S01.E04: Push Comes to Shove

[gesundheit]

I like the show but I'm getting really tired of the overuse of pop songs. Half the time it feels like that's just to fill time, and I certainly don't need any more scenes of Jane jogging with her iPod, listening to some must-be-expensive song. And of COURSE Ziggy loves Jefferson Airplane!

[Ina123]

10 minutes ago, gesundheit said:

I like the show but I'm getting really tired of the overuse of pop songs. Half the time it feels like that's just to fill time, and I certainly don't need any more scenes of Jane jogging with her iPod, listening to some must-be-expensive song. And of COURSE Ziggy loves Jefferson Airplane!

I'm just not buying that Jane would be so thrilled that Ziggy knew all the lyrics. What does she say if he asks, "what does this mean?" Oh, it's about Alice in Wonderland? I guess a child Ziggy's age would leave it at that.

[gesundheit]

That's my problem with every tv show/movie where someone just shows up at someone else's job and wants to have a conversation. Bitch, I'm at work! Email me, text me, leave me a voicemail, whatever. I WILL RESPOND WHEN I AM NOT AT WORK.

Hell, I feel that way when they stop by people's homes unannounced too! If my buzzer rings and I'm not expecting anyone (or a delivery), I'm ignoring it. If somebody stopped by my job, it better be the damn apocalypse.

(I do always crack up when people go stand outside some high-powered person's massive skyscraper of an office building and catch them on their way out of work or on their way to lunch, like by some magic they knew exactly which of the 25 doors and at what precise time that person would be walking out. Oh, TV. You so silly.)

[MaryWebGirl]

3 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

That meeting with the Mayor was so good.  He seems like such a manipulative cheeseball and Renata was just fakely giggling all over him; they were both so schmoozey and annoying.

I thought this was great insight into Renata as well. Just laughing and kissing the mayor's ass to get her way rather than using solid arguments for their position. No wonder Madeline hates her so much if that's how she acts.

I also love @bubble sparkly's theory about the source of Abby's stress being that she found out about her mom's affair. It would play into an undercurrent of the kids knowing more than we give them credit for, like the twins probably knowing that their dad hits their mom (which I think was shown with the bedroom scene where one of them walked in).

[gesundheit]

  23 minutes ago, gesundheit said:

I like the show but I'm getting really tired of the overuse of pop songs. Half the time it feels like that's just to fill time, and I certainly don't need any more scenes of Jane jogging with her iPod, listening to some must-be-expensive song. And of COURSE Ziggy loves Jefferson Airplane!

I'm just not buying that Jane would be so thrilled that Ziggy knew all the lyrics. What does she say if he asks, "what does this mean?" Oh, it's about Alice in Wonderland? I guess a child Ziggy's age would leave it at that.

I suppose, but hey, this is a kid that already knows about one-night-stands!

It's really odd to me that so many little kids on this show know all the lyrics to songs that are even a generation or two past their parents' ages. Sure, some people are into things that aren't their demographic, but EVERYONE in Monterey AND their children? Okay, sure.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

8 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

I'm just not buying that Jane would be so thrilled that Ziggy knew all the lyrics. What does she say if he asks, "what does this mean?" Oh, it's about Alice in Wonderland? I guess a child Ziggy's age would leave it at that.

I don't have an issue with that. There are always songs that kids sing along with but the lyrics go over their heads. There were elementary school kids singing "Afternoon Delight" in the 70s, "Like a Virgin" and "Papa Don't Preach" in the 80s, and "If You Seek Amy" ten years ago. Sometimes they get it, sometimes they don't.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, gesundheit said:

I like the show but I'm getting really tired of the overuse of pop songs. Half the time it feels like that's just to fill time, and I certainly don't need any more scenes of Jane jogging with her iPod, listening to some must-be-expensive song. And of COURSE Ziggy loves Jefferson Airplane!

The only song I really disliked was that "I'm not no Limburger" one from last episode.  

1 minute ago, gesundheit said:

I suppose, but hey, this is a kid that already knows about one-night-stands!

It's really odd to me that so many little kids on this show know all the lyrics to songs that are even a generation or two past their parents' ages. Sure, some people are into things that aren't their demographic, but EVERYONE in Monterey AND their children? Okay, sure.

I love how they wrote the kids like little adults, and the adults like spoiled, snotty kids.

2 minutes ago, MaryWebGirl said:

I also love @bubble sparkly's theory about the source of Abby's stress being that she found out about her mom's affair. It would play into an undercurrent of the kids knowing more than we give them credit for, like the twins probably knowing that their dad hits their mom (which I think was shown with the bedroom scene where one of them walked in).

Abigail could be a little disgusted with Maddy for it which would make her like Bonnie more and want to move out more.  Especially if she really likes Ed (in a normal step-parent kinda way).

[stagmania]

3 hours ago, Juliegirlj said:

Nathan's facade has dropped and he seems like quite an angry man, and Bonnie said something like "we all have baggage/damage" is making me suspect Nathan as Jane's rapist. That yoga class seemed more like a self defense class- another hint that perhaps Bonnie intuitively suspects Nathan has a dark side. 

I think that was hinting at something in Bonnie's past, not Nathan's. He seems to just be your garden variety narcissistic asshole.

[Guest]

Am I the only one who has found Nathan pretty sympathetic so far?  I see his point in most of these arguments.  I would get annoyed with stuff like spending $9000 on grounding a house against electromagnetic energy to address Maddy's irrational fear of brain cancer, too, or not being able to wear insect repellent while camping, or having to arrange a dinner with Maddy and Ed, who act consistently like jerks to Bonnie and Nathan.  He wasn't an active parent for Abigail while young which is bad but he's trying to make amends and change.  

He and Bonnie kind of feel like the voice of reason or the voice of the audience to me.  They're not doing the passive aggressive and snide stuff and are kind of balking at it in Nathan's case, or trying to work around it, in Bonnie's.  

[dmc]

Am I the only one who has found Nathan pretty sympathetic so far?  I see his point in most of these arguments.  I would get annoyed with stuff like spending $9000 on grounding a house against electromagnetic energy to address Maddy's irrational fear of brain cancer, too, or not being able to wear insect repellent while camping, or having to arrange a dinner with Maddy and Ed, who act consistently like jerks to Bonnie and Nathan.  He wasn't an active parent for Abigail while young which is bad but he's trying to make amends and change.  

He and Bonnie kind of feel like the voice of reason or the voice of the audience to me.  They're not doing the passive aggressive and snide stuff and are kind of balking at it in Nathan's case, or trying to work around it, in Bonnie's.  

I think Maddie's issues with Nathan are from before...it seems like he has changed and she resents that he changed for Bonnie

[dmc]

Ed seems so creepy this episode...talking about the sweaty women and his whole convo with Bonnie seems off kilter.
I love how Maddie's first instinct after being told about the rape...is to look for the rapist.
The teacher asking the child about Ziggy is an example of why people being abused lie when on the spot. They feel uncomfortable, scared and are being pressured to give a name
 

Edited March 13, 2017 by dmc

[stagmania]

I think the fact that Nathan is still throwing that stuff from their past in her face, for no real reason and mostly unprompted, shows what an ass he is. Especially given the context that he left her and their daughter. What kind of person abandons his wife and then still has the audacity to bitch to her about how hard it is to get back to a positive relationship and how much she annoys him? 

Edited March 13, 2017 by stagmania

[mochamajesty]

Whether Perry is insecure or not - does it matter?

There are some things that are so horrible about a person that nothing else matters, at least for me.

I have heard some say about an abuser, 'But he is a good father.".  Huh?  How can you be a good father and beat the mother of those same kids?

It is the tendency to look for the good in people that keep women with these creeps.

[dmc]

3 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

Whether Perry is insecure or not - does it matter?

There are some things that are so horrible about a person that nothing else matters, at least for me.

I have heard some say about an abuser, 'But he is a good father.".  Huh?  How can you be a good father and beat the mother of those same kids?

It is the tendency to look for the good in people that keep women with these creeps.

I mean it doesn't matter in the context of hitting his wife and that being wrong.  But to a therapist, yes it would matter because if you can find the root of his insecurity it could lead to him getting the help he needs to get better

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I think the fact that Nathan is still throwing that stuff from their past in her face, for no real reason and mostly unprompted, shows what an ass he is. Especially given the context that he left her and their daughter. What kind of person abandons his wife and then still has the audacity to bitch to her about how hard it is to get back to a positive relationship and how much she annoys him? 

I saw Maddy sit down and immediately start being snide and sarcastic and ridiculing him and she asked if the dinner was Bonnie's idea.  He basically said, "yes, I go along with her crazy ideas like I did yours" and gave some examples.  He was visibly annoyed but she was being so annoying.  

Maddy seems to get a lot of free passes.  She's usually pretty snide and insulting to people.  I did love her character at first but I feel like I'm not under that spell, anymore.  I think Reese and the writers are genius to have her still seem so likable to most viewers.  

[nara]

Just now, mochamajesty said:

Whether Perry is insecure or not - does it matter?

There are some things that are so horrible about a person that nothing else matters, at least for me.

I have heard some say about an abuser, 'But he is a good father.".  Huh?  How can you be a good father and beat the mother of those same kids?

It is the tendency to look for the good in people that keep women with these creeps.

It matters in the way that properly diagnosing an illness is necessary for applying a cure or a treatment plan.  After all, it's better for Perry to be cured of his abusive behavior, rather than just having Celeste no longer be the victim.  It's great if she leaves the situation, but he will go on to abuse someone else.

It doesn't really matter for the plot of this show.

[mochamajesty]

3 minutes ago, dmc said:

I mean it doesn't matter in the context of hitting his wife and that being wrong.  But to a therapist, yes it would matter because if you can find the root of his insecurity it could lead to him getting the help he needs to get better

I do not believe that abusers can change - so we will agree to disagree.

[dmc]

Just now, mochamajesty said:

I do not believe that abusers can change - so we will agree to disagree.

LOL when did I say all abusers can change, I said therapists would want to know the root of your issue.  This is basic therapy. 

[mochamajesty]

3 minutes ago, nara said:

It matters in the way that properly diagnosing an illness is necessary for applying a cure or a treatment plan.  After all, it's better for Perry to be cured of his abusive behavior, rather than just having Celeste no longer be the victim.  It's great if she leaves the situation, but he will go on to abuse someone else.

It doesn't really matter for the plot of this show.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Thanks.

[stagmania]

11 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I saw Maddy sit down and immediately start being snide and sarcastic and ridiculing him and she asked if the dinner was Bonnie's idea.  He basically said, "yes, I go along with her crazy ideas like I did yours" and gave some examples.  He was visibly annoyed but she was being so annoying.  

Yeah, you just described the behavior of an asshole. The dinner clearly was Bonnie's idea, because she's the one who cares about Abigail and having a good relationship with Abigail's mom, and he should care about those things, too. But he doesn't, and he basically admitted that, and then piled on by not only calling his new wife's ideas crazy, but also bitching about the wife he left, to her face. Maddie is definitely not friendly to him and it's not the most mature way to handle it, but it's fairly easy to see that her behavior comes from a place of deep hurt. If he was actually contrite about his past behavior he would accept that he deserves it.

Wow, I really do not like Nathan.

Edited March 13, 2017 by stagmania

[Guest]

1 minute ago, mochamajesty said:

I do not believe that abusers can change - so we will agree to disagree.

Do you believe they're born that way?  So maybe Ziggy, being the product of a violent father, is destined to abuse women all his life?  I personally don't believe in that but I guess there is some evidence of some behavior tendencies being genetic and this show is the second I've seen this year that has a mother showing fear of it.  

[susannot]

7 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

I do not believe that abusers can change - so we will agree to disagree.

Found this article: http://www.thehotline.org/2013/09/is-change-possible-in-an-abuser/.

The author states that a very low percentage of abusers ever change.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, stagmania said:

Yeah, you just described the behavior of an asshole. The dinner clearly was Bonnie's idea, because she's the one who cares about Abigail and having a good relationship with Abigail's mom, and he's should care about those things, too. But he doesn't, and he basically admitted that, and then piled on by not only calling his new wife's ideas crazy, but also bitching about the wife he left, to her face. Maddie is definitely not friendly to him and it's not the most mature way to handle it, but it's fairly easy to see that her behavior comes from a place of deep hurt. If he was actually contrite about his past behavior he would accept that he deserves it.

In my take, he does seem to care about those things, too.  He just doesn't think a dinner with the four of them is the best path, given that Ed and Maddy seem unable to get past their petty anger issues.  

I don't know if he deserves to be treated with snide sarcasm and thinly veiled hostility forever, and Bonnie, too, because he couldn't make it work with Maddy 15 years ago.  I think the adult thing to do is for Maddy to try to meet him halfway over parenting issues.  It's not about her hurt anymore.  She keeps putting herself before her kids.  She did it with Chloe, too.  

[Kostgard]

4 hours ago, BeatrixK said:

I can actually understand this character more, coming off the heels of a mentally/emotionally abusive relationship.  (I literally often tell people that, in a weird way, I wished my ex would have broken my arm or something -- so I could point to 'See...THIS is what he did.'

Perry is written as a classic sociopathic narcissist -- and so, given the amount of time they have been together, it's quite likely she's been a victim of slow, deliberate Narcissistic abuse.  It's gradual, it's deliberate, it's about controlling the victim, and, as an outsider, you can't imagine how someone involved doesn't see it  -- NA is done in cycles -- but, in a nutshell, the abuser love bombs, idealizes the victim, then begins the devaluing phase and the cycle repeats (That is an extreme nutshell version.)  I cannot stress how slow and incremental it is  -- so, by the time it gets to Perry's level, you have absolutely no idea how you got there, but the abuse has become the 'norm', and a skilled NARC has convinced you that 1.) you deserve it, 2.) you aren't smart enough to exist without the NARC, and 3.) you will take whatever they get, because 'no one knows him like I do...they don't understand XYZ about him.', their 'love bombing phase' makes you think THAT is the real person you 'love', so you wait for that part of the cycle to begin again, and at the point of abuse we are at watching the Perry/Celeste relationship, the abuse has become her 'norm.' 

I can tell you from personal experience, that yes -- some of the smartest, most capable people are reduced to shells of their former selves due to NA, and they aren't as keenly aware of what the abuse has done to them, so they don't get the 'impetus' to get out -- and it sucks to have to admit to yourself that you've given up your career, parts of your self, and your love to someone who never loved you to begin with and you were nothing but an object to reflect their overinflated ego.

Completely agree. I fortunately have no firsthand knowledge of this, but from what I've seen in some people I know and what I've read, they are portraying Perry perfectly. It really hit home this episode when he was freaking out at the possibility of Celeste going back to work (even for a one-off thing where she's helping a friend). First he gets violent with her for not telling him about it first - not getting his permission. It doesn't work and she helps Maddy anyway. Then he starts in about how he's worried about her anxiety/stress levels. Grooming her to believe that she's too fragile to be independent and do this sort of thing. She needs to stay at home and let him call all the shots so she doesn't have to stress about this stuff. That doesn't really work either and she scoffs at the idea. So he immediately shifts to Plan C - ask for another baby. Another pregnancy and another newborn that would keep her at home and under his control. He hit her with three angles of attack to get her to stay at home under his control all in under 24 hours. I guess you could even say four - he knows that she's still attracted to him, so while he initially is forceful about it (and framing it as trying for a new baby), he backs off and plays nice because he knows it pushes the right buttons, and then she's pouncing on him and getting sucked right back into the cycle. He won that round. 

Perry was telling the truth when he told the therapist he was afraid Celeste would leave him. But it's not about being left brokenhearted. It's about not being able to control her every move. 

I'm in the camp that hopes Ed is just a socially awkward dork who's feeling a bit lonely because he has a wife who isn't attracted to him and barely touches him (by her own admission) and not because he's some dangerous creeper. Really just because it would be nice if there was one guy on this show who didn't totally suck.

Because Nathan sucks too. He's just as obsessed with Maddy and all her faults as she is with his. And him suggesting they move seems to indicate that "cut and run" is his go-to solution for all his problems.

But I warmed to Bonnie considerably this episode. She was just totally over this Maddy/Nathan war and the stupid dinner. And yeah - she's the only person who seems to be trying to have a relationship with Abigail. Both Nathan and Maddy are too wrapped up in their own dramas. Bonnie actually talks to her and pays attention to her/knows what is going on in her life. Just the small moment when Abigail was trying to leave to go hang out with her friends said a lot - Nathan was too busy complaining about Maddy to even pay attention to her and it was up to Bonnie to give her permission to go because she was the only adult paying attention.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Kostgard

[dmc]

Just now, susannot said:

Found this article: http://www.thehotline.org/2013/09/is-change-possible-in-an-abuser/.

The author states that a very low percentage of abusers ever change.

this doesn't surprise...therapy is HARD...you really have to put in the work to change patterns

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Kostgard said:

Abigail was trying to leave to go hang out with her friends said a lot - Nathan was too busy complaining about Maddy to even pay attention to her and it was up to Bonnie to give her permission to go because she was the only adult paying attention.

Actually, Nathan was over-parenting there and Bonnie was waving Abigail on and rolling her eyes at him.  Nathan noticed Abigail leaving and asked where she was going and with who and what she was carrying, and said he had to be careful about things because Maddy doesn't want her hanging out with stupid people and she's already mad about the SAT tutor.  I feel bad for him.  He's trying to learn to parent a teen for the first time and has Maddy watching over his shoulder ready to pounce and Bonnie trying to reel him in.  

He does say some stupid stuff and it probably doesn't help that he's constantly drinking beer, though.  

[stagmania]

6 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

In my take, he does seem to care about those things, too.  He just doesn't think a dinner with the four of them is the best path, given that Ed and Maddy seem unable to get past their petty anger issues.  

We're just going to have to agree to disagree there. In this same episode, Nathan suggested that he and Bonnie and Skye just move away, so really not seeing how he cares about good relationships with Abigail and Madeline. 

6 minutes ago, Kostgard said:

But I warmed to Bonnie considerably this episode. She was just totally over this Maddy/Nathan war and the stupid dinner. And yeah - she's the only person who seems to be trying to have a relationship with Abigail. Both Nathan and Maddy are too wrapped up in their own dramas. Bonnie actually talks to her and pays attention to her/knows what is going on in her life. Just the small moment when Abigail was trying to leave to go hang out with her friends said a lot - Nathan was too busy complaining about Maddy to even pay attention to her and it was up to Bonnie to give her permission to go because she was the only adult paying attention.

I completely agree. I'm starting to think Bonnie is a more important part of this narrative than I originally realized. She's the one who seems to understand the family dynamics at play and really care about doing her part to make them work. Last week I wondered if her seeming pushiness with Madeline comes from a place of good intentions, and now I definitely think that it does. She may be the only adult in this story who is just trying to do the right thing, even if she makes mistakes.

[lmsweb]

What started the whole thing with Maddy and Nathan at their lunch meeting was that Nathan just went ahead and cancelled Abby's SAT tutor, without telling Maddy, and never mind the fact that Abby's marks have dropped drastically already.

I'd be peeved off too if my ex did that without talking to me about it first.

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, stagmania said:

We're just going to have to agree to disagree there. In this same episode, Nathan suggested that he and Bonnie and Skye just move away, so really not seeing how he cares about good relationships with Abigail and Madeline. 

I think you can have a good relationship with your daughter without being pals with her mother, or even living in the same town.  I'm not sure their little kids being in the same class is the best idea, given Maddy's inability to put the past behind them.  I think the move away thing was out of frustration with the nutso personalities he's being forced to deal with.  (But I totally agree to disagree and appreciate the input.  I'm not trying to push my opinion.  It's just interesting to me how differently people see things.  It's one thing I like about the show is discussing the characters.)

We didn't see anything about the tutor fight.  Maybe Abigail has good reasons for not wanting this tutor.  Though it sounds like she just doesn't want to aim for a top school like Maddy seems rabid for.  If she's under a lot of stress, maybe it's not the best time for SAT tutoring.  She could be preferring to focus on her classwork instead.  SAT prep can be, and normally is, something kids just do alone with a book or software, if at all.  It's mostly what to see what you've learned so far, unless you really lack test taking skills and can brush up on those.  

Edited March 13, 2017 by Guest

[Kostgard]

10 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Actually, Nathan was over-parenting there and Bonnie was waving Abigail on and rolling her eyes at him.  Nathan noticed Abigail leaving and asked where she was going and with who and what she was carrying, and said he had to be careful about things because Maddy doesn't want her hanging out with stupid people and she's already mad about the SAT tutor.  I feel bad for him.  He's trying to learn to parent a teen for the first time and has Maddy watching over his shoulder ready to pounce and Bonnie trying to reel him in.  

He does say some stupid stuff and it probably doesn't help that he's constantly drinking beer, though.  

You're right - I remembered the scene a bit wrong. But it still felt like Nathan was more focused on his war with Maddy than on Abigail. After she left he didn't sit down and tell Bonnie how worried he was about Abigail. He complained about Maddy some more then suggested they move. Both he and Maddy are more concerned about what the other does than what their kid actually does. 

[Guest]

I just noticed, too, Nathan smiled at the end of that scene and said "A man's allowed to fantasize." about his suggestion to move away from Maddy (presumably with Abigail).  So I don't think we're supposed to think he was all that serious.  

[stagmania]

10 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I just noticed, too, Nathan smiled at the end of that scene and said "A man's allowed to fantasize." about his suggestion to move away from Maddy (presumably with Abigail).  So I don't think we're supposed to think he was all that serious.  

Bonnie asked where Abigail would go if they moved, and he didn't seem to have an answer, IIRC. His fantasy didn't involve bringing her along.

[Lemons]

15 hours ago, susannot said:

I have to admit I do not understand Nicole's character. I'm hoping someone can explain it to me. I am a lawyer and have lots of female lawyer friends.  Literally not a single one married a good looking abuser who forbade them to work as lawyers.  The female lawyer friends I have had for my entire life would have recoiled in horror over marrying a man like that, good looking be damned.  I realize, dramatic license, but still, find very unrealistic.

I don't think it's unrealistic.  She happens to be a lawyer by trade, the character could have had any job.  Women do get conned by men, they start off as seeming attentive and affectionate and they end up being abusive.  Sometimes its hard to leave because of financial reasons.  This obviously isn't the case.  I think her image is what's stopping her from leaving, and maybe the fear of being alone. 

I don't think the guy is good looking at all!  

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Bonnie asked where Abigail would go if they moved, and he didn't seem to have an answer, IIRC. His fantasy didn't involve bringing her along.

Or it was a fantasy so he didn't have answers to specific questions.  Why would a dad not want to bring his daughter he just reconnected with?  Their relationship has been shown to be ok.  I guess if you see him with asshole glasses, it's all different, though.  Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just interesting to me.  

1 minute ago, Lemons said:

I don't think the guy is good looking at all!  

Me either.  Beady, sunken, close-set eyes, weak chin, huge forehead... It's just not my thing.  

[hoodooznoodooz]

3 hours ago, mochamajesty said:

No one mentioned that scene after Celeste escapes with the kid. Perry almost put his fist through a wall.  He was full of seething rage. And after the moment passes - is he full of remorse?  Does he have one iota of,  'What have I done?".  No. He grabs his briefcase and walks out of the door as 'normal' as you please.

That is more frightening than the abuse scene in some ways. How many guys (or gals) walk about as normal but just beat up their spouse? 
This is what abuse looks like, folks.   This is real.

I would be very uncomfortable there. Just saying.

I thought the acting was superb, when one of the twins calls out, "Mom?" and Perry shoves Celeste behind him. She staggers, and he tries to look light-hearted and joyful for his son. For me, it was even more violent than the neck grab. "I just tried to choke you, but now I'm going to shove you out of sight so that my son won't see what a monster I am."

[vibeology]

2 hours ago, Ina123 said:

I'm just not buying that Jane would be so thrilled that Ziggy knew all the lyrics. What does she say if he asks, "what does this mean?" Oh, it's about Alice in Wonderland? I guess a child Ziggy's age would leave it at that.

I knew that song when I was Ziggy's age (though that was many years ago from one of my mom's old records) and I just thought it was a fun song about Alice in Wonderland so I can easily believe that Ziggy just thinks it's a fun song and Jane hasn't had to worry about it.

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Am I the only one who has found Nathan pretty sympathetic so far?  I see his point in most of these arguments.  I would get annoyed with stuff like spending $9000 on grounding a house against electromagnetic energy to address Maddy's irrational fear of brain cancer, too, or not being able to wear insect repellent while camping, or having to arrange a dinner with Maddy and Ed, who act consistently like jerks to Bonnie and Nathan.  He wasn't an active parent for Abigail while young which is bad but he's trying to make amends and change.  

He and Bonnie kind of feel like the voice of reason or the voice of the audience to me.  They're not doing the passive aggressive and snide stuff and are kind of balking at it in Nathan's case, or trying to work around it, in Bonnie's.  

I think Nathan is a bit of an ass, but so is almost everyone around him so I'm not hating on him. He screwed up when Abigail was younger and left and as a result really wasn't a part of much of her childhood. For Madeline that must feel like she did all the hard work alone and now Nathan and Bonnie are swooping in and upsetting the apple cart. That has to suck. But for Nathan, he left a relationship that wasn't working and went away. (I can't remember how clear the show has been on where he went and how long he was gone.) He screwed up and now he's back and trying. And yes, I do think Bonnie is a big part of why he's trying, but he's still trying and the result of that is that he is constantly guilted by Madeline and has to see Ed where he was supposed to be, doing "better" and that has to suck too. It's a crappy situation where Nathan can't really win; if he tries now Madeline is just bitter that he didn't try before but if he doesn't try now Madeline is angry that he isn't there for Abigail. So yes, I'm sympathetic to him but I also feel for Madeline. She has to watch the man who left her be there for his new family when he wasn't willing/able to do that for her. Ultimately, Madeline is going to have to be the one to decide to let go of her anger and bitterness and forgive but I also get why that's very hard.

Really, moving back to the same neighbourhood was probably the mistake. Nathan and Bonnie could live close by without being right there with kids in the same school and travelling in the same social circles. It's California. Driving is not a big deal. But now they're back and they've established a life so all they can do is figure out a way to work as two sets of parents to Abigail.

[Atlanta]

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

My favorite was on The O.C. when Kirsten talked about going to yogalates class and Sandy told her, 'You just like saying yogalates."

He is the director of the play. She does marketing for the theater as a part time job so technically he isn't her boss as they've both been hired by the theater. They would obviously have interaction regarding Avenue Q, but he isn't her supervisor.

Ha ha! Yes! I remember that OC episode. I take a class that incorporates yoga, Pilates and Tai Chi. 

Don't like the Maddie and play director plot. Someone mentioned that this should have been a movie rather than a 7 part series. They're throwing stuff in for the sake of throwing stuff in IMO. 

Tired of seeing Nicole/Celeste naked. Is this to draw male viewers?

Poor Ed. I think he's just awkward and not a Pervy McPerv. As a straight woman, I'd give Zoe's body a double take and then ask what she does to maintain it so I can find that class. LOL At first, I thought she was teaching kickboxing.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Atlanta

[Guest]

For the record, I totally feel for Maddy, having Abigail move out.  I'm a single mom with a daughter that age whose under-involved father lives a mile away and if she up and decided to move in with him (especially if a perfect stepmom/replacement was in the picture), I would be crushed.  But I would hope I would be able to put my hurt feelings aside for co-parenting, too.  

I really feel for all four of them to some extent.  The step-parent thing is hard.  At least with Abigail being so old in a few years they can probably just drift apart (the parents) and maybe some of those old wounds will heal or at least quit hurting Abigail as collateral damage.  

[Lucelu]

Hmm, I must have fallen asleep and thought I picked up the re-airing when I woke up but missed the scene with the mayor (long work day). Apparently Abigal already took the SATs and received poor marks which is why Madeline is insisting she work with a tutor and retake the exam. Her other marks in school have taken a dive and the story she gave to her school counselor about having stress and anxiety at home I believe is a crock. She seemed pretty relaxed there, and very secretive. Madeline caught her in a car full of girls she was not supposed to be in and she is flagrantly disobedient, disrespectful and needles her mother unnecessarily. This kid is truly playing these adults against each other. That Bonnie and Nathan nor Abigal did not alert Madeline to the fact she was taken to Planned Parenthood for birth control pills is alarming. I got the impression that Nathan and Bonnie with their daughter recently surfaced in their lives again; judging by Madeline's emotions about this, it just seems kind of raw for this to have been going on for 6 years.

[DarkRaichu]

17 hours ago, mochamajesty said:

Ed is a Creeper. Making inappropriate comments during his visit to Bonnie, ogling that lady as he was leaving. Is it a stretch to believe that he was ogling Abigail?

Eh, there is a big difference between ogling someone whom he raises as his own and ogling a random woman in tight outfit after (at least a year, assuming the start of Maddy's affair) of no action at home.  

Not saying it was not creepy and I am not excusing the ogling, but there is a line.  I am giving him the benefit of doubt until we see the line being crossed on screen

Edited March 13, 2017 by DarkRaichu

[nara]

Just now, DarkRaichu said:

Not saying it was not creepy and I am not excusing the ogling, but there is a line

There's more than a line, there's a CHASM.  

Sorry, I couldn't resist.  BTW, was it really necessary for them to pile on to Nathan's offenses by making him mispronounce that word?

[Ina123]

1 hour ago, mochamajesty said:

I do not believe that abusers can change - so we will agree to disagree.

My cousin and his wife are both shrinks. They say it's almost impossible to change an abuser and most shrinks agree that it *is* impossible to fix a rapist and/or pedophile.

[stagmania]

18 minutes ago, nara said:

There's more than a line, there's a CHASM.  

Sorry, I couldn't resist.  BTW, was it really necessary for them to pile on to Nathan's offenses by making him mispronounce that word?

I loved the way Madeline didn't directly correct him, but made a point to repeat the word and say it correctly. 

[dd21dd21]

Jeez.. I almost want to apologize to Celeste personally for even giving Perry the benefit of the doubt last episode ...what a monster.. Alexander Skarsgaard is amazing in this role, whenever he walks into the scene I get scared

 

and speaking of giving ppl the benefit of the doubt I think Adam Scott's character (still dont remember his name) is just awkward. I took his comment to Bonnie as he likes to see a hard working women, but maybe that's just me

 

and im bothered that the little girl (Amabella?) has no eyebrows lol

Edited March 13, 2017 by dd21dd21

[DarkRaichu]

16 hours ago, nara said:

That big talk about punching Ed makes me wonder if he's the rapist--a desire to make himself the big man, but wouldn't actually fight someone his size...

But Jane met Nathan in kids orientation in ep1 and did not have any reaction to him. 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

How Much Free Time Does Big Little Lies's Ed Have On His Hands?

And how much time is the show going to spend on this stupid dinner? Eve Batey has questions!

[Guest]

I want to punch Ed and I'm not a rapist.  LOL.  I found myself feeling sorry for Maddy when he was in her face rubbing her back in the kitchen with all the, "Tell me, honey, I'll make you feel all better" stuff.  

I wonder what the rapist's awful smell is... cologne, I guess.  I can't wait to see Jane recoil in horror at the trivia night.  

If it's Perry, which seems most likely, it seems a little simplistic to have the wife beater also the date rapist.  Wouldn't that usually be two pretty distinct types?  Though obviously both sharing similar violence and control issues.  But date rape doesn't jibe with the descriptions so many have posted here of slowly reeling in your abuse victim.  Though I guess if it's Perry he's already got Celeste reeled in at home and date-raping would just be a fun extracurricular activity.  Maybe that's what most of his business trips are-- going out of town for dates under assumed names.

If you watch the twin closely when he walks in on his parents fighting, his eyes dart between them suspiciously for a second, while he's acting outwardly casual.  

I didn't like the "Bloody Motherfuckin Asshole" song at the end any better than the Limburger one.  Or really the Alabama Shakes one at the beginning.  The lyrics are pretty literal to the action with these songs, aren't they? 

Edited March 13, 2017 by Guest

[DarkRaichu]

2 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Actually, Nathan was over-parenting there and Bonnie was waving Abigail on and rolling her eyes at him.  Nathan noticed Abigail leaving and asked where she was going and with who and what she was carrying, and said he had to be careful about things because Maddy doesn't want her hanging out with stupid people and she's already mad about the SAT tutor.  I feel bad for him.  He's trying to learn to parent a teen for the first time and has Maddy watching over his shoulder ready to pounce and Bonnie trying to reel him in.  

He does say some stupid stuff and it probably doesn't help that he's constantly drinking beer, though.  

He's the whiner type that had the nerve to complain about his current wife to his ex whom he left alone to raise their daughter.  

Although it is funny how he is basically under the thumbs of 2 women, his wife and his daughter's mother, now that Abigail is living with him.  Hmm so maybe Bonnie is a good tactician after all.

[DarkRaichu]

Just 1 thing to add to abusive relationship of Perry and Celeste.  At 1 point he said something along the line of "Sometimes I wonder, do you want me to hit you? "  That was one kind of sick and twisted, but then Celeste's expression was along the line of "I wonder that too".  Ugh

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

He's the whiner type that had the nerve to complain about his current wife to his ex whom he left alone to raise their daughter.  

My take was he's complaining about Bonnie's idea of the four of them to sitting down for dinner.  I think it's a stupid idea, too.  I never got the impression he has anything but love for Bonnie.  I love Bonnie.  But dinner with the four of them-- torture.  Bonnie's giving them all way too much credit for maturity, which is funny given she's what a decade or more younger than the three of them.