When We Rise (2017) - General Discussion

[possibilities]

On 2/28/2017 at 6:31 PM, marymon said:

Cleve Jones was a sweet quiet maybe even a bit naive kid and then the next scene he was almost cocky in how he was being portrayed. 

You grow up fast on the streets. Also, once you're not hiding, and living with people who affirm you instead of wanting you to "get treatment" you become way more confident.

On 3/1/2017 at 2:22 PM, Dirtybubble said:

Maybe I'm being naive but I did not expect to see so much negativity within the LBGT community itself.

I wish I could say it's not accurate, but it is. I know some will complain that they're airing dirty laundry in public, or favoring one faction over another, but I actually appreciate that they're showing many sides of the movement, and different types of people. It would be way worse if they were white-washing it all and only choosing to show one side. They are trying to compress a very complex community and history into a few short hours of network tv, so obviously a lot os lef tout and glossed over and very much simplified, but I actually loved that some of the less mainstream points of view are at least shown, which I don't think has ever happened before that I am aware of, in a mainstream venue like this.

Overall, I loved it. It's done in a way that I think really makes it accessible both to people inside and outside the community. It will resonate for anyone who's lived it, and provides some way in for those who haven't. No, it's not perfect, but it's still way better than I expected and I'm seriously amazed it's on ABC!

Whoopi and (I forget his name-- one of the other big name actors) were interviewed about it on one of the late night shows this week... I wish I could remember which one. I really enjoyed hearing them talk about why they made some of the choices they did.

[possibilities]

I loved the first episode, and didn't like this one as much. It's not that it was bad-- it's not at all. It's just that I've seen the Harvey Milk and early AIDS stories told already (on tv and in film), so this was not as special to me as the first installment, where they were saying things that I hadn't seen (on tv) before. So this is not exactly a criticism, it's just about where I am in my personal media hungers at the moment.

One thing I personally have a really hard time with, but which definitely happens in real life so I have no problem with them portraying it, is the tendency for people to think that there is ONLY ONE RIGHT WAY to fight oppression. This leads to a lot of really stupid in-fighting. My experience is that it's actually more effective to have multiple approaches happening at the same time. So I had to have a little frustration tantrum when they were showing that stuff, even though I totally agree it deserves to be shown because it happens a lot. It's so destructive, though.

I love how the famous people are shown in the background and the less famous people are shown as central to the story.

I hope they put the women more in the center and don't just let us be important as supporters of the men. We did a lot more than just Clara Barton the ACT UP guys. I'm actually really worried this is where the rest of the series is headed, that it's going to be Angels In America with a few more ladies in support roles, and if it goes that way, it will feel like such a betrayal after the first episode hooked me in by being more even handed.

[possibilities]

Another thing I really appreciated is that the lesbian sex they show is not the soft-focus TV version where the only thing that ever happens is looking into your lover's eyes while touching her face as the lights fade to black, followed by a perky morning after scene with oversized pillows and sunlight streaming through billowy-curtained windows and you start to think whoever wrote this shit has no idea that lesbians are actually carnally capable, hot and heavy in real life.

So kudos for that.

I mean, it's ABC, I wasn't expecting them to show nudity or other very adult scenes, but they didn't hold back on the kissing and they didn't leave the impression they think lesbians are giggly or chaste, which seems to be the common trope.

[Silver Raven]

ABC is running a special tonight before Part 3, on the real life people.

[Irlandesa]

19 minutes ago, Silver Raven said:

ABC is running a special tonight before Part 3, on the real life people.

Drats.  I hope they put it up On Demand, which I'm sure they will, because my DVR is only set to record the movie.

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

Whoopi and (I forget his name-- one of the other big name actors) were interviewed about it on one of the late night shows this week... I wish I could remember which one. I really enjoyed hearing them talk about why they made some of the choices they did.

I know Whoopi and the creator, Dustin Lance Black, were on Seth Meyers' show.  Maybe that's what you're thinking of. 

[Sarah 103]

3 hours ago, Silly Angel said:

One wonders what little Annie's life will be like when she's her mom's age. Would that be almost nowish? God, how horrible to think all this crap is so recent.

I think so. Annie was born around 1977-1984, which would make her around 35-40. To your second point, that's part of And the Band Played On had such an impact on me. What struck me what was that it was all so recent. While I was very young when most of the events book were happening (and not born for some of the earlier parts), a good chunk of it took place within my lifetime. 

[Silly Angel]

50 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I think so. Annie was born around 1977-1984, which would make her around 35-40. To your second point, that's part of And the Band Played On had such an impact on me. What struck me what was that it was all so recent. While I was very young when most of the events book were happening (and not born for some of the earlier parts), a good chunk of it took place within my lifetime. 

Wow, right. So she'd have been old enough to march with Act/UP, or did she become a little Alex P. Keaton?

I remember the impact of And the Band Played On. Shilts wrote the book while AIDS was still a death sentence. It was horrifying to read it (in the house of my roommate and editor, who would die from AIDS a year later) knowing the carnage was continuing all around. It's nice to see that behind the scenes, people were mobilizing, agitating fast and hard, leading to the medical advances that have made the disease more manageable today.

One quibble I have with the show is that the men are almost entirely about Fight Fight Fight while the woman is torn between two lovers and Feelings Feelings Feelings. That's a reductive version, of course, and it was reconciled fairly quickly, but still, for a while I was like, "Damn, Roma. Dry your tears, pick up a megaphone and move on."

[maraleia]

Annie was on the doc special that's finishing up right now. She's fantastic and hot as fuck too. (Lesbian here). She's around 35 now.

Edited March 3, 2017 by maraleia
corrected Annie's age

[Shaynaa]

I wish ABC had advertised the special more.  I had no idea it was airing and only saw the last 5 minutes.

[maraleia]

5 minutes ago, Shaynaa said:

I wish ABC had advertised the special more.  I had no idea it was airing and only saw the last 5 minutes.

My DVR picked it up without me even needing to do anything. Sorry it didn't record for you.

[maraleia]

FYI- info about Richard Socarides (the guy who got the Clinton's to visit the quilt in this episode) and who plays him.

http://www.theatermania.com/off-broadway/news/charles-socarides-is-the-son-of-a-prominent-anti-g_80156.html

And Nightline's report on the series http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/rise-chronicles-struggle-lgbtq-rights-45849157

Edited March 3, 2017 by maraleia

[Primetimer]

Or is being normal just a new form of oppression?

View the full article

[biakbiak]

Does anyone know who was playing Carole Midgen because the internet and IMDB isn't telling me and it's driving me insane because she is so someone I should recognize. I even exted a friend who used to work for Carole to see if she knew but remembered she is in Australia and probably not up on the latest scoop.

ETA: I just screamed out in a scene she wasn't in "malaria something?" Which reminded me it was Melora Hardin.

[memememe76]

As a gay Canadian probably 20 or so years younger than the main characters, I never quite got why Americans were soooo angry at Clinton. I get it a little more but not really. But in many ways, the miniseries made the 90s seemed even more bleaker than the 80s. I always have fond memories of the 90s. 

They are real characters, so I have to ask why Ken and Richard did not add Ken to the house or get wills? And how did the actor who played Richard (loved him on Parenthood as Joe) lose weight so fast? That said, that scene where the asses threw Ken out of his own home made me soooo angry.

I thought young Diane was a dead ringer of Mary Louise Parker circa Fried Green Tomatoes so I was surprised that MLP ended up playing Roma.

Seeing Cleve's father turn around a little bit made my heart swell. 

And is TR Knight going to have a more prominent role tomorrow night? Weird he had such a cameo. 

And the President's staffer is fascinating. A whole movie could be made of that family.

[Silver Raven]

Older Cleve's boyfriend is the same guy who plays Jamal's boyfriend on "Empire".

Nice scene with Cleve's father getting him marijuana, and helping him with his medicines.

Jason, the guy from ACT UP, is played by drag artist William Belli.

Tom Ammiano ran for Mayor of San Francisco against Willie Brown, but lost.  He served in the state Assembly, but is now termed out.  Not sure what he's doing now. He's also a stand up comic.

Carole Migden went on to serve in the state Senate and Assembly. She got a heavy fine for illegal use of campaign contributions, and was not re-endorsed by the Party for re-election.

Ivory Aquino as Cecilia Chung is really great.

Richard Socarides left the White House to serve as a Senior Vice President at New Line Cinema.  He is now with a rather questionable financial firm. The actor playing Richard Socarides is named Charles Socarides.  Richard's brother maybe?

Man, Michael Williams as Ken LOOKS like an AIDS patient.

The guy at the end interviewing Cleve Jones is supposed to be Dustin Lance Black, but they never name him in the show.

It's more than ironic that just as tonight's show ended, they advertised George W. Bush being on the Kimmel show.

Quote

They are real characters, so I have to ask why Ken and Richard did not add Ken to the house or get wills? And how did the actor who played Richard (loved him on Parenthood as Joe) lose weight so fast? That said, that scene where the asses threw Ken out of his own home made me soooo angry.

See the documentary movie Bridegroom, about a gay couple, one of whom dies and the other is denied even the right to attend his funeral.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Silver Raven

[possibilities]

I'm hopeful it will all be streamable for anyone who misses it.

[memememe76]

I also think the dvd box will be quite impressive. 

[possibilities]

6 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I know Whoopi and the creator, Dustin Lance Black, were on Seth Meyers' show.  Maybe that's what you're thinking of. 

Yes! I'm pretty sure that was it. I'm watching too many shows lately, and not getting enough sleep, so my ability to footnote is fuzzy, but that sounds right.

[possibilities]

OK, so it's true: the show is now all about the dudes, and the ladies are afterthoughts wedged in to check a box all about traditional mom stuff and they can't even do that without their kid feeling like she desperately needs a dad.

P.S. some lesbians ran for office taking the gay seats because the gay guys died tragically but the survivor dudes were willing to help the dykes get elected since they were too weak to run a new crop o'dudes due all being too sick because of the plague and off screen the women had taken care of the dying dudes, but we only get to see the caregiving the dudes themselves did, since women are boring and not really important anyway and we take them for granted and who cares?

I guess we'll just have to do another series if we don't want to make everything the women do into some marginalized stereotypical sexist afterthought.

And trans representation follows right along, because apparently there was nothing going on for trans people either, other than the one we showed being saved by hero dude and then serving as support for him later on.

P.S. Thailand accepts trans women way more than the USA does, so let's make a so-quick-you-might-miss-it reference to that.

The gay guys suffered so much and are so giving and heroic and can do everything from win elections to rescuing babies to leading revolutions, and their marriages are devotional and noble and they love each other perfectly from start to finish and still they suffer! The bashings and legal cruelties are unceasing! OMIGOD HOW COULD WE LOVE THEM MORE?!

Meanwhile, the women are never attacked. They are not legally denied anything. They are even treated decently by the traditional habit-wearing stern-looking nun. Their only problems are the bland issue of whether to try to pass at parents' night to appease a bratty teenager, and it turns out that wasn't really necessary either. Such a glowing bubble of ease around these lezzies of leisure. Even their election campaigns are marred only by their own surliness and a few sexist jabs from the queer dude who delivers them the win. The charmed lives of dykes! It's like they actually think this is representation!

Oh, and the lesbians don't have families either. Or if they do, we forgot to mention it. Having babies is enough, they don't need parents like the other characters, ALL the drama of acceptance and reconciliation MUST be shown via the other characters. Remember, lesbians being nurses and moms is the only thing we do that matters, and pinch hitting local political offices til the gay guys can repopulate.

Grow up, dudes!

Other than that, great.

Even after all these years, I can't see a photo of Matthew Sheppard without bursting into tears.

I'm not saying the gay dude stuff isn't great. But don't tell me they put a few token stereotype helpmeets in for females, and that = representation. It's a huge insult to us, and it's a horrible disservice not only to US, but also to the educational agenda they claim to have. Anyone watching this thinking it's LGBT history is getting a very skewed view that tries to convince us all that it isn't skewed.

It would have been ok with me if they were honest, and just told it as what it is. But they thought they could sell it better if they convinced people it was going to be more inclusive than Angels in America, so they did a bait and switch.

And this is why some lesbians don't want to coalition with gay dudes. It's because of the sexism and taking advantage and dismissal.

Edited March 3, 2017 by possibilities

[biakbiak]

4 hours ago, Silver Raven said:

It's more than ironic that just as tonight's show ended, they advertised George W. Bush being on the Kimmel show.

I thought the most ironic cut to commercial breaks was when Dr. Marcus Conant telling Cleve he needed to unite with ActUp to get access to very much needed drugs cut to a random drug commercial.

I have met  nearly everyone involved in this series because I have worked and volunteered for political orgs and nonprofits in SF for nearly 20 years, so seeing their stories being  told to a larger audience fills my heart with joy. 

[marymon]

11 hours ago, possibilities said:

You grow up fast on the streets. Also, once you're not hiding, and living with people who affirm you instead of wanting you to "get treatment" you become way more confident.

 

 

It didn't play like that at all though.  It was from one scene to the next and no real time jump implied.

[Shaynaa]

So I'm still listening to Cleve's book.  He met Ricardo much later under different circumstances but they really did have the angsty come to Jesus moment in the morning about having HIV.  Cleve was given pot a friend, not his dad.  The baby stuff was dramatized for TV.  There was a neighbor who had a neglected baby but it was a family with a mom and grandmother.  He got involved to the point of turning a spare room in his place into a nursery.  He applied to be a foster parent but was tripped up by the question on the form asking what meds are in the house.  He ended up telling them and that was the end of that.  No clear explanation what happened to the baby. 

The movie also skipped over the NAMES Project drama.  So Cleve wasn't so involved in management at this point.  They hired a new director of the org who wanted to move it to Atlanta and put it in a museum.  Cleve thought it was like building a Holocuast museum in 1939.  He took it to the board of directors. none of whom has HIV and the board chair was an interior designer.  They fired Cleve.  I guess this may not be the most scintillating tv but I would have liked to see some of it.  I guess the HRC scene was a substitute for it, (also not in the book).

I was definitely unenthused by the Roma, Dianne and Annie story.  Surely lesbians were doing other activism in that time.  It just came across like they quit to became parents.  I get trying to show people trying to live a life but it had so much less meat than the stories the guys got,.

[biakbiak]

21 minutes ago, Shaynaa said:

I was definitely unenthused by the Roma, Dianne and Annie story.  Surely lesbians were doing other activism in that time.  It just came across like they quit to became parents.  I get trying to show people trying to live a life but it had so much less meat than the stories the guys got,.

Diane was a nurse and Roma was still running the Womens Building ie the scene where she uses her power over Shoshanna's battered womens space having affordable rent in the Womens Building to get her to go against her promise and find out who Annie's father was (which if anything the series undersells because the realization that it was Tom Ammiano of all people who was the father had to be gobsmacking) and both helping to get Carole Midgen elected to the Board of Supes.

[St. Claire]

18 hours ago, Silly Angel said:

Hard, hard, hard to watch the second half of this episode. It makes me see red when shows like Looking (which I liked) are all, "Yeah, Bill's positive, it's all good. Let's get brunch!" or refer to "some old Stonewall queen." (I forget which show said the latter.) Remember your history, people. Those who fought and suffered and died and whom the powers that be tried to throw in the dustbin of history allowed you to hold hands over Eggs Benedict.

My first real interactions/experience with hearing about the gay experience was when I was in college, 1990ish. I worked on campus doing sound and lighting stuff, and we have PFLAG conference on weekend for which I had to be on hand- I set up the microphones in the meeting rooms, be around if anyone was having problems with the A/V, etc. During a down moment in the hallway, one of the attendees was chatting with me, and he asked if I knew any gay people; he seemed satisfied with my answer of "I don't think so, but I can't be sure," (which I said because there are plenty of people I knew that may have just not told me). In the course of conversation, he noted that so many gay people of the time were bristling against the gay stereotypes, but that they really owed a lot to the leather boys and drag queens that they wanted to distance themselves from. It seems like a lifetime ago, now that I'm in an environment where the marriage pictures in our company newsletter have single-sex and mixed-sex couples and where the CEO flew a rainbow flag in front of our building after the Orlando shooting, but it really wasn't that long ago.

[hks]

I didn't want to watch this miniseries when I first heard about it. I thought it was going to be a cheesy trivialized Lifetime special type thing. This was based on NOTHING but seeing bits and pieces of commercials and thinking that ABC was trying to capitalize on all the activism going on by showing their own activism movie. Then, I read the review of the first part here, and checked out the second part - and I am really happy to be wrong.

[Sarah 103]

I can see the argument that it's sexist to give the lesbian couple the story about parenting, because it reduces women to their role as mothers. However, if these are the characters they are working with, and they want to show the challenges that same sex couples with children face, than the Roma, Dianne and Annie story is the best way to do it. None of the other characters they are following are in relationships where they are raising children.

When they showed footage from 1992 of the quilt on the National Mall, I cried. I've spent a great deal of time in D.C, and know how big the National Mall, so to see it covered by the quilt gave me a real sense of the magnitude. One summer I was interning in D.C, and when I found out the quilt was going to be displayed, some of the other interns and I went to see it on our lunch break. It was an amazing experience. If you have the opportunity to see the quilt displayed, please go. It is a moving experience.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Sarah 103

[MaiSoCalled]

15 hours ago, possibilities said:

I'm hopeful it will all be streamable for anyone who misses it.

It's on Hulu, they're putting up new episodes the next day, so you can still recommend it to others! 

[memememe76]

Further to Sarah's point, the second half of the episode centred around the theme of playing the game, being accepted by the majority by living a life similar to theirs but still being different (and not really being accepted for who you are). I think this was where Dianne and Roma played their part in the fabric. I also think it was interesting how they were in their own bubble--they live in a heavily Hispanic neighbourhood but do they even have Mexican/Hispanic friends? It's interesting how easily Roma used her power and position for her own personal purposes. I'm not judging, I just found it interesting. 

[possibilities]

I'm judging her for abusing her position to get what she wanted at the expense of the battered women's project! That was horrific behavior! Plenty of kids grow up without a dad. If she couldn't find out who he was without threatening people, she should have found another way to address her daughter's concerns.

[possibilities]

Does anyone know what kind of ratings it's been getting?

[maraleia]

Fun fact- I wrote a thank you letter to Judge Vaughn Walker after he ruled against Prop8 and he wrote me back. I know he actually wrote it because it was done on a typewriter and there was a typo.

[Primetimer]

And it feels good to seen.

View the full article

[memememe76]

This is the first piece of tv or cinema that has given me hope in a long time. I thank the creators.

[maraleia]

I sobbed when it was over. We still have so much work to do.

[Irlandesa]

Well damn if I didn't get a little teary eyed when they recreated the marriage equality decision. 

I found the mini-series inspirational. I only regret that more people didn't watch.  Overall, I think the activism parts of the mini-series were its strongest parts which is why I thought episode 3 was the weakest of the bunch because of all its focus on domesticity.  I was happy to see it return to Roma's activism regarding healthcare and the supreme court cases.  

I do think it was smart that skipped a decade of the AIDS crisis since it has been covered quite a bit with documentaries.  I do wish they had gone back to some earlier fights for gay rights but I know it wouldn't fit into the structure of wanting to focus on these three lifetime activists.  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I totally understand Annie wanting to know who her father is. A lot of adopted kids go through the same thing - they just want to know who they come from. Instead of forcing Shoshanna to find out who the father was, I wish that Roma had accepted what Shoshanna told her and passed on to Annie that the father's condition had been that they not meet until she turned 18. As much as it would have disappointed her to know she had to wait, at least she would have a specific date which would have been something for her to hold onto (and easier for Annie to accept than her mothers repeatedly telling her "We don't know who your father is").

On a practical level, I totally get why they cast older actors for Roma, Diane, Cleve, and Ken (who were all in their late teens/early 20s when the series began), it made me wonder if Sam Jaeger and Dylan Walsh were insulted or complimented at being allowed to play their characters throughout the episodes. I'm mostly kidding but I can imagine one of them thinking, "Are they saying I look ageless or that I look old the whole time?"

I had mixed feelings about the Roma/Diane part of the story in this episode because, as mentioned above, it does seem like the writers focused mainly on their family life rather than their activism (which was still shown but not to the extent of the male characters), but I think that because they were the ones with a child, it was the show's way of depicting what it was like, both from the parents' vantage point as well as from Annie's point of view, to be a family with gay parents. There is a common assumption that in later years, it's so easy and common and accepted to be LGBT in San Francisco but there is still prejudice so in that sense, I'm glad they showed that part of the story. Yes, it was easier to be LGBT in San Francisco in 2006 than it was to be LGBT in Arizona in 1972, but there are still prejudiced people even in San Francisco in 2017.

[Spartan Girl]

I liked how the postscript reminded us that the accomplishments of the LGBT movement (not to mention the rights of many other groups) are still under threat today. It ain't over yet.

I got a little teary at how once the court brought up kids, Cleve was bracing himself for all the "homosexuality threatens children bullshit"...and instead they used it to point out all the children with LGBT parents that want those rights for their parents.

[vixenbynight]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I liked how the postscript reminded us that the accomplishments of the LGBT movement (not to mention the rights of many other groups) are still under threat today. It ain't over yet.

I got a little teary at how once the court brought up kids, Cleve was bracing himself for all the "homosexuality threatens children bullshit"...and instead they used it to point out all the children with LGBT parents that want those rights for their parents.

DLB was smart in showing that young teen watching the news about marriage finally being allowed for all, yet still feeling that she had to quickly hide what she was watching from her parent. The struggle isn't over at all.

I'm also glad that the court finally realized what a bunch of hypocritical BS all of the marriage opponents and their arguments had about homosexuality and children. Those children basically felt and experienced that everyone treated them, their parents and families as less than and not worthy of recognition. That was trauma they unfortunately had to deal with for years.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Heh, I forgot to mention this last night: "Omar comin'!"

Even though I obviously knew how the court case ended, it was still stressful to watch.

I agree that the activism portions of the series were the strongest, but I understand why they included the relationship stuff too so that people can see the personal side of it and why it's important to fight for these rights. Just as Cleve was trying to win hearts and minds with the AIDS quilt, showing Roma and Diane's family served to illustrate that these rights aren't just an abstract thing - they're for people who aren't allowed into the hospital to see their partner's daughter after she has a baby without the nurse calling to ask permission (although for the record, I have strolled into maternity wards multiple times without being asked if I was family). Until Roma and Diane got married at the end of the series, they had no rights in situations like that which can be heartbreaking (like when one partner becomes ill and their biological family refuses to let their partner of decades even visit in the hospital).

Loved when the reporter asked the lawyer if he was taking this case because he knows someone who's gay and he said, "Yes, we all do." Even if no one has made it a point to announce their sexuality to you, odds are that you know gay people.

I definitely got teary eyed when Ken found Michael's name on the wall.

I think it was also important that they showed the generation gap when Cleve was arguing with the new kids about having a big musical guest at the DC march. In cases like that, there needs to be compromise on both sides. But I get Cleve's frustration because some of these younger activists grew up expecting their sexuality to be accepted because they didn't live through the older days where you could be arrested for being gay (it's similar to some of the younger women today who accept abortion and Planned Parenthood as things they should have access to because they weren't alive when women were dying from back alley abortions - related trivia: Eleanor Bergstein said one of the reasons she made Penny's abortion part of Dirty Dancing is because she wanted that generation to know how horrific things were before Roe v Wade).

I'm glad the show included the note at the end too.

There was a special showing of the entire mini-series at the Castro Theatre before it aired on tv. Although there was a 90 minute intermission between parts 2 and 3, I can't imagine how overwhelming it must have been to watch this all at once.

On another forum, a few people accused ABC of trying to jump on the bandwagon of recent months with this show, which is ridiculous since the show has been in development since 2013 and location filming in SF started last April.

[Sarah 103]

What struck me was how Cleve went from being a kid idolizing Harvey Milk (I still think the bit with the shoes on the table was probably my favorite single shot of the entire series) to being a leader and part of the older generation. I loved that they showed his evolution.  

[rcc]

20 hours ago, possibilities said:

Does anyone know what kind of ratings it's been getting?

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/daily-ratings/tv-ratings-thursday-march-2-2017/

0.5 is not too good.

[maraleia]

I recently had to talk an older gay activist here in Chicago off the ledge because he was griping about the way the younger peeps here do things. I told him to consider himself as an elder statesman who can be called upon to talk about the days before any kind of equality at all. He thanked me profusely. It's all a cycle as we saw in this miniseries.

See Carrie Chapman Catt vs the likes of Alice Paul and Lucy Burns when it came to women's voting rights.

[Silly Angel]

33 minutes ago, maraleia said:

I recently had to talk an older gay activist here in Chicago off the ledge because he was griping about the way the younger peeps here do things. I told him to consider himself as an elder statesman who can be called upon to talk about the days before any kind of equality at all. He thanked me profusely. It's all a cycle as we saw in this miniseries.

See Carrie Chapman Catt vs the likes of Alice Paul and Lucy Burns when it came to women's voting rights.

Such a great point. There has always been a divide between assimilationist and radical activism. We saw it in African-America history in the United States as well (Frederick Douglass vs W.E.B. DuBois; alas, only Douglass is alive, apparently, to discuss this).

It was nice to see all our heroes content after their long struggles, and what a fantastic roster of guest stars!

Just a quick note on Roe v. Wade: Abortion was not constitutionally illegal in all 50 states before Roe v. Wade. What the ruling confirmed is that the state had an interest in protecting the health of a pregnant woman and that the state cannot prohibit abortion in the first trimester. Before the ruling, abortion laws varied by state (Norma McCorvey was from Texas; 'nuff said). In 1989, Webster essentially threw the decision back into the states. So we are, to all intents and purposes, living in a pre-Roe v. Wade time.

Anyway, great episode; great series. The next time Chad Griffin pesters my inbox, I'll throw the HRC some cash.

[methodwriter85]

Was Annie's hairstyle big with Cali Hispanics in the 90's? It honestly bugged the shit out of me because that pouf hairstyle didn't show up on any of the girls around me or on T.V. until somewhere around the early/mid-2000's. When I picture 90's teen girls, I picture a lot of straight, layered hair. (If we're talking about when all those early 90's perms finally faded out.)

The reality is that if you want to depict families where a gay couple raised a baby who's now in their 30's or even 40's, you're looking at a lesbian couple because other than getting a sperm donor, there's nothing really stopping them from having kids. Gay men having kids through the use of a surrogate is a relatively recent phenomenon.

[Nokids]

On 3/2/2017 at 1:58 PM, starri said:

For the point of saying it, And the Band Played On is not an entirely factual account.  Shilts painted an early AIDS victim named Gaetan Dugas, who was a flight attendant for Air Canada as being Patient Zero who started out the initial clusters of infected by being promiscuous during his travels.  What bothers me more, he's also portrayed as basically wantonly, intentionally spreading it once they had finally nailed down what it was that was causing it.  Science proved he wasn't the former, and his friends said he was anything but the latter.  He was dead by the time the book was published, so I guess it was okay to libel him.

The medical side of the story is fascinating, as are the stories about how the early AIDS groups formed and the way the Reagan administration stuck their fingers in their ears and hummed, but I can't 100% recommend it because of that.  The medical stuff is a very big part of why I'm a doctor, though.

We Were Here and How to Survive a Plague are much closer to being the definitive account of the AIDS crisis.

A personal recommendation, the book and documentary The Celluloid Closet.  The book is 35 years old and the film 20, but it's a fascinating look at how homosexuality is presented on film.  The book's author, Vito Russo has been dead for many years, but I've always wanted his estate to give someone permission to update it.  There's a great documentary about him, called Vito, as well.

I really enjoyed the movie, Longterm Companion.

[maraleia]

1 hour ago, Nokids said:

I really enjoyed the movie, Longterm Companion.

Isn't it Longtime Companion?

[methodwriter85]

I'm not shocked. I just don't think the previews made this look like anything other than a preachy AIDS movie.

[avecsans]

I really liked Part 1; Part 2 less so, because I thought it devolved into a cliche-fest.  Part 3 has me scratching my head just because of the weird and arbitrary casting choices.  Younger Diane and older Diane look a little similar.  Younger Roma and older Roma, though? Not even close.  Same with older/younger Cleves and Kens.  And if they were recasting the main characters, why did they use the same actor for both Richards and for the doctor and Shoshanna?  That took me right out of the story.  (So did the horrendous CGI used to insert Guy Pearce onto the Mall next to the Clintons.) 

Ken's story is heartbreaking and makes me afraid of the future in the new world order that we're living in.

[Sarah 103]

23 hours ago, Silly Angel said:

Abortion was not constitutionally illegal in all 50 states before Roe v. Wade

Correct. It varied state by state. It was illegal in Texas, but legal in New York. What Roe v. Wade did (or was supposed to do) was create a uniform guide/code for all of the states. The decision was supposed to indicate what kinds of restrictions were constitutional, and when during the pregnancy limits on abortion were constitutional. You skipped Casey where the standard became "whether a state abortion regulation has the purpose or effect of imposing an "undue burden," which is defined as a "substantial obstacle in the path of a woman seeking an abortion before the fetus attains viability." (https://www.oyez.org/cases/1991/91-744) The most recent case, Whole Woman’s Health v. Hellerstedt, created a new standard. A restriction on abortion must have a medical/safety reason for existing. The regulation must in some way exist to protect the life or health of the mother, not just exist to make it harder to have a legal abortion . 

[Silly Angel]

Right, thank you, Sarah 103. Very well said. I skipped Casey because I'm not a legal beagle and would have been unclear/incoherent, but it took steps to get to Roe v Wade and its undoing has taken and continues to take--ah, Indiana--http://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2016/11/16/total-abortion-ban-proposed-indiana/93954670/ steps as well.