Airmid December 15, 2020 Share December 15, 2020 (edited) @tessathereaper That may well be, but the finale is what it is, so trying to find a better way to view it as. I don't honestly think they actually meant the finale to feel so Sam focused [for lack of a better word] - Dean was supposed to die heroically saving some kids while Sam gets his normal life/independence. Instead he just kind of ghosts through life with his one big thing being having a child. I've mentioned before that this is a miserable end for both characters. While Dean doesn't get to have an actual life of his own, he doesn't have to continue suffering by himself on earth like Sam did. He got to go at least in a way that would be meaningful to him, find out pretty fast that heaven was redone, and also not have to wait decades to see Sam, as time isn't a thing that effects him the same way. Dean doesn't suffer the same way Sam does. In the end, it's making the best out of sour lemons, and I don't think these writers could have given them a life-long happy ending. Instead of just ending the series on the two brothers together with endless possibilities on earth in front of them, they chose to make sure both died and it was always going to be ugly simply because it wouldn't be done justice by this writing team, made even worse by the Covid restrictions, and the obvious reasoning as to why this had to happen [i.e. Dabb not letting anyone else play with his toys]. Instead, we go all the way back to a rather unhealthy co-dependency where neither can be happy or free. IMO, it's not which brother got to live the full life on earth that makes this so bad, it's the fact that they were never able to find true happiness on earth, neither are really their own person, and neither are free. Which is why I personally like to think that the series ended way before this point and the Dabb years were caused by a djinn feeding on one of them before being rescued. Edited December 15, 2020 by Airmid 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6501924
ahrtee December 15, 2020 Share December 15, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, tessathereaper said: That doesn't really work for me because it's still making it about Sam, and what Sam deserves, even if it's negative, rather than what Dean deserves. Dean deserved life. It wouldn't have been perfect, life never is, but it would have been his and I'm pretty sure he'd have been happy with it. That's actually why the ending does (sort of) work for me now. *Sam is out of Dean's picture.* It truly is his "peace when you're done," and *that's* what I think he deserves. Not that I think they don't want to be together, or won't want to spend at least part of eternity together, but Dean has been worrying about Sam since he was 4 years old. He's had the weight of the world on his shoulders for at least the last 11 years. *He's finally free!* All the worrying, all the recriminations, all the guilt, all gone. I'm going to assume that the new, improved Heaven will allow him to go wherever he wants, do whatever he wants (possibly even including hunting!) and see whoever he wants. He doesn't have to be tied to Sam, because he doesn't have to protect him, and he has others around who love him. He can finally discover who he truly is without worrying about Sam or the end of the world. Sounds pretty good to me, TBH. Did I wish he hadn't been 'done' quite so soon? Sure. But place Dean's death 20 or 30 years in the future, when he's started to feel too old or irrelevant (being treated as either an old geezer or hunter emeritus) and a shorter, active life seems better for him. So, yeah, I can pretend that Dean had a few years and a few more adventures before dying (again, most likely on a hunt.) Yes, I would have liked a better funeral (and less of the "you're better than me" death speech), but to me it becomes irrelevant once they're separated. We can cut directly to him in heaven, driving around with a smile on his face. He didn't seem to care that Sam wasn't there at the moment, hadn't been watching him and mourning (or even rejoicing over youngDean), which seems to me to show that he and Sam don't have to be joined at the hip (to borrow a phrase) to be happy there. And that gives me hope that he can finally enjoy himself and be who he is and not just a part of the whole, "soulmates" or not. He's not Amara, to be absorbed by his brother. He's Dean Fucking Winchester. 😊 ETA: Dean has *already* left a legacy, both with the viewers/fans, and with the characters on the show. All the Winchesters were legendary in the hunter community (apparently, much more than the Campbells who'd been "chopping heads off vamps on the Mayflower") so they won't be forgotten. And the rest: their legacy is in the people they saved, and their descendants. Most don't even know them, have never heard of them, but the fact that they exist at all is the Winchester legacy. And no matter when or how they died, nothing can change that. Edited December 15, 2020 by ahrtee 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6501931
Pondlass1 December 16, 2020 Share December 16, 2020 Time’s different up here — I think Bobby said that? — so I assumed while watching the finale that Dean had been on that bridge just minutes before Sam showed up. It wouldn’t be any type of heaven without Sam, without Baby and without a hunt to tackle. Sitting about drinking beer and shooting the shit with Bobby for forty years before Sam arrived would be some kind of hell for Dean. He’s action man. Dean’s codependency is epic even after death. He’s not perfect. He’s not going to be perfect just because he’s in heaven. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6502125
Myrelle December 16, 2020 Share December 16, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: They could still have done the rough beats of the Finale but with a much better execution. Like, make it clear some time has passed, like a year or two where both enjoyed life. Shoot Dean's death in a better way. Like actually protecting one of the children. Cut/change a lot of "I'm so inferior to you" speech. Then make a real funeral where you acknowledge that Dean has a legacy and will be missed. Show him do something in heaven other than being shelved till Sam arrives. Make the reunion a better scene, instead of the meh "hey". Give the freaking show a legacy and acknowledge the people saved and the world made better. This was missing entirely. Not 1 % of the Series Finale did that. And nope, that's not the task of any episode prior. Not that any did. The penultimate didn’t either Yup. This sums up my problems with the last episodes perfectly and if they would have simply given us the bolded parts, I could have and likely would have been mostly content; and this, even after all the deconstruction that Dabb and co. perpetrated on the series and it's characters in it's last seasons. But sadly, they stayed true to form and consistent even in their inabilities as writers all the way to the end and what we got reflected those same inabilities that many of us here have been bemoaning since s12. I think many of us were hoping and praying against hope that they would somehow find a way to rise above their pettiness and give us at least those bolded words, and this, even while we knew that to still be a highly unlikely scenario. And because of that sad lack, a pall has been cast over many of the earlier episodes/seasons of the show now for some of us. Maybe that will change with more time and distance from the ending, but three weeks is not enough for me. I turned on TNT this week and the episode The Chitters was on and in the end, when Cesar and Jesse drove off to their life of freedom from hunting, to their life of raising horses and working their ranch, all I could think was how sad and unfair it was that The Winchesters were never rewarded with anything even close to that, not even for a short time, although Sam got to at least give it the old college try once more. And lastly, I can't see Dean as ever truly being content or happy in any reality that he knows to be unreal even if it's named Heaven. To me, there is just too much of the wild and untamed and unpredictable in him for him to find a true and lasting happiness in a reality that promises none of those things to him, not in the true sense of those words. Edited December 16, 2020 by Myrelle 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6502255
BabySpinach December 16, 2020 Share December 16, 2020 4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: They could still have done the rough beats of the Finale but with a much better execution. Like, make it clear some time has passed, like a year or two where both enjoyed life. Shoot Dean's death in a better way. Like actually protecting one of the children. Cut/change a lot of "I'm so inferior to you" speech. Then make a real funeral where you acknowledge that Dean has a legacy and will be missed. Show him do something in heaven other than being shelved till Sam arrives. Make the reunion a better scene, instead of the meh "hey". Give the freaking show a legacy and acknowledge the people saved and the world made better. This was missing entirely. Not 1 % of the Series Finale did that. And nope, that's not the task of any episode prior. Not that any did. The penultimate didn’t either. It wouldn't be as bad if Badd himself hadn't retconned this Chuck story/ they never mattered or did anything nonsense because now everything is questionable. And the first episode afterward happened to be this garbage Finale. There's no question that even with the bones of the finale still intact there could have been many, many improvements made to it. We'd probably be here all day listing them out. I'm just glad that Dean wasn't saddled with Sam's ending and vice versa. On a more detached, meta level, Dean's character fared better out of the two, IMO. That's the only bit of comfort I can take from the finale, so I'll take it! 😬 6 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6502367
MAK December 16, 2020 Share December 16, 2020 Just went through this thread loving everyone's comments. I agree with all of it. Especially how, for something that on paper might have supposed to be a Sam gets happily ever after and Dean's just gone episode, it turned out to be Dean's the main character episode! Couldn't see Dean living a happily ever after without Sam. Like someone said, his codependency is infamous. He would have gone on hunting and died alone. Can't see him partnering up with someone else. So for Dean to have a happy ending, he had to die first. Of course I wish he had more time as a free man to explore his own happiness and his own dreams, with or without involving Sam, but knowing Sam was happy, healthy, and alive. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6502664
tessathereaper December 16, 2020 Share December 16, 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, Airmid said: @tessathereaper That may well be, but the finale is what it is, so trying to find a better way to view it as. I don't honestly think they actually meant the finale to feel so Sam focused [for lack of a better word] - Dean was supposed to die heroically saving some kids while Sam gets his normal life/independence. Instead he just kind of ghosts through life with his one big thing being having a child. I've mentioned before that this is a miserable end for both characters. While Dean doesn't get to have an actual life of his own, he doesn't have to continue suffering by himself on earth like Sam did. He got to go at least in a way that would be meaningful to him, find out pretty fast that heaven was redone, and also not have to wait decades to see Sam, as time isn't a thing that effects him the same way. Dean doesn't suffer the same way Sam does. In the end, it's making the best out of sour lemons, and I don't think these writers could have given them a life-long happy ending. Instead of just ending the series on the two brothers together with endless possibilities on earth in front of them, they chose to make sure both died and it was always going to be ugly simply because it wouldn't be done justice by this writing team, made even worse by the Covid restrictions, and the obvious reasoning as to why this had to happen [i.e. Dabb not letting anyone else play with his toys]. Instead, we go all the way back to a rather unhealthy co-dependency where neither can be happy or free. IMO, it's not which brother got to live the full life on earth that makes this so bad, it's the fact that they were never able to find true happiness on earth, neither are really their own person, and neither are free. Which is why I personally like to think that the series ended way before this point and the Dabb years were caused by a djinn feeding on one of them before being rescued. I definitely prefer to think of it as a Djinn dream. LOL Quote Time’s different up here — I think Bobby said that? — so I assumed while watching the finale that Dean had been on that bridge just minutes before Sam showed up. It wouldn’t be any type of heaven without Sam, without Baby and without a hunt to tackle. Sitting about drinking beer and shooting the shit with Bobby for forty years before Sam arrived would be some kind of hell for Dean. He’s action man. Dean’s codependency is epic even after death. He’s not perfect. He’s not going to be perfect just because he’s in heaven. There aren't going to be hunts to tackle in Heaven. So I'm pretty sure it would still be Hell for Dean, so to speak. IMO it just doesn't fit the character, not anymore. Maybe ten years ago, though maybe not even then by that point. The idea that Dean needed to die, that he was better off dead than alive, just doesn't feel right. I don't know, I think Dean would have probably done better without Sam than Sam without Dean. Dean pretty much always did do better without Sam than Sam did without Dean. Sam without Dean throws in with the first demon who strokes his ego...and other things. Sam without Dean lied to another woman about his past. Sam with Dean but sneaking around behind his back like he wasn't there, keeps using the Book of the Dead, gets innocent or relatively innocent people killed. Dean did take the Mark of Cain but I mean he actually handled it better, despite the supernatural influences pulling on him. Honestly Sam is JUST as co-dependent as Dean. It takes at least TWO to be co-dependent and Sam is definitely co-dependent. He pretended to be the normal one, because that was part of his co-dependency, let Dean carry the burden of being the one with the problem outwardly while he got to hide. Neither of them got a good ending but IMO it's better to live, where there is life there is hope. I don't care what type of changes Jack made, there isn't hope in heaven, even the new SPN heaven, heaven just is, IMO. Quote To me, there is just too much of the wild and untamed and unpredictable in him for him to find a true and lasting happiness in a reality that promises none of those things to him, not in the true sense of those words. This. That's why I just don't think it fits anymore. Edited December 16, 2020 by tessathereaper 1 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6502883
ILoveReading December 17, 2020 Share December 17, 2020 No one is ever going to convince me it wasn't a rule in the writers room that Sam always had to be more. Both on the positive side (stronger, faster, smarter, etc) and on the negative (had to had have more bad things, be seen as the one who had it worse, etc). I mean Dean goes to hell for 40 years, so Sam had to go for 100. So I do believe they went into the finale with the mindset that Sam will suffer much worse because Dean got to go to Heaven while Sam had to carry on without him. But as usual Jensen made it about Dean, and Dean was pretty much what everyone talked about after the finale. I don't think the writers intended that. My big issue is they they took this attitude into the finale. It's not Dean's death I had the big issue with. Even as far back as s 1 part of me felt Deans' story would end tragically. The fight with the vampires was Red Meat all over again. Sam took out 4 or 5 of them, saved Dean twice and did it all with a concussion and Dean struggled to take out 1 and was killed. I didn't get the impression anything more than a week or two had passed since ep 19. Dabb isn't subtle. If he wanted us to know a lot of time passed, he would have made it obvious. With the epic mess of the Chuck storyline and the shows refusal to even give Sam one line of dialogue to acknowledge Dean, does he have a legacy or not. Jensen specifically talked about this. He was worried about Dean's legacy. I've been doing a season 2 rewatch and I find myself at times, asking did this really happen? Am I really supposed to believe that Chuck started writing the story when Dean showed up at Sam's and he stopped when Sam talked Dean out of killing him in 20.17? Then the finale doesn't make sense because the brothers were never really connected or had the bond because Chuck wrote that. Chuck said Cas always rebelled but 18 tells us it was Deans' influence. But if Chuck wrote that than that means Cas rebelled because of Chuck's writing. Covid restrictions aren't' really an excuse because they had months to make it work. If they couldn't' they had months to rework the finale. If they wanted a tragic ending for Dean, they could have had Sam call the ambulance and had Dean give 'if I don't make it speech' but after the commericals we find out Dean did but he ended up paralyzed. They could have then had the montage of Dean becoming a Sonny/Bobby like character and Sam hunting with Eileen. There are ways around this if the actress wasn't available. IMO, the finale season would have been better if they actually did what they said. Focused on the characters rather than the the cosmic stuff. Go small. Imagine if they wrapped up the Chuck stuff in ep 10 rather than 19 and used the back half to explore who the characters were/what they wanted without the obligations. There is nothing wrong with being a hunter and I don;t get this notion that Dean had to stop hunting to be happy. He loved it before all the cosmic stuff happened. I think Dean would have been able to let go of Sam if Sam was still in the bunker but stopped actively hunting to take a more Bobby like role. I go back and forth on whether I want a fix it season. One one hand I really want Jensen to be in charge of Dean's fate, but on the other given the mess of ep 18 that puts any reboot in between a rock and hard place. Because if you do a reset, it erases Cas's confession or if there is something like this is Deans' coma dream and Dean doesn't return Cas's feelings then it all the drama and controversy would restart. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6504536
MAK December 17, 2020 Share December 17, 2020 32 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: IMO, the finale season would have been better if they actually did what they said. Focused on the characters rather than the the cosmic stuff. Go small. Imagine if they wrapped up the Chuck stuff in ep 10 rather than 19 and used the back half to explore who the characters were/what they wanted without the obligations. There is nothing wrong with being a hunter and I don;t get this notion that Dean had to stop hunting to be happy. He loved it before all the cosmic stuff happened. The whole of s15 seemed like the writers/producers didn't care about character or story. They should have wrapped up Chuck so much earlier, nothing was stopping them plot-wise. Dean would have gone on and lived or died, as long as he knew Sam was safe and happy, with or without Dean, in Heaven or on earth. Whenever Dean was alone, (Stanford, "pick a hemisphere", after Gadreel) he continued hunting, the family business. He found value in that. He knew Sam was okay, maybe not happy, but alive and okay, each time. The only time Dean kind of lost it was when Sam jumped into the cage. Because Sam was not okay, Sam was going to be tortured for eternity, Dean couldn't go on knowing that. When Dean dies/goes away, Sam has zero motivation and focus without Dean. All his choices when left alone, (6 mos in Mystery Spot, Ruby, Ameilia, Book of the Dead) not only were bad, but didn't even make him (Sam) happy. 44 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: Then the finale doesn't make sense because the brothers were never really connected or had the bond because Chuck wrote that. The bond started and developed as they grew up. If Chuck started to interfere from the Pilot, wouldn't affect the bond. Also, Chuck himself said he couldn't make them do certain things, that they went off script a lot. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6504587
ILoveReading December 17, 2020 Share December 17, 2020 (edited) 28 minutes ago, MAK said: The bond started and developed as they grew up I disagree. Because from the flashbacks we got Sam and Dean weren't really all that close. Sam left at 18 and never looked back and that included leaving Dean. We know that Dean saw protecting Sam as his job. He was brainwashed since he was 4 that putting Sam first was his only purpose in life. Plus, if Chuck's influence started at The Pilot that means that Dean never actually sold his soul for Sam or any of the other things that happened. That was all Chuck, supposedly. They romanticize the brothers bond, but it falls apart if you (general you) really analyze it. It's all surface. I mean whenever they lost their filters did they ever have anything nice to say about each other? The show is pretending that Sam was happy to see Dean when he showed up at Stanford (he wasn't). Sam chose Jessica. He only went on the road with Dean to get revenge for Jessica's death. Then is the Osiris episode we learn that Sam does hold some resentment towards Dean and it seems like he feels Dean dragged him back in the life. Not that he chose it or Dean. Whether Dean realized it or not he actually flourished without Sam. At Sonny's he was excelling in school and he had friends and was a champion wrestler. With Sam he was just Sam's inferior brother. Dean did fine when Sam was at college. He even managed to find a bit of happiness with Lisa and Ben. He held a job, he had friends, and he was a good father and boyfriend that Lisa and Ben genuinely loved him. Isn't that how the show justified not telling Dean about Sam. That he was happy? Sam, on the other hand falls apart without Dean. He never fit in a college and couldn't be honest with himself or anyone else in his life. He fell in with a demon, he fell apart and ran away. But when he was with Dean, especially in the later years, Sam seemed annoyed with everything Dean said and did. I don't understand why Jared chose to play it that way. In my opinion Sam often came across as resenting Dean. This to me is why the finale feels forced. It doesn't actually address the complicated relationship they actually had. Like everything Dabb did, he wasted the entire season and wrote a piece of fanfic as the ending. So I feel then that the brotherly bond can be summed up. Sam needs Dean. He doesn't want him. (As evidenced by how miserable Sam seemed even though he had the normal life he wanted). Dean wants Sam. He doesn't need him. (As evidenced by Dean finding some peace in knowing his family was in heaven with him and being happy driving around even if he missed Sam). Edited December 17, 2020 by ILoveReading 7 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6504624
gonzosgirrl December 17, 2020 Share December 17, 2020 1 hour ago, ILoveReading said: Covid restrictions aren't' really an excuse because they had months to make it work. If they couldn't' they had months to rework the finale. If they wanted a tragic ending for Dean, they could have had Sam call the ambulance and had Dean give 'if I don't make it speech' but after the commericals we find out Dean did but he ended up paralyzed. They could have then had the montage of Dean becoming a Sonny/Bobby like character and Sam hunting with Eileen. There are ways around this if the actress wasn't available. I like the idea very much, but even an ending like this would've been ruined by Dabbernatural, because if their 'son' is freaking God and he would leave Dean paralyzed from a simple hunt, well he's an even bigger douche than I already think he is. Just having Gack say he's going to be 'hand's off' isn't good enough. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6504629
gonzosgirrl December 17, 2020 Share December 17, 2020 (edited) 58 minutes ago, MAK said: The only time Dean kind of lost it was when Sam jumped into the cage. Because Sam was not okay, Sam was going to be tortured for eternity, Dean couldn't go on knowing that. Dean absolutely could and did go on knowing that. He admitted to drinking too much (at first), and reading everything he could find to try and get Sam out, but he was also coping quite well at a new job, having fun with his neighbours and Lisa and Ben. Everything we saw indicated he was gradually getting on with life, until the Djinn started messing with him and Robo-Sam showed up again. Quote Also, Chuck himself said he couldn't make them do certain things, that they went off script a lot. This right here is the epitome of how terrible a writer/storyteller Badd is. We're supposed to believe in this world he created, but whenever something doesn't fit, he waves it off with a line of dialogue that just tells us that's the way it is (until the next time it isn't). Edited December 17, 2020 by gonzosgirrl 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6504643
MAK December 17, 2020 Share December 17, 2020 13 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: So I feel then that the brotherly bond can be summed up. Sam needs Dean. He doesn't want him. (As evidenced by how miserable Sam seemed even though he had the normal life he wanted). Dean wants Sam. He doesn't need him. (As evidenced by Dean finding some peace in knowing his family was in heaven with him and being happy driving around even if he missed Sam). ITA. 14 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: Because from the flashbacks we got Sam and Dean weren't really all that close. About this, Sam says in one of the early seasons that he always was watching Dean, trying to be like him. So there was a little of hero worship there, at least til the flashback in where that teacher tells Sam he can choose his future, doesn't have to join the family business. After that, his attitude changed to one of a "normal" teenager, wanting more and different than what his family was providing. Why couldn't he choose his life? Why did Dean always listen to Dad? Being a child, with a child's maturity, he couldn't understand Dean's motivations, who never really got to be a child. Going to Stanford was just more "running away." Kids run away from a loving family, for a lot of immature reasons. (Not lumping in abusive situations) IMO, yes, growing up Dean was abnormally focused on the health and welfare of his kid brother, and kind of tried to make sure that their weird life affected Sam as little as possible. Sam went to after school activities, he went to prom, etc. Sam grew up thinking they were poor and weird. He never felt loss (like Dean) only deprivation. He started to understand loss after Jessica. He didn't "grow up" until much later, possibly after he released Lucifer. 16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: Dean absolutely could and did go on knowing that. He admitted to drinking too much (at first), and reading everything he could find to try and get Sam out, but he was also coping quite well at a new job, having fun with his neighbours and Lisa and Ben. Everything we saw indicated he was gradually getting on with life, until the Djinn started messing with him and Robo-Sam showed up again. Not saying Dean wouldn't have eventually gone on, he wasn't suicidal, but he did say he wasn't happy that whole year. He even asked Bobby why he didn't put him out of his misery when Bobby found out Sam was alive. If Sam was just dead or in the Empty, no pain involved?, Dean would have eventually flourished, but probably not in suburbia, because he wasn't being himself, he had to hide everything about himself. Sam was okay pretending, but Dean wasn't. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6504669
gonzosgirrl December 17, 2020 Share December 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, MAK said: Not saying Dean wouldn't have eventually gone on, he wasn't suicidal, but he did say he wasn't happy that whole year. He even asked Bobby why he didn't put him out of his misery when Bobby found out Sam was alive. If Sam was just dead or in the Empty, no pain involved?, Dean would have eventually flourished, but probably not in suburbia, because he wasn't being himself, he had to hide everything about himself. Sam was okay pretending, but Dean wasn't. He did say this after finding out he was lied to for a year - he was angry (and rightfully so). But again, everything we saw up to that point showed him doing pretty well, adjusting. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6504679
Pondlass1 December 17, 2020 Share December 17, 2020 He didn’t love Lisa. He couldn’t settle with Lisa. It was a sham. He fixated on saving Sam. Sam always came first. Sam would always come first. That’s the tragedy. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6504721
MAK December 17, 2020 Share December 17, 2020 8 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said: He didn’t love Lisa. He couldn’t settle with Lisa. It was a sham. He fixated on saving Sam. Sam always came first. Sam would always come first. That’s the tragedy. Exactly! Lisa knew about the supernatural and hunting, but everyone else Dean interacted with didn't. No one knew him. Dean was playing a part, he wasn't even driving the Imapala. Sure he could "fake it til he made it" but then that wouldn't have been Dean. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6504734
Aeryn13 December 17, 2020 Share December 17, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said: He didn’t love Lisa. He couldn’t settle with Lisa. It was a sham. He fixated on saving Sam. Sam always came first. Sam would always come first. That’s the tragedy. Just because he was understandably unhappy at the thought of Sam in a place of eternal suffering doesn't mean he could make nothing work. Under no circumstances ever. Where Sam was and how he was off at the time was a huge factor in the equation. I was not happy with the Series Finale and Dean's non-mentioned legacy at all but I don’t subscribe to the idea that the character was ever that much of a pathetic loser that instead of a brain, heart or mind he basically only had a note saying "Sam". Maybe Badd thought that. And what an honor it would be to revolve around planet Sam. But he and his ending can suck it. Edited December 17, 2020 by Aeryn13 7 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6504736
gonzosgirrl December 17, 2020 Share December 17, 2020 37 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said: He didn’t love Lisa. He couldn’t settle with Lisa. It was a sham. He fixated on saving Sam. Sam always came first. Sam would always come first. That’s the tragedy. Sam came first because Sam came back, but until then and before he was tricked into 'hunting' by the Djinn, he was doing all right. 6 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6504776
tessathereaper December 17, 2020 Share December 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said: He didn’t love Lisa. He couldn’t settle with Lisa. It was a sham. He fixated on saving Sam. Sam always came first. Sam would always come first. That’s the tragedy. I disagree. He did continue to try and figure out if there was a way to save Sam from the pit but he didn't do anything bad, he didn't go overboard, he was looking and he couldn't find anything, at least nothing that wouldn't make it worse we can assume. So he wasn't really IMO, obsessed or fixated, which to me would mean he wasn't able to do much else and would have made those bad choices. But he had a pretty good job, he did make friends, even if they were more surface level because he couldn't share his previous life with them, he enjoyed times he spent with Lisa and Ben in a genuine way. I don't think his grief over Sam and being upset about being LIED to for a year therefore means he didn't love Lisa, didn't enjoy his time with Lisa and Ben and didn't do his best to move on. He was living a life and it was not a bad life, it was even a happy one at times, though with the cloud of Sam in the pit hanging over it. He did love Lisa, maybe not love of your life type love, but he clearly loved her and Ben. A lot of times the happiest relationships are NOT the "oh my god so romantic, love of your life" type relationships but the ones where there is kindness, understanding and a willingness to work at it and still love, because that whole burning passion thing doesn't usually last forever anyway, it doesn't mean love isn't there. But yes, he wasn't being entirely himself because he had to hide his past from everyone else except Lisa and maybe it wouldn't have lasted with her because it was such an extreme change and he was giving up aspects of himself, but again that doesn't mean he wasn't moving on as much as he could and generally making his life work, and work pretty well and wouldn't have been able to find a place of more balance with more time. It had only been a year after all. In any case, it doesn't change the fact that he by and large did better without Sam than Sam did without Dean and he likely still would have done better than Sam did. 8 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6504869
TheGreenKnight December 18, 2020 Share December 18, 2020 Reading this conversation makes me think Sam's ending in the finale (basically doing what Dean wanted: not bringing him back and settling down with a family) is sort of like what Dean's "ending" was when Sam went into the Cage. Sam had asked him to settle down with a family, get out of the life. Neither of them were really satisfied with that kind of life--imo, because they were apart--which is why I found the finale more tragic for Sam than Dean, tbh. I never thought Dean was satisfied with Lisa and Ben. Those moments with them when he thought Sam was gone felt sort of like an episode of Desperate Housewives, where everything looks fine on the surface in suburbia, but really everyone is just miserable and resigned. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6505970
Airmid December 18, 2020 Share December 18, 2020 22 hours ago, Pondlass1 said: He didn’t love Lisa. He couldn’t settle with Lisa. It was a sham. He fixated on saving Sam. Sam always came first. Sam would always come first. That’s the tragedy. It wasn't a sham. He might not have been 'in love' with Lisa but he had definitely had deep feelings for both Lisa and Ben. While we had a small idea that he never stopped looking for a way to get Sam out of hell, we did see happy moments between the three, his concern over their well-being, his misguided goodbye to her when he was a vampire thanks to Soul-less Sam. Because he wasn't told he there was a cure, he felt like he needed to go do that and resisted the hunger of a newly turned vamp around both of them. That doesn't sound like someone living a sham life they can just walk away from. It sounds more like someone trying to make peace with losing a life built up through a lot of hardship and grief and comes with a lot of emotions. The writers may have had Sam dither around in his 'will he or won't he' arc with Amelia, but those two never really came off as anywhere near as deeply connected as Dean was to Lisa and Ben. Later on, he did the typically Dean thing, blaming himself for a lot and did something terrible - wiping their memories. Again, that whole sequence says more that he has something close with them instead of the opposite. Sam, on the other hand, just sort of ran off when Dean got sucked into Purgatory, once again found a woman that knew nothing about him to settle in and when things got hard [Dean came back pissed, Kevin was still missing, her husband showed up after being MIA (which feels like it was written in to make him/them look better)], it never felt like he had that kind of commitment to Amelia. It felt pretty empty when he chose Dean, hell at that point, given how pissy he was, I kind of wanted him to go back to Amelia. It's like they gave him Dean's story arc from the front half of S6 but instead of a deep relationship on some level with someone who actually knows who he really is [like Dean had with Lisa], it feels superficial all the way through. It's no surprise that Sam was so miserable. He never wanted his partners to actually know anything about him and that trait only got worse as he got older. It was one thing in college - he's young and can't prove it. It's quiet another almost a decade later when he's well over a century old through torture to be pulling the same kind of thing. And given that he was dating Eileen again thanks to Mrs. Butters, its not surprising that he didn't go back to her after Dean died, because she knew him. I doubt blurry wife knew a damn thing about him. So he got to live, learned absolutely nothing, investigated nada even as to where Dean landed, and wasted an existence outside of having a kid just to get back to his brother. 10 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6506246
tessathereaper December 18, 2020 Share December 18, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said: Reading this conversation makes me think Sam's ending in the finale (basically doing what Dean wanted: not bringing him back and settling down with a family) is sort of like what Dean's "ending" was when Sam went into the Cage. Sam had asked him to settle down with a family, get out of the life. Neither of them were really satisfied with that kind of life--imo, because they were apart--which is why I found the finale more tragic for Sam than Dean, tbh. I never thought Dean was satisfied with Lisa and Ben. Those moments with them when he thought Sam was gone felt sort of like an episode of Desperate Housewives, where everything looks fine on the surface in suburbia, but really everyone is just miserable and resigned. Lisa said it was the best year of her life and I don't think Dean "faking it" the whole way through would have made her feel that way. They looked like genuine moments to me, just every day life. Again not saying it was all happy for Dean or that it wouldn't have eventually ended because he had gone to something of an extreme living a "normal life" and would have needed to balance that out in time, but who knows maybe he could have figured out a way to do that and stay with Lisa, you never know. Which is not to say I wanted him to, actually, I didn't want him retired to suburbia, I was perfectly happy when he gave that up but it's not because I thought he didn't genuinely care about Lisa and Ben. And I don't even think it was all that bad that he wiped their memories because it wasn't just a case of wiping their memories - as we'd seen with the Titanic situation, angels can change history entirely and THAT is what Dean had Castiel do. Dean made it so no one except himself(and Sam) would even know they had a relationship because it was changed, according to history so to speak there was no relationship, it was wiped from existence. Which would also mean there couldn't be a situation like this again, where a demon could get them and use them against Dean, because history was literally changed, the demons wouldn't remember that relationship either. That's why Dean did it, to protect them. Sure not great maybe because they didn't get a choice but it was to protect them. Honestly that right there says how much Dean cared, first that they could be used against him like that in the first place, but also that he went to those lengths to protect them Edited December 18, 2020 by tessathereaper 9 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6506315
gonzosgirrl December 18, 2020 Share December 18, 2020 23 minutes ago, tessathereaper said: And I don't even think it was all that bad that he wiped their memories because it wasn't just a case of wiping their memories - as we'd seen with the Titanic situation, angels can change history entirely and THAT is what Dean had Castiel do. Dean made it so no one except himself(and Sam) would even know they had a relationship because it was changed, according to history so to speak there was no relationship, it was wiped from existence. Which would also mean there couldn't be a situation like this again, where a demon could get them and use them against Dean, because history was literally changed, the demons wouldn't remember that relationship either. That's why Dean did it, to protect them. Sure not great maybe because they didn't get a choice but it was to protect them. Honestly that right there says how much Dean cared, first that they could be used against him like that in the first place, but also that he went to those lengths to protect them I have never seen this theory before, and I like it! Head-canon - likely actual canon - accepted. :) This is one of the few real mistakes I thought Dean made, and I am happy that I can stroke it off my (very short) list now. O/T but the other mistake I thought he made, even though I understand it, is not telling Sam about Ezekiel/Gadreel immediately after Sam woke up. Even though I 100% think he did the right thing by saving Sam, I do sympathize with Sam's hurt/anger about being lied to for so long. And I also 100% believe that if, given the same information Dean had at the time (that 'Zeke' was a good angel who wanted to help because it was mutually beneficial for him), Sam would have chosen to let Zeke stay rather than make a conscious decision to eject him and die. He chose to live in the church, and he chose to live in his coma/dream/whateverthatwas, so I believe he would have chosen to live with this, too. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6506359
ahrtee December 18, 2020 Share December 18, 2020 28 minutes ago, tessathereaper said: Lisa said it was the best year of her life and I don't think Dean "faking it" the whole way through would have made her feel that way. They looked like genuine moments to me, just every day life. Again not saying it was all happy for Dean or that it wouldn't have eventually ended because he had gone to something of an extreme living a "normal life" and would have needed to balance that out in time, but who knows maybe he could have figured out a way to do that and stay with Lisa, you never know. Which is not to say I wanted him to, actually, I didn't want him retired to suburbia, I was perfectly happy when he gave that up but it's not because I thought he didn't genuinely care about Lisa and Ben. And I don't even think it was all that bad that he wiped their memories because it wasn't just a case of wiping their memories - as we'd seen with the Titanic situation, angels can change history entirely and THAT is what Dean had Castiel do. Dean made it so no one except himself(and Sam) would even know they had a relationship because it was changed, according to history so to speak there was no relationship, it was wiped from existence. Which would also mean there couldn't be a situation like this again, where a demon could get them and use them against Dean, because history was literally changed, the demons wouldn't remember that relationship either. That's why Dean did it, to protect them. Sure not great maybe because they didn't get a choice but it was to protect them. Honestly that right there says how much Dean cared, first that they could be used against him like that in the first place, but also that he went to those lengths to protect them They would have had to have a reset for the rest of the world, because otherwise, how would they explain the dead doctor in Lisa's living room? (Not to mention a woman coming in to a hospital with a nearly-fatal stab wound and walking out with a minor concussion?) The other reason for wiping their memory was Lisa's comment in Mannequin 3: LISA You know, I...I can't. Ask for something. I know what I want. But I can't have it -- Not how you live. My phone rings, I think -- tiny chance it's you, big chance it's Sam calling to tell me you're dead. DEAN Lis... LISA No, don't. Don't apologize or anything. It's just... It's just I get to this place where I'm okay, and then you show up at our door. You keep doing that, every time I think I'm never gonna see you again. I'm trying to get over you. What are you trying to do? What do you want from us, Dean? Lisa was the one who first asked for the chance to combine hunting and a home, and she turned out to be the one who couldn't handle it. And as long as she and Ben (especially) still have their memories of Dean, anyone else would (I think) pale in comparison. The only way to make her happy is to wipe out all memory of him from everyone. 1 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6506377
Airmid December 18, 2020 Share December 18, 2020 5 hours ago, PinkChicken said: I think its less that he didn't love Lisa, and more that their relationship is the view of "love" as a series of choices. You make me happy, I make you happy, we make each other better people, so every day I will choose to stay, I will choose to put in the effort, and we both choose to make this work. In my books that's love, but also by definition there may come a day when you weigh the choices and no longer chose to stay, and that's just how it is. Its not very romantic I suppose, and doesn't get filed in the "one true love" category, and I can see how some people wouldn't be happy with that if that's how their partner felt Pragma. The Greeks have multiple words for a lot of different kinds of love and Pragma is one of them. It's not the starry eyed romantic kind, but when it's successful it does tend to be long lasting and fulfilling. I honestly think Dean had this kind of love with Lisa - he already knew her, knew it wasn't one sided, they had common goals, and wanted a loving relationship. English however gets pragmatism from this word which puts unfortunate/rather negative connotations on it. This and other kinds of love often get overlooked, especially in entertainment, for romantic or familial which can get conflated. It also depends on the person what kind of relationship they get into - but Dean does seem to be more the type for this kind while Sam has idealistic notions of romance without much depth [and sadly, never got to really change that]. Pragma, while being practical, can also be a deep relationship if it's worked at by all involved, it's just not going to have all the bells and whistles of something like Eros would have. 5 hours ago, ahrtee said: Lisa was the one who first asked for the chance to combine hunting and a home, and she turned out to be the one who couldn't handle it. And as long as she and Ben (especially) still have their memories of Dean, anyone else would (I think) pale in comparison. The only way to make her happy is to wipe out all memory of him from everyone. My major problem with this is that no one actually asked Lisa. I completely see Dean's point of view and understand his driving desire to keep them safe. However, he wiped out a huge chunk of this woman's life and also Ben's. I mean, I've met real living people who were so totally in love but lost their spouse fairly early on yet remained devoted to them that they never found anyone else. Never had an interest to. Doesn't mean their lives sucked - actually the opposite from the ones I've met. They were happy. I also have a close friend from childhood who ended up marrying the man she always loved after they were separated by life and tragedy for well over a decade, thinking she'd never see him again. Things happen and in the end, it seems like what Lisa would have wanted for her and her child is just assumed, which is where my problem comes from with the whole thing. I'm pretty sure if she hadn't been dying in a coma and he was trying to do that she would have told him to F-off. Sure, block the demon memories, especially for Ben, not come around again, but she doesn't strike me as a character that would have been okay with what happened. And, I want to say it wiped the relationship from everyone's minds but I have a hard to believing that Castiel has that much power. Angels can do things, like unsink the Titantic [and no one seems to mention the really terrible part was that Castiel was generating 50k souls here to give to Crowley] but that's still based in reality. You just turn the ship so it doesn't hit the iceberg - the end. Actual reality warping powers to that degree where it touched every person that every knew about Dean/Lisa seems more like an archangel thing. Sure, Zachariah stuck them in that mind bender in S4, and Dean in S5, but given the powers angels seem to have and that Zach was high ranking working directly with Michael, it probably was more archangel and heaven's power than just his own. And there's a little bit of cleverness here - Zach seemed to take credit but we also found out he was a sycophant whose failure would cost him his existence. It makes him a front-man for Dean to place his anger at while leaving Michael out of it for a good bit [the cleverness fails by never having Michael take advantage of this]. And helps the show avoid saying just how much power each type of angel actually has - which is something they fail with miserably later on. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6506858
ahrtee December 18, 2020 Share December 18, 2020 28 minutes ago, Airmid said: And helps the show avoid saying just how much power each type of angel actually has - which is something they fail with miserably later on. Each angel has as much--or as little--power as the writer of each particular episode wants. No explanations. 1 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6506917
shoetingstar December 18, 2020 Share December 18, 2020 1 hour ago, ahrtee said: Each angel has as much--or as little--power as the writer of each particular episode wants. No explanations. Demons as well. In many cases the Demons would be more powerful, which makes no sense. It was never consistent. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6507020
Myrelle December 19, 2020 Share December 19, 2020 (edited) 13 hours ago, tessathereaper said: Lisa said it was the best year of her life and I don't think Dean "faking it" the whole way through would have made her feel that way. They looked like genuine moments to me, just every day life. Again not saying it was all happy for Dean or that it wouldn't have eventually ended because he had gone to something of an extreme living a "normal life" and would have needed to balance that out in time, but who knows maybe he could have figured out a way to do that and stay with Lisa, you never know. Which is not to say I wanted him to, actually, I didn't want him retired to suburbia, I was perfectly happy when he gave that up but it's not because I thought he didn't genuinely care about Lisa and Ben. And I don't even think it was all that bad that he wiped their memories because it wasn't just a case of wiping their memories - as we'd seen with the Titanic situation, angels can change history entirely and THAT is what Dean had Castiel do. Dean made it so no one except himself(and Sam) would even know they had a relationship because it was changed, according to history so to speak there was no relationship, it was wiped from existence. Which would also mean there couldn't be a situation like this again, where a demon could get them and use them against Dean, because history was literally changed, the demons wouldn't remember that relationship either. That's why Dean did it, to protect them. Sure not great maybe because they didn't get a choice but it was to protect them. Honestly that right there says how much Dean cared, first that they could be used against him like that in the first place, but also that he went to those lengths to protect them They lived and were safe. That was what he wished for them because he DID come to love them both, in every way, IMO, too. I've always felt that this was exactly what he did too, TESSATHEREAPER. And that scene in the hospital when Dean did that broke my heart into a million pieces because it was the most Real Goodbye I've ever seen. I think Jensen should have gotten an Emmy nomination for that scene alone in S6. Edited December 19, 2020 by Myrelle 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6507660
AwesomO4000 December 19, 2020 Share December 19, 2020 On 12/17/2020 at 9:15 AM, ILoveReading said: So I feel then that the brotherly bond can be summed up. Sam needs Dean. He doesn't want him. (As evidenced by how miserable Sam seemed even though he had the normal life he wanted). Dean wants Sam. He doesn't need him. (As evidenced by Dean finding some peace in knowing his family was in heaven with him and being happy driving around even if he missed Sam). I agree that Sam needs Dean more than wants him... at least sometimes. For me, it all depends on what version of Sam we get at any particular time. Kripke's season 2, 3, and 5 version of Sam wanted to be with Dean... more than vica versa actually, in my opinion (especially season 5). I think season 4's Sam wanted to want Dean... but there was guilt and other stuff making that difficult. Gamble's Sam - not the Soulless one, the real Sam - also wanted to be with Dean most of the time, again more than the other way around, in my opinion. Carver's Sam didn't seem to want Dean so much early on, though why I have no idea. Much of Sam's characterization then made little sense. If Sam didn't want Dean all that much, then why did he stick around? And why was he jealous of Benny? I guess Amelia was just supposedly so awesome, Sam was giving up something, and Benny was just so awesome as to inspire jealousy or ... something. It never seemed to make sense to me. In season 10 and 11, Sam did want to be with Dean. He even confessed as much to Charlie. Dabb's Sam was mostly just there and took on whatever personality the writer du jour wanted him to have. That was generally prissy Sam who sometimes seemed annoyed by Dean (and most things in general). Sam fluctuated between skilled hunter and complete incompetence, depending on what the plot demanded. The last good characterization of Sam, in my opinion, was season 11. As for Dean wanting Sam, for me, that too is somewhat conditional. I think Dean sometimes wants the idea of Sam, though, more than actual Sam. He wants Sam to have a good time with and hunt with, but if Sam wants to discuss difficult feelings, generally Dean just wants him to go away until Dean is ready to have his company again. Or when Sam gets angry, Dean just wants him to get over it and accept Dean was mostly right anyway. So yes, Dean wants Sam, but I think he wants a less complicated Sam than who Sam really is. And sometimes that ends up getting turned around on Sam as if Sam is the only problem, when usually they both are the problem. 21 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said: O/T but the other mistake I thought he made, even though I understand it, is not telling Sam about Ezekiel/Gadreel immediately after Sam woke up. Even though I 100% think he did the right thing by saving Sam, I do sympathize with Sam's hurt/anger about being lied to for so long. And I also 100% believe that if, given the same information Dean had at the time (that 'Zeke' was a good angel who wanted to help because it was mutually beneficial for him), Sam would have chosen to let Zeke stay rather than make a conscious decision to eject him and die. He chose to live in the church, and he chose to live in his coma/dream/whateverthatwas, so I believe he would have chosen to live with this, too. You might be surprised, but I agree with all of this, and I was highly disappointed when all of this aspect of it was pretty much dropped like a hot potato. That the whole thing got turned into an "I was ready to die!!!!" angst fest (which, um no, that wasn't the issue - at least not for me) and somehow Sam was the one who had to be apologetic and say he lied, pretty much ruined the season for me. I get it Carver, you wanted Dean saving Sam to be the right thing to do (which it was... it was the lying and taking away Sam's choice in the matter that was the issue), and have a pretty, shiny redemption for Gadreel, but did you have to turn Sam into the whiny bad guy and victim blame him to do it? (In my opinion, no, no he didn't.) 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6507896
Airmid December 19, 2020 Share December 19, 2020 1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said: I agree that Sam needs Dean more than wants him... at least sometimes. For me, it all depends on what version of Sam we get at any particular time. Kripke's season 2, 3, and 5 version of Sam wanted to be with Dean... more than vica versa actually, in my opinion (especially season 5). I think season 4's Sam wanted to want Dean... but there was guilt and other stuff making that difficult. IA and for S4 - Sam had all kinds of addiction problems that were going to cloud his thinking here, especially given the substance. I think if the audience was made privy to what had happened to Sam from the jump or much sooner [sans blood issues], there wouldn't have been a problem with them empathizing with Sam along with the horror and heartbreak that should have happened as he began to succumb to his his addiction at the end. They did try to show Sam wanted to be with Dean in the season finale - which makes sense - and did a good job of it up until he got that voicemail. It makes him look really shallow - he only wants Dean if Dean wants him and after a threatening voicemail [and really, what did Sam expect after almost strangling his brother to death] - just decides "Whelp, time to go bleed that nurse begging for her life in my trunk then" as if doing anything else wasn't an option. I would have much rather preferred it if they'd had him still refuse and then he gets tricked - like thinking Lilith was about to slaughter Dean - to get him over the edge. [Also, having him drink Ruby instead of the nurse would have done wonders for me]. Then having him go kill Lilith with Dean getting there too late. At least his actions would have made sense to a lot more people even if not right or condonable. Instead he looks weak-willed and rather irredeemable and the writing for S5 doesn't go far enough to help him out of his hole - the writers never really seeming to realize just how far they'd buried one of their leads. 2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: and have a pretty, shiny redemption for Gadreel, Man, I in no way think Gadreel was redeemed and I despise the show for trying to make it seem that way. Gadreel was a self-serving and rather gullible angel who was seeking to become the hero to reclaim his tarnished reputation, not because he wanted to do what was right. Which is fine for a character to be - honestly, that's not a bad thing, not everyone is selfless. However, the way he's painted in the series is as an actual hero and the writing even forces Sam to call him his friend. Gag. Sure, Sam may be willing to not light him on fire if he proves useful, but in no way should Sam just suddenly be all okay with an angel who treated him like a hairy crack house to squat in while threatening his family and friends before going on a murder spree. In fact, none of them should put trust in this angel who has shown himself to be so easily led astray. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6508009
Pondlass1 December 19, 2020 Share December 19, 2020 I haven’t watched the Leviathan season for a while but I remember thinking to myself when I first watched that season that Leviathan Dean and Sam were way more chummy and enjoying each other’s company than real Dean and Sam. I mean, when did they ever go out for a beer and fun game of pool without researching some monster or having to scam to make some cash. They were codependent but never friends. Maybe siblings can’t be friends? I’m an only child so I wouldn’t know. But once they moved into that cold sterile bunker Sam seemed even more irritated by everything Dean said or did. Dean could find joy in the little things but Sam never seemed happy ever. (I’m generalizing over later seasons here). It’s almost sad for Sam. Maybe he’s even more tragic than Dean? In that early episode when Dean realized John was possessed and yelled “that’s not dad”, Sam stood beside him without argument. I think latter day Sam would need convincing and not accept his brother’s word. This complex brotherly bond could serve as a basis for someone’s thesis. Anyone doing doctorate in psychology out there? 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6508164
Terese December 20, 2020 Share December 20, 2020 On 12/13/2020 at 2:42 PM, Airmid said: Honestly, I really disliked the acting in this scene also. It seemed way over blown and didn't help the scene at all since it already seemed to come out of left field and wallop us over the head. The other major problem was that wording, while claimed to be vague, really isn't in context. Given that this whole speech is about how wonderful Dean is and about how he taught Cas to love everything, it seems pretty implied at this point that the one thing he can't have is Dean. The giant sticking point is that they felt like they couldn't have Dean really respond with anything useful. They can't let Dean tell Cas he loves him too, because that will just rev up the Destiel more. They also can't have him talk about Cas being his best friend [which I would argue hasn't really been a thing in recent episodes] because then that would be seen as lampooning Destiel. Instead of building up a scene basing it on things both characters want [such as Cas having wanted in the past some kind of relationship with his brothers, Dean and his want for a family that stands behind/loves him and wants him around], they decide to walk a line, step over it and then promptly erase the line and pretend the whole thing never happened in the first place I mean, seriously show? MC couldn't even record a couple of lines for Cas like they're seeing each other in heaven or something? Viewers would have understood the Covid limitations - all you would have had to do was imply they were near each other. If you aren't comfortable dealing with a scene you wrote/filmed to this extent, maybe it shouldn't be done in the first place. I don't think Dabb realizes what an utterly depressing scenario he's created for these characters. Sam always felt like he was in Dean's shadow and often tried to prove himself only to end up living the life he wanted while being miserable. Dean took care of his whole family and sacrificed his own wants/needs over and over, essentially was fridged for motivation for Sam, and ends up sitting in heaven waiting for Sam instead of ever getting to be his own person. Cas, who loves him eternally, couldn't be bothered to bop on by to tell Dean 'Hey, I'm alive, you don't have to grieve anymore', and Jack is just off dicking around without much consideration outside of digging Cas out of The Empty - which probably only happened in that throwaway line because fans would have rioted at that point given everything else. Sam & Dean suffered horrendously and fought to save the universe multiple times, but they didn't even really have anything to do with all of creation getting free will and never enjoyed being free. What a terrible message. What amazes me is that the CW let Dabb run with this train as it crashed into the station. SPN is a huge money-maker to them but they basically signed off on ever getting further projects [well, there's creative ways to do it] with the characters fans would actually come to see. At the very least, I would have thought that those up the food chain would have put their foot down and said 'no, you can't kill off the main characters, figure out something else.' Perfect analysis of everything wrong with that scene and the overall message of the season. Vilify Chuck, take away free will that Sam and Dean always had, have someone win it back for them, turn that someone into a hands-off God, which was precisely what Chuck was before they retconned him, render Sam and Dean pointless, then kill them. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6508696
Terese December 20, 2020 Share December 20, 2020 On 12/12/2020 at 2:37 PM, Pondlass1 said: I wouldn’t have dared agreed with this while the show was in production. But, as much as I respect Misha, he cannot act for turnips. He is most fortunate that Castiel was a big hit with audiences especially in terms of two ‘pretty boys’ in scenes together which spawned the ever annoying Destiel... the bane of Jensen’s existence (and mine). Jensen is so talented and worked so hard to make Dean Winchester the complex character he is... trying to wedge the bi angle into a character so obviously straight — well, it’s frustrating as hell. And Misha encouraged it IMO And don’t get me started on Rob Benedict as God.... nice man, very mediocre actor. I wonder what Kripke would’ve given us had he somehow been given the green light to come back and write the final episode. I remember seeing lots of tweets to this effect. I think Robert Benedict is fine, though much better as an endearing prophet and a benign God. I detest Misha Collins, at this point. I liked earlier Castiel; but, started to literally cringe whenever he showed up these past few seasons. By "cringe" I don't mean rhe overused modern meaning kind of cringe. I mean shrink away from as if from pain, irritation and embarrassment. Compounded with his perverting the interpretation of a poorly written and acted scene, he capitalized on it with his disgusting and rabid fans. I can't believe for a minute that Kripke enjoyed the maligning and destructionof his representatve, Chuck, only to be replaced by Dabb's representative, Jack. Furthermore, he never would have reduced Sam and Dean to shallow caricatures of their former selves, while kicking them to the corner to let someone else save the day. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6508715
AwesomO4000 December 20, 2020 Share December 20, 2020 17 hours ago, Airmid said: Man, I in no way think Gadreel was redeemed and I despise the show for trying to make it seem that way. Gadreel was a self-serving and rather gullible angel who was seeking to become the hero to reclaim his tarnished reputation, not because he wanted to do what was right. Which is fine for a character to be - honestly, that's not a bad thing, not everyone is selfless. However, the way he's painted in the series is as an actual hero and the writing even forces Sam to call him his friend. Gag. Sure, Sam may be willing to not light him on fire if he proves useful, but in no way should Sam just suddenly be all okay with an angel who treated him like a hairy crack house to squat in while threatening his family and friends before going on a murder spree. In fact, none of them should put trust in this angel who has shown himself to be so easily led astray. I agree on the non-redemption. I should have sarcasmed more that "pretty, shiny redemption" (in my head it was very snarky - heh.) And in addition to the "friend" thing (gag, indeed), don't forget "misunderstood." Actually as you point out here, I think I understood Gadreel just fine up until the writers tried to retcon things to, as you said, make him look like an actual hero. For me, the last straw was that conversation in "King of the Damned" having Sam say somehow that Gadreel (paraphrase) "hadn't felt evil, just misunderstood," but that he [Sam} "was wrong, obviously," because "He [Gadreel] killed Kevin" Wait, what? First of all, Sam hadn't "felt" Gadreel at all... that was the entire point of Sam's dismay at losing time and thinking he was going crazy or going darkside again. And second of all: way to not only have Gadreel's intentions retconned, but then blame part of Kevin's death on Sam, because he should have known better. That not only did Sam supposedly previously feel that the entity inside him "wasn't at rest" and had "unfinished business" - which first time we heard of that, since supposedly Sam didn't even know Gadreel was there, and Gadreel was doing stuff to his memory and suppressing Sam in his own mind - but that Sam was wrong for not knowing that Gadreel had other intentions. And Castiel - who previously makes a point out of having Sam admit that he "didn't feel threatened" or that Gadreel didn't feel like a "danger" or "hostile" - doesn't say a word after Sam blames himself for not knowing better. Good thing I didn't have any heavy objects in my hand at the time, or the television would have been in danger. So apparently Gadreel was misunderstood and lead astray by Metatron and Sam was wrong and should have known better, thereby maybe saving Kevin... got it writers,,, and I'll refrain from elaborating on what I think about that. I think you get the picture. And your last point is spot on. It's ridiculous that the writers put part of this blame on Sam and then expect him to be all hunky dory with the angel who "treated him like a hairy crack house to squat in" (good description there). 16 hours ago, Pondlass1 said: I haven’t watched the Leviathan season for a while but I remember thinking to myself when I first watched that season that Leviathan Dean and Sam were way more chummy and enjoying each other’s company than real Dean and Sam. I mean, when did they ever go out for a beer and fun game of pool without researching some monster or having to scam to make some cash. Early in the season, before things got hairy, I thought the show did a good job of showing them enjoying each other's company, even though Sam had issues. The time passing montage in "Meet the New Boss" showed them working on the car together and hanging out together. Admittedly, they didn't go out for beers and such in season 7, especially later, but that was mainly because Dean's obsession with Dick Roman didn't leave him with as much free time. Sam supported Dean's need to do that, though - an unfortunately deleted scene from "Time After Time..." shows Sam's support in that regard. If you don't have the DVDs, I suggest looking for it online - and despite that, they enjoyed working on cases. That's the thing I missed most later on - especially season 8 and 9. In episodes like "How to Win Friends..." ,"Plucky Pennywhistle's..", "Out With the Old," and "Party on Garth," Sam and Dean actually seemed to be enjoying hunting. There was fun discussion in Biggersons and diners and over autopsies, and jokes about glampers and turducken sandwiches, the houses they squatted in, rock, paper, scissors, obsessed fans (Becky), cursed porn magazines, tainted junk food, and evil clowns and giant slinkies. They even joked with each other about Sam's hallucinations. Despite Bobby's death, Dean's depression and obsession, the Leviathans, and Sam's Lucifer hallucinations, there was way more fun in season 7 than in season 8 when arguably there was much less reason in that season for the grimness. Sam and Dean never seemed to enjoy hunting at all in season 8 or season 9. And whereas for me Sam and Dean seemed to actually enjoy being with each other in season 7, making the best of a bad situation and finding small comforts and fun where they could, they didn't even seem like they should be in the same car or room together in season 8 and 9. It was a glaring contrast in my opinion. For me, season 7 was one where I actually found Sam and Dean to be in a good place with one another and enjoying each others' company. The conflict was mainly external - the leviathans - rather then between the two of them. Even their one brief, angsty conflict over Amy was resolved within one episode of it happening and they both came to a better understanding of each other's position when it was concluded. Contrast that with season 8 and 9's seemingly repetitive and never-ending conflict with each other, and season 7, to me, was much more enjoyable. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6509064
ahrtee December 20, 2020 Share December 20, 2020 5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: Early in the season, before things got hairy, I thought the show did a good job of showing them enjoying each other's company, even though Sam had issues. The time passing montage in "Meet the New Boss" showed them working on the car together and hanging out together. Admittedly, they didn't go out for beers and such in season 7, especially later, but that was mainly because Dean's obsession with Dick Roman didn't leave him with as much free time. Sam supported Dean's need to do that, though - an unfortunately deleted scene from "Time After Time..." shows Sam's support in that regard. If you don't have the DVDs, I suggest looking for it online - and despite that, they enjoyed working on cases. That's the thing I missed most later on - especially season 8 and 9. In episodes like "How to Win Friends..." ,"Plucky Pennywhistle's..", "Out With the Old," and "Party on Garth," Sam and Dean actually seemed to be enjoying hunting. There was fun discussion in Biggersons and diners and over autopsies, and jokes about glampers and turducken sandwiches, the houses they squatted in, rock, paper, scissors, obsessed fans (Becky), cursed porn magazines, tainted junk food, and evil clowns and giant slinkies. They even joked with each other about Sam's hallucinations. Despite Bobby's death, Dean's depression and obsession, the Leviathans, and Sam's Lucifer hallucinations, there was way more fun in season 7 than in season 8 when arguably there was much less reason in that season for the grimness. Sam and Dean never seemed to enjoy hunting at all in season 8 or season 9. And whereas for me Sam and Dean seemed to actually enjoy being with each other in season 7, making the best of a bad situation and finding small comforts and fun where they could, they didn't even seem like they should be in the same car or room together in season 8 and 9. It was a glaring contrast in my opinion. For me, season 7 was one where I actually found Sam and Dean to be in a good place with one another and enjoying each others' company. The conflict was mainly external - the leviathans - rather then between the two of them. Even their one brief, angsty conflict over Amy was resolved within one episode of it happening and they both came to a better understanding of each other's position when it was concluded. Contrast that with season 8 and 9's seemingly repetitive and never-ending conflict with each other, and season 7, to me, was much more enjoyable. IMO, their relationship was pretty much the same. The difference is that they weren't throwing barbs at each other and so weren't angry or hurt. Sam *still* said the same (rather insulting) things about Dean--that he was a slob, a pig, a horndog, childish, stupid, and a drunk. Sam declared that Dean (apparently frequently) left him alone at Plucky's to pick up girls (which can be believable or not, depending on whether we think Dean was a saint, a horndog, or brainwashed into watching Sam at all times). Dean was mocked for his interest in porn (in Out with the Old), his tolerance for alcohol (in Party Down Garth), his eating habits (in How to Win Friends). The difference is that the comments were said not in anger (or in concern) but as a joke, and Dean didn't seem to take offense. But the fact is that that's the same way Sam has seemed to view Dean over the entire show. The fact that he wasn't flinging them as accusations doesn't negate the fact that that's his opinion of Dean. So the only way they can "work together well" is if Dean doesn't take offense (or get hurt) at Sam's barbs? To stop the comparison between Dean's teasing of Sam: well, IMO making fun of someone for eating healthy foods, being overly organized or having too long hair isn't exactly in the same class; and those were obviously affectionate teasing, not angry, nasty or even worried. The fact is that they always worked well on cases together, as long as the cases weren't personal (or hit any sensitive spots), or if they weren't already angry at each other for other reasons. About Amy--I have a question. If Dean hadn't taken the responsibility of killing Amy himself but had sent another hunter to follow and kill her (like Martin following Benny) would that have been better or worse? Would Sam have accused Dean of not trusting him? Of going behind his back? I'm honestly curious. Was the sin in not trusting Sam's judgment or just in lying about it? 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6509275
DeeDee79 December 20, 2020 Share December 20, 2020 49 minutes ago, ahrtee said: If Dean hadn't taken the responsibility of killing Amy himself but had sent another hunter to follow and kill her (like Martin following Benny) would that have been better or worse? He would have gotten twice ( or three times ) the backlash that Sam (barely) did. 49 minutes ago, ahrtee said: Would Sam have accused Dean of not trusting him? Definitely yes. 50 minutes ago, ahrtee said: Of going behind his back? Absolutely yes. 50 minutes ago, ahrtee said: Was the sin in not trusting Sam's judgment or just in lying about it? The show would have made sure that Dean was flogged for both of these reasons. 52 minutes ago, ahrtee said: To stop the comparison between Dean's teasing of Sam: well, IMO making fun of someone for eating healthy foods, being overly organized or having too long hair isn't exactly in the same class; and those were obviously affectionate teasing, not angry, nasty or even worried. Agree so much with this. Calling someone a nerd for reading too much and calling someone a pig for enjoying their food is quite different. One is teasing, the other is mean spirited IMO. 6 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6509340
Castiels Cat December 20, 2020 Share December 20, 2020 On 12/17/2020 at 7:59 AM, ILoveReading said: No one is ever going to convince me it wasn't a rule in the writers room that Sam always had to be more. Both on the positive side (stronger, faster, smarter, etc) and on the negative (had to had have more bad things, be seen as the one who had it worse, etc). I mean Dean goes to hell for 40 years, so Sam had to go for 100. So I do believe they went into the finale with the mindset that Sam will suffer much worse because Dean got to go to Heaven while Sam had to carry on without him. But as usual Jensen made it about Dean, and Dean was pretty much what everyone talked about after the finale. I don't think the writers intended that. My big issue is they they took this attitude into the finale. It's not Dean's death I had the big issue with. Even as far back as s 1 part of me felt Deans' story would end tragically. The fight with the vampires was Red Meat all over again. Sam took out 4 or 5 of them, saved Dean twice and did it all with a concussion and Dean struggled to take out 1 and was killed. I didn't get the impression anything more than a week or two had passed since ep 19. Dabb isn't subtle. If he wanted us to know a lot of time passed, he would have made it obvious. With the epic mess of the Chuck storyline and the shows refusal to even give Sam one line of dialogue to acknowledge Dean, does he have a legacy or not. Jensen specifically talked about this. He was worried about Dean's legacy. I've been doing a season 2 rewatch and I find myself at times, asking did this really happen? Am I really supposed to believe that Chuck started writing the story when Dean showed up at Sam's and he stopped when Sam talked Dean out of killing him in 20.17? Then the finale doesn't make sense because the brothers were never really connected or had the bond because Chuck wrote that. Chuck said Cas always rebelled but 18 tells us it was Deans' influence. But if Chuck wrote that than that means Cas rebelled because of Chuck's writing. Covid restrictions aren't' really an excuse because they had months to make it work. If they couldn't' they had months to rework the finale. If they wanted a tragic ending for Dean, they could have had Sam call the ambulance and had Dean give 'if I don't make it speech' but after the commericals we find out Dean did but he ended up paralyzed. They could have then had the montage of Dean becoming a Sonny/Bobby like character and Sam hunting with Eileen. There are ways around this if the actress wasn't available. IMO, the finale season would have been better if they actually did what they said. Focused on the characters rather than the the cosmic stuff. Go small. Imagine if they wrapped up the Chuck stuff in ep 10 rather than 19 and used the back half to explore who the characters were/what they wanted without the obligations. There is nothing wrong with being a hunter and I don;t get this notion that Dean had to stop hunting to be happy. He loved it before all the cosmic stuff happened. I think Dean would have been able to let go of Sam if Sam was still in the bunker but stopped actively hunting to take a more Bobby like role. I go back and forth on whether I want a fix it season. One one hand I really want Jensen to be in charge of Dean's fate, but on the other given the mess of ep 18 that puts any reboot in between a rock and hard place. Because if you do a reset, it erases Cas's confession or if there is something like this is Deans' coma dream and Dean doesn't return Cas's feelings then it all the drama and controversy would restart. Chuck did not write everything as in he types it and it happens. He told Amara his methodology in Unity. He arranges things so everything falls into place and certain people can be influenced more like Angel's, etc. I imagine that he actually had them cursed with bad luck in Hunters Journey which is why the goddess of fortune was able to restore them. If it was Chuck's writing that would not have worked. He wrote about them. He wrote their gospels as Chuck the prophet. He did not literally write them. He did manipulate their lives for his amusement. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6509732
Castiels Cat December 20, 2020 Share December 20, 2020 (edited) On 12/19/2020 at 7:55 AM, AwesomO4000 said: I agree that Sam needs Dean more than wants him... at least sometimes. For me, it all depends on what version of Sam we get at any particular time. Kripke's season 2, 3, and 5 version of Sam wanted to be with Dean... more than vica versa actually, in my opinion (especially season 5). I think season 4's Sam wanted to want Dean... but there was guilt and other stuff making that difficult. Gamble's Sam - not the Soulless one, the real Sam - also wanted to be with Dean most of the time, again more than the other way around, in my opinion. Carver's Sam didn't seem to want Dean so much early on, though why I have no idea. Much of Sam's characterization then made little sense. If Sam didn't want Dean all that much, then why did he stick around? And why was he jealous of Benny? I guess Amelia was just supposedly so awesome, Sam was giving up something, and Benny was just so awesome as to inspire jealousy or ... something. It never seemed to make sense to me. In season 10 and 11, Sam did want to be with Dean. He even confessed as much to Charlie. Dabb's Sam was mostly just there and took on whatever personality the writer du jour wanted him to have. That was generally prissy Sam who sometimes seemed annoyed by Dean (and most things in general). Sam fluctuated between skilled hunter and complete incompetence, depending on what the plot demanded. The last good characterization of Sam, in my opinion, was season 11. As for Dean wanting Sam, for me, that too is somewhat conditional. I think Dean sometimes wants the idea of Sam, though, more than actual Sam. He wants Sam to have a good time with and hunt with, but if Sam wants to discuss difficult feelings, generally Dean just wants him to go away until Dean is ready to have his company again. Or when Sam gets angry, Dean just wants him to get over it and accept Dean was mostly right anyway. So yes, Dean wants Sam, but I think he wants a less complicated Sam than who Sam really is. And sometimes that ends up getting turned around on Sam as if Sam is the only problem, when usually they both are the problem. You might be surprised, but I agree with all of this, and I was highly disappointed when all of this aspect of it was pretty much dropped like a hot potato. That the whole thing got turned into an "I was ready to die!!!!" angst fest (which, um no, that wasn't the issue - at least not for me) and somehow Sam was the one who had to be apologetic and say he lied, pretty much ruined the season for me. I get it Carver, you wanted Dean saving Sam to be the right thing to do (which it was... it was the lying and taking away Sam's choice in the matter that was the issue), and have a pretty, shiny redemption for Gadreel, but did you have to turn Sam into the whiny bad guy and victim blame him to do it? (In my opinion, no, no he didn't.) He was jealous because he wasn't there for Dean and Benny was. Sam let Dean down and didn't look for him and Benny was the one that saved him. It reminded Sam of how he didn't save Dean from hell either which influences his speech in Sacrifice in which he asks Dean whom he will turn to the next time Sam let's him down... another angel or vampire. Well... it turned out to be a demon...lol... Dean and his pansexual bromances. 6 hours ago, ahrtee said: IMO, their relationship was pretty much the same. The difference is that they weren't throwing barbs at each other and so weren't angry or hurt. Sam *still* said the same (rather insulting) things about Dean--that he was a slob, a pig, a horndog, childish, stupid, and a drunk. Sam declared that Dean (apparently frequently) left him alone at Plucky's to pick up girls (which can be believable or not, depending on whether we think Dean was a saint, a horndog, or brainwashed into watching Sam at all times). Dean was mocked for his interest in porn (in Out with the Old), his tolerance for alcohol (in Party Down Garth), his eating habits (in How to Win Friends). The difference is that the comments were said not in anger (or in concern) but as a joke, and Dean didn't seem to take offense. But the fact is that that's the same way Sam has seemed to view Dean over the entire show. The fact that he wasn't flinging them as accusations doesn't negate the fact that that's his opinion of Dean. So the only way they can "work together well" is if Dean doesn't take offense (or get hurt) at Sam's barbs? To stop the comparison between Dean's teasing of Sam: well, IMO making fun of someone for eating healthy foods, being overly organized or having too long hair isn't exactly in the same class; and those were obviously affectionate teasing, not angry, nasty or even worried. The fact is that they always worked well on cases together, as long as the cases weren't personal (or hit any sensitive spots), or if they weren't already angry at each other for other reasons. About Amy--I have a question. If Dean hadn't taken the responsibility of killing Amy himself but had sent another hunter to follow and kill her (like Martin following Benny) would that have been better or worse? Would Sam have accused Dean of not trusting him? Of going behind his back? I'm honestly curious. Was the sin in not trusting Sam's judgment or just in lying about it? Dean did nothing wrong in regards to Amy... Sam was wrong. She was killing humans. Sam was also wrong in regards to Benny... Benny wasn't killing. Sam's actions got Martin killed, terrorized Elizabeth and destroyed Benny's stable environment making it impossible for him to function. I was heartbroken that he sacrificed himself to save Sam. I would much rather Dean have had Benny on his side. He was truly the better brother. Edited December 20, 2020 by Castiels Cat 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6509744
tessathereaper December 21, 2020 Share December 21, 2020 On 12/18/2020 at 10:27 AM, ahrtee said: They would have had to have a reset for the rest of the world, because otherwise, how would they explain the dead doctor in Lisa's living room? (Not to mention a woman coming in to a hospital with a nearly-fatal stab wound and walking out with a minor concussion?) The other reason for wiping their memory was Lisa's comment in Mannequin 3: LISA You know, I...I can't. Ask for something. I know what I want. But I can't have it -- Not how you live. My phone rings, I think -- tiny chance it's you, big chance it's Sam calling to tell me you're dead. DEAN Lis... LISA No, don't. Don't apologize or anything. It's just... It's just I get to this place where I'm okay, and then you show up at our door. You keep doing that, every time I think I'm never gonna see you again. I'm trying to get over you. What are you trying to do? What do you want from us, Dean? Lisa was the one who first asked for the chance to combine hunting and a home, and she turned out to be the one who couldn't handle it. And as long as she and Ben (especially) still have their memories of Dean, anyone else would (I think) pale in comparison. The only way to make her happy is to wipe out all memory of him from everyone. Yes, that's exactly it. They reset the rest of the world because that is the only way it would work really. Cas came in and healed Lisa and then Dean said there is something else you can do for me(the change history episode was just a few episodes earlier) and it was a car accident instead of a stabbing, they have no memory at all of Dean or anything else that happened, no dead doctor in their house, there was no relationship for other people to remember, etc, etc. Plus again, even if their memories would be wiped it wouldn't protect them from anyone else who would use them against Dean, so history itself had to be changed so that couldn't happen again. I think it's pretty obvious myself. It's the only thing that actually works and Dean knew, from episode 6.17, only 4 episodes before, angels could do that. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6511217
Katy M December 21, 2020 Share December 21, 2020 15 hours ago, Castiels Cat said: Sam's actions got Martin killed, terrorized Elizabeth and destroyed Benny's stable environment making it impossible for him to function. Nope. Martin's actions got Martin killed, terrorized Elizabeth and destroyed Benny's stable environment. In fact, had Dean not removed Sam from the scene, all that would never have happened. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6511276
Smad December 21, 2020 Share December 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, Katy M said: In fact, had Dean not removed Sam from the scene, all that would never have happened. In fact, had Sam not involved Martin at all, none of it would have happened. 2 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6511287
Katy M December 21, 2020 Share December 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Smad said: In fact, had Sam not involved Martin at all, none of it would have happened. That's actually the only reason I added in the Dean comment. Because I knew someone would point that out. That's true. But, had Sam not been lured away from the scene, it still wouldn't have happened. Bottom line, everything that happened was Martin's fault. The only thing that Sam did wrong was cuff Dean up once he was unconscious. It made more than enough sense to keep an eye on a vampire and the evidence 100% pointed to him. If we didn't know everything that was going on, would we really think that vampires setting up other vampires was a thing? Probably not. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6511296
tessathereaper December 21, 2020 Share December 21, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Katy M said: That's actually the only reason I added in the Dean comment. Because I knew someone would point that out. That's true. But, had Sam not been lured away from the scene, it still wouldn't have happened. Bottom line, everything that happened was Martin's fault. The only thing that Sam did wrong was cuff Dean up once he was unconscious. It made more than enough sense to keep an eye on a vampire and the evidence 100% pointed to him. If we didn't know everything that was going on, would we really think that vampires setting up other vampires was a thing? Probably not. Yes it would have. If anything the writers removed Sam from the scene because they couldn't have covered Sam's ass if he'd been involved, and he would have been plus it gave them a way to make DEAN the bad guy somehow even when Sam was the one doing everything wrong. Sam should have never gotten Martin involved, he knew he was unstable, he ALLOWED Martin to chain Dean up unconscious and leave him there, even knowing dangerous vampires were in the area. So in reality the person who screwed up was SAM, if Sam hadn't just accepted Martin knocking his brother unconscious and then let Dean get chained up NONE of that would have happened. Martin was mentally unstable and had a history of it, and Sam knew it. Sam was presumably fully in control of his faculties, Sam was the one with the greater responsibility here. Dean didn't say don't keep an eye on Benny, he said there was more going on and Sam point blank did NOT believe him and allowed him to be knocked unconscious and then chained up. The fact is Dean knew Benny way way better than Sam ever knew Amy. He knew her for a day when they were teenagers and he caught her killing people but bought her poorly thought out sobstory with so many holes in it. Sam was OUT for blood, Sam's presence would not have saved Benny. Also Dean didn't really make him do it, it just showed Sam for an idiot. First off why would Amelia text him? Amelia had no idea he was a hunter or involved in the supernatural, even if something had happened what would have made her call him when they hadn't talked in quite a while? Second even if he did get that message and believed it, he still left another hunter in the middle of a hunt, he abandoned him and that was wow that was a really lousy thing to do. I don't think Dean expected Sam to just abandon Martin without a word, which is exactly what Sam did. He expected him to call off the hunt for the time being. And that was after Sam refused to answer Dean's calls. Edited December 21, 2020 by tessathereaper 9 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6511312
tessathereaper December 21, 2020 Share December 21, 2020 On 12/19/2020 at 8:27 PM, Terese said: I think Robert Benedict is fine, though much better as an endearing prophet and a benign God. I detest Misha Collins, at this point. I liked earlier Castiel; but, started to literally cringe whenever he showed up these past few seasons. By "cringe" I don't mean rhe overused modern meaning kind of cringe. I mean shrink away from as if from pain, irritation and embarrassment. Compounded with his perverting the interpretation of a poorly written and acted scene, he capitalized on it with his disgusting and rabid fans. I can't believe for a minute that Kripke enjoyed the maligning and destructionof his representatve, Chuck, only to be replaced by Dabb's representative, Jack. Furthermore, he never would have reduced Sam and Dean to shallow caricatures of their former selves, while kicking them to the corner to let someone else save the day. Part of me really hopes, after he actually saw it, Kripke apologized to Jensen for telling him that ending was good. LOL 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6511348
Katy M December 21, 2020 Share December 21, 2020 22 minutes ago, tessathereaper said: Yes it would have. If anything the writers removed Sam from the scene because they couldn't have covered Sam's ass if he'd been involved, and he would have been plus it gave them a way to make DEAN the bad guy somehow even when Sam was the one doing everything wrong. I just can't see Sam taking an innocent human being hostage. He'd have found a better way to kill Benny. 23 minutes ago, tessathereaper said: am should have never gotten Martin involved, he knew he was unstable, he ALLOWED Martin to chain Dean up unconscious and leave him there, even knowing dangerous vampires were in the area. I already said that Sam was wrong for chaining dean up. But, despite being in a mental hospital, Martin somehow became unstable between Sam intrrupted and this episode. Because he was perfectly fine in SAm Interrupted. He was the one who figured out what the creature was, stopped Sam from attacking the doctor and took care of Wendy after the Wraith attacked her. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6511354
PAForrest December 21, 2020 Share December 21, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, tessathereaper said: Part of me really hopes, after he actually saw it, Kripke apologized to Jensen for telling him that ending was good. LOL More than one person owes an apology to Jensen. But I honestly don't believe Kripe thought it was good or not good. I don't think he really cared. Hell, I'm not convinced he even watched it. I still believe his advice to Jensen was to hang in there, live with it, and get ready to move on because the last part was the most important and it was past time. And I also now sincerely believe this finale was mostly rewritten by the suits at the CW, given the changes they probably wanted made. At Misha's Vegas m&g in March - before they had any idea they'd be shut down for months, thinking then it was only going to be a couple of weeks - he apparently told fans that the finale was already undergoing rewrites, likely at the behest of Pedowitz. At the time those had nothing to do with COVID changes. He also told them he had four more days to shoot - whether those four were split between 19 and 20, or were all in one or the other will never be known until such a time that Misha spills. But one way or the other, we were supposed to see Castiel again. And then of course there's Alex who did come back to film a scene that was cut - and no way in hell would Dabb have cut out his own celestial insert. The only thing I'm certain of with this finale is that Dabb intended to kill off Dean, and that was the source of Jensen's dissatisfaction with the finale. But Dabb was not a Wincester, and he did not care that much about the brothers' relationship overall. He was about his OCs and characters other than the Winchesters. This finale does not feel like Dabb at all. In a way it plays out much like Swan Song did - an episode Kripke was not exactly thrilled with either, so much so that he used a pseudonym. The changes to his original plans were requested by Gamble and likely Dawn Ostroff who supported Gamble. If the series finale was the result of the network meddling, I'd be very curious what Dabb's original intention was. I probably wouldn't like it any better, because Dean would still be dead. But I wouldn't be at all surprised anymore if it wasn't exactly what we got. Edited December 21, 2020 by PAForrest 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6511386
gonzosgirrl December 21, 2020 Share December 21, 2020 (edited) IMO, Sam letting Martin knock Dean out, and then leaving him chained up when he supposedly knew there were dangerous vamps in the area (including Benny, who Sam did not trust), was near the top of the list of shitty things Sam did to Dean. And then they had Dean trick Sam which somehow not only excused him of Sam responsibility, but made Dean the 'bad guy'. Sam deigning to allow that he may possibly have been wrong and giving Dean permission to be upset about Benny dying (to save the ungrateful brat's life) a few weeks/months later only made Sam a bigger a-hole for me. ETA: Not to mention it's a 12 hour drive from Carencro, LA to Kermit, TX. Sam, the ultimate researcher/internet genius couldn't have called her, or her husband, or her father, or anyone along the way?I know he eventually calls back the number the text came from and finds out it was Dean, but seriously, none of it makes sense. ETA2: Sam is the one who put a hunter on Benny, regardless of who it was.Cancel Edited December 21, 2020 by gonzosgirrl 7 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6511395
Pondlass1 December 21, 2020 Share December 21, 2020 I wish we’d got more episodes along the lines of Baby. The Night Moves montage is them sharing brotherly affection and intimacy. A good place in their relationship during a streak of bleak episodes and seasons. 6 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6511464
Katy M December 21, 2020 Share December 21, 2020 59 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: ETA2: Sam is the one who put a hunter on Benny, regardless of who it was.Cancel Actually, that may have ended up saving Benny's life. Not that that was Sam's "fault" either. But, because Martin was on the scene, he was the first hunter to know about the vamp kill and he called Sam and Dean. Otherwise, it very well may have been a more competent hunter that got there first. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6511491
ahrtee December 21, 2020 Share December 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Katy M said: Actually, that may have ended up saving Benny's life. Not that that was Sam's "fault" either. But, because Martin was on the scene, he was the first hunter to know about the vamp kill and he called Sam and Dean. Otherwise, it very well may have been a more competent hunter that got there first. Any other hunter would have had to start from scratch, not knowing Benny was involved in any way. A competent hunter might have found the other vamp (using due diligence) and not just assumed it was Benny to start with. And if the killings had stopped when Benny killed the vamp, other hunters might have assumed that another hunter finished the job. 10 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/215/#findComment-6511500
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.