“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[SueB]

11 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This is about  Supernatural Ending, but my comment is going to be BvJ and also bitter speculation, so I don't really know where the right/wrong place is...

Is there any chance at all that Jensen wasn't sure about the ending because it's too Dean-centric? That maybe Dean does get to be a BDH, go down swinging, and that's too final for him?

Yeah, I know. Not likely, but a girl can dream. (PS... the 'fans' will find a reason to be mad at Jensen no matter how it ends. Count on it.)

I’ve suspected this for a while.  If the end was shitty for him but good for Jared, he wouldn’t publicly admit initial doubts.  Much more likely it’s the opposite IMO. 

[ahrtee]

17 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Sam did have character growth - between seasons 5 and 7 - and I was perfectly fine with it. I thought it's evolution and execution was done well.

Isn't it kind of strange that the seasons you consider Sam's well-done character growth were the ones where he spent most of the year soulless or under the influence of Satanvision and pretty much out of touch with the real world?  The only thing he did that might hint at character growth was feeling guilty for what he did when he was wasn't himself, which IMO is more hubris (I'm sorry I wasn't heroic enough to stop myself from doing bad things  when I was drinking demon blood, hallucinating Lucifer or had no soul) as opposed to the things he did wrong when he *was* in full compos mentis.  Sorry, not really character growth in my eyes, just more of the same.   YMMV.  

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by ahrtee
extra comma. I had to.

[Aeryn13]

20 minutes ago, SueB said:

I’ve suspected this for a while.  If the end was shitty for him but good for Jared, he wouldn’t publicly admit initial doubts.  Much more likely it’s the opposite IMO. 

He has expressed severe didappointment before over the handling of Dean's stories, why  not now? And Jared gushed over the Finale openly so IMO it isn't bad for Sam in his opinion.

However, I do believe Jensen considers it likely a meh ending for the show overall, like for example a lollipop world or something like this.

The Finale being Dean-positive is out of the question under Dabb and the current writers. I mean, all has to do is look at the current episodes. Or the episodes since Season 12. 

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Isn't it kind of strange that the seasons you consider Sam's well-done character growth were the ones where he spent most of the year soulless or under the influence of Satanvision and pretty much out of touch with the real world?  The only thing he did that might hint at character growth was feeling guilty for what he did when he was wasn't himself, which IMO is more hubris (I'm, sorry I wasn't heroic enough to stop myself from doing bad things  when I was drinking demon blood, hallucinating Lucifer or had no soul) as opposed to the things he did wrong when he *was* in full compos mentis.  Sorry, not really character growth in my eyes, just more of the same.   YMMV. 

First, I don't quite understand how Sam feeling guilty for things that were not quite his fault is somehow evidence of hubris, but when Dean feels guilty for things that aren't his fault - which is a lot - it's not hubris, but low self-esteem or something like that. That makes no sense to me. And the drinking demon blood was Sam's fault, so his admitting that that was a bad decision was Sam admitting he was wrong... I don't quite understand how it isn't myself.

And Sam did understand what he did wrong, admitted that if he could, he wouldn't have done the same things, and actively worked to change himself. And during those seasons, Sam showed a lot of other growth in my opinion. Here are just some examples that I saw.

In season 5:

• Sam recognized his addiction, and instead of lying about it and trying to hide it, he admitted his limitation and that he needed help ("My Bloody Valentine"). Contrast this with Castiel who couldn't admit that he had a problem, and in the end it became a liability.
• Sam admitted that he had an anger problem and he tried to keep it under control and pretty much succeeded.
• He gave Dean the benefit of the doubt in "Point of No Return." There Sam didn't insist that Dean couldn't do it or would make the wrong decision. He didn't insist that only he - Sam - could make the right decision. He put it all - the potential fate of the entire world - in Dean's hands. I'd call that progress and character growth. (Ironically that episode was written by Jeremy Carver).

In Season 6B:

• Sam did feel guilty and wanted to make amends, yes, but when it looked like that would cause problems with potentially dinging the wall, Sam stopped. He knew what that would do to Dean, and he didn't insist. And Sam accepted that and moved on.
• Sam made sure that Dean knew how grateful he was for getting his soul back. There wasn't any annoyance or complaining about Dean doing anything to disturb the order, just love and gratitude.
• When faced with potentially giving up and avoiding his hell memories, Sam chose to take them anyway so that he could be there for Dean.

In Season 7:

• Sam forgave Castiel for trying to kill him, being fairly understanding, and put any hard feelings aside to try to solve the problem at hand.
• Sam realized that his slate could never be "wiped clean" but instead of brooding on it and doing a bunch of naval gazing, he decided to go with that he'd paid enough and move forward to get what needed to be done done. It may not have been written / expressed well, but in my opinion the sentiment was a sign of character growth / maturity.
• In "The Mentalists," Sam accepted Dean's harsh criticism and not only listened to Dean's explanation and admitted that Dean was right, he capitulated without much fuss. (Carver's later retcon of that pissed me off.)
• Just because Sam hallucinated Lucifer didn't mean he didn't know what was going on. And he didn't use Lucifer as an excuse for anything. After his one mess up - in "Hello Cruel World" - Sam spent the rest of season 7 keeping Dean entirely abreast of his mental health. No pride or lying or hiding or "I'm fines" if he wasn't. And as soon as things started getting to where he started going downhill, he told Dean right away.
• Sam admitted that he did need Dean sometimes. ("Season 7: Time for a Wedding") And he accepted that rather than show resentment for needing Dean. Definite progress and character growth in my opinion.

And since I consider all of these things positive changes and signs of character growth, no I don't think it's "kind of strange" at all. I thought it was honest to goodness character growth that I thought the writers purposefully put in the writing and even took their time doing it, so that it seemed more organic.

And for me, this character growth made a lot of sense, because Sam's time in the box would tend to change someone and give them some perspective. I could entirely imagine that Sam's Lucifer hallucinations would seem to be small potatoes compared to what happened in the cage and that Sam would see it as such.

That when Carver took over he chose to ignore most of that character growth and even regular Sam behavior like looking for Dean (which ironically one of the biggest examples of that was one of his own damn episodes) did not mean for me that this character growth didn't happen. It meant to me that the writers - and Carver especially - chose his own story ideas (which were mostly bad anyway - *cough Amelia cough*) over what would have organically happened based on the characters and their growth. Because most of the growth happened while he wasn't with the show, Carver either just didn't want to bother to study those seasons or he arrogantly thought he could "do it better" and purposefully ignored it and wrote whatever he felt like, canon and continuity be damned.

[AwesomO4000]

17 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

I am so goddamn mad that not once was that framed by Sam as any kind of "I need to do it so Dean doesn't have to". Not once? Not even at the beginning of the season before the audience realises how far he has already gone? not even as one of many other reasons?!? (n.b. I actually love seaon 4)

They came pretty close? Or so I thought anyway.

I kind of got that vibe first from "On the Head of a Pin." It was a bit arrogant, but I got that Sam even in his arrogance didn't want Dean to have to go through that. It's why he was pissed that they took Dean to begin with. He didn't want Dean to have to relive that. Yes, he said that he didn't think that Dean could do it - not a good look - but he was also pissed at Castiel for making Dean go through that. And that anger was genuine, in my opinion. (And intimidating. I think if Castiel hadn't been an angel, but a regular person, he would have been fearing for his life with how angry on Dean's behalf Sam was at that point.)

I think the closest though was "The Monster at the End..." when Sam said "Well he's [Dean] looked after me my whole life. I can't return the favor?"

Chuck twisted that around to make it seem like that wasn't why Sam was doing it, but I actually think that was part of the reason. I think that Sam did believe that he was at least partially doing it so that Dean wouldn't have to, and not just because he thought Dean couldn't, but because as Sam said - echoing that season 2 quote you mentioned - that Dean had been looking out for him and he wanted to return the favor, especially since he hadn't been able to save Dean from hell.

Yes it would've been nice if the writers had more directly visited Sam's motivation, but for me I still saw it there. Although I also know that others don't see it the same way.

37 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

(though even that was brought back to blaming Dean again for making the deal in the first place)

The writers walked that back though, even within that same episode. Castiel made it clear that it wasn't Dean's fault, but "fate."

Quote

Season 5 didn't try hard enough to bring Sam back around instead opting for the big symbolic sacrifice rather than a developed redemption arc, and they've never been able to break away from that cycle since. 

I didn't have as much trouble with season 5 as you did. I was okay with the redemption arc, especially because I thought that Sera handled it okay later on - with all of the character growth (for me) that I saw that I talked about above. And in retrospect especially, because the later writers didn't give Sam much chance at all to do much of anything remotely heroic... or if they did, it was usually a precursor to making him do something that would totally negate it soon after.

Or worse, they'd just make him do crappy stuff even if it made no sense so that other characters could look better in comparison. It was why I could never entirely embrace Benny. I could never shake the thought that much of the reason Sam was made to look so badly was so that Benny could be that "better brother." And of course Benny was Carver's creation so win-win for him. He could ignore the seasons he wasn't with the show, and his character could be the misjudged hero that saved Sam.

Sorry, but Sam and Dean and their relationship is what I watched the show for. Benny being wedged in there to mess that up was never going to go over well with me.

Quote

I remember the "Amelia is a hallucination" spec. and I still wish it was true.

I was totally one of those people. To me that would've made so much more sense and much better fit the perception vs reality thing that was supposed to be happening.

And again, Carver creating this character and then having her be Sam's "one true love" pissed me off. I saw the show. I'm not just going to forget Jessica and what she meant to Sam just because Carver wants to rewrite history. It doesn't work that way for me.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I was totally one of those people. To me that would've made so much more sense and much better fit the perception vs reality thing that was supposed to be happening.

And again, Carver creating this character and then having her be Sam's "one true love" pissed me off. I saw the show. I'm not just going to forget Jessica and what she meant to Sam just because Carver wants to rewrite history. It doesn't work that way for me.

And now we know that it was just an illusion, a plot point, written by Chuck, to turn the brothers against each other. Maybe even, dun, dun, dunnnn, make one of them kill the other. Muah ha ha ha.

God, I hate hating this show now.

Edited February 5, 2020 by gonzosgirrl
missing word

[gonzosgirrl]

I am surprised they haven't gone back to S6 and have Sam cut off Vampire Dean's head, or S4, to the hotel room in When The Levee Breaks, where Sam choked Dean, for one of Chuck's alternate ending visions. Or even farther, to the Asylum, where Dean didn't have time to take the bullets out of his gun.

So were all those things Chuck intervening? or good luck?

Ffffffffffffffffuck.

Edited February 5, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[SueB]

8 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The Finale being Dean-positive is out of the question under Dabb and the current writers. I mean, all has to do is look at the current episodes. Or the episodes since Season 12. 

This is where context matters regarding my comment.  I think "The Gambler" was a good Dean-positive episode.  It wasn't a "OMG Dean IS THE BEST" episode, but both Sam and Dean played well off each other and both emerged as Big Damn Heroes as proclaimed by the Roman Goddess of Luck.  I don't think an episode has to be Dean-centric to be Dean-positive. 

In that context, I think there's a reasonable chance that the actual series ending is more Dean-positive than by my standards.  

[Aeryn13]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

This is where context matters regarding my comment.  I think "The Gambler" was a good Dean-positive episode.  It wasn't a "OMG Dean IS THE BEST" episode, but both Sam and Dean played well off each other and both emerged as Big Damn Heroes as proclaimed by the Roman Goddess of Luck.  I don't think an episode has to be Dean-centric to be Dean-positive. 

In that context, I think there's a reasonable chance that the actual series ending is more Dean-positive than by my standards.  

So by my standards it would be Dean-bashing and Sam-propping then. Well, I'd believe that about the Finale in a heartbeat.

[ILoveReading]

6 minutes ago, SueB said:

I don't think an episode has to be Dean-centric to be Dean-positive. 

I don't think this was either.  Dean couldn't fix the car he spent the majority of his life time maintaining. 

Dean might have won but he killed a cancer patient and didn't seem to care.  Are we supposed to believe Dean cared about people only because Chuck wrote him that way?

Sam wasn't called a beach read.  I don't care if beach reads are popular.  They are called beach reads becasue they are quick and light reading and don't require much thought.  I'm sorry but there is no way not to see that as an insult at Dean, IMO.  

She certainly didn't care that Dean said he as Tolstoy.  She wanted to play Sam because he was interesting.  If a writer wants to send a message that she doesn't' want to play Dean because of his skill, then she should have called Sam the beach read.  If its no big deal and not really an insult then it should okay to direct it at Sam.

Sam is the one that impressed her enough to give her back their luck.  Dean got it back as an afterthought.   Sam got the moment where he upped the stakes.  Dean got to tack on a "me too"

So I really don't see a Dean positive moment.   Nothing about this episode changes if Dean wasn't in it.

It didn't change the message that Sam and Dean only have skills because someone else granted those to them.  The writing made sure people knew Sam was good at spell work.  It did nothing like that for Dean.

 

[Aeryn13]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't think this was either.  Dean couldn't fix the car he spent the majority of his life time maintaining. 

Dean might have won but he killed a cancer patient and didn't seem to care.  Are we supposed to believe Dean cared about people only because Chuck wrote him that way?

Sam wasn't called a beach read.  I don't care if beach reads are popular.  They are called beach reads becasue they are quick and light reading and don't require much thought.  I'm sorry but there is no way not to see that as an insult at Dean, IMO.  

She certainly didn't care that Dean said he as Tolstoy.  She wanted to play Sam because he was interesting.  If a writer wants to send a message that she doesn't' want to play Dean because of his skill, then she should have called Sam the beach read.  If its no big deal and not really an insult then it should okay to direct it at Sam.

Sam is the one that impressed her enough to give her back their luck.  Dean got it back as an afterthought.   Sam got the moment where he upped the stakes.  Dean got to tack on a "me too"

So I really don't see a Dean positive moment.   Nothing about this episode changes if Dean wasn't in it.

It didn't change the message that Sam and Dean only have skills because someone else granted those to them.  The writing made sure people knew Sam was good at spell work.  It did nothing like that for Dean.

 

Exactly. If you leave all the Sam-parts intact - he solves the Fortuna case, he plays her because he is so interesting to her, he impresses her - and just not have Dean there, you still get the exact same outcome of the episode. Dean can come in at the tail end and grab the coin from Sam. 

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean might have won but he killed a cancer patient and didn't seem to care.  Are we supposed to believe Dean cared about people only because Chuck wrote him that way?

And before that he beat a woman who was playing for her comatose sister.

I do believe she gave them back their luck because of both of them, but once again, I'm forced to think about, to assume that Dean was included, meanwhile it is spell out in BIG RED LETTERS for Sam. She looked right at Sam and said (impressed) "You got me talking", implying that is why she lost. It was Dean who got her talking, but the dialogue credits Sam. Sam said 'Me' when talking about caring about people. Dean had to say 'Us'. That right there is for another post, but still, as you said, Dean was forced to say 'me too', like an afterthought. There is, IMO, no way to look at this episode that doesn't leave the impression that one brother is better, more empathetic, more heroic, than the other. There just isn't.

Edited February 5, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Exactly. If you leave all the Sam-parts intact - he solves the Fortuna case, he plays her because he is so interesting to her, he impresses her - and just not have Dean there, you still get the exact same outcome of the episode. Dean can come in at the tail end and grab the coin from Sam. 

Perez literally had Dean go off and drive the car while Sam did his thing. Again.

And then he couldn't even have him do that right off screen - Baby still gave him trouble.

[ILoveReading]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

meanwhile it is spell out in BIG RED LETTERS for Sam.

Its been this way all season.  In the Rowena ep, where she says no one can go into her apartment, except Sam.  Fans were left to guess whether that included Dean and the dialogue never cleared it up. 

All season long, Dean fans have had to look for ways to include Dean.  Even in closing hell, he was given the least to do.  Rowena talked about how dangerous it was but in reality, Dean knelt next to the hole.  They didn't actually show him getting attacked.  It looked like he did nothing.  There were a lot of fans who felt that way too considered the number of Dean is useless tweets I saw from Cas fans.

The trip to Purgatory doesn't' change if Dean wasn't there.  Despite that fact that it was Dean that killed Eve, she wanted Cas.  If Dean wasn't in this season the only think the writers would have to rewrite was someone else kneeling next to the hole. 

Even the one ep Dean got focus, it was a one off and not related to the plot.  Also was Dean able to fight Lee because Chuck wanted him too?  Apparently he cant' fight on his own.

While this season isn't all that Sam positive either at least the writers are giving him the little moments. 

Want to bet that when it come time to make the big "we are the writers of our own story speech' when it counts its given to Sam.

Edited February 5, 2020 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Its been this way all season.  In the Rowena ep, where she says no one can go into her apartment, except Sam.  Fans were left to guess whether that included Dean and the dialogue never cleared it up. 

All season long, Dean fans have had to look for ways to include Dean.  Even in closing hell, he was given the least to do.  Rowena talked about how dangerous it was but in reality, Dean knelt next to the hole.  They didn't actually show him getting attacked.  It looked like he did nothing.  There were a lot of fans who felt that way too considered the number of Dean is useless tweets I saw from Cas fans.

The trip to Purgatory doesn't' change if Dean wasn't there.  Despite that fact that it was Dean that killed Eve, she wanted Cas.  If Dean wasn't in this season the only think the writers would have to rewrite was someone else kneeling next to the hole. 

Even the one ep Dean got focus, it was a one off and not related to the plot.  Also was Dean able to fight Lee because Chuck wanted him too?  Apparently he cant' fight on his own.

While this season isn't all that Sam positive either at least the writers are giving him the little moments. 

Want to bet that when it come time to make the big "we are the writers of our own story speech' when it counts its given to Sam.

I think it has been a great season for Sam.

I further think that s12-15 have been great for Sam, since Regarding Dean when, IMO, Dabb(for all intensive purposes) completely killed off the complex character who was  Dean Winchester and that was previously written, more often than not, in all of those previous seasons, and replaced him with a Dean Winchester who was narrowly, strictly, and only written to prop and pimp ALL the other characters on the show now(and instead of JUST Sam) when he wasn't being written as strictly and only the comic relief. 

And I think it's for this reason, more than any other, that the show is ending now, at least two seasons before the network hoped it would end.

And I wholeheartedly applaud whoever first put that thought into words and I think it's easy to guess who that was, ESPECIALLY given the no-holds-barred, utter ugliness and pettiness that almost the entire writing room is showing not just the Dean character but, IMO, the actor who portrays him also.

At this point, the finale being more Dean-positive is just a pipe dream, IMO.

I would take it completely as his due, if that's what happens, again, especially after the treatment he's received for the past 4 seasons, but I can in no way expect it or hope for it from this set of writers.

No way. Not at this point. 

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Myrelle
Additions

[7kstar]

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

At this point, the finale being more Dean-positive is just a pipe dream, IMO.

I would take it completely as his due, if that's what happens, again, especially after the treatment he's received for the past 4 seasons, but I can in no way expect it or hope for it from this set of writers.

No way. Not at this point. 

Oh, I agree.  They throw a bone to try to keep Dean fans hopeful, but I'm not falling for it.  Yes, they allowed Dean to walk towards Chuck and use his height as he said no we won't do it, summarized not the actual lines.

They've given a moment here and there but the ratings are showing that many are not tuning in.   The ratings should be higher but it's going down. 

I believe Kripke also has an issue with WB and it may not allow him to do anything at this point.  I remember reading something but not enough to tell you why he can't.  I do know that one writer created a series and only had hands on for the pilot.  After that he was gone but they still had to keep his name associated with it.  I doubt that Kripke has had any hands on for a very long time.

As far as undoing whatever Dabb does...He must know nothing about Soaps.  They do it all the time.  The key give some time before they reintroduce the new actor.  Even Dallas did the it was all a dream and one show ended with the actor waking up from a nightmare on his old show.  So undoing anything they've done with Dabb is possible.  To be honest if they wanted to do any kind of spin off for SP, they need time so they can get new writers.  With the current lets reboot, insert title, they only have to wait.  But even fanfiction is slowing down on Supernatural.  So for right now, I would suggest end show and let time pass before you think about doing anything else with it.  I'm talking years. 

This would give Jensen time to explore other options that I hope he will continue acting somewhere.

[AwesomO4000]

9 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

I'm not saying the vibe wasn't there at all, of course it wouldn't be something I would be annoyed about not being said if it wasn't something I could already believe coming out of Sam's mouth. But Sam has always, always, been more tell than show, and quite often he is given the privilege of narrating his own tell. So when they don't bother to tell, and in this case there are a few occasions where it would mean the switching of literally only a few words, I wonder if they meant it at all or if I just wanted to see it.

I don't think they cared? Or they didn't care enough to bother. They seemed more interested in plot than they seemed to be in motivation. That time jump skipped over a bunch of very important things. I mean, how much different would the feel of season 4 have been if we'd seen Sam bury Dean and experienced his trauma at that like we did when Dean talked to dead Sam? (For me, it would have been a lot different.) Or we had seen what drove Sam to drink demon blood for the first time? Was it trauma at not being able to save people and it snowballed from there or was it just that he wanted to get stronger for ego reasons from the beginning or was he just so drunk he got talked into it? Who knows? And potentially either or anywhere in between were viable... and knowing which the writers were going for - for me - might have made a big difference in how I saw the season. I shouldn't have had to fill in those gaps in my opinion. Not with a main character.

So for me, because of that lack of "tell" with regard to Sam that season, I actually think it was the "show" for me that did it here actually - and I credit Jared for that*** - because for some reason in season 4, as I outlined above, they seemed to yada yada yada over a bunch of important stuff in relation to Sam.

So I'm not surprised they yada yada yada'd over something like you described above. I don't think they wanted to bother with fleshing out a complex motive for Sam. so it was up to Jared to put any complexity into it... and that's a tall order when we, the audience, aren't even clued in as to what the character motivation was supposed to be with actual facts that should have happened onscreen.

*** Because I really did buy Sam's anger over what Dean had to go through in "On the Head..." and I really did believe Sam wanted to return the favor and watch out for Dean this time in "The Monster..."

Okay here's just some other blather that's only tangentially related, but your post made me think of - and it wasn't something I'd really considered before so, interesting, and I went with it! Feel free to skip if you want.

I don't get the same always "more tell" vibe from Sam as you do... and not because I don't think that's the way Sam generally is. I do think that, but Dean is his brother. Dean doesn't generally like the "tell." (Not with family anyway... tell is "safer" with strangers). Back in season 1 and 2, for example Sam used to be more tell. Like in the witch episode (where Sam I think got the "just kill me now" from Dean.) And like after John died, Sam wanted to talk. Dean was having none of it. Sam poured his guts out and nada.

It seemed to evolve over time - and depending on the circumstance - where Sam talked less and did more. Season 3 had some good examples. Like where Sam let Dean have more time with the "Doublemint Twins." His Christmas for Dean. His hug in "Mystery Spot." There was a whole bunch of emotional stuff in the backstory of all of those, but Sam didn't say anything about it, because he likely thought Dean wouldn't want to hear it. So he went with "show" rather than "tell." Sam did other "show" stuff too, that I don't think he gets credit for a lot of the time. Going along with Dean's often humiliating scenarios on cases that used to be more common - going along with pretending he likes dressing up dolls or that he wants to sit on Santa's lap or saying that the wreaths with the meadow sweet are "yummy?"  That's love, in my opinion, that Sam went along with that and always agreed to be the one to do the potentially humiliating stuff.

Sam still did the "tell" but he sometimes kept it short and to the point - like "Mannequin 3." Or saved it for when he gets drunk (like "Playthings") or high (like "Sam, Interrupted"), or emotional and desperate (like "Sam, interrupted" again), but in that last case, he got shut down and just gave up.

Season 4 was kind of a transition period. We saw Sam "telling" again - like in "I know What You Did Last Summer" - but also getting shut down a lot and getting more and more defensive. Season 5 I'm not so sure about - probably more "tell" - generally falling on deaf ears, for obvious reasons. I'm not sure how it fall on the continuum.

But I should have included in my Sam's character growth that he went back more to "show" in season 6 and 7. Wearing the western stuff to humor Dean in "Frontierland." Giving Dean the giant slinky. I think there was pie involved somewhere. And that's the kind of thing that Carver left by the wayside in season 8 - along with a bunch of other stuff.

So basically, I think Sam used to adapt and find multiple ways to communicate with Dean - rather than just "tell" - but later on in the series as the writers didn't bother to keep Sam as complex a character, that fell by the wayside.

Edited February 5, 2020 by AwesomO4000

[FlickChick]

@AwesomO4000, we all understand that Sam is your guy. And I'm sure that most know that Dean is mine. But here's the thing, you keep mentioning Sam's traits, personality, and other descriptors from seasons long past. Where you see one character trait as in-character and positive, I see another that makes me want to shake him and tell him to grow up. In recent seasons, really, none of this matters because with the exception of our horrendous showrunner, none of the current writers were there when he has those characteristics. So, there can't be any regression when they don't know much about Sam anyway.  They write what they are told, and IMO at least try in their inept way to keep Sam as the human hero as much as possible while their true goal is to give the very special nephilm - or whatever he currently is - the main focus while he's onscreen. In the meantime, Dean is given the crumbs, ignored, or ignorant. The only reason, IMO, why Dean may seem to come out a little better is that Jensen has the ability to add more to the script with subtle acting. I'm sorry, but I don't think Jared does that - he plays it as written. And when the writers are trying to prop Sam up in dialog, when Jared plays it as it's written, Sam frankly comes across as an ass. That's what I'm seeing anyway, even though it is not the writers' intent. I understand your frustration with these current writers, because I feel the same way about how Dean is being written. Since Dabb took over, and all the talented writers left, we really can just expect more of the same. It's a sad state of affairs and I wish they had ended the series at the end of S11 with Sam and Cas coming back to the bunker and seeing Dean sitting there, smiling, with Mary. End scene...

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, FlickChick said:

It's a sad state of affairs and I wish they had ended the series at the end of S11 with Sam and Cas coming back to the bunker and seeing Dean sitting there, smiling, with Mary. End scene...

This would have been a perfect ending. No Jack, no BMOL, no Lucifer, no evil God Chuck, no AU hunters, and no destruction of Mary's character. Plus Crowley was still alive so that's an extra bonus.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, FlickChick said:

It's a sad state of affairs and I wish they had ended the series at the end of S11 with Sam and Cas coming back to the bunker and seeing Dean sitting there, smiling, with Mary. End scene...

As far as I'm concerned, with the exception of a very few episodes I will consider one-offs, the series did end there. Except a smiling Dean walks back into the bunker alone and shows Cas and Dean the unlimited Biggerson's gift card Amara gave him as thanks.

[Myrelle]

32 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

As far as I'm concerned, with the exception of a very few episodes I will consider one-offs, the series did end there. Except a smiling Dean walks back into the bunker alone and shows Cas and Dean the unlimited Biggerson's gift card Amara gave him as thanks.

IA and this sounds like a great ending to me. 🥰👏🙌😄👍

Edited February 6, 2020 by Myrelle
Additions

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, FlickChick said:

I'm sorry, but I don't think Jared does that - he plays it as written.

Isn't it an actor's job to bring the writers' intent to life, though?

I've seen comments before concerning the disconnect in season10 between what Castiel and Sam are saying - that Dean is in trouble, that he's maybe losing control - and what Dean is actually coming across as. And I've seen some suggest that it may be because Jensen was putting more depth into MoC Dean than what was on the page. But in that case is the story disconnect Jared's and Misha's fault for playing Sam and Castiel as written or is Jensen partially to blame for putting "something else into it" and muddling the story?

I think an argument can be made for both. It's maybe sometimes hard for the viewer to gauge "writer intent" when the actors - either or both - are potentially playing things that aren't intended.

It's difficult for me to believe that the writers are trying to do Sam favors when the storylines so often make him do stupid things. No amount of "propping," as you call it, can make up for the stuff they make Sam - and generally only Sam (or sometimes Castiel) - do.

I agree with @Harleycat . The unbalance in recent seasons is jarring, and it makes for frustrating viewing.

3 hours ago, FlickChick said:

In recent seasons, really, none of this matters because with the exception of our horrendous showrunner, none of the current writers were there when he has those characteristics. So, there can't be any regression when they don't know much about Sam anyway. 

But that's their fault. The writers should know everything about the characters they are writing for. Otherwise it's not really Supernatural, but just some random genre show. And if they don't know much about Sam anyway and don't know how to write him, why should I consider that what they are writing is how Sam should be written?

I mainly blame Carver. He started the "let's make the characters (and that was both Sam and Dean, in my opinion) behave bizarrely in order to make my plot work" (and not explain why) thing. After he screwed everything up, he eventually righted the ship, but then Dabb came along and sunk it anyway.

3 hours ago, FlickChick said:

It's a sad state of affairs and I wish they had ended the series at the end of S11 with Sam and Cas coming back to the bunker and seeing Dean sitting there, smiling, with Mary. End scene...

Now this we both agree on.

Well, except that I wish season 8A didn't happen and that season 9B had had a major rewrite...*** otherwise I agree.

*** It's a sad state of affairs when one of my favorite arcs that came out of that time period was what eventually became of Metatron. The Mark of Cain storyline was great as well, but it was too wrapped up in the Gadreel storyline - which that arc was a huge miss for me. I think they should have either dumped or rethought the Gadreel storyline and just focused on the mark of Cain storyline.

Edited February 6, 2020 by AwesomO4000

[Harleycat]

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But I should have included in my Sam's character growth that he went back more to "show" in season 6 and 7. Wearing the western stuff to humor Dean in "Frontierland." Giving Dean the giant slinky. I think there was pie involved somewhere. And that's the kind of thing that Carver left by the wayside in season 8 - along with a bunch of other stuff.

So basically, I think Sam used to adapt and find multiple ways to communicate with Dean - rather than just "tell" - but later on in the series as the writers didn't bother to keep Sam as complex a character, that fell by the wayside.

All of the characters got watered down over the years. Cas really has had it far worse then the brothers. He is now just a babysitter instead of a badass soldier of the lord.

I wonder if it is because of the budget that the actors now have to do more telling then showing. There is much more filler dialog, and hence more opportunities for Sam to make an ass of himself.

[7kstar]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Isn't it an actor's job to bring the writers' intent to life, though?

I've seen comments before concerning the disconnect in season10 between what Castiel and Sam are saying - that Dean is in trouble, that he's maybe losing control - and what Dean is actually coming across as. And I've seen some suggest that it may be because Jensen was putting more depth into MoC Dean than what was on the page. But in that case is the story disconnect Jared's and Misha's fault for playing Sam and Castiel as written or is Jensen partially to blame for putting "something else into it" and muddling the story?

I remember when I first started acting, I understood that I wasn't gifted in writing lines but bringing the moments to life, I could do.  So yes, actors jobs are to bring the lines into 3 dimensional reality.  But I've seen some extremely talented actors fail with bad scripts.

I don't think Jensen has muddied the waters with his talent. I think if he had be a lesser actor, we would never have seen Dean as more than a sidekick.  Lame jokes and we wouldn't have had questions.

A strong director, Manners, helped Jared at the beginning.  But when you have actors that can't rise above a bad script, it just makes the script that much worse.  Now could it be that Jared and Misha just follow the directors choices?  Don't know.  But I do know there are actors that can spin a line several ways so the directors have options.  I think Jensen can do this.  He is aware of the directing aspect.

Some parts we will never agree, as you will always defend Sam and well I just don't care that much.  I'm not a huge fan of season 7, and parts of season 4 got old fast.  I will always like Dean more. The MoC was an interesting story and I think it would have been stronger if expanded.  What was wrong with Sam for the umpteen time not so much. Gadreel wasn't interesting until the end.  I didn't care that he killed Kevin.  Was Dean wrong for lying to Sam, of course. 

But if Jared had been a stronger actor, I think we would have pulled/rooted more for him.  Then both characters would have been complex.

But what we have now is cartoon version and I'm not a fan for any of them.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, 7kstar said:

The MoC was an interesting story and I think it would have been stronger if expanded. What was wrong with Sam for the umpteen time not so much. 

I thought that the MoC arc was already pretty strong, but I agree that I would rather have seen even more focus on it, and less Gadreel stuff. I actually liked Sam's potential arc, because it raised some interesting questions in my opinion. For me it was less "what's wrong with Sam" and more "where is the line when it comes to saving someone?" However the writers didn't follow through with any of that in lieu of a Gadreel redemption story.

1 hour ago, 7kstar said:

Was Dean wrong for lying to Sam, of course. 

I agree. And one would think it would be obvious, but unfortunately the writing really didn't support this. The writers had Sam mention Dean's lying once, and it was never mentioned again - by anyone that I recall - and it was never given any resolution at all, despite appearing to be an important part of the set up. Which to me seems kind of ridiculous, but it was what it was.

1 hour ago, 7kstar said:

But if Jared had been a stronger actor, I think we would have pulled/rooted more for him.  Then both characters would have been complex.

Maybe, but I think it was stacked against him. Similar to season 8. If the writers had wanted things to be more sympathetic to Sam they would have written it that way... and focused on Sam. I don't know how he could've have made that "The Purge" speech sympathetic for example.*** The speech focused on all of the wrong things, and the directing followed Dean, not Sam. I think the writing and directing showed what the writers wanted... and sympathy for Sam wasn't it.

*** Jared may also have assumed or been told that Sam would be allowed to be at least partially right in the end also, not realizing his character was being set up for the fall yet again. (Whereas sadly I knew he was being set up right away.)

[Bali]

On 2/5/2020 at 1:08 AM, Aeryn13 said:

However, I do believe Jensen considers it likely a meh ending for the show overall, like for example a lollipop world or something like this.

 

I might get attacked for this, but I've had a stressful morning. Can someone please force the JJ's to dress up with Giant lollipops and sing "We represent the Lollipop Guild"? I have a mental image, but I sincerely could use a real one. Thanking you in advance.

[7kstar]

15 hours ago, 7kstar said:

Gadreel wasn't interesting until the end.  I didn't care that he killed Kevin.  Was Dean wrong for lying to Sam, of course. 

To be clear, I didn't care that he killed Kevin because the show had over used killing off characters I liked.  I don't think of it as good story telling.  So I can find fault with every show runner.  None of them were any where near perfect.  I had complaints about each and every one.  But Dabb has gone to new levels of awful for me.

14 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Maybe, but I think it was stacked against him. Similar to season 8. If the writers had wanted things to be more sympathetic to Sam they would have written it that way... and focused on Sam. I don't know how he could've have made that "The Purge" speech sympathetic for example.*** The speech focused on all of the wrong things, and the directing followed Dean, not Sam. I think the writing and directing showed what the writers wanted... and sympathy for Sam wasn't it.

I can tell you we won't agree on this.  Acting is about tactics, obstacles and objectives.  Understanding this, changes the game in acting.  I've had student actors do amazing stuff once I got them to get it.  I do think Jensen has some of it going on.  Jared is usually one emotion type actor.  He doesn't really do complex.  His best moments have been short and no real words. 

Example playing Lucifer in "The End"  The white suite and the shortness of the scene worked in his favor.  It was chilling and excellent.

To make the Purge speech work, he would have had to play against the words.  But Jared tends to play what is on the page.  He goes for the first emotion that seems normal.  He could have said the words quietly and then built on them.  He could have used an action first.  But I'm not really impressed with Jared's acting abilities.  He has moments.

Now Jensen can go too over the top on comic and sometimes I think he has fallen into a pattern.  I think both boys are playing around too much on set.  I don't think they've fallen into "phoning it in", but they aren't really exploring anymore.  The writing isn't strong enough for that. 

I put in Jensen's negatives so you can see I'm not just slamming Jared.  I like the characters and the richness of the characters should have created so MUCH more.  I don't think they really examine more than one script at a time for everyone involved.  The rich connections have been missing for a long time, IMHO.

[Harleycat]

5 hours ago, 7kstar said:

I like the characters and the richness of the characters should have created so MUCH more.  I don't think they really examine more than one script at a time for everyone involved.  The rich connections have been missing for a long time, IMHO.

I like the characters too. I think the writers don't get what made the show so special in the first place, that it is a show about family and love with characters that have wrestled with and ultimately rejected the idea of a nuclear family. The show was way ahead of its time that way. Having the likely end being that Sam will likely choose parenthood and a semi-suburban life (even if he and Eileen decide to both still be hunters) seems so counter intuitive and frankly insulting to the viewers who need that example on mainstream television of an alternative to that. The show was never about romantic love, but the love between the brothers, even if the show has constantly pointed out that their dependence on that love is unhealthy.

Screw them for thinking that their audience is the Riverdale crowd or that anyone wants to see Sam acting like a spoiled 13 year old or to have Dean be the hot dad who has to parent everyone, because it's ridiculous.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Harleycat

[ahrtee]

7 hours ago, 7kstar said:

To make the Purge speech work, he would have had to play against the words.  But Jared tends to play what is on the page.  He goes for the first emotion that seems normal.  He could have said the words quietly and then built on them.  He could have used an action first.  But I'm not really impressed with Jared's acting abilities.  He has moments.

What I always think of as "playing against the words" is Dean's speech to Chuck when he first learns that Chuck is god.  I think Jensen talked about the advice he'd been given (I think by Kim Manners) about "giving what they expect but not in the way they expect it."  If you just read the words, without the pauses and inflections that Jensen (I assume) added, it would read mostly as angry.  But that's not what Jensen gave us--it was much more layered and emotional and a lot more disturbing IMO because it showed that Dean was feeling his way through this conversation, not just mouthing off because he was angry.  Visualize season 1 smartass and angry Dean giving this speech instead and you can see the difference--and how much Dean has grown.   IMO, of course. 

Quote

 

Dean: Here's the thing, Chuck.  And I mean no disrespect. I'm guessing you came back to help with the Darkness, and that's great.  But you've been gone a  long, long time. And there's so much crap that has gone down on the Earth for thousands of years.  Plagues and wars, slaughters. And you were  writing books, going to fan conventions. Were you even aware, or did you just tune it out?

Chuck: I was aware, Dean.

Dean: But you did nothing. And, again, I'm not trying to piss you off.  I don't want to turn into a pillar of salt.

Chuck: I actually… didn't do that.

Dean: Okay. People pray to you. People build churches for you. They fight wars in your name, and you did nothing.

 

ETA:  To refresh the memories of anyone who doesn't remember the final version as shown (or who just wants to see it again):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROQIxST88fw

 

Edited February 7, 2020 by ahrtee
Add link to scene.

[passatoepresente]

On 2/5/2020 at 6:58 AM, ahrtee said:

I wasn't heroic enough to stop myself from doing bad things  when I was drinking demon blood 

 

How many and what bad things did he do while drinking demon blood? I remember him killing an innocent nurse, and that was really bad, but I don't remember other bad things

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, passatoepresente said:

How many and what bad things did he do while drinking demon blood? I remember him killing an innocent nurse, and that was really bad, but I don't remember other bad things

Seems to me that @AHRTEE was paraphrasing and using a little hyperbole to make a (accurate IMO) point. Drinking demon blood in and of itself was bad. Leaving his fresh-from-Hell brother alone his first night back to go off and do it was bad. Lying about it for months was bad, culminating in choking Dean out and killing the nurse, more bad.  In general, Sam was just not a good guy while on the demon blood, and I don't think there's an argument to be made that he was, regardless of his motivations.

But then, it was really all just Chuck pulling the strings, so the point is moot.

 

 

[trudysmom]

20 hours ago, 7kstar said:

Jared is usually one emotion type actor.  He doesn't really do complex.

Would you say this is a recent thing for Jared, or does it go all the way to the beginning?  Re-watching old (great) episodes, he seemed at time to have some range, but for the most part I always find him to be pretty one-note.  Later seasons, he's so predictable as to be boring.  Or is that, too, the fault in the writing, to keep Sam a certain way?

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, trudysmom said:

Would you say this is a recent thing for Jared, or does it go all the way to the beginning?  Re-watching old (great) episodes, he seemed at time to have some range, but for the most part I always find him to be pretty one-note.  Later seasons, he's so predictable as to be boring.  Or is that, too, the fault in the writing, to keep Sam a certain way?

IMO, something drastic happened between seasons 3 and 4. I don't know if he got acting advice from someone, or they stopped directing him, or what, but his style changed over S4 and became virtually cemented after that.

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, trudysmom said:

Would you say this is a recent thing for Jared, or does it go all the way to the beginning?  Re-watching old (great) episodes, he seemed at time to have some range, but for the most part I always find him to be pretty one-note.  Later seasons, he's so predictable as to be boring.  Or is that, too, the fault in the writing, to keep Sam a certain way?

I think Jared isn't really one-note, but doesn't have great range.  On a color wheel, he's not just primary colors but secondary, too.  The problem is that Jensen is a whole color chart of subtle shades and tones so it makes Jared look more basic.  That's partly the writing but also (as discussed upthread) getting more out of the script than just as written.

 

 

[Lemuria]

4 hours ago, passatoepresente said:

How many and what bad things did he do while drinking demon blood? I remember him killing an innocent nurse, and that was really bad, but I don't remember other bad things

Let's not forget that he freed Lucifer while drinking demon blood and following blindly in the wake of his demon BFF and drug dealer, Ruby.  Or that, in When the Levee Breaks and while he still thought he would be proven absolutely right about what he'd done all season 4 (and even before Dean returned) as well as being proven to be the stronger, smarter, superior Winchester, he took complete ownership of everything he'd done, including the monstrous stuff (only, of course, to repudiate it all in Fallen Idols and blame Dean for Sam's listening to Ruby and only Ruby).

The nurse situation to me was really, really bad, but it was even worse in season 5:  I assumed that season 4 was Sam hitting rock bottom, because of his ego and his pride and his need to feel powerful, and that we would see a really good redemption arc.  Something that, IMO, we didn't get.

It should have started with Sam acknowledging the nurse in some way.  I thought for sure that he would be filled with remorse over it--possibly recognizing that, in addition to Ruby's urging, he made the decision to drain her blood because he was furious at what he thought was Dean's phone message--and that we would see something about it, maybe having Sam going to see the nurse's family from a distance.  Maybe telling Dean what had happened.

But there was never another word about it.  It apparently didn't bother Sam enough for him to appear to give a darn (or stronger word).  The rest of the year didn't get much better.  Sam, IMO, was basically handed redemption, without having to really earn it.

Yep, I know he jumped into Hell with Lucifer and it's often claimed that he made this great sacrifice for the world.  I don't consider it that:  A sacrifice to me is something you make for others when you have no obligation or responsibility to do it.  Sam blew up the world.  Countless numbers died because of it and many others, like the people in 99 Problems damned themselves to Hell because of the situation Sam created.  (Those people, BTW, are never getting out of Hell, are they?)

So, it wasn't a sacrifice, it was reparations.  It was cleaning up his mess.  It was something that Sam owed the world.

Just MO.  YMMV.

[7kstar]

1 hour ago, trudysmom said:

Would you say this is a recent thing for Jared, or does it go all the way to the beginning?  Re-watching old (great) episodes, he seemed at time to have some range, but for the most part I always find him to be pretty one-note.  Later seasons, he's so predictable as to be boring.  Or is that, too, the fault in the writing, to keep Sam a certain way?

I would say it is from his training.  He is in his head.  He thinks about how he should react.  You can play anger many ways.  But does he?

I'm an instinct director.  It works for stage but not sure how well it would work for film.  Jensen uses his instincts.  When you truly listen and react with only what you know right now, it can be very real and add depth.

Jared most likely reads the script, sees the beats and thinks about his reactions.  This leads into, for example, this part should be sad.  You can do that but most people would try to pretend they weren't sad.  Show anything other than that.  Jared has improved over the years but he excels in certain reactions.  Lately for me he's gotten kind of worse.  The writing hasn't helped.    Sam's character has been stuck for a long time.  So I would say he was really struggling at the beginning and that struggle made it more interesting.  Now he doesn't worry about it, just does what he has been doing.

Also he reads ahead.  That will cause some issues that he has to pretend he doesn't know something but he does.  So staying in the moment, or the now may not be working as well.  Jensen says he doesn't like to read ahead.  This keeps him in the dark so it would be easier to stay in the now.  Not sure if that helps AT all.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

I think Jared isn't really one-note, but doesn't have great range.  On a color wheel, he's not just primary colors but secondary, too.  The problem is that Jensen is a whole color chart of subtle shades and tones so it makes Jared look more basic.  That's partly the writing but also (as discussed upthread) getting more out of the script than just as written.

IA that this example really puts it in perspective.  The writing doesn't really go anywhere.  So Jared isn't compelled to explore more.  I think he needs stronger direction.  Since they goof around, play pranks how serious can they really be about pushing themselves to new heights?  Neither is just going through the motions but I'm not sure how excited they are when they get a script.  The hunger and danger of losing the show, is gone.

Every actor has to find the method or methods that work for them.  Jensen is pushing to learn new things.  Directing, creating music, singing lead.  That drive to explore I think also helps with his acting.

[Castiels Cat]

On 2/5/2020 at 10:14 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

Isn't it an actor's job to bring the writers' intent to life, though?

I've seen comments before concerning the disconnect in season10 between what Castiel and Sam are saying - that Dean is in trouble, that he's maybe losing control - and what Dean is actually coming across as. And I've seen some suggest that it may be because Jensen was putting more depth into MoC Dean than what was on the page. But in that case is the story disconnect Jared's and Misha's fault for playing Sam and Castiel as written or is Jensen partially to blame for putting "something else into it" and muddling the story?

I think an argument can be made for both. It's maybe sometimes hard for the viewer to gauge "writer intent" when the actors - either or both - are potentially playing things that aren't intended.

It's difficult for me to believe that the writers are trying to do Sam favors when the storylines so often make him do stupid things. No amount of "propping," as you call it, can make up for the stuff they make Sam - and generally only Sam (or sometimes Castiel) - do.

I agree with @Harleycat . The unbalance in recent seasons is jarring, and it makes for frustrating viewing.

But that's their fault. The writers should know everything about the characters they are writing for. Otherwise it's not really Supernatural, but just some random genre show. And if they don't know much about Sam anyway and don't know how to write him, why should I consider that what they are writing is how Sam should be written?

I mainly blame Carver. He started the "let's make the characters (and that was both Sam and Dean, in my opinion) behave bizarrely in order to make my plot work" (and not explain why) thing. After he screwed everything up, he eventually righted the ship, but then Dabb came along and sunk it anyway.

Now this we both agree on.

Well, except that I wish season 8A didn't happen and that season 9B had had a major rewrite...*** otherwise I agree.

*** It's a sad state of affairs when one of my favorite arcs that came out of that time period was what eventually became of Metatron. The Mark of Cain storyline was great as well, but it was too wrapped up in the Gadreel storyline - which that arc was a huge miss for me. I think they should have either dumped or rethought the Gadreel storyline and just focused on the mark of Cain storyline.

Because the real storyline was that Sam was out of control and going dark all season. They were running parallel storylines between Sam and Dean. Sam was behaving more like a demon than demon Dean and Sam was more out of control than MoC Dean. Sam risked everyone and everything and used the BotD and sanctioned black magic with a blood sacrifice and bargained with Rowena giving her access to two powerful grimoire and nearly got both Dean and Cas killed and himself killed. Charlie died.

 

[gonzosgirrl]

On 2/6/2020 at 2:46 AM, PinkChicken said:

And I do think we have more tell partly because of the budget, and partly because the writers are just phoning in easy exposition. But yeah the writing these days is hardly worth commenting on. Its bad all round, I might think Jensen is just better at spinning it (imo of course) but there’s only so much they can do with what they’re given these days.

I don't think it's so much budget as a lack of vision on the part of the showrunner. I don't think they had a huge budget in the early days, but the show had a look and a feel that, IMO, transcended the writing. I saw this post the other day (and bless the Twitter friend who found it for me again).

This didn't take great writing, or even great acting. It took a showrunner with a cohesive vision of how gritty, scary, effective storytelling should look. A good 'chief' would get this out of his writers, directors and actors. Dabb has done exactly none of that.

[trudysmom]

Very interesting.  If Dabb's intent was/is to make Jensen look bad and be miserable, he isn't succeeding.  Jensen  takes scraps and turns it into a banquet.  I wish the best for Jared with his new show, I probably won't watch, but who knows.  I hope we don't see Sam Winchester in a stetson playing at being a bad-ass Ranger, but I have a feeling that's what I will see, whether it's meant to be that way or not.  I hope he has better writers, directors, etc.  If not, it's doomed.  

I have to say, I've really enjoyed a re-watch of old episodes that I have skipped over in the past.  Those writers really had some imagination, for both brothers, conflicts and all.

Edited February 8, 2020 by trudysmom
To make sense.

[Myrelle]

5 hours ago, trudysmom said:

I have to say, I've really enjoyed a re-watch of old episodes that I have skipped over in the past.  Those writers really had some imagination, for both brothers, conflicts and all.

It's  strange. 

They restarted the series again on TNT after taking us to mid S5-something I can't recall happening before and I've been able to re-watch every episode since then and I have to say that these early episodes really appear to be superior in so many ways other than the writing.

The wonderfully subtle musical cues and the amazing cinematography are most notable to me in this regard. 

And the familial stuff was just so, SO! promising from the writing standpoint back then.

I guess for me one of the most disappointing aspects of the show as we wind down is that, IMO, they didn't really do the core familial relationships justice through the writing in that there were imbalances and blatant inattention to some of the biggest reasons for many of the numerous dysfunctions-and some of them were even perpetuated via the writing w/o their even being alluded to as extremely problematic, in any way.

"Family" is everything and more important than "anything" was portrayed and explored in a very superficial way, IMO and AFAIC, because the parentification of Dean-one of the biggest problems within the Winchester family unit-was never really explored in a truly in-depth manner and it was something that I was so hoping to see when I first became a fan of the show. 

That Dean's journey might end w/o even an acknowledgment of how deeply the parentification affected him will always seem like a failure on the part of the writing of this show for me, and that's sad, but Jensen's portrayal of what it did to Dean and how deeply it affected his character will never be lost on me, especially when I watch these early episodes.

Dean will always be the tragic hero of this show for me and after watching the show from the beginning again, I'm now more positive than ever that even Dabb's pettiness in these last seasons will never change or affect that feeling for me-not in the least. 

Indeed, I think I feel it moreso now, and in all honesty.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Myrelle
Revision

[AwesomO4000]

15 hours ago, Lemuria said:

Sam, IMO, was basically handed redemption, without having to really earn it.

Yep, I know he jumped into Hell with Lucifer and it's often claimed that he made this great sacrifice for the world.  I don't consider it that:  A sacrifice to me is something you make for others when you have no obligation or responsibility to do it.  Sam blew up the world.  Countless numbers died because of it and many others, like the people in 99 Problems damned themselves to Hell because of the situation Sam created.  (Those people, BTW, are never getting out of Hell, are they?)

So, it wasn't a sacrifice, it was reparations.  It was cleaning up his mess.  It was something that Sam owed the world.

I'm not sure that I get your point here. While yes, the writers likely should have addressed the nurse, so fair point on that one, Sam himself didn't call himself a hero or say that he was being "redeemed" or making a sacrifice in season 5, so reparations was indeed what it was. Sam specifically said that he let Lucifer out, so he had to be the one to put him back in. That's reparations not anything else.

Of course, in my opinion, the fact that Sam caused all of those problems was partially bad luck or whatever you want to call it, because when Sam makes a mistake or a bad judgement call, generally really bad things happen. Ditto Castiel later on (not in season 4, since Castiel made all sorts of bad decisions with zero repercussions in season 4.) So that was partially the reason Sam had to make reparations.

On this show, the consequences don't always parallel the action. It's the luck of the draw - or the writers' whims - as to how bad the consequences are going to be.

15 hours ago, Lemuria said:

(only, of course, to repudiate it all in Fallen Idols and blame Dean for Sam's listening to Ruby and only Ruby).

That isn't what Sam did or said at all. The dialogue wasn't the best, but it didn't have Sam blame Dean for listening to Ruby. It even explicitly said otherwise. At the worst it suggested that Dean was a bit bossy... but so what? Older siblings are often a bit more bossy. So Sam is saying what many younger siblings are thinking. (And I'm saying this as an older sibling who was - oh, the horrors - sometimes bossy with my younger sister.)

I truly don't understand the huge emphasis put on this one episode (there were about 17 other episodes after this in the season that were different in tone and focus) or what the dialogue supposedly said that it actually didn't say.

14 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Because the real storyline was that Sam was out of control and going dark all season. They were running parallel storylines between Sam and Dean. Sam was behaving more like a demon than demon Dean and Sam was more out of control than MoC Dean. Sam risked everyone and everything and used the BotD and sanctioned black magic with a blood sacrifice and bargained with Rowena giving her access to two powerful grimoire and nearly got both Dean and Cas killed and himself killed. Charlie died.

If these were parallel storylines, then doesn't that mean that Dean was supposedly going dark also... and if so, then I think my original point still stands. (i.e. that maybe Jensen was playing Dean as more together than the writers wanted him to appear.)

And why was Sam supposedly so much more out of control than MoC Dean? Was Dean in control of himself when he made the decision to take on the mark of Cain? And if he was, then wasn't his decision just as much risking potential repercussions as Sam's?

As I see it, while taking on the mark of Cain, Dean was doing most of the same things you accuse Sam of doing - just a bit differently. Dean risked everyone and everything by taking on a power for which he had no idea what the consequences would be. He knew what Cain did with that power, because he was told, so he knew how dangerous it was. He knew the mark was a dark power that he got from a demon (how is that better than a dark spell?). He killed / sacrificed demons in order to be worthy of that dark power. He bargained with Cain to get it. He worked with Crowley - a demon - to get it. In my opinion, Dean was acting very recklessly when he agreed to take on the mark and making very questionable judgement calls.

And if Sam was supposedly partially responsible for Charlie's death, how was Dean not partially responsible for Tara the hunter's death? The main reason (maybe the only reason) Tara was killed - tortuously by having her skin peeled off - was because Crowley and Dean were talking about going to get the blade out in the open where other demons could hear. A demon then followed Dean and Crowley right to Tara after hearing that she knew something about the blade. Then Dean and Crowley had Tara uncover and break her demon trap and help them find where the blade (supposedly) was - by doing a spell... that required an ingredient gotten by a demon. I doubt that spell - since it found a dark power object - was entirely "good." And then demons came in and got Tara to torture her for information about the blade and kill her. Crowley knew the demons were following him, but Dean trusted him to work with.

Why is that any more excusable than what happened to Charlie? It actually seems like more of a direct cause and action to me than Charlie's death which could have been prevented if Charlie had just stayed under Castiel's protection.

Oh, and Despite finding out about Tara and how Crowley knew, Dean still told Crowley where the blade was, giving a demon access to a potentially powerful weapon.

It seems to me the stories had more parallels than not, and that both brothers exhibited reckless behavior and bad judgement that involved dark powers and contributed to someone getting killed. Your miles may vary.

Edited February 8, 2020 by AwesomO4000

[hypnotoad]

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I have to say that these early episodes really appear to be superior in so many ways other than the writing.

Yes they are far far superior in every single way. I saw the season 1 episodes on TNT and the difference is just startling and we are talking about a season that isn't the strongest of the early seasons! And sure when a show is on for as long as this one, things do tend to fall off but lawd the fall has been steep.

The brothers didn't get along perfectly way back when and that was okay but I still felt they loved each other. Now I'm not even sure if they like each other and they often feel less like brothers and more like high school buddies who haven't seen each other in many years.

I think Jensen is a much better actor but I have liked Jared since his Gilmore days - I've always appreciated their differences as actors and their chemistry.

For me the biggest problem with the show has been the angels, God, heaven, apocalypse, one brother sacrifices himself for the World ... rinse and repeat cycle we have been on for.Ever. I find the one off monster episodes far more interesting and preferred the focus on 'the family business, killing things.' But I also preferred the one off stuff on the X-Files too.

[DeeDee79]

10 minutes ago, hypnotoad said:

For me the biggest problem with the show has been the angels, God, heaven, apocalypse, one brother sacrifices himself for the World ... rinse and repeat cycle we have been on for.Ever. I find the one off monster episodes far more interesting and preferred the focus on 'the family business, killing things.' But I also preferred the one off stuff on the X-Files too.

I agree. Heaven and the constant wars between Castiel and every angel they encounter has really dragged out way longer than needed. MOTW episodes on SPN are few and far between and too often they are shoehorned into a larger story about angels and Heaven or Jack. I'm sure that there are more urban legends that they could have used for interesting cases for the Winchesters.

I also have the same feelings as you about The X-Files. The mythology surrounding the Smoking Man, his cronies and the disappearance of Mulder's sister became extremely confusing during the later seasons. The continuation of these stories on the revival were even more hard to follow.

[Casseiopeia]

9 hours ago, hypnotoad said:

The brothers didn't get along perfectly way back when and that was okay but I still felt they loved each other.

[bethy]

Dead in the Water was on the other day and the scene where Dean is talking to Lucas about trying to be brave while Sam watches from the doorway is just, guh. Jared did such a nice job of showing Sam taking in something he didn’t know about his brother and start to process it before kind of shaking himself and refocusing on the case. It was those kinds of moments that really drew me in and hooked me on the brothers. I miss those days.

[hypnotoad]

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I'm sure that there are more urban legends that they could have used for interesting cases for the Winchesters.

Absolutely agree. I think the X-Files did a much better job with the distribution between MOTW and mythology episodes.

I also feel like the writers have gotten either really lazy about pay-offs for story lines or just don't care. I mean look at Dean. Way back he made the deal for Sam's life and that storyline led somewhere. His coming death hung over that whole season. What happened with the Michael thing? Jensen got to wear some snazzy clothes for one or two episodes and ... nothing. What was the point? Sam's demon blood drinking led somewhere.

And honestly what was the point of bringing Mary back? The writers did absolutely nothing with it. She didn't seem all that interested in her sons and then boom she's dead again.

I think both Sam and Dean have been shoved under the bus a lot by these writers - especially the last couple of seasons where Jack has taken over everything.

Dean: the Amara thing really was mostly pointless, the Mark of Cain at least lasted more than 2 episodes but still the writers didn't really explore it, Demon Dean was even shorter than Michael Dean and of course the Michael Dean fail.

Sam: Dean disappears and ends up in purgatory and Sam has no idea what happened or where his brother is and he decides to do ... nothing? Come on. Oy that was bad bad bad. Even soulless Sam didn't last that long and was fixed fairly easily like the angel in Sam thing.

I don't know but I think more MOTW and far less angel/apocalypse nonsense may have helped. But then again I'm not sure even that would save Dappernatural or Jack-natural.

[ahrtee]

14 minutes ago, hypnotoad said:

I don't know but I think more MOTW and far less angel/apocalypse nonsense may have helped. But then again I'm not sure even that would save Dappernatural or Jack-natural.

Nothing would (or will) save Dabbernatural once Jack showed up and was made into the one and only star of the show, with the others just there to prop him up or highlight his angst/problems/journey.  But more MOTW in the years leading up to it would at least have been more enjoyable, and maybe more even in terms of who got to be hero in turns.

IA with whoever mentioned earlier that Cas has long outlived his prime.  I think he would have been best (and better remembered) if he and all the angels (and even most of the bigshot demons) had disappeared after season 5, when the Apocalypse was averted and Cas went upstairs to be the "new sheriff."  He could have gotten heaven running smoothly and pulled Sam up from the Cage.  If TPTB really wanted him around, he could keep an eye on the boys, popping down to visit/pull a deus ex machina save occasionally, just not all the time.  

Then we wouldn't have had to deal with all the angel/demon bullshit and the boys could have gotten back to hunting as usual, a little angstier because of everything they'd been through, but not constant weight-of-the-world on their shoulders.

Just a dream. *sigh*

 

[ukgirl71]

Genuinely curious - what ways do you all think the show could have successfully juggled J2’s reduced schedule without bringing in Jack?

[Casseiopeia]

Just now, ukgirl71 said:

Genuinely curious - what ways do you all think the show could have successfully juggled J2’s reduced schedule without bringing in Jack?

Give Misha more to do? Wasn't that why he stayed with the show for as long as he did? Mark Shepard could have had some back story episodes. Some "buddy" episodes with Misha and Mark. There were plenty of other actors but Dabb/Singer/BuckLeming wanted to appeal to the Riverdale audience. 

I will never understand why TPTB  wanted to emulate shows that were less popular than the one they were already producing.

[hypnotoad]

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Genuinely curious - what ways do you all think the show could have successfully juggled J2’s reduced schedule without bringing in Jack?

I don't have an issue with Jack in general but the use of the character has been ridiculous. Look at last season (sorry I haven't started this season yet): Jack is sick, Jack is dead, Jack is back, Jack is the most powerful power in the universe. I mean nearly everything revolved around Jack.

J2's have a reduced schedule? Then why not an episode or 2 part episode focusing on Jody and Donna? Give Castiel something to do besides chase Jack around? There are ways to give J2 a reduced schedule and still leave them as the leads of the show.