S12.E10: Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets

[AwesomO4000]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

TBH, I don't think Sam's been all that zen about it from the beginning.

I see what you're saying, but I mostly meant from the very beginning and the "afterglow."

For me Sam seemed to be in a very good place post getting rescued. He had Dean alive, he was saved, and he had Mary who "filled a hole." But I think there was a difference of opinion for some viewers even back then on whether Sam was okay back then or not - I was in the okay camp, which is where the zen comes from. I thought Sam was hopeful back then and that added to Yay, Dean alive = relatively happy Sam, in my opinion.

12 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

He won't confront Mary like Dean does, but he's not reaching out to her either.

But this could also be a coping mechanism. If Mary is out there with the possibility of coming back, that might be better than an actual call where she says she can't - or won't - be back any time soon. The zen delusion is easier without messy facts that get in the way... sort of like Sam's delusion of his Amelia life that we learned wasn't all that rosy and was actually more dysfunctional. And Sam can likely forgive the not calling part more than an actual statement that she won't be coming back.

I still stand by the part about trying to make Dean feel okay about the situation, though. It also helps feed his own armor.

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I think those memories you mentioned are exactly why Dean could (note that I did not say that Dean does) have a preconceived idea of motherhood.  Or at least of his mother.  His REAL experiences of having a mother were a woman who stayed home and took care of him - even if she didn't bake the cookies or the pie herself.  Buying or making pies is secondary to care-giving, which is what Mary did for Dean when he was young.  She stayed home.   She didn't go to work outside the home - at least that he was aware.  She was there for him, pretty much all the time.  And now she's not.    So I don't really understand why anyone would be upset if that is kind of/sort of what Dean expected of his mother.  Well, of course he did!  

The difference is that Dean as a full grown man has lived with a woman who worked at least part time and raised a son alone before that and has known and accepted women like Ellen and Jody who are quasi-mother figures to him who worked outside the home. He's only been shown to respect them  so why would that just stop being the case and for him to have this expectation of Mary to stay at home other than he reverted to being a 4 yr old and wanting Mommy?  If that was the narrative then they sure did a piss poor job of showing it.

My point about Dean's memories was that he would feel an attachment to Mary based on those things which is why he wanted her to stay and be with them, not that Dean seeks to recreate his actual childhood with Mary home baking pies for him and Sam. Dean wanted time with Mary,  was worried for her safety but was willing to hunt with her. So how does that mesh with this perception that Dean wants her around the bunker doing traditional "Mom" things as I think the opening coversation with Sam is implying.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

She didn't go to work outside the home - at least that he was aware.  She was there for him, pretty much all the time.  And now she's not.    So I don't really understand why anyone would be upset if that is kind of/sort of what Dean expected of his mother.  Well, of course he did!  

Because he knows he is now 30+ years. As a four-year old he would have expected from her to make him dinner, pick out his clothes, give him baths, cuddle with him, dress and undress him. And I`m pretty sure he doesn`t expect any of this now. Nostalgia or not. He would be freaked the fuck out if she even attempted that. Likewise, Sam would probably barricade his room if she came in with a diaper and a determined attitude to make up for lost time.

So I really do think he has different expectations of her now. Like that she takes an interest in her children. And yet Sam`s comment made it seem like Dean had to be lectured somehow for having the expectations of a baby/little boy, namely that Mommy would stay home and just take care of him. When nothing he sai warranted that. To me, it was the dialogue equivalent of a rolled-up newspaper to his head, in a situation where he did nothing wrong. He just expressed some concern about her possibly jumping too quick into things. It wasn`t the demands of a selfish baby.   

[rue721]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Also, since Dean is apparently the more antagonistic one with her, why is he the only one who talks to her? Like, why did Sam ask Dean if he heard from her recently? Do they not communicate at all? Right now it seems as if Sam is so zen, he never makes an attempt to contact her and Mary cares so little, she doesn`t reach out either without any prompting. Even John send freaking text messages every now and then and that guy was an asshole a lot of the time.

IIRC, Dean started texting Mary pretty soon after she left the bunker. That's when he asked about calling her "mom," and she said of course he could. That was before Asa Fox's funeral, I think. I've gotten the impression that they've fallen into the habit of just kind of texting each other back and forth pretty casually at this point, but YMMV.

I don't think Dean is necessarily the only one who talks to Mary, though. Sam was asking if Dean had talked to her really recently, like within the last day or two. I thought he was just asking if Dean had gotten any news about what she was up to since the last time that Sam had talked to her or had last heard anything about her from Dean. Sam could have talked to her himself just a week or even a few days before, and his question still would have made sense. Not saying that Sam is definitely in touch with her himself (or if so, how often), just that those things seem impossible to tell based on what was said in that particular scene.

In that conversation about Mary at the top of the episode, I thought it was interesting that Sam called Dean out as having issues with Mary not being Suzy Homemaker. Whether Sam's theory for why Dean is having trouble accepting Mary is right or not, I thought it was interesting that he floated it at all. The way he just casually put that theory/idea out there made me think that Sam and Dean are being pretty open with each other about Mary altogether, which is cool. It's still interesting to watch them function as such a tight little team, in contrast to Lone Wolf Mary. YMMV.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

There has never been any good scene that really addresses WHY Dean specifically would have this preconceived idea of motherhood especially since I can't recall Dean ever demonstrating any kind of proclivity that he thinks Moms are supposed to be a certain thing.

 

1 hour ago, SueB said:

I think Dean's thoughts are not about "motherhood" but more about Mary, HIS mother.

I agree @SueB. It makes sense that Dean would be having problems accepting Mary not because he's got such rigid ideas about ~mothers~ as a general concept, but because his belief that HIS mother would love him and want to take care of him was something that gave him a lot of strength, and losing his faith in that belief hasn't been easy.

He's a grown man and all now, so of course his mindset has presumably changed, but IMO it's still pretty telling that he seemed to work so hard when he was growing up to make himself believe that his father had his best interests at heart and would rescue/protect him. I mean, he seems like somebody who really WANTED to feel loved and protected as a kid, and who forced himself to feel that way mostly through his own strength of will. Maybe, telling himself that his mom would be doing that loving and nurturing if she could was part of where he found that strength of will.

He's an adult now and is more than capable of taking care of himself, but I can see how he could feel like he got the rug pulled out from under him now that he's found out that his actual mom is pretty distant and not really the nurturing type after all. Sort of like, he had thought that she and he were in it together this whole time, that they were on the same team (even if she could only be there in spirit), but now it turns out he had been going it alone after all.

What I mainly find kind of confounding is how he's expressing his feelings. Not 100% sure what Jensen is going for.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

In that conversation about Mary at the top of the episode, I thought it was interesting that Sam called Dean out as having issues with Mary not being Suzy Homemaker. Whether Sam's theory for why Dean is having trouble accepting Mary is right or not, I thought it was interesting that he floated it at all. 

I thought it was another of these clumsy "Dean is wrong and needs his behaviour corrected by the much wiser Sam" exchanges that I couldn`t be less fond of if I tried. Especially as if it`s pure conjecture that gets called out as fact. Someone did this with me, I would be the one calling their ass out.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The difference is that Dean as a full grown man has lived with a woman who worked at least part time and raised a son alone before that and has known and accepted women like Ellen and Jody who are quasi-mother figures to him who worked outside the home.

But those weren't HIS mother.  That's a big difference emotionally.  And it's got nothing to do with being emotionally mature even.  I know grown married men now whose wives work and they do plenty of child-rearing themselves.  That doesn't mean they don't have different expectations of their own mothers when, say they go home over the holidays.  And it goes both ways, obviously.  If this weren't a common phenomena, there probably wouldn't be so much anxiety associated with 'going home.'.  

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

My point about Dean's memories was that he would feel an attachment to Mary based on those things which is why he wanted her to stay and be with them, not that Dean seeks to recreate his actual childhood with Mary home baking pies for him and Sam. Dean wanted time with Mary,  was worried for her safety but was willing to hunt with her. So how does that mesh with this perception that Dean wants her around the bunker doing traditional "Mom" things as I think the opening coversation with Sam is implying.

I agree with your first part of this - and perhaps I misunderstood initially.  But I think Sam's comment was just as @shang yiet said - just a short hand comment.  I didn't think there was any offense or criticism of Dean intended.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

41 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

So I really do think he has different expectations of her now. Like that she takes an interest in her children.

I think you took what I wrote entirely too literally...I never said anything about diapers or picking out his clothes.  Care-giving can be expressed in many different ways - taking an interest in her children would be one.  

[DittyDotDot]

48 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But this could also be a coping mechanism.

Of course it's a coping mechanism; he doesn't want to be rejected again, but he also doesn't want to make a fuss and drive her further away. So, he puts on the "I'm cool with it" veneer, but It doesn't mean that he is actually cool with it. And, I think his underlying anger has been rearing it's head all season, but it's subtle and Sam's doing a pretty good job of masking it, IMO. However, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Sam get really obsessed over something that seems really trivial in the coming weeks. That's usually his MO for how he copes, IMO.

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, rue721 said:

He's an adult now and is more than capable of taking care of himself, but I can see how he could feel like he got the rug pulled out from under him now that he's found out that his actual mom is pretty distant and not really the nurturing type after all. Sort of like, he had thought that she and he were in it together this whole time, that they were on the same team (even if she could only be there in spirit), but now it turns out he had been going it alone after all.

 

7 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I agree with your first part of this - and perhaps I misunderstood initially.  But I think Sam's comment was just as @shang yiet said - just a short hand comment.  I didn't think there was any offense or criticism of Dean intended.  

It's not the first time that implication has been made by Sam. If it was once I would ignore it. So since it's been repeated, I think it's painting a picture because neither Dean nor anyone else is refuting Sam's viewpoint as he seems to think is how Dean sees things.

[ohjoy]

43 minutes ago, rue721 said:

What I mainly find kind of confounding is how he's expressing his feelings. Not 100% sure what Jensen is going for.

IIRC during one of those convention panels back in late fall that scene when Mary first announced she was leaving was brought up, Jensen seemed to imply that Dean's reaction in that moment came across differently in the episode than Jensen had intended when filming. He didn't really elaborate, but it did make me wonder if what we're getting from Dean in these moments dealing with/talking about Mary is not quite what Jensen is going for after all.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, RandomMe said:

IIRC during one of those convention panels back in late fall that scene when Mary first announced she was leaving was brought up, Jensen seemed to imply that Dean's reaction in that moment came across differently in the episode than Jensen had intended when filming. He didn't really elaborate, but it did make me wonder if what we're getting from Dean in these moments dealing with/talking about Mary is not quite what Jensen is going for after all.

I wonder if he's having trouble with finding what Dean's inner life/conflict with Mary would be. Like I think Dean's reactions to Mary leaving so soon are actually reasonable , the anger, frustration, abandonment fears etc but then Sam is telling Dean or at least implying that his reactions are wrong or unacceptable, so maybe Jensen is trying to play Dean as having cognitive dissonance in general.

[rue721]

11 minutes ago, RandomMe said:

IIRC during one of those convention panels back in late fall that scene when Mary first announced she was leaving was brought up, Jensen seemed to imply that Dean's reaction in that moment came across differently in the episode than Jensen had intended when filming. He didn't really elaborate, but it did make me wonder if what we're getting from Dean in these moments dealing with/talking about Mary is not quite what Jensen is going for after all.

Yes, I loved his reaction in that scene -- but I think it's legitimate that maybe how Jensen had thought he'd play this storyline beforehand turned out not to feel quite right in the actual moment/on screen, and it has ended up that he's sort of working out where he's going with this (emotionally, performance-wise, etc) on the fly.

I think of how he played Demon!Dean (which I also loved) and how he clearly had a fully formed perspective on that storyline/performance going into it, and IMO his performance in this storyline feels a lot more like he's having to figure it out as he goes along or like it's not as conceptual.

That's not really a criticism or a complaint, because I actually think it's pretty cool if Jensen is on the ball enough to assess and adjust his own performance that way. But IMO something does feel off, in that his performance seems a little more muddled than usual, and it's a little harder than usual to really see/connect with where Dean's head is at. It just doesn't feel quite right somehow. YMMV

[FlickChick]

Jensen knows the character of Dean so completely. Maybe the hesitation, or mixed emotions as Jensen figures out how to show Dean's feelings about these issues with Mary, just reflect how Dean is vacillating in his feelings as well. Maybe Dean isn't sure about what he's feeling or how he thinks he should feel about Mary's actions since she returned. IDK.

[MysteryGuest]

I took Dean's comments about Mary maybe jumping back into hunting too soon as just his concern that maybe it's a bit early for her to be going off on these hunts alone.  Dean is the worrier, and he's going to worry about Mary just like he's always worried about Sam.  I don't think it's because he has some image of "mommy" staying at home, or anything like that.  

It's not easy to figure out where Sam and Dean's heads are where Mary's concerned because the writers have given us so little to go on.  We are assuming that she knows everything about them, but we've not been given any evidence of that.  You would think that Mary's learning that both of her sons had spent time in actual Hell would have been a conversation worth having, onscreen.  Or that they've spoken to God.  Or prevented the world from ending...several times.  I have to think she knows these things, but I resent the fact that we never got to see any of that.

Edited February 7, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So since it's been repeated, I think it's painting a picture because neither Dean nor anyone else is refuting Sam's viewpoint as he seems to think is how Dean sees things.

Maybe Dean just doesn't think it's worth refuting?  There's been plenty of times one of my brothers has made a comment to me based on their perception, which wasn't how it was at all.  But you know what?  Sometimes it's not worth getting all into it, especially when there's another job to do - like they were looking into.

And if it is how Dean sees things, again, I understand why and don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with it, based on his past experience.  

And if people are just upset because they think Sam is 'calling Dean out on it' or 'correcting' him - then they should also remember that Sam never had the same nurturing mother experiences growing up at all, so it's not the same for him.  It makes sense to me if Sam doesn't understand Dean's reaction to Mary not being there as I think they both should have different expectations.  Maybe, being the older and wiser one, Dean understands that also and that's why he let Sam's comment slide by.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Maybe Dean just doesn't think it's worth refuting?  There's been plenty of times one of my brothers has made a comment to me based on their perception, which wasn't how it was at all.  But you know what?  Sometimes it's not worth getting all into it, especially when there's another job to do - like they were looking into.

Yeah, I pretty much said something similar upthread. Unfortunately, it's fanwank to an extent because Dean hasn't told anyone nor has it been conveyed to the audience that this is the case.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Unfortunately, it's fanwank to an extent because Dean hasn't told anyone nor has it been conveyed to the audience that this is the case.

I wouldn't call it fanwank because neither has it been conveyed to the audience that it isn't the case - which leaves it entirely open to interpretation.  

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I wouldn't call it fanwank because neither has it been conveyed to the audience that it isn't the case - which leaves it entirely open to interpretation.  

IMO, open to interpretation, I think it mostly applies to what is shown vs not having something addressed on screen at all in anyway and having to fill in the blanks which to me is fanwank/headcanon, which I apply to myself here. I think that fits with trying to figure out both Dean and Sam's headspace currently..  YMMV

[shang yiet]

Quote

Sam never had the same nurturing mothering experience so it's not the same ... different expectations

All the more, Sam should be the one wanting Mary to hand him some nurturing pie or sandwiches. How exactly is Mary filling up the hole in his life when she is so distant? Differing expectations - it's like he has no expectations from her.  I know, I know, all the emotion is bubbling up inside and one day will burst out (I hope before the season is over)  but I do agree that we are in fanwank territory.

I never thought Dean was waiting for mommy to be Suzy Homemaker, I just took it as Dean worried about Mary's safety and Sam's remark as just shorthand for saying that can't be helped since Mary will insist on hunting anyway and won't dream of quitting and being safer at home.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 hours ago, shang yiet said:

All the more, Sam should be the one wanting Mary to hand him some nurturing pie or sandwiches. How exactly is Mary filling up the hole in his life when she is so distant? Differing expectations - it's like he has no expectations from her. 

I think this may be the difference between hopes and expectations.  Maybe Sam hoped that Mary would stick around (whether or not it was baking cookies and picking out their clothes) when he gave her that 'hole in his life' speech, but I don't think he really knows what to expect of a mother or how a mother (particularly his) should act since he never had one growing up.  Imo, it's easier to adjust your views /opinions when you have no concrete expectations at the outset.  So that might be another reason why Sam seems so zen.

[catrox14]

I dunno o, I think Sams rage at Magdas mother in American Nightmare was not solely about Magda's plight  but also about a mother being kinda of awful to her child in general. Magda's mother abandoned Magda through abuse and neglect and isolating her because she believed she was controlled by the Devil. . Obviously it's not the same as Mary but Sams barely contained anger did come right after he watched Mary leave them. I thought Sam had a rather bereft look on his face  after the door slammed shut behind Mary.

Sam may be trying to fake it til he makes it but I thought he was becoming more sympathetic to Dean's POV in the Asa Fox episode. I felt like whilst he was sideeying Dean for his anger with Mary,  I thought he wasn't 100% thrilled with Mary in the moment either, but he couldn't fully go against her either. I mean maybe some of this is a smidgen of unexpected sibling rivalry over Mary?

[Aeryn13]

Since he had such a rocky relationship with John, maybe Sam expects parents to suck? At least his own. So this is a known quantity. I think it is a general directive from the show these days, though, that Sam is understanding of everything whereas Dean is wrongly emotional. I believe it is supposed to convey a very simplistic picture of the characters but they seem to have forgotten that this is a TV-show. Even "emotionless" fictional characters usually somehow experience and display multitudes of emotions.

So while I`m not happy with trying to paint Dean`s normal reactions as somehow wrong or immature, even I have to say having Sam have not (m)any passionate, especially negative, reactions anymore undermines the character. There is being a saint and there is being in a waking coma. The character hasn`t started out like this, he was plenty passionate when the show started, nor was he like that for large swaths of the show. I just find it a weird Dabb-thing. Seems like being his favourite and non-favourite leads to shitty outcomes in different ways.

[rue721]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Sam may be trying to fake it til he makes it but I thought he was becoming more sympathetic to Dean's POV in the Asa Fox episode. I felt like whilst he was sideeying Dean for his anger with Mary,  I thought he wasn't 100% thrilled with Mary in the moment either, but he couldn't fully go against her either. I mean maybe some of this is a smidgen of unexpected sibling rivalry over Mary?

I'm getting the sense that Sam is basically in wait-and-see mode right now. Dean and Mary's issues with each other are out of his hands. So he's just trying to be patient, I guess.

Also, IMO Sam has never seemed all that in touch with himself and his own feelings. He compartmentalizes, as a character trait, and that's what I think he's doing now. I don't think he's "zen," I think he's just got his feelings packed away. IMO that's also why, when his feelings do come out, they're often so strong and so misdirected. IMO he's like a simmering pot that looks completely fine -- until it boils over and the hot water explodes out and spills all over anything and everything nearby.

I agree with @DittyDotDot that, for the time being, he's probably just going to keep sublimating his feelings into obsessions or freak outs that have nothing directly to do with Mary. That's what was going on when he lost it with Magda's mother IMO. I would actually be surprised if he directed negative feelings at Mary at really any point, because I just can't imagine him being comfortable enough with her to do that. But time will tell.

In that same vein, though -- I could also understand why (in theory) Sam would be feeling frustrated with and even resentful of Dean for not being more accepting and welcoming toward Mary. If Dean's issues with Mary drive her away, that will drive her away from BOTH of them. Dean might be having trouble with the reality of having Mary back (regardless of his reasons for that), but Sam probably wants to take whatever he can get. It would be pretty understandable (IMO) for him to be afraid that Dean's issues with Mary will blow his own chance at knowing her or having a relationship with her. In practice, I don't really get the sense that that's on Sam's mind...but if it were, IMO that could be a reason for why he apparently feels driven to play mediator.

[catrox14]

15 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

And if people are just upset because they think Sam is 'calling Dean out on it' or 'correcting' him - then they should also remember that Sam never had the same nurturing mother experiences growing up at all, so it's not the same for him.  It makes sense to me if Sam doesn't understand Dean's reaction to Mary not being there as I think they both should have different expectations.  Maybe, being the older and wiser one, Dean understands that also and that's why he let Sam's comment slide by.

Along those lines, I do wonder if it's forgotten that Sam did have a quasi-mother figure in Dean even when Dean was just a kid himself.  Dean filled the more or less traditional mother/caregiver role in ways that John didn't and not even stints with Pastor Jim, or Bobby or Sully did.  He made Sam spaghettios,cereal, 100 different versions mac & cheese including with marshmallow* and in their adult lives burgers and chili etc. Dean has tended to Sam's injuries since they were kids and even to the point of literally selling his own soul and letting an angel in to save Sam's life. Dean tried to be a nurturer in his own way throughout Sam's childhood to teen years to varying degrees of success or failure, but the difference is that Dean was mostly always there for Sam minus the stint in the boys home and I guess the Sully episode.

I dunno. If Sam is truly zen about the whole thing maybe it's because Sam was protected as much as possible as a kid (given the context of their ridiculous and dangerous lives) after Mary died, and then that was doubled down on by Dean after the Shtriga incident when they were both children.

4 minutes ago, rue721 said:

In that same vein, though -- I could also understand why (in theory) Sam would be feeling frustrated with and even resentful of Dean for not being more accepting and welcoming toward Mary. If Dean's issues with Mary drive her away, that will drive her away from BOTH of them. Dean might be having trouble with the reality of having Mary back (regardless of his reasons for that), but Sam probably wants to take whatever he can get. It would be pretty understandable (IMO) for him to be afraid that Dean's issues with Mary will blow his own chance at knowing her or having a relationship with her. In practice, I don't really get the sense that that's on Sam's mind...but if it were, IMO that could be a reason for why he apparently feels driven to play mediator.

 

Mary chose to leave of her own accord. Dean didn't want her to go so I' m not really sure where that idea is coming from. But playing devil's advocate with the notion that Dean is somehow responsible for Mary not coming back to the bunker, Sam is still a grown adult who can have a relationship with Mary even if Dean doesn't.  He doesn't have to get Dean's approval to be friendly with Mary.  But I can't even adequately make a devil's advocate case here because Dean has literally done nothing to discourage Mary from returning to the bunker and live with them and hunt etc.  So I guess color me shocked that this is even a theory at this point.

 

*interesting that Sully made nachos with marshmallow to let him know that he was around.

[MysteryGuest]

I honestly thought that both brothers had pretty much made peace with Mary and her need to "find herself" after the Asa Fox episode.  She said she'd come home, and I really think they're both ok at this point.  Dean is going to worry because, hello...he's Dean, but I don't think they're agonizing over it anymore.  

I'm guessing this was the plan all along with bringing her back.  She's going to be in some episodes, but not all, and when they make mention of her, she'll be off on some hunt.  The way these writers work, we may not ever see the actual scenes where she moves back to the bunker, if that even happens.

[MrSmith]

On 2/3/2017 at 8:40 AM, AuntTora said:

If they lost their wings why were wings burned onto the ground when they died? I'm with MysteryGuest; I just haven't been feeling it this year, not sure why.

If you noticed, the wings weren't full of feathers like they were in the early episodes after angels were first introduced. They looked skeletal and not at all useful. So, it's not that they anatomically have no wings. Rather, their wings are damaged and useless.

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I honestly thought that both brothers had pretty much made peace with Mary and her need to "find herself" after the Asa Fox episode.  She said she'd come home, and I really think they're both ok at this point.  Dean is going to worry because, hello...he's Dean, but I don't think they're agonizing over it anymore

I was thinking this as well, which is why Sam's comment at the beginning of this episode was so strange to me.

Quote

Dean : I said we could come help, and she said, “Don't bother”" Apparently, she's “got it”"

Sam: [ Chuckles ] Then she's probably got it.

Dean: Yeah. Mom's good. I just think she jumped back into this a little quick, don't you?

Sam: I don't think we have the kind of mom who's gonna stay home and make us chicken soup for dinner, you know?

Read more at: http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=105&t=30847

If it's short-hand for Mary is a hunter, I just don't get why would Yockey frame it around Sam saying Mary isn't going to stay home and cook and punctuating it with the "you know" which is very much a Sam line that is typically said by Sam when Sam kind of certain in his opinions and wanting agreement, whether he's right or wrong. The problem for me is that Dean doesn't need to be lectured or reminded that Mary is a hunter. It's also inconsistent with Dean saying in the Foundry episode that Mary just needs time to get back into hunting and it ignores that Mary was off hunting. So that is giving me some whiplash too. 

It just seems purposeful but I can't figure out the purpose for it's existence. It's either there to be clunky exposition for new viewers, or it's driving a narrative for Mary, Dean or Sam. It just doesn't make sense if that issue is being resolved. Feels like a table setter for more division between Mary, Dean and Sam.

Edited February 7, 2017 by catrox14

[auntvi]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Along those lines, I do wonder if it's forgotten that Sam did have a quasi-mother figure in Dean even when Dean was just a kid himself.

IMHO I don't think Dean is a quasi-parental figure for Sam; he was too young and neglected himself to be a father, much less mother to Sam. Sam has never thought of him as a parent, but as an older brother. And now they're both grown up - kinda.

edit: Perhaps the writers want to make sure we know Mary is not a stay at home mom, and that's why the cooking/chicken soup keeps being brought up.

Edited February 7, 2017 by auntvi

[catrox14]

45 minutes ago, auntvi said:

IMHO I don't think Dean is a quasi-parental figure for Sam; he was too young and neglected himself to be a father, much less mother to Sam. Sam has never thought of him as a parent, but as an older brother. And now they're both grown up - kinda.

. Sure, Dean didn't have legal authority, which I never  asserted, but John made Dean responsible for Sams welfare when  John left the for days or weeks at a time at minimum when Dean was 9 if not before. Dean himself was also  neglected by John  and yet he was given the responsibility to take care of Sam by John.

I never said that Sam thought if him that way, but that doesn't change  that in practice that is what Dean was doing. I guess I don'tunderstand where the issue is. Call it whatever you want,  but it doesn't materially change that Dean did help raise Sam and that he was Sams caregiver much of the time.

Edited February 7, 2017 by catrox14

[auntvi]

Okay. Then I'm confused. I thought you were saying that Dean being a "quasi" parent had something to do with Sam's comments to him about Mary not being a cook.

[rue721]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Mary chose to leave of her own accord. Dean didn't want her to go so I' m not really sure where that idea is coming from. But playing devil's advocate with the notion that Dean is somehow responsible for Mary not coming back to the bunker, Sam is still a grown adult who can have a relationship with Mary even if Dean doesn't.  He doesn't have to get Dean's approval to be friendly with Mary.  But I can't even adequately make a devil's advocate case here because Dean has literally done nothing to discourage Mary from returning to the bunker and live with them and hunt etc.  So I guess color me shocked that this is even a theory at this point.

Mary's decisions are ultimately up to her, but Sam and Dean can make it either easier or harder for her to come back. God forbid they make it too hard and they never actually get to have a relationship with her, right? IMO they both want a relationship with her, so they're both trying to make it easy for her to come back to them. They're keeping the door open by keeping in touch with her, etc.

But Dean isn't approaching her as gingerly as Sam is. Dean is willing to express his feelings to her, even open up to her a fair amount, and he's willing to ask her for things that he wants/needs out of the relationship (like being able to call her mom). Sam doesn't seem so willing to do those things. I think that that's because he's more anxious about blowing his shot with her than Dean is. Maybe Dean just trusts her more altogether.

Sam is also the person who brought an armful of "presents" when he went to talk to Mary for the first time. He's been trying to minimize or smooth over the issues that Mary and Dean are having with each other. He's not making demands of Mary or really making her even deal with his feelings at all. IMO Sam is being very careful not to scare Mary off or rock the boat. That's not the "right" or "wrong" way to handle things IMO, it's just what he's doing because he's anxious. Like I said, I think he's in the state of mind where he just wants to take whatever he can get from her.

If he's anxious that he'll blow things by demanding too much or by overwhelming Mary with his feelings/needs/expectations, I can see him being pretty uncomfortable with Dean demanding anything at all of her or being so expressive. What Dean wants from Mary is pretty reasonable, and I'm actually surprised/impressed by how open he's been with her from the start. But IMO it wouldn't be shocking for Sam to be paranoid about scaring her off, and overly cautious about his -- and Dean's -- interactions with her because of that.

Also, I do think that Sam and Dean are somewhat of a package deal when it comes to Mary. She left them BOTH when she left. And, most importantly, I would think that Sam and Dean each also want the other to have a relationship with her, too. I don't think that either would be happy if they were on good terms with her but she and their brother were estranged.

YMMV with all this. I also don't think that Sam has been expressing much resentment or frustration, I'm just saying that if some of his behavior edges in that direction (like if he's harping on Dean needing to accept Mary, or trying a bit too hard to mediate between Dean and Mary) then that's the place I would guess it would be coming from.

Personally, if I were in Sam's shoes, I would be INCREDIBLY anxious about treating Mary "correctly" and trying to figure out what that would even mean, and would probably be downright avoiding her as a result. Like, if I were in Sam's shoes, she probably wouldn't even have gotten so much as a text from me this entire time because I'd be too scared of saying the wrong thing to say anything at all. I'd probably also meanwhile be obsessively reading every novel and watching every TV show and movie in existence with a storyline about mother-son bonding, as a way of avoiding thinking about Mary while fixating on her. ;) But Sam and Dean both seem pretty confident and down to earth and like they aren't going into that kind of anxiety spiral, so they're both doing awesome IMO ;)

[bethy]

What I think is so interesting about Sam's and Dean's relationships with Mary is how different the relationships are based on whether she's actually around. When Mary is there, Sam is tactile, connecting - rushing to her and hugging her when she showed up to rescue them (In my mind, I could almost hear, "Mommy!" :)), putting an arm around her as they walked to the car after the Asa Fox thing, bringing her tea and the journal - but when she's not there, it seems like Sam's counting on Dean to communicate with her and keep in touch. With Dean, it's the opposite - when she's there, he's stiff and standoffish, when she's not there, he's texting, asking if he can call her "Mom," playing Words with Friends. 

I'm not sure what the implications of that are, but I find it fascinating. And I can't figure out if the writers are doing it intentionally or not. :)

[MysteryGuest]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

it just seems purposeful but I can't figure out the purpose for it's existence.

I'm pretty much chalking it up to clunky dialogue rather than something more serious.  Dean totally took Sam's comment in stride, so it wasn't like some of Sam's comments before, when Dean was really struggling with Mary's leaving.  He talks to her all the time, plays games with her over the phone...I honestly think he's cool with it, at least for the time being.  I'm sure we'll have more drama down the road.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

Personally, if I were in Sam's shoes, I would be INCREDIBLY anxious about treating Mary "correctly" and trying to figure out what that would even mean, and would probably be downright avoiding her as a result. Like, if I were in Sam's shoes, she probably wouldn't even have gotten so much as a text from me this entire time because I'd be too scared of saying the wrong thing to say anything at all.

I agree, and I think this goes along with what I was mentioning above... that no message from Mary is maybe better than a message that says "things are going great here on the road, probably won't be coming back." or something along those lines (no news is good news). So I can see those two things together definitely informing Sam not contacting Mary... Just conjecture, but maybe in Sam's mind there are likely too many ways that could go wrong.

And then there's further pressure, because I agree that Sam and Dean are a package deal. I can imagine the guilt Sam would feel if he said something wrong - or even thought he said something wrong - to chase Mary away and then had to see how devastated Dean would be by that. I'm betting he wouldn't think a "sorry" would cover it, and Sam especially doesn't want to lose Dean right now.

So potential landmines everywhere and Sam seems to be taking the standing still approach to avoid setting any off. Not necessarily the best tactic for moving forward, but I understand it.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

God forbid they make it too hard and they never actually get to have a relationship with her, right? IMO they both want a relationship with her, so they're both trying to make it easy for her to come back to them. They're keeping the door open by keeping in touch with her, etc

Thus far short of begging her to not leave in the first place or to come back, what more could they do to make her feel welcome? There is an open door for her to come back.  And she is choosing not. Dean can be angry with her for leaving and staying away but he didn't make her feel unwelcome or unloved before she made her decision IMO.

She was just as awkward with them as they were with her and she wasn't there for 5 freaking minutes before she decided she couldn't handle looking at her own children's faces.  As soon as they were rescued she went to Atlanta and was having secret meetings with the BMoL. I don't get the impression that she is intending to return to the bunker long term but is choosing to stay away.

I guess I just can't put the onus on the boys for Mary's distance.

Edited February 7, 2017 by catrox14

[Partly]

One of the things that I really loved about this episode was that Lily's backstory mirrored almost every hunter's backstory ever: Normal person encounters the Supernatural being who terrorizes them/kills their loved one(s), driving that person to become a hunter in order to get revenge or protect others.  In many ways, angels are just another supernatural menace to humans in the Supernatural universe.  It really explains the fear angels have of Nephilim -- after all, a Nephilim would be a being whose power would rival that of angels, but whose allegiance could be to humans.  In many ways, angels are at the top of the supernatural food chain; a Nephilim would change all that.  For that matter, so did human/demon Jesse Turner. Cas said he could vanquish all the angels in Heaven with a single word.  While that much power could be used against humanity, I think the average angel is motivated by self-interest much more than concern for humanity.  

I also thought it was interesting how often it was stressed that Lily wasn't a threat to humans.  Although most hunters are driven by revenge, protecting humans from the supernatural is the number one job of hunters.  Hunters just don't kill humans -- not matter how evil they may be.  The hunters didn't kill Bucky even after they found out what he did to Asa.  Look at how horrified everyone was when Dean, under the influence of the MoC, killed Randy and the lowlifes that had taken Claire --  the thought that he may not have killed them in self-defense was horrifying, no matter how richly they may have deserved to die.  After all, if they would have been supernatural creatures, there would have been no question that Dean should have killed them.  But hunters don't kill people.

Which means that once the actions of the BMoLs comes to light, there's no way anyone will work with them.  While the killing of all supernatural creatures, no matter what could possibly (perhaps) justified, there's no way American hunters are going to stand by and let them kill humans.  

[Geordiegirl1967]

Hi there. Newbie here (in search of a home once IMDb closes down its message board in a couple of weeks ☹️). I hope to get to know you all. I've read this thread and your discussion has been really interesting.

Just thought I'd belatedly contribute my thoughts on this ep.

It's a tricky one. I quite enjoyed it on one level, yet it left me a bit cold. I've found that about a lot of the eps this season. They're ok, but something is missing. They don't have the emotional heft of previous seasons, and the bond between the brothers - always such a huge part of what makes SPN special - has been seriously underused.

But to this ep in particular. 

I liked;

+ Lily Sunder and her backstory. I know her performance hasn't gone down well with some but I liked her character. Would be good to see her again.

+ Sam's talk with Lily. Good scene, well acted. Particularly Sam's scared face when she told him Dean was in danger 

+ how Sam rushed to help Dean and ran over to him when he saw he was hurt (this is what passes for a brotherly bonding moment this season - just crumbs really)

I didn't like;

- all the inconsistencies in the angel lore. I have a high tolerance for this kind of dramatic licence usually but this ep stretched it past my limits. So angels almost never went to earth pre apocalypse, so wouldn't need human vessels, yet they all kept the same vessels for 100 years? One minute angels cam smite anyone in the room or flick people around like swatting flies and the next minute they're fist fighting humans? Cas has all his powers except his wings, and can resurrect people, but is seriously weakened by healing a cut? Cas knew instantly when LOTUS got his girl pregnant that a nephalim had been created, and knew he was in the presence of one when metatron was tricking him, yet he couldn't tell the little girl was human? Hmm

- they made Cas look weak / useless. I have not been a huge fan of the character in recent years. I think they ran out of ideas of what to do with him in s7. But he's not an idiot. 

- Dean not speaking to him was silly. He and Sam have both made far sillier decisions. Dean killed Death and that seems to have gone ok so far. To me this was just manufactured to create a funny scene in the car.

- Dean not using the banishing spell. Cas was a bit tired after the healing but I didn't find it credible that Dean would believe he wouldn't survive. 

- Lily's incredibly distracting eyebrow. It was sticking up above her eyepatch so much that it looked an inch higher than her other one. I couldn't stop looking at it.

I seem to have more negatives than positives, though I did quite enjoy it. It was ok.

I'm looking forward to this weeks ep. Sounds like it might have more substance. Fingers crossed. 

Edited February 8, 2017 by Geordiegirl1967

[MysteryGuest]

46 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Cas knew instantly when LOTUS got his girl pregnant that a nephalim had been created, and knew he was in the presence of one when metatron was tricking him, yet he couldn't tell the little girl was human?

I wondered this exact same thing.  Is there only an alarm sounded upon conception?  Inconsistencies seem to be the name of the game this season.

[Geordiegirl1967]

4 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I wondered this exact same thing.  Is there only an alarm sounded upon conception?  Inconsistencies seem to be the name of the game this season.

If that was true wouldn't Cas have known that he hadn't heard one when May was conceived? She was only about 7 or 8 and nephilim are extremely rare, even more so at a time when angels didnt go to earth, so if Cas hadn't heard an alarm recently surely he would know she couldn't be one?

Lots of logic fails in this ep.

[catrox14]

My headcanon is that Cas was trusting Ishim as the leader of the group to be telling the truth about a nephilim.  Otherwise I got nuthin'

[PAForrest]

Dipping a newbie toe into the fray, I'll say I liked this episode a little more than I thought I would, but that's not saying much this season as I think the writing quality has simply plummeted to new subterranean depths, and I'm not convinced Dabb has a handle on this showrunning thing at all.

My biggest problem with any episode anymore is how the Winchesters are continuing to play guest-stars on their own series week after week after week. Though at least they were along for the ride this time, but nothing is ever about them, and I honestly believe the only Winchester Dabb likes or is interested in is Mary - or, at least, this version of Mary that he's trying to sell.

I do think it's ridiculous that there will be all these cosmic repercussions for killing the most dull annoying reaper in the history of reapers, yet there remains zero fall-out from Dean killing the Big Kahuna - Death himself. And I understand the justification about breaking a deal, but Dean also broke a deal with Death by killing him and not Sam, so that excuse actually doesn't fly. Deals were broken in both cases, and Death is a far bigger fish than Billie, who in the grand scheme of things is a big fat nothing.

Otherwise, I thought Lily's backstory was interesting enough, and that Witt was decent enough in the role.  OTOH, I'm not really buying that any human - especially one from over a century ago - would be studying angels as a known commodity, not to mention Enochian that I thought was supposed to be a language completely unknown to humans. A lot of hand-waving and eye-squinting has to happen to believe in Lily.

I love seeing Ian Tracey in anything, though it was always obvious he was the bad guy. Of course, he plays a lot of bad guys.

I do appreciate it when some attention is paid to the friendship between Dean and Castiel, and I thought it was obvious that Dean would hesitate using the banishing spell if he wasn't sure Cas would survive, especially given the schizophrenic portrayal of Castiel's powers, or lack thereof, from week to week. But it was completely in line with the way Dean reacts when his loved ones are in potential danger.

I can't be paid enough to care about the constantly regurgitated Lucifer or his silly offspring, but this is clearly one of Dabb's pet projects that isn't going anywhere.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

14 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I guess I just can't put the onus on the boys for Mary's distance.

I haven't gotten the impression that anyone is doing that.

12 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

- Lily's incredibly distracting eyebrow. It was sticking up above her eyepatch so much that it looked an inch higher than her other one. I couldn't stop looking at it.

Lol!  I liked Lily's character - but I knew there was something a bit off - this must have been it!  Thanks for the laugh. :)

1 hour ago, PAForrest said:

OTOH, I'm not really buying that any human - especially one from over a century ago - would be studying angels as a known commodity, not to mention Enochian that I thought was supposed to be a language completely unknown to humans. A lot of hand-waving and eye-squinting has to happen to believe in Lily.

Oh, I don't know.  I think it would have been rare - especially as the MoL weren't even around there, I don't think.  But I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility either.  (King Solomon was rumored to have commanded demons).  I don't remember if it was mentioned what 'religion' Lily may have been brought up in, but that very well could have influenced her desire to study angels.  And if she dug deep enough, there's probably a lot to interpolate from the more well-known myths about them.  Did Isham teach her Enochian?  Or did she learn that before she summoned him?  I can't remember.  If it was Isham, that would explain how she knew it.  She might have found a spell to summon an angel that didn't have to be in Enochian.  

[bearcatfan]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

My headcanon is that Cas was trusting Ishim as the leader of the group to be telling the truth about a nephilim.  Otherwise I got nuthin'

Maybe Cas could feel the Lucifer spawn because it was Lucifer, and therefore more powerful, but he doesn't get it with a run of the mill angel spawn? Or close proximity makes a difference?

[Demented Daisy]

Castiel didn't recognize the nephilim in Clip Show.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, bearcatfan said:

Maybe Cas could feel the Lucifer spawn because it was Lucifer, and therefore more powerful, but he doesn't get it with a run of the mill angel spawn?

I'll go with that. 

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, bearcatfan said:

Maybe Cas could feel the Lucifer spawn because it was Lucifer, and therefore more powerful, but he doesn't get it with a run of the mill angel spawn? Or close proximity makes a difference?

These were my thinking too. I'm guessing that if any of the angels had actually been in the presence of the girl, they may have figured it out. That's probably one of many reasons why Ishim wanted them to stay outside and he would handle the rest himself. Besides him wanting to have the satisfaction of seeing Lily's face when he did the deed and not wanting her to out him to the other angels, of course.

[bearcatfan]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

These were my thinking too. I'm guessing that if any of the angels had actually been in the presence of the girl, they may have figured it out. That's probably one of many reasons why Ishim wanted them to stay outside and he would handle the rest himself. Besides him wanting to have the satisfaction of seeing Lily's face when he did the deed and not wanting her to out him to the other angels, of course.

That makes sense. I'll go with catrox theory that Cas trusted Ishim. Now, Cas trusts Sam and Dean over an angel but 100 years ago he wouldn't have thought that the angel was lying.

[mertensia]

On 2/3/2017 at 7:23 PM, bethy said:

 

So does Mary only call Dean? Why is Sam having to ask his brother if they've heard from her? 

My take on this is Mary and Sam know they have a good relationship so Sam pushes the one who has problems-Dean-to communicate to keep them in contact with each other.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

My take on this is Mary and Sam know they have a good relationship so Sam pushes the one who has problems-Dean-to communicate to keep them in contact with each other.

We`ve seen Dean keep in contact plenty, texting playing words with friends, yet nothing from Sam so I can`t really go with that. And I wouldn`t say it is a good relationship per se so much as Sam doesn`t say or do anything that rocks the boat with Mary. Hasn`t made her shown any more interest in him than in Dean. They are both at a big fat zero at this point. 

[catrox14]

Dean has been pretty clear with his issues with Mary. He's not talking about it 24/7 w Sam but he communicated pretty clearly when he wouldn't hug Mary when she left that he was upset. He reiterated his upset to Sam in American Nightmare and he had already been texting with Mary unbeknownst to Sam at that moment which was before Sam advised him to give her space.  Dean was still angry with her and told her straight up to her face why he was pissed in the Asa Fox episode. Since then he has continued texting and playing Words With Friends. That sure seems like a lot of attempts at communicating.