“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Aeryn13]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

ITA with you, but the concerted effort that this entire writing team is putting into making Dean the "bad guy" in the Jackiepoo storyline(except when they have him making him a birthday cake, of course 🙄), is like nothing I've seen before-and this on the heels of Dean being so MEEN! to poor woobie cAsstiel(who has never done anything wrong, dontchaknow 🙄🙄) leaves nothing but more apologizing and groveling in his future, from what I can see.

Well, maybe standing on the sidelines and cheering on everyone else in the big fight again, too-after he's done groveling, that is.

I'm literally wishing that they will just kill the character off simply to release him for good from the writing of this story, but then who would they have to cry so well over all the true heroes of the story. 

I really hope that that's not all that these bozos will give him, but I also feel like I have to be prepared for it and thinking on it makes me want to barf.

I just want it to be over with now and, sadly, that feels like the only light at the end of the tunnel for me now.

Four more episodes...😟

 

I think it has been this bad (and even worse) before. I remember well how much hate Dean got for Amy Pond, the Gadreel thing, his first responses to Jack, the thing with Kaia and so on and so forth. 

It is just that now they literally just have a handful of episodes and choose to dredge up that melodramatic dreck. Was there really no other filler material? Which, lets be realistic, this is.

The cheerleading from the sidelines, yes, that is my worry, too. But I've pretty much 99,9 % decided the show ends at the Season 11 Finale anyway.

And hey, maybe they actually do a pick-up with a limited run streaming in 5 or so years and erase the hell out of Dabbernatural.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

I looked it up and guess I was wrong. Could have sworn it wasn't Trump.

Newscaster: In what was supposed to be a speech on farming subsidies, the President instead spent more than two hours disclosing his entire tax history, deep ties to Russia and North Korea, and a "demon deal" he made with someone named Crowley.
 

So freaking cringe. Just like Kripke's tweet.

Well not exactly like Kripke's tweet. He was wrong about Dean.

Edited October 24, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[Res]

I halfway expect that Kripke's conversation with Jensen over the finale went something like this. 

Kripke: "Hey, man, what did you really expect? Isn't that why you are quitting the show? Just play your part then come over to "The Boys". You'll love it here. Of course, we'll just call you a superhero villain right off the bat. But then at least we are honest with you upfront."

Jensen: "Can't wait!"

[tessathereaper]

4 hours ago, Res said:

I halfway expect that Kripke's conversation with Jensen over the finale went something like this. 

Kripke: "Hey, man, what did you really expect? Isn't that why you are quitting the show? Just play your part then come over to "The Boys". You'll love it here. Of course, we'll just call you a superhero villain right off the bat. But then at least we are honest with you upfront."

Jensen: "Can't wait!"

I swear I was just thinking the same thing earlier.  I would not be the slightest bit surprised if that isn't exactly how the conversation went.

[BabySpinach]

Thinking about the latest episode and how punchable Sam's delivery of the "just drive" line was. The way he shook his head and closed his eyes, as if the very concept of Dean's presence next to him was utterly unbearable. Way over-acted IMO, and made Sam look like a pissy, sanctimonious drama queen. Or a 60-year-old stereotypical British snob cursed to witness someone's use of the wrong fork during supper.

[Myrelle]

49 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Thinking about the latest episode and how punchable Sam's delivery of the "just drive" line was. The way he shook his head and closed his eyes, as if the very concept of Dean's presence next to him was utterly unbearable. Way over-acted IMO, and made Sam look like a pissy, sanctimonious drama queen. Or a 60-year-old stereotypical British snob cursed to witness someone's use of the wrong fork during supper.

I hated Sam in that last scene with the fire of ten thousand suns.

Someone in the episode thread said it perfectly-the character loves to sit on the fence until he can't any longer and then, everything is Dean's fault-and the writers are tone deaf and completely blind to the idea that they constantly convey this when they stubbornly continue to write it this way and even though no few in this fandom still aren't taken in by it and never will be.

I guess they figured this was their last chance to try and make it work, though.

It went over like a lead balloon in my circle and even in some others that I wouldn't begin to describe as mine.

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by Myrelle
Revision

[Lemuria]

On 10/24/2020 at 1:19 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

Well not exactly like Kripke's tweet. He was wrong about Dean.

May I ask what tweet this was?  Did he tweet something after that one about who'd they vote for and why?

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

May I ask what tweet this was?  Did he tweet something after that one about who'd they vote for and why?

Yes. First he tweeted about who the boys would vote for (since he created them). Then he added the stupid part about Dean, and after quite a lot of responses, added the last one. I say, Kripke maybe have birthed Dean, but Jensen raised him up to the man he is, and Kripke never dreamed of such a good man.

[Lemuria]

Thanks!  I think he just thought his original comment was funny only to find that after 3 years of Dabbernatural, it went over in some circles like the proverbial lead balloon.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Lemuria
Spelling counts

[Myrelle]

Badd's writing/showrunning speaks for itself since he officially took over as the showrunner with the resurrecting Mary and BMOL storylines and it's gone downhill since then with very little attention paid to the two original lead characters and main actors, excepting for when their contracts were due to expire. Then he catered to one and lied to the other thinking that that combination might work enough to keep the gravy train rolling along for most everyone and likely because it had worked in the past for the most part. But Badd's OTT jealousy and resentment of the character of Dean Winchester(and for some reason, even the actor who plays him) got the better of him and he couldn't resist trying to completely demean both character and actor through his writing and showrunning at basically every turn.

So now, everything is playing out the way that it is because of that same weird, inexplicable, and unending jealousy and resentment.

JMO, of course, but I've never seen the like although I've heard of things like this happening on other shows.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Myrelle
Spelling

[Castiels Cat]

On 10/7/2020 at 7:43 AM, AwesomO4000 said:

Brought over from the "Supernatural Media" thread:

No, no, no... "Citizen Fang" is Daniel Loflin. I despise that episode (Sorry, Castiel's Cat), and Ben Edlund doesn't usually write Sam and Dean acting like that towards each other. Now, I'm not saying that I haven't really disliked a Ben Edlund episode before, but it wasn't because I thought the story made either brother - or both to some extent in this case - look like complete and utter asshats like that episode did.

I found "Citizen Fang" to be an exercise in both futility*** and character assassination... not something Ben Edlund would do. Edlund usually lets Sam and Dean shine rather than making them look bad in order for other characters to shine instead.

*** Why bother to write this rich character history and relationship with Benny's relative, Elizabeth (?) only to have it come to absolutely nothing due to plot machinations - many of which made almost no sense? This was the episode that let me know for sure that I was going to pretty much hate season 8 and that there was little salvaging it. Then "Torn and Frayed" pounded the nails in the coffin. Ironically another episode in futility - "see the actual likeable angel? Well let's just torture him endlessly and then kill him off for no good reason."

Now that I think about it, all of the plots in season 8 were exercises in futility. Every last one. Benny, Amelia, Dean's brief foray into non-codependence, Sam's non-sensical return to wanting "normal" after not being heard of for at least 3 seasons, even the trials... all went nowhere and produced zero character growth. No wonder I hated season 8 so much.

And now after that bit of revelation - because it explains a lot. - I'll go back to pretending season 8 (and 9 for similar plus some different reasons) never happened.

Benny and Dean were fantastic together. Citizen Fang is their best episode together. Benny's story is poignantly tragic. He is the one character who was there for Dean no holds bar... the episode stands alone and draws upon every aspect of the ongoing storylines.

[FlickChick]

17 hours ago, Myrelle said:

But Badd's OTT jealousy and resentment of the character of Dean Winchester(and for some reason, even the actor who plays him) got the better of him and he couldn't resist trying to completely demean both character and actor through his writing and showrunning at basically every turn.

So now, everything is playing out the way that it is because of that same weird, inexplicable, and unending jealousy and resentment.

I agree 1000%. I will never understand what the fuck is wrong with this asshole. And it amazes me to no end that he actually got another project to run/ruin. Why would anyone hire the asshole that killed the "unkillable" show?

[Smad]

On 10/26/2020 at 12:49 AM, Myrelle said:

Someone in the episode thread said it perfectly-the character loves to sit on the fence until he can't any longer and then, everything is Dean's fault-and the writers are tone deaf and completely blind to the idea that they constantly convey this when they stubbornly continue to write it this way and even though no few in this fandom still aren't taken in by it and never will be.

Still seems to work fine once you get outside this forum. Reading the discussion on Reddit for example, enough people still buy this nonsense. And the Dean trashing commences.

[Aeryn13]

5 minutes ago, Smad said:

Still seems to work fine once you get outside this forum. Reading the discussion on Reddit for example, enough people still buy this nonsense. And the Dean trashing commences.

Yes, it is effective. Though even moreso because the Nougat is seen as this absolute cutesy Stu who must never, ever be harmed.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Yes, it is effective. Though even moreso because the Nougat is seen as this absolute cutesy Stu who must never, ever be harmed.

Because that's who they write it for. Not for the integrity of the show, but for the people who praise them on Twitter.

[catrox14]

55 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Yes, it is effective. Though even moreso because the Nougat is seen as this absolute cutesy Stu who must never, ever be harmed.

This is why Jack is such a terrible character, IMO. He can do cute things like his "Hello!"  which I think that's mostly due to Alex's acting and charm.  Which is why IMO he's become this weird darling to some. 

And now the problem is Jack's existence is giving the writers the excuse to turn Dean into a villain because it's always been that Dean is largely the only character who questioned Jack's morality, existence and actions.

Jack is still the son of Satan, so there is still a chance he has some innate evil. And unfortunately, if the show does ever take Jack to the dark side, it is setup to blame it on Dean, who's been made to be seen as the villainous uncaring , unforgiving John to Jack's triple woobified Sam.  Dean is not going to come out as a hero even though he started as one. 

Cas wasbrainwashed by Jack in s12.  Sam is honestly not doin much of anything except worrying about Jack.  The three main characters have been ruined by Jack's existence and I think it is intentionally done by Drabb. He wants his own original character (s) to be more important to his vision of "Supernatural". I said all the way backwhen the Wayward Sisters thing was around, that if Drabb couldn't get his spinoff he would reconnoiter the show to his vision.
And he clearly sees Dean as a jerk, given how he wrote him is his comic. He can't regress Sam all the way back to the poor out upon child Sam, and instead created Jack.  Badd is the worst.

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He can't regress Sam all the way back to the poor out upon child Sam, and instead created Jack.  Badd is the worst.

And yet, as recently as last week, he still tries. Maybe one day when enough time has passed and people no longer feel the need to kiss Badd's (and Singer's) ass, the reality of what he really did to this show will be acknowledged beyond the rants of message board fans.

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, Smad said:

Still seems to work fine once you get outside this forum. Reading the discussion on Reddit for example, enough people still buy this nonsense. And the Dean trashing commences.

Not enough to tarnish his legacy.

Not IMO,  anyway-especially if we get the quick turnaround towards him "understanding" the poor Nougatbaby "better", that is inevitable with 4 episodes left to go until the end. 

Even the Fangasm chicks questioned the writing of Dean in this one and the secrets and lies (again and some more) and they are some of the biggest cheerleaders of the writers that I've ever seen.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Myrelle
Revision

[tessathereaper]

42 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Because that's who they write it for. Not for the integrity of the show, but for the people who praise them on Twitter.

This is why they had 900,000 viewers this week.  The loud voices on twitter are almost the only ones left, because they are being catered to, Almost everyone else has left because the writing has gotten so bad..  

[Smad]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

And now the problem is Jack's existence is giving the writers the excuse to turn Dean into a villain because it's always been that Dean is largely the only character who questioned Jack's morality, existence and actions.

Since when is questioning someone's motives or character a bad thing? You are supposed to do that. Heck we all do it, otherwise there would be no such thing as love or hate. It's only common sense but Dabb and the show sycophants somehow think that common sense is bad or evil.

Sam and Cas don't much question anything anymore, haven't for a very long time which is why the big bad events are always their fault. Dean is always the one looking for another way or questioning the party line. The fact that the show (and some viewers) thinks Dean never did that (in fact they insist Sam always did) is just freaking insulting. That they have him blindly follow Billie after everything he has experienced, more insulting. That he has doubts about Jack, first Satan's spawn then a known killer and murderer of his mother, gee maybe we shouldn't judge killers or murderers at all so long as they look cute or constipated, whichever. Seriously?

[tessathereaper]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

This is why Jack is such a terrible character, IMO. He can do cute things like his "Hello!"  which I think that's mostly due to Alex's acting and charm.  Which is why IMO he's become this weird darling to some. 

And now the problem is Jack's existence is giving the writers the excuse to turn Dean into a villain because it's always been that Dean is largely the only character who questioned Jack's morality, existence and actions.

Jack is still the son of Satan, so there is still a chance he has some innate evil. And unfortunately, if the show does ever take Jack to the dark side, it is setup to blame it on Dean, who's been made to be seen as the villainous uncaring , unforgiving John to Jack's triple woobified Sam.  Dean is not going to come out as a hero even though he started as one. 

Cas was brainwashed by Jack in s12.  Sam is honestly not doin much of anything except worrying about Jack.  The three main characters have been ruined by Jack's existence and I think it is intentionally done by Drabb. He wants his own original character (s) to be more important to his vision of "Supernatural". I said all the way backwhen the Wayward Sisters thing was around, that if Drabb couldn't get his spinoff he would reconnoiter the show to his vision.
And he clearly sees Dean as a jerk, given how he wrote him is his comic. He can't regress Sam all the way back to the poor out upon child Sam, and instead created Jack.  Badd is the worst.

Homer Simpson: "....whenever Poochie's not onscreen, all the other characters should be asking 'Where's Poochie?"  It's all "Where's Jack, How's Jack, What's Jack doing?"  It's bizarre how well the gaslighting works for some - Dean most of the time is the only behaving in a remotely rational manner, IMO. 

Jack brainwashed his mother(she was basically forced to give birth to him even though it would kill her and then they doubled down on that when they had him "meet" her in a later episode), brainwashed Castiel, he's Lucifer's son, he's "accidently" killed more than one person when he was having a bad day.  If Jack had EARNED it by now that would be one thing, but he really hasn't.  Because he "accidently" killed Dean's mother at the end of last season(yeah she's Sam's too but he apparently doesn't care so...,)

So Jack hasn't come close to earning the sort of trust the show is saying he deserves and that the other characters are supposed to put in him and for which Dean is constantly pummelled and painted as villainous for NOT doing so.  

Seriously the only way any of this would work for me is if Jack HAS brainwashed Cas, Sam, Mary before she died, etc, etc, like it's part of his supernatural power, and we know THAT isn't going to happen.

Quote

Since when is questioning someone's motives or character a bad thing? You are supposed to do that. Heck we all do it, otherwise there would be no such thing as love or hate.  It's only common sense.....

Exactly.  It's really really bizarre.

Quote

Sam and Cas don't much question anything anymore, haven't for a very long time which is why the big bad events are always their fault. Dean is always the one looking for another way or questioning the party line. The fact that the show (and some viewers) thinks Dean never did that (in fact they insist Sam always did) is just freaking insulting. That they have him blindly follow Billie after everything he has experienced, more insulting. That he has doubts about Jack, first Satan's spawn then a known killer and murderer of his mother, gee maybe we shouldn't judge killers or murderers at all so long as they look cute or constipated, whichever. Seriously?

All this.

Edited October 27, 2020 by tessathereaper

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, tessathereaper said:

Seriously the only way any of this would work for me is if Jack HAS brainwashed Cas, Sam, Mary before she died, etc, etc, like it's part of his supernatural power, and we know THAT isn't going to happen.

I would love that, but I don't think it will work at this point.  Like if they had left out the ridiculous Chuck stuff and just had him wanting Jack dead without going into too much detail.  Sam, and Cas, and to a lesser degree Dean are all like, Chuck's bad because he wants to kill Jack.  Maybe had Jack brainwash them into thinking that the reason Chuck wants him dead is to keep him from taking over and the world destroying stuff was just something that Jack was making them think was happen (actually maybe they could still do that).  

I don't think they necessarily need to go back for 3 years worth of brainwashing.  Just this season would do.  Maybe he, Billie, and the Empty teamed up. But, the only problem with all this is all the stuff that happened pre Jack coming back.  I can't really figure out how to make all that (Chuck letting out all the ghosts, kidnapping Sam and Eileen to break them, the world destroying) Jack's doing.  I might actually allow for a major retcon on that score, just because whatever the ending actually is, will suck so much worse, IMO.  I would love to be proved wrong, but I don't see it happening?  How many more epis left?  4?  Before this season, or maybe last, I never thought the day would come when I would be wanting that number to be smaller, not bigger.

[Myrelle]

40 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I might actually allow for a major retcon on that score, just because whatever the ending actually is, will suck so much worse, IMO.  I would love to be proved wrong, but I don't see it happening?  How many more epis left?  4?  Before this season, or maybe last, I never thought the day would come when I would be wanting that number to be smaller, not bigger.

Taking my response to SPN Ending thread...

 

[Aeryn13]

There is no way, Jack, the saint of all Nougats would be revealed as anything less than the Gary Stu with a dopey smile they always portray him as. I still think he will literally "inherit the Earth". 

[AwesomO4000]

On 10/24/2020 at 6:11 AM, Aeryn13 said:

In the Dabb years Sam was only wrong about the BMOL amd that led to him being acknowledged as some great heroic leader. Since then he hasn't been portrayed as wrong about a thing.

That's not true, in my opinion. It wasn't just the BMoL (which was a biggie, in my opinion). There was the Sam thinks he can rehabilitate Nick storyline which lead to Sam humiliatingly getting killed by a human Nick... so obviously being wrong about Nick and having to say as such. There was the Sam insists they go through the cave to go save Mary, because there's supposedly no time to go around, thereby getting a civilian and himself killed plot point. More Sam having to say how wrong he was to get killed. And Sam as some "great heroic leader" ended up with everyone getting killed on his watch. I've already expressed my feelings on that in that I think Mary was an unreliable narrator. And notice how we've never revisited this Sam as leader thing again, and when Sam does have an idea and takes the lead on something - like Nick - it's usually wrong. Oh, and Jack was dangerous - and Sam also said that he was wrong about that. Of course they seem to be retconning and/or downplaying that now, and Castiel insists Jack isn't really dangerous,*** but it did happen at one point, and Sam did say that Dean was right about Jack (and therefore Sam was wrong.)

I get that some see Dean's feelings as being portrayed as wrong by Dabb, because I understand that all too well since Carver did the same to Sam in my opinion throughout season 8 and 9 with the "how dare Sam be angry that Dean lied to him about Gadreel. Look what a jerk he's being" stuff even having killed Kevin say "get over it" ("see Kevin forgave Dean, why can't Sam?") So yeah I get that... but the big things (not feelings stuff)... Sam is generally wrong and shown to be such. Lately whenever the writers need a character to screw up and make a bad decision - like shooting Chuck - they make Sam (or sometimes Castiel) do it. That's been happening since season 8. Dabb is no different than Carver in that regard. It didn't used to be that way, but it is now.

If you asked me to name something big Sam was right about since season 8 began, I'd have a hard time thinking of something.

*** (but that is actually consistent with Castiel's character, because Castiel generally doesn't take full responsibility for his actions, and on the rare occasion he does, it's often in weird, inappropriate ways - like season 8).

On 10/24/2020 at 6:11 AM, Aeryn13 said:

And he is clearly set up to be wrong now. It is obvious Billie is shady in some way and Dean wanting to follow her plan obviously will turn out to be wrong.

Eh, they had it set up that Dean was supposedly wrong about Gadreel, too, but surprise! it turned out that Gadreel was just a misunderstood, semi-heroic being who just wanted to prove himself and helped save the world and wasn't really evil at all. Sam even had to say those kinds of things about the entity that did all of those awful things to him and then call him a friend. And then in contrast, supposedly Jack was just this misunderstood kid and Dean was just being harsh and unreasonable. I remember at the time there were predictions that the writers wouldn't have the Nougat baby ever hurt a fly, but surprise! Jack did turn out to be dangerous and killed Mary (and Nick). So for me, I don't take anything as "obvious" on this show. Somehow it often ends up turned on it's ear and somehow Sam is wrong about it. Or sometimes Castiel - that Naomi thing had to be one of the most WtF set-up then about faces I've ever seen on a show. And there are so many more examples like this.

So nope - I'm not buying it until I see it. I've seen it too many times before on this show recently where the writers do a complete 180 from what they "obviously" set up to think that anything is obvious. I can entirely see the writers pulling a Naomi with Billie and her ending up being the voice of reason somehow.

And if it turns out to be the case that Dean is wrong and Billie is doing something evil, I won't hesitate to admit that I was wrong, because I do that.

Edited October 28, 2020 by AwesomO4000

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I remember at the time there were predictions that the writers wouldn't have the Nougat baby ever hurt a fly, but surprise! Jack did turn out to be dangerous and killed Mary (and Nick).

Jack killed both those people (though I would argue that Nick stopped being a person a long time ago), but killing Nick has barely even been mentioned, and killing Mary is still being framed as not really the  nougat baby's fault, and shame on Dean for being angry about it. Not only shame on Dean, but look! Nougat baby is willing to die to redeem himself in mean ol' Dean's eyes. Sorry, there is no way these writers are framing Dean as anything but w-r-o-n-g when it comes to Jack. And Sam has only reluctantly gone along, agreeing jussst enough to do something so that he can blame Dean for it later, anyway. It's no wonder Sam has a stick up his ass when he's perpetually perched on that fencepost.

 

ETA: @Katy M (below) I absolutely agree Nick needed killing, and I'm not particularly fussed that it was done painfully - the guy was a monster himself (and in ret-con, even more so). I was only speaking to the fact that he's another person Jack killed in a fit of anger/pique, and he's not held accountable in any way, even though it's literally the reason Jack ended up killing Mary, too.

Edited October 28, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

52 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Jack killed both those people (though I would argue that Nick stopped being a person a long time ago), but killing Nick has barely even been mentioned, and killing Mary is still being framed as not really the  nougat baby's fault, and shame on Dean for being angry about it. Not only shame on Dean, but look! Nougat baby is willing to die to redeem himself in mean ol' Dean's eyes. Sorry, there is no way these writers are framing Dean as anything but w-r-o-n-g when it comes to Jack. And Sam has only reluctantly gone along, agreeing jussst enough to do something so that he can blame Dean for it later, anyway. It's no wonder Sam has a stick up his ass when he's perpetually perched on that fencepost.

Nick needed to be killed.  No doubt about that.  Jack was a bit too cruel about it, IMO, but with all the other stuff that happens on this show, I don't consider that to be much of a blip.

Mary's a completely different story.  In a real word scenario, I would equate this with somebody snapping and punching someone just right and killing them.  Sure, they didn't mean it and if they could go back in time they would undo it. But, that doesn't really help anyone and they are generally punished. Not murder 1, but still murder.  And, I don't know anybody that this has happened to personally, but I would imagine that family members are not expected to grovel at their feet.

[BabySpinach]

I'm struck by how noble and courageous Dean was just last season, when he was planning to send Michael and himself to an eternity of torment at the bottom of the ocean. That was not the same man in this episode, yelling desperately about sacrificing someone else because he couldn't stand feeling like a puppet. They could have easily framed it as Dean wanting to save the universe (because that's the kind of person he ACTUALLY is), but instead let it be all about Dean's personal existential crisis instead. It was breathtakingly out of character for him to be so self-centered; he's literally NEVER THOUGHT OR ACTED THIS WAY BEFORE! The more I think about it, the worse it gets.

Dabb and co. inherited this lightning-in-a-bottle combination of actor and character (mostly actor, let's be real), crackling with vitality and authenticity and passion, and yet they continuously trash him out of inexplicable spite in favor of bland woobies. At least these fuckwits can't erase the many, many years of the real and wonderful Dean Winchester, no matter how hard they're clearly trying.

Hard to believe that Last Call 15.07 shares a season with this utter bullshit.

[Myrelle]

14 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

I'm struck by how noble and courageous Dean was just last season, when he was planning to send Michael and himself to an eternity of torment at the bottom of the ocean. That was not the same man in this episode, yelling desperately about sacrificing someone else because he couldn't stand feeling like a puppet. They could have easily framed it as Dean wanting to save the universe (because that's the kind of person he ACTUALLY is), but instead let it be all about Dean's personal existential crisis instead. It was breathtakingly out of character for him to be so self-centered; he's literally NEVER THOUGHT OR ACTED THIS WAY BEFORE! The more I think about it, the worse it gets

IKR?! 

I warned every Dean fan that I know not to watch it. 

I'm going to bed and try to forget that I did.

[shoetingstar]

2 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

I'm struck by how noble and courageous Dean was just last season, when he was planning to send Michael and himself to an eternity of torment at the bottom of the ocean. That was not the same man in this episode, yelling desperately about sacrificing someone else because he couldn't stand feeling like a puppet. They could have easily framed it as Dean wanting to save the universe (because that's the kind of person he ACTUALLY is), but instead let it be all about Dean's personal existential crisis instead. It was breathtakingly out of character for him to be so self-centered; he's literally NEVER THOUGHT OR ACTED THIS WAY BEFORE! The more I think about it, the worse it gets.

Dabb and co. inherited this lightning-in-a-bottle combination of actor and character (mostly actor, let's be real), crackling with vitality and authenticity and passion, and yet they continuously trash him out of inexplicable spite in favor of bland woobies. At least these fuckwits can't erase the many, many years of the real and wonderful Dean Winchester, no matter how hard they're clearly trying.

Hard to believe that Last Call 15.07 shares a season with this utter bullshit.

Beautifully said. I wish there were laws against shitty shitty lazy vindictive writing.

And btw, when Did Cas become Sam's bitch?

Edited October 30, 2020 by shoetingstar

[BabySpinach]

This may be the first time that the writers' skewed morality and perspective genuinely damaged Dean as a character the same way it's damaged Sam and Cas. The other times they tried to frame him as the bullying brute and unreasonable rage monster, he was literally just acting like a normal human person (because the writers think that bland woobies Sam, Cas and Jack are the actual ideal of behavior 🙄) and Dean fans could argue as much.

But here, framing the only one actively trying to save the universe as a selfish monster by giving him this ridiculously small-minded motivation... yeah, it's finally happened. I don't think the writers grasp how truly awful it is to sacrifice someone else for your own gain and how terrible it makes a character look. It's the same damage they did to Cas in 14.20, who completely absolved Nougat Boy and blamed everyone but him. It's the same thing they did with Sam in this very episode, whose whining about Billie putting the world back in order because his girlfriend and a handful of others would be dead like they're supposed to be makes him look like the most selfish asshole ever.

Dean, the last holdout in a room full of woobie cinnamon rolls who actually came across as psychopaths, has finally been taken in by the writers' fucked-up principles. He's never truly compromised his morals before, definitely not to Sam and Cas' extent, but Dabb just needed to get that last, petty little dig in. I can almost see him rubbing his hands together in glee for finally getting to drag him down with the rest of them. Such potent spite for the undisputed face of the show.

There's no show vs. tell to disseminate, not this time.

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

This may be the first time that the writers' skewed morality and perspective genuinely damaged Dean as a character the same way it's damaged Sam and Cas. The other times they tried to frame him as the bullying brute and unreasonable rage monster, he was literally just acting like a normal human person (because the writers think that bland woobies Sam, Cas and Jack are the actual ideal of behavior 🙄) and Dean fans could argue as much.

But here, framing the only one actively trying to save the universe as a selfish monster by giving him this ridiculously small-minded motivation... yeah, it's finally happened. I don't think the writers grasp how truly awful it is to sacrifice someone else for your own gain and how terrible it makes a character look. It's the same damage they did to Cas in 14.20, who completely absolved Nougat Boy and blamed everyone but him. It's the same thing they did with Sam in this very episode, whose whining about Billie putting the world back in order because his girlfriend and a handful of others would be dead like they're supposed to be makes him look like the most selfish asshole ever.

Dean, the last holdout in a room full of woobie cinnamon rolls who actually came across as psychopaths, has finally been taken in by the writers' fucked-up principles. He's never truly compromised his morals before, definitely not to Sam and Cas' extent, but Dabb just needed to get that last, petty little dig in. I can almost see him rubbing his hands together in glee for finally getting to drag him down with the rest of them. Such potent spite for the undisputed face of the show.

There's no show vs. tell to disseminate, not this time.

I'm telling myself it was Chuck literally writing those words.  it the only way Dean's actions make sense.

[Aeryn13]

1 hour ago, BabySpinach said:

This may be the first time that the writers' skewed morality and perspective genuinely damaged Dean as a character the same way it's damaged Sam and Cas. The other times they tried to frame him as the bullying brute and unreasonable rage monster, he was literally just acting like a normal human person (because the writers think that bland woobies Sam, Cas and Jack are the actual ideal of behavior 🙄) and Dean fans could argue as much.

But here, framing the only one actively trying to save the universe as a selfish monster by giving him this ridiculously small-minded motivation... yeah, it's finally happened. I don't think the writers grasp how truly awful it is to sacrifice someone else for your own gain and how terrible it makes a character look. It's the same damage they did to Cas in 14.20, who completely absolved Nougat Boy and blamed everyone but him. It's the same thing they did with Sam in this very episode, whose whining about Billie putting the world back in order because his girlfriend and a handful of others would be dead like they're supposed to be makes him look like the most selfish asshole ever.

Dean, the last holdout in a room full of woobie cinnamon rolls who actually came across as psychopaths, has finally been taken in by the writers' fucked-up principles. He's never truly compromised his morals before, definitely not to Sam and Cas' extent, but Dabb just needed to get that last, petty little dig in. I can almost see him rubbing his hands together in glee for finally getting to drag him down with the rest of them. Such potent spite for the undisputed face of the show.

There's no show vs. tell to disseminate, not this time.

I've been almost 100 % before this episode that Dabbernatural just can't be taken seriously. This was so ridiculously OOC, it cements it.

I mean, how does the character from the previous Seasons exist in that same time frame?

Dabbernatural doesn't have plot or character logic. It only has dopey Stu's, heralded as the epitome of what a person should be like.

[gonzosgirrl]

I've run out of words to express how much I loathe Badd and his minions. I give up.

I'm almost mad at Jensen for agreeing to speak their garbage on film. Yeah, yeah, contracts blah blah blah, obligations, blah blah blah. I don't fucking care. No wonder he said he had to step back and to see the bigger picture. Because I think that bigger picture was his legal obligation to finish the series and look beyond it to (hopefully) better things.

Fuck you, Andre Badd and Robert Singer. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck you..

[FlickChick]

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I've run out of words to express how much I loathe Badd and his minions. I give up.

I'm almost mad at Jensen for agreeing to speak their garbage on film. Yeah, yeah, contracts blah blah blah, obligations, blah blah blah. I don't fucking care. No wonder he said he had to step back and to see the bigger picture. Because I think that bigger picture was his legal obligation to finish the series and look beyond it to (hopefully) better things.

Fuck you, Andre Badd and Robert Singer. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck you..

Yes, 1000X YES! I think you may have hit on what Jensen was going through. I just finished a post in the episode thread in which I wondered how he was able to deliver the dialog. I can't be angry with him for doing his job, but I am angry with both of the Js for not getting EP standing that could have hopefully avoided something like this. They (especially Jensen) should have seen the writing on the wall. And I hate Badd with the heat of a thousand suns. Fuck him and his entire writing staff!

[ILoveReading]

Jensen is too trusting sometimes.  I think Badd and company convinced Jensen to resign for 14 with the promise of playing Michael and he told him that it would go 14 eps.  (Not technically a lie but a definite misdirect).  Then  when that went sideways, Jensen was already locked in to a two year contract and when the network wanted to renew he politely said no. 

When Jensen asked for the Impala, he said he fought for years.  And they told his it would be his with a wink and a nod.  I think it spoke volumes of how much trust was lost when Jensen insisted it be his his contract.    Good for him.

[7kstar]

I kind of had an opposite reaction.  I didn't even care enough about the ep to get mad at it.  It just isn't worth my energy or time.  So it goes in the trash where it belongs, and I'll just forget it happened.  I really couldn't watch it.  I was working on other stuff while it played and the end speech, I'm afraid Chuck sounded like the teachers from Charlie Brown. 

Sorry Jensen, but nothing you did pulled me in other than a split moment.  The look you gave Amara as you tried to ignore your own feelings knowing that killing her is wrong.  The only other spot, when Chuck admits that he didn't control Amara and Dean's reaction or pull toward each other.

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

When Jensen asked for the Impala, he said he fought for years.  And they told his it would be his with a wink and a nod.  I think it spoke volumes of how much trust was lost when Jensen insisted it be his his contract.    Good for him.

I can see this

 

[ahrtee]

Just now, ILoveReading said:

When Jensen asked for the Impala, he said he fought for years.  And they told his it would be his with a wink and a nod.  I think it spoke volumes of how much trust was lost when Jensen insisted it be his his contract.    Good for him.

And then they gave one to Jared, too, (to make things equal or stop the fans from complaining?)  Nothing personal against Jared, just that when one person fights hard for something for years and then they give someone else the same thing for no effort, it's frustrating. 

[FlickChick]

Time to resurrect this sucker. Even the title makes me gag at this point!🤮 *I found the gag emoji. At least I think that's what it is*

I've been trying to understand why Badd is deliberately attacking Dean's character. What it is that he feels about the character and actor that set him on this course. It's hard to imagine anyone doing this to someone who has given his best for 10 years before the asshole took over as showrunner. I'm really at a loss for thoughts/words. Any thoughts?

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Nothing personal against Jared, just that when one person fights hard for something for years and then they give someone else the same thing for no effort, it's frustrating. 

It is possible they were both offered cars but Jensen wanted the hero.  Someone said that Baby1 was worth 100K in its current condition.

[gonzosgirrl]

51 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

And then they gave one to Jared, too, (to make things equal or stop the fans from complaining?)  Nothing personal against Jared, just that when one person fights hard for something for years and then they give someone else the same thing for no effort, it's frustrating. 

IMO, Jared has benefited from Jensen in pretty much every way. This is (probably) just the last one.

[DeeDee79]

59 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This is (probably) just the last one.

Let's hope so.

 

 

[gonzosgirrl]

I think it's telling that in all the interviews and zooms, etc., surrounding the final season and especially this final run, I can't recall one word of praise from Jensen about any of the writing or writers.  He openly said he would have liked to get to the ending some other way (paraphrased). The last writer I can remembering him even mentioning is Robbie Thompson ('jokingly' asking him to come back). Jensen is effusive in his praise of his fellow actors and of the production crew, so IMO his silence speaks volumes.  And here at the end, with only a few hours of show left,  there is radio silence on social media. I will never believe he enjoyed these last two eps, and I dread the next one, since no doubt 

Spoiler

Responsibility for Castiel's fate will probably be laid at  Dean's feet, too.  

 

[DeeDee79]

21 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think it's telling that in all the interviews and zooms, etc., surrounding the final season and especially this final run, I can't recall one word of praise from Jensen about any of the writing or writers.  He openly said he would have liked to get to the ending some other way (paraphrased). The last writer I can remembering him even mentioning is Robbie Thompson ('jokingly' asking him to come back). Jensen is effusive in his praise of his fellow actors and of the production crew, so IMO his silence speaks volumes.  And here at the end, with only a few hours of show left,  there is radio silence on social media. I will never believe he enjoyed these last two eps, and I dread the next one, since no doubt 

  Hide contents

Responsibility for Castiel's fate will probably be laid at  Dean's feet, too.  

 

I agree with you and this makes me glad that it was Jensen that pulled the plug ( it seems obvious now ) but I'm also upset that he didn't do so sooner. It seems glaringly obvious to me that the disdain that the writers have for Dean increased tenfold in the last season and it can only be because they are taking it out on Jensen for ending things. I'm also seriously side eyeing Jared for being so gung ho about the final season which can only be because he's being portrayed as the good guy while his supposed buddy that's been there and has had his back from the beginning is having his character destroyed with every episode. I also agree with you @gonzosgirrl regarding being a little upset with Jensen that he stuck around this long. In my mind the series ended with season 11 ( omitting the BMOL scenes in the finale ) and I'm sticking to that.

[Terese]

7 hours ago, FlickChick said:

Time to resurrect this sucker. Even the title makes me gag at this point!🤮 *I found the gag emoji. At least I think that's what it is*

I've been trying to understand why Badd is deliberately attacking Dean's character. What it is that he feels about the character and actor that set him on this course. It's hard to imagine anyone doing this to someone who has given his best for 10 years before the asshole took over as showrunner. I'm really at a loss for thoughts/words. Any thoughts?

Well, firstly, it isnt just Dean. I clearly remember how degraded Sam was when AU Bobby called him a poor leader, evidence further by the slaughter of the hunters he was training and protecting. Shown as weak and incompetent by Nick, a human.He is weaken right along with Dean in Heroes Journey and of course stupid and crazy by Chuck/Dabbs own words in Moriah, proving his point by recklessly shooting God, being shown as a  coward tied to a chair, after foolishly walking into a trap. Shall I go on? 

Then there is Cas, who does as little as possible, fretting over Jack . Mother hen, with nothing to do but repeat himself.

Dean is the most vocal, and by Dean I probably also mean Jensen. Jensen publically proclaimed his concerns regarding a two week struggle where he relied on the creator for his advise regarding the impending disaster. Sending the "fans" into angst and speculation as to what horror will next befall the show.

Given a public announcement by the CW president ending any hope for spinoffs because of the beloved Sam and Dean, further public humiliation by Jensen, throw in a mouthpiece in the name of Chuck and watch both show destroyed and characters become puppets, hamsters, weak fools who have the audacity to defy Dabb?  And we still have 3 episodes left. 

[ahrtee]

Moved from the Unity thread:

4 hours ago, Terese said:

There are mustache twirling histrionic and egotistical supervillains that pop up all the time in comic books and cartoons. They are cheesy, and over the top, saying hateful scary things to frighten, well, children mostly.

Usually, adult stories have well-developed, nuanced characters with motivations, and they almost never blow raspberries.

I keep thinking Chuck has an agenda. Since everyone appears able to spy on everyone else(Billie able to leave her domain and spy on other worlds, eg) while planting ideas and manipulating, I would like to believe it is all an act; that no malice could be that obvious. The Empty seemed clueless. Maybe it will fall for the act. (I love Meg and Rachel Miner. Absolutely no insult intended.) But, I loved Chuck and far prefer the God who stepped aside believing in his most cherished children. So, I will hope that the writers, who seem to like dull stories punctuated with big surprises, will have yet another big surprise that restores Chuck.

The bolded part (emphasis mine)  is the best description we've had of Dabb's writing.  He is, and always has been, a comic-book writer.  He's more enthralled by comic books and cartoons than "adult stories," and all his writing and showrunning shows it.  

There's never been any hint that he has anything in mind other than WYSIWYG--no hidden depths to any of his characters, and he's managed to make the 3D characters created by others into as one-dimensional and cheesy as his own creations.  He may, indeed, pull some kind of "twist" at the end, but it's not one that grows organically or is anything other than a "gotcha!" moment.  

If you check Dabb's Twitter account, he's obsessed with a particular artist that does nothing but bug-eyed cartoon women.  He spends most of his time praising and raving about those pictures, and only mentions Supernatural when either he retweets something from WB or (I'm guessing) is pressed to give some supposedly intriguing hint about the upcoming ep (NOTE TO DABB:  your hints are more confusing than intriguing, and usually have nothing whatsoever to do with the actual content of the ep.)  This is not someone who is invested in his own show, much less wanting others to watch and enjoy.  His version of life *is* a cartoon, very static, where he can read whatever he wants into a single picture and doesn't give a shit about anyone else seeing what he does (much less liking it.)  

Am I bitter?  Hell yes!  It's bad enough to create your own 2-D characters and think they're good; it's beyond horrible to take well-developed 3-D ones and reduce them to line drawings.  And that's all on Dabb, not Chuck. 

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Moved from the Unity thread:

The bolded part (emphasis mine)  is the best description we've had of Dabb's writing.  He is, and always has been, a comic-book writer.  He's more enthralled by comic books and cartoons than "adult stories," and all his writing and showrunning shows it.  

There's never been any hint that he has anything in mind other than WYSIWYG--no hidden depths to any of his characters, and he's managed to make the 3D characters created by others into as one-dimensional and cheesy as his own creations.  He may, indeed, pull some kind of "twist" at the end, but it's not one that grows organically or is anything other than a "gotcha!" moment.  

If you check Dabb's Twitter account, he's obsessed with a particular artist that does nothing but bug-eyed cartoon women.  He spends most of his time praising and raving about those pictures, and only mentions Supernatural when either he retweets something from WB or (I'm guessing) is pressed to give some supposedly intriguing hint about the upcoming ep (NOTE TO DABB:  your hints are more confusing than intriguing, and usually have nothing whatsoever to do with the actual content of the ep.)  This is not someone who is invested in his own show, much less wanting others to watch and enjoy.  His version of life *is* a cartoon, very static, where he can read whatever he wants into a single picture and doesn't give a shit about anyone else seeing what he does (much less liking it.)  

Am I bitter?  Hell yes!  It's bad enough to create your own 2-D characters and think they're good; it's beyond horrible to take well-developed 3-D ones and reduce them to line drawings.  And that's all on Dabb, not Chuck. 

I wish I could like this post a million times. 

[Casseiopeia]

17 hours ago, FlickChick said:

Time to resurrect this sucker. Even the title makes me gag at this point!🤮 *I found the gag emoji. At least I think that's what it is*

I've been trying to understand why Badd is deliberately attacking Dean's character. What it is that he feels about the character and actor that set him on this course. It's hard to imagine anyone doing this to someone who has given his best for 10 years before the asshole took over as showrunner. I'm really at a loss for thoughts/words. Any thoughts?

 

The bigger question is why did Jensen hang in there? He certainly didn't have to....specially after S13.  

[Aeryn13]

15 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

 

The bigger question is why did Jensen hang in there? He certainly didn't have to....specially after S13.  

As an actor on the show he would have a different perspective on it to a degree. Very good money for increasingly less time. Steady job. Genuinely enjoys the environment on set and the crew he works with. All perks no mere viewer has. 

[Casseiopeia]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

As an actor on the show he would have a different perspective on it to a degree. Very good money for increasingly less time. Steady job. Genuinely enjoys the environment on set and the crew he works with. All perks no mere viewer has. 

I suppose but Jensen (and Jared) have both said they are very protective of their characters.  Maybe the scripts look better on paper?