S01.E06: Auditing

[MissMel]

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

 Fundamental, Independent Baptist.  It's nothing like the Southern Baptists

This reminded me of a small church that is on my way to Tampa. "Ye Olde Regular Baptist Church"  I have no idea what they are about but, clearly, they are not Southern Baptist and feel the need to specify that.

ETA: Come think of it, that chapel is very near Ocala. 

Edited January 7, 2017 by MissMel

[Sew Sumi]

Yeah, the IFB are a weird, disconnected (even from each other, not to mention the SBC) bunch. One may have no idea a church identifies as IFB until they sit there and start listening to very legalistic doctrine. 

At least with the CO$, you know what you're getting when you walk through their doors. Well, maybe unless you're a naive kid who joins the Sea Org (IIRC, with parental consent up to 16, no less!). The very worst were the kids born into it, who had no choice but join the Sea Org, like Jenna. It's pretty obvious that Miscavige instituted his "No Sea Org kids" rule after they were getting in trouble for using child labor. Six year old Jenna running a nursing dispensary still blows my mind. Miscavige can't make money off of these kids, so they are of no use to him until they can turn a profit. 

[Showthyme]

Scientology teaches its members to turn on each other by doing Knowledge Reports. You reap what you sow. Leah and others have done a great job doing a KR on Scientology. I love it!

There is so much rivalry and dysfuction. I don't know how ex-Scis learn to reach out and trust again. 

[Automne]

One thing that gets me about Co$ is that there's talk about the good they're doing, but they're not clever enough to at least have some sort of charitable front that they can point out to their critics. The members give up all their money to Co$, their primary church is a megachurch that seats tens of thousands of people, they have veritable millionaires and celebrities in their coffers, and yet there's no massive Co$ homeless shelter (which would actually be a very clever way to get more members. Act as a savior to those who have hit rock bottom and have no other options and now you have something to completely lord over them to essentially trap them) or mission trips or volunteer requirements for children and SeaOrg members. Hell, a lot of public schools in the USA have a volunteerism requirement for graduation. The culinary school I attended required at least 16hrs. of volunteer work in order to graduate. 

Granted, I don't want them to do so because I don't want Co$ to have (more) opportunities to manipulate and control the vulnerable. I'm just saying.

 

But what I find most disturbing about Co$ is the parallels between the stories of Co$ and North Korean defectors. Obviously, the families of Co$ defectors still within the church aren't sent to gulags to be punished for their family member's crimes and they don't have to trek for weeks on foot through jungle terrain to get to a safe territory, but the intense control of information, the personality cult, the distrustful nature (even encouraging family members and spouses to rat each other out), etc. It all has an Orwellian nightmare quality to it.

[Kareny]

7 minutes ago, Automne said:

One thing that gets me about Co$ is that there's talk about the good they're doing, but they're not clever enough to at least have some sort of charitable front that they can point out to their critics. The members give up all their money to Co$, their primary church is a megachurch that seats tens of thousands of people, they have veritable millionaires and celebrities in their coffers, and yet there's no massive Co$ homeless shelter (which would actually be a very clever way to get more members. Act as a savior to those who have hit rock bottom and have no other options and now you have something to completely lord over them to essentially trap them) or mission trips or volunteer requirements for children and SeaOrg members. Hell, a lot of public schools in the USA have a volunteerism requirement for graduation. The culinary school I attended required at least 16hrs. of volunteer work in order to graduate. 

Granted, I don't want them to do so because I don't want Co$ to have (more) opportunities to manipulate and control the vulnerable. I'm just saying.

Oh, step right this way. I'm partly surprised they haven't talked about it on the show yet, but I guess it's a whole other can of worms, and they're focusing on the most explosive stories in the time they have. But when Leah talks about Scientology saving the world and her reflexive desire to help addicts, I'm pretty sure this is the kind of thing she's referring to.

[Proclone]

21 minutes ago, Automne said:

One thing that gets me about Co$ is that there's talk about the good they're doing, but they're not clever enough to at least have some sort of charitable front that they can point out to their critics. The members give up all their money to Co$, their primary church is a megachurch that seats tens of thousands of people, they have veritable millionaires and celebrities in their coffers, and yet there's no massive Co$ homeless shelter (which would actually be a very clever way to get more members. Act as a savior to those who have hit rock bottom and have no other options and now you have something to completely lord over them to essentially trap them) or mission trips or volunteer requirements for children and SeaOrg members. Hell, a lot of public schools in the USA have a volunteerism requirement for graduation. The culinary school I attended required at least 16hrs. of volunteer work in order to graduate. 

I watched most of the videos on Growing up in Scientology on YouTube (Aaron Smith Levin runs it), and they talk about the concept in Scientology that it exists to "Make the able more able."  So, as far as Scientology is concerned it's pointless to help the poor or indigent because they aren't "able" and it would be a waste of time and money.  It goes along with the idea that all your suffering is your own fault.  While it would be good PR to have charities it's anathema to CO$ actual teachings.

I actually found all the videos on that channel interesting.  They explain some of the things that Scientology actually teaches and what their world philosophy is that isn't covered n Leah's show.  He does a series of videos with Mike Rinder about they differences between growing up in Scientology under LRH vs Miscaivage that I sheds some light on the changes that occurred. 

[HunterHunted]

2 hours ago, Kareny said:

Oh, step right this way. I'm partly surprised they haven't talked about it on the show yet, but I guess it's a whole other can of worms, and they're focusing on the most explosive stories in the time they have. But when Leah talks about Scientology saving the world and her reflexive desire to help addicts, I'm pretty sure this is the kind of thing she's referring to.

I'm constantly perplexed by Scientology and their overreach with Narconon. Most states have licensure exemptions for faith-based substance use disorder treatment facilities, but the states are also really clear about what these facilities can and can't do. Those facilities can't detox people, which Narconon often gets into trouble trying to do. They could be spreading the gospel of L. Ron Hubbard and providing some nominally therapeutic treatment if they stayed in their lane and did only what the law allows them to do. But they can't. 

Narconon disingenuously claims that they are being persecuted because they're in favor of truly drug free substance use treatment. Many nonreligious licensed substance use treatment facilities are uncomfortable using medications (methadone, suboxone, acamprosate) in treatment. A lot of substance use disorder treatment facilities don't have medical staff so they like to steer clear of medications in treatment. Their staff and management were trained before people treated substance issues with medication. Many licensed facilities follow the social learning theory of treatment-abusing substances is a learned behavior that satisfies certain emotional and social needs. Given that, auditing might actually be useful in treatment.

However, Scientology constantly overestimates what it can do. Licensed facilities are pretty good at getting people medically cleared before they admit the person. They have a hospital or doctor verify that person doesn't have any medical issues that might be an issue during treatment. And the moment that it seems like a patient in a licensed facility might have an unstable medical condition, the facility calls and ambulance. Unfortunately, Scientology thinks it can cure illnesses and disease. It then makes perfect sense that a Narconon program would let a client die having seizures. They think their faith and practice are equipped to treat those conditions.

The other thing I find interesting about Scientology is that it is not a redemptive or generous faith. If you are poor or were a criminal, you are undeserving of Scientology's teachings. Not even prosperity theology churches think that.

[DangerousMinds]

I don't know about them not targeting the poor; I think Leah's mom was poor and close to homeless when she took the family to work at Sea Org.

[CofCinci]

59 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

I don't know about them not targeting the poor; I think Leah's mom was poor and close to homeless when she took the family to work at Sea Org.

When they were poor, Co$ had a much higher census than they have now.  Co$ needed the labor and the family was willing to commit to a billion years.  Today, a poor or lower-income person who would like to take more classes and can't afford them no longer has the opportunity to provide labor in exchange for classes.  

Co$ now focuses on building square footage as an indicator of growth and not actual $cientologists.  For example, here in Cincinnati Co$ sold their small downtown Cinci building on 4th St. (literally months before the Cinci urban real estate market improved dramatically) for $650,000 in 2015 (purchased for $1,300,000 in 2000).  They purchased an old Baptist megachurch building in Florence, KY (about 15 minutes south of Cincinnati).  The Florence, KY site is 50,000 sqft.  The 4th St. building was just over 1/3rd the size of the Florence facility. So....  Scientology has GROWN in the Greater Cincinnati Region.  Scientology is growing, ya'll!
No, not really.

Scientology no longer requires the staffing levels of the 80s/90s, so there is no reason to recruit exploitable poor people.

Edited January 9, 2017 by CofCinci

[green]

19 hours ago, Showthyme said:

Scientology teaches its members to turn on each other by doing Knowledge Reports. You reap what you sow. Leah and others have done a great job doing a KR on Scientology. I love it!

There is so much rivalry and dysfuction. I don't know how ex-Scis learn to reach out and trust again. 

Both Mike Rinder and someone else on the show have said that the worst thing this group in the end does is steal away faith.  Once fooled it must be terribly hard to be open to anything else thus the real possibility of missing out on the good because they were deceived by the bad and are afraid to trust ever again.

7 hours ago, Proclone said:

I watched most of the videos on Growing up in Scientology on YouTube (Aaron Smith Levin runs it), and they talk about the concept in Scientology that it exists to "Make the able more able."  So, as far as Scientology is concerned it's pointless to help the poor or indigent because they aren't "able" and it would be a waste of time and money.  It goes along with the idea that all your suffering is your own fault.  ...

Kind of John Calvin meets Ayn Rand.

5 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

The other thing I find interesting about Scientology is that it is not a redemptive or generous faith. If you are poor or were a criminal, you are undeserving of Scientology's teachings. Not even prosperity theology churches think that.

Okay, correction.  John Calvin meets Ayn Rand meets Inspector Javert from Les Mis.

[fastiller]

1 hour ago, green said:

Kind of John Calvin meets Ayn Rand.

This gave me chills. Mostly 'cause it fits so well here.

[funky-rat]

On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 10:43 AM, DangerousMinds said:

Great idea, except that all the other crazies in the US would get upset thinking that he was coming for their "religion" next.

All you have to do to get around that is say a "religion" doesn't worship Jesus.  That will help.  And I say this as a Christian who has room for all viewpoints, and wish my fellow "Christians-In-Name-Only" did as well.

On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 7:26 PM, iMonrey said:

I want to know how they are getting their hands on all of these CO$ promotional videos they show. Surely the church didn't give them to them or make them public. Did Mike Rinder make copies and steal them?

Well, Leah showed her cabinet full of them, and I'm sure others have uploaded them online, or still have theirs as well.

On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 11:30 PM, Jade Foxx said:

Just wondering what would make a person lean more into Scientology,  vs.  let's say, Buddhism, or even the Hippie movement? Not the indoctrinated kids, I'm talking about the "free-willed" adults.  

My guess is it's the person who has a highly logical and analytical mind, who can't "get past" the faith based aspects of many organized religions (having faith in what you can't see), but who are too agnostic to become full-on Atheist.

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 2:36 AM, SiobhanJW said:

I'm thinking she was born into it and she meant she started with the classes & teachings at 10 years old? 

Because no way she is 51 years old, 41 seems about right. Even though she does look younger then that. 

Figure out how old his oldest daughter is, and add 1.  That's how old his wife is.

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 5:03 AM, spiderpig said:

I read a short story decades ago about a man who killed his wife so he'd be sent to prison.  He wanted "the freedom of regimentation".  He'd get accommodation, job assignments, food, medical care, and not have a single responsibility about his personal life - not where to work, what to wear or eat, when to get up and retire, or what to do with his free time since he didn't have any.

This was fiction (I hope) and I think of this allegory in connection with cults like CO$.  There are people whose idea of The Answer is being relieved of personal responsibility under the guise of religion, because religion is supposed to be for the greater good, isn't it?

I would hope the murder part was fiction, but there is truth to the rest of it.  Mr. Funky and I both had relatives who spent long terms in prison (one died there) and both of them thrived under the regimentation of it all.  It's been a proven as one reason there are a lot of repeat offenders for petty crimes. I've also read some speculation that it's part of the reason why some veterans who don't adjust to civilian life will repeatedly get arrested.

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 6:15 AM, Ina123 said:

I listened to most of the Jason Beghe interview yesterday. I didn't really learn anything except how much some of the "texts" cost. (An early one was $50,000 and he had $60,000 in the bank. He bought it. The money involved in these stories boggles my mind.)

Unlike most everyone who has listened to it, I found he went off on too many tangents to understand much of his story.  He sounds more philosophical and existential than down to earth. Which is, I think, (strictly my opinion) a characteristic of someone who would seek out something like Scientology.

I didn't listen to all of it. I got bored.

I didn't recall seeing him in anything at all.  I checked his bio, and I haven't watched much of what he's been in over the years.  I found him to be disjointed when he talks, and I too don't care for listening to him.  But still, good on him for speaking out.

 

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 9:55 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

I don't think we can put a label on all people who get caught up in the COS, however, I think that it does appeal to a certain mindset.  I'm not even sure if maturity has anything to do with it.  As a child, I sat in a fundie audience looking around to see when my parents would see the thing for the farce it was, get up and walk out.  Sadly, they joined in and stayed.  For years, I was the child in the family, but the only one who saw the truth.  And that's why the COS has their own education goals.  Fundies wanted private church schools, home schools, fundie colleges or NO higher education.  You can't have people reading too much or using their own brains/

Does anyone know if any of the COS member's children now attend a COS day school or are they allowed to attend public schools? I suppose that if you have to attend COS seminars all day, you don't have time to go to a regular college. If so, how do they get high paying jobs that support the organization? 

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 10:17 AM, Enigma X said:

Yeah. And related to that, for people who have not much education, all the people showcased seem to be doing exceptionally well financially after they leave.

My guess is that like others have said, those at the top were there because they had certain skills, whether they were learned (some came to the COS after receiving education) or they were street smart.  That, plus the strong fight-or-flight instinct they needed to survive in that shit-show are skills that are serving them well on the outside.  Plus, some of them have speaking engagements, books, TV appearances, websites, etc.  And I'm sure some have families who helped them, and perhaps other Ex-COS people.  Mr. Funky is a good salesperson, and excels at his job, receiving awards every year.  He said that you can learn some of what it takes to do the job, but a lot of it is built-in.  He can tell quickly if someone who is trying sales will work or not.  Also, I'm sure many of the Ex-COS people are achievement oriented, and that helps as well.

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 6:47 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

I suspect the show may steer clear of the COS tenants (MINUS THE ABUSES), because, it may seem then that it's their teachings of faith that are under attack. As wild as some things seem, they may be a tenant of their faith.  I mean, Baptist churches teach that Holy Communion, you are eating the flesh of Christ and drinking his blood.  Well, that's how they taught us.  I'm not sure about how other denominations handle it.  It' probably sounds pretty bizarre if you really examine it.   The show may not want to go there. 

Raised Methodist.  Currently Reconciling Methodist, but I've tried/experienced just about every other denomination under the sun over the years.  From the time I started with them as a kid (late 70's), they open Communion to everyone who is present and wants to receive - non-believers, non-members, members of other denominations, and children of all ages (even those un-confirmed).  It caused a stink back then (and sometimes still does) with older and/or more hard-core members who believe it's "too sacred" for children, who don't understand.  The church's stance on it is that everyone should be welcome, and The Lord's Table should not come with restrictions.  As for children, Jesus said to bring the children to him.  We were always taught that the bread SYMBOLIZES Jesus' body, and the "wine" (juice) SYMBOLIZES his blood.  Some Methodist churches do bread cubes and the "shot glasses" of juice that are either consumed at your seat, or at a large communal altar.  Some do the wafers, like the Catholics.  The one I currently attend does the actual loaf, where you tear a section and dip it into the chalice (and yes, we offer gluten-free bread  :) ).  I've raised a few eyebrows over the years and caused a fuss at one non-denominational church when I've attempted to take communion without being a member, being "saved", being baptized by immersion (I am baptized, but apparently not the right way), having done their particular version of confirmation (I am confirmed, again just not the right way apparently), and once because I wasn't 13 years old.  I'm such a shit-pot stirrer.  >:)

On ‎1‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 1:45 PM, Kareny said:

Oh, step right this way. I'm partly surprised they haven't talked about it on the show yet, but I guess it's a whole other can of worms, and they're focusing on the most explosive stories in the time they have. But when Leah talks about Scientology saving the world and her reflexive desire to help addicts, I'm pretty sure this is the kind of thing she's referring to.

That's one thing I was hoping they'd touch on too.  As a member of a 12 step program, and a spouse of someone in another 12 step program, it really upsets me that they call themselves "NarcOnon", I'm sure to be confused with "NarcAnon", which is a legit 12 step program which might actually help people, unlike the COS made-up stats crap.

[DangerousMinds]

There are many religions other than COS that don't worship Jesus. I'm not sure what you were saying there.

[funky-rat]

8 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

There are many religions other than COS that don't worship Jesus. I'm not sure what you were saying there.

Sorry - poorly worded on my part.  It was in reference to several comments made that said that it would be hard to get the government to go after them because it would appear to be violating freedom of religion.  My comment was attempting to say (and I still may have trouble wording it - having brain fog right now) that many people want to scream freedom of religion from the rooftops until it comes to protecting any religion besides Christianity.  Then the US magically becomes a Christian nation, and other religions/movements/etc become suspect.  Sadly, Mr. Funky and I both have relatives who feel like this.  My muddled thinking wanted to say that the freedom of religion protest aspect might wane if some segments of society knew there were no teachings of Jesus involved.  Hell, until South Park came along, I really did think there were at least some Christian teachings as part of their theology.  After all, they use a cross-like symbol.  And I truly believe a lot of people out there who defend the COS under freedom of religion have no clue what they're really about.  I'm not saying what the "Christian nation" people are doing is right by any long shot, but I'm also not sure they'd be so quick to defend if they had any inkling.  And because I can't find the words to explain it any better, I'm just going to shut up now before I offend anyone, or anyone else, because I really don't mean to.  I have room for all beliefs and viewpoints, as long as they're not causing harm, like COS does.

[hatchetgirl]

My hubby was raised a Jehovah's Witness and although never baptized, thankfully or only elders would be able to speak to him... Yes shunning is alive and well, he's still traumatized by the faith that was taken. He lost his father because he wouldn't follow the church, feels like he lost his family because they are still in the church (although we try to see them often), etc. It's truly heartbreaking what can be done under the guise of religion...

[DrSparkles]

On ‎1‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 3:13 PM, funky-rat said:

That's one thing I was hoping they'd touch on too.  As a member of a 12 step program, and a spouse of someone in another 12 step program, it really upsets me that they call themselves "NarcOnon", I'm sure to be confused with "NarcAnon", which is a legit 12 step program which might actually help people, unlike the COS made-up stats crap.

THE  HELL. All this time I've heard that as NarcAnon & was perplexed!!!!

[funky-rat]

11 minutes ago, DrSparkles said:

THE  HELL. All this time I've heard that as NarcAnon & was perplexed!!!!

I think they want you to be.  The technical name is Narcotics Anonymous, but lots of people call it NarcAnon. 

[Brattinella]

There is actually a thing called "Nar-Anon" too. 

 

http://www.nar-anon.org/

[3girlsforus]

I was confused about Narconon or however they spell it too. I thought it was narcotics anonymous too.  I assumed it was one thing that actually helped some people but then they used it to recruit people while they were dependent.  

[DrSparkles]

15 hours ago, funky-rat said:

I think they want you to be.  The technical name is Narcotics Anonymous, but lots of people call it NarcAnon. 

That is some trifling behavior.

[funky-rat]

18 hours ago, Brattinella said:

There is actually a thing called "Nar-Anon" too. 

 

http://www.nar-anon.org/

Nar-Anon is the Narcotics Anonymous version of Al-Anon.  Al-Anon is for family and friends of Alcoholics and/or people in Alcoholics Anonymous.  Nar-Anon is that for people with Narcotics problems.  I can't say enough good things about Al-Anon.  And it's not affiliated with COS in any way.

[pinguina]

Watching "Auditing" episode again. 

The video was shown where they "won the war", DM himself did not say "church", he said ORGANIZATION!!

One of the things that struck me was one of the cult's promotional videos.  A young lady (with a bland face and big smile) saying, "auditing and auditing, hours and hours, every day."  I found that kind of creepy!

I can understand people getting a "high" from unburdening themselves during an auditing session but if it's every day for hours - when do you come to a point where you really have no stories to share?  When do you begin to make things up (things that could potentially send you to sec check?)?  As a Catholic I go to confession and to be honest I do feel better afterwards BUT I don't keep going back every day and I don't have to PAY for confession.  I also don't have to pay to attend any studies, guest speakers, or having a conversation with the priest.  Plus if anyone I know "leaves" the Church - guess what? - I can still talk to them and spend time with them! 

AND I am so offended that this cult has a cross on their buildings!  To me a cross symbolizes Christianity and this cult is in no way Christian based and actually seems to actively go against basic Christian principles.  There is no compassion, forgiveness, helping, giving, loving in this horrible cult.

[Brattinella]

When folks go to confession, they are absolved in 5 minutes or less, can chat (or not chat) with the priest if they want, and it will NEVER BE BROUGHT UP AGAIN.  Priests will never on pain of death, reveal what they hear in confession.

[pinguina]

Branttinella - YES!!  You are absolved of your "crimes"!  You do penance to make up for what you did wrong.  AND the priest is bound by the laws of the Church never to divulge what anyone said in confession.  

Plus it seems that the auditing machine (e-meter?) registers ANY discomfort about ANY topic or reaction.  So it doesn't seem to differentiate between a "crime" or a discomfort or embarrassment.

[zxy556575]

It's supposedly pretty easy to beat a polygraph so you'd think Scilons would be expert at tricking the e-meter after 500 hours or so.

Edited January 17, 2017 by lordonia

[HunterHunted]

6 hours ago, lordonia said:

It's supposedly pretty easy to beat a polygraph so you'd think Scilons would be expert at tricking the e-meter after 500 hours or so.

It's also pretty easy to blow one too. Scientologists don't think that an e-meter is a useless piece of junk. They think that it's infallible, which puts them at a disadvantage. Additionally, they are forbidden from looking for info that might be critical of Scientology. If they could, they would realize that the guy who created Wonder Woman also invented an early version of the lie detector. He also lived openly with his wife and female lover. He was into bondage too. L. Ron Hubbard would later be inspired to turn a polygraph machine into an e-meter.

[NaughtyKitty]

When they talked about Collin's car accident, all I though of was that maybe it wasn't really an "accident".

[Uncle JUICE]

On 1/10/2017 at 3:37 PM, funky-rat said:

Sorry - poorly worded on my part.  It was in reference to several comments made that said that it would be hard to get the government to go after them because it would appear to be violating freedom of religion.  My comment was attempting to say (and I still may have trouble wording it - having brain fog right now) that many people want to scream freedom of religion from the rooftops until it comes to protecting any religion besides Christianity.  Then the US magically becomes a Christian nation, and other religions/movements/etc become suspect.  Sadly, Mr. Funky and I both have relatives who feel like this.  My muddled thinking wanted to say that the freedom of religion protest aspect might wane if some segments of society knew there were no teachings of Jesus involved.  Hell, until South Park came along, I really did think there were at least some Christian teachings as part of their theology.  After all, they use a cross-like symbol.  And I truly believe a lot of people out there who defend the COS under freedom of religion have no clue what they're really about.  I'm not saying what the "Christian nation" people are doing is right by any long shot, but I'm also not sure they'd be so quick to defend if they had any inkling.  And because I can't find the words to explain it any better, I'm just going to shut up now before I offend anyone, or anyone else, because I really don't mean to.  I have room for all beliefs and viewpoints, as long as they're not causing harm, like COS does.

I'm sorry I'm just finding this forum and your posts, @funky-rat. I bolded this because I can't like your post more than once, or like it extra hard, but this point is SO, SO important. Whenever a 'prayer in public school debate' arises (and I don't live in an area where it does, but I read stories every now and again from around the nation), I always feel certain that the easiest way to resolve it, make it go away, is to say "Yup, sure, no problem. We'll pray to God and Jesus on Monday, now on Tuesday it'll be Allah, Fridays we'll have Hindu..." and immediately, the Christian group (let's be honest, it's always Christians in these arguments, you never hear a Native American insisting that their culture's version of the creation myth is taught as an alternative to science) will drop it, because NO WAY are they putting up with someone praying to Allah! The US is not, and never was, and never SHOULD be, a nation of any religion. That in and of itself is an absolutely unAmerican value: preferential treatment of any one group or individual over any other. Specifically based on religion, in that case.

The reason I italicized is because be careful about singling out or even grouping COS into a perceived minority that some religions cause harm and others don't. Harm is a subjective term, but some might make the case that to some degree, all religions cause harm in some way, some more acute and obvious (ISIS) than others. Like you, I have plenty of room for people of all different viewpoints, realizing that mine is in the extreme, extreme minority, so long as we're limiting that acceptance to INDIVIDUALS rather than large scale organizations of the same denomination. It's important not to conflate the two, individuals with their overarching hierarchy. It's the hierarchy that empowers the harmfulness, I find that individuals almost always have good intentions as it comes to faith. I have an uncle, for example, who travels to Africa and other underdeveloped regularly with a religious organization to expand education, and they do it without 'trading' for it.

[WInterfalls]

About two weeks ago Aaron Smith-Levin posted a video about the hate website that popped up about him after the show.  

It's very good and I think worth the watch. FWIW his whole YouTube channel is pretty great and he has some good interviews.  

[smorbie]

On 1/4/2017 at 10:47 AM, laurakaye said:

I could've sworn Rinder's current wife said that she was a Scientologist for 36 years, and that she got into it when she was 10.  I clearly misheard, she's not that old.

Interestingly enough, I Googled Christie Collbran (Mike's current wife) and found an article written by Mike's daughter, Taryn Rinder, about her father and his second wife.  It's chilling, but written in the same juvenile style as the letters that Leah reads at the beginning of each episode.  Are they all trained to write that way?

http://www.whoismichaelrinder.com/articles/mike-rinder-christie-collbran-saddest-part.html

EDIT: I wandered over to the "Blog" portion of the above link.  I had to leave the site, it's just plain disturbing.

That content has been apparently removed.  I wanted to read it, though.  The letter she wrote to Rinder, the one that Remini read at the beginning of the episode about him, was just heartbreaking.

On 1/4/2017 at 10:50 AM, DangerousMinds said:

Since Leah has been considered an official "SP," no Scientologist is supposed to even acknowledge, read, or watch anything she does or says. She mentioned this in her book. So are the higher-ups adhering to their own policy?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (wearing my black turtleneck and doing my bestest tom cruise impression)

Edited August 10, 2017 by smorbie

[smorbie]

On 1/4/2017 at 11:03 AM, laurakaye said:

My question is, how on earth does a Scientologist know that what they are studying is going to stick?  How can they "learn" anything when at any time, someone is liable to tell them that "oh hey, there were several mistakes in that book, here's a new book - learn it.  And by the way, it costs $500."  Are they blindly brainwashed into studying whatever is placed before them?  At some point, wouldn't they wonder about all the so-called "mistakes?"

By that time they are so deeply into it that they don't know anything else.  And most of them have their families there, too.  One of the things I learned from Remini's interview with Joe Rogen was that he mother hadn't been a believer in it for YEARS before Remini quit.  She just kept quiet.  As an OTVIII she didn't have to constantly be at the church, so she wasn't always being audited. But, she had to stay in it for her children.

[smorbie]

On 1/4/2017 at 9:52 PM, mjstrick said:

Evidently they do it by taking a crap ton of niacin, running for 30 minutes, then spending 5 hours in a sauna.  Who knew I could have just saunaed my cancer away.  

I KNOW!  It's like slapping your forehead and realizing you could have just had a V-8 instead.  All that chemo and radiation and I could have just sweated and taken niacin.  Man!

[smorbie]

On 1/5/2017 at 0:07 PM, WInterfalls said:

I have to believe that comes from literacy because while they are not formally educated they read a lot and at a very high level. If they are used to reading and can do so with good comprehension they are going to have a greater vocabulary and be more well spoken.  They may not know math or chemistry or history (though they could learn from books they read after they leave if interested) but in conversation they will at least appear more intelligent. Compare that to most fundies that are home schooled or in fundie schools until about 5th grade.  They often leave with a reading level of around 3rd or 4th grade so they don't have the skills to comprehend newspapers or most adult books.  It doesn't mean that they are inherently less intelligent but they won't have the vocabulary and the understanding that will make them appear more intelligent.  

This is something I was saying a while back.  When you are used to working 16 hours a day 7 days a week you will find a job and do well.  When you are the first person there, the last to leave, and your work is the best someone will notice.  Even when Rinder was selling cars I bet he had a solid skill set was more dogged and did better follow ups than most of the other salesmen.  

I'm a fundamentalist Christian.  I was reading at a college level by the time I was in the third grade.  After having read a lot of the criticism of fundamentalists on this site, I think maybe we are using different definitions of the word.  A fundamentalist Christian is one who believes the Bible is the true, literal word of God.  We are not the groups out there marrying off our children to old pervy men, or denying our children education.  Many Christians do home school, but those children routinely score much higher on the SAT's than the children who attend public school.  Christian schools are usually accredited by the state and have to adhere to the same testing standards public schools do.  They are considered Christian because they are allowed to mention God in the classroom.

[smorbie]

On 1/5/2017 at 4:10 PM, palmaire said:

I think the producers/Leah have done a terrific job focusing on the abuses but still providing enough context about the basic belief systems so that viewers can understand how Scientologists are indoctrinated and why family members readily comply with disconnection and fair game policies.

One of the things I enjoyed most was Remini's overview of the bridge and how they travel up and down repeatedly on it.  I would really like to see more of that aspect.  I understand that's not the focus of the series, and right now I'm reading a bit about it by Claire Headley on tonyortega.org. I just find it so fascinating.

It answers a question many of us have about Rinder's affect.  There's a course they take with a section called bullbaiting. This is also illustrated in the My Scientology Movie some have mentioned (quite good, actually).  Two people face each other and one screams insults and just sounds, and often touches, sometimes inappropriately, the other person and the other person CANNOT change expressions.  If he does, he never passes and has to just endlessly do it again and again and again.  This is a continual process in the crock and really explains the impassive face Rinder has.

[WInterfalls]

18 minutes ago, smorbie said:

I'm a fundamentalist Christian.  I was reading at a college level by the time I was in the third grade.  After having read a lot of the criticism of fundamentalists on this site, I think maybe we are using different definitions of the word.  A fundamentalist Christian is one who believes the Bible is the true, literal word of God.  We are not the groups out there marrying off our children to old pervy men, or denying our children education.  Many Christians do home school, but those children routinely score much higher on the SAT's than the children who attend public school.  Christian schools are usually accredited by the state and have to adhere to the same testing standards public schools do.  They are considered Christian because they are allowed to mention God in the classroom.

That's actual true on average for home schooled children especially in the Verbal portion of the SAT. Where you see more of the issue with some fundamentalist sects has more to do with isolation.  Though as an educator I have worked with several kinds from a local fundamentalist school and they are consistent 2-3 years behind in reading and writing.  That maybe the way this particular school run but it's certainly concerning.  

[smorbie]

On 1/6/2017 at 0:31 PM, bubbls said:

You know, after watching this I've concluded I'm far too cheap and far too lazy to ever be a scientologist. The only thing  want to spend that kind of time and money on are things I like such as knitting or my family. I don't care about saving the planet or even improving myself if it's this costly in time, effort, and money. 

Even if I hadn't already been too sane and too committed to my religion to consider such a thing, they would have lost me at 2 1/2 hours a day at the center.  ARE YOU KIDDING ME?  After a full day of work, I wanted to go home, take off my bra and shoes and pull a kitty cat into my lap while I stared at tv.  No way would I traipse down to some place like that to be emotionally tortured for 2 1/2 hours EVERY DAY.  And then pay for it, too?  No, just no.  And again, no

[smorbie]

On 1/6/2017 at 0:53 PM, RedheadZombie said:

Regarding education - I was on ex-Scientology kids last night.  There was a paragraph on the quality of CO$ schooling versus public school.   One of the site runners said she thinks Scientology is superior at teaching reading and writing.  It's in all the other subjects that they fail. 

I can see that.  They have to exhaustively read Hubbard's drivel, look up words they don't understand, recite it back and be able to write essays on it.

[smorbie]

2 hours ago, WInterfalls said:

That's actual true on average for home schooled children especially in the Verbal portion of the SAT. Where you see more of the issue with some fundamentalist sects has more to do with isolation.  Though as an educator I have worked with several kinds from a local fundamentalist school and they are consistent 2-3 years behind in reading and writing.  That maybe the way this particular school run but it's certainly concerning.  

Okay, yeah, we're using different meanings for the same word.  Most people who consider themselves fundamentalists are that because they believe the Bible is the literal word of God.  They believe the world was created in seven days and Moses parted the Red Sea and Noah built an ark.  What you are talking about we would refer to as break-away religions, or tiny little (weird) sects that have no central organization to which they have affiliation.  So, if they, like Jim Jones, suddenly decided to tell their church they could not longer decide whom to marry or how many children to have or whether they could watch tv, there would be no higher authority other than one leader's word.

I'll play along more nicely now.  :)

On 1/6/2017 at 8:05 PM, MissMel said:

This reminded me of a small church that is on my way to Tampa. "Ye Olde Regular Baptist Church"  I have no idea what they are about but, clearly, they are not Southern Baptist and feel the need to specify that.

ETA: Come think of it, that chapel is very near Ocala. 

But ya gotta love the name, right?  I passed one called Dead Sister's Baptist Church".  I was really struggling until I realized it was next to Dead Sister's Road.  And that was strange in it's own right.  Like they didn't know their sister's name?

[Diane Mars]

6 hours ago, smorbie said:

That content has been apparently removed.  I wanted to read it, though....

Maybe will that link be able to help ^_^ : https://web.archive.org/web/20170113214532/http://www.whoismichaelrinder.com/articles/mike-rinder-christie-collbran-saddest-part.html

EDIT : http://web.archive.org is your best friend <3 in that kind of situation :D

Edited August 10, 2017 by Diane Mars

[smorbie]

26 minutes ago, Diane Mars said:

Maybe will that link be able to help ^_^ : https://web.archive.org/web/20170113214532/http://www.whoismichaelrinder.com/articles/mike-rinder-christie-collbran-saddest-part.html

EDIT : http://web.archive.org is your best friend <3 in that kind of situation :D

Thank you for posting that.  She suffers from a severe lack of education, doesn't she?  Not only that, there's no emotion behind her words.  It's like a robot wrote it, but a robot would certainly write better.

[smorbie]

On 1/4/2017 at 10:31 AM, DangerousMinds said:

I've wondered about their EXTREME reactions to drug usage (alcohol too?) I just read Leah's book and since her mom once did LSD, she couldn't even be considered for the Sea Org. Did LRH have some extreme views on drugs and addiction, perhaps?

I've been reading Tony Ortega's series about Dianetics. The chapter I was reading the summary of today included some of lrhuckster's drug beliefs.  In Dianetics, he was apparently, not against them altogether.  But at some time in the future (my guess is the Just-say-no-to-drugs 80's) he decided drugs were really bad and pretended he had never had a different opinion.