“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[ILoveReading]

I really loved Raelle Tucker. 

Last I saw she was writing for Jessica Jones.

Jessica Jones is one of my favorite shows.  She's very talented.

[ILoveReading]

Spoiler

Berens just threw Dean under the bus with that promo. 

[Lastcall]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

Ben Edlund

Just sayin, Edlund offered to write a script next year.

[DeeDee79]

12 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

Just sayin, Edlund offered to write a script next year.

I just looked through his SPN writing credits on IMDB and saw that he wrote Nightshifter. Hollywood Babylon, Monster Movie and My Bloody Valentine which are some of my favorite SPN eps. Though he also wrote The French Mistake which I'm not crazy about...

Edited April 5, 2019 by DeeDee79

[SueB]

In order:

1) Robbie Thompson.  

2) Ben Edlund

3) Bobo Berens (if he’s engaged)

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So who would you say is consistently the best writer the show has had?

Mine in order:

1) Ben Edlund

2) Robbie Thompson

3) Sera Gamble ***

*** While I agree that John Shiban and/or Raelle Tucker could also go here, they both left before the show got "messy." I will understand if others don't agree, but I just think that the writing seemed a little easier back then before we got angels and big epic storylines. I therefore gave the spot to Sera who continued to make episodes I liked quality-wise (with a few missteps) even into the messier years.  And she gave us Death, so big points from me for that. And Rufus - more points for that. And Zachariah. And Gordon. And Original Michael ...and well you get the idea.

[ster1]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm becoming more and more convinced its Jensen that pulled the plug. 

There is no way the writing for Dean since that trash ep 12 isn't personal.

Sam the smart, brave, wise, sage

Dean, the dumb mouth breathing idiot. 

No wonder Jensen wants creative control. 

It's become a regular pattern now. Mary's proud of Sam and calls him a good man. Sam's memorized the entire Bible in ancient Hebrew. He knows the cure for thallium poisoning off the top of his head. Jack looks to him as the deciding vote in the Nick situation. He's obviously someone his whole family respects.

Dean? Dude can't even figure out a child's game. He has to ask Sam to hack into the cameras, even though he's done it himself.  Dean no longer remembers any lore outside of pop culture. But hey, if there's anyone to torture, he's the guy.  Dean's own mother couldn't find one nice thing to say about him before she kicked the mortal coil.

I hope Jensen helps put a stop to this nonsense. If the writers want to praise Sam, that's fine. But it's only fair that they treat Dean with that same regard, not this weekly put-down fest. It got old a long time ago. 

[PAForrest]

11 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So who would you say is consistently the best writer the show has had?

I don't think any of them are entirely consistent - everyone has produced a stinker or two or more, I think. Ben Edlund was awesome, for instance, until Sera took over and he wanted gone, and his last few episodes reflected his disengagement and itching to move on by being awful.

But in general, and in no particular order:

Ben Edlund

Robbie Thompson

Raelle Tucker

John Shiban

Eric Kripke (when he took the whole into account and wasn't on a bitchy tear that week)

Sera Gamble (before her short and ill-fated stint as showrunner)

Jeremy Carver (before he was the showrunner)

Even Dabb, before he was showrunner and when writing WITH Loflin, produced some decent scripts - not always, there are ones I loathe like ASS.  But Dabb definitely needed Loflin to balance him out.

Edited April 5, 2019 by PAForrest

[Myrelle]

7 hours ago, ster1 said:

It's become a regular pattern now. Mary's proud of Sam and calls him a good man. Sam's memorized the entire Bible in ancient Hebrew. He knows the cure for thallium poisoning off the top of his head. Jack looks to him as the deciding vote in the Nick situation. He's obviously someone his whole family respects.

Dean? Dude can't even figure out a child's game. He has to ask Sam to hack into the cameras, even though he's done it himself.  Dean no longer remembers any lore outside of pop culture. But hey, if there's anyone to torture, he's the guy.  Dean's own mother couldn't find one nice thing to say about him before she kicked the mortal coil.

I hope Jensen helps put a stop to this nonsense. If the writers want to praise Sam, that's fine. But it's only fair that they treat Dean with that same regard, not this weekly put-down fest. It got old a long time ago. 

Thanks for saying all of this for me, too.

The differences between what Mother MarySue says to Dean and what she says to Sam say it all for me.

And yup, I felt the same way about that promo as soon as I heard that one line, ILoveReading.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Myrelle
Revision

[gonzosgirrl]

8 hours ago, ster1 said:

He knows the cure for thallium poisoning off the top of his head.

Not gonna lie, I thought he said valium and was all WTF? Figured maybe they considered it a poison since they've been using it to slowly kill Dean for three seasons now.

[ILoveReading]

They've also now officially stripped the leader role from Dean again.

Jack checks with Sam to be the deciding vote and

Spoiler

we were told about a spoiler from where Sam, Dean are having an intense conversation and Jack turns to check with Sam. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Basically bad things happened since once again people didn't listen to Dean.  He should stop wasting his breath, tell every one his family to 'f- off, and clean up their own mess' and walk away.  We already know that no on would really miss him.

Oh, they would miss him alright. Because ultimately, without Dean, they don`t have a dumbboard to explain things to or someone to lecture on how they do feelings wrong or a blame guy who is at fault for whatever bad decision du jour. 

Well, okay, Mary wouldn`t miss him at all because she couldn`t care less. Seriously, two freaking Seasons and despite her horribleness, twice she found the time to validate Sam but not a single one compliment to Dean. Not ONCE. In the latest episode, there was the perfect set-up, but she totally accepts him denigrating himself and smiles to it because it made her look better or at least him look as bad as her. Screw her and the writers she rode in on.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Oh, they would miss him alright. Because ultimately, without Dean, they don`t have a dumbboard to explain things to or someone to lecture on how they do feelings wrong or a blame guy who is at fault for whatever bad decision du jour. 

Well, okay, Mary wouldn`t miss him at all because she couldn`t care less. Seriously, two freaking Seasons and despite her horribleness, twice she found the time to validate Sam but not a single one compliment to Dean. Not ONCE. In the latest episode, there was the perfect set-up, but she totally accepts him denigrating himself and smiles to it because it made her look better or at least him look as bad as her. Screw her and the writers she rode in on.

True, they'd also have no one to blame their screw ups on. 

But Sam could grow another neatly trimmed grief beard, and he and Cas would have that breathing room they so desperately need.

But i'm sure once Dean got back he's be called a weak quitter again for running away and Cas would beat him up again.

It's one wonder Jensen (and Jared) want some creative control over the mess this show has become.

[Myrelle]

I think that at this point I would jump for joy if Jensen flat out told us that he had decided to leave the show after he read the first script of the season 

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

I think that at this point I would jump for joy if Jensen flat out told us that he had decided to leave the show after he read the first script of the season 

Or we found out he was the blind item.*

But then I would cry over the fact that he agreed to stay one more year.

*Although I do think the blind item was Stephen Amell.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Oh, they would miss him alright. Because ultimately, without Dean, they don`t have a dumbboard to explain things to or someone to lecture on how they do feelings wrong or a blame guy who is at fault for whatever bad decision du jour. 

Well, okay, Mary wouldn`t miss him at all because she couldn`t care less. Seriously, two freaking Seasons and despite her horribleness, twice she found the time to validate Sam but not a single one compliment to Dean. Not ONCE. In the latest episode, there was the perfect set-up, but she totally accepts him denigrating himself and smiles to it because it made her look better or at least him look as bad as her. Screw her and the writers she rode in on.

I've decided that Mary is only saying those things to Sam out if her own guilt for the deal. I don't think he has the capacity to actually empathize with anyone. As long as she can keep convincing herself that Sam I a good man then he won't be tainted after all. She can't say anything to Dean because she doesn't consider what her actions did to him. Ever since she returned it's all about Sam which MO was always the intention from Dabb perspective.

I think Dabb thinks the audience only wants to see Dean and Mary fuss and fawn over Sam and Jack is the Sam surrogate IMO.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I saw the promo and just figured it comes out in a moment of frustration. I didn't see it as any big deal. Hhhmmm.

That's because you are a fan of the character in and of himself. The people who only see him as an extension of Sam, and worse, of Cas are losing their shit over it. It's funny that you'd think being a part of two such ardent ships, he'd get twice the love. Instead he gets twice the hate and generally doesn't even exist when he's not part of the chosen ship. It's funny that in those same ships, it doesn't matter what either of them do to Dean - they only mean well and are teaching him valuable life/love lessons. (And if that isn't a classic abusive relationship justification, I don't know what is).

Spoiler

For context, this is regarding Dean telling Cas he is 'dead to him' in the preview for 14x18

[BabySpinach]

I think I've figured out the broad strokes of what's been wrong with the depiction of the leads: Dean's Show has been let down by his Tell, and Sam's Tell has been let down by his Show.

Sam:

- 14.01 is called Chief, universally deferred to without explanation, yet makes terrible judgement call to bring Jack and Maggie along that is never acknowledged as such

- 14.05 praised by Mary, apologized to by Bobby, given credit by Dean for Maggie's rescue, doesn't do anything during the episode to earn any of this

- 14.12 says shit like "We're the guys who save the world," but it's supposed to be taken as genuinely inspiring and badass

- 14.17 gets beaten up and nearly killed by fucking NICK, of all people, apparently showing him to be incompetent (which I'm sure is not the intention)

- his many gift-wrapped Dean kills, scenes, and storylines that are invariably lamer copies of the original

- his plethora of head wounds and knock-outs that seriously undermine his supposed status as a fearsome hunter

Dean:

- 14.03 isn't particularly unhinged or unstable, but Jody and Sam are suddenly pearl-clutching over him; Kaia outright calls him a weak bully and her words are allowed to stand

- 14.04 the fact that he saved the world by killing Lucifer is not mentioned; instead, it's only Sam and Jack that he saved

- 14.05 objectively performs better on the hunt than Sam does, but never gets verbal acknowledgement for it and gives Sam credit instead; his long past as a natural leader isn't brought up at all

- 14.08 stated to be "guilty" over how he initially treated Jack, but this is not shown in their interactions

- 14.10 one of the few instances of characters actually verbalizing a positive and specific thing about Dean (woo...)

- 14.12 doesn't do anything wrong and is the most level-headed out of everyone, but Sam and Cas frame him as recklessly suicidal and no one contradicts them (it's left open to interpretation, at least?)

- 14.15 his archangel trauma/guilt is completely forgotten about in favor of Sam angst, and Jensen isn't playing outside of the script this time

- 14.17 Mary still hasn't said a single nice thing about Dean, all while she's showered Sam with specific and unconditional praise

Casual viewers tend to take the Tell at face value and run with it, while Show provides a stronger basis of argument for more hardcore fans. 

But both the brothers have been regressed to their broader stereotypes and lost a lot of nuance. Both of their storylines for this season (Leader Sam and Michael!Dean) were axed in 14.14 and have apparently amounted to absolutely nothing. I'm a Dean fan, so I'm naturally going to focus on Dean's mistreatment, but there's plenty for both Sam fans and Dean fans to be mad about. It's just that the reasons are kind of inverse to each other. What a shitty way to treat the two original lead characters.

And Cas is basically a non-entity at this point. The most significant thing he's done all season is fling himself upon the sacrificial altar of St. Nougat the Irresistible, the most important and perfect little marshmallow in the entire universe.

I feel no small amount of schadenfreude at the thought of Dabb trying so hard to push Nougatnatural only to have the original leads he so gleefully neglected end up pulling the plug. Suck it.

[gonzosgirrl]

From Bitter Spoilers.

Spoiler

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

And you know Sam will be the kind-hearted friend who defends poor Cas to make Dean look even meaner. 

I had accepted that the rest of the Season would be completely boring Nougatnatural with Nickifer-obsession and that Dean was thrown to the side. I had even accepted that we were only gonna get dumb comedy relief non-hunter Dean for the most part. But that on top of it they would be throwing in "lets make him be hated", that I did not see. But apparently Berens is like "hold my beer". 

Since the press release for the Finale says the brothers and Cas do bla bla bla together, I`m sure that "tiff" will be resolved in either episode 18 or 19 with Dean apologizing to poor little Cas.    

Mais oui. They just established again and some more that Dean is closed off and hard, just like Mommy Dearest, so of course he needs to learn another very special lesson from his saintly brother and poor, put upon little angel. Duh.

My only solace is that these assclowns wrote themselves right out of a job.

[DeeDee79]

6 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

I feel no small amount of schadenfreude at the thought of Dabb trying so hard to push Nougatnatural only to have the original leads he so gleefully neglected end up pulling the plug. Suck it.

Co-sign this 100%!

[ILoveReading]

From @Lunula if the ep 17 thread.

Quote

Not to mention another fake death at this point in the show is beyond ridiculous. I find it disrespectful to the fans (and to Jared) who've stuck it out for 14 years and are facing the end in one more season. It...cheapens...the show and its legacy

Agree. This, IMO, is just another way the writers have gotten lazy.  They seem to think "brother moment" is only defined as something bad happening to Sam, either physically or mentally and Dean fussing over him. 

Its like they think this is the only way to show a connection.

If I had to pick on ep that demonstrated Sam and Deans' strength as a team it would be The Unusual Suspects.   Sam and Dean didn't spend much time together that ep.  I never go the impression they worked out that story before hand but they were truly on the same page the entire ep.  But for some reason that doesn't showcase their bond, Sam has to die and Dean has to cry. 

For me, a good example of a brother moment that I really liked was so small it was blink and you'll miss it.  In Mommie Dearest when Sam and Dean are driving the brothers and the older puts his arm over the youngest.  Sam and Dean just look at each other. 

Instantly  as a view I know they exactly what Sam and Dean were thinking and feeling and that was something that took place in the back of impala many times growing up.

I think the last time I truly enjoyed a BM (perfect name ) was in Plucky PennyWhistle when you had two brother teasing each other.  Now if just feels so forced and it feels like the writers are looking for twitter/tumblr squees rather than writing something that feels organic and natural.

[ahrtee]

Re: The discussion in Game Night about how Nick got some grace (among other WTF moments in SPN history):

It may just be me (with my own experience as a reader, writer and editor) but IMO any time the reader/viewer has to come up with their own explanation of why something happened, using the words "maybe" "could have" or "I see no reason why they shouldn't have," instead of seeing (or even remembering) a specific path leading to it, that's bad writing.  

There's a difference between putting together pieces that were scattered throughout the story that suddenly make sense (think: the Croatoan SL, eg) and having to turn yourself inside out to try to come up with a reason that *might* make sense.  I don't think we should give the writers credit where none is due.  

[FlickChick]

These previous two posts only drive home what has become of this show, period. These writers are apparently a bunch of amateurs who most likely have not watched previous episodes, who don't care/understand the characteristics of our main characters, who have no leader in the writers' room, have their own "pets" or preferences when it comes to characters, and frankly IMO have no understanding of the finer points of storytelling. So they regurgitate ideas/scenes/story-lines/and even actions of one character and give it to another and call it writing. IT IS NOT!!! Which really makes me sad because these are the people (as far as we know) who are going to be putting the final season of Supernatural together. And honestly, I don't trust a single one to do it properly. 

 

[tessathereaper]

Quote

Yes I saw that. . Could be an attempt not to give away the big twist. He seemed kind of funny about it imo. Jokey.

I don't feel it the way I felt Dean saying yes to Michael last season. It's just the entire fight sequence felt off just the way Michael leaving Dean felt off and the entire set up in the Spear felt off.  He has fooled jack before. Only Dean has proven to be his match.i would be surprised if this was not the finale twist. Michael needed nephilim grace to boost his power to control Dean and 3rd times the charm. It would be a devastating finale and would explain why Dean is not blood and bone as well as why Michael inexplicably didn't bother to incapacitate Jack.

There is no analysis to support this per se except the Monumental follow through of AT and Nihilism as well as the inevitable really bad payout that has to come from Dean's tragic, reckless decision to say yes to Michael to psychopathic murderous world burning Michael in order to save Sam and Jack and kill the Lucifer thorn in Sam's side. It was personal. That's a ton of literary baggage to toss.

And as I say I  think the writing was in place for Jack to take Dean's trauma and settle his score with Michael so that this was not a sudden course correction either. I was expecting it to happen although not quite that soon I must admit. They are deftly mining season 6 character arcs and themes despite foregoing the film noir.

Just what I think. If Lucifer is back then so will be Michael. I rewatched Nihilism's final scene after Rewatching Ouroboros and Billie's words just do not fit Cage Michael. 

Shrugs. The finale airs soon enough.

I don't think it was reckless of Dean to say yes to Michael, it was literally the only choice in the moment.  There were no good choices and that was the best of the bad choices.  Lucifer was going to win and Lucifer was planning on "burning the world" right then and there if he won.  Dean didn't only save Sam and Jack, he saved the world, no matter how much the show wants to gaslight us to forget it(the show is really good or rather bad at trying to gaslight the audience, can't blame that one on just Dabb, it's been going that for years probably since at least season 5)

I don't think it was a jokey comment.  I also don't think the show would be ending on Season 15 if they hadn't screwed up the Michael storyline the way they have, IMO that had a direct affect on Jensen's decision to call it quits(and issues on Jared's side storywise too that probably made him agree).   I mean who knows maybe that was part of the deal to have a full Season 15, fix this Michael storyline so Jensen gets more time with it before the end, but I certainly don't think that was the original plan.  I think Dabb was on route to full NougatNatural: Leads? We Don't Need No Stinkin' Leads, and shove Dean and Sam to leads in name only and virtually supporting characters in their own show.

I do not think it makes sense for Jack to come in to do it, Dean's history with Michael, any Michael doesn't matter which one, is longer than Jack's.  I also don't see how Jack is taking "Dean's trauma", it's Dean's or it should be.  No one should be taking it.

I agree it wasn't a sudden course correction for Jack to kill Michael and I don't think anyone has called it that(esp because it didn't correct anything it made it worse, IMO, nothing needed to be corrected in the Michael arc EXCEPT give Dean more presence and time in it and that's the one thing they did not do) - but in any case, I agree it wasn't sudden to DABB.  It was most likely Dabb's plan all along, which is why there was barely anything in the first half of the season.

IMO Dabb turning it over to NougatSue was his plan from the start, he just lied to Jensen about it. It was all a bait and switch and that's why he did next to nothing with it for half the season, because Dean didn't really need to be anything but a placeholder so Jack could pull the rug out from under everything and take over the storyline.

Like Nick saying Sam isn't Lucifer's perfect vessel anymore, we'll find out neither was Dean Michael's.  Jack came along and now Lucifer and if Michael did return, probably Michael, will most likely fight for who gets to have him "No he's my vessl" " No I WANT HIM!!"

If I was anyone on the show I wouldn't be proud of mining Season 6 character arcs(because well big one, the Season 6 characters arcs were pretty damn bad as it was,  imo, the soulless Sam had zero consistency, then they tried to make us feel like it was somehow bad and awful to give someone back their soul which is just bizarre, domesticated Dean was an unrealistic storyline done badly and even then they only managed to pull him out of it by trying to trash his character,(interesting they tried to trash Dean in both his own and Sam's storyline etc, etc) because that was 8 years ago, they've grown and changed(or they had until they were regressed into cardboard cliche cutouts with writing so one dimensional that despite the actors best efforts they only barely manage to make them two dimensional most of the time whereas they used to be full 3 D in Technicolor).  It's shows a serious lack of creativity. 

But then again seems like many of the current writers watched the previous seasons either "in the background while doing the housework" or don't pay attention to anything beyond the episodes they's written.  So I don't think they would even realize they were re-writing Season 6 character arcs.

Edited April 9, 2019 by tessathereaper

[ILoveReading]

19 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

I don't think it was a jokey comment. 

I don't think it was a joke either.  Jensen was quite vocal about the handling of demon dean and purgatory.  His one request for Michael was to play him long enough to really since his teeth into the character and develop him.  So to comment that they took the character away just as he found his stride was the exact opposite of the one thing he asked for.

I don't see that being a laughing matter to him.

19 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

I agree it wasn't sudden to DABB.  It was most likely Dabb's plan all along, which is why there was barely anything in the first half of the season.

IMO, it was obvious from Dabb's interviews at comic con.  Between the breathing room comment, the accusation about Dean holding back Sam from fulfillng his rightful place as leader, Dabb blowing Jensen off when he asked for help, Michael feeling shoehorned into the pilot, the constant inteviews immediately ending speculation about the storyline, allthat for me all screams loud and clear Michael wasn't nor never was going to be a priority this season.

Edited April 9, 2019 by ILoveReading

[ILoveReading]

This whole thread needs to be sent to everyone one of SPN's writers

Edited April 9, 2019 by ILoveReading

[tessathereaper]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

This whole thread needs to be sent to everyone one of SPN's writers

Yes, please someone send that whole thread to them.  I mean we have one of the newbies bragging about how half the show should only be watched at background noise while cleaning the house.  Ugh!  They suck so badly.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

Yes, please someone send that whole thread to them.  I mean we have one of the newbies bragging about how half the show should only be watched at background noise while cleaning the house.  Ugh!  They suck so badly.

+1000!-and especially because it's the Better half of the show(especially the writing).

[FlickChick]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

This whole thread needs to be sent to everyone one of SPN's writers

Unfortunately, I'm not sure some (all?) of them would even understand what they're reading in these posts. That's, IMO, how bad they are. 😞

[catrox14]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

This whole thread needs to be sent to everyone one of SPN's writers

I think everyone here can write a better spec than the current crop excluding Yockey

[bethy]

5 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

I mean we have one of the newbies bragging about how half the show should only be watched at background noise while cleaning the house. 

Wait. What? When was this?

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, bethy said:

Wait. What? When was this?

Dabb's assistant told someone who was thinking of watching the show the best way to watch the early seasons was to watch them as back ground noise while cleaning.

[bethy]

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dabb's assistant told someone who was thinking of watching the show the best way to watch the early seasons was to watch them as back ground noise while cleaning.

Wow. Just. Wow.

Thanks.

[DeeDee79]

32 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dabb's assistant told someone who was thinking of watching the show the best way to watch the early seasons was to watch them as back ground noise while cleaning.

Wasn't she also the one that made a comment about sticking with the show because it gets better in the later seasons? 

[7kstar]

Yes, which is why I'm not a fan of hers nor did I think she did a great job on her first script.

[Lastcall]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Dabb's assistant told someone who was thinking of watching the show the best way to watch the early seasons was to watch them as back ground noise while cleaning.

This is the quality of talent Dabb chose to surround himself with. Vapid sycophants that couldn’t care less about the characters that keep them employed and only want to use the show to pimp their failed fan fic that would never see the light of day anywhere else.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Lastcall

[ILoveReading]

10 hours ago, Lastcall said:

This is the quality of talent Dabb chose to surround himself with. Vapid sycophants that couldn’t care less about the characters that keep them employed and only want to use the show to pimp their failed fan fic that would never see the light of day anywhere else.

At least we have the satisfaction of knowing they wrote themselves out of a job.

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Absence" episode thread:

23 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean isn't being (and won't be) played as the hero. He is getting a thourough hate-wave right now and daring to hurt previous Nougat will make that ten times worse. 

After all, even new sainted Mary never hat anything good to say to him either.   

It depends on how you look at it. In my opinion, generally the real hero doesn't need praise... he's shown to be a hero, and he's also underappreciated, but perseveres. He does what needs to be done, even if others dislike or condemn him for it or don't understand. He does the hard things no one else wants to do. Like Batman (the new Batman.) Dean did say he was Batman after all.

The real praise - not lip service praise - from this show is in how the powerful beings in this show all look to Dean as important (Chuck, Billie) or admire and want to be like him (Castiel, Jack). To me that is the way the show positively represents Dean.

The textual praise, in my opinion is often not what it's cracked up to be, because unfortunately lately this show seems to like damning with that faint praise. Look at all the AU hunters in the bunker whirring along fairly well... Oops they're dead, guess they weren't prepared that well after all, since they all stood around waiting to get slaughtered. Guess Sam wasn't that good a leader after all - not that we showed him being one really all season, but now we're showing he's truly failed at it.

I know others have said that this isn't what the writers mean to show... but for me, at some point it has to become more than a mistake. How much more obvious can it get than they're all dead now?

It's like last episode: you seemed to see "Sam is just being sympathetic" (already a weird concept considering who Nick is and the same writers had Sam kill the BMoL) whereas I saw Sam being shown as incompetent. And if Sam was being shown as sympathetic, then that was being shown as misguided and fatally stupid, too. I, myself, don't see how being taken down like a rookie by a middle-aged human - especially as Dean is defeating actual demons at the same time - is somehow showing Sam as the heroic one or even competent. If that were Dean getting outwitted by and beaten up by Nick, there would be claims of him being shown as pathetic. And if it were Sam beating up the demons, there would be claims of Super Sam.

From what I've hear happens in this episode, it's a similar interpretation thing. Sam is given some praise from Mary - potentially to make up for the fact that he's going to have to say he was wrong later for not listening to Dean (for the how manyth number of times now?) - whereas Dean doesn't get praise from Mary... he shows quiet support. He's grateful for what he has and to be a shoulder for his mother to lay her head on and have his support... like he did way back when in his "Dark Side of the Moon" memory... being happy to give to others... kinda like a hero.

So in my interpretation, not a hate wave at all, but probably setting Dean up to be the strong one in the face of everyone else failing or falling apart. So obviously my miles vary here, but I'm okay with being at my table of one.

I might even refrain from an "I told you so," if I turn out to be right. Of course I'd rather be wrong, and will gladly admit if I am.

Hey, what do you know: a win-win of sorts. Hey @SueB maybe there is a silver lining after all.

[Aeryn13]

The hate-wave is in the fandom and it is pretty strong right now. I saw someone say Dean is pretty much as bad as Lucifer. Another comparism was to Hitler. So if the writers try to play Dean as a hero, they are doing a pretty bad at conveying it to viewers.

Edited April 12, 2019 by Aeryn13

[BabySpinach]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The hate-wave is in the fandom and it is pretty strong right now. I saw someone say Dean is pretty much as bad as Lucifer. Another comparism was to Hitler. So if the writers try to play Dean as a hero, they are doing a pretty bad at conveying it to viewers.

Marvelous. I can guarantee that the hate against Jack for actually KILLING MARY is less than the hate against Dean for expressing perfectly reasonable amounts of panic/grief over the aforementioned dead mom. 

[ILoveReading]

It doesn't help that when Dean gets angry/upset Jared has started playing these scenes like he's scared of Dean.  Its just adds fuel to the fire.

[BabySpinach]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It doesn't help that when Dean gets angry/upset Jared has started playing these scenes like he's scared of Dean.  Its just adds fuel to the fire.

I've noticed that too. I saw someone on Tumblr saying that they wanted Sam to smash Dean's face in every time the latter made him flinch (the irony of that seems to be lost on them). 

Sam is not a battered housewife. He used to be able to match his brother's anger (and then some) in the earlier seasons, but his woobification has long since killed that aspect of his personality, among several others. 

Now, anyone who expresses an authentic human emotion that isn't totally cutesy or pretty is labelled as abusive. And that's usually Dean, because he's the only non-woobiefied character left.

[Aeryn13]

10 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

I've noticed that too. I saw someone on Tumblr saying that they wanted Sam to smash Dean's face in every time the latter made him flinch (the irony of that seems to be lost on them). 

Sam is not a battered housewife. He used to be able to match his brother's anger (and then some) in the earlier seasons, but his woobification has long since killed that aspect of his personality, among several others. 

Now, anyone who expresses an authentic human emotion that isn't totally cutesy or pretty is labelled as abusive. And that's usually Dean, because he's the only non-woobiefied character left.

Yes, in other shows Dean wouldn't stick out as "abusive" but in a world full of woobified unicorns, he apparently strikes terror in the heart of those around him. And yeah, the irony of wanting to see him bashed by whoever Woobie McSaint is on call is eyeroll-worthy.

From the moment they released the promo last week, I knew the hate was the intended reaction by Berens. His pet Kaia called Dean a weak bully as pretty much his mouthpiece.

And I'm convinced he didn't get a flashback where Mary, for once, paid him a compliment because Berens doesn't think there is anything good to say about Dean. Not because of shooting reasons. Even the Ice Queen is superior to him for these writers. 

[ILoveReading]

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

It depends on how you look at it. In my opinion, generally the real hero doesn't need praise... he's shown to be a hero, and he's also underappreciated, but perseveres. He does what needs to be done, even if others dislike or condemn him for it or don't understand. He does the hard things no one else wants to do. Like Batman (the new Batman.) Dean did say he was Batman after all.

I wouldn't worry to much.  I'm sure Sam will get the BDH moment at the end of this ep.

He'll need to make up for all the guilt he's feeling.  So he'll either offer to sacrifice himself and get in the Malak box with Jack.  It won't be treated as Sam being suicidal or reckless (even though his reasons will resemble exactly that).  He certainly won't get punched and accused of being a quitter.

Or he'll get the the yellow crayon speech that gets through to Jack and makes him a goody goody bouncy bouncy baby next season.

[PAForrest]

27 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Sam is not a battered housewife. He used to be able to match his brother's anger (and then some) in the earlier seasons, but his woobification has long since killed that aspect of his personality, among several others. 

Now, anyone who expresses an authentic human emotion that isn't totally cutesy or pretty is labelled as abusive. And that's usually Dean, because he's the only non-woobiefied character left.

Thank Chuck for this viewer, because I hate cutesy woobiefied characters. They're boring, which is what this show has long become.

Yet maybe that's one of the reasons these producers don't like the Dean character, because Dean can't be superficially cutesified. Not to mention the fact that Jensen has always acted outside of and beyond the writing on the page, and that's just not something they can control. Of course, this is what makes Dean truly iconic and will do so long after the show's official expiration date.

Obviously these show's writers are producing a far simpler, more superficial series for the newer younger Netflix audience who only want simple and superficial. Unfortunately for those viewers, and for the producers, Dean doesn't translate well to the superficial format, if at all, and clearly that has pissed off everyone - writers and those viewers who only want cutesy and superficial.

[gonzosgirrl]

At this point I wish Dean would do the crime if he has to do the time, and beat the ever-loving snot out of all three of the woobies, before taking Baby and fucking off forever.

Edited April 12, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

At this point I wish Dean would do the crime if he has to do the time, and beat the ever-loving snot out of all three of the woobies, before taking Baby and fucking off forever.

Who do I have to pay off to make this happen. 

Can he kill Jack on the way out the door

[Wateroflife]

22 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I'd say Mary is a goner

Maybe I'm losing perspective here, but when I saw that Dabb had quoted this lovely sad Warren Zevon song to shill this episode with it's schmaltzy flashbacks, I wanted to hit something. Is it too much to hope that Dabb will skip the show's last Comic Con this summer just like he the 300th party?

[Lastcall]

1 hour ago, PAForrest said:

Obviously these show's writers are producing a far simpler, more superficial series for the newer younger Netflix audience who only want simple and superficial. Unfortunately for those viewers, and for the producers, Dean doesn't translate well to the superficial format, if at all, and clearly that has pissed off everyone - writers and those viewers who only want cutesy and superficial.

In other words, the people that killed the show and ruined any chance for a spin-off. Why Dabb catered to them instead of the ones that kept the show on the air for 11 years is beyond me. I understand trying to get new viewers but you can’t do that when your losses exceed your gains.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Wateroflife said:

Maybe I'm losing perspective here, but when I saw that Dabb had quoted this lovely sad Warren Zevon song to shill this episode with it's schmaltzy flashbacks, I wanted to hit something. Is it too much to hope that Dabb will skip the show's last Comic Con this summer just like he the 300th party?

I will be surprised if he does show up at this point. Not showing up for the 300th party and not even acknowledging it beyond having his sycophant assistant issue a weak-sauce tweet is bizarre enough, in my opinion, to question what his role even is now.

I keep going back to how positive they all were at that point that 300 was just another milestone and there was no (definitive) end in site. I simply don't believe anybody was lying or obfuscating at the time. Something happened - whether it was Jensen finally reading ahead and seeing the NougatNatural writing on the wall, or 'straw that broke the camel's back' situation, or what, but something went down that caused them to pull the plug. If it wasn't a personal situation (ie, Jared's health), then I believe it was the insult of being relegated to supporting characters in their own story, and I won't believe otherwise unless/until I hear something definitive from the horses' mouths.