Endgame Discussion and Speculation

[MarySNJ]

At Mod's request, moving this from the Beyond the Wall thread: 

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  5 HOURS AGO,  HEATHROWE SAID: 

I think Dany is going to fall short of the throne, and that will be the "bittersweet" - and while at this point, all signs point to Jon Snow on the Iron Throne, it just seems so obvious, I can't sign on. And I can't agree that the Jon-Dany romance is endgame or what the whole series has been leading to with the squicky incest. To me-the whole point of the series is the Starks, but not so much that any of them need the Iron Throne-to me it was more about their return to the North, at Winterfell. And larger story with Jon and the White Walkers and the whole end of the world if he doesn't do something about it.

 

Milage may vary. I don't see Jon on the Iron Throne at all. I don't think he would want it even if he was declared Rhaegar's true born heir. If he was elected by the Lords and Small folk of Westeros, he might consider being their Leader, but honestly I think the Iron Throne will just be a symbol of a bygone era by the time Spring comes. 

I think Jon and Dany are "end game" although not necessarily in the "happily ever after" sort of way. I think Jon will struggle with his true identity when it is revealed, especially if he falls in love with, marries or become lovers with Daenerys. Nevertheless, I think their partnership will be necessary to resolving the conflict and ending the Long Night 2.0 in some way, and that's probably what GRRM meant when he met with D&D.  This episode was the real starting point for their crucial partnership. 

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  2 HOURS AGO,  GRACEK SAID: 

A Jon and Sansa pairing is disgusting and would come out of nowhere. Just because they become aware that they are not actually siblings, it doesn't mean that There entire childhood is erased and they suddenly have the hots for each  other . Jon would kill himself before he would have sex with Sansa and Sansa has never given the impression that she is in love with him. It's only been recently that she has even learned to respect him. To her he's her BROTHER and vice versa.

i don't understand this idea that 2 strangers who meet and find out they are related is more squicky that 2 siblings who realize they aren't as closely related. 

 

Well said. There are some interesting psychological effects of familial relationships especially when children grow up together from very early ages (birth to 6). My friend was actually commenting on this when she saw that Cersei is supposedly pregnant again. My friend's adopted and has two adopted brothers. She said "I don't even share DNA with my brothers but the thought of wanting to have sex with them is gross."   Growing up with someone who you think of as a sibling is more important than degree of consanguinity. Jon loves Arya and Sansa as sisters and I just can't see that all the sudden changing if it's revealed that they are actually cousins.  

On the other hand, strangers who are unaware that they are closely related, may be very attracted to each other. 

[SeanC]

4 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I agree with most of your predictions except Jon who I think definitely lives and Missandei who I think lives only because Dany already lost a devoted attendant. 

I'm not clear what you disagree with about Missandei.  I have her in the "lives" column.

[SimoneS]

6 hours ago, SeanC said:

I'm not clear what you disagree with about Missandei.  I have her in the "lives" column.

My mistake there. I will edit my post.

[MadMouse]

I guess I'll be the Debbie Downer.

 

Jon dies killing the NK over the Trident on Dragonback. A cross between the Dance over Harrenhal between Daemon and Aemond plus dying in the same area as Rhaegar with Dany's name on his lips.

Dany dies in childbirth similar to her own mother and Lyanna.

Jaime dies in wildfire stopping Cersei from torching KL but is actually remembered as a hero this time.

Beric will be the first person we see the NK actually fight and he'll meet his end. His stare down with the NK and belief on why he's been brought back hinted at this.

Qyburn killed by Jaime in saving KL.

The Hound and Mountain will both die in the Cleganebowl. 

Theon reclaims his identity and dies fighting Euron.

Jorah death has to be saving Dany, what would be horrifying would be if it was Viserion who did it.

Greyworm during whatever midseason ESB battle that happens. 

Bronn, Cersei is going to offer him an insane amount of gold or some huge title like Lord of the Reach to kill Dany. He's either killed by Pod using something Bronn taught him, Brienne or its Jon's last chance at grinding sword skills before the big boss battle. Jaime is another candidate here, it could be the moment where Dany realizes he's not her enemy.

Cersei, Jaime kills her but I think we're going to get some variation of the line "The things I do for love"

Mel, maybe Arya since they hinted at it but I see her doing one last sacrifice. Herself.

Euron, depends either Asha/Yara or Jon. I only mention Jon because he usually gets these midseason battles to level him up in the eyes of viewer. 

Arya...if they're still following a general outline of the characters fates from Martin then I think her death was foreshadowed. But his wife did say she'd divorce him if he did so who knows. But I do think her death leaves Sansa the least Stark like at the beginning of the series as the last surviving one very interesting.

Edited August 23, 2017 by MadMouse

[Eyes High]

16 hours ago, SeanC said:

Missandei - somewhat similar to Gilly, albeit she's a bit more of a participant; but she doesn't really have her own arc that a death could serve as a meaningful capstone to, so if she died it would be as fodder so that Dany could cry about it, and I'll put it this way:  the show's only black woman getting killed by zombies so that her white boss can cry about it would be fantastic advertising for D&D's upcoming Confederate series.

You're assuming that D&D would spare Missandei due to concern over the optics of killing off the show's only black woman so that her white boss can cry about it, which I think we can safely conclude is not true based on the fact that they even thought Confederate was a good idea in the first place.

 

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Yara - it seems like one of the two Greyjoy siblings has to survive, and possibly both will

I'd feel a lot better about Yara's prospects if she had spoken one word in 7x03. If Euron took her tongue, I'm guessing she's a goner.

 

13 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Not to the fans who still contend that Jon alone is "ice and fire." 

Yup.

 

12 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Very interesting list. About Sandor, I think it depends mostly on Arya's Season 8 story arc.(.....and Cleganebowl)

There's supposed to be a line in 7x07 that broadly hints at Cleganebowl, according to Frikidoctor. We'll see if that's what happens.

 

1 hour ago, MadMouse said:

Arya...if they're still following a general outline of the characters fates from Martin then I think her death was foreshadowed. 

Arya was one of the five characters who were supposed to survive the books in the original 1993 outline.

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, Eyes High said:

You're assuming that D&D would spare Missandei due to concern over the optics of killing off the show's only black woman so that her white boss can cry about it, which I think we can safely conclude is not true based on the fact that they even thought Confederate was a good idea in the first place.

I don't rate them as particularly woke on racial issues, but they and the network were pretty openly taken aback by the negative reaction to the series' announcement, so I expect it will be on their mind now.

Beyond the race issue, as I said, a non-combatant like Missandei is hard to write a meaningful death for in this sort of scenario.  She just strikes me as an unlikely candidate.

[Eyes High]

2 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I don't rate them as particularly woke on racial issues, but they and the network were pretty openly taken aback by the negative reaction to the series' announcement, so I expect it will be on their mind now.

Beyond the race issue, as I said, a non-combatant like Missandei is hard to write a meaningful death for in this sort of scenario.  She just strikes me as an unlikely candidate.

The Season 8 scripts were already in the bag when the Confederate controversy erupted, and I doubt D&D would even think to link Missandei's fate and Confederate in their minds. 

I think some non-combatants have to die for the war against the WWs to mean anything. As for why Missandei as opposed to Gilly or someone else would go, I think D&D can't be bothered to think up a suitable endgame for her, especially if Dany does wind up dying.

[loki567]

If Grey Worm and Missandei survive this week's finale then they're surviving the series, I have no doubt about that. Somebody in HBO's offices will link Confederate and Grey Worm/Missandei's deaths and would put the kibosh on it. And with six episodes left, I'm doubting that either of them would get some big dramatic death scene that is absolutely crucial for the show's storyline. It would probably be more of the Barristan, "And then they died," variety. 

[MadMouse]

6 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Arya was one of the five characters who were supposed to survive the books in the original 1993 outline.

She was also supposed to be in a love triangle with Jon and Tyrion too. That outline doesn't mean that much at this point.

[Genius]

Can someone please remind me - whatever happened to little Rickon Stark?  I remember he and Bran were separate at the Wall...right?  With that fierce lady wildling promising to project Rickon.  Did they get killed?  Or is Rickon still out there, waiting to be reunited at Winterfell too?

[BitterApple]

2 minutes ago, Genius said:

Can someone please remind me - whatever happened to little Rickon Stark?  I remember he and Bran were separate at the Wall...right?  With that fierce lady wildling promising to project Rickon.  Did they get killed?  Or is Rickon still out there, waiting to be reunited at Winterfell too?

Rickon got an arrow through the heart, courtesy of Ramsey Bolton. Osha was also killed by Ramsey.

Edited August 23, 2017 by BitterApple

[Wouter]

2 minutes ago, Genius said:

Can someone please remind me - whatever happened to little Rickon Stark?  I remember he and Bran were separate at the Wall...right?  With that fierce lady wildling promising to project Rickon.  Did they get killed?  Or is Rickon still out there, waiting to be reunited at Winterfell too?

Rickon was given to Ramsay by the Umbers, Osha died while trying to kill Ramsay and Rickon was later used as bait (for Jon) and shot at the beginning of the battle of the bastards.

[FemmyV]

On 8/21/2017 at 6:16 AM, Eyes High said:

As for Jon/Dany, I was far more interested by Tyrion raising the issue of "breaking the wheel" by instituting a system similar to the NW or the Kingsmoot. Now, the issue could be academic if Jon and Dany survive and have a kid, but it seems that Dany's dream of "breaking the wheel" is now being linked to democracy.  

You have to wonder, where in Westeros can we find a group of people who have been living, relatively peaceably with each other, outside of any King's law and keeping their own council, who could influence future Westerosi culture towards a democracy, of sorts?

Oh, wait. There is such a group! They're called "Wildlings" and Jon Snow let them through the wall.

I can kind of, sort of, see some kind of crystal ball action where Wildlings (with encouragement and/or assistance from Snow and Dany) provide an example of local governing with more boards than Lords, and in exchange, they find the delights of private property and capitalism. Or some such.

Are Jon and Dany end game? I don't know, but they sure look pretty together. I can also see maybe Dany bites it, and Arya is tasked with helping Jon raise the little Dragon Baby. But if not, maybe it's not so difficult to imagine Jon and Dany, upon realizing what a threat little Dragon Baby could be if given too much power, both giving up any ambition to any throne and spending their days backpacking throughout Westeros.

The more time has gone on, the more I think Tyrion and Sansa would be a good match. He brings the prestige of Lannisterhood and Casterly Rock, King's Hand - and who knows? Maybe king? - that she wants. He has the maturity, and respect for plebes, to teach her how to not be such an imperious asshole when it comes to dealing with people who don't see things her way, and would probably treat her very well. She is young and can give him little Lannister babies to keep the family name alive.

[WindyNights]

On 8/22/2017 at 10:11 AM, SeanC said:

Going into the final season (and with spoilers for the Season 7 finale), my deluxe ratings of potential deaths among the remaining cast:

DEAD

1. Lord Dondarrion - though really, wouldn't it be hilarious if he survived?
2. Cersei
3. Jaime
4. Qyburn
5. Euron
6. Tormund
7. Jorah - a glorious death in Khaleesi's service is the only way to leave the Friendzone.
8. Melisandre
9. Varys - BBQ'd by Dany for disloyalty.
10. Gregor Clegane

NOT DEAD

1. Bran
2. Arya
3. Sansa
4. Dany - the recent anvils about an impending miracle baby confer probable immunity.
5. Tyrion - now that he's seemingly not going to get to ride that dragon like everybody long predicted he would, it seems like it'd be hard to kill him off in a narratively satisfying way.
6. Sam
7. Gilly - as a powerless civilian with no real narrative role beyond love interest/helpmeet, I have a hard time imagining a death for her that served any story purpose beyond gratuitous nastiness.
8. Missandei - somewhat similar to Gilly, albeit she's a bit more of a participant; but she doesn't really have her own arc that a death could serve as a meaningful capstone to, so if she died it would be as fodder so that Dany could cry about it, and I'll put it this way:  the show's only black woman getting killed by zombies so that her white boss can cry about it would be fantastic advertising for D&D's upcoming Confederate series.
9. Bronn - his character is basically a little joke about gradual upward advancement (which the series has waffled with a bit), I expect he'll end things having risen fairly high on his ruthless dedication to looking out for #1.

PROGNOSIS UNCERTAIN

1. Jon - the ur-outline prophesies his survival, so he's got that in his favour; I include him here solely because of the original five mains he seems the most likely to have had that status revoked, and in particular, between him and Dany, Dany has to live to birth the miracle baby (which can't possibly happen within the main narrative action).
2. Brienne - one of the show's most prominent brawlers, and her arc is by times about serving the Starks and her interactions with Jaime; one could imagine her meeting her end in either capacity.
3. Grey Worm - arguably protected by the same factor as Missandei, but as a low-level combatant character it's easier to imagine his being granted a fittingly heroic demise in battle.
4. Davos - he's not really a combatant, but I could vaguely imagine him dying as a sort of prominent mid-tier casualty.  His arc is basically about loyal service.
5. Sandor Clegane - basically depends on whether he's supposed to hook up with Sansa or not; if not, he probably gets a glorious heroic demise of the sort he would have cynically mocked.
6. Theon 
7. Yara - it seems like one of the two Greyjoy siblings has to survive, and possibly both will.
8. Gendry - seems unlikely, but if he's not going to hook up with Arya, I could see the whole "revival of House Baratheon" idea being a false lead and he's back to swing that hammer and fall in battle.

Do you remember what happened to Talisa? People thought that her being pregnant meant she was immune from being killed. 

Daenerys is toast anyway. Too many red flags. 

Jon is the big question mark but he won't be  on the Iron Throne 

[anamika]

Interview with GRRM:

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2017/08/22/fantasy-needs-magic

Quote

How independent are the showrunners from you? Simply put: could they save the life of a character you’ve decided to kill? Or could they kill someone who’s still alive in your books?

They are independent. They can do whatever they want. I don’t have any power… any contractual right to [stop them]. I consult with them. I talk to them on a regular basis. Of course, years ago, we had a series of very long meetings, where I told them some of the big twists and turns and huge events that were coming in the last few books. So they’ve been touching [on] some of these, and doing some of the reveals, but they have also been departing in various ways.

The biggest one is one that you just mentioned: probably right now, right as we talk, there are close to 20 characters who are dead on the show, who are still alive in the books. Some of them are very minor characters, but also there are major characters, like Rickon Stark, Barristan Selmy, Myrcella Baratheon. All of them — dead on the show, but alive in the books.

It's interesting that he calls Rickon Stark a major character. I think Rickon will make it to the end. And carry on the Stark line. That's the whole point of the character. When he comes back from Skagos, he will be like the kings of winter, who don't hesitate to chop off heads and hang entrails from trees.

[Brn2bwild]

49 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Do you remember what happened to Talisa? People thought that her being pregnant meant she was immune from being killed. 

Daenerys is toast anyway. Too many red flags. 

Jon is the big question mark but he won't be  on the Iron Throne 

Talisa wasn't one of the main protagonists.  There was no way she was going to survive the Red Wedding -- Robb's heir being out and about would have complicated things immensely (I reserve the right to change my mind once the next book(s) come out).

[SeanC]

7 hours ago, anamika said:

Interview with GRRM:

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2017/08/22/fantasy-needs-magic

It's interesting that he calls Rickon Stark a major character. I think Rickon will make it to the end. And carry on the Stark line. That's the whole point of the character. When he comes back from Skagos, he will be like the kings of winter, who don't hesitate to chop off heads and hang entrails from trees.

He calls Rickon a major character alongside Myrcella Baratheon, a character who is canonically doomed, and Barristan Selmy, who probably is.  That's not to say he's guaranteed to die by that grouping, but it's hardly indicative of endgame importance.  Who runs Winterfell at the end would be a huge part of that character's story, and doesn't strike me as the sort of detail the show would change.

[Bill1978]

I can't see the show killing a Stark if they aren't killed in the book.

[anamika]

7 minutes ago, SeanC said:

He calls Rickon a major character alongside Myrcella Baratheon, a character who is canonically doomed, and Barristan Selmy, who probably is.  That's not to say he's guaranteed to die by that grouping, but it's hardly indicative of endgame importance.  Who runs Winterfell at the end would be a huge part of that character's story, and doesn't strike me as the sort of detail the show would change.

Who says Myrcella Baratheon and Barristan Selmy are truly doomed?  Show Cersei is pregnant now. Maybe there will be a Lannister child from Tywin's side left alive at the end of it all. Maybe Myrcella does something of major plot significance before she dies.

As for Rickon, yeah, I do think he ends up alive in the books and he will carry on the Stark family name. As per predictions, if Sansa's imagined beauty and beast romance with the Hound is not going anywhere because that's not GRRM's intention and Arya is not going to get together with Gendry because that's not GRRM's intentions either then who is going to carry forward the Stark line?

It's clear at this point that the show does not care about these changes.  They are doing their own thing. I mean, they have changed the entire Northern storyline on  the show - it's an entirely different beast now. There is no way it's anywhere near where the book story is supposed to be going. I think Jon will make Rickon KITN and then warden of the North after Davos gets him home.

Maybe on the show, the ending is that Ned, Twyin and Robert's (If they don't do anything with Gendry) lineage is at an end and the Targs get to start a Targaryen restoration with Jon and Dany!

[nikma]

I just hope we won't have Dany and  Jon ruling together with their baby. I  just don't know how they could sell that ending as bittersweet. It just doesn't feel true to the spirit of the story.

[Bill1978]

3 minutes ago, anamika said:

As for Rickon, yeah, I do think he ends up alive in the books and he will carry on the Stark family name.

If Rickon lives in the books, that may be enough for me to read the series (assuming GRRM completes them of course.

[domina89]

On 8/22/2017 at 5:44 PM, LadyChaos said:

God I hope Cersei dies in the season finale! That would make me so happy.

I don't want her to die until she finds out who Jon truly is.  That would be the final gut punch that would make me very, very happy.  

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Bill1978 said:

If Rickon lives in the books, that may be enough for me to read the series (assuming GRRM completes them of course.

If GRRM is writing the same ending as the show, then for the Starks that could mean:

Rickon is dead and has no relevance to the story.

Arya feels like she has no connection to the home and family she has been trying to get to for 5 books and leaves to go on adventures.

Sansa ends up single and in charge of a fickle, cowardly North who won't hesitate to betray her and install someone else as Warden of the North.

Bran is an emotionless robot who feels nothing and will just be sitting there seeing the future and the past.

The direwolves are all dead or gone and have no relevance to the Starks anymore

The Stark line will end with them.

For the Baratheons, if Gendry is not getting together with Arya, I don't see much of a role for him in the books. He as mainly an Arya character.  Edric Storm  is the more important Baratheon who Davos knows, but he is not on the show. So if we expect strict adherence to show endgame, then the Baratheon line also ends in the books.

For the Lannisters, if Tyrion ends the show single and all of Jaime and Cersei's children are dead, then Tywin's line is gone. There is still Tywin's siblings and their children in the books who can carry on house Lannister. So things are not too dire there. But on the show, with Kevan and Lancel dead, the Lannisters are also done for.

In the Vale, I don't think Sweet Robin is going to last too long in the books. I don't think they are ever going to mention this character again or bother with him on the show. So we can assume House Arryn will last.

Yara/Asha Greyjoy will have to continue house Greyjoy on the show. That may happen in the books as well. We already have her trying at the Kingsmoot in the books.

For the Reach, we have Willas and Garlan. Dorne still has the Martells. These houses will have entirely different endgames in the books.

And finally if Jon and Dany marry and have a child - they will be the three heads of the dragon - the start of a new Targaryen dynasty with Drogon and Ghost (still missing because CGI is expensive)

So basically, it sucks for almost everyone but not for Jon and Dany! I mean, GRRM did sort of say that they are the point of the entire series and the song of ice and fire is about them after all.  Fandom reaction if this happens will be a sight to behold.

Edited August 24, 2017 by anamika

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

He calls Rickon a major character alongside Myrcella Baratheon, a character who is canonically doomed, and Barristan Selmy, who probably is.  That's not to say he's guaranteed to die by that grouping, but it's hardly indicative of endgame importance.  Who runs Winterfell at the end would be a huge part of that character's story, and doesn't strike me as the sort of detail the show would change.

Not to mention that if Myrcella is only a "major character" in the published books to date if the term "major" is stripped of all significance. If characters as relatively obscure in ASOIAF as Myrcella are "major," then no character is.

 

2 hours ago, anamika said:

As per predictions, if Sansa's imagined beauty and beast romance with the Hound is not going anywhere because that's not GRRM's intention and Arya is not going to get together with Gendry because that's not GRRM's intentions either then who is going to carry forward the Stark line?

Sansa and Arya could marry a lower-ranking lord and give the Stark name to their kids. I don't see Arya marrying, but Sansa still might, even if it's not the Hound she marries.

 

2 hours ago, nikma said:

I just hope we won't have Dany and  Jon ruling together with their baby. I  just don't know how they could sell that ending as bittersweet. It just doesn't feel true to the spirit of the story.

Not to sound like a broken record on this, but GRRM defined "bittersweet ending" with reference to the ending of LOTR, which ended with Aragorn and Arwen ruling together happily ever after.

 

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Dorne still has the Martells. These houses will have entirely different endgames in the books.

Will they? I thought there was substantial evidence in the books that Doran's scheming would end in failure and result in the ultimate destruction of his house. His plotting certainly has a pretty poor track record to date: Oberyn dead, Arianne's intended husband dead, Quentyn dead, Myrcella mutilated, etc.

 

12 hours ago, FemmyV said:

The more time has gone on, the more I think Tyrion and Sansa would be a good match. He brings the prestige of Lannisterhood and Casterly Rock, King's Hand - and who knows? Maybe king? - that she wants. He has the maturity, and respect for plebes, to teach her how to not be such an imperious asshole when it comes to dealing with people who don't see things her way, and would probably treat her very well. She is young and can give him little Lannister babies to keep the family name alive.

If Sansa is destined to end up as endgame Lady of Winterfell and (in the show universe anyway) feels the need to continuously reassure a bunch of faithless and extremely vindictive northern lords as to her loyalties, Tyrion's probably the worst possible choice from a political perspective. The northern lords are already inclined to be suspicious of Sansa's allegiances and have been happy to throw her past marriage to Tyrion in her face when they want to take her down a peg. How would it look if she willingly remarried him? Not to mention the northern lords would get all up in arms about how Sansa was insulting the memory of everyone who had died in the war and so on and so forth. I suppose if Sansa's destiny is not at Winterfell and she winds up going south and washing her hands of the North's bullshit, it won't matter much one way or the other, but if she intends to stay at Winterfell, Tyrion's pretty much a no-go as a marital choice. Also, for all that she seems to like and respect him in the show universe, that wouldn't necessarily translate into wanting to be his wife; she liked him well enough in KL and freely acknowledged that he had been kind to her but still showed absolutely no desire to be married to him.

Aside from the political side of things, I don't think Sansa is interested in the prestige of the Lannister name or in continuing the Lannister line: this is the same girl who in ASOS loved the idea of teaching her hypothetical future children to hate Lannisters.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

Who says Myrcella Baratheon and Barristan Selmy are truly doomed?  Show Cersei is pregnant now. Maybe there will be a Lannister child from Tywin's side left alive at the end of it all. Maybe Myrcella does something of major plot significance before she dies.

As for Rickon, yeah, I do think he ends up alive in the books and he will carry on the Stark family name. As per predictions, if Sansa's imagined beauty and beast romance with the Hound is not going anywhere because that's not GRRM's intention and Arya is not going to get together with Gendry because that's not GRRM's intentions either then who is going to carry forward the Stark line?

Myrcella is 100% doomed by Maggy the Frog's exceedingly literal prophecy.  Barristan doesn't have anything like that, he's just the sort of character who usually dies in stories like this.

Even if Sansa and Arya end the books/TV show single, they will be, what, 15/13 in the books at most, and some nebulous point in their late teens in the show.  Absent a flashforward that shows them not marrying I don't think there's any reason to think they mightn't do so later.  Particularly since Rickon is still a child in the books, so he wouldn't be married at the end of the regular narrative anyway.

[MrsR]

I think there is too much wondering about what people will think concerning allegiances  with houses and families and what not. "Oh the Northern Lords will never accept Tyrion" and what not...

 

The WW's and the wights will get through the wall and an apocalyptic event will wipe out soooo many people including Lords and Bannermen so that NONE of this political stuff will matter at all.  

 

There will be no Castle Black. There will be no House of Glover, (does anyone have an immediate, bigger bulls eye on them than Lord Glover?).  And other Northern Houses will fall. Winterfell might even fall.  The North will be ravaged, they are in the direct line of fire, or should I say, ice.

So many important people died in the War of the Roses that a new class of aristocracy was created. The Tudor Age was a time of great upward mobility. Who ever Henry VII didn't knock off, his son did.

This will be the end of the Seven Kingdoms and it will end with a reset and the past squabbles and politics and resentments will be irrelevant to the survivors. I don't think the Iron Throne will exist at the end. Many, many castles will be destroyed. Bear Island will survive though, it will be by passed.  Yes Sansa could stay with Tyrion because there will be precious few people left to object.

In the end it will be a new world being built up by the weary survivors.  A New Age.

[SimoneS]

4 hours ago, nikma said:

I just hope we won't have Dany and  Jon ruling together with their baby. I  just don't know how they could sell that ending as bittersweet. It just doesn't feel true to the spirit of the story.

Yet this is just about how all science fantasy stories end. Losing your family, friends, and companion along the journey is the bitter with the sweet in most sci fantasy novels. As pointed out before, at the end of LOTR Frodo has to leave middle-earth while the other characters live happy lives. The parallel there would be Bran who has lost his identity in becoming the Three Eyed Raven. 

 

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Sansa and Arya could marry a lower-ranking lord and give the Stark name to their kids. I don't see Arya marrying, but Sansa still might, even if it's not the Hound she marries.

If she marries, I could see Sansa marrying a legitimized Gendry. 

Edited August 24, 2017 by SimoneS

[DarkRaichu]

Dany will either be dead or retire to pursue her true passion of breeding dragons ;)  Either way she is not going to be on Iron Throne at the end.  Jon will be on it with Tyrion as HoK and Sam as Maester.  Sansa is Queen of the North.  Arya becomes 1 woman  Night Watch (with Summer) and hunts whatever thread is left north of the wall.  Bran and NK's faith are connected, when 1 dies both die.

Since Dany is not queen, Missandei left her service and went with Ser Davos and Gendry to show them her homeland.  Grey Worm, Jorah, Varys, Jaime, Brienne, Tormund, the Hound, Mountain, Qyburn, the remaining NW all die in the fight vs WW.  

Ghost dies off screen due to budget :P

The 3 dragons fight each other in epic battle and all die as the result,  This happens after Rhaegon lays an egg for Dany to take care.

The Iron Bank is cultivating a new leader in Dorne just in case Jon becomes a tyrant.

Cersei survives season 7 and goes north to pledge her loyalty to NK to become Night Queen, sacrificing her baby to seal the deal.  Cersei may survive the series as NQ and Arya goes north to hunt her to finish her list.

 

ETA: I may need to just start my own end game fanfic :D :D :D

Edited August 24, 2017 by DarkRaichu

[screamin]

2 hours ago, MrsR said:

I think there is too much wondering about what people will think concerning allegiances  with houses and families and what not. "Oh the Northern Lords will never accept Tyrion" and what not...

 

The WW's and the wights will get through the wall and an apocalyptic event will wipe out soooo many people including Lords and Bannermen so that NONE of this political stuff will matter at all.  

 

There will be no Castle Black. There will be no House of Glover, (does anyone have an immediate, bigger bulls eye on them than Lord Glover?).  And other Northern Houses will fall. Winterfell might even fall.  The North will be ravaged, they are in the direct line of fire, or should I say, ice.

So many important people died in the War of the Roses that a new class of aristocracy was created. The Tudor Age was a time of great upward mobility. Who ever Henry VII didn't knock off, his son did.

This will be the end of the Seven Kingdoms and it will end with a reset and the past squabbles and politics and resentments will be irrelevant to the survivors. I don't think the Iron Throne will exist at the end. Many, many castles will be destroyed. Bear Island will survive though, it will be by passed.  Yes Sansa could stay with Tyrion because there will be precious few people left to object.

In the end it will be a new world being built up by the weary survivors.  A New Age.

Tyrion is still an admitted patricide, and kinslayers are cursed. People might forget the old grudges between families, but killing your dad is a pretty big taboo to violate (no matter how much he had it coming.)

Edited August 24, 2017 by screamin

[Eyes High]

In the show universe, the only people who care--or even remember--that Tyrion killed Tywin are Tyrion himself, Jaime and Cersei. The kinslaying curse doesn't exist in the show universe, either. In the show universe, the Northern lords' only objection to Tyrion is that he's a Lannister, although I suppose that if Tyrion and Jaime lend valuable assistance to Team The Living, that may mollify the Northern lords somewhat.

[paigow]

21 hours ago, Wouter said:

Rickon was given to Ramsay by the Umbers, Osha died while trying to kill Ramsay and Rickon was later used as bait (for Jon) and shot at the beginning of the battle of the bastards.

Rickon is dead only because he ran in a STRAIGHT LINE!!! Silly boy.....

[Taget]

I'm viewing the end of the show through the prism that HBO wants multiple spinoffs.  That means the ending may be the inverse of what you would expect from this type of show.  Where most of the major characters survive but the supporting characters are killed off in heart tugging moments.  Major characters are played by big name actors who want big league money and are probably itching for other roles or in the case of the stark kids starting out their movie careers.

So that starts my list of the first safe character.  Gendry.  Popular character from the past brought in unexpectedly and given immediately an almost bizarrely prominent role.  That spells potential spinoff to me.

Second on my list is Missandei.  Popular character played by a fetching actress (a nude scene or two hasn't hurt).   Have her return to Naath and you can have a new story that resets everything and does not require bringing over anyone else unless you really want to.

Third is Tormund.  Fits the profile for a good spinoff base.  Popular character played by an actor who is not so big that he would demand a huge base salary to continue.

Fourth is Jorah.  Same formula.  Character popular enough to support their own series with an actor who won't cost an arm and a leg.

Other possibilities to cram into a new show include Yara a character not as popular as the four above but with interesting spinoff story potential, Sandor Clegane, Meera Reed, Samwell Tarley, and even Dondarrion.  Though I do happen to believe he will die.  Might as well add little Lyanna Mormont.  I think they would age her up to a teenager in any potential spinoff.

I believe Tyrion will be kept alive in the off chance the actor who plays him would be willing to be in a spinoff.

But on to my predicted end game.  I see it as a bloodbath.  One of Jon and Dany (probably Dany) is killed fighting the walkers up north and Cersei takes advantage of the mayhem to to kill most of her rivals.  Something happens to push Arya south.  Whether it is her continued feud with Sansa or something else.  A Sansa death helps push characters still stuck in Winterfell out.  The ultimate winner will be Cersei who will then start purging her own supporters including Jaime.  The big reveal at the end being Cersei did not actually win.  But rather Arya had killed her soon after her victory and this new "Cersei" was just seeking revenge against those who wronged House Stark.  Including Littlefingers.

The winner of the Iron Throne will be Robin Arryn who will be hailed as the liberator of Westeros who fought off the White Walkers.

[Katsullivan]

Aren't the spin-offs set in the past? Probably during a time when the dragons were dead, to save CGI budget costs?

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Taget said:

I'm viewing the end of the show through the prism that HBO wants multiple spinoffs.  That means the ending may be the inverse of what you would expect from this type of show.  Where most of the major characters survive but the supporting characters are killed off in heart tugging moments.  Major characters are played by big name actors who want big league money and are probably itching for other roles or in the case of the stark kids starting out their movie careers.

HBO's programming president has already confirmed that none of the spinoff ideas under development involve existing characters.

[FemmyV]

8 hours ago, MrsR said:

In the end it will be a new world being built up by the weary survivors.  A New Age.

I have to agree. It just seems that, if there is not a major shift in Westerosi organization, why have we been following this whole saga?

[bluestocking]

I just started watching GOT a month ago—late I know—but as we head into the final season, it’s clear to me that GRRM is using literary alchemy to tell his story.  Given that, it makes total sense that, as he told one of the directors early on that “it really is all about Dany and Jon….[W]ithin this sprawling scale the whole story was coming down to this partnership.”

In medieval Europe, alchemy was the process of creating into the Philosopher’s Stone, which could transmute basic metals into gold and cure all disease.  In the 1500s and 1600s many picture books were published illustrating the various aspects of the alchemical process. At that time and ever since writers have drawn on the ideas and images of alchemy to structure and embellish their works, from Shakespeare, Milton, and Blake to Tolkien and J.K. Rowling.

Here’s a simple diagram outlining the alchemical process, from Michael Maier’s Atalanta fugiens, 1618.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Maier+Atalanta+fugiens+Fac&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi1iPD1oPHVAhWb8oMKHUe_C1oQ_AUICygC&biw=1097&bih=518#imgrc=mIk4n5vBffZHIM:

On the left is the alchemist.  The Latin above explains how you put the man and woman in a circle, put a square around that, then a triangle, then everything within another circle.

Alchemy stories reflect these basic components. 

--The alchemist.  We are used to seeing a benevolent wizard—Gandolf, Dumbledore, or even a literal alchemist, like Nicholas Flamel, in Michael Scott’s series The Secrets of the Immortal Nicholas Flamel.  GRRM seems to have given us a decidedly problematic alchemist in Melisandre.  Still, she is the one who brings the hero and heroine together, by telling Dany that Jon Snow has a role to play and she should summon him. 

--The hero and his alchemical partner are joined together in a Chemical Wedding (the Latin term is coniunctio), surrounded by some kind of circular imagery.  The Male Principle of the Work is fire and air, sulphur, sun, hot and dry; the Female Principle is earth and water, mercury/argentvive, cool and moist.  GRRM has reversed these for Jon Snow and Dany which he can do.  Authors play with these rules all the time.  The key thing is that the man and woman be opposites; alchemy is all about the joining and reconciliation of opposites. 

--The four elements—fire, air, earth, water--are represented in the story both by the partners themselves and by four external forces. The four elements correspond, for example, to the four Houses of Hogwarts, the four groups—Hobbits, Men, Elves, Dwarves—in LOTR, and the four Houses in GOT (Lannister, Stark, Targaryen, Baratheon).   It could be a coincidence that, in the title card of the opening credits, the sigils of the four houses appear on quadrants of a circle, but I doubt it.

--The triangle, which consisted of spirit, soul, and body in physical alchemy, is usually represented in stories as the hero and his partner as heart and mind and a companion as body.  (Frodo, Samwise, Gollum;  Harry, Hermione, Ron).   So far it seems that GRRM has marked BOTH Jon and Dany as heart—she even ate one—and they both show the empathy, love, and rashness that you would expect to see in the hero.

The outer circle represents the culmination of the Great Work, the Philosopher’s Stone.  Or, to use Tolkien’s term, from his essay on “fairy-stories,” his term for fantasy novels, the “Eucatastrophe,” the Joyous Turn when warring parties are reconciled, and peace and harmony reign. 

Some thoughts on Jon and Dany’s Chemical Wedding next.

[MrsR]

Or

 

The Faith of Seven is used to defeat the Night King.

Father Davos (or maybe Jaime)

Mother Dany

Warrior Jon

Maiden Brienne

Crone Melisandre (Why bother to show us her real age)

Stranger Bran or Arya

[oliverwendell]

I think Jon is doomed. I agree with the idea floating around on the interwebs that he is the Lightbringer of the prophecy, the "flaming sword" forged by Rhaegar (who was the Prince Who Was Promised/Azor Ahai), to defeat the long night. He was brought back by R'Hillor (hence the "flaming" part) to do this one thing, and I think he will die doing it. I honestly see no other future for him. Danaerys will sit on the Iron Throne, possibly pregnant with his child, hopefully influenced by him to be a more moderate, even proto-democratic, ruler, and Sansa will be the Lady of Winterfell. His death is the bitter part of GRRM's ending. (IMO his "final five" list of survivors means nothing. It just means these characters survive until the last book. It doesn't mean they're still standing at the end of that book.) 

So I go with:

Dead
1. Jon
2. Jorah
3. Cersei
4. Jaime
5. Littlefinger
6. Beric
7. The Hound
8. Euron
9. Ghost
10. Rhaegal
11. Melisandre
12. Varys

Living
1. Dany
2. Bran
3. Sansa
4. Arya
5. Tyrion
6. Tormund
7. Brienne
8. Sam
9. Gilly
10. Gendry
11. Missandei
12. Yara
13. Drogon
14. Edd

[screamin]

I tend to think that the Iron Throne will stand empty and abandoned at the end, like Dany saw it in her vision. The Children of the Forest foretell their own eventual extinction, and that of other magical creatures. I'm guessing that the Night King and his opposing magical forces (including whatever's behind the Fire God manifestations and the dragons) are bound for one last spectacular flare-up of opposition and afterwards magic dies out of the world forever. And without magic and flying dragons as uniters and enforcers, a continent-wide feudal-level kingdom just isn't practical in the long run. The prophecy is MUCH older than the Iron Throne, and has no concern with whether it survives or not. And part of the theme of the Game of Thrones story is how ineffably stupid and shortsighted the whole power struggle of people over who gets the throne is, brutally grinding out people's lives while looking ridiculously trivial in the face of the world's life-or-death struggle. To me the most appropriate end of the story is that the Iron Throne is revealed as what is really is - a toy as ultimately useless as a broken five-cent mousetrap, utterly unworthy of all the blood spilled for it, and finally recognized and abandoned as such.

[Couver]

On 8/22/2017 at 1:11 PM, SeanC said:

Going into the final season (and with spoilers for the Season 7 finale), my deluxe ratings of potential deaths among the remaining cast:

DEAD

1. Lord Dondarrion - though really, wouldn't it be hilarious if he survived?
2. Cersei
3. Jaime
4. Qyburn
5. Euron
6. Tormund
7. Jorah - a glorious death in Khaleesi's service is the only way to leave the Friendzone.
8. Melisandre
9. Varys - BBQ'd by Dany for disloyalty.
10. Gregor Clegane

NOT DEAD

1. Bran
2. Arya
3. Sansa
4. Dany - the recent anvils about an impending miracle baby confer probable immunity.
5. Tyrion - now that he's seemingly not going to get to ride that dragon like everybody long predicted he would, it seems like it'd be hard to kill him off in a narratively satisfying way.
6. Sam
7. Gilly - as a powerless civilian with no real narrative role beyond love interest/helpmeet, I have a hard time imagining a death for her that served any story purpose beyond gratuitous nastiness.
8. Missandei - somewhat similar to Gilly, albeit she's a bit more of a participant; but she doesn't really have her own arc that a death could serve as a meaningful capstone to, so if she died it would be as fodder so that Dany could cry about it, and I'll put it this way:  the show's only black woman getting killed by zombies so that her white boss can cry about it would be fantastic advertising for D&D's upcoming Confederate series.
9. Bronn - his character is basically a little joke about gradual upward advancement (which the series has waffled with a bit), I expect he'll end things having risen fairly high on his ruthless dedication to looking out for #1.

PROGNOSIS UNCERTAIN

1. Jon - the ur-outline prophesies his survival, so he's got that in his favour; I include him here solely because of the original five mains he seems the most likely to have had that status revoked, and in particular, between him and Dany, Dany has to live to birth the miracle baby (which can't possibly happen within the main narrative action).
2. Brienne - one of the show's most prominent brawlers, and her arc is by times about serving the Starks and her interactions with Jaime; one could imagine her meeting her end in either capacity.
3. Grey Worm - arguably protected by the same factor as Missandei, but as a low-level combatant character it's easier to imagine his being granted a fittingly heroic demise in battle.
4. Davos - he's not really a combatant, but I could vaguely imagine him dying as a sort of prominent mid-tier casualty.  His arc is basically about loyal service.
5. Sandor Clegane - basically depends on whether he's supposed to hook up with Sansa or not; if not, he probably gets a glorious heroic demise of the sort he would have cynically mocked.
6. Theon 
7. Yara - it seems like one of the two Greyjoy siblings has to survive, and possibly both will.
8. Gendry - seems unlikely, but if he's not going to hook up with Arya, I could see the whole "revival of House Baratheon" idea being a false lead and he's back to swing that hammer and fall in battle.

I just hope Ghost, Nymeria, Rhaegal, and Drogon end up in the Not Dead list. That's all I'm wishing for at this point. 

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

The prophecy is MUCH older than the Iron Throne, and has no concern with whether it survives or not. And part of the theme of the Game of Thrones story is how ineffably stupid and shortsighted the whole power struggle of people over who gets the throne is, brutally grinding out people's lives while looking ridiculously trivial in the face of the world's life-or-death struggle. To me the most appropriate end of the story is that the Iron Throne is revealed as what is really is - a toy as ultimately useless as a broken five-cent mousetrap, utterly unworthy of all the blood spilled for it, and finally recognized and abandoned as such.

The point isn't about the Iron Throne specifically, it's about the general trivial ambitions of politicians in the Seven Kingdoms.  Replacing one throne with seven or eight isn't any sort of inherent improvement.  All the same factors apply to each throne individually.

[MarySNJ]

On 8/24/2017 at 0:41 PM, SimoneS said:

Yet this is just about how all science fantasy stories end. Losing your family, friends, and companion along the journey is the bitter with the sweet in most sci fantasy novels. As pointed out before, at the end of LOTR Frodo has to leave middle-earth while the other characters live happy lives. The parallel there would be Bran who has lost his identity in becoming the Three Eyed Raven. 

 

If she marries, I could see Sansa marrying a legitimized Gendry. 

I think Arya's likely to be more of a free spirit than settled down with a family. Is that bitter or sweet? I don't know.

Sansa and (legitimized) Gendry? I love this! It's like Robert's actual son married to Sansa, as opposed to the bastard Joffrey who was passed off as his son by Cersei. I see Gendry Baratheon, Lord of Storms End. 

[herbz]

I think Jon's probably doomed to make the heroic sacrifice. Sansa's the biggest character I feel confident in predicting will make it. Jaime's almost certainly a goner too, but he's got to outlive Cersei even by 20 minutes because if his whole book arc is about an identity crisis and trying to disentangle himself from this toxic relationship then having Cersei be correct in her 'we will die together as we were born together' mantra is nonsense.  Theon will probably get the redemptive death.  The Iron Throne will survive (well, maybe the chair will be symbolically melted down but the position will remain intact) because not one of the seven kingdoms will be in a fit state to be self sufficient after winter is done with it (the North and the Riverlands least of all). I could see a sort of proto-parliament being put in place in the form of a permanent Great Council with reps from each region. 

[GraceK]

I would love to see Arya be the one to kill Cersei.

[herbz]

I don't know if I'd find Arya being the one to end Cersei all that dramatically satisfying? I know she's last on the list, but Arya's arc never really entwined with Cersei's all that much, not in the way that Sansa's or Tyrion's or Jaime's do. I suppose I want Cersei to get a true comeuppance. Arya wearing Jaime's face could be cool, but then to keep the element of surprise we'd probably not witness Jaime's death and he feels like too big a character for that not to happen onscreen. 

[GraceK]

5 minutes ago, herbz said:

I don't know if I'd find Arya being the one to end Cersei all that dramatically satisfying? I know she's last on the list, but Arya's arc never really entwined with Cersei's all that much, not in the way that Sansa's or Tyrion's or Jaime's do. I suppose I want Cersei to get a true comeuppance. Arya wearing Jaime's face could be cool, but then to keep the element of surprise we'd probably not witness Jaime's death and he feels like too big a character for that not to happen onscreen. 

Good point. I just want someone she has wronged to kill her lol

[herbz]

3 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Good point. I just want someone she has wronged to kill her lol

Hahaha in that case it could be literally anyone still kicking :D 

[GraceK]

Honestly I know it's unrealistic but I just really want Jon and Dany to survive. They are both literally my favorite characters and  I feel I have invested so much emotionally in their trials and tribulations these past 7 years. It just would be a slap in the face for me....the only way I would accept Danys death if it is some sort of sacrifice for the greater good , on her terms. To have her murdered would just be horrible. Same with Jon, I look forward to a final battle between him and the night King, anything less wouldnt feel earned to me.  

[screamin]

6 hours ago, SeanC said:

The point isn't about the Iron Throne specifically, it's about the general trivial ambitions of politicians in the Seven Kingdoms.  Replacing one throne with seven or eight isn't any sort of inherent improvement.  All the same factors apply to each throne individually.

True, but it's the Iron Throne that's been the prize everyone's been fighting for all along, and honestly seven small kingdoms just seem less unwieldy than one kingdom held together at resentful cross-purposes by conquest over distances too huge to bridge easily.

Edited August 26, 2017 by screamin

[loki567]

At this point, I find heroic sacrifices as cliche as everybody lives endings. I'm hoping that Jon and Dany survive, specially because their deaths would make Jon's resurrection and Dany's time in Meereen rather pointless.