S12.E12: Stuck in the Middle (With You)

[catrox14]

I was just thinking.

Didn't Rowena say in s11 that they needed another vessel for Lucifer to occupy to get him back in the Cage? Or did she say he couldn't be in a vessel to put him back in the cage? I guess either way it doesn't make sense for Nick to be the meatsuit unless Crowley rounded up Nick's meatsuit.

[Morrigan2575]

I'm rewatching to catch all the QT references. 

Dean: OK Ramblers, let's get Rambling (Joe from Reservoir Dogs).

I think Daniel's whistling walking back from fishing reference to Bill/ Snake Charmer from Kill Bill

Edited February 20, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was just thinking.

Didn't Rowena say in s11 that they needed another vessel for Lucifer to occupy to get him back in the Cage? Or did she say he couldn't be in a vessel to put him back in the cage? I guess either way it doesn't make sense for Nick to be the meatsuit unless Crowley rounded up Nick's meatsuit.

I don't think Lucifer has a physical meatsuit in Hell, it's just a projection. Just like last season when he broke out of the cage. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Wayward Son]

I was just thinking Nick is probably not even a back up Lucifer vessel (in the way John and Adam were back up Michael vessels) , but the vessel of a lower ranking angel he snatched up. 

The reason I was guessing this is that we are told the angels vessels run through bloodlines, and as far as I know, he has never been referred to as a relative to the Winchesters. Not even a distant one. 

Second, his vessel was a lot less durable than the true vessel of a seraph (Castiel's). Nick was visibly at boiling point after several moments of possession, while Castiel was not yet visibly affected. Although we were told it was damaging him too just slowly. 

So all in all it seems to me Nick was probably designed to hold a higher ranking standard angel and Lucifer took him as his own out of desperation. 

The chances of the writers remembering these facts... probably zero haha 

Edited February 20, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think Lucifer has a physical meatsuit in Hell, it's just a projection. Just like last season when he broke out of the cage. 

How does that explain Sam? Did Cas take Lucifer out of Sam?

Edited February 20, 2017 by catrox14
reversed the names. YES I KNOW LUCIFER POSSESSED SAM

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

How does that explain Sam? Did Cas take Sam out of Lucifer?

I'm not sure I understand the question, are you talking about S6? I'm not sure how it relates to how we see Lucifer in Hell, but I'd take a gander that Lucifer vacated Sam since he doesn't need a vessel in Hell. Probably easier to do the torture if you're not in the body, too.

My theory is, what one sees in Hell is a projection of their own minds. So, what Crowley sees would be different than what Sam or Dean sees. It's all dependent on how one's mind makes sense of it all.  Crowley may not even be seeing Nick as we are?

Edited February 20, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Let's list them out, i know you think Dean is Mr Pink (which amuses me because I can totally see Dean delivering that line about his code name) but, I actually think he's Mr. White.

Dean - Mr White 

Castiel - Mr orange (Gut wound)

Sam - Mr Pink 

Wally - Mr Brown?

Mary - Mr Blonde (only because she's the one that got them into that mess)

Crowley - Nice Guy Eddie 

Oh, I think that's an absolute fair reading on the character mapping.  I think Mr Orange is the only one 100% a given but your take works for me. Mary isn't as psycho as Mr Blonde but I understand the choice. 

[catrox14]

I don't get why Crowley would be seeing Nickifer unless Nick was sent to Hell because he allowed Lucifer to possess him. But we never had any confirmation of that. And that seems weird to me that saying yes to an angel and you die means you go to Hell.  I wonder how that does work,  

[Macbeth]

On 2/17/2017 at 1:31 PM, Darkblood8 said:

That would have been brilliant (particularly LOTUS). They way they portray Mary is practically abusive. 

They are completely clueless when it comes to writing women.  I rolled my eyes that when Mary saw the Impala in the first episode this season she went gaga over it.  No.  No.  Her reaction should have been - "My husband's dead, but the car survived?  Wtf?"

I love that original recipe Lucifer is back.  I don't care - make up some bs reason that the original meat suit survived - MP is back on point.  If you gonna do Lucifer, you have to have MP.  Give the long-term survivors of this show some hope.

[DittyDotDot]

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't get why Crowley would be seeing Nickifer unless Nick was sent to Hell because he allowed Lucifer to possess him. But we never had any confirmation of that. And that seems weird to me that saying yes to an angel and you die means you go to Hell.  I wonder how that does work,  

Even if Nick's soul ended up in Hell, his body would've stayed topside, so there's no vessel left for Lucifer to possess.

I don't think Lucifer is currently in a vessel at all. Whatever Crowley is seeing isn't necessarily physically real, it's just a projection. It's Hell; a completely different plane of existence. For instance, Dean could feel his body being torn apart and put back together everyday, but his physical body was never in Hell. That's just how Dean's mind perceived Hell. It was real to Dean, but it wasn't real...if you catch my meaning. 

We don't know what it is Crowley actually sees. I'm of the opinion everyone experiences Hell differently, so each person would see Lucifer in a manner their consciousness can process. Crowley could be seeing a rat for all we know, even though we, the audience, are seeing Nick.

[catrox14]

51 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

They are completely clueless when it comes to writing women.  I rolled my eyes that when Mary saw the Impala in the first episode this season she went gaga over it.  No.  No.  Her reaction should have been - "My husband's dead, but the car survived?  Wtf?"

I have no problem with how they wrote Ellen, Jo, Bela(even though she annoyed me). I think Jody and Donna are their best female characters who are not Mary Sues. I think Dabb has trouble dialing back making Sam and Mary into  Super!Sam and Super!Mary.

[Morrigan2575]

11 hours ago, Macbeth said:

They are completely clueless when it comes to writing women.  I rolled my eyes that when Mary saw the Impala in the first episode this season she went gaga over it.  No.  No.  Her reaction should have been - "My husband's dead, but the car survived?  Wtf?"

I disagree.  I think they're horrible when it comes to writing young woman or woman as LI. However,  i think they do a great job with writing older/mature women and motherly types (Jody, Ellen, Donna, Mrs. Tran, even Rowena to an extent). 

Edited February 20, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[rue721]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

My point was more that audience, aside from brand new viewers, would immediately recognize Pellegrino's voice so they would know it was Lucifer.  To me it seemed kind of strange to end on when it's not even a power play that much if Crowley has Lucifer on lockdown. 

I think the idea was that Lucifer seemed like he was sort of just biding his time, slowly getting himself under Crowley's skin...but the red eyes and "that's not my name" at the end was meant to show that he was about to lose patience with this "game." I think it was meant to be foreboding. IMO not a power play.

3 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I think Daniel's whistling walking back from fishing reference to Bill/ Snake Charmer from Kill Bill

Oh yeah, how could I forget the whistling! That was AWESOME. I loved Ramiel's version of theatrics lol. His whistling, his stopwatch...

I guess YEDs just make the best villains on this show, what can I say.

I also liked that Ramiel actually looked like a similar physical type to Azazel. Hey, were they both in meatsuits? Kind of weird how Ramiel exploded in a puff if he was in a meatsuit, right?

[Goldmoon]

Quote

 If you gonna do Lucifer, you have to have MP.  Give the long-term survivors of this show some hope.

Couldn't agree more.  I do like Catrox's theory that Michael may have taken on the appearance of MP's actor.  Don't know how they would write it but it's interesting.

And SueB's praise of all things Tarantino, whose movies I have never watched, reminded to chime in with this.  The western music was exceptionally unpleasant to my ears.  Without the QT in-knowledge, all I had as a reference were real westerns, and this episode didn't seem like it fit into that mold.

[catrox14]

I think my problems with this episode are that it's a style that works in a 2 hour film because it really gives time to let each vignette really build. It was trying to be homage to every Tarantino movie ever and it was just too much squished in to short of time. IMO. 

[Goldmoon]

Yes Catrox.  It felt sloppy.  When the men in Coupling did the slow walk, it worked because while it was silly the show was a comedy, they were heading for a funeral, and the women in the cast pointed out they were doing it.

[mertensia]

11 hours ago, Katy M said:

Did you miss the first two episods of the season?

No, but I certainly don't recall Lady Toni asking Sam about God. The Apocalypse. Dying ad nauseam. 

[rue721]

On 2/18/2017 at 4:08 PM, Mick Lady said:

Mick, an old military man says "Age and treachery will always win out over youth and skill" I agree.

LOL so I guess older, treacherous Mary is going to be the undoing of the younger, skilled Sam and Dean after all.

[DittyDotDot]

4 hours ago, rue721 said:

LOL so I guess older, treacherous Mary is going to be the undoing of the younger, skilled Sam and Dean after all.

Except Mary is actually younger than Sam and Dean right now...and her youth is showing, if you ask me. 

[rue721]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Except Mary is actually younger than Sam and Dean right now...and her youth is showing, if you ask me. 

My point is that she's being treacherous, and that quote makes it sound like treachery is going to win out over Sam and Dean's skill.

FWIW I actually don't agree with that quote from Mick. I think treachery is associated more with integrity (or lack thereof) and not age. And since when are the young known for how skillful they are.

(ETA:  as to whether treachery trumps skill in the first place...I dunno, maybe. Depends. How bad is the treachery and how good is the skill? I think luck trumps both/either anyway. *shrug*)

I doubt that Mary's treachery is actually going to defeat Sam and Dean. But I am curious to see what happens if she does something that's unforgivable. I assume that they'll have to find a way to forgive her regardless, but maybe not.

The only thing I really don't want to happen is for her to kill herself to redeem herself. Sick of those storylines.

Edited February 20, 2017 by rue721

[Katy M]

32 minutes ago, rue721 said:

The only thing I really don't want to happen is for her to kill herself to redeem herself. Sick of those storylines.

Me, too.  Especially since I feel that a lot of the self-sacrificial I'm going to kill myself to redeem myself aren't all that sacrificial.  For example, Gadreel.  I think he was less killing himself to help humanity and the angels, then to clear his name and avoid eternity in Heaven's jail.  And Benny was having a hard time fitting in on earth.  He had said it several times.  He wasn't happy.  yes, he did Dean a favor and he bought Sam some time, but Sam was more than willing to take him back and they probably could have made it.  He just didn't want to go.  Since Mary has also shown a disdain for life after death, will it really be that much of a sacrifice for her to sacrifice herself.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

33 minutes ago, rue721 said:

(ETA:  as to whether treachery trumps skill in the first place...I dunno, maybe. Depends. How bad is the treachery and how good is the skill? I think luck trumps both/either anyway. *shrug*)

I think of the old adage that "you have to know the rules well before you can break them" when it comes to the particular kind of treachery that would win over youth and skill.  Like a pirate versus a young, able bodied sailor.  Sure, the young sailor knows all the rules.  So does the pirate cause he used to be that.  But the pirate also knows how to get around the rules in ways the young, earnest, skillful sailor would not even consider.

Mary is being treacherous right now.  But she also doesn't know all the rules - or have the skills Sam and Dean have.  

[SueB]

I don't think 'treachery' is the right word for what Mary is doing. Betrayal, lying, yes.  But she has no malice towards Sam and Dean.  She clearly threatened to burn the BMoL down if they put her boys in danger again.  

BTW, I found it interesting, to Mary the worst thing is to "burn" someone.  A little PTSD if you ask me.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I doubt that Mary's treachery is actually going to defeat Sam and Dean. But I am curious to see what happens if she does something that's unforgivable. I assume that they'll have to find a way to forgive her regardless, but maybe not.

I don't think Mary's treachery will defeat Sam and Dean but I do think it's going to get Cas in the middle and possibly get him killed. I think Cas' "I love you" in such a direct manner to Dean and Sam and Mary is a harbinger of Cas' doom. And like I said in the "Regarding Dean" thread, I think Dean's Broomstick Cowboy montage is a harbinger of Dean's doom( whatever that may be) and I can't shake the feeling that their doomed paths are because of Mary.

[rue721]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

I don't think 'treachery' is the right word for what Mary is doing. Betrayal, lying, yes.  But she has no malice towards Sam and Dean.  She clearly threatened to burn the BMoL down if they put her boys in danger again. 

 

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Mary is being treacherous right now.  But she also doesn't know all the rules - or have the skills Sam and Dean have.  

I think Mary does know enough to know that what she's doing is wrong. She has literally seen the BMOL hurt her sons, and even in this episode she outright recognized that they could have gotten them killed.

She knows that the BMOL are hurting and endangering Sam and Dean, *says so* to the BMOL, and yet continues to work for the BMOL.

Mary may not have the expertise of Sam or Dean but she isn't a babe in the woods, either. I think she DOES know better but she's making the choices she is anyway. IMO that's why it's a betrayal and not just a mistake.

[DittyDotDot]

41 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Mary may not have the expertise of Sam or Dean but she isn't a babe in the woods, either. I think she DOES know better but she's making the choices she is anyway. IMO that's why it's a betrayal and not just a mistake.

I think she knows better, but is arrogant enough to think she's in control of the situation. It's very similar to Sam continuing to drink demon blood even though he himself knew it was a bad road he was walking. And, pretty similar to Dean taking on the Mark of Cain even though he knew Crowley was trying to manipulate him into it. In all three cases the person doing the obviously wrong thing thought they were in control of the situation--they wouldn't let it go too far--and they also thought they would end up doing more good than harm. It's a Winchester family trait, apparently.

Mary's just going to have to learn the hard way, just like Sam and Dean did. And, I'm sure she will be by the end of the season.

Edited February 20, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Casseiopeia]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think she knows better, but is arrogant enough to think she's in control of the situation. It's very similar to Sam continuing to drink demon blood even though he himself knew it was a bad road he was walking. And, pretty similar to Dean taking on the Mark of Cain even though he knew Crowley was trying to manipulate him into it. In all three cases the person doing the obviously wrong thing thought they were in control of the situation--they wouldn't let it go too far--and they also thought they would end up doing more good than harm. It's a Winchester family trait, apparently.

Mary's just going to have to learn the hard way, just like Sam and Dean did. And, I'm sure she will be by the end of the season.

Interesting perspective.  I hadn't looked at it that way.  Mary's threat to Mr. Ketch proves how out of her league she is.  She clearly is operating on outdated assumptions.

[Myrelle]

19 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Dean never really even had a connection to Michael, imo.

I disagree. His status as Michael's OTV was established in S5 with both brothers respective roles/angelic destinies spelled out clearly by Gabriel when he was trapped in the ring of holy oil in Changing Channels. At that time he had as much of a connection to Michael as Sam had to Lucifer. And his status as Michael's one true human vessel should remain a connection, IMO, as it was an angelically handed down prophetic connection that should still hold as much as Sam's angelically handed down prophetic connection does. He didn't have to actually be possessed, as Sam was, for the prophecy to simply exist. Being possessed would have fulfilled the prophecy(as it did for Sam), but the prophecy, itself, is still in place, and as such, should still hold for both brothers, IMO. That both archangels can take on other vessels wouldn't change the established prophecy that stated that both brothers are each the one true human vessel of those particular and respective archangels and that, btw, could still be fulfilled as long as both Lucifer and Michael live.

[Wayward Son]

What I love about this episode is that it was an ensemble. Episodes such as this or Abandon All Hope where a group are involved are some of the best on the show. It makes things that little bit more large scale and gives the audience a range of dynamics to potentially enjoy. 

I'm so glad that the writers have chosen not to give into the demands of the loud minority who hate on any character that isn't Sam and Dean. 

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

. At that time he had as much of a connection to Michael as Sam had to Lucifer. And his status as Michael's one true human vessel should remain a connection, IMO, as it was an angelically handed down prophetic connection that should still hold as much as Sam's angelically handed down prophetic connection does.

That was reiterated in Song Remains the Same. Michael said using another vessel doesn't change Dean's status as Michael's TRUE vessel. Seems to me that would be the case with Lucifer using vessels other than Sam. And thus far nothing has pointed to that no longer being true. 

What I really need to know is whether that grace that came from the LoM (Lance of Michael) is actually some of Michael's grace or what? Or did it just repower Cas' own grace?  Did it heal Cas back up to fully powered angel with  undamaged wings. What did it actually do to Cas?

Edited February 20, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

Me, too.  Especially since I feel that a lot of the self-sacrificial I'm going to kill myself to redeem myself aren't all that sacrificial.  For example, Gadreel.  I think he was less killing himself to help humanity and the angels, then to clear his name and avoid eternity in Heaven's jail.  And Benny was having a hard time fitting in on earth.  He had said it several times.  He wasn't happy.  yes, he did Dean a favor and he bought Sam some time, but Sam was more than willing to take him back and they probably could have made it.  He just didn't want to go.  Since Mary has also shown a disdain for life after death, will it really be that much of a sacrifice for her to sacrifice herself.

This was my exact reaction to that scene as well. It's not really much of a sacrifice if you don't want to be alive anyway. And worse, her 'sacrifice' would be the (next) worst possible thing to do to her sons, especially Dean, who already had one parent die for him. I understand that the character would have adjustment issues and need time, etc., but the way they have written her just leaves me feeling absolutely cold. With every scene they just make me feel that she and John Winchester were far more alike than different. Both selfish, self-centered people who put their own needs first in nearly every instance.

Edited February 20, 2017 by gonzosgirrl
grammar

[Wayward Son]

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That was reiterated in Song Remains the Same. Michael said using another vessel doesn't change Dean's status as Michael's TRUE vessel. Seems to me that would be the case with Lucifer using vessels other than Sam. And thus far nothing has pointed to that no longer being true. 

You're right. Dean and Sam remain the one true vessel for Michael and Dean, especially Dean.

Unless they retcon it further, canon has established that a vessel is capable of being possessed by any Angel that is equal to or weaker than the Angel it is designed for indefinitely. If a stronger Angel tries to possess that vessel then it will ultimately lead to the vessels destruction. The rate of that destruction is dependent on the difference in strength between the Angel that vessel belongs to and the one attempting to possess. For instance if an archangel tried to possess a vessel designed for a grunt Angel it would likely cause an instanteous explosion. While if an archangel tried to possess the vessel of a seraph (like Lucifer did with Cas) then that vessel could contain them for months maybe even years. The point though is that the vessel will ultimately be destroyed and the archangel would never be able to access their full power lest they destroy it earlier than necessary. 

Michael is the strongest Angel in the universe, which makes Dean the strongest vessel in the world. There is quite literally no Angel that Dean's body couldn't hold indefinitely if Dean allowed it. Sam is likewise the second strongest vessel in the world because he is the one true vessel for Lucifer, the second strongest Angel in the world. The only Angel he couldn't hold indefinitely is Michael. Since there are no other angels equal to or greater than Michael and Lucifer they can't be replaced with other vessels. Those we have seen such as John, Adam, Nick and Castiel are cheap substitutes at best. 

At least that's my understanding of things at any rate :)

Quote

What I really need to know is whether that grace that came from the LoM (Lance of Michael) is actually some of Michael's grace or what? Or did it just repower Cas' own grace?  Did it heal Cas back up to fully powered angel with  undamaged wings. What did it actually do to Cas?

I think I've said it before, but I'm not sure where people have got the idea that the Lance did something to Cas. Unless future episodes change things, we are told that the magic is in the runework i.e. break the sequence of runes and break the spell. In my eyes it's the same as burning a hex bag in order to save the life of someone under the influence of one. The magic has been stopped because it's source has been destroyed. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 hours ago, SueB said:

I don't think 'treachery' is the right word for what Mary is doing. Betrayal, lying, yes.  But she has no malice towards Sam and Dean.  She clearly threatened to burn the BMoL down if they put her boys in danger again.  

BTW, I found it interesting, to Mary the worst thing is to "burn" someone.  A little PTSD if you ask me.

Well, my thesaurus lists betrayal as a synonym for treachery. :) I guess it depends on your individual interpretation of the word.  If you think treachery involves malice but not betrayal per se does not, then I can see your point.  I don't necessarily agree with that though.

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

Interesting perspective.  I hadn't looked at it that way.  Mary's threat to Mr. Ketch proves how out of her league she is.  She clearly is operating on outdated assumptions.

Agreed.  Or, as @DittyDotDot said, she is arrogant about her abilities and way out of her depth.  I thought her threat was pretty laughable, tbh.

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

I disagree. His status as Michael's OTV was established in S5 

I posted my reasoning in the Unpopular opinions thread so I am not going to be redundant and repeat it here.  Replying further in that thread.

[MysteryGuest]

17 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't get why Crowley would be seeing Nickifer unless Nick was sent to Hell because he allowed Lucifer to possess him. But we never had any confirmation of that.

I'm not convinced there is any reason for this other than the fact that Mark Pellegrino is a fan favorite and instantly recognizable as Lucifer.  You don't want your fans confused about who Crowley is talking to when that's your big reveal.  Had he appeared with another visage, some people might have been left wondering.  

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, rue721 said:

Mary may not have the expertise of Sam or Dean but she isn't a babe in the woods, either. I think she DOES know better but she's making the choices she is anyway. IMO that's why it's a betrayal and not just a mistake.

I think it automatically qualifies as a betrayal if you feel you have to sneak around and lie.  Especially after someone dies in the process.  IOW, if Mary were just working with the BMOL, but not involving Sam and Dean, then that would be more of a mistake, because what she does on her own is her own business.  But, the second she pulled them in and lied about the true purpose and where the info came in, it crossed the line into betrayal.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 hours ago, rue721 said:

I think Mary does know enough to know that what she's doing is wrong. She has literally seen the BMOL hurt her sons, and even in this episode she outright recognized that they could have gotten them killed.

Sorry, when I said Mary didn't know all the rules I wasn't really clear on what rules, was I?  I meant that she doesn't know the rules by which HMSS are playing.  She might think she does (as @DittyDotDot pointed out), but they are on a very different playing field than she is.  She also doesn't know the rules by which demons, angels, and 'the cosmic universe' operates, imo.  This precisely because compared to Sam, Dean, and Cas she has such limited experience with those things.   I don't know if that clarifies what I meant or not.  :) 

I think she knows enough to know that lying to her sons is wrong.  She knew that having Wally 'ask' them for help and lie for her was wrong.  She's not a child after all, as you pointed out.  And fwiw, I think she also knows it's a betrayal of/to them.  She must think that, whatever good she's hoping will come out of it, will be worth them being mad at her for betraying them.   

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

think I've said it before, but I'm not sure where people have got the idea that the Lance did something to Cas. Unless future episodes change things, we are told that the magic is in the runework i.e. break the sequence of runes and break the spell. In my eyes it's the same as burning a hex bag in order to save the life of someone under the influence of one. The magic has been stopped because it's source has been destroyed. 

I have the idea because a blinding blue light like angel grace was emanating from both pieces of the Lance after Crowley broke it. The light was not emanating from Cas. It took over the room and Cas' eyes flashed the angel grace blue.  I would think that removing the spell would only revert Cas back to his previous state which was somewhat compromised after his fight with Lily and being weakened by healing Ishim not cause his eyes to flash blue as though he was being powered up again.

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I think it automatically qualifies as a betrayal if you feel you have to sneak around and lie.

I don't know how I missed it the first time, but I didn't catch until the second viewing that Mary was just using Wally to get to Sam and Dean.  I thought he legitimately asked them for help.  For me, that definitely ramps up the deviousness of her plans.  Not only did she get Wally killed in her scheme, but she was also using her sons.  Not telling them that she's working with the BMOL is bad enough, and most-likely won't end well, but what she did was really crossing a line into unforgivable territory.  

[Casseiopeia]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

...but the way they have written her just leaves me feeling absolutely cold

When I watch the Pilot again I'm going to have a hard time not rooting for the fire.  Talk about destroying a character.

[FlickChick]

51 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

When I watch the Pilot again I'm going to have a hard time not rooting for the fire.  Talk about destroying a character.

And that is really sad, isn't it? To have the adored mother of our heroes turn into what we have seen, including a betrayal of her sons, really has destroyed our vision of her as well. She's actually making John look good.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

When I watch the Pilot again I'm going to have a hard time not rooting for the fire.  Talk about destroying a character.

LOL!  I'm sorry.  I don't quite agree, but I had to laugh!

[bearcatfan]

Did anyone else get the impression that Sam wanted to hug Mary when they first met up? I'm not sure what it was that makes me think that, but I do.

[ILoveReading]

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

When I watch the Pilot again I'm going to have a hard time not rooting for the fire.  Talk about destroying a character.

LOL.  This made me laugh.  At least John gave up the colt, his life and a chance for revenge to save Dean.  I get wanting a better safer world with no monsters but what kind of world would it be if Sam, Dean and/or Cas had been killed. 

Although, at this point in time I honestly can't say it would bother her all that much.

57 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

Did anyone else get the impression that Sam wanted to hug Mary when they first met up? I'm not sure what it was that makes me think that, but I do.

It's hard to say.  They haven't really shown Sam all that effected by Mary leaving.   I'm getting the impression that Sam isn't keeping in touch with her at all.  I thought Dean's expression was interesting.  When Wally told Sam and Dean, Mary was proud, Dean kind of smiled, forced himself to stop and then shrugged it off.  It seems he's trying very hard to keep up that wall he built when Mary left. 

Things seem cold between them.  I hope we're going to get an emotional moment between them at some point because so far we haven't really had any scenes with Mary and Dean about Dean.

http://hunenka.tumblr.com/post/157493139069/spn-12x12-stuck-in-the-middle-with-you-just-look

Edited February 21, 2017 by ILoveReading
Edited to attach link of Dean's face

[SueB]

So I gave a proper third rewatch -- always a sign I really like an ep -- and got a few more tidbits:

1) I think Mary is fond of Cas, almost more than her real boys.  Again, I feel she's holding herself at a distance with them, but not as much with Cas.  And she's gotten caught by his charms as a person.  I don't remotely mean romantic. I mean Cas is just... Cas.  He's 12 kinds of adorable most days, and BadAss, and he shared with Mary his deepest thoughts about being useless at hunting.  Whether or not she likes it, I think Mary claiming Cas as one of her boys is not something she expected but something absolutely true. Cas may be the secret to getting Mary to come clean and start opening herself up to her boys.  In fact, when he asked about the weapon, she almost broke.  It was Dean saying "nevermind" that caused her to stop.  But I suspect lying to Cas bothers her more than lying to her own boys.  That's f*ed up, but that's what I'm sensing.

2) I think I could write a thesis on the look that Mary gave Dean when he said they don't leave behind family. She was legit shocked.  First, I'm certain she absolutely believed him.  She's not stupid. She's seen the extent these boys go to accomplish something. If Dean says he doesn't abandon family, Mary will take that as gospel.  Second, she didn't expect it.  I think she knows they are all very loyal to each other, but Cas was finished (or so she thought).  And the 'smart hunter' thing would have been to honor his request and live to fight another day.  But she apparently really doesn't know her own boys.  But that's not how they played it.  And the integrity and love that these boys demonstrate is right in her face.  It's going to be hard for her to ignore and may start to crack her emotional defenses.  Of course WE knew they would not leave Cas. That was NEVER going to happen, not at this point.  But... it did sort of happen back in S4....

....remember the last time Cas said he's hold him off?  It was Raphael.  He sent Dean to Sam and Cas became chunky soup (per Chuck).  Now the world-circumstances were clearly more dire, but how would that scene play out today?  Part of Dean's devotion to Cas is that he literally put himself on the line for Sam, Dean and humanity.  Dean declared Cas his friend in the S5 opener while sitting in a room splattered with Cas-soup.  And he did so with emotion because it seemed like Cas was dead.  I'm mentioning this in more detail because I picked up a third nugget...

3) Crowley is being changed by TFW. On the one hand ... duh.  On the other hand, look at the parallel with Dean and Cas at the end of S4.  Cas tries to explain why he's sorry about how things turned out. And Dean shuts Cas down.  He tells him, 'we're finished'.  And this is the moment where Cas rebelled.  It's a HUGE moment for Cas. Dean told them there is a right and a wrong and doing nothing was wrong.  And that sold Cas.  In THIS episode, Dean shuts Crowley down.  He tells him help or go away.  Crowley IMMEDIATELY helps.  He argues TFW's case to Ramiel.  He gets thrown through the barn and was definitely on Ramiel's "to do" list after he tried to intervene.  Then Crowley gets up, realizes Cas can be saved and does so without verbal fanfare.  Time and again, we've seen Dean turn a bad guy around.  I'm not saying Crowley is good. Nope nope nope-ity nope. BUT, he's cast his lot with TFW AGAINST the Princes.  Maybe they won't give a shit about Ramiel's death.  Maybe they will.  But TFW is alive and their 'brother' is dead.  I think Crowley needs to hope they don't come off the bench.  If they do, I expect he's done.  And he KNOWS all this.  But when Dean basically says 'put up or shut up', Crowley puts up.  He protects TFW.**

And I think the boys know it.  

Honestly, I'll be a little pissed if they blow this off again.  They've always been able to comfort themselves with Crowley having a self-interest.  But that's a hard sell this time.  So, we'll see if Dean (not Sam... Sam would probably chew glass rather than utter anything remotely positive about Crowley) says a grudging 'thank you' or 'you came through.'  

 

ETA:

4) Ketch and the BMoL really ARE impressed with the Winchesters.  That's twice now when they've seen TFW take on cosmic-class figures (Lucifer and now a Prince of Hell) and WIN.  Not just survive, but WIN.  Maybe he's doing a good 'stunned' face, but I think he really didn't expect that the house belonged to Ramiel.  And while they are happy to throw away hunters as canon fodder for their goals, they have to be completely stupid if they don't start to recognize that these 'flannel clad nightmares' are tough to kill.

 

** Yes, I've done it. I've identified what I think is an intentional parallel between Dean/Cas and Dean/Crowley.  Before this causes people to throw shit through their screen, let me offer up that it's a parallel but not a replacement.  Cas has gone well beyond the 'friend' status that he earned from that act of defiance in S4.  Crowley is never going to be in that weight-class when it comes to a relationship with the eldest Winchester. He's a demon, and a baddy.  But he may earn legit respect out of Dean. Dean may do him a favor as repayment, at a minimum. And maybe not speak to him like he's dogshit on the bottom of their shoe everytime Crowley attempts a modicum of bonding. 

Edited February 21, 2017 by SueB
4th observation

[rue721]

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Mary's threat to Mr. Ketch proves how out of her league she is.  She clearly is operating on outdated assumptions.

 

43 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I thought her threat was pretty laughable, tbh.

I agree that her threat rang completely hollow. The thing is that Mary herself must know that she's bluffing. Even while she was doing her whole tough girl "that's not a threat, that's a promise" routine, she was handing the Colt right over. She was cooperating, and her supposed threat about "if this happens again..." made it clear that she would be working with them again, and cooperating with them again.

I do think that Mary is out of her league, but I find it hard to believe that she herself doesn't realize that. She let the BMOL throw herself and her sons to the wolves, and she obediently went right back to them -- Colt in hand -- immediately afterward. That doesn't seem to me like someone who thinks she's in control.

My best guess is that that's someone who is trying to appease the bully because she thinks that's the smartest/safest play. But honestly, I have no idea what Mary is up to. I think she knows she's playing with fire but I don't know what she thinks she's going to do or what's going to happen when she inevitably gets burned.

This is also the woman who was willing to make the deal with Azazel in the first place, disregarding the collateral damage that it could cause and I guess assuming that she'd just deal with the blowback herself when it came. I think she's probably looking at her "deal" with the BMOL the same way, and making the same mistakes.

19 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Sorry, when I said Mary didn't know all the rules I wasn't really clear on what rules, was I?  I meant that she doesn't know the rules by which HMSS are playing.  She might think she does (as @DittyDotDot pointed out), but they are on a very different playing field than she is.  She also doesn't know the rules by which demons, angels, and 'the cosmic universe' operates, imo.  This precisely because compared to Sam, Dean, and Cas she has such limited experience with those things.   I don't know if that clarifies what I meant or not.  :) 

I agree that she doesn't know those rules...but does she really need to, for this particular issue? Where she's screwing up isn't actually in terms of how she's dealing with celestial beings and demons and stuff, it's in how she's dealing with human beings -- the BMOL. And arguably, she's screwing up in dealing with some other humans, too -- Sam and Dean. I don't think her lack of experience with angels/demons/God or even hunting is the problem, I think that, despite knowing better, she's making stupid decisions out of regular old fear.

IMO her problem is that she won't trust anybody. She's throwing in her lot with what she sees as the strongest game in town, probably because she's figuring that all things being equal, it's better to be on the winning team than not (and she sees the BMOL as formidable enough to be the likely winning team). What she should be doing is trusting Sam and Dean, and working as part of a team with THEM. But that would keep her on the wrong side of the BMOL, and she's apparently terrified of being on their bad side, so...here she is, sneaking behind her sons' backs despite her own best interests, and allying with their enemy.

That's why her story in this episode stood out to me as a contrast with Crowley's. Crowley did nearly the exact thing to the Prince by allying with Sam and Dean as Mary did to Sam and Dean by allying with the BMOL.

Crowley threw in his lot with Sam and Dean, against the prince who made him king, because he believes in them enough that his alliance with them is apparently nonnegotiable. Then Lucifer tried to shake his trust in them at the end (and maybe he did, but Crowley and the Winchesters are also clearly not done with each other). Mary threw in her lot with the BMOL, against her own sons, and apparently even getting Wally killed and Cas nearly so was not enough to make her break that alliance. She made it clear when she was handing over the Colt that her trust in them was shaken, but it's also clear that there's going to be a next time.

Mary is in nearly the same position with the BMOL as Crowley is with Sam and Dean -- only, unfortunately for Mary, whereas Sam and Dean are fundamentally good people, and have a really great track record at doing good, too, the BMOL aren't and don't especially, so she's about to get screwed.

But anyway, I don't really think that Mary thinks she's hot shit where hunting is concerned. In the actual planning and fight against Ramiel, she fell back and let the boys (esp Dean) take over -- IMO because she and everyone knew that they were more experienced and capable in dealing with demons than she was. If anything, I think she probably overestimated how easy it would be for Sam and Dean to take Ramiel on, seeing as she was so cavalier about leading them into that trap, and was even going so far as to continually reassure poor doomed Wally that everything would be OK. I think she actually thought it wouldn't be that bad, that Sam, Dean and maybe Cas could handle it, and was shocked when suddenly they were fighting a YED and came so close to getting killed on the spot.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

agree that her threat rang completely hollow. The thing is that Mary herself must know that she's bluffing. Even while she was doing her whole tough girl "that's not a threat, that's a promise" routine, she was handing the Colt right over. She was cooperating, and her supposed threat about "if this happens again..." made it clear that she would be working with them again, and cooperating with them again

Upon rewatch I don't think she handed it over. Ketch said "Can I look at it" as though Mary was going to be retaining possession of it.

[rue721]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Upon rewatch I don't think she handed it over. Ketch said "Can I look at it" as though Mary was going to be retaining possession of it.

I can't rewatch the episode yet (hopefully Thurs or later this weekend?), so can't say for sure. But why would she bring it to the table and let him handle it if she was going to keep it (knowing that he wanted it)? OTOH maybe he wants her to keep it for some reason and it's part of some larger mission he wants her to carry out, so he just wanted to see proof of receipt or whatever. Who knows.

[Wynne88]

Quote

I'm getting the impression that Sam isn't keeping in touch with her at all. 

I'm not sure whose choice that is.  In Regarding Dean, when Dean was eating waffles and showed Sam that his phone was broken, Sam pulled his out and said he'd let their Mom and Cas know they would need to contact him.  There was something about the way he said 'contact me' that made me think he was glad it happened.  I don't see much interest on her part though.

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I can't rewatch the episode yet (hopefully Thurs or later this weekend?), so can't say for sure. But why would she bring it to the table and let him handle it if she was going to keep it (knowing that he wanted it)? OTOH maybe he wants her to keep it for some reason and it's part of some larger mission he wants her to carry out, so he just wanted to see proof of receipt or whatever. Who knows.

If she was going to give it to him anyway why would he ask if he could see it? It seemed a bit like someone wanting to see or touch a work of art. 

[ILoveReading]

17 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

I'm not sure whose choice that is.

It would have to be Sam's choice because there is nothing to prevent Sam from texting Mary or calling her.  Dean's phone doesn't have to be broken for Sam to reach out.   Im not sure why the show is trying to make it look like Sam isn't making an effort.

Edited February 21, 2017 by ILoveReading