“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[catrox14]

22 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I have no idea where this belongs, but to be safe..   Can somebody tell me if this was a scripted line? It seems like something Bobby might say, but I don't recall it. I'm unclear why anyone would want this (but clearly people do as it's a re-issue). I guess if you're anti-Winchesters? Maybe I'm just missing the joke?

 

The only line I remember is from Slash Fiction "Well, if your gonna be stupid, you might as well be smart about it."

It also sounds like a Crowley line too

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

The only line I remember is from Slash Fiction "Well, if your gonna be stupid, you might as well be smart about it."

It also sounds like a Crowley line too

That was Bobby when he sent the guys to Frank Devereaux.

Btw I refuse to believe Frank is dead.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

That was Bobby when he sent the guys to Frank Devereaux.

Btw I refuse to believe Frank is dead.

Totally. He was smart enough to fake his death.

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Totally. He was smart enough to fake his death.

And the leviathans were smart enough to impersonate him had they found him, instead of just eating him and taking off.

[DeeDee79]

5 hours ago, BornToDie said:

Jensen is not the only star of the show and I’ve never read anything about him saying this.  This constant need to tear down Jared in order to build up Jensen is pretty gross.

I find this to be an interesting take considering that not one post on this thread has said anything against Jared while talking about Jensen. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by DeeDee79

[BornToDie]

8 hours ago, ahrtee said:

This is not a zero sum game.  Fans preferring one character does not "tear down" the other--it's an opinion.   I personally enjoy seeing Dean front and center in the poster (especially since IMO his role in the show has been diminished over the last few years), but I'm not saying Sam shouldn't be there.  It has nothing to do with Jensen or Jared.

Sorry, but the way the post was phrased doesn’t come off as “just an opinion” to me.  It came off as a need to diminish Sam’s role on the show.

[DeeDee79]

7 minutes ago, BornToDie said:

Sorry, but the way the post was phrased doesn’t come off as “just an opinion” to me.  It came off as a need to diminish Sam’s role on the show.

But Sam/Jared wasn’t even mentioned. I don’t see how a positive comment about Jensen  can be construed as negativity towards Jared.

[ahrtee]

12 minutes ago, BornToDie said:

Sorry, but the way the post was phrased doesn’t come off as “just an opinion” to me.  It came off as a need to diminish Sam’s role on the show.

I'm sorry you feel that way.  To me, the way it was phrased: 

On 5/10/2021 at 4:03 PM, FlickChick said:

Well, we DeanGirls know he was always the star of the show. 

sounds like an opinion of those DeanGirls, not the producers, showrunners, or any other fans.  I'm sure the SamGirls also believe Sam was really the star of the show.  Why does that diminish anyone?  It doesn't say anything negative about Sam or Jared, and it absolutely doesn't change any facts about what part either one played in the show or how they were written.  Everything else is personal interpretation.  

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I'm sorry you feel that way.  To me, the way it was phrased: 

sounds like an opinion of those DeanGirls, not the producers, showrunners, or any other fans.  I'm sure the SamGirls also believe Sam was really the star of the show.  Why does that diminish anyone?  It doesn't say anything negative about Sam or Jared, and it absolutely doesn't change any facts about what part either one played in the show or how they were written.  Everything else is personal interpretation.  

I completely agree! Preferring one actor/ Winchester over the other doesn’t diminish either one.

[PAForrest]

17 hours ago, ahrtee said:

This is not a zero sum game.  Fans preferring one character does not "tear down" the other--it's an opinion.   I personally enjoy seeing Dean front and center in the poster (especially since IMO his role in the show has been diminished over the last few years)...

Given the epic screwing over Dean and Jensen got in the finale, allowing him to be slightly front and center in a stylized piece of cover art that's not even new - it was already used back in another special issue of TVG before the COVID break - is the textbook definition of the very "least" that could be done here.

And it is definitely an artist's stylized rendition - not exactly a canonical snapshot of the show. Then again, we're talking about a show with years of LOL!canon - i.e., canon was abandoned ages ago, so have at it Mr. or Ms. Artist, do whatever the hell you want. It's not like the showrunners and writers of this show didn't screw up everything week after week themselves. That's kind of all they did.

I like it, white wings and all. I liked it back when we first saw it which was, again, late 2019/early 2020? And as a Jensen fan, sure, I like that Jensen is front and center. And it is Jensen, just as it is Jared - neither are in character in this poster.

Edited May 13, 2021 by PAForrest

[FlickChick]

18 hours ago, BornToDie said:

Sorry, but the way the post was phrased doesn’t come off as “just an opinion” to me.  It came off as a need to diminish Sam’s role on the show.

I wasn't going to even respond to you, but since you felt the need to discuss this further in this thread, I will. I prefer Dean as a character and Jensen as a actor and as such, see him as the star of the show, always have, always will. You obviously prefer Sam/Jared and that's fine. I said nothing about Sam's role on the show, so that is your interpretation of what I posted, not what was stated in the post. And I didn't appreciate your criticism of my brief post stating my view. I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate a criticism of a post of yours praising Sam/Jared.

[gonzosgirrl]

Another deleted/extended scene from S15 (presumably 15x19) in which Dean & Sam 'raise a glass' to those they've lost along the way.  No lie, it took me a hot minute to remember who "Kelly" was, and then it was WTF? Why would Dean (of all people) lament Kelly, especially in the same breath as Mary and John?  So ridiculous. Badd & Co truly had no idea who these characters were.

But mostly this just served to remind me that nobody,  not one effing person, raised a glass for Dean. I will never, ever forgive Badd for that.

https://tvline.com/2021/05/21/supernatural-season-15-episode-19-dean-sam-toast-cas-deleted-scene-video/

[Castiels Cat]

On 5/22/2021 at 12:43 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

Another deleted/extended scene from S15 (presumably 15x19) in which Dean & Sam 'raise a glass' to those they've lost along the way.  No lie, it took me a hot minute to remember who "Kelly" was, and then it was WTF? Why would Dean (of all people) lament Kelly, especially in the same breath as Mary and John?  So ridiculous. Badd & Co truly had no idea who these characters were.

But mostly this just served to remind me that nobody,  not one effing person, raised a glass for Dean. I will never, ever forgive Badd for that.

https://tvline.com/2021/05/21/supernatural-season-15-episode-19-dean-sam-toast-cas-deleted-scene-video/

She was the plot stealer, show stealer's mother. Of course Dabb would want to raise a glass to Kelly. 

[Castiels Cat]

On 5/12/2021 at 10:04 PM, ahrtee said:

I'm sorry you feel that way.  To me, the way it was phrased: 

sounds like an opinion of those DeanGirls, not the producers, showrunners, or any other fans.  I'm sure the SamGirls also believe Sam was really the star of the show.  Why does that diminish anyone?  It doesn't say anything negative about Sam or Jared, and it absolutely doesn't change any facts about what part either one played in the show or how they were written.  Everything else is personal interpretation.  

Dean Winchester and Jensen Ackles have also won the lion's share of awards including that prestigious Critics Choice Actimg Award. This alone should have steered the writing in Dean's favor.

There is something Wayward as to why Dean's storylines were dropped and Sam's never were. Why was Dean's storyline handed to a secondary character with so little thought they never even plotted it.

Whatever changes happened in s 5 clearly bothered the writers. They threw in hints like  title Jumping the Shark and created created a child antichrist... lol... to detract from the fact that Sam was the literal antichrist.

Dean's early and ginormous finale death was ... unforgivable. I believe that the old man wig was Jared's punishment. You do not pull put a joke in a series finale. He was forced to wear it.

There used to be rumblings of rumors about his temper tantrums forcing Story changes favoring Sam and throwing Dean under the bus like s 5... probably like so many seasons.

IDK.

Jensen was the actor getting the awards.  He has the bigger fan base. The writing should have been going his way.

Edited June 27, 2021 by Castiels Cat

[gonzosgirrl]

From the finale thread.

On 9/8/2021 at 1:41 AM, roamyn said:

I disagree abt S14.  That was one of the better seasons IMO.  They actually made Jack interesting, Dean had good storylines, and Mary was a minimum.  I just wish they had done something more w/Sam, other than being a great leader of the AU hunters. In fact I’d say of the final five seasons it’s my favorite.

I am at a loss at how S14 was good for Dean? They had his Michael storyline cut to hell, had him (as an Archangel) get his ass kicked by a teenage girl, and then handed his story over to the Spawn. Not to mention making Dean the bad guy for being less than thrilled about Jack killing his mother, which lead directly to him groveling to Cas for forgiveness in S15. Ugh. It makes me throw up in my mouth a little just typing that out. It's my opinion, and I will never be convinced otherwise, that it was the handling of his Michael storyline -beginning with that god awful puppet fight in 13x23- that was the catalyst for Jensen pulling the plug. I'll also never be convinced that it wasn't Jensen who decided that it was over.

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I will never be convinced otherwise, that it was the handling of his Michael storyline -beginning with that god awful puppet fight in 13x23- that was the catalyst for Jensen pulling the plug. I'll also never be convinced that it wasn't Jensen who decided that it was over.

Yep!

[roamyn]

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

From the finale thread.

I am at a loss at how S14 was good for Dean? They had his Michael storyline cut to hell, had him (as an Archangel) get his ass kicked by a teenage girl, and then handed his story over to the Spawn. Not to mention making Dean the bad guy for being less than thrilled about Jack killing his mother, which lead directly to him groveling to Cas for forgiveness in S15. Ugh. It makes me throw up in my mouth a little just typing that out. It's my opinion, and I will never be convinced otherwise, that it was the handling of his Michael storyline -beginning with that god awful puppet fight in 13x23- that was the catalyst for Jensen pulling the plug. I'll also never be convinced that it wasn't Jensen who decided that it was over.

I don’t necessarily mean ‘good’ for Dean, but he had a storyline, a compelling reason to act the way he did.

Unlike Sam, who basically had nothing to do, but run the hunter network.

TPTB gave Jared nothing, but gave Jensen the opportunity to flex his acting muscles.

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, roamyn said:

Unlike Sam, who basically had nothing to do, but run the hunter network.

TPTB gave Jared nothing, but gave Jensen the opportunity to flex his acting muscles.

I disagree.  Sam's leadership story was given far more focus and attention then Michael was.  IMO, they let Jensen play Michael as a way to get Jensen off screen. Dabb did say that removing Jensen gave other's breathing room. 

The season premier was all about how great Chief was.   I feel like Stranger in a strange land referred more to Sam being in a leadership postilion than about Michael. 

Michael had about 3 scenes. And the scene where he speaks Arabic was cut.  (there was an audio recording of the scene that was much longer) and it cut so much of Michael's motivation.

But with the whole leader ship thing it was driving home again and again just how awesome Sam was this.  Nightmare Logic was all about Chief the awesome and best leader in the history of leaders (or they tried to tell us this).  When Sam got called out for a very real mistake he made, we had 3 follow scenes telling us how wrong Bobby was and just how amazing Chief actually was. Even Bobby apologized that the end.

Dabb and co. had been trying to push Sam as a leader ever since Who We Are and it wasn't working because Jensen naturally dominates on screen.  I feel like this was supposed to be the dominate storyline of the first half of 14 but Jared wasn't strong enough to pull it off.

 

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, roamyn said:

I don’t necessarily mean ‘good’ for Dean, but he had a storyline, a compelling reason to act the way he did.

Unlike Sam, who basically had nothing to do, but run the hunter network.

TPTB gave Jared nothing, but gave Jensen the opportunity to flex his acting muscles.

Yeah I'll just agree to disagree with all of this.  There's a reason the show ended so abruptly when as recently as the 300th episode they were tallking about how they could go on forever. That reason, IMO was S14. Badd screwed Jensen over one too many times. Jensen is a pro and did the most he could with the crap they gave him, but it was lipstick on a pig. 

[roamyn]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yeah I'll just agree to disagree with all of this.  There's a reason the show ended so abruptly when as recently as the 300th episode they were tallking about how they could go on forever. That reason, IMO was S14. Badd screwed Jensen over one too many times. Jensen is a pro and did the most he could with the crap they gave him, but it was lipstick on a pig. 
 

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I disagree.  Sam's leadership story was given far more focus and attention then Michael was.  IMO, they let Jensen play Michael as a way to get Jensen off screen. Dabb did say that removing Jensen gave other's breathing room. 

The season premier was all about how great Chief was.   I feel like Stranger in a strange land referred more to Sam being in a leadership postilion than about Michael. 

Well, we’ll have to, because that’s not how I see S14.  Sam got to be ‘Chief’ for all of two or three episodes.

And I hate Dabb, but I don’t believe he screwed Jensen over this season.  S15, yes.  He committed character assassination on both Dean & Chuck.

[gonzosgirrl]

11 hours ago, roamyn said:

And I hate Dabb, but I don’t believe he screwed Jensen over this season.

Right out of the gate he cut/cut down his Michael scenes - including a rather significant one that went to motivation. He gave some of the most interesting 'Michael' scenes to other actors. And worst of all, when Jensen actually asked for some direction (like a professional actor does), Badd basically ignored him and left him to twist.

Meanwhile it was reported that he had dinner with JP to discuss things. As for the Chief nonsense - they never missed a chance for other characters to praise Sam for his Chief-ness, ad nauseum. The freaking season opened with him 'yelling' demons back to Hell. Don't even get me started on selfish, self-righteous Sam and his 'I believe in us, why don't you' bilge (hey Sam, remember when Dean supported you jumping into the pit to save humanity, because you asked him to?) . Yet somehow Sam was the hero for that, while Dean was a quitting quitter who quits.

Edited September 30, 2021 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Right out of the gate he cut/cut down his Michael scenes - including a rather significant one that went to motivation. He gave some of the most interesting 'Michael' scenes to other actors. And worst of all, when Jensen actually asked for some direction (like a professional actor does), Badd basically ignored him and left him to twist.

yup, and he took Jared out to dinner to discuss the leadership story.  That clearly shows his motivations.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

yup, and he took Jared out to dinner to discuss the leadership story.  That clearly shows his motivations.

I was editing when you posted, but yes, exactly.

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Right out of the gate he cut/cut down his Michael scenes - including a rather significant one that went to motivation. He gave some of the most interesting 'Michael' scenes to other actors. And worst of all, when Jensen actually asked for some direction (like a professional actor does), Badd basically ignored him and left him to twist.

This one baffled me then and still does. My only thought is that he took that scene out to hold the reveal for after they captured Michael....which didn't matter because then Michael ended up in Rowena anyway.  So stupid.

And IMO another big F/U to Jensen, was bringing OG Michael back in Adam...who the show didn't give a shit about for what 7 or 8 seasons? (Which I was fine with him never being brought back).

As for Sam, whilst we might not have seen a lot of Chief Sam becoming Chief Sam, after seeing him YELL at demons to make them leave (LOLOLOOL so ridiculous), he was being called Chief despite insisting to Dean he asked his minions to stop, which they did not,which more than drove home his exalted status.  And he was such the martyr what with no sleep, no eat, so much that Mary actually fussed over him. He continued to be seen as Chief for the first half of s14 in nearly every episode by reference and him on the phone giving advice.  Now, as to how good he was at being Chief Sam, is a different discussion, but I think it's fair to note Sam didn't fall out of nor was removed from his own storyline and no one else played Chief Sam but Jared.

[tessathereaper]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

yup, and he took Jared out to dinner to discuss the leadership story.  That clearly shows his motivations.

I believe he also took ALEX out to dinner to discuss his plotline for the season.  Meanwhile he wouldn't even answer Jensen's questions over the phone.  Why?  Because he had nothing to tell him. Michael wasn't really a storyline it was an excuse to get him out of the picture.

Dabb saw it as a way to get Dean out of the picture so he could do his Leader!Sam storyline without Jensen as Dean standing right there looking like a leader just by existing, unfortunately even having Dean out of the picture didn't help make Sam a convincing leader.

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

I believe he also took ALEX out to dinner to discuss his plotline for the season. 

I believe Jared mentioned it in one of his comic con roundtables.

[Pondlass1]

A pox on Dabb. But we did get the masterpiece Regarding Dean during his era. Maybe he was on vacation that week because the mirror scene would’ve surely been cut.

Don't get me started on Michael because I still gnash my teeth at the thought. A huge glaring Missed Opportunity 😡Jensen would’ve killed it. And we had waited so long.

Personally I don’t think even Jared was comfortable with the Chief storyline.  Sam falls into ‘follower’ naturally.  I didn't like second rate hunters milling about the bunker either. 
 

[DeeDee79]

22 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Dabb and co. had been trying to push Sam as a leader ever since Who We Are and it wasn't working because Jensen naturally dominates on screen.  

This is so true! It always happens no matter who he's filming with. Even if it's an equally strong actor ( Mark Sheppard for instance ) you can't help but be drawn to Dean whenever he is on screen. 

[MAK]

17 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Personally I don’t think even Jared was comfortable with the Chief storyline.  Sam falls into ‘follower’ naturally.  I didn't like second rate hunters milling about the bunker either. 

I never understood why all those people were suddenly hunters. And why was Sam sending out newbies on solo hunts? Even with live audio/video? This from a person who has (almost) always hunted with a partner? (Another pet peeve, probably wrong thread, but why all the daughter/son/sister/kid fics have to have the teenager insist they can do it solo when their parents/mentors, supposedly the best hunters ever, always work with partners?)

IMO, a leader who is worn out, and doesn't properly delegate, is not the best leader.

10 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

This is so true! It always happens no matter who he's filming with. Even if it's an equally strong actor ( Mark Sheppard for instance ) you can't help but be drawn to Dean whenever he is on screen. 

One way to think about this is what if in the First Blood episode, Sam had taken over the comms and threatened the CIA (or whatever) guy? If, JP and JA had switched dialogues? I don't think those scenes in the forest would have had as much punch. I've seen JP be scary and authoritative, but I don't know if that would have been enough. But that could be in JP's acting in how he chooses to portray Sam. 

In my case, anyway, when Dean is on screen, I want to look at him and what he is doing or wait to see what he is going say. With Sam, it's more of a poor baby, and you want to comfort him a little. Writing? Acting choices? 

[7kstar]

10 hours ago, MAK said:

But that could be in JP's acting in how he chooses to portray Sam. 

I never would have stuck with this show if it had been the JP hour.  His acting is limited and he does a certain type well, but he doesn't draw me in or keep me engaged. 

JA on the other hand, did.  If they had created a better storyline that didn't show how much they wanted to sideline JA, I think they could have explored it.  But with poor writing and directing well, it doesn't land well.

My biggest issue with the later years of bad writing, I still can't enjoy the earlier years.  Just watched the pilot and skipped through most of the scenes.  I used to love the pilot, but now it's like okay the scene that Dean's in jail, the first time we see the family, the boy's reunion, Dean jumping off the bridge and the last shot of Dean rescuing Sam, and the music scene are what's worth watching.  I was doing something while the rest was playing.

I know as I forget the last few years, I'll enjoy the beginning again...but I'll never support Dabb in any new show.  It's not like I think all the writers before were awesome either.  I've always disliked something they did, but Dabb has the worst track record for me.  For those that loved the last few seasons, fine.  We don't have to agree.  A show should have a variety of fans that love it for many different reasons.  Had there been a season 16, I would have just given up.  Even Jensen couldn't have saved the show for me.  I need more than just liking an actor.

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, 7kstar said:

Had there been a season 16, I would have just given up.  Even Jensen couldn't have saved the show for me.  I need more than just liking an actor.

The last 4 and half seasons were a chore to watch. Every Thursday was never filled with anticipation. More like dread!

It doesn't diminish my love for the first 11 and half seasons though. I kind of look at it like a completely different show.  As far as I'm concerned Supernatural ended when Drabb took over.

[FlickChick]

I won't allow Badd to ruin my favorite show (and character in Dean) of all time. I simply view him as the asshole he is with a small, vindictive mind and probably an envious johnson. Yes, the heart of the show ended for me at the conclusion of S11 (like my DVDs). There are a handful of episodes I enjoyed in those later years, but I've saved them to my DVR. I rewatch S1-S11 on a regular basis, put asshole Badd out of my mind, and enjoy!

[Lemuria]

Think how much worse the Leader!Sam storyline would have been if Badd and Co. had actually known what the qualities of a good leader were.  At least, instead, we got a Sam who:

*couldn't prioritize;

*couldn't delegate (either for his ego of thinking he was doing everything or because he didn't trust his people enough); 

*had his "troops" wasting their time on ordinary hunts--which they were not expert at and which any other hunters could do--instead of doing what they did have experience and knowledge in: fighting angels and finding Michael (we also never really saw Sam train them in hunting monsters);

*couldn't make the hard choices;

*couldn't say "no" (I mean, in the first ep they're going into what they know is a trap and therefore Sam needed his best people and he ends up letting two useless people come along because he couldn't put his foot down);

*couldn't apparently get any of the older more experienced fighters to stay with him except the one who was jonesing for his Mom;

*makes an arrogant, egotistical boast that, if he had been dealing with real demons instead of those Hell rejects would have sneered at;

*needed his Mom and her boyfriend to tell him (and the audience) what a great leader he was;

*couldn't even get his people to stop calling him something he swears he didn't want them to call him (yeah, right! Pull the other leg, Sam);

Just to name a few things!

[tessathereaper]

5 hours ago, Lemuria said:

Think how much worse the Leader!Sam storyline would have been if Badd and Co. had actually known what the qualities of a good leader were.  At least, instead, we got a Sam who:

*couldn't prioritize;

*couldn't delegate (either for his ego of thinking he was doing everything or because he didn't trust his people enough); 

*had his "troops" wasting their time on ordinary hunts--which they were not expert at and which any other hunters could do--instead of doing what they did have experience and knowledge in: fighting angels and finding Michael (we also never really saw Sam train them in hunting monsters);

*couldn't make the hard choices;

*couldn't say "no" (I mean, in the first ep they're going into what they know is a trap and therefore Sam needed his best people and he ends up letting two useless people come along because he couldn't put his foot down);

*couldn't apparently get any of the older more experienced fighters to stay with him except the one who was jonesing for his Mom;

*makes an arrogant, egotistical boast that, if he had been dealing with real demons instead of those Hell rejects would have sneered at;

*needed his Mom and her boyfriend to tell him (and the audience) what a great leader he was;

*couldn't even get his people to stop calling him something he swears he didn't want them to call him (yeah, right! Pull the other leg, Sam);

Just to name a few things!

I guess that is true. LOL  All they succeeded in doing is showing what a bloody AWFUL leader Sam was and why it had naturally fallen to Dean.  Hell Dean in various eps over the years and esp early on when they dealt with more "regular people", was shown to be able to even put to use the talents of non-hunters if they were stuck in a situation where they needed everyone on defense.  And it came across as very natural that he'd be looked to as leader by people who didn't even know him, because he had that vibe of protectiveness and knowing what he was doing.

Edited October 5, 2021 by tessathereaper

[MAK]

Dean just did what was needed. With no chance of reward, acceptance or even a pat on the back. 

The show has always shown that Dean was the manager/strategist and Sam was the researcher. They combined their strengths and had successful hunts. If informed adults (one time even a child) decided they wanted to help, he let them. He didn't want Ellen and Jo to be part of the fight against Lucifer, but he accepted their right to choose. (The only one he would ever sideline was Sam.) That is a mark of a good leader.

The leader, "the Chief," has to be able to make those hard choices, put his foot down, and not cater to the team members, everyone in a mission does not have an equal voice. Unfortunately,  Sam somehow missed each of those things. 

[BabySpinach]

It's the good ol' Show vs. Tell. Tell us that the sun shines out of Sam's ass but fail to actually show it, and Show us how competent and natural Dean is yet never once acknowledge it in text. It's a frustrating disservice to both characters, but in different ways. At least Dean doesn't unintentionally come off as phony or incompetent, I suppose.

[tessathereaper]

3 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

It's the good ol' Show vs. Tell. Tell us that the sun shines out of Sam's ass but fail to actually show it, and Show us how competent and natural Dean is yet never once acknowledge it in text. It's a frustrating disservice to both characters, but in different ways. At least Dean doesn't unintentionally come off as phony or incompetent, I suppose.

I kind of feel like half the show was just an exercise in gaslighting the audience, like I sometimes wonder if it was literally part of an experiment to see how much people would buy the tell vs the show and unfortunately with much of the audience, apparently it's a heck of a lot.

[Casseiopeia]

31 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

I kind of feel like half the show was just an exercise in gaslighting the audience,

I think it was also making Brad and Eugenie head writers and the CW/WB letting Singer get away with it.

[tessathereaper]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

I think it was also making Brad and Eugenie head writers and the CW/WB letting Singer get away with it.

LOL Nepotism or science experiment, it could go either way. :)

[Aeryn13]

5 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

I kind of feel like half the show was just an exercise in gaslighting the audience, like I sometimes wonder if it was literally part of an experiment to see how much people would buy the tell vs the show and unfortunately with much of the audience, apparently it's a heck of a lot.

The tell always works more on people because they often take what is harped on enough at face value. That's why lots of writers never even bother with showing a character has certain qualities but only repeat it in text or have other characters give either fawning or disparaging speeches. 

The only thing you can't sell about a character like this is them being "cool". Supposedly smart, competent, good, evil, saintly, whatever, it all works. But sonehow coolness can't be sold via text but only viscerally to the audience.

Sam got enough ego stroking as a leader, they could have shown him randomely gettiing 20 people killed through incompetence in every single episode and most of the audience would have still gone with the tell. Especially on a CW show where the writing quality has taken shocking nosedives in the last 5 or so years. I know they were always kind of belittled as a network but seriously the shows weren't as badly written as they are now. SPN fit right in, they even kind of pioneered this trend in terms of established shows.   

[Pondlass1]

He had it made. He inherited a well oiled machine. He inherited a talented team of actors, and one dreamy and brilliant actor.  But Twitter led him about by the nose apparently 

[ILoveReading]

From @Katy M is the Social Media thread.

Quote

Well, yes, they both get treated like children, but in different ways.  Jared like he doesn't know any better when he does something wrong.  Jensen like he can't take care of himself.  And I'm of course not saying everyone does this.  And since this did involve a death, if this were the only incident I see it, I wouldn't have even said anything.

 

TBH, I find Jensen gets treated as if he doesn't have feelings.  I still remember when we found out Danneel was pregnant with twins.  It was just before a con.  People actually said not to congratulate Jensen because it would be awkward if Danneel had a miscarriage and then these same people asked Jared how he feels, and what he would name them.

That fact that people are accusing others of infantilizing Jensen for expressing concern speaks volumes to me.  Because if it was Jared, We love you Jared would have trended and people would be talking about making we love Jared books and demanding people be extra nice to him.  There is a clear double standard in this fandom in how it treats Jared and Jensen.

After this incident, there were so many posts saying, this isn't about Jensen, as if worrying whether he was okay was wrong because he wasn't directly effected.  I even saw one person say he wasn't traumatized because he's from Texas.   

Jensen is strong.  No one is denying that, but too often the strong one is the person overlooked and the last one to be asked how he is doing.

Regardless, of whether he was on set.  He was supposed to be in that scene.  It has to hit him, how easily he could have been on the other end of that gun.  Working on Walker, less than 2 weeks after this, where he might have to direct someone getting shot, has to be hard on anyone.  I hope Jared talked to Jensen and made adjustments to the script if Jensen expressed concern.  This isn't about him not being capable- see opening of 15, its about losing a colleague/friend.

Wondering if its too soon is not infantailizing.  Its normal.  As for the con, its the anniversary of the confession scene and hellers, and this fandom loves to throw "gotcha" questions at Jensen (see the question about female Jack).   So them being jerks to Jensen isn't unreasonable to expect,

If Jensen is a little more closed off emotionally, which is entirely possible, I can already here people calling him cold.

IMO, the reason I think its too soon is because so many in this fandom (and this is not directed at anyone here) don't see Jensen as a person in his own right.   He's just an extension of their fave. Of course, Jensen will do what is right for him, but if ihe's a little off his game, I can easily see both sides taking advantage of that. 

We also know that Jensen will do whatever he can to honor his commitments.   He showed up at a con the day after his twins were born.  Even this last con, he asked his bosses on a brand new production if they can let him have Sunday off, even though he was a main character and filmed on weekends.  No one appreciated him making that effort.  Multiple people cancelled.  Jensen is the only one that got hate for it.  Misha fans gloated and said he must have changed his day because he wanted to be with Misha, and Jared fans criticized him saying he was avoiding Jared.  Which emphasizes my point about so many only seeing him as an extension of their fave (this don't apply to everyone of course).

 

Edited October 31, 2021 by ILoveReading

[FlickChick]

@ILoveReading, this is so sad to read. This show has been over for almost a year and we still have crazy ass fans that just won't quit with their harassment of Jensen in particular, but anyone as you say, who is not their favorite. If I were Jensen, I think I would find a way to exit fandom, conventions, etc., simply to move on from this toxic atmosphere.

When you mentioned about the fact that Jensen was supposed to be in that scene, that was my thought - he could have been on the receiving end of that bullet. I hope people stop and think how they would react, how they would "carry on", how they would feel about this tragic incident if they were involved this closely. Sometimes I really wonder what's wrong with people today. 🙁

[Myrelle]

On 10/31/2021 at 8:09 AM, ILoveReading said:

From @Katy M is the Social Media thread.

 

TBH, I find Jensen gets treated as if he doesn't have feelings.  I still remember when we found out Danneel was pregnant with twins.  It was just before a con.  People actually said not to congratulate Jensen because it would be awkward if Danneel had a miscarriage and then these same people asked Jared how he feels, and what he would name them.

That fact that people are accusing others of infantilizing Jensen for expressing concern speaks volumes to me.  Because if it was Jared, We love you Jared would have trended and people would be talking about making we love Jared books and demanding people be extra nice to him.  There is a clear double standard in this fandom in how it treats Jared and Jensen.

After this incident, there were so many posts saying, this isn't about Jensen, as if worrying whether he was okay was wrong because he wasn't directly effected.  I even saw one person say he wasn't traumatized because he's from Texas.   

Jensen is strong.  No one is denying that, but too often the strong one is the person overlooked and the last one to be asked how he is doing.

Regardless, of whether he was on set.  He was supposed to be in that scene.  It has to hit him, how easily he could have been on the other end of that gun.  Working on Walker, less than 2 weeks after this, where he might have to direct someone getting shot, has to be hard on anyone.  I hope Jared talked to Jensen and made adjustments to the script if Jensen expressed concern.  This isn't about him not being capable- see opening of 15, its about losing a colleague/friend.

Wondering if its too soon is not infantailizing.  Its normal.  As for the con, its the anniversary of the confession scene and hellers, and this fandom loves to throw "gotcha" questions at Jensen (see the question about female Jack).   So them being jerks to Jensen isn't unreasonable to expect,

If Jensen is a little more closed off emotionally, which is entirely possible, I can already here people calling him cold.

IMO, the reason I think its too soon is because so many in this fandom (and this is not directed at anyone here) don't see Jensen as a person in his own right.   He's just an extension of their fave. Of course, Jensen will do what is right for him, but if ihe's a little off his game, I can easily see both sides taking advantage of that. 

We also know that Jensen will do whatever he can to honor his commitments.   He showed up at a con the day after his twins were born.  Even this last con, he asked his bosses on a brand new production if they can let him have Sunday off, even though he was a main character and filmed on weekends.  No one appreciated him making that effort.  Multiple people cancelled.  Jensen is the only one that got hate for it.  Misha fans gloated and said he must have changed his day because he wanted to be with Misha, and Jared fans criticized him saying he was avoiding Jared.  Which emphasizes my point about so many only seeing him as an extension of their fave (this don't apply to everyone of course).

 

Thanks for this post, ILOVEREADING.

It's perfect.

Every word of it.

On 10/31/2021 at 5:45 PM, FlickChick said:

Sometimes I really wonder what's wrong with people today. 🙁

You and me both, FLICKCHICK. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Myrelle

[Casseiopeia]

On 10/31/2021 at 2:45 PM, FlickChick said:

When you mentioned about the fact that Jensen was supposed to be in that scene, that was my thought

I read a minute by minute account of that day posted in the L.A. Times. The "main cast" other than Alec were in a separate  building after they had just finished filming their scene (riding into town). They heard the shot/commotion and were told to stay in place. So I would presume that Jensen as part of the main cast was there with the other cast members.

I think the "shoot out" that Alec was rehearsing when the gun went off was supposed to be between Alec and the pursuing posse which would have included Jensen.

[FlickChick]

21 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I think the "shoot out" that Alec was rehearsing when the gun went off was supposed to be between Alec and the pursuing posse which would have included Jensen.

If that is accurate, that's way, way too close for comfort. I know that Jensen was excited to be in a western, but I believe Alec said that he didn't think that production would resume, which doesn't surprise me. Hopefully, Jensen will have another opportunity in a safer environment to get to film a western.

[Casseiopeia]

37 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Hopefully, Jensen will have another opportunity in a safer environment to get to film a western

Well he does have a production co. I'm telling you Samuel Colt  Cowboys and Demons. 

I don't see how Alec could possibly step foot on that set again. It does look like the movie is not going to go forward. From what I understand the movie was a tax write off for the production company. It was never supposed to make money anyway.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Casseiopeia

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, FlickChick said:

If that is accurate, that's way, way too close for comfort. I know that Jensen was excited to be in a western, but I believe Alec said that he didn't think that production would resume, which doesn't surprise me. Hopefully, Jensen will have another opportunity in a safer environment to get to film a western.

That's a big "If" in this day and age of "reporting".

I've read so many conflicting reports that I don't know how they will ever get to the bottom of things, tbh.

One of the actors who was supposedly a part of that main cast tweeted early on that he was only 30 feet away from it when the shooting happened.

[ILoveReading]

While I do think there is very little chance of this production resuming, I wouldn't call Alec's statement an interview.  He was cornered by paparazzi, he said he stopped because his children were crying.  Anyone could see he was in no real shape to be dealing with the press.

[Myrelle]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

While I do think there is very little chance of this production resuming, I wouldn't call Alec's statement an interview.  He was cornered by paparazzi, he said he stopped because his children were crying.  Anyone could see he was in no real shape to be dealing with the press.

They're all over him.

And he's a very polarizing celebrity because of his Trump impression. 

I'm sure there are no few out there who hate him and are all over this and couldn't care less that a life was lost except for how it can possibly be used to discredit him.

Makes Dean's "Demons, I get. People are crazy" quote seem more like a real statement of our times than just a scripted line from a little horror show.