S18.E12: No Surrender

[WendyCR72]

Quote

Fin revisits his military roots when a fellow Army Ranger struggles to recover from a sexual assault.

[angel1008]

Barba is the main reason I still watch!  Not having him on is so disappointing.

[MikeWhitf87]

Wow another month until a new SVU?! This is getting ridiculous!

[Spartan Girl]

Ok, it was good Beth came forward to testify at the end, but I'm really getting sick of Liv's high horse.

[sockii]

Well, so much for that Fin-centeric episode exploring his past with the Rangers, eh?

/sarcasm

[CleoCaesar]

Wait what was that, an episode or a 40-minute PSA? It felt like a 10-minute storyline stretched out to four times that. What happened to episodes that showed detective work, plot twists, interesting guest stars, etc.? This felt so rote and by the book.

[SuzieQ]

18 minutes ago, sockii said:

Well, so much for that Fin-centeric episode exploring his past with the Rangers, eh?

/sarcasm

Exactly!! He didn't have much more screen time than any other episode.  Maybe an extra 2 lines <eyeroll>

[DB in CMH]

30 minutes ago, MikeWhitf87 said:

Wow another month until a new SVU?! This is getting ridiculous!

No kidding! We're 4 episodes off the pace from last year. I know they dumped the Trump episode, but was the episode order cut?

[angel1008]

Liv was getting on my last nerve tonight.  I don't know of very many rape victims who come forward with their NAME to be splashed all over the news.  I mean, they usually keep that under wraps for the victim's privacy and safety. 

I really wish that the show could go back to the old way.  For TWO WEEKS there has been no Barba.  I miss the solving of the case and the court case after it.  I miss the psychiatric aspect as well.  This show is so Benson centric since she became EP.  I like Mariska, but this is so past what the show was all about.

[WendyCR72]

Sorry, gang! Merging snafu on my end. Title restored as it should be!

[WendyCR72]

Why do I get the feeling - even with still "okay-ish" ratings - that SVU will do a Mothership and be moved to Fridays next season? Either way, I agree that the airing pattern is...odd.

NBC seems to be relying on the diehards willing to ride out another hiatus, but this seemed to happen as the Mothership aged, too.

[ForeverAlone]

Weren't we promised some good Fin in this episode as he had the Army Ranger connection with Beth? I think we were, though we got about the same amount of Fin as most episodes (i.e. not enough). I guess we couldn't have more Fin, because that would have taken away from the Olivia scenes.

Overall I liked this episode, though I agree that the Saint Olivia PSA message was laid on rather thick. For me, this was a good episode emphasizing actual investigation, and it wasn't OBVIOUS who the perpetrator was (though I can't say I was SHOCKED that it was the ex boyfriend). I enjoyed the Carisi and Rollins professional dynamic and they worked well together. 

I was initially afraid that the writers were making Beth a robotic cyborg soldier, but in the end, it seemed to be more of a defense mechanism to deal with her trauma, and that is understandable. I assume that Barba elected not to charge Beth with assault (understandable, though off screen). 

That ex boyfriend was some piece of work. He had some serious rage and masculinity issues. And he lied SO smoothly to Carisi with no hints of anything amiss. That man is dangerous with a lurking undercurrent of sociopathy underneath the nerdishness.

Edited February 23, 2017 by ForeverAlone

[wknt3]

The Good:
The whole squad was involved.
They remembered Fin has a past and a life outside the squad.
They didn't treat the military as the bad guys determined to cover things up no matter what and the depiction of a woman in the military was pretty good given some of the past clunkers throughout the franchise.
No mommy drama!

The Bad:
While the whole squad was involved they might as well have given Carisi and Rollins the week off. It might be better to do what the did before and just have characters skip a week if they are basically Profaci or Cordova with an opening titles credit.
No Barba again.
The whole thing just felt kind of meh. I'm not sure if was the guest cast (with the exception of the victim) the script or what, but it just seemed flat to me and I'm not sure why.
After a week of letting the ensemble shine and promoting this as a Fin story we get another episode dedicated to St. Benson. There were maybe a couple scenes that touched on Fin's past and the conversation with the major where it seemed that his experience and knowledge where guiding things. Otherwise he was just there adding a dash of insight while Benson saved the day again. I mean I know we just got a Carisi episode, but Benson wasn't exactly back burnered and the hugely promoted 400th episode was a monument to Mariska's ego. Is it really too much to ask that they actually let Fin be the one to get through to the victim? Or get to see the Rangers be impressed that he served in Mogadishu? Is it really too much to ask Mariska to share the spotlight for two episodes in a row?

Overall this was a dud. It wasn't bad per se, but this season basically lives and dies by if there is enough there to distract me from Mariska's ego and preachiness. And there just wasn't. It had the potential to be solid and maybe even good if they actually gave us the Fin story they promised. But instead we got a mediocre episode of Law & Order: Benson Saves The World,

Edited February 25, 2017 by wknt3
fix typos and clean up phrasing

[QueenMab]

Well, only half way through and this is a piece of crapola. I love it when Olivia tells a victim she shouldn't be embarrassed about being assaulted and raped and having her name splashed all over the world and having her career and rep and everything she worked hard for crash and burn because Olivia thinks " there's a predator out there"  and that's more important than the woman's whole life. High Point: when Benson called her by her first name and asked if she minded...."I prefer to be addressed as Captain, mam". Maybe Barba is off solving that "devastating secret".

[ForeverAlone]

2 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Why do I get the feeling - even with still "okay-ish" ratings - that SVU will do a Mothership and be moved to Fridays next season? Either way, I agree that the airing pattern is...odd.

NBC seems to be relying on the diehards willing to ride out another hiatus, but this seemed to happen as the Mothership aged, too.

That's what's interesting. Right now, while SVU's ratings are "okay-ish", they are definitely comparable to their timeslot (and likely fandom) competitor, Criminal Minds. For years, CM blew SVU out of the water when it came to the ratings, but the past couple years, while CM has a bit more overall viewers (though not THAT much), they are basically the same when it comes to demo. SVU has been reasonably consistent, though still on the low side, while CM has steadily shed viewers, at least live viewers.  I hope they keep it on Wednesday, though I wish they would move it back to its 10 pm/9 pm slot. 

[Snookums]

Well, I did like some of this. The actress playing Captain Williams was very good; she did a great job of trying to repress her trauma beneath the veneer of "the perfect soldier."  How she couldn't, wouldn't believe that her fiance, the man she's known all her life and still cared for, could have turned on her with such savage viciousness. How there really is no safe space in the world for women, no matter how tough or trained or ready.

 Loved the shaved head too. They didn't soften her look and that was great.

Also, The Usual Suspects--her CO and her old teacher, were NOT at all involved, thank God. When her commanding officer was giving that speech about how much he respects the soldier she's become I was muttering "PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE NOT HIM" because I'm just so sick of the supposed support in the victim's life turning out to be a piece of lying shit. 

And that snaky little shitweasel of a supposed caring significant other: wow. WOW. The loser troll guy was pathetic and obviously trying to make all of his terrible choices part of his Majestic Story or whatever but at least he owned his hate to a certain extent. Unfortunately, there's way more of Mickey's type out there--seems totally normal but with this toxic stew of self doubt and anger just simmering away.

Again with no Barba! I'm assuming this is one of the episodes shot while Raul was off filming another project but come ON.  Also with the "new episode every month and a half" crap. There's whetting the appetite and there's having your audience throw up its hands and take off.

[WendyCR72]

13 minutes ago, ForeverAlone said:

That's what's interesting. Right now, while SVU's ratings are "okay-ish", they are definitely comparable to their timeslot (and likely fandom) competitor, Criminal Minds. For years, CM blew SVU out of the water when it came to the ratings, but the past couple years, while CM has a bit more overall viewers (though not THAT much), they are basically the same when it comes to demo. SVU has been reasonably consistent, though still on the low side, while CM has steadily shed viewers, at least live viewers.  I hope they keep it on Wednesday, though I wish they would move it back to its 10 pm/9 pm slot. 

Yeah, but I think a lot of that had to do with the Thomas Gibson debacle. Not saying SVU holding up against Criminal Minds isn't laudable, but Gibson was arguably the draw of the series and his ouster so far in likely hurt the show. CM did survive Mandy Patinkin (he who quits everything or so it seems!), the original marquee character/name, but the show was in its infancy, too.

I think an apt comparison for SVU would be that it survived losing Chris Meloni...but - and as much as her character annoys me now, too - I'm not sure the show would weather losing Mariska Hargitay at this late date.

In any case, it will be interesting to see the ratings for the next new SVU episode after another break! It's like NBC is trying to kill it on purpose.

[CelticBlackCat]

Another hiatus!  The next four weeks are to be taken up with the Chicago Crossover Crapfest.  Does anyone actually watch all those Chicago shows?  I started to watch the fire department one but gave up after the cute blonde chick got the handsome young fireman to be her sperm donor via the high-tech way because she was a lesbian yearning for a baby and couldn't conceive (pun intended) of actually having sex with him, but had her parents pay for the in vitro fertilization treatments at $10,000 a pop.  Tried Chicago P.D. too but was not liking the main older guy with the deep voice who has ethics issues.

[WendyCR72]

7 minutes ago, CelticBlackCat said:

Another hiatus!  The next four weeks are to be taken up with the Chicago Crossover Crapfest.  Does anyone actually watch all those Chicago shows?

Dick Wolf must. Between the L&O franchise (most incarnations still shown in constant repeats even if SVU is the last in first run!) and the Chicago franchise, he's set for 12 lifetimes instead of 6.  :-P

[Xeliou66]

Disappointing episode after 2 good episodes. It was another example of Mariska's huge ego hurting SVU. The episode felt like a PSA with Mariska/Benson spouting the typical "don't be ashamed, it's not your fault" lines that we've heard 10000 times, and Benson was extremely preachy and irritating once again. It would've been much better had Fin been the one to talk to Captain Williams, he could relate more because of his past. But Mariska will not allow anyone but Benson to talk to victims because Benson is the almighty heroine and the only person on the whole goddamn planet who can stop rape and help victims. 

The good parts were that we didn't know who did it and all the squad got to investigate, and the identity of the perp was surprising. I'm glad it wasn't the CO as well, and the online troll guy was an interesting character, unlikable but not exactly one dimensional or a caricature. No personal drama either. I also loved when Olivia got jumped for calling the victim by her first name, it's so rare anyone ever criticizes Saint Olivia that it's nice to see when someone does.

And I have to say, a month long break is a fucking joke. SVU is clearly in disarray with how the show is being run, and we've only had 12 episodes by the end of Febraury while last year we had 12 episodes by the end of January. There is clearly chaos, either the show runners don't know what the hell they are doing or the NBC network executives want to have fewer episodes, maybe so the Trump episode won't get aired. Also they care much more about promoting their new Chicago soap opera show than about SVU. Oh well, I will be watching Major Crimes on Wednesday nights now for the next month, that show is better than SVU anyway right now. 

[Gigi43]

Rollins and Carisi were really the ones to solve the case. Finn got to mention he was a Ranger. Liv vowed to get the guy, gave speeches  to the victim, was the one to repeat the Ranger mantra to her in one of her motivational speeches not the actual  former Ranger, and got the shot at the end basically giving her all the credit. Yeah,  no doubt this show has to  have Liv do everything even when the rest of the Squad contributes, it's still all Liv that makes justice happen. Please.

 

The reveal of the real Perp came so late (probably since if they knew earlier they might have to use Barba and have to write more than a bail hearing) and his motivation was kinda flimsy. I HATE to criticize just wanting to get a message across about a woman can be sexually assaulted and still be a strong figure because that IS important to get out there. But clearly that's all they wanted to do. "The fiancee did it because  of a break up" is lazy especially  since we saw so little of him in the beginning, then nothing, then oh he did it for reasons. It shows it wasn't really a crime story they had interest in telling. I am happy they didn't  have anyone in the army do it as I suspected they could be going there. Internet message hateful trolls are a subject  ripe for SVU but it seems they spent too much time on him, just to bring up that current topic that took away from the story  since it was a moot point. The speech at the end by Beth could have been a PSA but they were important words and the actress sold it.

 

Would a Ranger so consumed with image and not ruining her upcoming press tour really  be doing a Fight Club in the middle of the night?  Rape is not her fault, an illegal way to blow off steam, probably with people betting and beating up "civilians" could be more of a mark against her if the videos ever hit the net.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Gigi43

[gesundheit]

Fin could have been given literally all of Olivia's dialogue last night and it would've been just fine. And it would make more sense that a former Ranger and, frankly, a man (because of her field) could convince this woman that she won't be seen as less-tough if she opens up about her assault. Made no sense. "Manosphere?" Is that a thing? I know MRAs and all the Red Pill stuff is real, but I had to laugh at "manosphere." Could be real, though, for all I know. I certainly don't try to delve deep into that world! (Red pill dialogue was a little on the nose but, of course, "on the nose" is frequently SVU's bread and better.) Inwood's certainly been quite the crime site this season. I did get a chuckle out of that one Irish Pub being the "only place that's open late" in the area, though. That neighborhood has a major club scene, very much open late. I agree with all of you above who find the hiatus maddening.

[Primetimer]

Thy boredom come, thy chill be gone, inert as it is unleavened. ...An episode so egregiously sanctimonious and self-regarding, it forced a format change.

View the full article

[Xeliou66]

Good review. The episode was incredibly preachy and Benson was just unbearable, between her constant sanctimonious blather and Mariska's extreme overacting of the scenes. Like I said earlier, Mariska's acting is reminding me a lot of David Caruso's on CSI Miami, the constant over dramatic expressions, the solemn promises to victims, constantly being portrayed as a superhero who is always right, it's all similar. It was another case of Mariska's extreme influence over the show and it felt like a PSA for Mariska's foundation about helping sexual assault survivors. It was very disappointing that Fin had no more to do than usual and the fact that he was a ranger didn't even come into play at all, it was another Saint Olivia gets justice while delivering a sermon about rape. Fin should've been the one to be convincing Captain Williams to cooperate, he could've connected to her a lot better, I think she would've been more comfortable talking to Fin than listening to Benson's constant sermons about how she should act. Very disappointing episode, it seemed to have just as much preaching from Olivia as it did investigation. Mariska's huge ego has really harmed the show with numerous pointless, preachy PSA episodes such as this one. The writers don't seem to know what to do with a lot of the episodes so they let MH preach for an hour, and the show is definitely in chaos behind the scenes with its month long break. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

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Mariska's huge ego has really harmed the show with numerous pointless, preachy PSA episodes such as this one. The writers don't seem to know what to do with a lot of the episodes so they let MH preach for an hour, and the show is definitely in chaos behind the scenes with its month long break. 

Sigh, I'm starting to get a "The Good Wife" vibe about SVU. At least Mariska is still willing to film scenes with her co-stars.

Is it wrong that I was hoping the rapist would turn out to be the Major? But, I guess this wasn't the episode where they were going to dump all over the military for being insular.

[IrishPirate]

No Barba? I just saw a couple episodes of L&O where Esparza played the perp. How did he manage to rehabilitate himself?

[Snookums]

Quote

Would a Ranger so conamed with image and not ruining her upcoming press tour really  be doing a Fight Club in the middle of the night?  Rape is not her fault, an illegal way to blow off steam, probably with people betting and beating up "civilians" could be more of a mark against her if the videos ever hit the net.

To be fair, they did have her explain that her old teacher set it up so she could win the purse and pay for her mom's treatment--since it was experimental, insurance wouldn't cover it.  There could have been something in there about her working so damn hard and giving her all to the Army, and them cheerfully using her for a three month press tour to boost recruitment, but she gets so little financial reward she's got to rent her body out to make enough to help her family--but nope! I'm guessing the Armed Forces weren't too keen on being seen as using their best soldiers as show ponies. It's another example of a real and interesting point that had to be blunted against the most predictable story lines.

Quote

Manosphere?" Is that a thing?

Manosphere, red pills, all that crap is very real. Can't lay that on the writers; that's a complete and direct lift from MRA chatrooms. I do wonder how the Wachowskis, both of whom have transitioned to female, feel about having their movies co-opted in this craptastic manner.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Snookums

[SunnyBeBe]

As soon as this episode ended and before I read anything about it, I said, "What just happened?" That was a very odd episode.  It just seemed strange.  I must have seen every episode of SVU. (I've missed some of Criminal Intent and regular, but, not this one.)  I've never seen anything quite like it.  It wasn't just the Olivia worship either.  It was how the show flowed.  I guess the theory about production theories makes sense.

Please chime in, if I'm off on this.  Over the years, I wonder if Olivia has a list of the rape victims who went public, went to court, fought against big named defendants, alienated their families, lost jobs, lost money, lost careers, etc.  VS. those who didn't do it the way Olivia thinks is best.  I recall lots of the former who were not pleased with what happened. This instruction from Olivia of how great it will be, doesn't cut it with me.  Yet, Olivia really seems to believe her own sermon.  What is she, a practicing psychologist?  I suspect if we lined up the victims, there would be just as many who would want to through stones as Olivia as thank her.....but, she got those perps! lol

I also didn't buy the complete turnaround of the victim at the end.  So unrealistic.  And so nice of her to read that speech that Olivia wrote for her. And the girl in at the party in the beginning didn't resemble the one showed later. 

Also, when the jogger found her on the ground and injured, it appeared to be in a deserted area.  But, when Finn and Liv are talking in front of the ambulance, they are in a neighborhood with houses around. What's that about?

Edited February 23, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[balmz]

I was expecting at the end when it was revealed to have been the ex that the ex broke into the house planning to hold beth hostage or the mother and kill himself and beth but beth managed to break free and turn the tables on him, it would have made more sense if that had happened instead, also i was half expecting beth to suddenly die from  her head injury during the episode 

[SunnyBeBe]

Yeah, tv shows have this bad habit of often showing patients insisting they leave a hospital when they have serious injuries or need further treatment and/or observation, but, I've never seen anyone do that in real life. Most people would love to have proper medical care and don't sneak out against medical orders. AND when they do portray people leaving hospitals against medical advice, it's portrayed as this makes the patient STRONG or BRAVE, when in fact, it's foolish and negligent. I wish they'd straighten that out. 

[WendyCR72]

3 hours ago, IrishPirate said:

No Barba? I just saw a couple episodes of L&O where Esparza played the perp. How did he manage to rehabilitate himself?

Not sure what you're asking, but Esparza's other appearances in the franchise had him playing other characters, ironically, one was as (another failed) ADA on L&O: CI.

[wknt3]

16 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I think an apt comparison for SVU would be that it survived losing Chris Meloni...but - and as much as her character annoys me now, too - I'm not sure the show would weather losing Mariska Hargitay at this late date.

It definitely wouldn't if only because the network would cancel it. It's obvious that Dick Wolf and NBC believe the audience that is left is only there to see Benson's story to the end. There is no way Dick Wolf of all producers would allow an actor to become bigger than the franchise and basically give them creative control unless it was the only choice he had to keep the show going. And my opinion of NBC executives is about the same as David Letterman's, but I do believe that they can see that Mariska's ego is out of control and hurting the show and are allowing it because they believe she is the show.

Quote

In any case, it will be interesting to see the ratings for the next new SVU episode after another break! It's like NBC is trying to kill it on purpose.

Yeah I'm kind of wondering if at the highest levels they like the money it brings in for NBC Universal, the way it's a known quantity that provides welcome certainty for the bean counters, and all that other boring stuff while the lower level execs hate the demos, the lack of prestige, the obvious creative decline, and that they will never get credit for it since it's been around long before they got there and are trying to run it into the ground and justify cancelling it since reducing the budget hasn't lead Dick Wolf to end it on his own (I'm pretty sure he has a fallback plan of episodes with Mariska, PS, and a cardboard cutout of Ice T while he literally phones in his performance...)

[themightykazoo]

While a better episode than what we have been getting in recent weeks; something about this episode just seems to be off. After 18 years I think this month's episodes have been the coffin nail in my viewing of this show. I love this show watch it like an insane person but I gotta accept that it is just not there. It began as a cop ensemble show and now just feel like episodes are copied and pastied from earlier seasons just now they use worse actors, writers and PRODUCERS!! I too feel like it's gonna just gonna be allowed to air till hell freezes over. They have taken all the thought out of this show and it feels very basic. They knew people would watch it because it is L&O but there is absolutely no effort being put forth into this show now. I wonder if the staff gets together and says lets see what we can get away with on L&O next week and lets double whatever fans were complaining about in the last episode.

So been a great ride but I think this episode was the end for me. Too Bad.

[Xeliou66]

I disagree about this episode, a preachy Saint Olivia hour, being better than Motherly Love and Great Expectations, both of which I enjoyed. MH clearly has a gigantic ego and makes a lot of decisions about the writing of the episodes and the excessive Benson screen time. It's funny because there is a lot of anti Benson sentiment on the online forums but every almost every episode it is all Olivia and it never changes. It is clear the show is nothing more than a personal soapbox for Mariska, NBC doesn't care about it and would probably like for it to get canceled so the Trump episode would never air. Mariska is in charge of everything and whatever she wants goes

[skittl3862]

I 100% agree with Sarah D. Bunting's recap intro. Probably my least favorite episode ever. I'd rather watch all the episodes that are so upsetting to me that I purposefully skip them (Juvenile, Angels) than sit through this again. I'd rather watch a Dani Beck episode.

So many lines of dialogue had me literally cringing. Beth's repeated mantra about her "mission" and "what's my mission" and "soldiers need a mission" was so cloying. I've known people who are career military in the past. They're still functional human beings in their private life and daily conversation. It's not all fed through a solider-speak robot filter.

The scene at the MMA gym was also pretty terrible. When Rollins and Carisi confront the gym owner and he says "I don't want to betray anyone's privacy." Rollins responds "This is a rape case. We're beyond privacy."

First of all, who writes this pablum? Second of all, was Rollins absent the day they learned about the 4th-6th amendments? They're confronting a business owner about hosting a possibly-illegal fight club and definitely illegal gambling, and he's hesitant to release a list of all the attendees (no mention of needing a warrant, of course, even from almost-lawyer Carisi). She basically says individual liberty doesn't matter because of her rape case. In the real world, those attendees would probably get a harsher punishment for the illegal gambling than her ex would be if he were convicted for the assault.

And Benson. Ugh. I generally can tolerate the preachiness, but this week. Jesus. She made such a huge deal about Beth needing healing and closure, then proceeded to lecture Beth at every step. An Army Ranger is obviously going to have very different coping mechanisms than the average drunk sorority girl Benson usually deals with. She lectured Beth on coping, got mad that she confronted her fiancé, got mad she didn't show up for to court, tracked her down on the army base to lecture her about how she should testify and "come out" publicly as a rape victim because it will help her heal, and then topped it all off with the "You can call me Beth" shit and Benson nodding during the press conference- I could go on for paragraphs, but it was all so fucking sanctimonious.

This episode reminded me of Touched by an Angel or 7th Heaven or one of those feel-good family schmaltz shows where there's always a unrealistic happy ending. Not the gritty drama this show used to be. Give me a serial killer pedophile whose mother molested him over this shit any day.

Edit: I didn't even notice "RedChanIt" until I saw it in the recap. What on earth? Why? Just make up a fake website and we'll all get the point. What's next? Streaming shows on Netlu? Ordering a car on Lyfber?

Edited February 24, 2017 by skittl3862

[ForeverAlone]

My initial response when watching Beth was cringing, because of the over emphasis on soldier talk about her needing a mission. Because yeah, that is not how soldiers talk, even combat arms soldiers. At the end, I figured maybe that was her coping mechanism to deal with the trauma, and that is the only way I can give that characterization a pass. Of course this show has a history of getting the military wrong in its stories, though it was not as horrible as "PTSD" back in season 10. 

I think the producers and writers have a blind spot when it comes to the audience's embrace of all things Olivia. You can see it in their social media, where they practically canonize Olivia and Mariska in every one of their posts and they emphasize Olivia over all other characters, even though those characters have sizeable fanbases in and of themselves and are sick of their favorite characters getting short changed to continue to put Olivia on a pedestal. I get that there are definite parts of the fandom who worship at the altar of Olivia, but I wager there is just as many fans who want a more ensemble feel to the show. 

[Xeliou66]

Absolutely right, I'm so sick of cliched scenes where the victim tells their story and MH nods along with an overdramatic facial expression. Like I say, MH is reminding me more and more of David Caruso and how he portrayed Horatio on CSI Miami : overly dramatic facial expressions, solemn promises to victims to get justice, condescending, preachy tone, dominating screen time at the expense of all other characters, and basically being portrayed as a superhero that is never wrong. The same can be said for Benson. The difference is, CSI Miami and the CSI franchise in general was always about style over substance and never very realistic, so it was just a part of the show and Caruso's overacting felt like a trademark. SVU has always told strong and realistic stories, and so Benson/MH's overdramatic posing and statements are very cringeworthy and out of place.

This wasn't the worst episode ever, not even the worst of the season IMO, that would go Imposter, where Benson bullied Barba into prosecuting a case that clearly wasn't a rape to advance her agenda, or maybe even the one with Rollins' sister where they gave the stupid and offensive bipolar explanation to excuse her sociology sister killing people. Overall the worst episode of SVU would be one from the final Stabler years, one of the ones that felt like a parody of SVU than SVU, candidates include Bombshell, Wildlife, Branded, Wet, Lunacy. However those episodes at least were funny in how excessively stupid they were written, something this one and the other recent sanctimonious Benson episodes haven't been.

You are absolutely right about how the heads have such a blind spot about the fans true feelings about MH/Olivia. They act like that all fans worship her and view her as their hero and want her to be front and center nonstop when there are just as many fans who think this is SVU not the fucking Saint Olivia Benson hour and want a more ensemble drama like it used to be and Barba, Fin and Carisi have lots of fans as well who would like more of them (no one cares about Rollins IMO, the majority of fans dislike her). There are just as many fans who want less MH/Benson as there are fans who worship at the alter of MH. 

Edited February 24, 2017 by Xeliou66

[skittl3862]

54 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Overall the worst episode of SVU would be one from the final Stabler years, one of the ones that felt like a parody of SVU than SVU, candidates include Bombshell, Wildlife, Branded, Wet, Lunacy. However those episodes at least were funny in how excessively stupid they were written, something this one and the other recent sanctimonious Benson episodes haven't been.

See, to me, those episodes are bad, but they're camp, so I can still re-watch them, roll my eyes and laugh at ProstituteBenson or SwingerBenson or ShroomsBenson. This episode was just irredeemably bad.

Edited February 24, 2017 by skittl3862

[ForeverAlone]

Hmmm...which to choose? Campy, over the top SVU or preachy, sanctimonious Olivia? It is amazing how different the later Neal Baer years (8-12) are from the Warren Leight years (13-17). Overall, I prefer 13-17, just because 8-12 was more about piling on twist after twist until it barely resembled the story that started the episode. I appreciate the straight forward nature of the cases of 13-17. Plus, there is Barba, who is the character most responsible for getting me back into the show after Christopher left. HOWEVER, the biggest drawback of the Warren years was pushing Olivia to the forefront to the detriment of the rest of the ensemble, putting her on a saintly pedestal, and giving her way too much unnecessary personal drama (baby and boyfriend are good, but why does everything about them have to be so freaking complicated)? And now it almost seems like all Olivia all the time, even when the show teases episodes that are supposed to feature the other characters more. Even when it's supposed to be about them, somehow it gets turned back into how it affects Olivia. But that is not likely to change, because it seems like Mariska has more power than the actual showrunner (or he just worships the ground she walks on at the expense of the other characters and actors). 

Edited February 24, 2017 by ForeverAlone

[Sarah D. Bunting]

That's what I was saying. Those you can laugh at; this was both annoying and boring.

I feel like I would get along gangbusters with MarHar personally, if we were just splitting a bottle of Barolo and playing cards, and that she wants to do right by what this role means vis-a-vis her public persona, but that she truly doesn't get how this saintly Lt. Mary Sue portrayal is not working for her or the show, and may not see another way to do things. But I was watching S2 reruns over the weekend and it's like another character completely. She was allowed to get it wrong sometimes and not be perfect on all fronts 24/7. And other characters got to call her on her shit. (Related: I miss Munch.)

[ForeverAlone]

Yeah, I think the show did suffer with the loss of both Munch and Cragen. They both provided a measure of "adult supervision" to the squad, a nice dose of reality, AND a deep knowledge of police politics. 

Calling Olivia on her shit is one of the main characteristics I love about Barba. I HATE it when he is muzzled or turned into her lapdog fighting her battles rather than making his own judgment calls. I also hate it when she has a part in any sort of legal meetings when it should be all Barba all the time, doing his damn job. 

[Xeliou66]

Lots of good points being made here. I like the Warren Leight years better than the Neal Bear years as well, because the Leight years were much more realistic and straightforward while in the Bear years the show just piled on outrageous twist after twist to the point of the show being a parody. Warren brought the show back to what it was in its best years and seasons 13 and 14 had some great episodes and were almost as good as the shows golden years in seasons 2-7. Season 15 was when it got weaken, Munch and Cragen left and they were 2 of my favorites and most people liked them as well, and they never let personal biases or agenda's get in the way of cases and they weren't afraid to play devil's advocate and argue an unpopular opinion. Without them and with Benson in charge, Benson started dominating the screen time and jumping other characters who disagreed with her and her "the woman never lies" view. Also giving Benson a kid was stupid, and I don't give a fuck about her constant circle of law enforcement boyfriends. Her personal crap got too much screen time. And it's pretty clear that Mariska has jumped at the chance to push PSA messages in episodes and to portray Olivia as an all knowing saint who is the only one who can stand up for women and bring rapists to justice. It is very irritating how everything has to be about Olivia and how MH acts like she's in a soap opera with overdramatic expressions when something goes wrong and then she has to save the day. The current writers seem to be in disarray and don't know what to do and are just letting MH call the shots

[Gigglepuff]

Shut up, Liv. She gets worse every episode. 

[themightykazoo]

1 hour ago, skittl3862 said:

See, to me, those episodes are bad, but they're camp, so I can still re-watch them, roll my eyes and laugh at ProstituteBenson or SwingerBenson or ShroomsBenson. This episode was just irredeemably bad.

I think the parody episodes are awesome. Some more than others. It was so over the top and just wild that you could never guess what would happen next. It was fun to watch though. Many times I felt like I was watching something that could only happen in the L&O universe and I loved it for that. I tuned in to get that clang clang feeling. Went from a show that was like ok that makes sense I could see how they got to that part from there to a show where you were like WTF How did that happen but where you didn't leave during commercial breaks because you couldn't afford to miss a twist. Now the show is not even doing that.  I wish I could talk about this show without complaining.

 

19 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Lots of good points being made here. I like the Warren Leight years better than the Neal Bear years as well, because the Leight years were much more realistic and straightforward while in the Bear years the show just piled on outrageous twist after twist to the point of the show being a parody. Warren brought the show back to what it was in its best years and seasons 13 and 14 had some great episodes and were almost as good as the shows golden years in seasons 2-7. Season 15 was when it got weaken, Munch and Cragen left and they were 2 of my favorites and most people liked them as well, and they never let personal biases or agenda's get in the way of cases and they weren't afraid to play devil's advocate and argue an unpopular opinion. Without them and with Benson in charge, Benson started dominating the screen time and jumping other characters who disagreed with her and her "the woman never lies" view. Also giving Benson a kid was stupid, and I don't give a fuck about her constant circle of law enforcement boyfriends. Her personal crap got too much screen time. And it's pretty clear that Mariska has jumped at the chance to push PSA messages in episodes and to portray Olivia as an all knowing saint who is the only one who can stand up for women and bring rapists to justice. It is very irritating how everything has to be about Olivia and how MH acts like she's in a soap opera with overdramatic expressions when something goes wrong and then she has to save the day. The current writers seem to be in disarray and don't know what to do and are just letting MH call the shots

I wonder if the writers are even aware of a problem with their show. Are they all drinking the Mariska kool-aid? People have to tell them that they are putting out a crap product and yet for them to continue to do so would mean that someone somewhere is telling them they are doing good work and they aren't. I think SVUs past made it such a powerhouse of TV to where that everyone I know says they love the show. I have never met anyone who didn't like L&O. I think this has given a false message to studio higher ups that their show is good when it is just the back catalogue that people talk about with me when we mention it.

[skittl3862]

13 hours ago, Sarah D. Bunting said:

I feel like I would get along gangbusters with MarHar personally, if we were just splitting a bottle of Barolo and playing cards, and that she wants to do right by what this role means vis-a-vis her public persona, but that she truly doesn't get how this saintly Lt. Mary Sue portrayal is not working for her or the show, and may not see another way to do things. But I was watching S2 reruns over the weekend and it's like another character completely. She was allowed to get it wrong sometimes and not be perfect on all fronts 24/7. And other characters got to call her on her shit. (Related: I miss Munch.)

Yes. I don't know if it's, like you said, Mariska's public persona and charity work for rape victims, or just recent societal attention and shifting attitudes towards rape reporting and prosecution, but the show has changed and Benson has changed. I don't want a weekly PSA about rape culture where Super Benson saves the day with a fairy tale ending. It seems like in recent years, there's become a vocal fanbase (especially on Twitter) that feeds into this kind of girl power/survivor mindset that idolizes Olivia Benson, and I think Mariska and the writers think they have to pander this.

I miss the episodes where they found a dead hooker in an alley and just worked the case. I can't imagine they would ever do that kind of episode these days. It's not empowering and Benson can't have a heart-to-heart about being a survivor if the victim is dead. If they even tried, we'd end up with a hooker with a heart of gold paying for her mother's cancer treatments, and Benson would convince her to stop turning tricks and go to nursing school by the end of the episode. Or possibly cure the cancer herself.

Edited February 24, 2017 by skittl3862

[Xeliou66]

I agree, the writers seem to be only listening to Mariska and her devoted fans, because they act like that the show is Benson only, just look at their social media posts, it's all Benson and MH. I think that SVU and the L&O franchise are so popular and have been around for so long that they just aren't putting in much effort now. SVU is still popular but I think NBC wants it to fail because there is a war on procedurals by the big networks and the thought of the Trump episode ever airing scares the hell out of NBC, and the current writers are just clueless and have no idea what to do or how to run the show it seems. They think that all SVU fans worship the ground Mariska walks on and cares more about Benson than anyone else, they seem oblivious that SVU has always been an ensemble drama and that fans want more of Barba, Fin and Carisi. 

And you are absolutely right that the show panders to a specific crowd with their endless rape culture preaching episodes, and I think that they do this because it's what Mariska wants. There is a very vocal group of fangirls that worship Mariska/Olivia and want the show to be a female empowerment message instead of a crime show, and these fangirls tend to be young females from big cities in their 20's with some hispter/SJW leanings that live pretty comfortably. And this is why we get so many cases where the victim is similar to the fangirls and the perp is some super rich, famous billionaire and it's a he said/she said case with only Olivia taking on the perp. I think they do this because they are pandering to these fangirls by doing episodes where someone very similar to them gets raped by a rich famous guy and the Olivia stands up for the victim and gets justice. The fangirls can relate closely to the victims almost every week which makes them worship Olivia more and more, that's who the writers are pandering to, by putting in all the preachy Benson comments and lectures and having all the he said/she said rape cases where no one believes the victim but Benson, and why they seem to deal so much with rich and upper class people now. It's very weird how this one vocal group of fans has so much influence over SVU

Edited February 24, 2017 by Xeliou66

[themightykazoo]

The SJW fanbase is not that large just very vocal. Most fans of a show won't sue the show if something bothers them during an episode sjws do. That vocal group of fans is also backed up by a mainstream media telling them what they are doing is right so it reinforces the behavior. This is a very fickle fan base where as soon as something isn't cool on FB or Twitter they switch to a different topic they can continue to protest. Hard pressed to think of a show that people with that PC mentality didn't set out to destroy or just water down the show so much that any message is lost but I guess that is their goal. Hard to experience real life when you are  watching it pass you by from the window in your safe space.

[WineCheeseChocolat]

Quote

Yeah, I think the show did suffer with the loss of both Munch and Cragen. They both provided a measure of "adult supervision" to the squad, a nice dose of reality, AND a deep knowledge of police politics. 

Agree, but even when they left, the rest of S15 wasn't that bad because there was still more balance among the cast and then Murphy came in for a little bit as the "strong adult leader" which was actually really interesting to watch because he had such a different leadership style than Cragen/Munch. Even the gawdawful Lewis arc was more watchable than this current crap because obviously it was Benson-centric but we still saw a lot of teamwork from the other members of the squad.

Having Benson/Stabler in the forefront for the first 12 seasons made sense because the Mariska/Meloni chemistry was legendary (even then I appreciated episodes that heavily featured the other cast like Manhunt and Guilt). But after Meloni left, the show should've shifted into a true ensemble, with no one as the lead. Benson/Stabler as leads worked for me, Benson by herself doesn't.

And as an episode-specific quip not yet covered: this is at least the third military rape episode that they've had. How did Benson not get that she should address the victim properly and not by her first name? This isn't brand-new stuff here!

Edited February 24, 2017 by WineCheeseChocolat

[ForeverAlone]

For the military protocol about names, there isn't any hard and fast rule, at least when dealing with interactions between military and civilian personnel. It all comes down to personal preference. Some military personnel want to be addressed by their rank and some have no problem being addressed by their first name. 

Edited February 24, 2017 by ForeverAlone

[sockii]

7 hours ago, themightykazoo said:

I think the parody episodes are awesome. Some more than others. It was so over the top and just wild that you could never guess what would happen next. It was fun to watch though. Many times I felt like I was watching something that could only happen in the L&O universe and I loved it for that.

Me too. As much as I can objectively know those episodes are bad, cheesy and over the top, they are still fun and (for the most part) rewatchable. How can you hate on "Wildlife", for instance, when it gave us the monkey in the basketball? I even enjoy "Lunacy" for Munch and the moon landing conspiracy bits.

The bad episodes now are just boring, frustrating, and tedious. There have literally only been 2 episodes this season I have the slightest desire to rewatch at all (Making a Rapist and Broken Rhymes, mostly for the better use of Fin in them). I was glad to see WL leave after seasons 16 and 17, but I feel like it's been a monkey's paw kind of bargain. Lately watching the show has felt more like a chore than something to look forward to at all.

(I'm still not sure I'd list this episode as worse than Intimidation Game, however. But it was actually bad in some similar ways.)

6 hours ago, themightykazoo said:

The SJW fanbase is not that large just very vocal. Most fans of a show won't sue the show if something bothers them during an episode sjws do. That vocal group of fans is also backed up by a mainstream media telling them what they are doing is right so it reinforces the behavior. This is a very fickle fan base where as soon as something isn't cool on FB or Twitter they switch to a different topic they can continue to protest. Hard pressed to think of a show that people with that PC mentality didn't set out to destroy or just water down the show so much that any message is lost but I guess that is their goal. Hard to experience real life when you are  watching it pass you by from the window in your safe space.

I see this even worse in parts of Tumblr fandom, where, to their minds, the show didn't start getting "good" until the last few seasons. They rant and dismiss the early seasons entirely just because, for instance, a character uses a word we now (rightly) consider a slur but 17 years ago that wasn't necessarily the case. They have no appreciation for looking at the show from the point of view of "look how far we've come in acknowledging things like trans identity, male victims of rape, healthy kinks" etc. All they hear is someone use the term "he-she" and therefore seasons 1-whenever are "problematic", not worth watching.

Sigh. Sorry for the sidetrack...But I'd rather a show that's occasionally dated in its use of language and attitudes than a constant SJW soapbox with no likeable characters, no interesting and different storylines, no actual drama to keep things engaging. And honestly I feel like there is plenty they should be complaining about with the current show instead, particularly with how Fin is treated, or generally ignored/ordered around when he's only second to Benson in seniority by ONE YEAR at the 16th. That's offensive to me, particularly in a case/episode such as this one where he absolutely should have taken the lead, and would have been better equipped to relate to Captain Williams.