Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

[benteen]

On ‎12‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 5:29 PM, secnarf said:

Thank you (or autocorrect!) for the laugh!

I don't need to see what they are fighting for, nor do I think that plot did a good job showing it. I can inherently appreciate that a state of peace is preferable to a state of war. If that is what they were trying to show, then I don't think it was time well-spent.

Every time we were shown Finn/Rose's storyline, I was wondering what was happening elsewhere. I felt like those scenes interrupted the flow/momentum of the rest of the story, without adding anything.

I also disliked Rose, which could be colouring my opinion. I was actually rooting for her to kamikaze into the bomber at the end, instead of Finn. Then, when she stopped Finn, I was expecting her injuries to be fatal. She came off as kind of nuts in her first scene with Finn, and I don't think she ever really recovered from that. I wasn't invested in her. Couple that with a storyline that does not have an obvious relevance to the rest of the story, and I just wasn't interested.

Oof...that was definitely autocorrect!

I thought Rose was alright but the movie tried too hard to want us to like her.

[benteen]

Quote

This is also another missed moment for Rose because Poe is responsible for Rose's sister's death and that link between the two characters is left untouched.

Agreed.  I thought Poe should have felt guilt over this.  He sacrificed so much to destroy one ship and he should have realized the cost of that.

Rey was not romantically desperate with Kylo.  It was definitely emotionally desperate.  She's been lonely her entire life and was looking for someone to connect with on an emotional level.

[ChelseaNH]

6 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

The fight scene does explicitly go through the Kylo "you need a teacher"/Rey kicking his ass instead moment that makes the TLJ interaction so senseless.

Does beating Kylo Ren translate to "Yea, verily, I am an expert wielder of the Force; I will be the leader the Resistance needs"?

Or could it have been "holy CRAP, that was intense, I need to get a handle on this Force business because I can't keep on winging it"?

[Zuleikha]

Neither the sentence that you quoted nor anything anyone else has said argued that Rey beating Kylo Ren translated to "Yea, verily, I am an expert wielder of the Force; I will be the leader the Resistance needs". 

[ChelseaNH]

14 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

The whole point of the end of TFA was that Rey accepted herself as the one who needed to stop Kylo Ren.

So Rey decides it's her job to be the Big Damn Hero.  I was deciding between "I will be the leader the Resistance needs" and "I will be the hero the Resistance needs" -- either way, being the Big Damn Hero means taking on a major role in the Resistance.  Are you saying Rey didn't recognize the ramifications of stepping up to Big Damn Herodom?

And if she's the one who needs to stop Kylo Ren, isn't turning him from the Dark Side a way of stopping him?

[MrsR]

Chewie also came back for Rey and Finn.

Everyone always forgets Chewie.

Sob

Edited January 2, 2018 by MrsR

[Danny Franks]

3 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

So Rey decides it's her job to be the Big Damn Hero.  I was deciding between "I will be the leader the Resistance needs" and "I will be the hero the Resistance needs" -- either way, being the Big Damn Hero means taking on a major role in the Resistance.  Are you saying Rey didn't recognize the ramifications of stepping up to Big Damn Herodom?

And if she's the one who needs to stop Kylo Ren, isn't turning him from the Dark Side a way of stopping him?

I think that the triumvirate of Rey, Finn and Poe will end up leading the Resistance in Episode IX. They all represent different parts of what it takes to be a leader. Poe is the charismatic, decisive hero and military veteran but has a tendency towards cold detachment (in his indifference to the sacrificed lives). Finn is caring and dedicated, and doesn't lose sight of those who risk themselves, but he's not as decisive and is more likely to risk himself than anyone else. And Rey is... well, she's just awesome. She's the symbol of hope and someone who will lead by example, but she's a more remote, closed off figure, and doesn't seem like she would cultivate the same warmth and personal dedication amongst the Resistance, like Finn could. They compensate for each others weaknesses in interesting ways.

I really hope the next movie just puts it all on their shoulders (and it will have to, really, because there are none of the originals left except Chewie, Threepio and Artoo) and explores what it means to lead a movement against the odds. Forget exploring Kylo Ren more. We know who and what he is now.

[Zuleikha]

 Are you saying Rey didn't recognize the ramifications of stepping up to Big Damn Herodom?

I don't think Rey accepting herself as the person to wield the Force and stop Kylo Ren equals Rey viewing herself as accepting the mantle of Big Damn Herodom. Like that is so nonsensical to me and so not what I think TFA did or was trying to do that I don't even know how to have this conversation. I have no idea what your base assumptions are.

And if she's the one who needs to stop Kylo Ren, isn't turning him from the Dark Side a way of stopping him?

Sure, it's a way. Putting poison in a drink and assassinating him would be a way, too. And I think both of those actions are equally out of character for what TFA set up Rey as considering to be methods to stop Kylo Ren. It is possible that TLJ could have shown a story where Rey would have considered turning Kylo Ren from the Dark Side to be a viable method (or heck, it is possible that TLJ could have set up a story where Rey considered assassinating him given that I think TLJ left it as extremely debatable whether Luke's failure was igniting his lightsaber  or backing down from killing Kylo Ren). But for the many reasons that I've stated, I don't think TLJ did successfully show that story.

[raven]

I never felt at the end of TFA that Rey felt it was her mission to beat Kylo Ren.  She already HAD beaten him and left him lying on the ground on a planet that was breaking apart.  She went to find Luke to learn about the using the Force for herself, to find out more about herself and to bring Luke back to the Resistance.  She never even mentions Kylo until Luke catches them with the mind connection; and IMO until Snoke makes that connection, Kylo is the last thing on her mind. 

Well, we see Luke say "where's Han" so I guess Kylo came up but then he's not mentioned or (IMO) thought about until the mind connection.  Though really, Luke should have known about Han - Leia did - even though he cut himself off from the Force or whatever.  Wasn't he using the Force to swing around and go fishing? NM, going off on a tangent!

Again at the end of TLJ Rey has beaten Kylo again - maybe it could be called a draw, but he got knocked out and she managed to escape with the light saber pieces, so I call that a win. Except for Leia, Finn and Poe, no one in the Resistance seems concerned or even knows about Kylo Ren at all, not like the constant presence of Vader in the OT.   Unless Kylo does something to draw Rey out, she's not going to actively seek him like Luke did with Vader.  She has better things to do; the Resistance needs to keep out of the way of the FO while they rebuild and plan.   Eventually she will probably have to take him on again because she's the only one who can but it's not her priority.

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

really hope the next movie just puts it all on their shoulders (and it will have to, really, because there are none of the originals left except Chewie, Threepio and Artoo) and explores what it means to lead a movement against the odds. Forget exploring Kylo Ren more. We know who and what he is now.

I think they are leaning this way; the OT was all about the Jedi legend, the specialness of the Skywalkers and Luke following his family history, while the new trilogy seems to be distancing itself from that.  It is a problem that there was no consensus on the trilogy framework beforehand and Rian Johnson left the door open for Rey to still be a Skywalker/Kenobi/former Jedi student.  I can see Disney and JJ Abrams caving to fan pressure and going that route, though I hope they don't, I think the story has more options and that Rey is better served by being from "nowhere".

[VCRTracking]

27 minutes ago, doram said:

She only left him because a literal earthquake split them apart. Otherwise, she was already hacking him to pieces. 

That scene made me think that TLJ was going to be about Rey struggling against her Dark Side because she knew she had the power to straight up go and murder Kylo and Luke would be holding her back. Heck, I even imagined her clashing with Luke because she concludes that Luke is deliberately protecting Kylo. 

Sort of like a reverse of ROTJ where the Masters were the one asking the young Knight to assassinate family while the Knight was trying to find another way. This time it would be the Knight wanting to assassinate the Master's family while the Master is asking the Knight to find another way.

But why write a story about a Rey being tempted by the Dark Side because of a deadly combination of her immense undisciplined power and a strong sense of self-righteousness.... when you can write a story about Rey being tempted by Kylo's abs?

He doesn't really have abs(or an eight pack as Matt the Radar Technician claimed) He does have a Heston-like chest.

Seriously though I think if anything got Rey to look at Kylo  differently it was his being surprisingly honest and open with her.  She's been lied to twice by other people in these movies. The first time she forgave quickly the second time disappointed her far more. Per the Rashomon homage Luke trying to kill him is the "truth from his point of view"(as Obi-Wan would say). His rage toward him at the end makes that clear.

I do agree with you about their fight in TFA. When Rey was beating Kylo back she was fueled by anger and rage. The novelization makes it more clear she's tapping the Dark Side. So to really beat him again I think she would have to tap into that anger. Like in Return of the Jedi it would take him threatening her loved ones like Vader to do it.

Edited January 3, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Joe]

5 hours ago, doram said:

But why write a story about a Rey being tempted by the Dark Side because of a deadly combination of her immense undisciplined power and a strong sense of self-righteousness.... when you can write a story about Rey being tempted by Kylo's abs?

 

She asked him to put on a top. I don't think she was tempted.

[afterbite]

1 hour ago, Joe said:

6 hours ago, doram said:

But why write a story about a Rey being tempted by the Dark Side because of a deadly combination of her immense undisciplined power and a strong sense of self-righteousness.... when you can write a story about Rey being tempted by Kylo's abs?

 

She asked him to put on a top. I don't think she was tempted.

I read in some article linked here that the motivation for that scene was that Johnson wanted people to realize that Rey and Kylo could really see each other instead of it all being some sort of psychic connection. (Hence she asks him to put on his shirt and we can see that she can actually see him because why would she ask that if it was just all a mind-to-mind connection.) I won't claim that there wasn't also any subtext intended, because I don't know that we can know, but if that was the primary driving force, it's kind of hilarious that something done primarily in service of establishing that their connection was visual has also resulted in all this talk of possible romantic or sexual connections.

I think it's clunky either way. It's hard for me to separate whether my distaste for the scene surpasses my overall distaste for the storyline, though I do remember vaguely wondering why we'd suddenly delved into Victorian shenanigans at the time. I am left increasingly baffled that the trilogy was apparently left without an overarching narrative prior to its beginning. Why would you have a billion dollar property and turn it into one of those round robin writing experiments where one author writes part, leaves it on a cliffhanger, and another comes in to joyfully subvert everything that was previously done? Those are fun when it's small scale crack fiction. Less fun when they're pop culture defining movie franchises beloved by 3 generations.

Edited January 3, 2018 by afterbite
for want of an apostrophe

[Zuleikha]

But why write a story about a Rey being tempted by the Dark Side because of a deadly combination of her immense undisciplined power and a strong sense of self-righteousness.... when you can write a story about Rey being tempted by Kylo's abs?

That was definitely one direction I thought the story may go, and while I was pretty open to whatever, I think that would have been far better than what we got. I also think we would have gotten a lot of complaints about that being predictable, but the flip side of predictable is "coherent". A good story SHOULD be a little predictable because the start should set up the middle and the end.

It remains so odd to me that Johnson had Rey dive into the Dark Side cave--deliberately echoing Dagobah--and yet, it meant nothing for Rey as a person or a Force wielder. 

She asked him to put on a top. I don't think she was tempted.

Ridley's delivery is that of someone who is tempted and doesn't want to be. (FWIW, I read either the same article you did or a similar one, and I  took Johnson as being more jokey in his explanation.)

Seriously though I think if anything got Rey to look at Kylo  differently it was his being surprisingly honest and open with her.

I don't think he was. He tells her semi-truthful things in a manipulative way. But he never talks about--or admits to--his actions with Snoke that predated the moment with Luke. He also doesn't talk about why he slaughtered the other students or what he was doing with the ones he didn't kill (implied to be his Knights of Ren). 

[piequinn35]

I didn't understand why the other reviews said it was crap, my husband and I watched it last night and we really liked it.

Without the Falcon, everybody would be dead :P

[VCRTracking]

On 1/3/2018 at 0:13 PM, Zuleikha said:

I don't think he was. He tells her semi-truthful things in a manipulative way. But he never talks about--or admits to--his actions with Snoke that predated the moment with Luke. He also doesn't talk about why he slaughtered the other students or what he was doing with the ones he didn't kill (implied to be his Knights of Ren).

The other students thought Ben killed Luke and so they fought him but others probably agreed and joined him.

By now there are probably hundreds of takes online on the movie both pro and con, Obviously I'm going to agree with the positive ones and disagree with the negative and people are going to do vice versa. This movie will probably be passionately debated for a long time.

Edited January 5, 2018 by VCRTracking

[scarynikki12]

3 hours ago, piequinn35 said:

Without the Falcon, everybody would be dead :P

The true hero of the stories. 

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

The other students thought Ben killed Luke and so they fought him but others probably agreed and joined him.

By now there are probably hundreds of takes online on the movie both pro and con, Obviously I'm going to agree with the positive ones and disagree with the negative and people are going to do vice versa. This movie will probably be passionately debated for a long time.

Whatever happened to the Knights of Ren? They're mentioned in TFA (shown in the vision), mentioned again in TLJ but, never seen. Did Kylo or Snoke kill them? Did the run away from the First Order? Are they still around and will show up in Episode IX?

[SimoneS]

On 1/3/2018 at 3:13 PM, Zuleikha said:

Ridley's delivery is that of someone who is tempted and doesn't want to be. (FWIW, I read either the same article you did or a similar one, and I  took Johnson as being more jokey in his explanation.)

I don't agree with this at all. I didn't get any sexual tension, attraction, or temptation from Rey in that scene. She seems put off by his lack of a shirt, but that is all. Besides Kylo isn't close to being sexy evil. He isn't the littlest bit hot and he has a weird shaped chest with no abs.

[VCRTracking]

On 1/3/2018 at 8:14 AM, afterbite said:

Why would you have a billion dollar property and turn it into one of those round robin writing experiments where one author writes part, leaves it on a cliffhanger, and another comes in to joyfully subvert everything that was previously done? Those are fun when it's small scale crack fiction. Less fun when they're pop culture defining movie franchises beloved by 3 generations.

With few exceptions this is how movies have always been made. When they make a movie they don't have a sequel planned(and when they do the movie usually tanks). If it becomes a hit then they write another one and if that becomes a hit they write another until they run out of juice. Sometimes they have the original writer back for the sequels but more often times they don't.

I also don't agree TLJ subverts everything previously done. Luke has always been a flawed character from the first movie to Empire. Return of the Jedi was his finest moment but even then he had a momentary lapse. He was never an infallable saint.

Producer Harve Bennett and director Nicholas Meyers weren't even big Star Trek fans but the one they made(without any involvement from creator Gene Roddenberry) Star Trek II The Wrath of Khan is considered the best of the series. That's a movie that completely ignores everything about the first movie. The Rocky series: Each movie has a happy ending and then the next movie begins by completely tearing it down so Rocky has to start back on the bottom and work his way back again.

Edited January 6, 2018 by VCRTracking

[VCRTracking]

14 minutes ago, doram said:

Star Wars being one of those few exceptions.

But even then Lucas had a very, very vague outline of the original trilogy when he started. Killing Obi-Wan halfway through the first movie was a late decision(which irked Alec Guinness) so he came up with Yoda to train Luke in Empire. The Emperor was just a bureaucrat and not a Force user. Darth Vader and Luke's father were separate people in the first draft of Empire by Leigh Brackett. Lucas didn't come up with Vader being the father until after. So he definitely had no idea what the climax of the trilogy was going to be in 1977. Another detail in Brackett's script Luke had a long lost twin sister but it definitely wasn't Leia. Also Han wasn't frozen in carbonite at the end. It was something done because Harrison Ford was only signed to two movies.

If people really care that much about Snoke's origin JJ can easily have a flashback in Episode IX. Same with Rey's parents.

Edited January 6, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Zuleikha]

The issue with Snoke isn't needing a flashback to his origin. It's needing some explanation for where the heck this powerful Force user came from and how the heck he got into the position he got into, particularly in terms of his influence on Kylo Ren. NO ONE gives a crap about Snoke. We're not sitting here begging or praying for a Snoke standalone. But the story right now is confusing as heck and incoherent without at least some exposition about the who/what/where/when/why of Snoke-Kylo Ren's relationship as well as what Snoke taught Kylo Ren about the Force.

Also, specific details changing isn't the same thing as not having a general outline for the whole story. My understanding is that A New Hope was designed to be standalone (and totally works that way), but Lucas certainly knew that the trilogy was going to tell the story of Luke Skywalker's development into a powerful Jedi who would defeat Darth Vader and lead the Rebellion to victory over the Empire. Empire Strikes Back is a setback, but it's still clear what the events in it have to do with the overall story. Also, Lucas oversaw all of them and so the changes were made in the context of his intentions for the story. That's why they all fit so well.

With The Last Jedi, I am completely unclear what overall story these events actually fit into and I also don't think Rian Johnson had any idea. IMHO, he comes across as treating The Last Jedi as a functional standalone in his interviews. That's not exactly on him--if he wasn't given a story to fit with, he can't really do anything different. But it's also hardly surprising that a lot of people wouldn't be satisfied with that. 

[VCRTracking]

1 minute ago, Zuleikha said:

The issue with Snoke isn't needing a flashback to his origin. It's needing some explanation for where the heck this powerful Force user came from and how the heck he got into the position he got into, particularly in terms of his influence on Kylo Ren. NO ONE gives a crap about Snoke. We're not sitting here begging or praying for a Snoke standalone. But the story right now is confusing as heck and incoherent without at least some exposition about the who/what/where/when/why of Snoke-Kylo Ren's relationship as well as what Snoke taught Kylo Ren about the Force.

Which could be easily handled in flashbacks in the next one. That's where revelations usually happen in a movie. In the third act.

 

2 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

Also, specific details changing isn't the same thing as not having a general outline for the whole story. My understanding is that A New Hope was designed to be standalone (and totally works that way), but Lucas certainly knew that the trilogy was going to tell the story of Luke Skywalker's development into a powerful Jedi who would defeat Darth Vader and lead the Rebellion to victory over the Empire. Empire Strikes Back is a setback, but it's still clear what the events in it have to do with the overall story. Also, Lucas oversaw all of them and so the changes were made in the context of his intentions for the story. That's why they all fit so well.

And the general outline was vague enough where he wasn't locked into details and he could change his mind and develop new ideas and characters. It was as basic: movie 1: Introduce Luke Skywalker. 2: Luke faces Vader; Vader wins. 3: Luke faces Vader again; Luke wins.  He still just made up everything as he went along. 

2 minutes ago, doram said:

At this rate it's hard to care about anything in these movies. I don't know if this is the best way to explain it, but it's the best I have: the story changes with each person that tells the tale. There's no continuity, or overall outline. Worse even, there seems to be nothing stopping Director B from retconning whatever he doesn't like/want in Director A's interpretation. So in a sense, it's the worst kind of round-robin because at least a good robin will try to tell one story. Basically, if Johnson isn't able to / or doesn't care to establish continuity with Abrams --- and Abrams is as likely to ret-con anything he wants from Johnson's story... I'm not watching an unfolding a story.  I'm not even watching 2 unfolding stories. I'm watching fan-fiction writers sparring over who gets to stamp their signature biggest on canon. 

This is what happens in comics since the 60s. A writer has a run on a book. He leaves and it's taken over by another writer. That writer has the option to continue what the previous one started or go in a completely new direction.

[Perfect Xero]

44 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

The Rocky series: Each movie has a happy ending and then the next movie begins by completely tearing it down so Rocky has to start back on the bottom and work his way back again.

Tangent: This is really only true of Rocky III, with Rocky getting distracted by his newfound fame and wealth as champion causing him to temporarily lose his hunger as a fighter and his title.

V does tear him down, but isn't really about Rocky working his way back, rather he and his family learning what is really important in life.

II is simply a rematch of his decision loss to Creed. IV is simply Rocky intensely training to take on a very dangerous opponent (who killed his friend in the ring).

[VCRTracking]

12 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

Tangent: This is really only true of Rocky III, with Rocky getting distracted by his newfound fame and wealth as champion causing him to temporarily lose his hunger as a fighter and his title.

V does tear him down, but isn't really about Rocky working his way back, rather he and his family learning what is really important in life.

II is simply a rematch of his decision loss to Creed. IV is simply Rocky intensely training to take on a very dangerous opponent (who killed his friend in the ring).

"Tear down" is the wrong word. I just meant the happy ending of one movie won't last. There's always going to be another challenge, but I like that. It's like life.

[Zuleikha]

Which could be easily handled in flashbacks in the next one. That's where revelations usually happen in a movie. In the third act.

That's not really true, but it's also a continued misunderstanding of the point about Snoke. No one needs a revelation about Snoke. We're looking for the basic exposition that lets him make sense. TLJ kept circling around Kylo Ren's story, and the whole Rashomon bit with the destruction of the Jedi Academy is supposed to be pivotal. But we're being prevented from knowing key information about Ben Solo/Kylo Ren at that point, which also affects our ability to understand Luke's actions or even whether Luke actually failed with Ben in any significant way.

That's crappy storytelling by many people's standards. If you don't care, great. I'm sincerely glad you enjoyed The Last Jedi. I'm also glad round-robin storytelling in which authors just do whatever the heck they want works for you. However, I don't think it should be surprising or controversial that this approach is not going to work for many people.

[VCRTracking]

7 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

That's not really true, but it's also a continued misunderstanding of the point about Snoke. No one needs a revelation about Snoke. We're looking for the basic exposition that lets him make sense. TLJ kept circling around Kylo Ren's story, and the whole Rashomon bit with the destruction of the Jedi Academy is supposed to be pivotal. But we're being prevented from knowing key information about Ben Solo/Kylo Ren at that point, which also affects our ability to understand Luke's actions or even whether Luke actually failed with Ben in any significant way.

It's in the dialogue. Snoke got to Ben when he was young, corrupted him and by the time Luke looked into his heart and saw that he had completely turned.  How did he get to be leader of the First Order? He can throw a person around like a rag doll from another ship!

They were even MORE vague in the original trilogy. We're never told there how or why Anakin turned. Just that he did. How he got injured and turned into a cyborg, what happened to Luke and Leia's mom, how the Jedi were wiped out and the Republic became the Empire. That information was arguably more important yet none of it was in the finished film. We didn't know the whole story until 22 years later in Revenge of the Sith and a lot of fans were dissapointed. They would've preferred not knowing at all. The original trilogy still worked for a lot of people without the backstory.

15 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

That's crappy storytelling by many people's standards. If you don't care, great. I'm sincerely glad you enjoyed The Last Jedi. I'm also glad round-robin storytelling in which authors just do whatever the heck they want works for you. However, I don't think it should be surprising or controversial that this approach is not going to work for many people.

Whether it's a different author or the same doesn't matter to me as long they take the story and the characters in an interesting direction. The approach isn't what's bothering people it's that their fave characters are taken in directions they didn't like. When I hear fans saying "This doesn't make sense!" they really mean "This is not what I wanted!" Sequels will still be different when directors do get to make the sequel: Joss Whedon with Age of Ultron, James Gunn with Guardians 2, and Abrams with Star Trek Into Darkness, they try to bring back as much of the fun from the first movie but they also don't want to do the same thing. They want to make something different and challenging and put the characters through the wringer, but the reaction from some fans is "This sucks! We want it to be like the first movie!"

[VCRTracking]

40 minutes ago, doram said:

Because the OT was not Anakin's story. The OT was Luke's story. We don't even know that Anakin is alive until the end of the 2nd movie. Before then, Vader is a Faceless Evil for Luke to defeat.

The PT was Anakin's story. And in that story, we see his backstory, his rise, his fall, and the fates of the people in that generation. 

The ST is Kylo Ren's story. He is the son of Leia and Han, and the nephew of Luke Skywalker and the only reason we have for what made him Go Evil was that Snoke did unprecedented Jedi juju on his brain (or that Luke made him evil when he tried to kill him).

It's primarily Rey's story even if she's (for now) established that she's not a Skywalker. She's an outsider entering this story and we know what she knows. Her destiny to face and defeat Kylo seems to have started the moment Anakin's lightsaber called to her. From then on their fates became entwined.

40 minutes ago, doram said:

One can just as well say that technical problems with the movie (the lack of continuity in characterization and plotting),

The characterization thing is subjective and has been debated here.

 

40 minutes ago, doram said:

Of the examples you gave, I'm mostly familiar with Star Trek and that isn't a trilogy story like Star Wars. Each movie is a new adventure, a new mission, a new challenge. There's no over-arching story or cliff hanger ending. 

Star Trek II, III, and IV are an unintended trilogy. The story  starts in Star Trek II:The Wrath of Khan continues into Star Trek III: The Search For Spock and is resolved in IV: The Voyage Home. None of it was planned.

 

40 minutes ago, doram said:

the problematic side-lining and portrayal of PoCs

Being in a plot-line that some fans don't care for isn't sidelining.  One can argue Finn playing a supporting role in Rey's would be.

 

40 minutes ago, doram said:

are ignored/defended/down-played by the people (who like the movie) because their fave characters (and not-so-fave characters) are taken in the directions that they want.

Not even "directions they want" they just don't mind them or were outraged by them. Seeing them in TLJ the reaction is "Okay they're not perfect and they make mistakes."

40 minutes ago, doram said:

And when these fans are saying "the movie was great!" they really mean "the movie indulged all my fantasies and bigotry!"

 Finn defeating Phasma really indulged a lot of bigots.

When I say the movie is great I mean "I love that it depicts failure as not something destructive but something you overcome and learn from."

Edited January 6, 2018 by VCRTracking

[VCRTracking]

18 minutes ago, doram said:

Being in a plot that people who commend and people who criticize the movie almost universally agree was superflous?

Do you really think the director intended that? When a substantial amount of screen time almost an insane amount of production design, creature design, costumes,  special effects and casting Benicio Del Toro, filming in Croatia went into something "superfluous"?

 

18 minutes ago, doram said:

What I was stating is that you dismissing complaints from fans who didn't "like" the movie is equivalent to accepting commendation from fans who "liked" the movie. If you're going to assume that fans who are complaining are insincere because their dislike isn't based on technical and problematic issues with the movie but "not getting what they wanted!", then it's just as valid to assume that fans who praise the movie are insincere because their praise isn't based on the movie being objectively good but "they got what they wanted!"

Most complaints I've read was because they're favorite character would never do this or that.

 

18 minutes ago, doram said:

Star Wars is an intended trilogy. The ST is planned to be a trilogy. There is a difference between accidentally stumbling into a trilogy movie and setting out from the start to make a trilogy movie.

I really don't know how it can be said plainer and I have to assume that you're deliberating choosing to misunderstand this.

That if you liked the movie it wouldn't matter if it was planned out or not.

Edited January 6, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Zuleikha]

Quote

t's in the dialogue. Snoke got to Ben when he was young, corrupted him and by the time Luke looked into his heart and saw that he had completely turned.  How did he get to be leader of the First Order? He can throw a person around like a rag doll from another ship!

They were even MORE vague in the original trilogy.

 

Because it didn't MATTER in the original trilogy. This has been explained to you before. The setup of the original trilogy was such that the backstories and motivations of the villains didn't matter to understanding what's going on with the protagonists. The storytelling constraints on a sequel are different from the constraints on an original. With an original, you don't have a canon that you have to mesh with. You don't have characters in whose fates people are invested in. With a sequel you do. So when you have your antagonist be the child of one of the most famous romantic couples in pop culture history, yes, you have a LOT more to explain than when your antagonist is simply generic evil overlord of generic evil empire. And when you have a canon history that establishes the Sith and the Jedi as the two major wielders of the Force, yes, you have to give some explanation for it when you introduce a completely new kind of Force wielder as the major antagonist. There are other types of Force users established in Clone Wars (and I haven't seen Rebels), but they're generally portrayed as lesser than the Sith/Jedi and also Snoke doesn't fit them.

The dialogue given about Snoke is insufficient, again in ways that matter. Because we know nothing about Snoke or how he wields the Force, we don't know whether Snoke getting to young Ben Solo was done as some kind of brainwashing through the Force, through emotional manipulation, or through some combination. And it matters a lot to how we evaluate Kylo, Han, Leia, and Luke. That's the main complaint of those of us disappointed in TLJ. 

Quote

The approach isn't what's bothering people it's that their fave characters are taken in directions they didn't like. When I hear fans saying "This doesn't make sense!" they really mean "This is not what I wanted!"

No, we mean it doesn't make sense. You've basically acknowledged that you see the same flaws; you just don't care. Which is fine! But it's also fine for people to care. No one's wrong. No one's lying.

Also, it is the creator's responsibility to create a story that is satisfying to the audience. If the audience doesn't want what you gave them, you are the one who screwed up. Always. That's how the creator/audience contract works. I hate referencing Joss Whedon because he's such an ass, but s2 of Buffy really is the best example of give them what they need, not what they want. And because he got it right in s2, fans LOVED the Buffy/Angel story even though I guarantee you that NO ONE wanted or expected the Angel/Angelus twist. Had Rian Johnson told a satisfying story that still had Canto Bight, Rey's parents still being junk dealers who sold her, and Snoke getting killed by Kylo's trick, no one would be complaining about those things. But if you're going to try to give the audience what they need instead of what they want, then you damn well better know what they need. (And by the way, it genuinely DOES NOT MAKE SENSE that a girl of the age Rey was shown in the flashback would have no conscious memory of her neglectful-at-best/probably-abusive parents, much less would become so convinced they planned to return for her that she would pass up the opportunity to travel with her surrogate father figure to return to her lonely, crappy situation in Jakku. If she did need to delude herself so strongly, she wouldn't have had so little reaction to either the cave's revelation or to Kylo. That should have been a character changing and defining moment for Rey. Instead, she's the same character that she started the movie as... maybe a teeny bit less naive... maybe--we'll see in the third one.)

Edited January 6, 2018 by Zuleikha

[ainon]

3 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Most complaints I've read was because they're favorite character would never do this or that.

Probably because many of them might be right? These are established characters who already had established character traits. Of course being fictional, those traits can certainly be changed to suit the whim of the storyteller, but this being fiction, there had better be sound reasoning for the character "doing this or that" that no one could've seen coming.

I'd compare it to the Superman of 'Man of Steel'. I don't read comics nor do I actually care one way or the other but Superman is a character whose existence and basic characteristics I've always been aware of. So when a certain incident happened at the end of 'Man of Steel', even I as a casual viewer could say, "Ehhh, Superman wouldn't do that?" I didn't feel compelled to comment about it online, but I sure feel for those fans who are still furious about that particular incident. 

Now, I watched The Last Jedi on opening night and found it entertaining but shallow and riddled with plot issues. I was astounded to discover afterwards that critics were praising it. I watched The Last Jedi a second time. Gorgeous movie, but the second viewing confirmed for me that it was a wasted opportunity. The Last Jedi could have claimed originality if it hadn't started with a title crawl that basically made me think I was in for a retread of 'Empire Strikes Back' and if it actually showed a Jedi Master who didn't fail his student for a change. I still could've rolled with all that though if The Last Jedi weren't so blatantly callous about loss of life and so careless about how the story might be able to move forward. 

The obvious: so many Resistance lives uselessly lost due to the Admiral Holdo and Canto Bight storyline. The really frustrating: Jedi Master Luke, who by the end of the movie is revealed to possibly be even more powerful in the Force than anyone ever imagined (or maybe not, because he did die, after all), decided to turn the Force off and ignore the millions, possibly billions who died. He clearly didn't live by the "With great power comes great responsibility" credo. Putting aside the idea of how unoriginal yet another hermit Jedi Master is, just what kind of a 'good' character is The Last Jedi trying to portray here? Someone who could do something but for countless years decided to not only do nothing, but to do nothing while at an island where the entirety of Jedi knowledge is? There's no character depth there; just failure to develop a truly interesting storyline that could've taken advantage of the ingredients provided by Force Awakens. Because if I wanted to see a well developed character study of a once great hero now brought low in his old age and the devastation wrought upon others by another character close to him, and who has come so close to giving up and accepting death that he turns his back on the girl who shows up at his door to seek his help only to eventually have events happen leading to his change of heart and stepping up again to be the hero he is ... I'll go rewatch 'Logan'. 

By the way, Last Jedi must be the only work of fiction I've seen where 'good' characters treat the destruction of books and knowledge with glee. Sure, by the end of the movie we get a blink-and-you-miss-it reveal that Yoda was having fun with a pun, but the message is absolutely bewildering: students don't need teachers because eventually students outgrow their teachers so let's blow this joint, literally? Besides, who needs history, right?

Which is just one of what I thought was the movie's extreme careless attitude to staying within an existing fictional universe. In addition to the issues raised by previous posters in this thread, I would also ask what exactly are the rules and limitations within this universe now? Just how absurdly powerful can someone be in the Force? Also, no more teachers around to train anyone who might need the training because ... Luke wanted to be the last Jedi but then realised he won't be so good luck to the newbies out there? And is hyperspace leaping into combatant ships going to be the thing to do, and if no, what possible excuse would there be not to do it?

But okay, I can say one nice thing about Canto Bight - look, it gave Mark Hamill a second character to play! He sure had fun! 

[VCRTracking]

All I have to say to those who Luke portrayed in this movie please read this essay:

My Hero, Luke Skywalker

People say the movie betrayed Luke Skywalker when really it stayed true to the original movies. He was a flawed character who often let his emotions control him. It was his strength but also his weakness.

 

4 hours ago, ainon said:

Because if I wanted to see a well developed character study of a once great hero now brought low in his old age and the devastation wrought upon others by another character close to him, and who has come so close to giving up and accepting death that he turns his back on the girl who shows up at his door to seek his help only to eventually have events happen leading to his change of heart and stepping up again to be the hero he is ... I'll go rewatch 'Logan'. 

Funny, I love 'Logan' but a lot of people when it came out said it ripped off "The Last of Us" video game.

4 hours ago, ainon said:

I still could've rolled with all that though if The Last Jedi weren't so blatantly callous about loss of life and so careless about how the story might be able to move forward. 

The obvious: so many Resistance lives uselessly lost due to the Admiral Holdo and Canto Bight storyline.

In A New Hope and The Force Awakens planets are destroyed and millions of people killed and characters in the film barely cared. In this movie you feel the loss of the Resistance more. There was nothing callous about it.

8 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Always. That's how the creator/audience contract works. I hate referencing Joss Whedon because he's such an ass, but s2 of Buffy really is the best example of give them what they need, not what they want. And because he got it right in s2, fans LOVED the Buffy/Angel story even though I guarantee you that NO ONE wanted or expected the Angel/Angelus twist. Had Rian Johnson told a satisfying story that still had Canto Bight, Rey's parents still being junk dealers who sold her, and Snoke getting killed by Kylo's trick, no one would be complaining about those things. But if you're going to try to give the audience what they need instead of what they want, then you damn well better know what they need.

This is why I think why Age of Ultron alienated some people. He tried to put the characters through the same kind of emotional turmoil as the characters in Buffy S2. When I watched Buffy 20 years ago it was thrilling to have one week a wacky hilarious episode where a love spell goes horribly wrong one week and then the next week a devastating emotional gut punch where a beloved character is killed. You can't have that feeling in one film experience. Also people are willing to go along for that ride when you have a 22 episodes of free television, but not a 2 hour+ movie they paid money for.

Edited January 6, 2018 by VCRTracking

[SimoneS]

9 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Also, it is the creator's responsibility to create a story that is satisfying to the audience. If the audience doesn't want what you gave them, you are the one who screwed up. Always. That's how the creator/audience contract works. 

No creator can satisfy the whole audience. Just because some people weren't entertained it doesn't mean that they screwed up or failed. Creators are successful if they entertain the majority and the film makes a profit.

Edited January 6, 2018 by SimoneS

[SimoneS]

8 minutes ago, doram said:

Technically at 50% audience score, at least one of those metrics hasn't been met.

As far as I know Rotten Tomatoes' audience score isn't representative of the audience's opinion about any film. 

8 minutes ago, doram said:

And by these metrics, the critically panned Bright was a resounding success, and the prequels were very successful. (Which is fine by me, btw. I loved the prequels and enjoyed Bright tremendously. But I can see how the "it made money and majority of the audience liked it" isn't an automatic measure of creative success.)

I never said anything about measuring "creative success" which I think is totally subjective. However, this idea that because some people shout loudly that they did not enjoy a film doesn't mean that their opinion carries the day or that it represents the consensus opinion of the millions of people who watched a film.  

Edited January 6, 2018 by SimoneS

[Zuleikha]

However, this idea that because some people shout loudly that they did not enjoy a film doesn't mean that their opinion carries the day or that it represents the consensus opinion of the millions of people who watched a film. 

The general consensus on TLJ is that it's polarizing. If you want to dismiss people who didn't like it as people shouting loudly, then those of us who didn't like it can dismiss people who did as  just people shouting loudly. And then we go nowhere. It seems much better to me to at least admit the reality that a lot of people disliked the movie and a lot of people did like it. Why be so defensive about it, especially given that a lot of the praise is for things that it's pretty obvious a lot of people won't like (such as the strange-to-me praise for the way the movie says f--k you to fans and to JJ Abrams)?

[quuote]In A New Hope and The Force Awakens planets are destroyed and millions of people killed and characters in the film barely cared. In this movie you feel the loss of the Resistance more. [/quote] Do you seriously not understand the difference between something happening because the VILLAINS did a horrible action that the film presents as being about their VILLAINY and something happening because a supposed protagonist is a complete f-- up? 

[VCRTracking]

7 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

 Do you seriously not understand the difference between something happening because the VILLAINS did a horrible action that the film presents as being about their VILLAINY and something happening because a supposed protagonist is a complete f-- up? 

Yes but I don't see how because it's the villain's fault people should seem to care less. Also I would have phrased your last sentence as "a protagonist made one very costly mistake."  which occurs in a lot of movies and is not an indication that a story is bad.

35 minutes ago, doram said:

That's exactly what happened with Bright: the critics shouted loudly that Bright but their opinion was nothing close to the general audience. Same with The Last Jedi, only in reverse. The critics shouted loudly that the film was flawless but at best, the audience is divided on that regard, and it's the worst performing of all 8 Star Wars movies.

The last worst performing since Attack of the Clones and before that, The Empire Strikes Back. The middle ones in a trilogy initially underperform compared to the previous one.

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, doram said:

You said "creators are successful" and listed conditions. What kind of success were you referring to then?

Exactly, what I said: Creators are successful if they entertain the majority and the film makes a profit. Fans and critics are the ones who come up with this concept of "creative success" so they can debate the artistic merits of a film.

Edited January 6, 2018 by SimoneS

[Slovenly Muse]

Finally got around to seeing this. I have to say, I liked it a LOT better than TFA. There was a lot to love in this movie. However, I was extremely bothered by Poe's storyline. He seemed to be the absolute embodiment of male entitlement throughout the entire film. The movie really lost me, and I mean INFURIATED me, the moment Poe, in the opening scene, F-ING HUNG UP on Leia! It was so disrespectful to a character who is really the true hero of the Star Wars franchise. She gave him a direct order as his commanding officer, and he not only disobeyed it, he actually HUNG UP as if to say, " Whatever, I know better than you." And decided he was better suited than a venerated General  to decide how to allocate their (apparently) scarce resources, and surprise! He was wrong, and barely pulled off a plan that got loads of people killed and cost the Resistance valuable ships. Which then prompted the FO to follow them and blast even more of their ships, and the entire upper level of the command structure. Leia demoted him, but he still seemed to think he had a shot at leadership (like he was going to be rewarded for his insane plan), and when Holdo was promoted instead, he demanded (unreasonably) to know what her plan was. She was completely right to shut him out. 

Immediately after this, Finn and Rose figure out how the FO is tracking and following them, and Poe decides WITHOUT CONSULTING HOLDO, that she would never agree to it and they would have to do it on their own. Which I take major issue with, because if they had a shot at preventing the FO from following them, that would save EVERYONE and be a huge win! And if they failed, the Resistance would be down a small strike team, but still be basically in the same situation. So why wouldn't Holdo want them to do this?! And if they had gone to her, she could have allocated some resources to help them improve their odds of success, or at least made decisions for the fleet with the knowledge that a team was working on the FO's ability to track them. Poe sabotaged his own plan by not letting Holdo in on it, and it ended up failing and costing a lot of lives, including Holdo's. But not before he throws a full-on temper tantrum at her, including smashing equipment and screaming that she's a "coward" and "traitor" based on nothing but knowing she has a plan she's not telling him about (even though HE has a plan he's not telling HER about, when knowing about it could make HER planning more successful). Like, way to prove your worth, Buddy! After that infantile display, she'll DEFINITELY let you in to the inner circle! He didn't respect her or trust her (when he really had no reason not to), and he kept secrets from her that were far more egregious than the "secrets" she was keeping from him. (Again, she was right not to let him in on all the details, seeing as how he had just been demoted for blatantly disrespecting his CO and working directly counter to the established plan.)

Then he staged an actual MUTINY, knowing that he didn't have all the info about what was going on! I found that shocking, and honestly, if he had learned all the details of the plan, and it had been a bad plan, and she was going to get people killed through incompetence or malice, I could have understood a mutiny. But all Poe knew was that she had a plan and wasn't talking to him about it, because he'd proven himself untrustworthy! He saw a tiny scrap of information, and immediately assumed he knew EVERYTHING and was smarter than she was because he saw the obvious flaws in what he blindly assumed was her plan. A mutiny was a HUGE overreaction, and not a good look on a "hero" who seemed increasingly, throughout the film, to have a problem with female authority figures. And what really gets me is that HER plan would have worked, if not for HIS secret plan that was stupid and failed, and got SO MANY MORE people killed! And yes, he did have a moment of understanding that she did have a good plan after all, but the film really did not underscore just how badly he had screwed up, how irresponsible his behaviour was, and how basically EVERY loss the Resistance suffered was Poe's fault. I don't think he really took responsibility for that, and it made it really hard to root for him going forward. To be honest, the only thing that would have redeemed him in my eyes would be if he REALLY took responsibility for his mistakes and had volunteered to be the one to stay on the cruiser and face a hero's death defending the transport pods that HE had endangered. Instead, Holdo was the one to have to sacrifice her life to pay for his mistakes. Poe experienced some personal growth, but he never had a moment of redemption that was on anywhere near the same scale as his mistakes.

I loved so much about this movie. I loved Rey and Luke's storyline, Rey and Kylo Ren's push-and-pull, and the notion that the Force is so much more than a "light side/dark side" good or evil thing. Just because Kylo doesn't want Rey to die, and takes her side against Snoke, that doesn't make him "good." But he DOESN'T want Rey to die, and he is unable to kill his mother... there are layers to his experience that are more complex than "is he good or evil."  I loved Rey accepting that her parentage doesn't matter (doesn't every orphan dream that their parents were some sort of famous heroes, and that they're heirs to greatness? Making Rey's parents "nobodies" freed her to embrace her own identity, and make her own choices based on who she was and who she wanted to be, not who she (or we) dreamed her parents might be.) I loved the introduction of war profiteering, and the idea that wars are not as simple as "good versus evil," and that there is a greater machine at work. I loved SO MANY THINGS about this movie, but I think Poe's storyline was a huge misstep. I came out of this movie despising him, and I'm certain that wasn't Johnson's intention. I'll be interested to see where things go from here in Episode IX.

[VCRTracking]

9 hours ago, Slovenly Muse said:

Finally got around to seeing this. I have to say, I liked it a LOT better than TFA. There was a lot to love in this movie. However, I was extremely bothered by Poe's storyline. He seemed to be the absolute embodiment of male entitlement throughout the entire film. The movie really lost me, and I mean INFURIATED me, the moment Poe, in the opening scene, F-ING HUNG UP on Leia! It was so disrespectful to a character who is really the true hero of the Star Wars franchise. She gave him a direct order as his commanding officer, and he not only disobeyed it, he actually HUNG UP as if to say, " Whatever, I know better than you." And decided he was better suited than a venerated General  to decide how to allocate their (apparently) scarce resources, and surprise! He was wrong, and barely pulled off a plan that got loads of people killed and cost the Resistance valuable ships. Which then prompted the FO to follow them and blast even more of their ships, and the entire upper level of the command structure. Leia demoted him, but he still seemed to think he had a shot at leadership (like he was going to be rewarded for his insane plan), and when Holdo was promoted instead, he demanded (unreasonably) to know what her plan was. She was completely right to shut him out. 

There's a scene early in The Force Awakens where Poe is taken aboard the First Order star destroyer and he's belligerent toward the Stormtroopers handling but then he sees the hangar bay and he suddenly looks around with an expression that reads "Oh shit, we're(The Resistance) fucked." That moment always stuck with me and it helped me understand his attitude in the movie. He's seen how big the First Order is and strong so the only way to beat them is to hit them hard. It's the Steve Rogers reasoning for never backing down from a bully "If you run, they'll never stop." I think he did end up being right in the beginning. The Dreadnought would have followed them through hyperspace and destroyed the fleet starting with the cruiser. It was a costly plan but it was a success so he wasn't going to learn that fighting isn't the only option.

Holdo definitely had no obligation to tell a demoted Poe her plan and was right to shut him out but she did it in the wrong way. If she had yelled at him like a military commander Poe would have respected that obeyed orders. Instead she was very condescending and personal, calling him "flyboy" and that irked him.

9 hours ago, Slovenly Muse said:

I loved SO MANY THINGS about this movie, but I think Poe's storyline was a huge misstep. I came out of this movie despising him, and I'm certain that wasn't Johnson's intention. I'll be interested to see where things go from here in Episode IX.

I predict Poe in Episode IX will take over the leader reins when Leia dies and will be way more cautious with probably Rey now being the "maverick" disobeying orders.

Edited January 7, 2018 by VCRTracking

[benteen]

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 0:05 AM, VCRTracking said:

 

Producer Harve Bennett and director Nicholas Meyers weren't even big Star Trek fans but the one they made(without any involvement from creator Gene Roddenberry) Star Trek II The Wrath of Khan is considered the best of the series. That's a movie that completely ignores everything about the first movie. The Rocky series: Each movie has a happy ending and then the next movie begins by completely tearing it down so Rocky has to start back on the bottom and work his way back again.

Very true but Nicholas Meyer also binged watched nearly all the original Star Trek episodes when he took the job.  That's how he selected Khan as the main villain and managed to bring the Kirk/Spock/McCoy friendship back to the forefront after making the three so hostile towards each other in The Motion Picture.

[Slovenly Muse]

3 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

He did up being right in the beginning. The Dreadnought had followed them through hyperspace and would have destroyed the fleet starting with the cruiser. It was a costly plan but it was a success so he wasn't going to learn that fighting isn't the only option.

Was he right in the beginning, though? I want him to be, because I like Poe, but he destroyed the Dreadnought BEFORE they tracked him through hyperspace (and before he knew they could, meaning it had nothing to do with protecting the cruiser, it was all ego). In fact, it was in all likelihood the REASON the FO tracked them through hyperspace. I think Leia had sent Poe alone, just one small fighter, to take out the Dreadnought's weapons and render it less of a threat (which he did). What are the chances they would have mobilized their flagship/Dreadnought/etc to pursue a lone fighter (if they even could - the question of HOW the FO was tracking them through hyperspace was never really explained)? By destroying the Dreadnought (one FO ship out of many), and bringing in the rest of his team against orders, Poe cost the Resistance what looked like ALL of their bombers, and put Hux in the situation of being truly humiliated in front of Snoke, giving them no choice but to follow the Resistance through hyperspace to take revenge and save face. Would they have done this if Poe had stuck to the plan? I honestly don't know, because the details of the original plan were fuzzy. Was it a "success?" That depends on your perspective. He did destroy the Dreadnought. But Poe was not in command. For all he knew, General Organa had plans for those bombers and the ships that were lost that could have dealt the FO a truly significant blow, or was working on a way to use the Dreadnought to their advantage. He didn't know WHY she didn't want it destroyed because he HUNG UP ON HER when she was trying to talk to him! He just assumed he knew better, and that she didn't want to do his plan because she wasn't as smart/brave/whatever as him. He got off LUCKY with demotion. He made the decision to poke the bear much harder than planned, and provoked a far bigger reaction than he had expected, that led to heavy losses on his side.  

 

34 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Holdo definitely had no obligation to tell a demoted Poe her plan and was right to shut him out but she did it in the wrong way. If she had yelled at him like a military commander Poe would have respected that obeyed orders. Instead she was very condescending and personal, calling him "flyboy" and that irked him.

She was a bit condescending, yes. But she was also very clear that she had a plan and he would have to trust her. If you think yelling at him like a military commander would have worked, I point you to the previous scene, when Leia yelled at him like a military commander to abort his plan, and he HUNG UP ON HER and did it anyway. And if being "irked" is enough to prompt him to risk every life in the Resistance on an insane gambit without the knowledge or support of the superior strategists above him in the command structure... then he has even less business calling the shots than he thinks he does. And like I said, I would be okay if he had really confronted his mistakes and made amends, but he never really did. It's not a good look on someone who is supposed to be our "hero."

44 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I predict Poe in Episode IX will take over the leader reins when Leia dies and will be way more cautious with probably Rey now being the "maverick" disobeying orders.

I suspect you're right. And I'll be interested to see how Abrams handles things. I hope they can give this character the real redemption that he deserves.

[ChelseaNH]

On 1/6/2018 at 0:40 AM, doram said:

There's no continuity, or overall outline.

My understanding is that Episode 9 was supposed to be a big movie for Leia, which implies an overall outline.  One that has to be scrapped and replaced, as it turns out.  Pretty sure people in Hollywood are used to long-term plans changing, for a variety of reasons.

[Athena]

Reminder to always be civil to your fellow posters when replying. Secondly, be mindful of circuitous arguments. If you've said your piece on a particular topic, consider moving on. Thank you.

[Zuleikha]

My understanding is that Episode 9 was supposed to be a big movie for Leia, which implies an overall outline.  One that has to be scrapped and replaced, as it turns out.  Pretty sure people in Hollywood are used to long-term plans changing, for a variety of reasons.

Rian Johnson has said in interviews that he had no overall outline that he had to mesh with for The Last Jedi. 

[SimoneS]

On 1/6/2018 at 8:25 PM, doram said:

*scratches head* So you are aware that you are declaring what defines a creator as successful but you want to distinguish between "creators are successful" conditions =/= conditions for "creative success"?

This seems to be devolving into semantics. 

I am not sure what you are saying here so I think we are at the point where we agree to disagree.

[stealinghome]

Quote

He did up being right in the beginning. The Dreadnought had followed them through hyperspace and would have destroyed the fleet starting with the cruiser.

How? The Resistance fleet would've outrun the Dreadnought (for a time) just like it outran every other big-ass starship that the First Order brought in to join the chase (for a time). Unless the Dreadnought was markedly faster than the other First Order ships and could've caught up to the Resistance ships when the other FO ships couldn't--which seems highly unlikely given its bulk--its existence wouldn't have materially changed the way the Resistance-First Order game of "hunt the hare" played out.

[piequinn35]

They wanted to destroy the Dreadnought because that warship had

bombardment cannons which had capabilities to annihilate any base on the planet from orbit

Poe disobeyed Leia, who only wanted to cut their losses,

It was the Supremacy, Snoke's flagship that had the tracker, if the Dreadnought was not destroyed and followed them, then it could destroy their base on Crait.

[Amtosbm]

I've seen the movie twice now with different people. The first time I have to admit I was disappointed. It didn't feel like a 'Star Wars' movie to me. I also had been convinced that Rey was Luke's daughter. The second time I liked it much more and I am fine with Rey being a 'nobody'. I think its one of those movies that will grow on some people over time. I felt the same way about Kiera Knightley's Pride and Prejudice, initially was extremely disappointed in it  and now its one of my favourites. 

That said I can see the compliments. This trilogy/9 movies is about the Skywalker's. The only Skywalker in these movies that is left is Ben Solo/Kylo Ren. That means these movies are about him whether people like it or not. And a lot don't for good reason - he's a terrrible person.  That said its not Rey's movie or Finn's its his which is why so much time was focused on him and making Rey talk to him. They want us to feel something for him besides hate. It worked on some people, some people still loathe him.  I am sure its why Adam Driver, an actor who really doesn't want to seem to be a big star, but is interested more in character roles, agreed to play him.  After watching it now several times and reading about it I really am shocked that the makers of these films went this route. They had to know people would hate Kylo and many not want him to live let alone possibly have redemption. Killing Han was shocking.  I have avoided posting about the movie because many people feel strongly on both sides and no one is letting go of their points and often times it feels like having a different point of view means you are not thinking logically. My feeling its a movie about a world away from ours that involves a family of a certain lineage losing their son and hoping they get him back.  Basically I think we are seeing the inversion of Anakin's story - I just have no idea how they are going to work him towards the light now with Carrie being gone. I am sure Leia was supposed to be a big part of that especially with his inability to fire on her on the deck. 

As a woman and a teacher, I also feel they didn't disservice the woman in this film or make their stories less important.  I was initially annoyed with Rose but by second viewing liked her forwardness and her determination to be part of the solution.  I also think Rey is fantastic. She is a strong but lonely person who has been given this amazing power that she has no idea how to use or work with. The only other person that also has this is Ben Solo and she is drawn to him because of that.  And yes I do think she finds him attractive as well - that scene in the elevator convinced me. She wants Ben Solo however not Kylo Ren and his gloved hands to work with her, which is why she left him (Kylo) in the throne room and she shut the door on him at the end.

My nephews have told me that force bonds last for life or until one of the parties dies.  I really think Snoke was lying about creating it. He also uses the force and knew something was going on and took credit for it. I don't need to know more about him or feel he is a missing plot point.  All I know is Kylo Ren will be a terrible leader. I wonder what the time jump will look like in the next movie and where everyone will be. I am actually excited to see where they go because honestly as I mentioned above I am shocked they went this route.  Its left the fandom very decisive to say the least. I am sure George Lucas is glad he doesn't have to deal with the fallout from these movies as well.

Edited January 9, 2018 by Amtosbm

[Slovenly Muse]

9 hours ago, piequinn35 said:

It was the Supremacy, Snoke's flagship that had the tracker, if the Dreadnought was not destroyed and followed them, then it could destroy their base on Crait.

True. But, again, that was not knowledge Poe had at the time. And it assumes that the FO would still have followed them if he had stuck to Leia's plan.

And saying Leia wanted to "cut their losses" implies that she originally wanted the Dreadnought destroyed, but tried to call off her own plan when she saw the casualties. This is not the case. Her plan was successfully completed. Poe didn't want to persist with a failing mission against orders - he completed the mission he was assigned, then spontaneously changed the goal of the mission, effectively launching a new mission without any understanding of what his superiors actually wanted. (As I pointed out upthread, there may have been a strategic reason that Leia didn't want the Dreadnought destroyed. He didn't ask, and wouldn't let her explain.)

[piequinn35]

1 hour ago, Slovenly Muse said:

True. But, again, that was not knowledge Poe had at the time. And it assumes that the FO would still have followed them if he had stuck to Leia's plan.

And saying Leia wanted to "cut their losses" implies that she originally wanted the Dreadnought destroyed, but tried to call off her own plan when she saw the casualties. This is not the case. Her plan was successfully completed. Poe didn't want to persist with a failing mission against orders - he completed the mission he was assigned, then spontaneously changed the goal of the mission, effectively launching a new mission without any understanding of what his superiors actually wanted. (As I pointed out upthread, there may have been a strategic reason that Leia didn't want the Dreadnought destroyed. He didn't ask, and wouldn't let her explain.)

I am confused. So did Leai not know that Poe commanded the bombers to destroy the Dreadnought after he destroyed the short ranged weapons? When the plan didn’t work she recalled everyone. If she was against the plan of the bombers she wouldn’t let the bombers leave their ship and just let Poe stall the FO for their evacuation and then leave.

[Cherpumple]

On 1/6/2018 at 4:11 AM, doram said:

The OT was Luke's story. We don't even know that Anakin is alive until the end of the 2nd movie. Before then, Vader is a Faceless Evil for Luke to defeat.

The PT was Anakin's story. And in that story, we see his backstory, his rise, his fall, and the fates of the people in that generation. 

The ST is Kylo Ren's story. He is the son of Leia and Han, and the nephew of Luke Skywalker and the only reason we have for what made him Go Evil was that Snoke did unprecedented Jedi juju on his brain (or that Luke made him evil when he tried to kill him).

After re-watching all the existing Star Wars movies over the holiday (and TLJ twice) I’m really leaning towards the idea that the entire ennealogy is all about Anakin- his rise (I-III), his fall (IV-VI), and his legacy (VII-IX). He’s been dead for over thirty years at this point, and yet he still casts an enormous shadow over the events of TFA and TLJ. The First Order was modeled on the Empire he helped build, Luke was so terrified of seeing another Jedi follow his path that in a moment of madness he almost murdered his nephew, Kylo is personally obsessed with him, and Rey’s over-confidence in her choice to go to Kylo in TLJ is largely inspired by knowing that Luke was able to redeem Anakin. Let’s face it: it’s Darth Vader’s world, and we’re all just living in it!

But back to The Last Jedi: I really liked it, and my favorite part was definitely the Rey/Kylo story. I wouldn’t call myself a Reylo shipper, but I can’t deny that the chemistry between the actors and Adam Driver’s ability to emote intensity, vulnerability, and desperate longing without uttering a single word completely drew me in. (Driver is what I call “ugly hot”. He’s not much to look at in photographs, and I don’t really care about watching him in interviews, but he has an undeniable charisma when he’s performing.) And believe me, I was NOT expecting to see their storyline go the way it did, so my approval of it had nothing to do with “getting what I wanted.”

I’ve really enjoyed the discussions on this thread about Rey’s arc in TLJ, and to add my two cents, her story worked for me. I didn’t consider her actions to be out of character or in service to Kylo’s story, especially in light of the fact that her world has been completely turned upside down in what, a few days? When we first meet her we see a life of monotony: she scavenges abandoned aircraft, eats the same boring food, and waits for parents whose faces she doesn’t even remember. Then in a very short time she leaves her planet for the first time, inadvertently befriends someone whom she would have considered an enemy (Stormtrooper Finn), experiences the immense power of the Force for both evil (Kylo’s interrogation), and good (kicking Kylo’s ass in her first light saber battle), meets and loses mythic heroes of her childhood through death (Han) and disillusionment (Luke), confronts painful truths about her family, and joins the Resistance. Heck, up until this point she had never even seen forests or grassy fields. I mean really, what a week!

And now at the start of TLJ Rey’s desperate to learn about the Force in an effort to save her friends, so when a strange new Force power (her connection to Kylo) is suddenly handed to her on a silver platter, I totally believe that she would be curious enough to find out what it means and why it’s happening, rather than just ignore or shun it. She’s nothing if not resourceful, so why would she turn away from a powerful tool like this, without examining it first?

And I even believe that she would eventually be willing to talk civilly to Kylo and hear his side of the story, despite their very recent confrontation. In the past few days everything she ever thought she knew has been challenged, so it makes sense to me that she would be open to this connection with him, and even willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. She recently learned that a Stormtrooper could be a kind and loyal friend and that the heroic Luke Skywalker not only really existed, but actually redeemed the evil Darth Vader, so why shouldn’t she be open to the possibility that Kylo might be turned to the light? And she also learned that heroes like Luke and Han are fallible, so she needs to step up and take more control of her own destiny. No more waiting around for a family that will never come back, now she’s actively going after the people she wants to see, and making use of the tools she’s given (the Force powers, the Jedi texts). I definitely saw her agency in all this, and liked her storyline.

 

Wish list for episode IX:

- The history nerd in me would love to see the ancient Jedi texts play an important role, especially seeing these new characters re-interpret the old ideas, or discover lost passages. I feel like this world is heading for a Jedi Reformation, and I’m totally on board.

- I want to know more about what Kylo actually knows about Anakin/Vader, because his blind hero-worship doesn’t make sense, in light of the fact that Anakin is probably the most conflicted (and arguably, tragic) character in this whole story. I would love for him to confront the fact that Anakin’s enviable strength was heavily influenced by deep-seated desperation and fear of losing his loved ones.

- Can’t wait for more bitchy in-fighting between Kylo and Hux. I love Domhnall Gleeson, but can’t take him seriously as a villain (all I see is Bill Weasley).

- Assuming they have Leia die off-screen (rather than just be alive, but elsewhere) I want her death to have a major impact on the characters. I want her friends and allies to be inspired and reinvigorated in their fight, and I want Kylo to be reduced to a sniveling mess of regret and shame, at least for a while. This death has to really mean something.

- As much as I love the Rey/Kylo interactions, I honestly have no idea what my “happy ending” for them would be: his redemption, her beating him to a pulp, them making a Force Baby that will finally bring real balance, her laughing at him as she rides off into the sunset with Finn or Poe, etc. Any of these could be great or terrible depending on the execution, and I’m happy to be surprised.

 

Finally, I interpreted Kylo’s shirtless scene as a cheeky homage to Leia’s gold bikini scene. Just a little pointless eye candy, but with a different audience in mind.

Edited January 9, 2018 by Cherpumple