known that she was missing before Chase told him. Do I need to make up some head canon that Chase took Susan's phone and sent a text to Oliver cancelling dinner?

Edited March 17, 2017 by tv echo