Endgame Discussion and Speculation

[Oscirus]

28 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

All of Sansa's dreams have always centered around her memories of Winterfell and being a Lady. She has always wanted to a queen or a lady of a great keep, and her skills are ALL what a lady in charge is expected to do.  She has no fighting skills nor any wanderlust. She is currently running Winterfell and doing a great job of it. To make Arya lady of Winterfell, Sansa has to die. It should take more than just Sansa being dead to make Arya happy.

The fighting skills is the problem. She stands out in that she's the only Northern character of note that doesn't have them. She doesn't have northern sensibilities.  I still see her going down south and doing something of importance down there and Arya getting  winterfell due to this.

[Hecate7]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

The fighting skills is the problem. She stands out in that she's the only Northern character of note that doesn't have them. She doesn't have northern sensibilities.  I still see her going down south and doing something of importance down there and Arya getting  winterfell due to this.

She doesn't need fighting skills. She has Brienne, and if Arya weren't nuts, she'd have Arya too. I don't see Sansa marrying a Southerner again, unless she decides to remarry Tyrion, which I don't think is really going to happen.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Hecate7

[Wouter]

21 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The quote from the Time interview:

Interesting, thanks for posting. He does seem to be quite clear here; if GRRM is not being a major hypocrite here, there should be consequences for Jon's state post-stabbing (in the books, and thus eventually in the show if the endgame is the same, as D&D have promised it would be for the main characters).

OTOH, the comment about 6 months being such a long wait is quite astounding, in a bad way.

I do think Jon will play a major, major role in the defeat of the Others/White Walkers. What the endgame between him and Dany is, is hard to predict. Both are messianic figures, but will (either or both) be Aragorn (sweet ending; gets to be King and gets the girl) or rather Frodo (bitter ending; saves the world, even more so than Aragorn, and gets to kinda/sorta die, in any case will never see his land and friends again)?

21 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Depends how long GRRM wants Jon in Ghost. If GRRM wants a drastic personality lift then he'll leave him there longer. Bringing back Jon too quickly also brings problems. Like why does Melisandre convince Stannis to burn Shireen when she just resurrected Jon Snow? 

Rather than aging, he'd probably slowly rot. Jon's skeleton sitting the Iron Throne would be hilarious. Coldhands might only look so bad because he's been rotting this whole time. 

But yeah, it's very likely Jon wouldn't die from a natural causes anymore as a lich. I mean Jon as lich king of Westeros is possible but not likely.

GRRM could wait a long time before resurrection, but I hope not. If the body is left in the Ice cells, it wouldn't rot so he would have some time. On the other hand, would Melisandre and/or the Wildlings want to waste time? It's possible that in the books, Shireen may be burned exactly to raise Jon Snow, and D&D didn't want to associate Jon with Shireen's death. It would be more like Drogo rather than Dondarrion, giving a possible out (Drogo's body was still human - but he didn't die, while Jon can hardly survive those stabbing wounds without magical intervention, one way or another).

Children for Jon and Dany are in doubt IMO, because one may be supposed to be a wight a la Dondarrion in the books (and I suppose wights cannot make children) and the other may or may not be barren. If we nevertheless get a miracle baby (at least from Dany's POV) in the show, then I think Jon+Dany is the endgame (and GRRM's comments in the Time interview may seem silly).

What the rest of the characters end up with will depend heavily on what happens to Jon and/or Dany, so this too is quite hard to predict.

Another point: in the books, Melisandre is very old and doesn't need to eat. This is a point in favour of Jon living a long, long time. However, if he ends up in a comparable way than endgame king would seem unlikely, especially with the theme that magic is dying. Having a 100's-year long reign by Jon seems unlikely.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Wouter

[WindyNights]

9 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I doubt any of that is happening with GoT. While GoT is extreme in some ways, it is a typical sci fantasy novel which generally have happy endings with good triumphing over evil and heroes rewarded for the hardships that they endured. Since D&D are giving the main characters the endings that Martin told them, I anticipate happy endings for most of the characters including Jon, Dany, and Tyrion. There are more than enough supporting characters (from Martin's perspective) to be red shirts if necessary and to give happy endings that will not occur in future books (if ever written).

I would suggest reading GRRM's short stories. They're very bitter. When he says bitter-sweet, he has a different definition of that then most of us. 

GRRM has cited the LOTR ending as his inspiration but read what he says about it. He says the common people are happy but the main character essentially dies because he's too psychologically scarred and can never be the same. "The Shire has been saved but not for me."

 

GRRM said he killed Robb Stark because he figured that the expectation was for Ned's son to achieve revenge for his father. I don't think GRRM is looking to recreate Aragorn except as satire (Aegon).

But I do think POV endings are going to vary.

I think there'll be a happy ending for Sansa. And tragic endings for Daenerys(so many red flags up for her) and Jon.

 

Bran, Arya and Tyrion remains to be seen.

9 hours ago, domina89 said:

See I've never understood the idea for showrunners to do this to fans at the end of a successful series.  You reward their devotion with what- pain and suffering?  I don't expect unicorns and rainbows, but to build up something and then twist the knife at the very end, thus ruining the entire series for some people, has never made sense to me.  Essentially you are killing potential sales in the future also if the show ends in a way that gets terrible publicity.  I know everyone won't be happy with the ending, but the cheap tricks and "gotcha" moments are not worthy of a series like this or a fan base like this.

Tragedy works like that. Lots of people were turned off by the Red Wedding and stopped reading after that.

GRRM mentioned a fan letter he once got chastising him for the RW saying she reads books to escape not for more anxiety.

 

12 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The show is also positioning Jon to have BFFs, or at the very least people who respect him and take him seriously, in almost every corner of Westeros: his surviving Stark siblings (North), Tormund and the Free Folk (North), Sam (the Reach), Tyrion (KL, I guess), Gendry (Storm's End, eventually, maybe?), etc. etc. Even Theon if he makes it out of the series alive will likely spend the rest of his life trying to atone for what he did to Robb, so Jon could likely count on his support as well. It seems perfectly set up for Jon's endgame ascendance to the Iron Throne....were it not for the small wrinkle of him being technically dead and all.

I don't see any way that a resurrected Jon takes the Iron Throne and has a long and prosperous reign beyond ASOIAF without making a hypocrite out of GRRM, unless of course Jon doesn't actually die at the end of ADWD and just goes into a deep coma from which he's later revived.

On the other hand, if Jon and Dany, two of the most prominent characters, fall deeply in love in the books--as they seem to be doing in the show--and one of them dies, in what universe is that "bittersweet"? Letting these two characters, who frankly had pretty terrible formative sexual/romantic experiences, enter into a consensual, loving relationship and have a little bit of happiness before swiftly wrenching it away? That's not bittersweet, that's just cruel. @SeanC is right in that a "bittersweet" ending doesn't mean that everyone gets a perfectly bittersweet ending, and that some characters will make out better than others, but putting the two lead characters in a doomed romance would tip the balance of any ASOIAF ending to "bitter," for me anyway. 

Jon is dead. WOIAF confirmed his death at Castle Black. 

I think you're putting too much investment in those 2 characters. The bitterness or sweetness of the ending isn't dependent on those 2 only influenced by them.

When GRRM says bitter-sweet, he's not talking about Jon or Daenerys. He's talking about the whole story. 

[anamika]

8 hours ago, Oscirus said:

The fighting skills is the problem. She stands out in that she's the only Northern character of note that doesn't have them. She doesn't have northern sensibilities.  I still see her going down south and doing something of importance down there and Arya getting  winterfell due to this.

Northern sensibilities? What is that? On the show, the Northerners are fickle, cowardly and useless. They are worse than the southerners. At least when Randyll Tarly allied with Cersei, he stuck with it till his death. If that was Lord Glover, he would have immediately bend the knee and proclaimed Dany queen. 

I used to want the Starks to stay in the North and Winterfell before. I still do in the books - where the Northerners are a loyal bad-ass group of hardy bastards. But on the show, the North is more suited to Cersei's kind of ruling and Sansa is supposedly good in that, seeing as how she admires Cersei's way of getting things done.

I don't see any connection anymore for Jon, Arya and Bran to the North on the show. In the books, Robb's will legitimizes Jon as a Stark - this makes him Lord of Winterfell and KITN. Why would Jon even stick around in Winterfell on the show?  Winterfell is not even his - Sansa is occupying the Lord's chamber - where is Jon? In his old bedroom for bastards?  He can't make decisions without Sansa undermining him in front of everyone because she thinks she knows better.  Arya does not seem to be much of a fan of Sansa and Bran is off doing his own thing, emotionally cut off from everything. 

I used to think Arya would stay in WF at the end. But the way she is being written, if Jon is not there and Sansa is in charge, I don't see that happening anymore. Now that Gendry has been re-introduced,  I can see her going off with him to explore the Stormlands after Dany legitimizes him and makes him Lord Paramount.  Poor Bran would be the new 3ER from either the WF wierwoods or beyond the wall. And Jon would either co-rule with Dany, die, or be the 1000th LC of the new NW.

Yara (With Theon's help) gets the Iron Islands.  Dany would have to rebuild what is left of the destroyed Westeros. Sansa would be single and wardeness of the North and play the game to her heart's content. Or maybe the Hound joins her. They could leave the Arya-Gendry and Sansa-Hound relationships open ended on the show. Not sure about Brienne - maybe she dies as well.  Jaime dies - he's irredeemable for me at this point. Tyrion is warden of the east. 

 So some folks die, some are alive, but everyone is changed and not for the better, not everyone gets what they wanted and even if they do get what they want,  they are not entirely happy - there's your bittersweet ending.

Edited August 17, 2017 by anamika

[WindyNights]

9 hours ago, Oscirus said:

The fighting skills is the problem. She stands out in that she's the only Northern character of note that doesn't have them. She doesn't have northern sensibilities.  I still see her going down south and doing something of importance down there and Arya getting  winterfell due to this.

Lyanna Mormont can't fight either as far as we're aware. 

Arya's not getting Winterfell. She's proving what kind of ruler she'd  be when she suggested cutting off Glover's head for even criticizing Jon. A tyrant.

Arya's arc has never been about politics or ruling or diplomacy. It's been about getting back at her enemies and traveling around. 

She won't end up as Lady of Winterfell.

 

The only way Arya ends up with Winterfell is if Sansa becomes Queen of Westeros.

[Oscirus]

10 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

She doesn't need fighting skills. She has Brienne, and if Arya weren't nuts, she'd have Arya too. I don't see Sansa marrying a Southerner again, unless she decides to remarry Tyrion, which I don't think is really going to happen.

You're right, she doesn't need them and truth be told, she'd probably be a kick ass ruler of WInterfell, however, I don't imagine that Sansa spent so much time learning the game from so many great minds just to have her wind back up at Winterfell.  It feels like this would be a waste of her storyline if this is where she winds up since none of the skills that she picked up are currently helping her out at winterfell.

3 hours ago, anamika said:

Northern sensibilities? What is that? On the show, the Northerners are fickle, cowardly and useless. They are worse than the southerners. At least when Randyll Tarly allied with Cersei, he stuck with it till his death. If that was Lord Glover, he would have immediately bend the knee and proclaimed Dany queen. 

Admittedly the North sucks , but the North is gruff. It needs a leader who's more assertive, I'd say that Sansa's a diplomat that can competently run the North, but who ultimately can't command the respect of a Jon or Arya or even a Brienne because she's not a fighter and never will be one.

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Lyanna Mormont can't fight either as far as we're aware. 

True but Lyanna's training, Sansa ain't.

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

The only way Arya ends up with Winterfell is if Sansa becomes Queen of Westeros.

Which has been my prediction all along so it works for me.

[Eyes High]

8 hours ago, anamika said:

I used to think Arya would stay in WF at the end. But the way she is being written, if Jon is not there and Sansa is in charge, I don't see that happening anymore. Now that Gendry has been re-introduced,  I can see her going off with him to explore the Stormlands after Dany legitimizes him and makes him Lord Paramount.  Poor Bran would be the new 3ER from either the WF wierwoods or beyond the wall. And Jon would either co-rule with Dany, die, or be the 1000th LC of the new NW.

Yara (With Theon's help) gets the Iron Islands.  Dany would have to rebuild what is left of the destroyed Westeros. Sansa would be single and wardeness of the North and play the game to her heart's content. Or maybe the Hound joins her. They could leave the Arya-Gendry and Sansa-Hound relationships open ended on the show.

GRRM said that Arya and Gendry have separate futures. It's not impossible, now that Gendry is back, but it's unlikely. Even aside from what GRRM said about Arya/Gendry, I'm not sure that a Lord Paramount would do much "exploring" in the Stormlands. Ultimately, he'd have to settle down somewhere, and D&D have suggested that being the lady of a castle is not Arya's destiny.

I sometimes wonder if part of the reason D&D decided fairly early on to swap in Sansa for Jeyne Poole in the Winterfell storyline is that they knew from the start that Sansa was destined to end up single and they thought they needed to give her a compelling reason to choose that. And obviously it would be problematic for D&D to assume that the only possible reason a young woman with her pick of men would choose to remain unmarried is if she'd been repeatedly raped, but I wouldn't put it past them.

 

7 hours ago, WindyNights said:

The only way Arya ends up with Winterfell is if Sansa becomes Queen of Westeros.

Sansa's pretty much the only remaining viable candidate for queen of Westeros if Dany dies, assuming there even needs to be a queen (for example if Jon rules and brings up his child with Dany as his successor, or if this whole Westeros democracy idea takes off), so it's possible, providing that there's that kind of power vacuum at the end of GOT that needs to be filled, but that does leave the question of what will happen with Winterfell up in the air.

 

Quote

Arya's not getting Winterfell. She's proving what kind of ruler she'd  be when she suggested cutting off Glover's head for even criticizing Jon. A tyrant.

Like Jon was a tyrant for executing Janos Slynt for insubordination?

Edited August 17, 2017 by Eyes High

[LadyChaos]

GRRM has said the ending of GoT will be bittersweet.  Now that could just be the book and the series could have a happier-ish ending but I doubt it.  That tells me that there will not likely be a happy ever after.  IMO there may or may not be child between Dany and Jon, either way Jon or Dany will end up on the ruler but not both.  The way I see it, if they both live Dany will take the throne and they both agree that it would be best for Jon to either be King of the North or reestablish the Nights Watch.  If Dany dies, she will have told Tyrion that she named Jon her successor and Jon will end up on the throne.  I don't believe that Jon will die again.  

If they both live and there is a baby, I kind of think that they will not raise the child together.  I'm toying around with the notion that Dany will raise the child alone, keeping the babies paternity a secret.  One of Jon's biggest fear is having a bastard out in the world that grew being a second rate son.  So it would kind of be full circle if he wasn't able to claim his own son for fear of public outrage of knowing that Dany and Jon had an incestuous child. I mean, even though the Targaryen were known for incest, the rest of the seven kingdoms would not approve.   Either that, or Jon will beg everyone who knows to not tell anyone what his true parentage is in an affort to hide that he is also Targaryen. 

[screamin]

13 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Like Jon was a tyrant for executing Janos Slynt for insubordination?

Jon cut off Janos' head for criticizing him? I really have forgotten those earlier seasons.

[loki567]

Quote

GRRM could wait a long time before resurrection, but I hope not. If the body is left in the Ice cells, it wouldn't rot so he would have some time. On the other hand, would Melisandre and/or the Wildlings want to waste time? It's possible that in the books, Shireen may be burned exactly to raise Jon Snow, and D&D didn't want to associate Jon with Shireen's death.

That's always been my theory too as it would give a hell of a lot more weight to Jon's resurrection and Shireen's death than, "rub some oils on him to bring him back to life," and "sacrifice your heir to lift a winter storm." The whole thing is such a waste in GoT, story-wise. They really might have been better off with Jon simply stopping the mutineers in time or skipping it altogether. 

I think the biggest question left for me is what happens to Stannis? What's his role in freeing the North from the Boltons? Not out of the realm of possibility that he loses last minute in one of those GRRM sucker punches. Also possibility that he could survive until the last book and burn Shireen in a last ditch move against the Others. 

[MissLucas]

14 hours ago, screamin said:

Jon cut off Janos' head for criticizing him? I really have forgotten those earlier seasons.

Slynt was executed for disobeying a direct order from the new Lord Commander (that he was a scheming bastard and a nasty piece of work didn't help either). Jon had given him command over Greyguard and he refused to go:

Quote

I'm giving you command of Greyguard.

Greyguard is a ruin.

Yes, the fort is in a sorry state. Restore it as best you can. First Builder Yarwyck can spare 10 of his--

I was charged with the defense of King's Landing when you were soiling your swaddling clothes. Keep your ruin.

You mistake me, my lord. That was a command, not an offer. Pack your arms and armor, say your farewells, and ride for Greyguard.

I will not go meekly off to freeze and die. Give it to one of the fools who cast a stone for you. I will not have it. Did you hear me, boy? I will not have it!

Are you refusing to obey my order?

You can stick your order up your bastard ass.

Slynt had three chances to save his head.

Edited August 18, 2017 by MissLucas

[paigow]

Davos & Gilly become co-hosts of Reading Rainbow in Fleabottom.

Edited August 20, 2017 by paigow

[Wouter]

10 hours ago, loki567 said:

That's always been my theory too as it would give a hell of a lot more weight to Jon's resurrection and Shireen's death than, "rub some oils on him to bring him back to life," and "sacrifice your heir to lift a winter storm." The whole thing is such a waste in GoT, story-wise. They really might have been better off with Jon simply stopping the mutineers in time or skipping it altogether. 

I think the biggest question left for me is what happens to Stannis? What's his role in freeing the North from the Boltons? Not out of the realm of possibility that he loses last minute in one of those GRRM sucker punches. Also possibility that he could survive until the last book and burn Shireen in a last ditch move against the Others. 

Signs seem to point to Stannis winning at least the first round of fighting (the manderleys should turn on the Freys, on a battlefield that was chosen and prepared by Stannis). I guess he either wins and takes Winterfell (and gives up his sword as a ruse after winning at the lake but before taking the castle, leading to the pink letter) or he loses and dies but damages the Bolton troops so heavily that Jon can finish the job later.

Either way, the sacrifice of Shireen cannot happen in the way it did on the show. Melissandre could do it on her own, or Stannis has to return at some point.

[MadMouse]

Something I was thinking about if the next season if they delve into any politics, could Jon be Daemon to Dany's Rhaneyra? On the surface you have the aunt nephew relationship, which is a flip of the Uncle niece one of Daemon and Rhaenyra. A lot of the lords feared Daemon being protector of the realm, consort and having the Queen's ear. He was cutthroat, wroth and held a grudge. A wildcard that they couldn't control. Now Jon isn't like that at all but the complete opposite which could make him just as dangerous in some lords eyes. A Northern "savage", fierce warrior, has Ned Stark's honor. That would be someone who wouldn't put up with all the politic BS or who could be influenced easily. Doubt it will happen because of how many episodes are left but it could be an interesting twist to the story.

[FnkyChkn34]

On 8/16/2017 at 3:30 PM, Hecate7 said:

All of Sansa's dreams have always centered around her memories of Winterfell and being a Lady. She has always wanted to a queen or a lady of a great keep, and her skills are ALL what a lady in charge is expected to do.  She has no fighting skills nor any wanderlust. She is currently running Winterfell and doing a great job of it. To make Arya lady of Winterfell, Sansa has to die. It should take more than just Sansa being dead to make Arya happy.

Arya has never daydreamed about inventories or fabric or food. She has never had reveries about any of that. It's all travel and excitement with her. Sansa dreams of safety, Arya of adventure, even when you'd think she had more adventure than a person could stand.  Arya is not an administrator or a "running things" kind of person. She's more of a cop.

A rogue, delusional, vigilante justice kind of cop, maybe.

[Thinbalina]

On 8/16/2017 at 9:25 PM, WindyNights said:

I would suggest reading GRRM's short stories. They're very bitter. When he says bitter-sweet, he has a different definition of that then most of us. 

GRRM has cited the LOTR ending as his inspiration but read what he says about it. He says the common people are happy but the main character essentially dies because he's too psychologically scarred and can never be the same. "The Shire has been saved but not for me."

 

GRRM said he killed Robb Stark because he figured that the expectation was for Ned's son to achieve revenge for his father. I don't think GRRM is looking to recreate Aragorn except as satire (Aegon).

But I do think POV endings are going to vary.

I think there'll be a happy ending for Sansa. And tragic endings for Daenerys(so many red flags up for her) and Jon.

 

Bran, Arya and Tyrion remains to be seen.

Tragedy works like that. Lots of people were turned off by the Red Wedding and stopped reading after that.

GRRM mentioned a fan letter he once got chastising him for the RW saying she reads books to escape not for more anxiety.

 

Jon is dead. WOIAF confirmed his death at Castle Black. 

I think you're putting too much investment in those 2 characters. The bitterness or sweetness of the ending isn't dependent on those 2 only influenced by them.

When GRRM says bitter-sweet, he's not talking about Jon or Daenerys. He's talking about the whole story. 

Thank you! I feel like the books do not make it as Daenerys and Jon are destined to be together but on the show it is displayed that way which makes many feel the story is only about them when it isn't. The story is multifaceted and concerns 100's of characters..

It's been my truest frustration with watching the series..

I appreciate GRRM for always going against what I hope would happen..I hope the show writers stay true to this and not make it a Disney ending..

[kcbuckeye2]

5 minutes ago, doram said:

Slynt didn't know his head was on the line. In the books, we follow Jon's thoughts and we realise that there were alternative s to an execution. Of course, it was Jon's prerogative as Lord Commander to choose any punishment for any crime but I don't think you can say that Slynth was given fair warning of the consequences of his actions.

As someone who was "charged with the defense of King's Landing when you were soiling your swaddling clothes" he would have known the consequences of openly defying a direct command from the Lord Commander, or if he was in charge, defying a command from whoever gave his orders.  And since there is no "let him take the black" for people who have already been sent to The Wall, it was off with his head.

[domina89]

8 hours ago, doram said:

The consequence isn't always death, as Jon knew from his own time facing the other side of a judgment. 

There were alternative punishments. Jon weighs them and decides an execution is the most effective. Slynth begs for pardon at the chopping block but Jon still swings. 

Jon followed through with executing Slynt because he admitted he was afraid. I think Jon was considering another punishment right up until that moment. Jon knew that a man with fear was not a man they could count on at the wall. If you watch that scene you can see Jon's face harden the moment Slynt admits his fear. Jon tells Sam the wall is no place for cowards and he acted on that belief.

Edited August 19, 2017 by domina89

[DarkRaichu]

On 8/18/2017 at 6:29 AM, paigow said:

Davos & Gilly become co-hosts of Reading Rainbow in Fleabottom.

Does that mean Davos inherit Euron's warp technology and go to where no man has gone before???

[DarkRaichu]

21 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

A rogue, delusional, vigilante justice kind of cop, maybe.

I can see Arya becoming a 1 woman Night Watch.  Endlessly patrolling the north of the Wall tracking and killing any remaining / escaping White Walker

[paigow]

22 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

I can see Arya becoming a 1 woman Night Watch.  Endlessly patrolling the north of the Wall tracking and killing any remaining / escaping White Walker

Game Of Person Of Interest - Bran develops a Groot AI app and finds targets for Arya

[Colorful Mess]

Whomever has their hands on LF's Valyrian steel dagger is going to be the one that kills the Night King with it. There's been too many lingering shots, and it even showed up in a book at the Citadel. While there's no question Arya can handle a blade, there's something poetic about Sansa doing it - the most magical person in the series killed by the least magical one. Sansa also has a prophecy attached to her about killing a giant in a castle made of snow (Winterfell).

[Oscirus]

Arya's whole speech to Sansa screams lady of winterfell to me.  So I'm locking it in, Arya Stark queen of the north

[anamika]

On 17/8/2017 at 6:30 PM, Eyes High said:

GRRM said that Arya and Gendry have separate futures. It's not impossible, now that Gendry is back, but it's unlikely. Even aside from what GRRM said about Arya/Gendry, I'm not sure that a Lord Paramount would do much "exploring" in the Stormlands. Ultimately, he'd have to settle down somewhere, and D&D have suggested that being the lady of a castle is not Arya's destiny.

 Last I remember, GRRM mentioned that Arya and Gendry would meet again, but he was iffy about a relationship because of Arya's age - she is currently 11 and will be possibly 12 when the books end. Did he specifically say that they would have separate futures?

Show!Arya is much older and I can see the show, which is all about the fanservice these days, sending them off together. Open ended and left to audience imagination on whether they hook up or not. The Storm lands could be her first stop after Gendry gets made Lord Paramount on the show. I doubt he is Lord Paramount in the books. That's possibly Edric Storm in the books.

I don't think we can take Arya's current writing as evidence of what is going to happen to her next season.  I remember Maisie Williams being all excited about Arya being more political this season. What did we get? Her wanting to cut off the heads of the Northern Lords?  This is the mockery that David and Dan have made of the character in the books, who remembers sitting with Ned while he ate with his men and listened to their problems to understand them better.

On 17/8/2017 at 6:30 PM, Eyes High said:

I sometimes wonder if part of the reason D&D decided fairly early on to swap in Sansa for Jeyne Poole in the Winterfell storyline is that they knew from the start that Sansa was destined to end up single and they thought they needed to give her a compelling reason to choose that. And obviously it would be problematic for D&D to assume that the only possible reason a young woman with her pick of men would choose to remain unmarried is if she'd been repeatedly raped, but I wouldn't put it past them.

I don't think GRRM and David and Dan are heading towards the same goal anymore. Arya, Jon and Bran all have a much better understanding of the North than Sansa in the books. Can you see book Sansa in charge of the likes of Wylla Manderly, Magnar of Thenn, Lyanna Mormont, Mors Crowfood etc.?  On the show, they have stripped Arya and Jon of their Northern expertise, reduced them to psycho assassin and idiot fighter, killed off Rickon, eliminated Bran because apparently he has no emotions anymore and put 'game player' Sansa in charge of a fickle, backstabbing North. 

I also think that it's possible that the Hound goes to WF next season. The show could leave the Hound-Sansa relationship open ended and leave it up to the audience (And GRRM) to decide if they get together in the future or not.

We will know after the show ends, how much of it is going to match up with GRRM's proposed endings and how much is different from showrunner and GRRM interviews.

New interview with Alan Taylor with some interesting tidbits:

Quote

DEADLINE: With over 10 million viewers watching the 9 PM broadcast and growing each week, plus all those on the other platforms, I think it’s pretty clear they are going to stick around, if for nothing else to see what brews up between Jon and Dany…

TAyLOR: There’s been an inevitability to the two of them coming together. It’s been foreshadowed over and over again, and those who know the books know it’s inevitable, but that doesn’t tell you anything about how it’s going to play out or how it’s going to go. I remember when I was doing Season 1 and we were on location in Malta, and George R. R. Martin came to visit. He was sitting in a chair, and he was being really quite open about things that were to come…

DEADLINE: About Jon and Dany or Game of Thrones in general?

TAYLOR: Bit of both, but it was early days and nobody was paying attention to the show. We didn’t really know what a phenomenon it was going to be, and I think he was being less guarded than we’ve become since then. Anyways, he alluded to the fact that Jon and Dany were the point, kind of. That, at the time, there was a huge, vast array of characters, and Jon was a lowly, you know, bastard son. So it wasn’t clear to us at the time, but he did sort of say things that made it clear that the meeting and the convergence of Jon and Dany were sort of the point of the series.

So, I was happy that a big step forward was taken in the episode I got to do this season is where he has fallen for her both, you know, emotionally and politically I think. He recognizes what she’s capable of, and is ready to bend the knee as soon as his knees bend. There’s still a step further to go with them in terms of the romantic side of things and a lot more to play out in terms of how the politics and the power struggle will work, but it was at least a sort of solid step forward in that major arc.

http://deadline.com/2017/08/game-of-thrones-spoilers-recap-kit-harington-emilia-clarke-alan-taylor-beyond-the-wall-season-7-hbo-1202152264/

I get the feeling now that Jon is going to survive and be endgame king.

And hopefully Dany survives too and not end up as his Nissa-Nissa - would be the worst ending ever for me. After working so hard towards her goal of reaching Westeros and the throne - to end up as NN for Jon... I would rant and rage for pages on here.

Edited August 21, 2017 by anamika

[OhOkayWhat]

6 minutes ago, anamika said:

Show!Arya is much older and I can see the show, which is all about the fanservice these days, sending them off together.

I think it is almost the opposite to fanservice with Arya. Fans expected all hugs between Arya and Sansa. And now we see it was not the case. I think there will be a open end for Sansa and Arya, but without any hint about a specific character.

[Oscirus]

2 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I think it is almost the opposite to fanservice with Arya. Fans expected all hugs between Arya and Sansa. And now we see it was not the case. I think there will be a open end for Sansa and Arya, but without any hint about a specific character.

But they'll get that moment in the finale between Sansa and Arya. Once Littlefinger's out of the picture it's nothing but love between the sisters.

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

New interview with Alan Taylor with some interesting tidbits:

http://deadline.com/2017/08/game-of-thrones-spoilers-recap-kit-harington-emilia-clarke-alan-taylor-beyond-the-wall-season-7-hbo-1202152264/

I get the feeling now that Jon is going to survive and be endgame king.

And hopefully Dany survives too and not end up as his Nissa-Nissa - would be the worst ending ever for me. After working so hard towards her goal of reaching Westeros and the throne - to end up as NN for Jon... I would rant and rage for pages on here.

He didn't give much away in in that interview, but nothing he said contradicted my belief that Jon and Dany end up ruling together. The "step further to go with them in terms of the romantic side of things" suggests to me a pregnancy. We'll see though.

[Eyes High]

4 hours ago, anamika said:

 Last I remember, GRRM mentioned that Arya and Gendry would meet again, but he was iffy about a relationship because of Arya's age - she is currently 11 and will be possibly 12 when the books end. Did he specifically say that they would have separate futures?

Yes. A Gendry/Arya shipper asked him about it years ago, and that was the answer he gave. There are threads about it at Westeros.org.

 

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Show!Arya is much older and I can see the show, which is all about the fanservice these days, sending them off together.

All indications are that the show and book endgames for the major characters will be the same. If Arya heads off by herself in the books, there's no reason to think that she wouldn't in the show.

 

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I don't think we can take Arya's current writing as evidence of what is going to happen to her next season.  I remember Maisie Williams being all excited about Arya being more political this season. What did we get? Her wanting to cut off the heads of the Northern Lords?

We knew from WOTW that she would be disagreeing with Sansa over politics, which did happen. Nowhere was it suggested that Arya would be proving herself an able politician.

 

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I don't think GRRM and David and Dan are heading towards the same goal anymore.

No, D&D have always been pretty clear that they've been heading towards GRRM's endgame, at least where the major characters are concerned.

 

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Arya, Jon and Bran all have a much better understanding of the North than Sansa in the books. 

Sure, but if Book Sansa ends up with Winterfell and not them, their superior knowledge of the North will be irrelevant to their endgames. 

 

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I also think that it's possible that the Hound goes to WF next season. The show could leave the Hound-Sansa relationship open ended and leave it up to the audience (And GRRM) to decide if they get together in the future or not.

If Sansa gets with the Hound in the show, I think that's a pretty strong indication that she will in the books. The endgames for the major characters will be the same.

 

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We will know after the show ends, how much of it is going to match up with GRRM's proposed endings and how much is different from showrunner and GRRM interviews.

I doubt that very much. D&D have already refused on several occasions to specify what's from the unpublished books and what's from the show, although they have specified with the three twists and with certain show-only aspects (Benjen is not Coldhands, they implied the sept explosion is something they came up with, etc.). They're not going to sit down after the show and go over what was from the books and what wasn't, as they have said in the past that they want to leave that to GRRM (or words to that effect). We can safely assume that for major characters, though, the endgames will be the same, although the paths they take to get to those endgames will differ.

We'll only know the extent of the differences, apart from the obvious ones like the changes caused by the elimination of characters like Arianne and Aegon, if/when TWOW and ADOS are published.

 

As for Jon/Dany, I was far more interested by Tyrion raising the issue of "breaking the wheel" by instituting a system similar to the NW or the Kingsmoot. Now, the issue could be academic if Jon and Dany survive and have a kid, but it seems that Dany's dream of "breaking the wheel" is now being linked to democracy.  Could be a red herring from the writers (especially with all the anvils in 7x06 about Jon and Dany having kids), but maybe not.

59 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

He didn't give much away in in that interview, but nothing he said contradicted my belief that Jon and Dany end up ruling together. 

It doesn't contradict Jon/Dany being endgame, I agree, but it doesn't specifically suggest that, either:

Quote

There’s been an inevitability to the two of them coming together. It’s been foreshadowed over and over again, and those who know the books know it’s inevitable, but that doesn’t tell you anything about how it’s going to play out or how it’s going to go. 

Edited August 21, 2017 by Eyes High

[Eyes High]

Another possible bit of endgame business from 7x06 is Arya's words to Sansa:

Quote

Arya: We both wanted to be other people when we were younger. You wanted to be a queen, to sit next to a handsome young king on the Iron Throne. I wanted to be a knight, to pick up a sword like Father and go off to battle. Neither of us got to be that other person, did we? The world doesn't just let girls decide what they're going to be. But I can now, etc. etc.

Sounds like it rules out Sansa as queen.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Eyes High

[anamika]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Yes. A Gendry/Arya shipper asked him about it years ago, and that was the answer he gave. There are threads about it at Westeros.org.

All indications are that the show and book endgames for the major characters will be the same. If Arya heads off by herself in the books, there's no reason to think that she wouldn't in the show.

I was on those threads at that time. Arya/Jon shipper Joan Jett had met GRRM at that time and privately messaged a few Arya fans on there. She mentioned nothing about GRRM saying that Gendry and Arya would go their own ways. Only that they would meet and that Arya was too young for a romantic relationship. I don't see what's wrong if they send Arya off with Gendry and leave it as an open ended relationship? How is that going to majorly change her endgame?

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Sure, but if Book Sansa ends up with Winterfell and not them, their superior knowledge of the North will be irrelevant to their endgames. 

I also don't think they are going to stick to the endgame book endings for the Starks including Rickon. There's no way that book Sansa ends up in charge of Winterfell without knowing how to rule it. That would mean that everything GRRM wrote for Arya learning from Ned in the first book and her understanding the small folk and Northern laws and all that was pointless and leading nowhere. Jon's knowledge will no doubt come into play when he becomes KITN for a while and Bran is the prince of Winterfell and has already ruled over it when Robb was campaigning.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

We knew from WOTW that she would be disagreeing with Sansa over politics, which did happen. Nowhere was it suggested that Arya would be proving herself an able politician.

I doubt Maisie Williams was getting excited about Arya being a shit politician, where her only involvement in that arc was suggesting that she cut off heads. We don't even get to see her POV, why she is doing the things she is doing. She is basically being used as a prop for the LF-Sansa story and I highly doubt that was how GRRM was planning on writing Arya's return to Winterfell.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

No, D&D have always been pretty clear that they've been heading towards GRRM's endgame, at least where the major characters are concerned.

I think this has changed. I have not recently seen them saying that the endgames of major characters will be the same. I don't see how they can even reach the same endgames for characters like Arya and Bran considering that they are not being written as important characters in their own right with their own stories. From their most recent interview:

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To what degree do you feel it needs to be perfectly congruent with the vision of the endgame of the novels that Martin presented to you?

BENIOFF: It’s already too late for that. We’re already well past the point of it jibing 100 percent. We’ve passed George and that’s something that George always worried about — the show catching up and ultimately passing him — but the good thing about us diverging at this point is that George’s books will still be a surprise for readers who have seen the show. Certain things that we learned from George way back in that meeting in Santa Fe are going to happen on the show, but certain things won’t. And there’s certain things where George didn’t know what was going to happen, so we’re going to find them out for the first time too, along with millions of readers when we read those books.

http://time.com/4791793/game-of-thrones-season-7-david-benioff-d-b-weiss/

Basically the show endgame is not going to be 100% what it's supposed to be in the books. And I am sure they are not talking about characters like Gendry, Yara, Missandei etc. who I don't think Martin envisioned an endgame for.   I think Jon, Dany and Tyrion's endgame will the same because I think they have been hitting all the major plot points with these characters.  Cersei is going to hang around till the very end. They don't seem to know what to do with Bran and Arya - two characters GRRM considers to be important to the overall story - and I doubt their story revolves around figuring out Jon's lineage and Sansa's LF drama in Winterfell.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

If Sansa gets with the Hound in the show, I think that's a pretty strong indication that she will in the books. The endgames for the major characters will be the same.

Nah, I don't think GRRM has figured out what to do with the Hound yet. That's why I think the show will leave that open ended. The Hound will probably replace Brienne and become Sansa's bodyguard or some such thing.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I doubt that very much. D&D have already refused on several occasions to specify what's from the unpublished books and what's from the show, although they have specified with the three twists and with certain show-only aspects (Benjen is not Coldhands, they implied the sept explosion is something they came up with, etc.). They're not going to sit down after the show and go over what was from the books and what wasn't, as they have said in the past that they want to leave that to GRRM (or words to that effect). We can safely assume that for major characters, though, the endgames will be the same, although the paths they take to get to those endgames will differ.

Of course they are not going to get into the specifics as seen above. But we could get some tidbits here and there from their interviews about whether this was something that GRRM envisioned or not - like Hodor or Stannis burning his daughter or even this interview with Taylor where he lets out that GRRM told him long back that the 'entire point of the series was the meeting and convergence of Jon and Dany' - That's big! I mean that's a confirmation that Jon and Dany are indeed Ice and Fire and that it does not just refer to Jon as has been long theorised. Jon and Dany are the song of Ice and Fire.

Edited August 21, 2017 by anamika

[SeanC]

9 minutes ago, anamika said:

There's no way that book Sansa ends up in charge of Winterfell without knowing how to rule it. 

Why could that not be part of her narrative?  Indeed, her whole story is about learning politics.

Quote

Nah, I don't think GRRM has figured out what to do with the Hound yet. 

He's said he knows the endgames for the major characters, including Sansa.  Whether she ends up in a relationship with the Hound would be a big aspect of knowing her ending.  If GRRM hasn't decided what to do with the Hound, that necessarily indicates that he doesn't have a future with Sansa.

It's the same as with Bran and Meera.

As far as how closely the ending will track the books, I don't think anybody disputes that the mechanics will be greatly different.  At this point the writers have forcibly reduced the series to 2-3 main plot strands, which means shoving main characters more closely together more than will likely happen.

However, the writers have always said they will adhere to the bullet points of the ending for the leads.  So who married who, who rules what, who has whose babies, etc.  The plots leading to those end points cannot but be different, and the themes are often quite different, but this is the writers' attempt at getting to that ending.

[Eyes High]

14 minutes ago, anamika said:

I was on those threads at that time. Arya/Jon shipper Joan Jett had met GRRM at that time and privately messaged a few Arya fans on there. She mentioned nothing about GRRM saying that Gendry and Arya would go their own ways. 

See this thread, where the OP (Joan Jett) notes that a Gendry/Arya shipper on Fanfiction.net appended the following note to their Gendry/Arya fanfic:

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NOTE: Okay so GRRM, arrived in Toronto yesterday for a book signing and unfortunately because of an exam, I was unable to attend (BOO!) so I asked my friend to ask him about Gendry and Arya's "relationship" and if they would ever reunite again. His response was that Arya and Gendry have separate futures but whether they'll ever meet up again, you'll just have to keep reading. Okay I just DIED! My heart is full of grief and it seems the only way we can keep this pairing alive is through their fanfictions. I'm just so heart broken right now *weeps*

It's a mistake to think that GRRM never definitively shoots down fan theories. Recently, he did a Q&A in Russia where when he was asked if Jorah would ever get out of the friendzone, he replied "I wouldn't bet on it." 

[anamika]

52 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Why could that not be part of her narrative?  Indeed, her whole story is about learning politics.

LF politics is not the same as Northern politics in the books. Again are you saying that GRRM is writing Sansa to be Ned like and in charge of the likes of Mors Crowfood and now the Thenns?

We have examples of female leaders in charge of the North - Lyanna Mormont, Alys Karstark, Wylla Manderly - all Arya clones. Alys even looks like Arya. 

52 minutes ago, SeanC said:

He's said he knows the endgames for the major characters, including Sansa.  Whether she ends up in a relationship with the Hound would be a big aspect of knowing her ending.  If GRRM hasn't decided what to do with the Hound, that necessarily indicates that he doesn't have a future with Sansa.

I doubt it. I doubt that he even knows the end game of characters like Arya at this point considering how much has changed since he started writing, how things like the '5 yr gap' has already messed up his story and him unable to complete the books. I don't think  he has decided on what to do with the Hound and Cogman pretty much admitted that they brought him back only because they liked the actor. So Sansa's imagined romance with the Hound either means nothing or GRRM has not decided on whether to bring him back and the show took their own route.

52 minutes ago, SeanC said:

However, the writers have always said they will adhere to the bullet points of the ending for the leads.  So who married who, who rules what, who has whose babies, etc.  The plots leading to those end points cannot but be different, and the themes are often quite different, but this is the writers' attempt at getting to that ending.

Again, in their most recent interview linked above, they indicate that this is not happening. The vision of the endgame novels that Martin presented to them is not happening 100% on the show. I doubt 5 years ago, GRRM knew more than what was going to happen to his major characters - that was the endgame he gave David and Dan - and they have come out and said that it was too late to stick to that ending. GRRM himself has said that he warned David and Dan of the butterfly effect and how it was going to change things down the road. I doubt D and D care at this point.

47 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

See this thread, where the OP (Joan Jett) notes that a Gendry/Arya shipper on Fanfiction.net appended the following note to their Gendry/Arya fanfic:

It's a mistake to think that GRRM never definitively shoots down fan theories. Recently, he did a Q&A in Russia where when he was asked if Jorah would ever get out of the friendzone, he replied "I wouldn't bet on it." 

Ok, what Joan Jett (the OP) messaged us after meeting with GRRM was that Gendry and Arya would meet again but romance was not a possibility because she was too young. Nothing about them going their separate ways.

Edit: Ok wait. I looked at that thread - that's from 2012? But the Joan Jett message about Arya/Gendry I was talking about was her meeting with GRRM last year in Balticon.

But again, I don't see the harm in the show putting her with Gendry if she is going exploring or whatever? At this point so much has changed, that I doubt this is going to be an issue of contention.

Edited August 21, 2017 by anamika

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, doram said:

I don't think a producer is going to reveal a major plot point in an interview. 

I reread the interview and realized that he did give away something major. Martin "made it clear that the meeting and the convergence of Jon and Dany were sort of the point of the series." 

 

27 minutes ago, SeanC said:

He's said he knows the endgames for the major characters, including Sansa.  Whether she ends up in a relationship with the Hound would be a big aspect of knowing her ending.  If GRRM hasn't decided what to do with the Hound, that necessarily indicates that he doesn't have a future with Sansa.

I thought Martin didn't consider Sansa one of the five main characters.

[SeanC]

10 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I thought Martin didn't consider Sansa one of the five main characters.

Without wading into the whole debate about the outline and whatever continued relevance the original five concept still had, GRRM has explicitly said he knows the endings of the top tier of characters, which he defined as being the Stark kids (all by name), Jon, Dany, and the three main Lannisters.

[SimoneS]

5 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Without wading into the whole debate about the outline and whatever continued relevance the original five concept still had, GRRM has explicitly said he knows the endings of the top tier of characters, which he defined as being the Stark kids (all by name), Jon, Dany, and the three main Lannisters.

Thanks. I haven't been keeping track of his comments.

[that one guy]

I have a crackpot theory that the Night King himself is the cause of the weird seasons on this world. As in, he literally brings the storm, he's like a humanoid groundhog's day. The season depends on how far north he is. When he wanders up to the Land of Always Winter, it's summer south of the Wall. When he wanders back near the Wall, it's winter. Seasons are of variable length because they depend upon his itinerary. He moves slowly, as we've seen, because it's his way to stop along the path long enough to kill every living creature in the area. You do that sort of thing when you are the living embodiment of the heat death of the universe.

[Tikichick]

Looking at last night's episode I couldn't help but be reminded of Hardhome and the particular attention the NK paid to Jon.  Given the way things have played out since then I now cannot help but wonder where Bran fits into this particular triangle, because I cannot help but feel there is one.  I've begun to wonder if the NK now has access to a tremendous amount of information by virtue of touching Bran.

[Wouter]

7 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Another possible bit of endgame business from 7x06 is Arya's words to Sansa:

Sounds like it rules out Sansa as queen.

Well, not at the side of a handsome young king, at least. That ship has probably sailed.

Nothing said about an ugly, middleage king though, for example.

Arya really isn't that far of being a knight, after all. A knight is an armed and armoured rider on a horse.

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, Wouter said:

Well, not at the side of a handsome young king, at least. That ship has probably sailed.

Nothing said about an ugly, middleage king though, for example.

Yes, I suppose there is a loophole there.

 

Quote

Arya really isn't that far of being a knight, after all. A knight is an armed and armoured rider on a horse.

Arya has never wanted to be a knight in either the books or the show--in the books she asked Ned whether she could be a king's councillor, build castles, or the High Septon, and in the show version of that conversation she asked Ned whether she could be lord of a holdfast--so her claim in 7x06 that she had dreamed of being a knight came out of nowhere. I guess you could say that she did idolize Syrio, who at one time served as the First Sword of Braavos (a function somewhat analogous to the Kingsguard, as far as I can tell), but it's still a big leap from worshipping Syrio to wanting to be a knight. Wanting to be a knight is Brienne's thing, not Arya's. 

Edited August 21, 2017 by Eyes High

[LadyChaos]

9 hours ago, SeanC said:

Without wading into the whole debate about the outline and whatever continued relevance the original five concept still had, GRRM has explicitly said he knows the endings of the top tier of characters, which he defined as being the Stark kids (all by name), Jon, Dany, and the three main Lannisters.

I thought he only mentioned Bran and Arya by name for true born Starks? The rest were Dany, Jon, and Tyrion?.

[SeanC]

6 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

I thought he only mentioned Bran and Arya by name for true born Starks? The rest were Dany, Jon, and Tyrion?.

If you're speaking of the ur-outline, yes, those were the five main characters in it.  I wasn't talking about that.  He has talked about knowing the endings since then (I can't find the quote at the moment).

[OhOkayWhat]

19 hours ago, Oscirus said:

But they'll get that moment in the finale between Sansa and Arya. Once Littlefinger's out of the picture it's nothing but love between the sisters.

It depends how it is played on screen. 

[amandawoods]

When the Night King is killed, I'm guessing it's going to be in close combat and the Valerian Dagger is going to be a part of it.  

I'm kind of hoping that it's a group effort with Jon, Jamie and Arya involved.  

[Eyes High]

Another interview from Alan Taylor (director of 7x06) about the importance of Jon and Dany (I bolded the relevant bits):

Quote

 

Taylor: (...) So it’s true — all of the characters have such big arcs and he’s got them so mapped out in his head that the story is functioning moment to moment but also in these grand story gestures over several seasons, and that’s what makes it so rich. We were in Malta shooting episode ten of the first season, and the show wasn’t a big deal yet and we weren’t being very secretive because nobody cared yet, and [Martin] just sort of mentioned in passing, “Oh well it’s all about Dany and Jon Snow” and at the time I thought, “Really? I thought it was about Sean Bean and Robb Stark?”

But he knew from the very beginning where he was driving and now we’re starting to see that come to fruition. We know that it’s circling tighter and tighter  on Dany  and Jon and their partnership is starting to form, you know, “fire and ice.”

Renfro: Do you know if he was specific back then about them becoming romantically involved, since that’s really only just become “official” in this latest season seven episode?

Taylor: I think it’s become more official but it’s been coming for awhile, so much so that it’s not only starting to happen but Tyrion sees it coming enough that he’s making fun of her for it. He can see what’s brewing.

I can’t say much more about what [Martin] said about where we’re going with Dany and Jon because that leaps ahead into the next season, but to  me the revelation  was that, at the time, we had a hundred characters and yet he knew it’s about these two.

 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

Going into the final season (and with spoilers for the Season 7 finale), my deluxe ratings of potential deaths among the remaining cast:

DEAD

1. Lord Dondarrion - though really, wouldn't it be hilarious if he survived?
2. Cersei
3. Jaime
4. Qyburn
5. Euron
6. Tormund
7. Jorah - a glorious death in Khaleesi's service is the only way to leave the Friendzone.
8. Melisandre
9. Varys - BBQ'd by Dany for disloyalty.
10. Gregor Clegane

NOT DEAD

1. Bran
2. Arya
3. Sansa
4. Dany - the recent anvils about an impending miracle baby confer probable immunity.
5. Tyrion - now that he's seemingly not going to get to ride that dragon like everybody long predicted he would, it seems like it'd be hard to kill him off in a narratively satisfying way.
6. Sam
7. Gilly - as a powerless civilian with no real narrative role beyond love interest/helpmeet, I have a hard time imagining a death for her that served any story purpose beyond gratuitous nastiness.
8. Missandei - somewhat similar to Gilly, albeit she's a bit more of a participant; but she doesn't really have her own arc that a death could serve as a meaningful capstone to, so if she died it would be as fodder so that Dany could cry about it, and I'll put it this way:  the show's only black woman getting killed by zombies so that her white boss can cry about it would be fantastic advertising for D&D's upcoming Confederate series.
9. Bronn - his character is basically a little joke about gradual upward advancement (which the series has waffled with a bit), I expect he'll end things having risen fairly high on his ruthless dedication to looking out for #1.

PROGNOSIS UNCERTAIN

1. Jon - the ur-outline prophesies his survival, so he's got that in his favour; I include him here solely because of the original five mains he seems the most likely to have had that status revoked, and in particular, between him and Dany, Dany has to live to birth the miracle baby (which can't possibly happen within the main narrative action).
2. Brienne - one of the show's most prominent brawlers, and her arc is by times about serving the Starks and her interactions with Jaime; one could imagine her meeting her end in either capacity.
3. Grey Worm - arguably protected by the same factor as Missandei, but as a low-level combatant character it's easier to imagine his being granted a fittingly heroic demise in battle.
4. Davos - he's not really a combatant, but I could vaguely imagine him dying as a sort of prominent mid-tier casualty.  His arc is basically about loyal service.
5. Sandor Clegane - basically depends on whether he's supposed to hook up with Sansa or not; if not, he probably gets a glorious heroic demise of the sort he would have cynically mocked.
6. Theon 
7. Yara - it seems like one of the two Greyjoy siblings has to survive, and possibly both will.
8. Gendry - seems unlikely, but if he's not going to hook up with Arya, I could see the whole "revival of House Baratheon" idea being a false lead and he's back to swing that hammer and fall in battle.

Edited August 22, 2017 by SeanC

[LadyChaos]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Going into the final season (and with spoilers for the Season 7 finale), my deluxe ratings of potential deaths among the remaining cast:

DEAD

1. Lord Dondarrion - though really, wouldn't it be hilarious if he survived?
2. Cersei
3. Jaime
4. Qyburn
5. Euron
6. Tormund
7. Jorah - a glorious death in Khaleesi's service is the only way to leave the Friendzone.
8. Melisandre
9. Varys - BBQ'd by Dany for disloyalty.
10. Gregor Clegane

NOT DEAD

1. Bran
2. Arya
3. Sansa
4. Dany - the recent anvils about an impending miracle baby confer probable immunity.
5. Tyrion - now that he's seemingly not going to get to ride that dragon like everybody long predicted he would, it seems like it'd be hard to kill him off in a narratively satisfying way.
6. Sam
7. Gilly - as a powerless civilian with no real narrative role beyond love interest/helpmeet, I have a hard time imagining a death for her that served any story purpose beyond gratuitous nastiness.
8. Missandei - somewhat similar to Gilly, albeit she's a bit more of a participant; but she doesn't really have her own arc that a death could serve as a meaningful capstone to, so if she died it would be as fodder so that Dany could cry about it, and I'll put it this way:  the show's only black woman getting killed by zombies so that her white boss can cry about it would be fantastic advertising for D&D's upcoming Confederate series.
9. Bronn - his character is basically a little joke about gradual upward advancement (which the series has waffled with a bit), I expect he'll end things having risen fairly high on his ruthless dedication to looking out for #1.

PROGNOSIS UNCERTAIN

1. Jon - the ur-outline prophesies his survival, so he's got that in his favour; I include him here solely because of the original five mains he seems the most likely to have had that status revoked, and in particular, between him and Dany, Dany has to live to birth the miracle baby (which can't possibly happen within the main narrative action).
2. Brienne - one of the show's most prominent brawlers, and her arc is by times about serving the Starks and her interactions with Jaime; one could imagine her meeting her end in either capacity.
3. Grey Worm - arguably protected by the same factor as Missandei, but as a low-level combatant character it's easier to imagine his being granted a fittingly heroic demise in battle.
4. Davos - he's not really a combatant, but I could vaguely imagine him dying as a sort of prominent mid-tier casualty.  His arc is basically about loyal service.
5. Sandor Clegane - basically depends on whether he's supposed to hook up with Sansa or not; if not, he probably gets a glorious heroic demise of the sort he would have cynically mocked.
6. Theon 
7. Yara - it seems like one of the two Greyjoy siblings has to survive, and possibly both will.
8. Gendry - seems unlikely, but if he's not going to hook up with Arya, I could see the whole "revival of House Baratheon" idea being a false lead and he's back to swing that hammer and fall in battle.

God I hope Cersei dies in the season finale! That would make me so happy.

[SimoneS]

16 hours ago, doram said:

@Eyes High Hasn't that been obvious since the first book?

Not to the fans who still contend that Jon alone is "ice and fire." 

 

14 hours ago, SeanC said:

Going into the final season (and with spoilers for the Season 7 finale), my deluxe ratings of potential deaths among the remaining cast:

DEAD

1. Lord Dondarrion - though really, wouldn't it be hilarious if he survived?
2. Cersei
3. Jaime
4. Qyburn
5. Euron
6. Tormund
7. Jorah - a glorious death in Khaleesi's service is the only way to leave the Friendzone.
8. Melisandre
9. Varys - BBQ'd by Dany for disloyalty.
10. Gregor Clegane

NOT DEAD

1. Bran
2. Arya
3. Sansa
4. Dany - the recent anvils about an impending miracle baby confer probable immunity.
5. Tyrion - now that he's seemingly not going to get to ride that dragon like everybody long predicted he would, it seems like it'd be hard to kill him off in a narratively satisfying way.
6. Sam
7. Gilly - as a powerless civilian with no real narrative role beyond love interest/helpmeet, I have a hard time imagining a death for her that served any story purpose beyond gratuitous nastiness.
8. Missandei - somewhat similar to Gilly, albeit she's a bit more of a participant; but she doesn't really have her own arc that a death could serve as a meaningful capstone to, so if she died it would be as fodder so that Dany could cry about it, and I'll put it this way:  the show's only black woman getting killed by zombies so that her white boss can cry about it would be fantastic advertising for D&D's upcoming Confederate series.
9. Bronn - his character is basically a little joke about gradual upward advancement (which the series has waffled with a bit), I expect he'll end things having risen fairly high on his ruthless dedication to looking out for #1.

PROGNOSIS UNCERTAIN

1. Jon - the ur-outline prophesies his survival, so he's got that in his favour; I include him here solely because of the original five mains he seems the most likely to have had that status revoked, and in particular, between him and Dany, Dany has to live to birth the miracle baby (which can't possibly happen within the main narrative action).
2. Brienne - one of the show's most prominent brawlers, and her arc is by times about serving the Starks and her interactions with Jaime; one could imagine her meeting her end in either capacity.
3. Grey Worm - arguably protected by the same factor as Missandei, but as a low-level combatant character it's easier to imagine his being granted a fittingly heroic demise in battle.
4. Davos - he's not really a combatant, but I could vaguely imagine him dying as a sort of prominent mid-tier casualty.  His arc is basically about loyal service.
5. Sandor Clegane - basically depends on whether he's supposed to hook up with Sansa or not; if not, he probably gets a glorious heroic demise of the sort he would have cynically mocked.
6. Theon 
7. Yara - it seems like one of the two Greyjoy siblings has to survive, and possibly both will.
8. Gendry - seems unlikely, but if he's not going to hook up with Arya, I could see the whole "revival of House Baratheon" idea being a false lead and he's back to swing that hammer and fall in battle.

I agree with most of your predictions except Jon who I think definitely lives. I love Brienne and would love for her to live and be happy, but I haven't see any hints that predict her fate one way or the other. I have been leaning towards Gendry living to re-establish the Baratheons, but I could see him surviving the war with the NK only to die in the war against Cersei. If Theon successfully rescues Yara, I just cannot see her dying.

Edited August 23, 2017 by SimoneS

[OhOkayWhat]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

Sandor Clegane - basically depends on whether he's supposed to hook up with Sansa or not; if not, he probably gets a glorious heroic demise of the sort he would have cynically mocked.

Very interesting list. About Sandor, I think it depends mostly on Arya's Season 8 story arc.(.....and Cleganebowl)

Edited August 23, 2017 by OhOkayWhat