Big Little Speculation without Spoilers

[Athena]

This is a Show Only topic so no discussion about the books whatsoever.

[teddysmom]

I put it under spoiler but I can remove it if necessary. I didn't realize previews were under spoiler. sorry. 

[teddysmom]

I wouldn't be surprised if it is, maybe she did track him down.    

I can see her not going after him, they were drunk, she consented to going to the hotel room. Not blaming her, just know how cops would react.  "What did you think was going to happen when you went to a hotel room with a man?" 

I have to say, I have seen little kids get really mad about something but never heard one say "For Christ's sake".   Goddammit, maybe.  

[betha]

OMG Ed and Abby are sleeping together, aren't they. Sigh. I liked him, too. But all the clues--

-BCPs

-Ed and Abby's adult talk about her mom seemed pretty familiar... 

- we know Ed and Madeline don't have a lot of sex

-now Abby doesn't want to live there any more 

I expected it to be revealed this episode. Maybe we aren't to find out until the end.

i also had the feeling that Jane's rapist might be one of the dads.

[DarkRaichu]

Woohoo no book talk speculation zone!!

- Upon re-watching ep1, Amabella clearly did not point to Ziggy the first time she was asked.  She pointed to 1 of the twins, then the dumbass teacher blocked the twin from her POV, then she pointed to Ziggy.  I think 1 of the twin was the chocker

- Assuming 1 of the husbands was the rapist and based on the size of silhouette of the rapist, it looked like either Nathan, Perry, and Gordon were possible suspects.  Jane already met Nathan and was not shown any reaction to him (unless I missed it), so Nathan is out.  Gordon was not seem likely just because if I were him I'd rather die than going to divorce court vs Renata.

- The above + the dress shoes of the rapist.  Perry was the only husband shown wearing dress shoes (slow dance scene with Celeste).  The other husbands were wearing canvas / less formal shoes.  So to me, the arrows are pointing to Perry as the rapist

[Cardie]

The mystery will face a fork in the road depending on whether we can take Jane's story of the rape at face value. If she has no idea who the rapist is and has moved to Monterey to find and confront him, then the photo online eliminates the dads. If, however, she knows exactly who it is and has come to get her revenge, then it could be any one of tem, even Nathan.

I keep coming back to the person in the Chorus who said that the crime probably wouldn't have occurred if Jane hadn't come to Madeline's aid. That leads me to believe that the murder either stems from the exposure of the rapist or the Madeline/Renata feud that sprang up around the Ziggy/Amabella incident. Thus, unless Perry is the rapist, I would rule him and Celeste out as killer or victim. I also think that because the conflicts among the women are being waged with their kids as proxies, the killer will be a proxy too, having been manipulated by one of them to eliminate either the female rival or her husband. Another possibility is that the intended victim fights back and it is the killer who dies, probably by falling down those stairs.

[betha]

Does anyone read anything into the Greek chorus using past tense sometimes? I.e. "She was a person who..."

Edited March 7, 2017 by betha

[Irlandesa]

On 3/6/2017 at 4:52 PM, Cardie said:

The mystery will face a fork in the road depending on whether we can take Jane's story of the rape at face value. If she has no idea who the rapist is and has moved to Monterey to find and confront him, then the photo online eliminates the dads.

I think it will be interesting to see what happens in the next episode.  For instance, the photo isn't one of the dads but it looks similar to a few of the men on the show.  Is it possible her memory of that night and what he looks like isn't great?  And where are they seeing that photo?  If it's on a dating website, the user account could be using a fake picture if he's trying to cheat on his wife. 

So I do think there's some room for Jane to think that's what the guy looked like and have it not be what he looked like.

[Cardie]

5 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

So I do think there's some room for Jane to think that's what the guy looked like and have it not be what he looked like.

It could be a fake photo or Saxon Banks could be someone the rapist knows and somewhat resembles and he stole his friend's name to commit the rape.

[QuinnM]

Quote

I think Jane's wording in the preview when someone asks her if that's him is something like, "I think so.  Plus that's the right name."  So she really didn't sound certain.  

If Jane is 24 then this happened when she was 18.  I would like to go on record that those shoes belong to a man who is mid 30s, minimum.  No 20 something would be caught dead in that look.

[susannot]

Who do you all think is murdered?  Leading candidate has to be Perry.  At least 3 or 4 people have motives.

[betha]

As I said above, I think more is going on with Ed than we have seen. I think he is involved as one party or the other.

[Cardie]

Perry is Mr. Obvious in so many ways that he seems too obvious. Since the show does not put a lot of emphasis on solving the mystery, I suppose we could see the events at the gala as being a fulfillment of the inevitable rather than a big shock out of left field.

[Guest]

True.  It is kind of hard to see it as a whodunnit when we still don't even know who died.  I guess maybe a who-dun-what.  

[Razzberry]

 The footwear in question.    The shoe prints on the beach looks like the guy was running.   Perhaps from Jane, who capped him that night?  I don't know,  there's so little to go on.

[NutMeg]

I paused during the credits at the beginning for some reason, it was where the credits read Alexander Skarsgard, and the house, on the right, looks like a human head. I'm not reading anything in it but was just wondering if others had seen it?  

[Irlandesa]

On 3/12/2017 at 2:37 PM, Cardie said:

Perry is Mr. Obvious in so many ways that he seems too obvious. Since the show does not put a lot of emphasis on solving the mystery, I suppose we could see the events at the gala as being a fulfillment of the inevitable rather than a big shock out of left field.

I think that is what this is.  A different kind of mystery, if you will. I think the mystery is going to be more about which of these events will lead to murder than it is about who killed a specific person. 

Perry & Celeste

Does Celeste try to leave, perhaps as a result of finding out one of their twins is mimicking his father's behavior, and kill a Perry who won't let her leave?  Or does she try to leave and he kill her to punish her? Or does one of Amabella's parents kill Perry if they find out that one of the boys has something to do with their daughter's abuse?

Ed & Madeline

Does Ed find out about the affair and prove Nathan right that he's a psycho by killing either Madeline or her lover?  Is Ed sleeping with Abigail and end up dead as a result of that?

Bonnie & Nathan

I don't think Bonnie will kill or be killed but perhaps Nathan's accusations that Ed is a psycho is actually projection on his part?

Jane

Does she find her rapist?  Does she kill him? 

There are a lot of stories that could end up in murder but I do feel like the whodunnit is the less interesting part of the story compared to the character arcs told every week.

[Cardie]

Because of the stress the Chorus puts on Maddy meeting and then championing Jane as the instigating event of this tragedy, I would venture that either Jane's rape or the accusations against Ziggy for bullying Amabella play a part. Thus, I don't think the death will have to do with any difficulties among Maddy, Ed, Nathan and Bonnie, unless Jane snaps and goes after someone she believes is doing wrong to her friend. I also don't think Perry, Nathan, Gordon, or Ed will die unless one of them is Jane's rapist.

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

I think that is what this is.  A different kind of mystery, if you will. I think the mystery is going to be more about which of these events will lead to murder than it is about who killed a specific person. 

At this point I'd rather have the 1st grade teacher slipped and fell to her death (ie. the subject of police investigation) to let the main characters solve their storylines without ending up murderer(s)

[stagmania]

I've been thinking about what my theories are. I'm pretty bad at guessing, but I wanted to give it a shot here. The main mysteries are:

• What is happening to Amabella and who is doing it?
• Who is Jane's rapist?
• Who will be killed, why and by whom?
• Is there a single decent man on this show?

Theories in order:

• One or both of the twins is messing with her. It feels a little weak, but it's all I got.
• I think it's someone we don't know. It's just not tracking for me for it to be any of the main guys. I think it's meant to be a big red herring re: who is going to get murdered.
• Perry, not certain but possibly because his abuse is uncovered, by one of the other women rather than Celeste.
• Sticking with Ed. And Renata's husband, I guess, is probably just a normal slightly skeevy guy.

[QuinnM]

Quote

One or both of the twins is messing with her. It feels a little weak, but it's all I got.

Ok, call me crazy but when the psychologist was describing the type of person that might be bullying Ziggy I was like that's Choloe.  So now I'm liking that more and more.  The previews show Amabelle with a bit on her shoulder.  So someone her height bit her from behind.  I'm like a little girl for the bite as well.  Plus Choloe could threaten Ziggy with ruining the one friend his mother has.  I'm totally team Choloe at this point.

[QuinnM]

Quote

Perry, not certain but possibly because his abuse is uncovered, by one of the other women rather than Celeste.

Ok, I'm going with Celeste.  At the beginning of this weeks episode they said there were multiple broken bones.  So Perry lost it on Celeste.  However, I am also willing to cosign that the multiple broken bones were found in a child who was the victim of an abuser and the abuser is the murder victim.

[wilnil]

This theory just popped into my head: Madeline kills Perry. Consider:

• Madeline's reaction in the car after hearing Jane's backstory.
• Her turmoil over the men in her own life, and the stress of having Abigail decide to move in with her dad.
• Celeste seems to be her best friend in town, and whatever else Madeline is, she's loyal to friends.

Now imagine that on the night of the fundraiser Madeline finds Perry abusing Celeste, and there's anything club-like close at hand...

[Norma Desmond]

I'm going with Renata's husband as being Jane's rapist, though there is something wrong with Ed.

[Blissfool]

13 hours ago, QuinnM said:

Ok, call me crazy but when the psychologist was describing the type of person that might be bullying Ziggy I was like that's Choloe.  So now I'm liking that more and more.  The previews show Amabelle with a bit on her shoulder.  So someone her height bit her from behind.  I'm like a little girl for the bite as well.  Plus Choloe could threaten Ziggy with ruining the one friend his mother has.  I'm totally team Choloe at this point.

I thought Chloe too!

[NutMeg]

What did the psychologist say about the type of people who might be bullies?

[QuinnM]

Quote

What did the psychologist say about the type of people who might be bullies?

She listed their traits as narcissistic, lacking empathy and lacking sympathy.  She then said that Ziggy might be being bullied. probably verbal, someone smart that figured out a weak spot.

[lmsweb]

10 hours ago, QuinnM said:

She listed their traits as narcissistic, lacking empathy and lacking sympathy.  She then said that Ziggy might be being bullied. probably verbal, someone smart that figured out a weak spot.

Chloe might be the "Pied Piper" leader sort, but she's demonstrated empathy and sympathy (for example, the birthday invite, when she all but yelled at her mother to not open it because she knew it would upset Ziggy that he didn't get one). My guess is the weak spot that Ziggy has is his father and not even knowing his name. Interesting how he picked up from Jane that his father was not a nice guy - he told the therapist he thought it might be Darth Vader.

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, scrb said:

If Perry turned out to be the date-rapist, that would be a plot gimmick.

The victim befriends the wife of the rapist unwittingly and there's a climactic reveal?

If he had those tendencies, he'd continue with them, rather than just abuse Celeste.

OTOH, he does take a lot of business trips so he could be still doing it off-camera.

If the reveal is that Jane sees the bottom of one of Perry's shoes, it would be the biggest eye roll in history.

My prediction is she sees that shoe print at the trivia night, so she's on guard that he's there but doesn't know who.  Til she gets close to him and his cologne makes her know for sure.  She had that odd remark about she'd remember his voice and his awful smell.  

[MerBearHou]

I love the shoe print idea.  I think Jane both hears him and smells him at the party.  

If Perry is the rapist and the twins are about the same age as Ziggy, that means he raped Jane while he was presumably married to Celeste (don't know the exact marriage timeline).

Edited March 16, 2017 by MerBearHou

[NutMeg]

15 hours ago, QuinnM said:

She listed their traits as narcissistic, lacking empathy and lacking sympathy.  She then said that Ziggy might be being bullied. probably verbal, someone smart that figured out a weak spot.

Thanks!

[Cardie]

4 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

My prediction is she sees that shoe print at the trivia night, so she's on guard that he's there but doesn't know who.  Til she gets close to him and his cologne makes her know for sure.  She had that odd remark about she'd remember his voice and his awful smell.  

I think that Jane recognizes her rapist this way at Trivia Night, identifies him publicly--or confronts him--and the death results from these revelations.

[Guest]

And I guess his Elvis costume disguises him so much she doesn't recognize him on first sight.  Skarsgard is 6'4" so if it's Perry I guess you just overlook that part.  

[MaryWebGirl]

I'm bringing this over from the show thread.

30 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

 My money is still on Renettas husband. He was established as being rather skeevy, and he is a minor enough character not to stand out or get to know him very well, but not SO minor that him being guilty feels random.

I think it being Renata's husband would also bring in the Madeline vs. Renata dynamics again, as well as Renata blaming Ziggy for hurting Amabella. There's an interesting symmetry to it that I like.

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, MaryWebGirl said:

I'm bringing this over from the show thread.

I think it being Renata's husband would also bring in the Madeline vs. Renata dynamics again, as well as Renata blaming Ziggy for hurting Amabella. There's an interesting symmetry to it that I like.

I still think being Renata's husband is enough deterrent from any extramarital affairs / things / flings, let alone rape.  Seriously, what man wants to face off with Renata in divorce court?  

ETA: also, they seem to be the most balanced couple in the show.

Edited March 16, 2017 by DarkRaichu

[Stella]

I re-watched the first 5 episodes and noticed a detail that I'd missed the first time. In the second episode when the lead detective addresses the press she mentions that there may be additional charges of assault and conspiracy to assault (or something along those lines) and it occurred to me that it's possible that say Celeste and Jane are both involved in the killing. I can easily imagine a confrontation with Perry that could lead to such an outcome. Obviously not a premeditated conspiracy. I also think Jane's gun is not Chekhov's gun because the injuries described of the victim seem likely sustained from a fall. (Broken bones, skull damages, etc.) There may be a fight in which they end up pushing him off one of those gorgeous cliffs we keep seeing. Heck, Madeline could be involved as well.

[NutMeg]

two ways for story purpose: Jane has one and (who was that guy at the shooting range? Nathan?) has one too. And their kids potentially have access. Or, no one used it to shoot, but to scare, and then it could be anyone, with or without real gun access.   

[madam magpie]

I really think Perry is the rapist. The erotic-asphyxiation comment from Jane in the same episode as him smothering Celeste in the couch pillow sealed that for me.

I'm not sure he dies, though, and I still think Ed is creepy with Abby.

I don't buy Chloe as the bully at all. She's smart, but empathetic, kind, helpful. I'm convinced it's the twins.

Edited March 26, 2017 by madam magpie

[wilnil]

On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 0:35 PM, Stella said:

I re-watched the first 5 episodes and noticed a detail that I'd missed the first time. In the second episode when the lead detective addresses the press she mentions that there may be additional charges of assault and conspiracy to assault (or something along those lines) and it occurred to me that it's possible that say Celeste and Jane are both involved in the killing.

Earlier, I threw in a theory that it will be Madeline killing Perry, but now I'm starting to consider a "Murder on the Orient Express" (movie) scenario -- maybe Perry being hounded to his death by most or all of the main characters.

First, Stella's note above. Second, the police seem to be having a bit of trouble sorting out just what happened; the people they're interviewing seem to be collectively throwing suspicion on everyone. And the situation that seems to be emerging could give all of the main characters motives if Perry's true nature gets revealed.

Celeste's motive is obvious; she's now more in danger from him than ever.

Jane, even if Perry isn't her rapist, is likely to react with rage if she learns he's a violent predator.

Madeline, as I said before, is Celeste's best friend and is quick to get angry when her friends are threatened.

Even Renata, who takes no prisoners -- what if it does turn out to be one or both of the twins abusing Amabella, and when she confronts Celeste, Celeste says something like "Oh my god, they're starting to imitate Perry!"

And it's not limited to the women; Ed has his own suppressed rage over bullying, so I could easily see him aiding and abetting an impromptu "conspiracy" to give Perry what they'd all agree he deserves. (Nathan and Bonnie, not likely, unless their New Age lifestyle is only for show.)

[Stella]

4 hours ago, wilnil said:

but now I'm starting to consider a "Murder on the Orient Express" (movie) scenario -- maybe Perry being hounded to his death by most or all of the main characters.

This is a funny speculation!

I think if any character other than Perry dies it's going to be disappointing for me. After last night's episode I had some doubts about what would happen but essentially came back to believing that Perry will die. I think it will be accidental and in self-defense. I do think 2 or 3 of the women, presumably the mains, could all be involved but at least one of them. If I were to bet I'd put my money on Celeste. I get how this outcome is the most predictable but for me if something happens out of left field I don't think it would feel true to the narrative thus far. I'm really looking forward to the finale.

[madam magpie]

A friend and I were talking about this at work today, and we figure Perry has to die. It's predictable, yes, but if anyone else dies and he lives, the audience will be furious. Also there are such clear themes of female empowerment, struggle, friendship, forgiveness, etc. that the women just have to win somehow. The rules of storytelling demand that. 

Who kills him? We're going with a group effort/semi accident. Maybe Jane sees him at the trivia night and IDs him to Madeline, then Celeste freaks out and tells Jane/Madeline the truth. Then there's a fight, a confrontation, some pushing/shoving, Perry lunges at Celeste and/or Jane and somehow he goes over a cliff. Maybe it's even unclear who pushes him. At one point, the detective said they thought they had identified the "people" involved. It would be cool if Renata had a hand in it somehow too.

[walnutqueen]

Celeste will never be safe from Perry - seaside apartment notwithstanding.  That therapist is sorely lacking in real life experience if she thinks "moving out but remaining in the boy's school district" is a viable escape plan.  There are very few "exit strategies" outside of the Witness Protection Program from someone like him; even less than do not involve his death.

[chocolatine]

58 minutes ago, walnutqueen said:

That therapist is sorely lacking in real life experience if she thinks "moving out but remaining in the boy's school district" is a viable escape plan.

I don't have any experience with abuse and/or therapy, but the suggestion to stay in the school district sounded strange to me as well. Perry's anger at her leaving him coupled with easy access to her sounds like a bad combination. But on the other hand, what else can she do? Unless she hires a bodyguard to be with her 24/7, how can she ever be safe from him?

[walnutqueen]

2 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

I don't have any experience with abuse and/or therapy, but the suggestion to stay in the school district sounded strange to me as well. Perry's anger at her leaving him coupled with easy access to her sounds like a bad combination. But on the other hand, what else can she do? Unless she hires a bodyguard to be with her 24/7, how can she ever be safe from him?

She can't.

Ain't life a bitch.

[chocolatine]

3 minutes ago, walnutqueen said:

She can't.

Ain't life a bitch.

I'm just starting to realize how trapped she is. Even if she leaves, she has to stay close because of the kids - since there's no record of his abuse, she can't legally deny him access to them. And he can easily find out her address and the places she frequents. She'll never have peace. She should have aimed that racquet at his windpipe instead of his penis.

[walnutqueen]

28 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

I'm just starting to realize how trapped she is. Even if she leaves, she has to stay close because of the kids - since there's no record of his abuse, she can't legally deny him access to them. And he can easily find out her address and the places she frequents. She'll never have peace. She should have aimed that racquet at his windpipe instead of his penis.

A guy like Perry will NEVER let go.  She'd be the luckiest bitch on the planet if he just went after the kids for joint custody in an ugly way - but we all know how unlikely THAT is to happen, amirite?

[QuinnM]

Has anyone else gone back and rewatched the first episode?  There is someone being treated by a firefighter/emt.  It is a woman and she is breathing heavy.  I think it is Nicole?  The female police officer then says the victim, who is on the terrace, has a broken pelvis and blunt force trauma to the back of the skull.  So now I think I need to rewatch all 6 episodes?  I might have to since HBO won't let me just send them a twenty for the finale.

[madam magpie]

24 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

Has anyone else gone back and rewatched the first episode?  There is someone being treated by a firefighter/emt.  It is a woman and she is breathing heavy.  I think it is Nicole?  The female police officer then says the victim, who is on the terrace, has a broken pelvis and blunt force trauma to the back of the skull.  So now I think I need to rewatch all 6 episodes?  I might have to since HBO won't let me just send them a twenty for the finale.

I did! I think the woman breathing heavily is Nicole too. It sounds like her. I also noticed that when Amabella points out her attacker, she first waves right in the direction of the twins. The teacher misses that and steps in front of them, blocking them from her view, and then Amabella IDs Ziggy.

I'm hoping to rewatch all six episodes before the finale too. I binged the first five last weekend and am sure I missed important details.

[DarkRaichu]

What if the barista is Jane's rapist?  Jane's outfit in her flashback suggested she attended a formal attire event when she met the rapist.  Perhaps the rapist dressed up for the event too.  In his day job he wears tshirt, jeans, and apron which are considerably different than the suit he wore that night.  As far as smell, the smell of coffee & cafe kitchen would mask any cologne that he regularly wears.

So barista attends trivia night after taking shower and spraying some cologne, wearing a suit and the same pair of dress shoes. ie. He does not need to dress up that much so only has 1 pair of dress shoes in 6 years.  During trivia night Jane ID him based on smell and his shoe prints on the sand.

[spankydoll]

On 3/27/2017 at 11:25 PM, walnutqueen said:

Celeste will never be safe from Perry - seaside apartment notwithstanding.  That therapist is sorely lacking in real life experience if she thinks "moving out but remaining in the boy's school district" is a viable escape plan.  There are very few "exit strategies" outside of the Witness Protection Program from someone like him; even less than do not involve his death.

Sometimes it does. My Mom 35 years ago  people shouldn't lose all hope!

It is not going to be my sweet, sweet coffee man. No way and no how.