S03.E10: To Show My Duty in Your Coronation

[formerlyfreedom]

Liam finds himself in unexpected places; Helena's heart breaks over a recent loss; Jasper makes a final play for Eleanor's heart; historic changes assure that nothing will ever be the same.

[EarlGreyTea]

Robert and Willow live! (Willow is short for Wilhemina, right?)

Liam needs to FUCK off, my God. Maybe if he was less of a whiny ass baby I might feel sorrier for him. I'm sure I would feel hurt too if a family member chose to stay away, but Robert was right on the money when he said Liam wished he was still dead. Do the writers think we have amnesia? We saw how reluctant Liam was to step in to Robert's shoes and how often he came up short. We're supposed to believe Liam wouldn't understand wanting to run away from his duties? They've really taken two of Liam's best traits - earnestness and empathy - and run them into the ground. Now he's putting the hat on Robert for Simon's death? Jesus. Loved Helena's smackdown of him. It's like they took my thoughts and put them straight into her mouth. Maybe there's hope for this show yet. He's bawwwwwing about Robert's "betrayal" but won't tell anyone what it is. 

So THAT'S the big secret? Does Liam really think the public will be scandalized by the news that Robert didn't want to be king? This is the same royal family that includes Cyrus. The general public probably sees him as far less of a freak show.

Sorry show, not buying your retcon of Simon wanting to disband the monarchy before Robert died. And interfering with Jasper and Eleanor is going to earn the hate of most of the audience. Get ready, folks, Robert's downfall is imminent.

Frankly, I find Robert's struggle to keep his shit together while out-royaling everyone else intriguing and hot. Either the actor or the character or both seem to understand and know how to keep both a public and a private mask. We're probably supposed to be mad at him for dumping Kathryn, but I highly enjoyed his dumping her. She's boring and acted abominably toward a man she said she loved. I get that she was conflicted, but she  and Liam let it go on for weeks. 

I loved Robert's reveal of knowing the entire time about Kathryn and Liam, though his going on about her being "common" was probably just bitterness than his actual beliefs. You don't get inspired to leave an island for anything less than true love.

It's kind of hilarious seeing Robert's scandalized reaction to the family members dating "the help." Frankly he's damn right to be concerned about Jasper, and he is still getting through his dad's death, so I get it.

Max Brown favorited two of my tweets, so that pretty much cements Robert as my favorite character, lol. I will miss you all. See you next fall, unless the show returns sooner.

Edited February 20, 2017 by EarlGreyTea

[catrice2]

Sorry to be the one to tell you I told you so, but I predicted that he could have gotten off the island sooner (and it may yet still be part of a bigger plan) and I always suspected that he knew about Liam and Kathryn.  I thought, however, he had observed the shirt.    I also knew they were about to start the character assassination in earnest.   I also said Sebastian had something to do with Robert.   I laughed at the way they turned Robert into the master manipulator, skulking at doors,  using secret passages, etc.   They didn't even waste time...they just made him evil incarnate with his hands in every pot in one episode!  I left the room for a minute....did he also kill his mother's potential love interest?? Because.....why, only to solidify that he is a bad boy! 

 Now daddy favored Liam?   I also called Liam and Simon working together, and Robert going after Willow and Robert having something to do with the whole Jasper thing.  See..this show is not challenging to me.  If I can sit and write it basically in my head after watching a few episodes, then that is really sad. 

I am glad that the true fans are getting another season, but I am out. I had a hard time letting go of Suits, but I had more time (and more eye candy with the fashions on Gina Torres) invested.  I have not invested that much time in this show so it will be easier to let it go.   I wonder what Max Brown has to do to get a show where he is a popular lead.  He clearly has the ability to carry a show or at least be a strong part of it.  Too bad the E! audience is such that the writers are catering to them. 

Liam as the strong moral king fighting the good fight is not a story that I want to follow.  Here's the thing....regardless of what Robert did or didn't do to get on that island Liam and Kathryn getting together in six months is just a ugly thing to do to a sibling and I really don't appreciate how they made him look like the bad guy in that situation.  She got exactly what she deserved. 

[Ashand11]

Cant agree with you at all. Liam is my favourite character and he's been treated like shit since Robert got back.  Helena forgot he existed and Len pretty much did too. Helena never even tried to talk with him and make sure he knew he was still important and yes maybe Liam is a grown man but c'mon everyone still likes to feel appreciated and important to their family members.  He was just relegated back to being the spare and Robert lost no time in rubbing that in.  Robert is a jackass and I hope he's gone soon.  He really didn't bring much interesting to the show.  I just hope that Liam stays away from kathryn.  She's so boring.

33 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

Liam as the strong moral king fighting the good fight is not a story that I want to follow.  Here's the thing....regardless of what Robert did or didn't do to get on that island Liam and Kathryn getting together in six months is just a ugly thing to do to a sibling and I really don't appreciate how they made him look like the bad guy in that situation.  She got exactly what she deserved. 

Agree with you. I can't feel bad for her.  If she had any moral compass at all she would have told both of them to take a hike.

[EarlGreyTea]

18 minutes ago, Ashand11 said:

Cant agree with you at all. Liam is my favourite character and he's been treated like shit since Robert got back.  Helena forgot he existed and Len pretty much did too. Helena never even tried to talk with him and make sure he knew he was still important and yes maybe Liam is a grown man but c'mon everyone still likes to feel appreciated and important to their family members.  He was just relegated back to being the spare and Robert lost no time in rubbing that in.  Robert is a jackass and I hope he's gone soon.  He really didn't bring much interesting to the show.  I just hope that Liam stays away from kathryn.  She's so boring.

I'm glad to have your perspective on this, honestly. I really liked Liam, right up until Robert returned. He did and does have this appealing earnestness. I'm sad that the writers don't seem to have a solid love interest for him or really, an idea of who they want him to be. I liked him with Ophelia and I love his bond with Eleanor and Jasper. He can probably be salvaged, but I'm disappointed that it will most definitely be at Robert's expense.

I guess I just think Liam has come off as insanely jealous, babyish, and entitled. Frankly, for all he knew at the time, Robert was the one who was stuck on an island for months away from his family. It's not his fault at all that so much drama ensued while he was gone and it was pretty cruel of Liam to put Simon's death on him. He didn't seem to care that Robert had emotional trauma from the experience (although none of them did, really). It was also cruel of him to continue to pursue Kathryn, feel entitled to her, and pressure her (again, for all he knew Robert had no idea). And he DOES seem to still want Robert dead, and how does any of that make him any better than Robert?

I guess I'm also unsure why Liam even felt bad going back to being the spare. For the past few seasons all we've heard about is how much pressure he felt, how he could never fit into Robert's shoes, etc. Now he got his wish and he's still unhappy.

Having said all this, I know Liam has a lot more fans, and the rivalry will spawn a lot of good storylines for next season, so I say bring it on.

Edited February 20, 2017 by EarlGreyTea

[catrice2]

What is sad is that the writers did not have enough faith in their abilities to write two brothers at odds (or gosh, how about the brothers being solid and teaming up against Cyrus??!) and felt they had to destroy one to elevate the other...regardless of which side you are on?  There could have been a good power struggle (with some dirty dealings) without all the extra. 

I think there is a big plot there...it is not simple enough for Robert to have been traumatized on the island, they are going to turn that into something much bigger. 

Sorry, I have just hated that they canceled MI5...and the last season Max Brown was on there with so much promise!   I want to say he also was on the British Mistresses  I have hoped since then he would find a good show where he could stay.  This show is just destined to get rid of him, and make his character have no redeeming qualities.   At least he has a job!! 

I also just can't get into the acting of Eleanor or Liam, so for me it is about more than just the Robert thing.   I also find nothing compelling about the Jasper/Eleanor romance, but I was not watching when they got together.  Nothing, however, that anyone has posted has made me think that they would be such a great couple.   I also want Sebastian far, far, away from Eleanor. 

Maybe Sunday tv will still suck next year and I can reconsider.  I am usually watching Masterpiece or something at this time...oh I know I was watching Murder in the First and other things on TNT on Sunday....then Elementary, which comes on opposite this got so bad this season. 

[EarlGreyTea]

5 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

I also just can't get into the acting of Eleanor or Liam, so for me it is about more than just the Robert thing.   I also find nothing compelling about the Jasper/Eleanor romance, but I was not watching when they got together.  Nothing, however, that anyone has posted has made me think that they would be such a great couple.   I also want Sebastian far, far, away from Eleanor.

I've watched since the beginning and they way they got together was pretty gross. I handwave it because it's fiction, but pretty much all they have going for them is their great chemistry. And the fact that Tom Austen (Jasper) does a really great longing face. It reminds me of the 2005 version of Pride and Prejudice - the actor playing Darcy in that movie looked like he wanted to cry with suppressed sexual frustration and longing, and that's what Jasper does really well in this show (IMO). I like my men devoted in my fictional romances.

Edited February 20, 2017 by EarlGreyTea

[phoenics]

On 2/19/2017 at 10:14 PM, Ashand11 said:

Cant agree with you at all. Liam is my favourite character and he's been treated like shit since Robert got back.  Helena forgot he existed and Len pretty much did too. Helena never even tried to talk with him and make sure he knew he was still important and yes maybe Liam is a grown man but c'mon everyone still likes to feel appreciated and important to their family members.  He was just relegated back to being the spare and Robert lost no time in rubbing that in.  Robert is a jackass and I hope he's gone soon.  He really didn't bring much interesting to the show.  I just hope that Liam stays away from kathryn.  She's so boring.

Agree with you. I can't feel bad for her.  If she had any moral compass at all she would have told both of them to take a hike.

Your comment simply isn't true.  There was an episode shortly after Robert got back where Helena specifically went to check on Liam and make sure he was okay after the press conference.  And - oddly enough - NO ONE ever checked to see if Robert was mentally okay.  No one ever asked him how he was really doing - he was just expected to jump back into the fray and act like he hadn't lost a lot of his life on a desert island.  I could buy Liam caring oh so much about why Robert didn't come back sooner if he'd shown an OUNCE of caring about Robert since he got back.  He didn't.  He was too busy wishing him dead.

And honestly, if I was Robert, and I came back from the dead and went to the love of my life's place and saw her kissing my brother, rubbing "spare" in said brother's face would be the least bad thing I'd do to him.

My thoughts about Robert after this episode?  Whew - ice cold.  And HOT! D@mn that was a master stroke of manipulation he pulled off.  And he definitely served his vengeance cold.  Wow - Max Brown just did an amazing job with that material.

I'm unhappy with how they retconned Simon to bashing Robert - if Robert was "heartless" as Simon implied - well - WHO THE HELL raised him Simon?  You and Helena.  Ya'll own that.  Nevermind that I still thought that was BS.  Clearly this show is obsessed with making Liam king.  Whatever.

Now on to psycho analyzing Robert.  I think (if I give Simon's words credence) that Robert is a master politician and statesman, but lacks the empathy and heart that Liam leads with.  Liam lacks discipline that Robert has in spades.  Together they make 1 King, lol.  But besides that, Simon was pretty harsh with all of his kids leading up to his death and before Robert's death.  He pretty much thought none of them should rule - even though in the pilot it's clear he didn't think that about Robert - I think he said Robert was the best of them and the monarchy took him.  So - still a retcon.  But I digress.

Since Simon died, Liam, Eleanor and Helena all grew and matured - with many fits and starts.  But Robert was stuck on the island and didn't grow the same way.  He did realize love was what he wanted and opened his heart more fully to Kate.  So she's the reason he gets off that island - and then he goes to see her first and sees her kissing his brother.  Ouch.  Robert got his heart stomped - and the feeling of betrayal must have been immense.

So now, Robert thinks he has nothing, since Simon thinks he's unfit to be King and Liam has his girl.  I'd be mad too if I were him.  So then I think he focused on getting his crown - and then he took Liam with him to see Kate - hoping they'd confess - they didn't.  So I think his rage simmered.  But he has discipline where Liam doesn't, so he hid it.  Liam on the other hand, acted out like a child - and still lacks discipline.  Robert probably grew even more angry - because his brother is acting like he wants him dead AND he knows Kate and the crown are why.  I can't even imagine how that must feel.  Liam never even gave Robert the chance to reveal that he knew - because Liam was too busy hating on him.

I can't find much fault with Robert's actions.  Kate and Liam should have told him.  To Robert, Kate probably looked like she was a social climbing bimbo and Liam probably looked like he just wanted what his brother had.  So I get why he never said a word and just bided his time.

At the same time - I think Robert was angry at his family for having their liasons - Jaspenor and Helena with Spencer - because Robert played by the rules with Kate and it burned him because the secrecy of their relationship allowed Liam to take up with her (no way he could have done that if the world knew about Kate/Robert), and none of his family had to play by the rules Robert had to play by.

I know the show wants me to hate Robert - but sorry - I still think he's the victim here.  Yeah, he definitely acted out toward the end, but Liam and Kate deserved his rage.  He gave them all season to confess and they never did.  Sure, he could have tried to let Kate explain, but eh.  Some folks don't forgive.

Long live the King.

[Rachel RSL]

I'm officially Team Robert now! I don't watch this show for the lame romances, I watch it for the plotting and backstabbing and all that fun over-the-top cattiness that I haven't been able to find since Gossip Girl went off the air. 

1 hour ago, catrice2 said:

Here's the thing....regardless of what Robert did or didn't do to get on that island Liam and Kathryn getting together in six months is just a ugly thing to do to a sibling and I really don't appreciate how they made him look like the bad guy in that situation.  She got exactly what she deserved. 

YES to all of this! I've always disliked Kathryn for bed-hopping between the 2 brothers. Even if she thought Robert was dead, you don't start banging your dead boyfriend's brother. His last scene with her was ice cold but I loved every second of it!

1 hour ago, EarlGreyTea said:

And interfering with Jasper and Eleanor is going to earn the hate of most of the audience.

Not mine, that's for sure. This show got so much better after they got rid of Ophelia and I really wish Jasper was next. I don't know if it's the writers or the actor to blame but I have never found anything likeable or charismatic about Jasper at all. And after all the times he's hurt her, I have no idea why Eleanor would want anything to do with him.

[Ashand11]

On 2/19/2017 at 10:26 PM, EarlGreyTea said:

I'm glad to have your perspective on this, honestly. I really liked Liam, right up until Robert returned. He did and does have this appealing earnestness. I'm sad that the writers don't seem to have a solid love interest for him or really, an idea of who they want him to be. I liked him with Ophelia and I love his bond with Eleanor and Jasper. He can probably be salvaged, but I'm disappointed that it will most definitely be at Robert's expense.

I guess I just think Liam has come off as insanely jealous, babyish, and entitled. Frankly, for all he knew at the time, Robert was the one who was stuck on an island for months away from his family. It's not his fault at all that so much drama ensued while he was gone and it was pretty cruel of Liam to put Simon's death on him. He didn't seem to care that Robert had emotional trauma from the experience (although none of them did, really). It was also cruel of him to continue to pursue Kathryn, feel entitled to her, and pressure her (again, for all he knew Robert had no idea). And he DOES seem to still want Robert dead, and how does any of that make him any better than Robert?

I guess I'm also unsure why Liam even felt bad going back to being the spare. For the past few seasons all we've heard about is how much pressure he felt, how he could never fit into Robert's shoes, etc. Now he got his wish and he's still unhappy.

Having said all this, I know Liam has a lot more fans, and the rivalry will spawn a lot of good storylines for next season, so I say bring it on.

I can definitely agree with some of this. I think the reason he feels bad going back to the spare is because for a short time he had a glimpse of what life could be and he worked so hard while Robert was gone to change enough as a person to be worthy of it. And I can imagine it was tough for his mom to suggest taking away the charity he was doing and asking him to pretty much just disappear. I am guessing we will find out that Robert was part of Simons death.

Clearly Robert is a very vindictive person but yes from what Liam did know at the time he should have been more understanding.  Robert did try to talk with him and Liam didn't seem to take it to heart.  I know a lot of people were hoping he would get with Willow but Kathryn and him was just so random and ridiculous to me.

On 2/19/2017 at 11:19 PM, phoenics said:

My thoughts about Robert after this episode?  Whew - ice cold.  And HOT! D@mn that was a master stroke of manipulation he pulled off.  And he definitely served his vengeance cold.  Wow - Max Brown just did an amazing job with that material.

I'm unhappy with how they retconned Simon to bashing Robert - if Robert was "heartless" as Simon implied - well - WHO THE HELL raised him Simon?  You and Helena.  Ya'll own that.  Nevermind that I still thought that was BS.  Clearly this show is obsessed with making Liam king.  Whatever.

Now on to psycho analyzing Robert.  I think (if I give Simon's words credence) that Robert is a master politician and statesman, but lacks the empathy and heart that Liam leads with.  Liam lacks discipline that Robert has in spades.  Together they make 1 King, lol.  But besides that, Simon was pretty harsh with all of his kids leading up to his death and before Robert's death.  He pretty much thought none of them should rule - even though in the pilot it's clear he didn't think that about Robert - I think he said Robert was the best of them and the monarchy took him.  So - still a retcon.  But I digress.

Since Simon died, Liam, Eleanor and Helena all grew and matured - with many fits and starts.  But Robert was stuck on the island and didn't grow the same way.  He did realize love was what he wanted and opened his heart more fully to Kate.  So she's the reason he gets off that island - and then he goes to see her first and sees her kissing his brother.  Ouch.  Robert got his heart stomped - and the feeling of betrayal must have been immense.

So now, Robert thinks he has nothing, since Simon thinks he's unfit to be King and Liam has his girl.  I'd be mad too if I were him.  So then I think he focused on getting his crown - and then he took Liam with him to see Kate - hoping they'd confess - they didn't.  So I think his rage simmered.  But he has discipline where Liam doesn't, so he hid it.  Liam on the other hand, acted out like a child - and still lacks discipline.  Robert probably grew even more angry - because his brother is acting like he wants him dead AND he knows Kate and the crown are why.  I can't even imagine how that must feel.  Liam never even gave Robert the chance to reveal that he knew - because Liam was too busy hating on him.

I can't find much fault with Robert's actions.  Kate and Liam should have told him.  To Robert, Kate probably looked like she was a social climbing bimbo and Liam probably looked like he just wanted what his brother had.  So I get why he never said a word and just bided his time.

At the same time - I think Robert was angry at his family for having their liasons - Jaspenor and Helena with Spencer - because Robert played by the rules with Kate and it burned him because the secrecy of their relationship allowed Liam to take up with her (no way he could have done that if the world knew about Kate/Robert), and none of his family had to play by the rules Robert had to play by.

I know the show wants me to hate Robert - but sorry - I still think he's the victim here.  Yeah, he definitely acted out toward the end, but Liam and Kate deserved his rage.  He gave them all season to confess and they never did.  Sure, he could have tried to let Kate explain, but eh.  Some folks don't forgive.

Long live the King.

Cant disagree with much here. Liam does lack discipline but in regards to Simons comments about Robert after he 'died', people always say much nicer and untrue things about a person once they are gone. I still don't like him but thats because we were with Liam during the whole journey and watched him grow so it wasn't hard to see Robert as the brother coming in and taking everything from him but you are right all of it was Roberts first.  I don't really know if Robert was waiting for them to confess so much as wanting to hurt them and make them uncomfortable by forcing them to be around each other and talk to each other.  The whole thing is stupid because when he got picked up off the island his family would have been notified, he wouldn't have just been wandering around the city with no one knowing he was alive at that point.

[GaT]

What the hell was Eleanor wearing? It looked like she was running away to join the circus.

Robert’s big secret was that he didn’t want to leave the island? Wow, what a big secret that is. /s

So Robert's just been playing everyone all this time & it turns out he's an asshole. I bet he had something to do with Jack's plane crash since he apparently has decided that he will pick who the members of his family are allowed to date. 

Not sure if I'll be back for the next season, if they don't bring the fun back, I don't have any reason to keep watching.

[omgsowicked]

I don't like that they've made Liam such an unlikable ass, and now Robert's this cold mastermind, but I like your post, phoenics. That helps me understand why Robert is the way he is. I was impressed by the reveal that Robert saw them kissing (even though it's ridiculous that he would be able to walk to the palace sans guards). I'm happy that they're going there with Robert/Willow, as I wasn't sure if the writers saw the chemistry between them like we did. But I really, really hope he actually likes her and this isn't about getting back at Liam (since Robert's so observant, he must know there were feelings on her end, at least). Interesting that he doesn't want his family with "the help" but now he's going to do so.

Cyrus was pointing the gun at Liam at the end, what the heck was that about? I don't believe they'll kill Liam off, although they were hinting at it with his comment to Helena (about how Robert would be her only son). As shitty a person as Cyrus is, I'm glad he didn't get to kill himself because I like the actor. (What was up with his body double killing himself, though?! That was so messed up.) I was underwhelmed by Robert's big secret, and glad that Helena and Eleanor treated Liam like he lost his damn mind. Again, glad that the writers were seeing what we were seeing, haha. But I don't understand what he was trying to say. Like, OK, Robert didn't allow himself to be rescued until much later... so what? If he had, Simon would still be alive? How does he think Robert could have prevented that? Or is Liam suggesting that Robert had a hand in his murder, especially considering his conversation with Simon about disbanding the monarchy (though Liam doesn't know about that)? I mean, Liam's right that Robert's more manipulative that everyone thinks (lurking around every corner, eager to interfere) but Liam really does seem like a conspiracy theorist, and I think they mean for us to be on his side.

So they introduced Helena's American lover, had them get serious very quickly and off screen, and now he's died. What was the point? For her to find out that Robert was behind it or something? And the chamberlain was fired, which was a relationship we got to see on screen, at least. I don't know what to think about any of that.

I skipped past the Jasper/little girl scene and most of the Jasper/Eleanor flashbacks because I don't care. I'm sure they'll be together again one day but I'm really surprised that Eleanor told him she couldn't get back with him. They put so much importance on her finding her bliss and doing it for herself, I almost worried she might be killed off. I'm also surprised Rosie told Jasper to go talk to Eleanor, considering their interactions have consisted of threatening to shoot each other. I'm still kind of into the idea of Eleanor/Rosie, even though another relationship with a bodyguard isn't a good idea.

I like Agnes Obel so I was happy to hear a song of hers in this episode. Eleanor's outfits are usually trashy but that black corset thing was atrocious. I hope as she grows personally, she changes her style a bit.

I'll tune in next season but I'm not very excited about it. I'm interested in Robert/Willow but that's about it. This used to be a fun, campy little guilty pleasure and now it's so serious, with a bunch of miserable people. But I'm enjoying the actor playing Robert, even if I don't like how cold and controlling the character is. And Cyrus is abhorrent but the actor is excellent as well.

[MsTree]

4 hours ago, Ashand11 said:

Cant agree with you at all. Liam is my favourite character and he's been treated like shit since Robert got back.  Helena forgot he existed and Len pretty much did too. Helena never even tried to talk with him and make sure he knew he was still important and yes maybe Liam is a grown man but c'mon everyone still likes to feel appreciated and important to their family members.  He was just relegated back to being the spare and Robert lost no time in rubbing that in.  Robert is a jackass and I hope he's gone soon.  He really didn't bring much interesting to the show.

Agree with everything you said re: Liam. Robert treats Liam like shit. If he's doing it because of Kathryn, then man up, Robert, and admit that you're hurt. Stop the game playing and one-upmanship.

3 hours ago, phoenics said:

I can't find much fault with Robert's actions.

IMO, Robert is the one acting like a baby fool...constantly taunting Liam. And why on earth would he interfere in Len & Jasper's relationship? What's he got against both of them? And I don't believe for one second he's trying to "protect" his sister either. He's just plain jealous because his relationship with Kathryn didn't work out the way he expected it to. That's no reason (whiny ass baby) to sabotage anyone else's relationship. 

[xtwheeler]

I disagree that Kate did anything getting involved with Liam after Robert died. You cannot "betray" a dead person. Two grieving people taking solace in a relationship after losing a mutually beloved person is so extraordinarily common as to be a cliché. You can argue they should have confessed upon his return, but they did nothing to betray him. He was dead. 

His anger at them for not confessing their involvement is one thing, but his treatment of her at the end of the episode was inexcusable. He took advantage of her sexually specifically so he could humiliate her, call her a whore, call her common, and inflict the maximum emotional damage possible. That is reprehensible. 

I haven't liked the character since he returned. I've found him smug, arrogant, and interested in the trappings of royal life but none of the responsibilities or duties. He seems quite impressed with himself, and certainly seems to believe he was indeed chosen by god to rule over the peasants. 

Did I mention I don't like him? LOL

I'm an unashamed Jasper/Len 'shipper. For me, he really sells the longing and love for her. Origin was icky, though. 

Even the little girl charmed me tonight. 

Oh, and I liked the Lord Chamberlain just walking in and calling Queen Mum "Helena." I liked that his instinct was to connect to her on a human level. I also liked that it made Robbie squirm. 

[phoenics]

On 2/20/2017 at 3:24 AM, xtwheeler said:

I disagree that Kate did anything getting involved with Liam after Robert died. You cannot "betray" a dead person. Two grieving people taking solace in a relationship after losing a mutually beloved person is so extraordinarily common as to be a cliché. You can argue they should have confessed upon his return, but they did nothing to betray him. He was dead. Did I mention I don't like him? LOL

Kate may not have done anything - but Robert doesn't know that.  To him, it looks like they were cavorting around behind his back.  If he was skulking around - he probably knew that Liam was visiting Kate so much even AFTER HE RETURNED - so to him it did look like Kate and Liam were still snogging each other.  And yes you can betray a dead person - it's not respectful to get together 6 months after someone dies - especially if you are his brother!  Come on.  I can appreciate the situation Liam/Kate were in but they should have told him the truth as soon as he got back.  Even IF Robert wasn't as angry at first, I don't think Liam's behavior helped and Kate was acting all weird with him when he got back too so it MUST have been obvious to him that her feelings were conflicted.  And that maybe she was only with him because he would be King and not Liam.  Think about it from his perspective and you might understand why he was so angry - so angry that he didn't even give Kate a chance to explain.

I agree he was cold blooded - but it's not like he didn't have good reason to be angry.  He came back from the dead and his baby brother had stolen his girl and was on his way to getting the crown - remember the conversation Liam had with Kate right before he kissed her and Robert saw?  Liam said he was going to be the next King of England.  Imagine coming back from the dead after choosing love and you hear and see THAT.

I know you hate Robert - but you really aren't being totally fair to him.

Quote

His anger at them for not confessing their involvement is one thing, but his treatment of her at the end of the episode was inexcusable. He took advantage of her sexually specifically so he could humiliate her, call her a whore, call her common, and inflict the maximum emotional damage possible. That is reprehensible.

I can agree here - that was just cold blooded.  I do think in his anger he said some really horrible things - something changed.  In the episode with Beck, he was defending "commoners" to Beck (and presumably he already knew about Kate/Liam).  So either something changed (maybe it was Liam talking to him about Kate?) or the writers decided they had to completely destroy the Robert character after the damage they'd done to Liam.

I know some Robert-haters don't want to hear this because it gets in the way of the "Liam is perfect and ready to be King!" narrative, but the writing has SHIFTED.  Canon from the pilot has been regressed to Simon in the finale last night bashing Robert when he DID say that Robert was the best of them.  Nice speak after a death doesn't account for this when Eleanor also had nothing but good things to say about Robert as well.  Sure, we can argue she didn't know him well - but given Robert's actions in the beginning, I'm thinking either a scene got left out that explains his behavior, or the writers wrote themselves into a corner with how bad they trashed Liam that this was their only way out.

Look at how the writers retconned BECK of all people to be an entitled, arrogant, smug asshole when we all saw that he truly wasn't.  They destroyed him to prop up Jasper - why wouldn't the writers do the same to Robert?

I hate imbalanced writing so I'm not sure I'll stick around if all I get is more of the same.  Especially not to prop up Liam the man child.

Quote

I haven't liked the character since he returned. I've found him smug, arrogant, and interested in the trappings of royal life but none of the responsibilities or duties. He seems quite impressed with himself, and certainly seems to believe he was indeed chosen by god to rule over the peasants.

Well he is smug and arrogant - he actually reminds me a lot of how Helena behaved when S1 started.  I guess the show needed another manipulator since they defanged Helena.  Also - monarchs DO believe that they were chosen by God to rule.  Especially in the BRF - that's why for so long, the Church and the Monarchy were one.  It doesn't mean Robert should be smug, but him believing that God placed him there is actually part of the belief of the entire BRF.

[EricJ]

I think you're all missing the implication of Robert staying on the island, combined with what we saw from Simon in their final chess match - Robert arranged it all- had himself shot down, had his father killed, and stayed on the island long enough that he wouldn't be implicated or suspected.

I'm looking forward to a Cyrus semi-redemption arc. I'm not sure how they can get me on his side, but they managed it with Helena. It does occur to me that Robert wasn't around for the paternity questions, and has never himself been tested.

[EarlGreyTea]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

I think you're all missing the implication of Robert staying on the island, combined with what we saw from Simon in their final chess match - Robert arranged it all- had himself shot down, had his father killed, and stayed on the island long enough that he wouldn't be implicated or suspected.

I'm looking forward to a Cyrus semi-redemption arc. I'm not sure how they can get me on his side, but they managed it with Helena. It does occur to me that Robert wasn't around for the paternity questions, and has never himself been tested.

Ah. Now that makes a lot of sense and would fit with what we know about Robert. I feel stupid for not having put it together. Still, Liam hadn't put it together either, so he still looks pretty foolish and jealous until he does. I don't  buy that he gets it either. 

Still, this is all such a retcon it's unbelievable. I'm pretty sure the writers had no idea who killed Simon and changed their plans halfway through with the clumsy reveal of what's his name as the killer. 

I would tip my hat at the sheer genius of the writers if this was their plan all along, but it's clear it wasn't. Up until this season Robert had a halo over his head. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by EarlGreyTea

[Arynm]

I thought the secret he was keeping was that Simon didn't want Robert to be king. So much so that he was willing to dissolve the Monarchy to make it happen.

That to me gives Robert the perfect reason to have his father killed. He was saving his own crown. I would be shocked if Robert didn't order the death of his father Simon.

I would also be amazed if Simon is his father at all. They need a reason to get Robert off the throne and Liam on it. I would rather they put Eleanor on the throne and wash their hands of all the men.

[Popples]

14 hours ago, EarlGreyTea said:

Sorry show, not buying your retcon of Simon wanting to disband the monarchy before Robert died.

Seriously; that was some straight up nonsense!

I have no side when it comes to Liam and Robert, but Liam came off as bitter, petty, and just completely unhinged. If he had at least found half of a clue that could tie Robert to their father's death, sabotaging his own "death", or even simply meddling in Helena and Eleanor's love lives, and everyone else just brushed it off, then I could have taken him seriously. But all he had was "Robert didn't come back as soon as he could have", and the only reaction one can muster is: "so?"

I did love the reaction on Helena's face when Robert told her he had dismissed the Lord Chamberlain. After three seasons of her shouting "I'm the queen of England" all the damn time, it was nice for her to be on the receiving end of it.

1 hour ago, Arynm said:

I would also be amazed if Simon is his father at all. They need a reason to get Robert off the throne and Liam on it. I would rather they put Eleanor on the throne and wash their hands of all the men.

I don't think Eleanor can handle it. I need Robert to marry Willow, get her pregnant, then Robert can fall off a mountain or whatever, and Willow can be queen regent until the child comes of age. Long live Queen Willow, long may she reign. Or #QueenWillow

The return of King Simon in flashback was probably the highlight of the episode for me.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Popples
Forgot something

[catrice2]

I'm pretty sure I posted before that I thought they were going to implicate Robert in his father's death, so this is not surprising to me.  They telegraphed it all season,  especially with the Christmas episode about the "last words" and also it was clear to me at the start that Robert could have gotten off the island sooner.  Maybe I have watched soap operas too long, but I also always suspected Robert was playing cat and mouse with Liam and Kate, but because of the way the show was shot I could not figure out when he would have had a chance to have found out about them.   He made too many comments and it was in his eyes.  It was obvious from the episode that he came back that they were setting Robert up to be a master manipulator.  What doesn't make sense is for them to have him show his hand so soon. 

I had hoped they would not go full blown he caused his father's death.  I am all about family scheming ( I was the biggest Dynasty fan for a few years), but I draw the line at family members killing each other, etc.  Scheming and manipulating, bring it on.   Also, it is just stupid.  What country would go through losing a king, having his brother, having the son and then having the other son or daughter...all within a span of what?  Two years? 

I had no idea that Helena SLEPT with Jasper!!  This just makes me hate that coupling even more than I already do, and all of this even more incestuous considering Liam /Kate/Robert. I can take campy fun (anybody old enough to remember SOAP or Mary Hartman?) but this along with Cyrus' obvious drug use and cavorting with prostitutes, etc. just makes the show almost a comedy.  I understand they thought Robert was dead, but it is still icky to sleep with your brother's girlfriend when he has not even been dead but a minute.  What was worse is that they did not tell him.  If either one of them had just admitted it and explained the reasons why I would have a different view.  If you ask me,the way they shot the episodes Robert really wanted them to put it out in the open and kept giving them the chance....as someone mentioned when he took Liam to see Kate and a few other scenes. 

What I see playing out on my screen is a little boy that was desperate to win his father's approval and to fulfill his duty.  His whole life was geared that way and in the end his father not only rejected him and questioned his capabilities, but he suggested that his character was lacking and that his brother had a better character.  What was interesting and should be noted is that the dad didn't say he thought Liam should be king, or he wanted to pass over Robert for Liam, he wanted to dissolve the whole thing.  I didn't watch at the start of the show, really until this season, but I gather that Helena and Simon were not good parents. That is why I am going to be interested in where Helena lands in this.....yes you may have an evil son, but you have to take some responsibility for creating him.  Clearly if Liam and Eleanor are younger Helena was busy with other things if she thought her husband was not the father.  Hardly at home being mommy of the year to her older son. I personally found the scenes where he was crying to be very affecting, and the flashbacks to be revealing.  I also think that in some of the conversations with Kate he revealed a real longing to just be himself without all the responsibility.  I also think he really did have strong feelings for his little brother (who doesn't tease their sibling, and I'm talking about the relationship before he left, clearly the comments afterward had a different motivation)  and felt really betrayed by him 

It may well be that Robert did not have anything to do with his father's death, but rather just arranged his own disappearance either to have time to think, or because he thought that might halt his father's plans and make him reconsider once he returned.   The taking the letter and firing the aid are small things to me.  Jasper should have been fired a long time ago and it is improper for Eleanor to have a relationship with him while he is employed (and  he is/was a thief and con man)  and the same for Helena.   All that does is open the family up to scandal and blackmail.  It's not like Helena had checked the man's background before she slept with him or that she would consider a serious relationship with him.  She proved that by flaunting the American man in his face.  I also think it was just sloppy writing to  have Robert contact Jasper's father himself.   Surely they are not suggesting Robert had the plane downed, and/or that he thought Helena was going to be on it? 

What perplexes me is why is Liam going to Cyrus when he has Jasper, the wonder??   Common sense should tell him Cyrus cannot be trusted, and can he just  easily forgive everything that Cyrus has done, but not his own brother? They are also setting Robert up when it is Liam's inner circle that will be closest to him to spy and report back to Liam.....Jasper, Willow and Jasper's boss...and Eleanor when she realizes Robert plotted against her pairing with Jasper.  Will there be anyone to be team Robert? It is a shame that on a show called the Royals, they want to demonize the only character that they managed to write as royal and not just a cartoon character. 

I agree, there was plenty to explore here without so totally destroying Robert.  The only redemption they may have is not to involve him with his father's death, just with faking his own.  It is clear he has some issues and needs some counseling, but he and Eleanor should have back to back appointments. 

Not looking forward to how they explain Eleanor's staying, It is a shame. In the hands of better writers and on a different network this could really be a break out hit. 

Just a note to add I am not used to seeing Max Brown play the bad guy, but I think he is doing a great job and he really does out act everyone on this show.  I may check in on the boards next season to stay up to date and to see how many of the foreshadowing will come true....we already know we will see Jasper's father , Robert may or may not have killed his father....Liam will work with Cyrus only to be betrayed by Cyrus...Jasper and Eleanor will reunite ....his "hubris" will be his downfall.  Next season has already been designated as the fall of Robert....how will it all play out?

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, catrice2 said:

It is a shame that on a show called the Royals, they want to demonize the only character that they managed to write as royal and not just a cartoon character. 

 

Honestly THIS.  THIS Right here.  Besides Simon, who is dead, the ONLY character that has ever played truly like a real royal has been Robert.  He personified royalty so well that when he surprised Kate at the diner I actually squealed like it was for real royalty showing up - I was surprised at my own reaction.  The only time I felt a smidgeon of that was when Liam took Ophelia out for coffee and the cameras were everywhere - but even that was nothing compared to Robert just showing up like that and surprising Kate.

It's truly a waste to lay all of this at Robert's feet - just poor storytelling.  If you look at the show objectively, William Moseley just never had the acting chops to truly be a leading man - that's why Robert was so compelling.  I liked Liam when he was sweet and affable and trying to find his dad's killer - but if they truly make Robert the killer I am so not here for that at all.  The cast loses something if they make Robert a murderer.  First, it's too predictable and feels like Liam fangirl fanfiction and Second, it's just too bloody predictable.  Everyone is saying they think Robert aranged everything (including killing Jack?) - I just can't with that.  If that is where this is going, count me out.  It's sad - I really liked this show.

Ugh.  I was so excited when they showed Robert was still alive and now this mess.

Liam once thought Cyrus was behind his father's death and it turned out that it was Ted.  And Ted was supposedly responsible for Robert's plane crash too.  So now they're gonna lay that at Robert's feet?  Ugh.  I'm not excited about that at all.  My only hope is that it isn't true - but I doubt it.  The show wants Liam to "win" so it's going to destroy Robert so Liam can win.  Thus if Liam goes after Robert then Robert is gonna end up guilty.  

Count me out for S4 unless something changes.

Edited February 20, 2017 by phoenics

[nilyank]

I don't know.

Having Liam team up with Cyrus, just points more clearly that Liam is a petty little spare who wants his brother's throne. Just like Cyrus.

Now Robert may have been manipulative, but Robert was raised to be the next king. Short of killing him, I don't see how they will take him off the throne even if it turns out that he was not Simon's biological son. 

[waving feather]

I haven't watch this episode, and not sure if I am going to after reading the comments. I'm not here for the character assassination of the best character on the show. 

They brought back Robert from the dead to be an evil manipulator, seriously? What next? He psychologically manipulated Ted to go off the deep end and kill his father? I'm out for S4 if this line of storytelling continues. 

[phoenics]

2 hours ago, nilyank said:

I don't know.

Having Liam team up with Cyrus, just points more clearly that Liam is a petty little spare who wants his brother's throne. Just like Cyrus.

Now Robert may have been manipulative, but Robert was raised to be the next king. Short of killing him, I don't see how they will take him off the throne even if it turns out that he was not Simon's biological son. 

They'll probably have it turn out that Robert was behind Simon being killed.  I really hope that's not where they are going - because it's character assassination of the worst kind and CLEARLY not the original intent - but I don't trust these writers.

Look what happened to poor Beck - he completely got trashed to make Jasper look better.

[EarlGreyTea]

14 hours ago, MsTree said:

Agree with everything you said re: Liam. Robert treats Liam like shit. If he's doing it because of Kathryn, then man up, Robert, and admit that you're hurt. Stop the game playing and one-upmanship.

IMO, Robert is the one acting like a baby fool...constantly taunting Liam. And why on earth would he interfere in Len & Jasper's relationship? What's he got against both of them? And I don't believe for one second he's trying to "protect" his sister either. He's just plain jealous because his relationship with Kathryn didn't work out the way he expected it to. That's no reason (whiny ass baby) to sabotage anyone else's relationship. 

See, I love Jasper and Eleanor, and you actually make a great point that Robert is bitter that he can't have his own civilian relationship, but Jasper really deserves it, honestly. Robert hasn't seen Jasper's evolution over the seasons like we have. Robert really only knows the bare bones of it - Jasper conned Eleanor, blackmailed her, slept with Helena (Robert probably doesn't know that, admittedly), etc., etc. It doesn't matter how much he's changed, the way he came into Eleanor's life was shady at best and nothing is going to change that. And he's supposed to protect them - how is he supposed to do that when he's too emotionally involved? You could argue that Robert should trust Eleanor's judgment, but frankly, she was a hot mess when Robert "died." He is only getting an inkling of how she's changed since then.

4 hours ago, phoenics said:

Honestly THIS.  THIS Right here.  Besides Simon, who is dead, the ONLY character that has ever played truly like a real royal has been Robert.  He personified royalty so well that when he surprised Kate at the diner I actually squealed like it was for real royalty showing up - I was surprised at my own reaction.  The only time I felt a smidgeon of that was when Liam took Ophelia out for coffee and the cameras were everywhere - but even that was nothing compared to Robert just showing up like that and surprising Kate.

It's truly a waste to lay all of this at Robert's feet - just poor storytelling.  If you look at the show objectively, William Moseley just never had the acting chops to truly be a leading man - that's why Robert was so compelling.  I liked Liam when he was sweet and affable and trying to find his dad's killer - but if they truly make Robert the killer I am so not here for that at all.  The cast loses something if they make Robert a murderer.  First, it's too predictable and feels like Liam fangirl fanfiction and Second, it's just too bloody predictable.  Everyone is saying they think Robert aranged everything (including killing Jack?) - I just can't with that.  If that is where this is going, count me out.  It's sad - I really liked this show.

Ugh.  I was so excited when they showed Robert was still alive and now this mess.

*slow clap* And this about sums it up for me. My interest in the show was lagging majorly, but the moment - and I mean the MOMENT - Robert showed up was a game changer for me. The show was floundering in the boring murder mystery saga, Jasper/Eleanor were going in circles, Willow and Liam didn't do it for me, etc. But bringing back the supposedly sainted dead brother made me sit up and pay attention.

And the second Max Brown shaved off that beard and became princely, I was hooked. I'm a huge British royals junkie, and I have to suspend a LOT of disbelief to watch this show. It's hard for me to buy the others as royals, particularly with their outfits, but I never questioned that Robert was a royal. He looks, sounds, and acts like he belongs there. He out-royals all of them without even trying. Even his disdain of his family dating "the help" is rooted in real life; some royals are notoriously snobby. He is the only actor, aside from Simon, whom I can buy as a royal.

Edited February 21, 2017 by EarlGreyTea

[phoenics]

5 minutes ago, EarlGreyTea said:

See, I love Jasper and Eleanor, and you actually make a great point that Robert is bitter that he can't have his own civilian relationship, but Jasper really deserves it, honestly. Robert hasn't seen Jasper's evolution over the seasons like we have. Robert really only knows the bare bones of it - Jasper conned Eleanor, blackmailed her, slept with Helena (Robert probably doesn't know that, admittedly), etc., etc. It doesn't matter how much he's changed, the way he came into Eleanor's life was shady at best and nothing is going to change that. And he's supposed to protect them - how is he supposed to do that when he's too emotionally involved? You could argue that Robert should trust Eleanor's judgment, but frankly, she was a hot mess when Robert "died." He is only getting an inkling of how she's changed since then.

*slow clap* And this about sums it up for me. My interest in the show was lagging majorly, but the moment - and I mean the MOMENT - Robert showed up was a game changer for me. The show was floundering in the boring murder mystery saga, Jasper/Eleanor were going in circles, Willow and Liam didn't do it for me, etc. But bringing back the supposedly sainted dead brother made me sit up and pay attention.

And the second Max Brown shaved off that beard and became princely, I was hooked. I'm a huge British royals junkie, and I have to suspend a LOT of disbelief to watch this show. It's hard for me to buy the others as royals, particularly with their outfits, but I never questioned that Robert was a royal. He looks, sounds, and acts like he belongs there. He out-royals all of them without even trying. Even his disdain of his family dating "the help" is rooted in real life; some royals are notoriously snobby. He is the only actor, aside from Simon, whom I can buy as a royal.

OMG I so agree!  I NEVER could buy the rest as royals - but then Robert showed up and bloody hell and FML he was IT!!  

And I couldn't agree more - when Robert shaved off that beard and got up in front of the press for his interview after he returned - Lord I practically drooled.  Max Brown just embodied royalty so much that I bought it hook, line and sinker.  Even Helena never registered to me as royal - what with that little hop-walk she has (ugh).  And Len dressing like a hooker and Liam just being so boring (he's just not leading material) - blech.

I had a thought that maybe what they could do with Robert is use him as a "JR Ewing" king of character - or a Lucious Lyon kind of character - give him a real love (Willow) but let him be at odds with his brother (Bobby/Liam) if need be and RUTHLESS - but please let them get over this acrimony.  It's tiring.

If they are determined to make Robert a villain - at least make him compelling and gray like JR Ewing and not just cardboard.

[seachica]

Robert and Max Brown threw this show into complete chaos. Before Max came on the scene, the show was all about Liam. The writing was sporadic, the characters were boring (Liam is extremely dull, but makes for good teengirl candy), and the plotline was secondary to getting the teengirl twitter-sphere going. The Max came in and threw that plan out the window. Suddenly they had a good actor and a compelling character. The show *should* have pivoted -- the writers clearly wanted to pivot -- but they were stuck with a teengirl fanbase that was invested in their eye candy. So now we're stuck with a show with no direction, a "villain" who is more royal and more interesting than the "hero", and writers who are desperately trying to figure out where to take the show. 

Season 1 was good enough to get me to keep me watching. But now that I've had a taste of Robert, I can't go back to that cotton candy show. I'd rather watch a TV show centered around Robert, evil or not. It's the difference between a fine camembert and Velveeta.

[catrice2]

Ewww!!  I never knew Helena slept with Jasper!  And now he is Liam's best friend?  How strange...drinking with the person who has not just slept with your sister, but your mother.   Robert seems to have done some homework.  Maybe he knew about this as well.   The link in the media thread was not very promising. 

[EarlGreyTea]

3 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

Ewww!!  I never knew Helena slept with Jasper!  And now he is Liam's best friend?  How strange...drinking with the person who has not just slept with your sister, but your mother.   Robert seems to have done some homework.  Maybe he knew about this as well.   The link in the media thread was not very promising. 

In his defense, Helena kind of blackmailed him into it. That's what set off Eleanor and Jasper fight #20305. It took Eleanor a LONG time to get over it, and when Liam found out, he was pissed too.  Liam's bond with Eleanor is one of his best qualities. In the beginning they were somewhat distant with one another, and the slow, organic friendship they've forged is one of the series' best storylines. A friendship that may never have formed without Robert dying.

29 minutes ago, seachica said:

Robert and Max Brown threw this show into complete chaos. Before Max came on the scene, the show was all about Liam. The writing was sporadic, the characters were boring (Liam is extremely dull, but makes for good teengirl candy), and the plotline was secondary to getting the teengirl twitter-sphere going. The Max came in and threw that plan out the window. Suddenly they had a good actor and a compelling character. The show *should* have pivoted -- the writers clearly wanted to pivot -- but they were stuck with a teengirl fanbase that was invested in their eye candy. So now we're stuck with a show with no direction, a "villain" who is more royal and more interesting than the "hero", and writers who are desperately trying to figure out where to take the show. 

Season 1 was good enough to get me to keep me watching. But now that I've had a taste of Robert, I can't go back to that cotton candy show. I'd rather watch a TV show centered around Robert, evil or not. It's the difference between a fine camembert and Velveeta.

Love this post but I'm not altogether convinced the writers know what they have in Brown. It seems clear to me that Liam is the hill the writers want to die on. No doubt in my mind that the show will end with Robert totally disgraced. Which is a shame, because showrunners only dream about the perfect combination of good acting and well-executed storylines such as the one Robert had before he turned heel.

[catrice2]

Well, I only like Helena slightly more than Liam and Eleanor only slightly more than Helena.  At this point my favorite characters are Mr. HIll?? Robert and Cyrus...and Cyrus is quickly losing favor.   I wish they would get rid of that annoying little girl. 

I am not counting Sebastian because clearly he is not staying around.   He did look great all dressed up.  Hope to see the athlete turned actor in something soon. By the way, I think I saw Helena's assistant or whatever she was that set up the meeting with the escort.  Someone mentioned in a thread that she had disappeared. 

[NutMeg]

Pitching in to say that Robert is the most interesting character for me.

All the others appear very shallow just for never having had a tough about what it felt like for him, left to die on that island.

Simon's retcon was bad story telling.

I can understand the brother and the girlfriend of a "dead" dude comforting each other, and that leading to more. I'm eye rolling thought in this case because it took Liam more than two seasons (with a "dead" brother in the pilot) to realize Kate was the love of his life. Had he been at least thinking of her earlier, I could have bought it.

Jasper, what can I say? I wish Eleanor was not defined only by her love life, and I'm all ready for her to kick ass in whatever career she choses. Why does that guy keep holding her back? It seems very toxic to me.

If I were Eleanor, I'd love for my big brother to bring opportunities in my life, not romantic opportunities but work opportunities where I can find myself by doing things that I enjoy doing. 

I did love Eleanor telling Liam that he was acting just like Cyrus. Alas, I fear Liam will be proven right by the writers... He's still a jealous, vengeful prick in my book. The sad thing is that the empathy he was shown to possess doesn't extend to relatives who he thought the sky of and who "came back from the dead". Yes, Liam, whatever you say, you big baby.  

So now Robert, who's the best thing to happen to this show after Queen Helena, Cyrus 1.0 and Eleanor 1.0, is going to be evil? Yeah, I don't think that was necessary, but hopefully he'll evolve in the story as Helena did, without being totally damaged, and Liam will realize he got it wrong, apologize to his brother and get to live his new one true love with Kate and be happy with his charities and affectionately snarking with Cyrus. Yeah, I'm not convinced the writers will go there, but I wish they would.

Not sure what to think of the body double of Cyrus - was he testing the Russian roulette first? Then why Cyrus' reaction "oh, not again?" ?     

[gameoff]

Commenting before I read because I'll forget what I wanted to say.  

The reveal that Robert knew about Liam and Katherine was a surprise to me and it was interesting to see how Robert was behind the scenes messing with things (like the letter).  I wonder if we will find out next season that he had something to do with his father's death?

I really enjoyed this episode.

[peachmangosteen]

I'm torn. One one hand I kinda love Robert even more now because the reveals in the episode make him even more interesting and compelling and Max Brown is just fantastic. But if they really go there with him having orchestrated Simon's death then I'll be disappointed because that's a step too far for me to still really root for him.

I was bored by or hated most of this ep tbh. But when they showed Willow's name at the top of Robert's wife list I was like, "Well, I guess I'll definitely be watching next season." Those two have it already and they've only shared two scenes.

I really hope the writers see what they have in Robert/Max Brown and the potential in Willow/Robert and change the course they appear to be going on with Robert.

Does anyone know if all these episodes were already written before the began airing? I'm trying to decide whether I think this was their plan or if they did this due to the backlash from Liam fans.

Edited February 21, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[phoenics]

5 hours ago, Gabrielle Tracy said:

Wouldn't surprise me.  After all, Simon wanted to disband the monarchy in order to keep Robert from becoming king.  That had to hurt!

No - he wanted to disband the monarchy for the whole family.  Because in the pilot, he STILL wanted to disband the monarchy and Robert was dead.  If it was only Robert, then he would have abandoned his plans to disband the monarchy once he was gone/dead.  He didn't.  Even when Liam was in line to become King then, he STILL wanted to disband the monarchy.

Robert may have taken it that way - Simon really didn't make it clear what his intentions were fully - but that's not what or why Simon did it.  Or that wasn't the only reason. Simon stated this very clearly in the pilot - and in the pilot he made it pretty clear that Robert was the best of them and that he missed him with "every breath" - this latest stuff feels like a huge retcon for Liam's benefit by the writers, but whatever.

Hopefully they'll make Robert like JR Ewing - ruthless but still with some kind of heart - but hopefully not behind his father's murder.  That just seems so predictable and kinda fan-fiction-ish (to tear down Robert to uplift Liam - better writers wouldn't need to do this).

[xtwheeler]

On 2/20/2017 at 5:13 AM, phoenics said:

Ugh - does anyone know how I can directly edit the text in my post?  It messed up the quotes and I can't edit it because they removed the ability to switch the text back to html script.

Just go back to your post, and click on the little pencil icon you see on the bottom left -- to the left of the quotation marks you would click on to quote someone else's post.  It will pop up your post in edit mode, where you can edit to your heart's content, as well as give you a box wherein you can note your reason for the edit.  Hope that helps!

[EarlGreyTea]

3 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I'm torn. One one hand I kinda love Robert even more now because the reveals in the episode make him even more interesting and compelling and Max Brown is just fantastic. But if they really go there with him having orchestrated Simon's death then I'll be disappointed because that's a step too far for me to still really root for him.

I was bored by or hated most of this ep tbh. But when they showed Willow's name at the top of Robert's wife list I was like, "Well, I guess I'll definitely be watching next season." Those two have it already and they've only shared two scenes.

I really hope the writers see what they have in Robert/Max Brown and the potential in Willow/Robert and change the course they appear to be going on with Robert.

Does anyone know if all these episodes were already written before the began airing? I'm trying to decide whether I think this was their plan or if they did this due to the backlash from Liam fans.

I was browsing the actors' instagrams and it looks like they wrapped the season in December, so just around the time the season began? So not enough time for the showrunners to gauge the audience reaction to characters.

I was amused that Willow's name wasn't typed at the top of the list, but handwritten. I like to think he added her after his conversation with her at the match. I also don't think it's an accident that he chose the person who came up with the #kingliam hashtag. Methinks he sees her PR talents and wants to keep her off Liam's team and take her for his. Also, ouch at Kathryn not even being his number two pick. I saw her fairly far down the list. Then again, he DID know she was sleeping with Liam behind his back the whole time. I wonder what he would have ranked her if he didn't know.

Now I really want to rewatch all of Robert's scenes with Kathryn, knowing that he knew the whole time (I wonder if the WRITERS knew that Robert knew about her and Liam). I bet he gave them the benefit of the doubt and expected them to come clean, so he gave them a lot of opportunities to tell him. Still, it was a bit much having him call her a whore. There was no need to resort to that, especially since he could have gotten his point across anyway.

Yeah, I can accept anything from Robert but murdering his father. Which, judging by the unexplained but still anvil-like "He was on the island for longer than was necessary" proclamations from Liam - it's going to happen. Mark it down. Hopefully the writers change their minds, but I doubt it. I hope we get some good Willow scenes in the meantime.

Edited February 22, 2017 by EarlGreyTea

[phoenics]

4 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I'm torn. One one hand I kinda love Robert even more now because the reveals in the episode make him even more interesting and compelling and Max Brown is just fantastic. But if they really go there with him having orchestrated Simon's death then I'll be disappointed because that's a step too far for me to still really root for him.

I was bored by or hated most of this ep tbh. But when they showed Willow's name at the top of Robert's wife list I was like, "Well, I guess I'll definitely be watching next season." Those two have it already and they've only shared two scenes.

I really hope the writers see what they have in Robert/Max Brown and the potential in Willow/Robert and change the course they appear to be going on with Robert.

Does anyone know if all these episodes were already written before the began airing? I'm trying to decide whether I think this was their plan or if they did this due to the backlash from Liam fans.

I don't think they did it due to backlash from Liam fans - but I do think they wrote themselves into a bit of a corner with how they portrayed Liam most of the season.  I think they also didn't realize just what a powerhouse they had in Max Brown and so I think they decided to really let him cut loose with some ruthlessness.  The ruthlessness for me only made him sexier - and if they can manage to let him BE ruthless with his enemies but with a soft spot for Willow - I am SO THERE.

Making him responsible for Simon's murder though?  NO GO.  Way to ruin the show's best asset.

But honestly I think the writers always meant to eventually put Liam on the throne and have him "win", they just underestimated Max Brown and the powerful aura he has.  I know Liam fans hate him, but they were going to hate him regardless because he challenged Liam and seemed to take what they believed should be Liam's.  They were hating him for breathing, so I don't think they tore him down just to appease them.  I do think that it was a combination of realizing that they 1) wrote Liam into a corner and 2) Max Brown is simply a powerhouse with amazing charisma and magnetism that finding a way to showcase him in any way was a priority.  Liam was the "good" one so they had to create a more complex anti-hero or villainous role for Robert.

1 hour ago, xtwheeler said:

Just go back to your post, and click on the little pencil icon you see on the bottom left -- to the left of the quotation marks you would click on to quote someone else's post.  It will pop up your post in edit mode, where you can edit to your heart's content, as well as give you a box wherein you can note your reason for the edit.  Hope that helps!

Yeah - mine isn't coming up with the html tags in it though - it's in a mode with boxes upon boxes.  It happened when they did an update to the site some months ago - I used to be able to edit with html tags (seeing the script instead of the "preview" mode), but not anymore...

1 hour ago, EarlGreyTea said:

I was browsing the actors' instagrams and it looks like they wrapped the season in December, so just around the time the season began? So not enough time for the showrunners to gauge the audience reaction to characters.

I was amused that Willow's name wasn't typed at the top of the list, but handwritten. I like to think he added her after his conversation with her at the match. I also don't think it's an accident that he chose the person who came up with the #kingliam hashtag. Methinks he sees her PR talents and wants to keep her off Liam's team and take her for his. Also, ouch at Kathryn not even being his number two pick. I saw her fairly far down the list. Then again, he DID know she was sleeping with Liam behind his back the whole time. I wonder what he would have ranked her if he didn't know.

Now I really want to rewatch all of Robert's scenes with Kathryn, knowing that he knew the whole time (I wonder if the WRITERS knew that Robert knew about her and Liam). I bet he gave them the benefit of the doubt and expected them to come clean, so he gave them a lot of opportunities to tell him. Still, it was a bit much having him call her a whore. There was no need to resort to that, especially since he could have gotten his point across anyway.

Yeah, I can accept anything from Robert but murdering his father. Which, judging by the unexplained but still anvil-like "He was on the island for longer than was necessary" proclamations from Liam - it's going to happen. Mark it down. Hopefully the writers change their minds, but I doubt it. I hope we get some good Willow scenes in the meantime.

I think that if you go back and watch Robert's scenes, you will see that (especially in 3x01-02), Robert kept hinting at stuff.  He told Kathryn, "unless there is someone else" and Liam "you're texting someone a lot, must be someone special", etc..  There were several times he did that.  I think he thought or hoped that they would come clean, but they never did.  Then Liam's awful behavior got worse and worse.  He went from simply being a little down and distracted to being outright pissed, angry and hostile to his brother - who hadn't done ANYTHING to him except live.

Also - I wonder if after the Christmas dinner when Liam went to Kate and tried to get her to be with him - if Robert somehow found out about that.

I also think that Robert really was forgiving Kate - but when he realized she'd been in contact with Liam after he became King, he just couldn't tolerate it anymore - and worried they were still sleeping together.  Because his about face with her was a bit abrupt.  His scenes with her leading up to that felt too genuine - so either Max Brown didn't know what the writers were doing - or something changed - maybe there is a deleted scene somewhere?

But LOL - Kate was like #7 on the typed list, lol.

I really, really hope the writers do NOT make Max Brown behind Simon's death - that would totally be a retcon and really bad writing.  It would also be a complete waste.  I know Robert has sovereign immunity, but that's for crimes committed while he's King, right?  Not anything before?  I just couldn't bear seeing him disappear like Joan Collins from the show.

It's so upsetting to me because Max Brown is needed on this show - it needed a shot of something and this ruthless turn is it. 

[xtwheeler]

Sorry the editing isn't working for you--ive had great luck contacting TPTB through FB/Twitter. 

Show wise, I've never felt so out of step. I'm not a "Liam fangirl" so my opinion can't just be dismissed out of hand as tween crush angst. 

I find the actor playing Robert really stiff and absolutely lacking in charisma. Every scene screeches to a halt for me when he walks into the room, and his affect is completely wrong for this show, in my opinion. Staid, smug arrogance might be more authentically "royal" but I sure didn't sign up for an E network show for authenticity. 

I also actually find him so homely it's physically hard to look at him. I guess someone has to be the oddball opinion here! 

[phoenics]

2 minutes ago, xtwheeler said:

Sorry the editing isn't working for you--ive had great luck contacting TPTB through FB/Twitter. 

Show wise, I've never felt so out of step. I'm not a "Liam fangirl" so my opinion can't just be dismissed out of hand as tween crush angst. 

I find the actor playing Robert really stiff and absolutely lacking in charisma. Every scene screeches to a halt for me when he walks into the room, and his affect is completely wrong for this show, in my opinion. Staid, smug arrogance might be more authentically "royal" but I sure didn't sign up for an E network show for authenticity. 

I also actually find him so homely it's physically hard to look at him. I guess someone has to be the oddball opinion here! 

Well - different strokes for different folks!

I did gasp in horror though when you said Max was "homely".  LOL!

Edited February 22, 2017 by phoenics

[xtwheeler]

1 minute ago, phoenics said:

Well - different strokes for different folks!

I did gasp in horror though when you said Max was "homely".  LOL!

Like to the point if I were Elizabeth Hurley I'd refuse to accept the implication we were genetically related. :) 

Though it seems a lot of folks have also seen him in other work, which I have not, and quite often fond feelings for one character do carry over, I think. 

[EarlGreyTea]

15 minutes ago, xtwheeler said:

Sorry the editing isn't working for you--ive had great luck contacting TPTB through FB/Twitter. 

Show wise, I've never felt so out of step. I'm not a "Liam fangirl" so my opinion can't just be dismissed out of hand as tween crush angst. 

I find the actor playing Robert really stiff and absolutely lacking in charisma. Every scene screeches to a halt for me when he walks into the room, and his affect is completely wrong for this show, in my opinion. Staid, smug arrogance might be more authentically "royal" but I sure didn't sign up for an E network show for authenticity. 

I also actually find him so homely it's physically hard to look at him. I guess someone has to be the oddball opinion here! 

Yeah, I was thinking it seems like Max Brown is on a different show than the others sometimes. The others play their characters so cartoon-ish, and seem to be in on the joke (Moseley seems to mope too much, but that may be an effect of the writing than anything else). Brown plays it a little more straight, a little more dignified. But to me that's a welcome change. As I said earlier, I never had trouble buying him as a British royal, whereas the others seem more like Monaco royals (a little more, ahem, trashy). They probably should have made the whole show about a fake monachy, like Genovia from the Princess Diaries, because basing it on a real country just invites comparison.

He DOES seem stiff and smug, but to me it seems to be an acting choice rather than a lack of skill, and again this is where Brown's portrayal almost as if from another show comes in. He puts on a public and a private mask, like royals IRL do. The other royals on the show seem to be down to earth almost to a fault (like Eleanor), with the exception of Helena, who acts just about what you'd expect in a royal snob. But I also think it's a deliberate choice to showcase the heir (polished and stiff) and the spares, who are hot messes in general. Before Robert came on the show, I wondered a LOT about the kind of person he was and the kind of dynamic he had with his siblings. I'm so glad they brought him back.

I find him pretty hot, but pretty much all of the men on the show are attractive to me. Although to me he's got nothing on Jasper in his suit and earpiece.

[phoenics]

On 2/20/2017 at 9:40 PM, seachica said:

Robert and Max Brown threw this show into complete chaos. Before Max came on the scene, the show was all about Liam. The writing was sporadic, the characters were boring (Liam is extremely dull, but makes for good teengirl candy), and the plotline was secondary to getting the teengirl twitter-sphere going. The Max came in and threw that plan out the window. Suddenly they had a good actor and a compelling character. The show *should* have pivoted -- the writers clearly wanted to pivot -- but they were stuck with a teengirl fanbase that was invested in their eye candy. So now we're stuck with a show with no direction, a "villain" who is more royal and more interesting than the "hero", and writers who are desperately trying to figure out where to take the show. 

Season 1 was good enough to get me to keep me watching. But now that I've had a taste of Robert, I can't go back to that cotton candy show. I'd rather watch a TV show centered around Robert, evil or not. It's the difference between a fine camembert and Velveeta.

Couldn't agree more.  If the writers were smart - they'd have figured out a way to get Robert to voluntarily give up the throne so Liam could have it and then go off with Kate.  Only problem is that Kate is dull as dishwater.  But now that they've pivoted to Max/Willow, maybe they will stick with it.  Mark Schwartz's mother seems to adore Max Brown and also loves Willow/Robert, so maybe she can convince her son to not completely destroy Robert.

TBH - I think they defanged Helena too soon too.  They humanized her, but now they've made her kinda dull too and they are using her almost for laughs - while Liam gets plot armor and slanted writing in his favor.

I think the writers caving so hard to fandom wishes with Ophelia hurt them in the long run.

[catrice2]

28 minutes ago, xtwheeler said:

Like to the point if I were Elizabeth Hurley I'd refuse to accept the implication we were genetically related. :) 

Though it seems a lot of folks have also seen him in other work, which I have not, and quite often fond feelings for one character do carry over, I think. 

Yeah, but she can accept Eleanor, who looks 20 years older than her, as her daughter? 

[EarlGreyTea]

1 minute ago, phoenics said:

I think the writers caving so hard to fandom wishes with Ophelia hurt them in the long run.

You gotta elaborate on this, please. What happened? I thought Merritt got a gig on another show or something? I think they were unpopular, right? I miss Ophelia after seeing the black hole of charisma we have now in Kathryn (with apologies to the actress, as they have given her nothing to work with).

[phoenics]

53 minutes ago, xtwheeler said:

Like to the point if I were Elizabeth Hurley I'd refuse to accept the implication we were genetically related. :) 

Though it seems a lot of folks have also seen him in other work, which I have not, and quite often fond feelings for one character do carry over, I think. 

Awww oh noes, lol!  You know - weird thing is - I only saw him in two shows:  Beauty and the Beast and one episode of Sleepy Hollow.  I was kinda unimpressed in both.  I THINK it was because they made him have American accents in both - so he just didn't catch on with me.  I didn't really find him all that attractive at all...

But then, he showed up on The Royals and I was mesmerized.  I mean - he completely held my attention with NO LINES while he was on the island in the S3 premiere.  I think he ended up with a few lines toward the end of the episode - but much of that time, he had ZERO lines and was just so compelling - just wow.  Then he shaved off the beard and I was done for.

I can't explain how he went from "meh" when I saw him on other shows to "holy crap he's hot" on this show other than his royal persona and ability to actually seem truly royal in a way NO ONE ELSE on this show managed.  I think the campiness took me out of the show too much with the other characters and I had trouble really buying that they were royal so a lot of this just seemed stupid.  Plus Liam had kinda played himself out to me and I realized he just wasn't a good leading man.  Jasper can't be a leading man - he's not a royal - so the show needed something.  Robert was it - for me at least.

Also - I happened to catch one of the Narnia flicks and realized that WM hasn't grown as an actor at all - he's the same as he was in all of them. 

21 minutes ago, EarlGreyTea said:

You gotta elaborate on this, please. What happened? I thought Merritt got a gig on another show or something? I think they were unpopular, right? I miss Ophelia after seeing the black hole of charisma we have now in Kathryn (with apologies to the actress, as they have given her nothing to work with).

From what I read here and online, many fans just didn't like Ophelia - or more accurately the actress portraying her - she got a lot of hate here, on FB and reddit (I reviewed online stuff and all old episodes when I picked up the show a few months ago).  So when she "got another show" it looked more like the show got rid of her (caving to that hatred).  Because her show went nowhere, right?  Or did she actually have a show?  Then they completely made Ted the murderer - when I don't think that's what they originally intended - no way they would have made him the murderer when Ophelia was with Liam (or when there was a chance that could happen).  And if Ted was still on the show, Ophelia as an option would always be there.  By making him the murderer, you completely kill any chance for her to ever come back.  Liam could never become King if he was with the daughter of the man who killed his father.

So - given how wholeheartedly the show killed the whole Ophelia story, that reads more like THEY wanted to get rid of her and not the other way around.

Edited February 22, 2017 by phoenics

[pivot]

11 hours ago, gameoff said:

Commenting before I read because I'll forget what I wanted to say.  

The reveal that Robert knew about Liam and Katherine was a surprise to me and it was interesting to see how Robert was behind the scenes messing with things (like the letter).  I wonder if we will find out next season that he had something to do with his father's death?

I really enjoyed this episode.

I was ready to give up the show until tonight. Making Robert an evil mastermind saved the show IMO. Now that they declawed Helena and made Cyrus a cartoon character, the show needed an evil character to root against. Plus, I think having the King want to end the monarchy due to Robert's character makes more sense than the original reason for ending the monarchy in season 1.

[peachmangosteen]

11 hours ago, xtwheeler said:

... his affect is completely wrong for this show, in my opinion. Staid, smug arrogance might be more authentically "royal" but I sure didn't sign up for an E network show for authenticity. 

I completely agree. Robert/Max Brown is really quite an out of place character/actor on this show. Although now that they've gone with him being the evilest evil that ever eviled, he fits more.

Quote

I also actually find him so homely it's physically hard to look at him.

I also mostly agree with this. Without the beard, he is not attractive to me physically. He makes up for it with his acting though.

Edited February 22, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[mochamajesty]

22 hours ago, gameoff said:

Commenting before I read because I'll forget what I wanted to say.  

The reveal that Robert knew about Liam and Katherine was a surprise to me and it was interesting to see how Robert was behind the scenes messing with things (like the letter).  I wonder if we will find out next season that he had something to do with his father's death?

I really enjoyed this episode.

I knew the minute that Robert invited Liam to come with him to see Katherine that he knew.   You come back from the dead, and you want to see your girlfriend.  Why would you bring your brother - or anyone - with you?  I said to myself, 'Yep, he knows and he is either giving them a chance to tell him or he is rubbing it in their faces."

[Cupcakes]

Did anyone else notice on the blackboard at Kathryn's it said "Friday- Results from doctor"? Looks like guesses that she will be pregnant and not know which is the father might be true. 

[Popples]

That's quite the catch, @Cupcakes; good eye! I may be back for season four.