S12.E14: The Raid

[SueB]

46 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Dean never expected it, MARY expected it. MARY has an issue with this.

Both Mary and Sam kept telling Dean at various points to stop expecting Mary to "mommy" him, and I think that when Mary more or less said it AGAIN in this argument, Dean finally snapped back that he got it, thanks (by saying that he hadn't been a kid ever let alone was expecting to be treated as one now).

But then I think he realized that even though HE didn't have this expectation or problem, it didn't mean it didn't exist -- it was an expectation/problem *for Mary.* So that's why he brought it up with her later, to put it to bed and to tell her to stop worrying about it.

Exactly. And as I said a couple of days ago, Mary doesn't know HOW to be a 'Mom' of adult children.  It's she who associates "Mom"=cut off the crusts of the PB&J.

53 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm starting to wonder how much "tech" is in those gadgets versus some kind of magic. And if some of them are magic - as obviously for example the Colt bullets are - is their a price to those or a dubious way they acquired the magic.

I'm concerned that the big guys in charge are something awful. I remember that the leviathans wanted to get rid of all of the other monsters, too, but that didn't make them good guys.

1) I like this point about magic animated gadgets, and

2) I kinda WANT the "old men" to be something evil, awful, and ancient.  I want them to have "To Serve Man" on their library shelves (okay, not actual aliens, just evil).  Maybe from the Faerie realm?  That would so fit with the ancient lore.  

[rue721]

2 minutes ago, SueB said:

Maybe from the Faerie realm?  That would so fit with the ancient lore.  

I would really like that. I love the Faeries. And I am also hoping to have them show up this season, because my fingers are crossed that they can replace Lucifer's baby with a foundling.

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, if the intention was to show Mary's faulty perception why not just have him say "Look, Mom. I never expected those things that you seem to think I did. We never expected you to be JUST A MOM or make me sandwiches.I just wanted you to be with us a little bit more", especially given Dean's forthright and direct manner he's shown this year with speaking his mind why would he stop being forthright in that moment? If Dean was saying that for Mary's benefit, I don't think  it quite meshes with Dean's almost sheepish and apologetic tone, IMO. YMMV

Not trying to change your interpretation, just explain mine :) I don't think we have enough to go on to have a definitive answer right now anyway. But as a response to the question of why Dean would be so conciliatory toward Mary --

IMO because he wants to make up with Mary. He wants to make nice with her. He is not going to stand on principle with her, not when her life is at stake and not when their relationship is at stake -- and he's telling her that flat out.

That's a big deal IMO. He has stood on principle before with Sam; and, they had some major rifts when he didn't like what Sam was up to. John was Dean's role model and John stood on principle all the time; hence, the gigantic rift between John and Sam. Dean is not going to make that mistake now, he is not going to let a rift open up between himself and Mary. I think that Mary's storyline is pretty similar to Sam's in S4, and Dean is showing here that he's going to respond very differently to her now than he did to Sam back then, presumably because he has grown and changed a lot since then.

I think that he just reassures her that she doesn't need to worry about playing mommy and then moves on, without rehashing the argument and without going into an explanation of what his expectations are, because his point is that he's letting this go. He cares more about her well-being than he does about any of this. That's also why he calls her mom at the end IMO. To tell her that he's letting this go, he's not standing on principle, he really just cares that she's OK.

I find that touching TBH. I think it's touching because I see that as him saying that, regardless of what choices she makes or even if she loves him, he loves her (unconditionally). I know that some people find that kind of thing weak or foolish or whatever, but I think it's very sweet. And TBH appropriate considering that they're mother and son.

Of course, it's also bittersweet in the sense that I don't think Mary is capable of doing the same for him (or for Sam).

[mertensia]

Other than the fact that they killed off the Alpha Vamp, I greatly enjoyed this episode.

Ketch made a huge, most probably fatal mistake: telling Dean Dean's nothing more than a killer. Dean will use that to disguise everything, just like he uses being blue collar to disguise his intelligence. 

The Pierce twist was a good one.

[denise42]

I really enjoyed this episode, I didn’t think I would due to it being Dean lite, as you can tell I am a Deans girl.  I can understand Jensen wanted to be with his family, for the birth of his twins.

I was pleased they continued with the conversation between Mary and the boys.  I was sad to see Sam wanting to join the men of letters, why doesn’t  Sam just say to Dean he wants to work with them instead of being sneaky and going behind his back again.   Dean is going to feel so betrayed again by his whole family.  Dean and Mr Ketch can team up I suppose, but Dean is nothing like him.

Had they teamed up when Dean had the Mark of Cain, it might have been a different story.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I find that touching TBH. I think it's touching because I see that as him saying that, regardless of what choices she makes or even if she loves him, he loves her (unconditionally). I know that some people find that kind of thing weak or foolish or whatever, but I think it's very sweet. And TBH appropriate considering that they're mother and son.

Of course, it's also bittersweet in the sense that I don't think Mary is capable of doing the same for him (or for Sam).

That makes me so incredibly sad for Dean. Even his own mother can`t love him and it all has to come from him. Amara would have been kinda to take him to a nice afterlife instead of bringing Mary back.

[Geordiegirl1967]

1 hour ago, denise42 said:

I was sad to see Sam wanting to join the men of letters, why doesn’t  Sam just say to Dean he wants to work with them instead of being sneaky and going behind his back again.   Dean is going to feel so betrayed again by his whole family.  Dean and Mr Ketch can team up I suppose, but Dean is nothing like him

If this is how it pans out I'll totally agree with you. But we don't know what Sam's next step will be. I have all my fingers and toes crossed that he will be immediately open with Dean. That he'll say 'look I think we should consider working with them. They have their issues but a lot of their methods work. Why shouldn't we get from them what we can so we can be better hunters, while also looking out for Mum?'

If however he doesn't tell Dean about his conversation with Mick then I will be royally pissed. Surely he has to though?  The clear implication was that he was asking Mick for time to persuade Dean. He can't do that without talking to him about it.

I just loathed that last scene with Sam and Mick. Why spoil what had been a good episode to that point by writing that scene in a deliberately divisive way unless you plan to follow it up with actually dividing the brothers? After coming so close to giving up on the show at times during the Jeremy 'I'm out of ideas so let's create some stupid ooc bro conflict' Carver years. I don't know if I have the energy to go through all that again.

[Pondlass1]

Secrets and lies and contrived brotherly angst belong on afternoon soaps, not this show.  It's been done several times before, no one liked it, it was annoying and cheap 'suspense'.

Why would Sam join with a group of what has shown to be unorganized inept murderers who just recently tortured him for (duh!) names of US hunters?  Makes zero sense. Andrew needs to be slapped in the head. 

Sam had better come clean and - geez - they've got to stop with the obvious info dumps. ? If a script is well written we can figure it out

[Reganne]

2 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

If this is how it pans out I'll totally agree with you. But we don't know what Sam's next step will be. I have all my fingers and toes crossed that he will be immediately open with Dean. That he'll say 'look I think we should consider working with them. They have their issues but a lot of their methods work. Why shouldn't we get from them what we can so we can be better hunters, while also looking out for Mum?'

If however he doesn't tell Dean about his conversation with Mick then I will be royally pissed. Surely he has to though?  The clear implication was that he was asking Mick for time to persuade Dean. He can't do that without talking to him about it.

 

I got the impression that he was planning to talk with Dean about it in the near future.  I don't know how he'd be able to keep that from Dean because the two of them usually work together.  I think Dean would start to wonder where Sam is all of a sudden if he starts disappearing for hours at a time.  So hopefully this isn't drawn out.  I was happy that we hadn't seen a 'feud' between the two for a while.

[Geordiegirl1967]

4 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Secrets and lies and contrived brotherly angst belong on afternoon soaps, not this show.  It's been done several times before, no one liked it, it was annoying and cheap 'suspense'.

Amen to this! And hi Pondlass. Good to see you posting here. 

[Wayward Son]

It took me longer than I expected, but I finally finished my review of this weeks episode if anyone is interested in reading my thoughts. 

The Raid by Robert Berens is a Winchester family centric episode, which focuses on the consequences of Mary’s shocking confession at the end of Family Feud. Throughout the course of this episode we get to see the brothers differing reactions to their mother’s actions, we gain insight into the inner workings of the British Man of Letters, and it culminates in Sam making a shocking decision. Overall, I would consider the episode a success, but there are several characterisation issues that must be addressed in future if I am to consider it a great episode rather than a decent one.

Mary: “I am your mother, but I am not just a mom and you are not a child”
Dean: “I never was”

The episodes opening scene was a continuation of last weeks closing scene and this was the perfect choice. I confess that I had fears they would gloss over what was said and skip straight to the fallout. I would have considered that path a serious failing, as I feel it was important that we got to see what was said by the characters. We needed to hear how Mary tried to justify her actions, if only to confirm what we had already suspected, and we needed to see first hand the brother’s reaction, in order to truly understand why the three of them behaved the way they did throughout the rest of the episode.

What I loved about this confrontation was that Dean was able to express his hurt while remaining true to the man we know. He was allowed to express his anger upon learning that her manipulations led to the near death of Castiel, and he was allowed to express the hurt he felt at learning that she didn’t just need space, she needed space away from them. He was even allowed to berate Mary about a long term grievance namely the fact he was never given the opportunity to be a child due to the choices made by Mary (and John). What made the scene even better was the silent support offered by Sam throughout the speech. He didn’t judge Dean. Instead, he backed him up and even reiterated Dean’s request that she leave. Even if he had his own misgivings, Sam was wise enough to know his brother needed some time before they interacted with her again.

I do think that Mary misunderstood what Dean was saying, whether that misunderstanding was genuine, or an attempt to assuage a guilty conscience is much more difficult to determine. Despite what Mary seems to thinks, Dean was never asking her to be the stereotypical mum who makes PB&J sandwiches and spends her days tending to their needs. What he wants, no what he needs, was some sign from her that she was interested in forming a familial relationship. At the moment she’s been treating them as allies more than anything i.e. people to be contacted when she needs help with something. I can understand that Mary may be experiencing feelings of confusion, and she is still reeling from the trauma of finding herself in this strange new world. However, she has failed to display any true empathy for the plight of her sons, as she is too consumed by her own thoughts and feelings. Therefore, Dean’s anger at learning that she had aligned herself with a cause he considers contrary to his own is hardly surprising.

As far as I am concerned Sam and Dean’s reactions in the days that followed were perfectly in character. Dean has always been the one to find it harder to forgive actions he perceives as acts of betrayal. For instance, back in season seven, while Sam had reached a point where he was able to speak to Castiel with compassion by Reading is Fundamental Dean was still focused on his anger as shown through his declaration “nobody cares that you’re broken”. Therefore, Sam being the first to consider reaching out to Mary was not at all surprising and true to established behaviours. I also don’t see his position as refusing to pick a side. Sam has been shown to pick a side. He picked Dean’s side. He simply has reached a point where he no longer wants this rift to be something that separates the three of them permanently. I feel Sam’s amazing capacity for forgiveness lies in his self-esteem issues. He knows (and still feels guilty about the fact) that he has made some serious mistakes in the past. He is able to forgive people because he appreciates just how valuable the forgiveness Dean has extended to him is and he wishes to offer that to others.

However, it was not long before Sam behaviour began to become difficult for me to accept. I can understand that he would have wanted to go and see Mary after reading an ‘urgent message’. However, I am extremely disappointed that he felt the need to lie to Dean about it. He could have easily mentioned where he was going with the added message ‘will explain later’. Dean would not have liked it. There is no point in trying to deny that, but I think he would have ultimately accepted Sam’s right to determine whether or not he wants to see her. One of the things I’ve enjoyed most about the last two seasons is the unity between the brothers displayed. Sam and Dean were finally moving out of the toxic rut of secret keeping the writers were so fond of during seasons eight till ten. I was disappointed to find that the writers seem to be dipping back into that, if Sam’s behaviour here and his decision at the end of the episode is anything to go by.

While I’m on the subject I do not find Dean’s decision to work with Ketch comparable to Sam’s decision to work with Mary and the others as the episode seemed to suggest. There was a clear difference between the two scenarios. When Dean told Sam he was going out for a drink he meant it. Mr. Ketch did not enter the picture until after Sam was gone. Sam, on the other hand, deliberately withheld information from Dean by keeping the note left as vague as possible.

In regards to the apology between Dean and Mary I have mixed feelings on the matter. On the one hand, it was true to Dean’s character. It makes sense to me that he would panic when he thought he might lose Mary again, and this panic would lead him to the conclusion he doesn’t want to cut her out of his life just because she’s made some bad choices. However, there was something about the wording that didn’t sit quite right with him. It almost seemed as though Dean’s legitimate complaints, which I touched on earlier, had been reduced to him complaining because Mary refused to be a full time mother to him. On the other hand, I liked the fact that Dean reiterated the fact that he still disliked her choices. As far as I am concerned this is the most mature way to behave i.e. giving your honest opinion, rather than behaving like a yes man, while acknowledging that others have the right to make decisions contrary to your wishes. However, to remain true to the nature of Dean’s earlier complaints, I wish he had added the condition that he would respect her provided she didn’t lie and try to manipulate them again.

A quick note but I’m so happy Dean did not join in when Sam and Mary expressed approval of the unpleasant methods the Men of Letter’s use to deal with rogue hunters. This showed that Dean has managed to maintain a sceptical attitude when it comes to the British Man of Letters.

Sam: “I am in… Look, tonight was bad, no doubt, but the alpha vampire is dead. You’re changing the world and I want to be a part of it”
Mick: “And your brother?”
Sam: “Give me some time”

In addition to the Winchester family drama, one of the key purposes of this episode was to provide us with insight into the inner workings of the British Man of Letters. Before I discuss that, I want to point out that I utterly disapprove of the method Mary used to get Sam to the British Man of Letters base. The fact that she used ‘urgent’, a word which should not be used lightly by hunters, shows she has not learnt from Dean’s speech. She is still willing to try and manipulate the boys in order to get what she wants. I’m extremely disappointed by that, and I’m finding it increasingly difficult to remain sympathetic to Mary and her story as a result.

This episode has reinforced something I’ve suspected for a while now; the British Man of Letters are nowhere near as impressive as they would have us believe. I know that Mary makes reference to them ‘roughing it’, but I still find it hard to believe that an organisation as strong as they claim to be would settle for what seems like a rather dingy base with average technology at best. Worse still, the personnel involved are utterly sub-par; do they really think that one decent hunter (Mr. Ketch), a charming sales guy (Mick), a research and development guy and a security woman are adequate provisions for clearing America of monsters? I am increasingly getting the impression that they are a lot more incompetent than they’d have us believe, and they are trying to throw people off the scent by making use of fancy looking weaponry.

The incompetency of the British Man of Letters was further highlighted when their operation went south and the situation grew direr. I loved the fact that Sam and Mary (who was following the instructions of Sam) instantly took control of the situation without any protest from the others around them. It was a striking contrast between the two groups. It showed us that in spite of their fancy technology and weaponry, when it comes down to it, the Winchesters are the superior hunters. The British Man of Letters don’t even come close to Sam, Dean and Mary. It’s clear to me, that in spite of Mr. Ketch’s protests, the British Man of Letters know they need Sam and Dean more than the brothers need them.

It is the consistent incompetency displayed that made Sam’s decision to join them all the more baffling. Up until now he has been strongly against them, and understandably so due to the torture he faced at the hands of Lady Toni, and there was nothing in this episode that would have feasibly changed his mind about the matter. Personally, I hope that he is just playing them in a bid to destroy them from the inside, and we will learn that through a discussion with Dean next week. Otherwise, I struggle to understand where he is coming from, and I will find his sudden allegiance as disappointing as I found his decision to lie to Dean earlier in the episode.

Mr Ketch: “The men of letters is an excellent fit for someone with our inclinations”
Dean: “Our? As in you and me?”
Mr. Ketch: You’re a killer Dean Winchester, and so am I, and if we go too long without something to track or trap or punch or gut well things get a bit ugly. Don’t they?”

Just like his encounter with Mary last week I feel the show is using Mr. Ketch as the unreliable narrator. He is providing us with some insight into how he and the Man of Letters perceive the Winchesters. Some of the thing he says is true, but ultimately he fails to comprehend the more nuanced aspects of their psyche, which results in the creation of a rather general description those who don’t know them well could believe.

The show has long explored the idea that Dean has a darker side to him, a side that could easily lead him down a very, very dark path if Dean allows it go unchecked. An early example of this occurred back in Bloodlust when Dean quickly bonded with Gordon Walker due to the mutual enjoyment they got out of the violence that being a hunter entailed. Likewise, he was said to have returned from purgatory rejuvenated due to the fact that he thrived under the kill or be killed circumstances that world provided. We were also told that he was only able to bear the Mark of Cain due to the killer instinct he possessed. Therefore, in my opinion, it would be difficult to argue there wasn’t a grain of truth behind Mr. Ketch’s words.

However, what distinguishes Dean from Mr. Ketch and other sociopaths like him is the fact that Dean only applies these impulses to the beings that deserve him. We have seen him allow well meaning ‘monsters’ such as Lenore, Kate and Benny to go over the years. Dean is not just a killer and he is far from a sociopath. While Dean has his darker edges at his core lies the heart of a good man. This is further shown within the episode itself. While Mr. Ketch was happy to beat the information out of the vampire Dean was much more reluctant to do so preferring to offer her a merciful death instead. His actions in that scene clearly demonstrate that while Dean is willing to do what it takes to get the job done he is not the type to do so for the sake of it.

Other Notes
• “You almost killed Cas”, this season is definitely the best season since season eight for showing us that Dean cares about Castiel, even when the angel isn’t around, and I love it! Long may this continue <3.

• Does Mr. Ketch have a crush on Mary perhaps? He certainly seems to admire her, as he sees similarities between the two of them, and this could also explain why he holds her in such esteem and considers her “the best Winchester”.

• For the most part Jensen’s acting was amazing as always. He especially sold Dean’s hurt and anger during the opening scene. However, there was a rare moment when his performance was a let down for me. At the end of the episode they implied that Dean was panicked at the thought of losing Mary again and that is why he apologised to her. However, during the scene when the vampire revealed the others had gone to “hunt the hunters” I didn’t get a sense of panic from Dean. He was portrayed as far too cool for someone who had just learnt their mum was in danger.

[DittyDotDot]

9 hours ago, rue721 said:

YMMV but I really don't know that we have solid evidence that they do get results. The BMOL make claims, but they never seem able to back up those claims. So far, everything that we know that the BMOL has touched has turned to shit or been a total amateur hour production. Kidnapping and torturing Sam and getting nowhere with him. Needing to use Mary and her band of (unwitting) merry men to steal the Colt. Barely surviving a vampire attack at their own stronghold/armory. Even their claims about what has gone on in England have not been verified by outside sources AFAIK. Not even saying these claims are necessarily false, just that IMO they're meaningless without back up. Personally, I think everything we've seen makes it seem like the BMOL are a mess who couldn't find their own way out of a paper bag.

Anyway, IMO the most compelling evidence that the BMOL actually do get results is that Sam couldn't come up with a case for Dean and him to work. But that didn't get linked to the BMOL within the episode, so it's hard to know if that's meant to mean anything at all about them.

I agree, I think the BMoL are overconfident in their tech, but don't have anything else to back that up. I'm thinking the UK isn't as secure as they think it is either. I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't an monster underground that's running circles around the BMoL. I also question if they wiped out all the vampires they said they did. I mean, if there were only 11 vampires left alive, Dean and Ketch took out one and it surely seemed like there were more than 10 vampires who raided their facility. Plus, we already know their intel was crap... .

I'm guessing the "old men" are the ones who cleaned up the UK and these younger MoL have no actual experience dealing with the supernatural. They've been sheltered all these years. So, they're good with the research and making gadgets that work, but have no clue what to do when faced with an actual monster. I think they're somewhat complacent; believing no one would dare challenge them. 

9 hours ago, rue721 said:

Still reading your post, but just wanted to pipe in for now that IMO the use of the egg wasn't successful. They pulled Lucifer out of his host, but then he just went into an airduct and is now in Crowley's abandoned nuthouse...*ahem*...I mean, Crowley's "palace."

Actually, the use of the egg was successful. I mean, it did exactly what it was advertised to do, pull Lucifer from his meatsuit. It's not the BMoL's fault that Crowley sneaked around behind everyone and altered Rowena's spell. Although, you'd think Sam and Dean would've learned by now to keep an eye on Crowley at all times. Or that Rowena could tell her spell was tampered with, but whatever.

In any case, the BMoL did come through for them with a gadget that worked exactly as advertised. But I think that's kinda the point, their gadgets perform; they just don't realize they need more than the gadgets to implement their "big" plans. I mean, the AVD worked like a charm when the vamps had no clue about it, but what happens when you don't have AVD or the monsters adapt and find a way around the AVD? 

9 hours ago, bearcatfan said:

I can't help but wonder if Sam's "I'm in" was more "You people are going to get my mom killed if I don't watch her back" than actually buying in to what they are selling. He knows their intel is crap. They thought the Alpha Vamp had been out of the country for over a decade. Sam saw him last in North Dakota 5 years ago and said as much.

Yeah, I'm not sure that Sam has some twisty master plan here, but I do think he sees their vision is worthy, but they need someone with some experience--and brains--to be effective. I think Sam might just be trying to keep the BMoL from getting more good people killed, even though I also think Sam is being incredibly naive here too. 

[Myrelle]

16 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

However, during the scene when the vampire revealed the others had gone to “hunt the hunters” I didn’t get a sense of panic from Dean. He was portrayed as far too cool for someone who had just learnt their mum was in danger.

He had absolutely no idea what that meant. Neither did Ketch. That was the info that they were trying to get out of her.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Myrelle

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

He had absolutely no idea what that meant. Neither did Ketch. That was the info that they were trying to get out of her.

I read the scene differently. The two of them were quizzing her on where the vampires went. She said to "hunt the hunters" and Dean and Ketch both understood immediately what that meant and shared a significant look. The look just didn't portray a sense of panicked "OMG MUM" to me.

[Myrelle]

They were both alarmed but needed more. That was the reaction I saw and it seemed appropriate for seasoned hunters to me. But we can agree to disagree on the acting choice. Seeing him panic was of little import to me, anyway, so we can even agree to disagree on that point, if necessary. 

[SueB]

@Wayward Son Excellent meaty review!  Thanks for putting that together.  I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with you, Mary's use of "urgent" was still manipulative.  That's troubling.  While Mary absolutely earned her verbal smackdown from Dean, this is far from over.  If I was God-Emperor of Dune the Universe, I'd lobby Mary to hunt with the boys longer to get to know them.  It's her ego that had her go out on her own IMO.  The "I have 30 years to catch up." is tied to her hunting competency as much (if not more) than her role in the family.  She's YOUNG (comparatively).  She needs to learn some of what the boys have to teach her.  And she's not accepted that.  If she gets to that point, that would be great.  

On Dean's reaction upon 'hunting the hunters' - he definitely was looking up at Ketch like "oh, YOU are screwed".  It didn't seem like he had made the connection: Mary is in trouble.  Now if it had been Sammy, that connection would have been made in a nanosecond.  (Note: How much did I love that Sam understands that intuitively -- Dean-Save-Sam mode is Job #1).  So, I'm going to go with it as less of an acting choice and more of a plot line.  Options:
- Dean isn't accustomed to thinking that automatically about Mary and the realization came off-screen
- They wanted Dean's rationale for racing to the rescue to reveal his motivation to keep Mary safe -- which is also why they had Sam ask his question about why come charging to the rescue -- to be at the end of the episode.  I think this came as no surprise to the audience, but maybe they thought it would.
- Dean's level of panic and concern increased and crystallized during the drive.  
In short, I suspect the "look" was plot-driven versus acting choice. YMMV

(Note to new folks: YMMV means Your Mileage May Vary ... i.e. this is a perspective that is likely more variable that how I think about it)

[Reganne]

I think at some point in the future, the BMOL are going to go to far with their methods and it's going to cause some kind of conflict.  One thing I'm not sure of, is the extent of what they know about Sam and Dean.  They know about Castiel, but what about Crowley?  Rowena? Garth?  Benny?  Sam's demon blood past and his powers?  Are they going to go after the angels like Castiel?  Do they know about the MOC and Dean being a demon at one point?  These are things the BMOL seem to firmly stand against.  I am kind of intrigued to see where it goes, because I don't think this partnership is going to last.  I do think that Sam and Mary are being naive at this point.

[shang yiet]

Loved the opening Sam, Dean and Mary argument. Good that Dean got to unload on Mary but again, I wish Sam's support hadn't been so silent. You would think he's got things to unload as well. Sam's face spoke volumes though and really showed his shock and disappointment.

I cannot understand why he continues to be so understanding and patient with Mary and Mary, would it kill you to be on crust- cutting sandwich mode for Sam who really needs it? Mary saying she's not just a mum - she hasn't been any kind of mum at all since she returned from heaven. It's not like she's been fussing and cooking over her boys and is now taking me-time to do other things.

Guilt is driving Mary. She must know she betrayed Sam before he was even born and because of that, both Sam and Dean had crappy childhoods and Sam couldn't get his normal life. She's desperately trying to fix things for Sam and Dean so I can't blame her for that.  I know she does love her sons but she feels this is the best way to show that and make up for the past.

Speaking of the past, I am waiting for Sam to unload about Mary's YED deal that ruined his life. I hope he has not forgiven her for that. Sam's face was heartbreaking when he found Mary lied about the Colt yet he kept silent.

However, I understand that he can't just wash his hands off her and leave her to enter a spider's trap alone. He's trying to look out for her and if he hadn't been there at the BMol lair, Mary would have been dead.

Mary was good at manipulating Sam though. Just give Sam a glimmer of hope or an end game, and he's off. He's always been ambitious like that. He never wanted a future where he and Dean die young and bloody.

Loved to see Sam being badass, smart, cool, decisive and in take-charge mode. Don't understand the super!Sam jibes. Is he supposed to spend every episode being tied to a chair and knocked unconscious, being rescued by Dean and guest stars? Is he never allowed to kill big bad villains? It was good for me to see Sam being a leader.

Edited March 4, 2017 by shang yiet

[Geordiegirl1967]

24 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

Guilt is driving Mary. She must know she betrayed Sam before he was even born

I can't recall - do Dean and Sam know about Mary's deal with YED?

What I want to see is Sam sitting Mary down and telling her what sort of amazing brother Dean has been to him, how much he sacrificed of his own childhood to give Sam as good a life as possible, that he sold his soul to bring Sam back, what a hero he has been and how proud Mary should be of him. Dean doing same for Sam would also be amazing. But these writers seem allergic to letting an emotional scene between Winchesters go for more than a few lines. I'd watch a whole ep of it. 

Edited March 4, 2017 by Geordiegirl1967

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I can't recall - do Dean and Sam know about Mary's deal with YED?

Oh yeah, Dean saw her make the deal in In the Beginning and Yellow Eyes told Dean why he was making the deals earlier. I don't know if they know everything about it, but they do know she made a deal to save John that allowed Yellow Eyes access to the house that night. 

Edited March 4, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh yeah, Dean saw her make the deal in In the Beginning. I don't know if they know everything about it, but they do know she made a deal to save John that allowed Yellow Eyes access to the house that night. 

And they both knew that Azazel's purpose was to feed Sam demon blood ("makes 'em strong!") 

[Katy M]

35 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh yeah, Dean saw her make the deal in In the Beginning and Yellow Eyes told Dean why he was making the deals earlier. I don't know if they know everything about it, but they do know she made a deal to save John that allowed Yellow Eyes access to the house that night. 

I think Dean knows everything we know.  Mary only knew that YED would come for something in 10 years and would assume that she figured out it was Sam since she saw him when she died.  Anything else she knows would have been told to her by Dean and we saw almost zero of their catch up conversation.  So, who knows?

[catrox14]

So, did they cut off the Alpha Vamp's head? (Or the PHD gal's head)? Because you know....just because the bullet took him down doesn't mean it actually killed him.  I hope he resurrects as a zombie vampire.

OHHHH I just had a thought. What if Sam actually did pick the side of "cops and robbers". Maybe he gave them the recipe for a bullet that didn't actually kill the Alpha but only immobilized him. And that's why the Alpha said "Clever, clever boy" vs giving a compliment to his executioner. I mean that dude is hundreds if not thousands of years old, used his fingernails to cut his way out of a chain, and he's just gonna stand there and not make a move on a Winchester?? Pfft. He could have been on Sam before Sam could breathe and certainly before he could fire the Colt. Hmmm. I'm filing this away in my crack spec file. Of  course they did have Death say it would be an honor to reap the likes of Sam Winchester...so maybe it was just as straightforward as it played...I hope not though. That's boring.

Sidebar:

1st missed opportunity to have Dean be freaked out that Mary might be vamped vs just dying (I don't mean Just dying, you know what I mean). Like a line to Ketch before they leave..."If you assclowns get my mom vamped....". 

2nd missed opportunity for Dean to have picked up on any telepathic messages if the Alpha was already communicating with his children. AFAIK, there has been no development that implies that no Dean no longer has the psychic connection, (unless dying and being resurrected as a demon broke it) It would have been really cool for Dean to say, "We gotta go. The vamps are on their way to your compound." Oh well.

[enaiowen]

Sam also got the Memorex version of what happened the night she died during All Hell pt 1 so he was aware that she knew him.

[catrox14]

44 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I can't recall - do Dean and Sam know about Mary's deal with YED?

Yes, Dean knows because he was sent back in time and he knows she made the deal. And she told Dean in the premiere that "All of this was her fault" so yeah Dean knows. And I'm pretty sure Sam figured it out if not told outright by anyone else.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I think Dean knows everything we know.  Mary only knew that YED would come for something in 10 years and would assume that she figured out it was Sam since she saw him when she died.  Anything else she knows would have been told to her by Dean and we saw almost zero of their catch up conversation.  So, who knows?

Sure, but the question was what Dean and Sam know.

However, I do think we're supposed to assume Mary is caught up now and everyone is on the same page with the "facts". Back at the start of the season she said she didn't know how she would face Sam and she took off with John's journal when she went to find herself. I think what Mary doesn't know entirely is how Sam and Dean feel about the facts. And, I don't think she's actually ready to know that right now. She can't allow herself to be distracted. 

That's my read of it anyway.

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

So, did they cut off the Alpha Vamp's head? (Or the PHD gal's head)? Because you know....just because the bullet took him down doesn't mean it actually killed him.  I hope he resurrects as a zombie vampire.

::snort:: So, a zompire?!?!? ;)

I think the flickering light show probably is supposed to tell us he's dead, but I really, really want a zompire now, so... ?

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

::snort:: So, a zompire?!?!? ;)

Yes a zompire or a vambie? Either or.  I want this badly LOL

[Geordiegirl1967]

49 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh yeah, Dean saw her make the deal in In the Beginning

Does Sam know that? It's quite a burden. It would be typical of Dean to keep it from Sam to protect him.

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

AFAIK, there has been no development that implies that no Dean no longer has the psychic connection

Except that Dean is no longer a vampire. AFAIK it only works on his children i.e. Other vamps.

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Does Sam know that? It's quite a burden. It would be typical of Dean to keep it from Sam to protect him.

Well, he saw the reenactment from Yellow Eyes in All Hell Breaks Loose and knew about the demon blood too. After Dean's account of things in In the Beginning (even if he left out the part where Mary made the deal) I think Sam figured it out. There's never been any indication to me that Sam is in the dark about what happened. I don't know that he has ever stated everything he knows onscreen, but I'm of the opinion he knows.

Edited March 4, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Geordiegirl1967]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I do think we're supposed to assume Mary is caught up now

Maybe Dean and Sam should just give her the full box set of Carver Edlund's books? No better way to catch up. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think the flickering light show probably is supposed to tell us he's dead, but I really, really want a zompire now, so... ?

I get that the flickering light was likely to show him dead...but vampire lore in SPN has always been they are killed by chopping off the heads for certain.  Seems like we should have seen Sam chop off his head and maybe even salt and burn his body for good measure. 

Seems like sloppy work there, BMOL :)

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I get that the flickering light was likely to show him dead...but vampire lore in SPN has always been they are killed by chopping off the heads for certain.  Seems like we should have seen Sam chop off his head and maybe even salt and burn his body for good measure. 

Seems like sloppy work there, BMOL :)

I don't know, they used the gun to kill that vampire in S1 and they didn't cut off his head. I'd definitely cut off his head for good measure, but I can't say if anyone on the show did or not.

[Geordiegirl1967]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Well, he saw the reenactment from Yellow Eyes in All Hell Breaks Loose and knew about the demon blood too. After Dean's account of things in In the Beginning (even if he left out the part where Mary made the deal) I think Sam figured it out.

Obviously he knows about YED feeding him blood and everything that followed. It was specifically Mary's deal I'm wondering about. Sounds like there's been no onscreen confirmation that he does. So if he knows it'll be because Dean told him. My view is that Dean would protect him from that, but seems we don't know for definite.

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Obviously he knows about YED feeding him blood and everything that followed. It was specifically Mary's deal I'm wondering about. Sounds like there's been no onscreen confirmation that he does. So if he knows it'll be because Dean told him. My view is that Dean would protect him from that, but seems we don't know for definite.

Right, that's what I said. We don't know for sure, but my own belief, not that the show has told me this in uncertain terms, but my own personal reading of the situation--that is my own interpretation, and by no means does anyone else have to think this--is that Sam knows. 

[rue721]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

In any case, the BMoL did come through for them with a gadget that worked exactly as advertised. But I think that's kinda the point, their gadgets perform; they just don't realize they need more than the gadgets to implement their "big" plans.

The egg performed, but the plan failed. I think we agree. I am just saying that I consider the tech a failure if it can't be implemented to actually get the job done. In this case, not only did they fail to get Lucifer in the cage, but they inadvertently helped Crowley intercept him. So using the egg may actually have set them back further, if anything. It's a different problem than if the gadget had literally broken apart in their hands or if they couldn't even get Lucifer expelled or something, but IMO it's not a smaller problem.

This is another issue with BMOL's lack of attention to defense IMO. Crowley can apparently hack their gadgets (albeit using good old social engineering this time) and can then use the BMOL's advances (i.e., the egg) for his own ends. He's not the only bad guy in the world, so I doubt he's the only one who would think to or who could do that. Hell, the hunters themselves could (and maybe should) do the same. To start with, they could steal some of the BMOL's tech and reverse engineer it.

You know, that makes me think -- Dean is actually pretty engineering-minded. The show is not going to go there, but I think it would be pretty fun if he started reverse engineering and tinkering with the BMOL's tech. And now I want to see the Winchesters engaging in some industrial espionage LOL.

Oh, and Rowena is another one whose mind seems to run in the direction of being able to tinker and reverse-engineer. She's another one the BMOL she be careful about exposing to their tech abilities, probably.

Anyway, I just don't get the BMOL. Their fundamentals, even in terms of stuff like research or surveillance, are embarrassing. So I have a hard time being impressed with their gadgets, which have not actually been useful in the field yet. Like great, you constructed this weapon that is theoretically awesome but that nobody actually has the skill to use, or that accomplishes things in such an opaque and incomplete way that actually creates bigger hassles than it solves. It also seems silly for people to waste their time troubleshooting or tinkering with tech instead of you know, actually focusing on their mission (aka, fighting monsters). Not that the tech is necessarily silly, but in this case, it seems like it's distracting the BMOL from their actual mission instead of helping them fulfill it.

It's hard to know what the BMOL's goals are, though. Are they really terrible at accomplishing their goals, or are their goals different from what they're saying? I can't tell. I lean toward the latter, but that's just because I don't like believing anybody is stupid. ;)

[ahrtee]

Someone help me out here--I have a very clear memory of Sam and Dean in the car talking (in a friendly, not angry manner).  Sam says something like, "Really?  Mom was a hunter?" and Dean says, "yeah.  You should've seen her. She kicked my ass!"  Sam says something like, "and all that just so Azazel could get into the house and bleed in my mouth," and Dean straightens up and says something like "how did you know that?" and Sam admits to the vision Azazel showed him in All Hell Breaks Loose (and said he'd known for "about a year," at which point Dean gets pissy.  I just can't remember when that conversation took place, and I can't find it in the early s.4 transcripts.  But that seems obvious to me that Sam knew about the deal, and that Dean had told him.  

Or am I hallucinating (or confusing reality with fanfic?)

[Wayward Son]

6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Someone help me out here--I have a very clear memory of Sam and Dean in the car talking (in a friendly, not angry manner).  Sam says something like, "Really?  Mom was a hunter?" and Dean says, "yeah.  You should've seen her. She kicked my ass!"  Sam says something like, "and all that just so Azazel could get into the house and bleed in my mouth," and Dean straightens up and says something like "how did you know that?" and Sam admits to the vision Azazel showed him in All Hell Breaks Loose (and said he'd known for "about a year," at which point Dean gets pissy.  I just can't remember when that conversation took place, and I can't find it in the early s.4 transcripts.  But that seems obvious to me that Sam knew about the deal, and that Dean had told him.  

Or am I hallucinating (or confusing reality with fanfic?)

The scene you're thinking of is from Metamorphosis. Here's the transcript for the scene in question (source: supernaturalwiki) 

 

Quote

INT. IMPALA - NIGHT

DEAN is behind the wheels and it seems they've been driving under silence for a while after DEAN has told SAM about what he found out in the past about their mom and family (episode "IN THE BEGINNING").

SAM I can't believe it. Mom, a hunter?

DEAN
I wouldn't have believed it either if I hadn't seen it myself. That woman could kick some ass. I mean, she almost took me down.

SAM How'd she look? I mean... was she happy?

DEAN
Yeah, she was awesome. Funny and smart. So hopeful.

He looks over at SAM for moment and then back on the road.

DEAN
Dad, too. Until of course...

SAM sighs.

DEAN
What?

SAM looks out his window.

SAM
Nothing.

After a moment he turns back to DEAN.

SAM
It's just, our parents. And now we find out our grandparents too? Our whole family murdered and for what? So Yellow Eyes could get in my nursery and bleed in my mouth?

DEAN goes a bit "huh..?" over that last statement, thinking about what he's told SAM about the past. He looks over at SAM.

DEAN
Sam, I never said anything about demon blood.

SAM looks guilty.

DEAN
You knew about that?

SAM still doesn't look at DEAN.

SAM
Yeah, for about a year.

DEAN looks out through the window again, eyes on the road.

DEAN
A whole year?

SAM
I should have told you. I'm sorry.

DEAN
You've been saying that a lot lately, Sam. But whatever. You don't want to tell me, you don't have to. It's fine.

SAM
Dean.

SAM looks over at DEAN, who's focusing on the road.

SAM
Whatever.

SAM sighs.
 

Edited March 4, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, rue721 said:

The egg performed, but the plan failed. I think we agree. I am just saying that I consider the tech a failure if it can't be implemented to actually get the job done. 

Dean and Sam didn't tell Ketch or Mick the plan. The BMoL didn't know they were trying to get Lucifer back in the cage, or that Lucifer was the angel they were trying to exorcise. All they knew was they wanted something to get an angel out of it's meatsuit. Perhaps if they'd told them what they were really up to they could've provided a better gadget? TBH, I can't blame the BMoL--even though I think they're overconfident asshats--for the failure on that one.

13 minutes ago, rue721 said:

This is another issue with BMOL's lack of attention to defense IMO. Crowley can apparently hack their gadgets (albeit using good old social engineering this time) and can then use the BMOL's advances (i.e., the egg) for his own ends.

Crowley didn't hack their gadget he hacked Rowena's spell. Basically the egg wasn't supposed to put Lucifer back in the cage, it was supposed to get Lucifer out of the president and then Rowena's spell was supposed to send Lucifer back to the cage. Crowley added something to Rowena's bowl that hijacked her spell. He did nothing to the magic egg; the egg itself worked entirely as designed. 

11 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Someone help me out here--I have a very clear memory of Sam and Dean in the car talking (in a friendly, not angry manner).  Sam says something like, "Really?  Mom was a hunter?" and Dean says, "yeah.  You should've seen her. She kicked my ass!"  Sam says something like, "and all that just so Azazel could get into the house and bleed in my mouth," and Dean straightens up and says something like "how did you know that?" and Sam admits to the vision Azazel showed him in All Hell Breaks Loose (and said he'd known for "about a year," at which point Dean gets pissy.  I just can't remember when that conversation took place, and I can't find it in the early s.4 transcripts.  But that seems obvious to me that Sam knew about the deal, and that Dean had told him.  

Or am I hallucinating (or confusing reality with fanfic?)

They did have a conversation in the car, but it's never outright stated onscreen that Mary made a deal. The conversation goes from Mary being "awesome" to Sam saying something about the demon blood and Dean realizing Sam knew about that already.

My belief is Sam figured it out even if Dean didn't tell him. Otherwise, I think he's kinda foolish not to have by now.

Edited March 4, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

The scene you're thinking of is from Metamorphosis. Here's the transcript for the scene in question (source: supernaturalwiki) 

 

Thanks!  I'd just found it a minute before, so you beat me to it.  I'm glad I'm not hallucinating!

@DittyDotDot, it seems to me that this line says that Sam knew that John had been killed (and brought back to life by a deal, "so yellow eyes could get in my nursery...")  And Dean told Sam about Mary and also (I believe) about the deal, though he left out the demon blood part.

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

SAM
It's just, our parents. And now we find out our grandparents too? Our whole family murdered and for what? So Yellow Eyes could get in my nursery and bleed in my mouth?

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, rue721 said:

You know, that makes me think -- Dean is actually pretty engineering-minded. The show is not going to go there, but I think it would be pretty fun if he started reverse engineering and tinkering with the BMOL's tech. And now I want to see the Winchesters engaging in some industrial espionage LOL.

That would be awesome!!

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Except that Dean is no longer a vampire. AFAIK it only works on his children i.e. Other vamp

For some reason, I have a recollection of him having a vision of the Alpha Vamp after he was de-vamped. I can't remember if it was s6 or s7. Unless I'm confusing it with something else. Hmm...

28 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

don't know, they used the gun to kill that vampire in S1 a

I thought they killed that handsome nameless demon in S1 with the Colt. Which vampire did they kill with it? I can't remember.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

@DittyDotDot, it seems to me that this line says that Sam knew that John had been killed (and brought back to life by a deal, "so yellow eyes could get in my nursery...")  And Dean told Sam about Mary and also (I believe) about the deal, though he left out the demon blood part.

I agree with you artee, I think it was said, but there is a long-standing belief that Sam doesn't know his mother sold him out because it has never been specifically said in-show. I'm not of that belief, but the belief is out there and I think it's just as valid an interpretation as mine. 

[rue721]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Crowley didn't hack their gadget he hacked Rowena's spell. Basically the egg wasn't supposed to put Lucifer back in the cage, it was supposed to get Lucifer out of the president and then Rowena's spell was supposed to send Lucifer back to the cage. Crowley added something to Rowena's bowl that hijacked her spell. The egg itself worked entirely as designed. 

The egg worked according to its design, but the design itself was flawed. It's not actually useful to expel Lucifer just to have him get intercepted.

Crowley used the egg to accomplish his own ends, by spotting the weak spot in its implementation -- that it wouldn't control or even track where Lucifer went once he was expelled. He was counting on the egg to be able to do what they said it would -- expel Lucifer, and was also counting on it creating a failure point by leaving Lucifer just drifting in the ether and vulnerable to his (Crowley's) own spell.

My thought is, OK, yeah the egg did this useless and incomplete thing perfectly. Who cares? The goal wasn't to expel Lucifer, it was to imprison him. They were using the egg as part of the plan to imprison him. They failed to imprison him. Therefore, use of the egg failed.

They don't have to scrap the idea of the egg entirely, but if nothing else, they need to give it some way of tracking where the expelled monster/supernatural goes after expulsion, and ideally, they should give it some way of directing the expelled supernatural directly.

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

For some reason, I have a recollection of him having a vision of the Alpha Vamp after he was de-vamped. I can't remember if it was s6 or s7. Unless I'm confusing it with something else. Hmm...

I thought they killed that handsome nameless demon in S1 with the Colt. Which vampire did they kill with it? I can't remember.

In the first episode we meet vampires. That's where they got the Colt from in the first place. The vampires stole it from Elkins and they stole it from the vampires.

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

For some reason, I have a recollection of him having a vision of the Alpha Vamp after he was de-vamped. I can't remember if it was s6 or s7. Unless I'm confusing it with something else. Hmm...

I thought they killed that handsome nameless demon in S1 with the Colt. Which vampire did they kill with it? I can't remember.

I don't think he had any other visions of the Alpha Vamp.  They did have that lovely confrontation in s.7.

John killed the handsome vamp (named Eli?) in Dead Man's Blood.  Dean killed the handsome nameless demon (Meg's brother/Azazel's "boy") in Devil's Trap.  So you're both right!

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

I don't think he had any other visions of the Alpha Vamp.  They did have that lovely confrontation in s.7.

John killed the handsome vamp (named Eli?) in Dead Man's Blood.  Dean killed the handsome nameless demon (Meg's brother/Azazel's "boy") in Devil's Trap.  So you're both right!

The demon was named Tom! I'm not sure if the vampire had a name though :)

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

The demon was named Tom! I'm not sure if the vampire had a name though :)

Ah, I knew the demon had a name, but I don't think it was mentioned in the ep (I think it showed up in meta or a transcript).

The vamp girl screamed the leader's name when he was shot.  I didn't look it up (too lazy this morning) but I *think* it was Eli.  

[DittyDotDot]

32 minutes ago, rue721 said:

The egg worked according to its design, but the design itself was flawed. It's not actually useful to expel Lucifer just to have him get intercepted.

The egg wasn't designed for Lucifer, it was designed to expel an angel from it's host. It's meant as a tool for hunters to save a human, not to trap an angel. The BMoL didn't even know they were trying to trap an angel or that the angel was Lucifer himself--they didn't know shit about what the Winchesters were up to. They gave the Winchesters what they asked for: which was something to expel an angel from it's vessel. Perhaps if they had been told it was Lucifer and they wanted to ultimately trap him, they could've provided a better gadget?

Basically, my point has been, Crowley found a flaw to exploit in the Winchester plan, not the BMoL--in this case, anyway.

25 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

The demon was named Tom! I'm not sure if the vampire had a name though :)

Actually, I believe the vampire's name was Luther. This show, I tell ya! ;)

Edited March 4, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

Man, the more I think about it, the more I'm pissed if they really did kill the Alpha Vamp.  He did help them to take out the Leviathan with his blood and even gave up one of his children. And then he just went into retirement.  I dunno. I just feel like they should have set up the Alpha to do something shady to warrant killing him but he was kind of laying low. I dunno, taking out the Alpha this way...it's not very much fun, IMO. I mean I'm not saying he was a good guy..but I dunno, he was an awesome foil played by a fantastic actor.

BOO I SAY BOO!!!!

Stupid BMOL. Fucking up the natural order. LOL

Wouldn't this kind of create a power vacuum amongst the vampires. I mean someone is going to want to be head vampire now that maybe the Alpha kept them all  in check with the "cops and robbers" lifestyle. .

 

 

15 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I don't think he had any other visions of the Alpha Vamp.  They did have that lovely confrontation in s.7.

I remember the confrontation with him in s7. Maybe I've got those episodes jumbled up. Thanks!

Another missed opportunity: Dean should have been able to have a final word with the Alpha.  Pfft. Whatever.

[ahrtee]

18 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

 

Actually, I believe the vampire's name was Luther. This show, I tell ya! ;)

I think you're right.  Like I said, too lazy to verify this morning (I'm a disgrace to my profession :) )

ETA:  Eli was the vamp in Bloodlust.  At least I had the right species (?)

Edited March 4, 2017 by ahrtee
Fact-checking is a sickness.

[DittyDotDot]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Wouldn't this kind of create a power vacuum amongst the vampires. I mean someone is going to want to be head vampire now that maybe the Alpha kept them all  in check with the "cops and robbers" lifestyle. .

Well, according to the BMoL, there's only 10 left... even less now after the raid. ;)

Personally, I think the whole plan of the BMoL was foolish. Even if they had succeeded, it doesn't wipe out vampires everywhere and they can make more, very easily. They keep this up and they might find themselves fighting a war on every monster front, and I don't think they have enough gadgets for that.

8 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

ETA:  Eli was the vamp in Bloodlust.  At least I had the right species (?)

You mean Benny, on furlough from Purgatory, right? ;)

Edited March 4, 2017 by DittyDotDot