S04.E13: Two Journeys

[ghoulina]

On 12/15/2016 at 9:21 AM, Sakura12 said:

Ragnar's really become a sad sack in his declining years. He sailed to Wessex for suicide by his enemy. I don't know why he brought Ivar along on his suicide mission. How's he going to get back home without any ships or people?

He brought Ivar so Ivar could tell the story. All those men he killed? They'd tell the story of the shipwreck and landing a beach with no plan, and having to haul Ivar around for hours. Ragnar wants to go out like a true Viking king, in a blaze of glory with a great story that will be told for years to come. He needs someone to go back and tell that story. Knowing how resourceful Ivar has been thus far, I have no doubts he'll manage it. 

 

14 hours ago, whoknowswho said:

A couple things--  Yes, It irks me that the women are still ethereal looking, and the men are beaten up looking, though Rollo looks pretty darn young for his age.  Isn't he Ragnar's older brother

Yes, I believe he's older. Ragnar probably looks older now, because he's had a much rougher time of it the past ___ many years. Rollo was living a cushy life in France, so he's been preserved a bit better. 

 

13 hours ago, Lillybee said:

Aslaug's eyes remind me of Melania Trump's eyes. Make of that what you will>

Aslaug looks exactly like one of my husband's friend's wives, if she were thinner and had read hair. The eyes, the nose, the cheekbones. Identical. And I HATE said friend's wife. So I'm not sure if that colors my view of Aslaug; it certainly doesn't help. 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Why Does Vikings's Rollo Want In On Bjorn's Seemingly Doomed Cruise?

Also, Aslaug's psychic, so why isn't that more useful? Liane Bonin Starr has questions about the latest episode of Vikings!

[green]

14 hours ago, whoknowswho said:

Rollo looks pretty darn young for his age.  Isn't he Ragnar's older brother?  ...

On Torvi--Torvi was spared when Jarl Borg was killed, wasn't she? She was Horick's daughter (right?)  and then became Earlender's woman, and then Bjorn's wife.  I may be wrong on Jarl Borg, can't remember  at this moment-- but she was his wife, right?  I think she feels a certain fealty to Lagertha, I believe.  And she's the daughter of a king and a wife to the Viking equivalent of a prince (Bjorn, who may become King), if I have that right.  May as well hang with the once and future queen of Kattegat.
 

No, Ragnar is the older brother.  Rollo was always in his shadow thus his main character trait is to move up and become the dominant brother that sagas will be written about instead.  Has shaped all of his actions in this show really.  And in real history of course they aren't brothers and Rollo lived a generation or two later which definitely makes him the younger, hah.

I posted about Torvi in my first post in this thread but I'll repeat it here because you mentioned King Horick.  No she is not his daughter.  But Erlunder was his son and the only member of his family that Ragnar spared (final episode of Season 2). 

Her first husband was indeed Jarl Borg and she had a son with him named Guthrum.  Guthrum was basically threatened by Erlunder to force Torvi to go with him.  At that point Lagertha took over being Guthrum's guardian for the years she was stuck with being Erlunder's wife.  Lagertha actually asked after Guthrum in this last episode.

Torvi's third husband (third time is the charm for her) is Bjorn as we know.  Guthrum lives with them now along with their own biological kids.  Lagertha is her mother-in-law as well as Guthrum's savior.  So of course she would be loyal to Lagertha first, last and foremost.  Lagertha taking back Kattegat also means it would likely go to her husband Bjorn one day rather than Aslaug's rugrats since Lagertha has no other blood relatives and Ragnar is off in England looking to die.

[LiveenLetLive]

Since Hirst takes many liberties, why in the hell did he make Gisela such a brat? I have been watching the truly great new BBC series by Lucy Worsley (English Historian and a girl crush of mine) on the 6 wives of Henry the 8th and she mentioned that when Henry went warring to France that he made his wife, Catherine of Aragon Regent--why didn't Hirst do that instead of having Gisela pitch a bitch fit?  It is just so annoying.

[magdalene]

I probably like Gisla better than some here but this time period is much earlier than Henry the 8th - and who says Gisla won't run things while Rollo is going Viking? I think he will come home to her and the kids eventually and they will make up.

[Haleth]

Just to be clear, Rollo is Duke of Normandy, not king.  (I wondered if Gisela's father (Charles?) was still alive at this point.)

[Babalooie]

Regarding Sigurd and Ubbe being locked in the barn, my impression was that because they are Ragnar's sons,  Lagertha was protecting them, but maybe not.    Haleth, King Charles was killed.

[millennium]

Why is everyone talking about Ragnar dying?   Did the show announce something?  Was there a preview?  WTF? 

[ghoulina]

33 minutes ago, millennium said:

Why is everyone talking about Ragnar dying?   Did the show announce something?  Was there a preview?  WTF? 

He just tried to kill himself an episode or two ago. And he continues to behave like a man with a death wish, IMO. He's getting older and he's totally sullied his reputation. I see this big trip as him wanting to do something BIG, so he can finally die with his name restored. He's burning bridges. I do not see him going back.

 

3 hours ago, Babalooie said:

Regarding Sigurd and Ubbe being locked in the barn, my impression was that because they are Ragnar's sons,  Lagertha was protecting them, but maybe not

Yea, I absolutely saw it as an act of mercy, not because they were some big threat or anything. Of course they'd try to defend their mother and their home. but being that they are Ragnar's sons as well, Lagertha wanted them to be a non-issue when she arrived in Kattegat.

[millennium]

20 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

He just tried to kill himself an episode or two ago. And he continues to behave like a man with a death wish, IMO. He's getting older and he's totally sullied his reputation. I see this big trip as him wanting to do something BIG, so he can finally die with his name restored. He's burning bridges. I do not see him going back.

But without him, this show is toast.    It's all supporting cast after that.   Think Breaking Bad without Walter White.   It's pretty clear what happens to the historical Ragnar but this show isn't canonically tied to history.   It uses history as a model or guideline and takes liberties for the sake of storytelling.   I have been hoping to get at least a couple more seasons of the Ragnar storyline before the plot resigns itself to the historical outcome.   As for his deathwish, in the past we have seen Ragnar commit himself to an outward guise even as he schemes internally.    He is not a character to be taken at face value.

I'm not ready to count him out yet.

[Scaeva]

Female warriors aren't as far-fetched as some think. They may not have been commonplace, but they did exist.

Amage

Veborg

Tomoe Gozen

Edited December 17, 2016 by Scaeva

[Ohwell]

No one has said that female warriors didn't exist.

[whoknowswho]

7 hours ago, millennium said:

But without him, this show is toast.    It's all supporting cast after that.   Think Breaking Bad without Walter White.   It's pretty clear what happens to the historical Ragnar but this show isn't canonically tied to history.   It uses history as a model or guideline and takes liberties for the sake of storytelling.   I have been hoping to get at least a couple more seasons of the Ragnar storyline before the plot resigns itself to the historical outcome.   As for his deathwish, in the past we have seen Ragnar commit himself to an outward guise even as he schemes internally.    He is not a character to be taken at face value.

I'm not ready to count him out yet.

 

Spoiler

 

The real Ragnar Lodbrok/Lothbrok died, in England (If his story is true--and it isn't 100% for sure). If you have read his sagas and history--I think they really can't change that huge a part of his actual story.  

His death brings his sons--especially Bjorn and Ivar--into being extremely powerful and important parts of all our history--those in England/Britain and France, and those of us in North America.  (We have 2 Viking settlements in Newfoundland, proof that they did make it here, and were here for at least some years)  I can't see how Hirst can possibly ignore Ragnar's death.  But of course he's telling a story, based on the sagas and not even following what history has said had happened, so anything's possible. 

 

[millennium]

3 hours ago, whoknowswho said:

Spoiler

 

The real Ragnar Lodbrok/Lothbrok died, in England (If his story is true--and it isn't 100% for sure). If you have read his sagas and history--I think they really can't change that huge a part of his actual story.  

His death brings his sons--especially Bjorn and Ivar--into being extremely powerful and important parts of all our history--those in England/Britain and France, and those of us in North America.  (We have 2 Viking settlements in Newfoundland, proof that they did make it here, and were here for at least some years)  I can't see how Hirst can possibly ignore Ragnar's death.  I hope it doesn't happen this season, but I do believe it will. 

 

 

If it had been announced this was the final season, okay, well and good.   But gosh, I can't imagine Ragnar dying and the show continuing without him.   Of the remaining characters, I like Bjorn, Lagertha and Auslog -- but none of them are nearly as charismatic or engaging as Ragnar.   The sons are disposable characters, IMHO, other than Ivar who is interesting but neither admirable nor heroic.

[Haleth]

The only thing about following the adventures of the Ragnarson boys is that they'll be overlapping The Last Kingdom, which apparently is coming back on Netflix in 2017. Of course it would be from a different point of view, Ivar vs Alfred.  On second thought that might be kind of interesting. 

[Scaeva]

1 hour ago, Ohwell said:

No one has said that female warriors didn't exist.

No, but the post at the top of the page  questioned whether a woman could hold her own against a man in combat. I've lurked long enough here and IMDB to have also seen similar posts, discussing earlier seasons. 

They could, and did.

Lagertha and the other shield-maidens are far from being the most far-fetched element of Vikings.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Scaeva

[magdalene]

On 12/16/2016 at 0:20 PM, Haleth said:

I noticed Rollo said one of his sons was named William.  I wish the series would last long enough to cover the next couple hundred years. 

With the way this show is playing fast and loose with time lines

Spoiler

I was wondering for a moment whether this was supposed to be the William but then went nah, more likely the boy is the grandfather of that William.

 

Quote

But without him, this show is toast.    It's all supporting cast after that.   Think Breaking Bad without Walter White.   It's pretty clear what happens to the historical Ragnar but this show isn't canonically tied to history.   It uses history as a model or guideline and takes liberties for the sake of storytelling.   I have been hoping to get at least a couple more seasons of the Ragnar storyline before the plot resigns itself to the historical outcome.   As for his deathwish, in the past we have seen Ragnar commit himself to an outward guise even as he schemes internally.    He is not a character to be taken at face value.

I'm not ready to count him out yet.

I am guessing Hirst doesn't agree that the show is toast without Ragnar.

Spoiler

He is bringing in his The Tudors star to shake things up

  Ivar is clearly being positioned to take over as the main viking.  Ragnar himself told Aslaug of all people that she had been a good wife and mother.  If that wasn't a final good bye what else was it.  Ragnar is not coming back to Kattegat. 

Now the dead Athelstan has been appearing as vision sometimes, maybe a dead Ragnar will appear as a vision to his sons when they need guidance, or something.

If I was a betting woman I would bet that Ragnar meets the snakes a the end of this season.

[formerlyfreedom]

A reminder - please check out this topic regarding historical spoilers:

Quote

 

Philosophically I hate marking history as a spoiler but for history that's not well known and the subject of a TV show, I think spoiler tagging historical fact that will/might/probably be on the show should be spoiler tagged.

Here's why: some people like the show and are avoiding the known history the show is working with so they can enjoy it on face value. So please spoiler tag your historical facts for stuff taking place in the 'future' in the Vikings show universe. Thanks!

 

Some posts have been hidden - there will be some review and posts that are returned may have some spoiler tags. Please keep discussion here about the episode, and if you want to discuss speculation about future episodes or discuss what actually happened in history, take that to the appropriate topic. Thanks!

[HunterHunted]

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 10:05 AM, BitterApple said:

I'm interested to see what happens next week. My spidey senses tell me Aslaug isn't going to simply hand over the city she's spent the last decade building for her sons. She may not be a great battlefield warrior but she's far from stupid.

Well, Aslaug's father was Sigurd, who killed the dragon Fafnir, and her mother was Brynhildr, who was basically the greatest shield maiden who ever lived. Her first scenes with Ragnar showed Aslaug to be clever when she answered Ragnar's riddle. She's also got her gift of psychic foresight and she's been visited by Odin in the form of Harbard.

[green]

On 12/16/2016 at 2:38 PM, BitterApple said:

Agree, especially when you consider this is a time period where people suffered food scarcity and disease on a regular basis. I don't doubt that female warriors existed, but I'm dubious as to their role in one-on-one combat. Lagertha's a bad ass, but she wouldn't stand a chance against a guy like Rollo or Bjorn, where there's a six inch height and fifty pound weight advantage. I'm the same as you, where I understand the writers have to take some creative liberties, but it's starting to cross into fantasy land.

Did you see the Real Vikings (or is it True Vikings) complimentary show that came on after Vikings this week?  It was all about female roles in Viking society.  The actor that played Lagertha got to see the bones and artifacts from a grave in Sweden that contained a female body buried with sword, fighting long knife, bow, arrows, shield and some armor.  The actor was so stoked too calling the woman a real bad ass and picking up her old sword saying it was just like the one designed to be Lagertha's on the show.

So add that to the Norse sagas themselves that speak about shield maidens all the time and it adds up.

They also showed a standard technique using sword and shield where a woman could fend off a Rollo type and go for the kill thrust all in one move.  It had to do with twisting her sword at a downward angle to parry off the male's sword attack and split him open from his shield in the process causing him to become completely vulnerable to a thrust to his neck.  Is some of the fighting female stuff over the top?  Sure but so are male "ninja moves" vikings too. So no it isn't fantasy land.  There are some real facts to back it up.

Also a Lagertha in real life wasn't looking like a Hollywood actor.  Have you seen some tough, peasant style women even in our modern world?  I have.  Big bones and weighing 200 lbs or pure muscle they were.

FYI the actor who plays Aslaug got to appropriately see a Viking witches' grave, lol.  Well she was well dressed too (real gold woven into her burial dress) so she was a prominent person as well. 

It was the best of the three documentary complimentary pieces they have had on so far for these past three Viking episodes.  It even showed where the slave girl that volunteered to die and "go with" Earl Haraldsen's funeral pyre boat idea came from.  Hirst said he took it almost word from word from an Arab traveler to Scandinavia's account from back in the ten hundreds I think it was.

Edited December 19, 2016 by green

[Ohwell]

I've seen all of the Real Vikings episodes thus far, and the one with the shield maidens was interesting.  I can certainly believe that they existed, and strong fighting women exist today (I wouldn't want to meet Ronda Rousey in a dark alley).  However, they only showed that one shield maiden's grave so that doesn't tell me that there typically were as many as seen fighting on the show, especially in the last episode.  Also, the "reenactment" of how a shield maiden could have bested a man in a sword fight was interesting and, again, I can believe that it's possible, but some of the female vs. male fighting on the show does seem to be over the top.  It's one thing to do a reenactment; it's another thing to be on the field in the heat of battle.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Ohwell
Clarification

[leisawoo]

So, just to be sure-at the end, when Aslaug was carrying the sword horizontally, I got the impression she was going to concede the kingdom to Lagertha. I just can't see there NOT being a big fight between Aslaug & Lagertha, though. Did I miss something or misinterpret?

[BitterApple]

48 minutes ago, leisawoo said:

So, just to be sure-at the end, when Aslaug was carrying the sword horizontally, I got the impression she was going to concede the kingdom to Lagertha. I just can't see there NOT being a big fight between Aslaug & Lagertha, though. Did I miss something or misinterpret?

They left us with the impression that Aslaug concedes, but who knows if it's really going to happen or she has something else up her sleeve.

[ghoulina]

On 12/17/2016 at 0:05 PM, millennium said:

But without him, this show is toast.    It's all supporting cast after that.   Think Breaking Bad without Walter White.

Spoiler

I don't really see the comparison. BB was absolutely Walt's journey, from beginning to end. But this is show is Called Vikings in the plural; I don't see why it couldn't follow many stories over the years. I think Ludwig is a fine actor and I'd be more than happy to see Bjorn's life unfold. I also think the actor who plays Ivar is amazing and Ivar was probably the most memorable of Ragnar's sons. There are plenty of stories to be told. Fimmel will be missed for sure, if they decide to kill Ragnar, but I don't see him as carrying this show with the others just being "supporting cast".

 

 

21 hours ago, Ohwell said:

No one has said that female warriors didn't exist.

Precisely. They did. Vikings, more than many, had female warriors. My issue was that there wouldn't have been entire armies made up of them, and they would be utilized in different ways than the shield wall. Sometimes it just feels like trying a bit too hard.

[TaurusRose]

On 12/16/2016 at 0:41 AM, Lillybee said:

Aslaug's eyes remind me of Melania Trump's eyes. Make of that what you will>

In my case, nothing good I can assure you.  LOL

[Ohwell]

The actress who plays Aslaug was on the latest episode of Real Vikings and I was surprised at how much better-looking she is without all the eyeliner.  Not nearly as hard-looking as she is on the show.

[Captanne]

Now there are three things other people are seeing that I am not:  Aslaug's over-drinking.  Old King Ragnar as hate-worthy.  And the show can't go on with out Ragnar.  

I think they've done a careful and admirable job of seeding Ragnar's sons to carry on the show.  I especially like the actor who plays Bjorn.  (I'm not smitten with Bjorn himself but only two characters have really "smitten" me -- Ragnar, because of the combo of Fimmel and the character, and Athelstan because he's just got a chemistry that spins my bottle.)

The show will be fine without Ragnar if they do it right and, so far, I think the signs are all favorable.

ETA  I wanted to add to what I said above:  I also really like the actor who plays Ivar -- in the past second half episodes, he's been just outstanding (pun intended.)  

Also, they have set it up so Ragnar not only has become old (the way Gabriel Byrne's character did -- he faded to black) but, also, it makes logical sense in the plot for Ragnar to wish for his own death and to want to make the arrangements such that his death is worthy of a King.  The "death" part is inevitable, after all.  As for Fimmel?  It may be that he wants to move on or he has other commitments.  He has certainly demonstrated the ability and stamina to be a marketable actor in whatever community he wants to set himself up in.  (I read an interview someone linked to -- thanks! -- with him and I just don't see him happily volunteering to enter the LaLa Land world.  Maybe he will.  That article made me think he'd be unhappy there.  He's quiet and reticent while Hollywood seems to be in-yo-face.)

[jnymph]

On 12/16/2016 at 0:41 AM, Lillybee said:

 

Aslaug's eyes remind me of Melania Trump's eyes. Make of that what you will>

Ha !  

Remember when Lagertha said Aslaug "Was not "FIT" to run Kattegut?"     Immediately I thought of Donald Trump.

I enjoyed this episode, but I still think this show has taken a nosedive since the death of Athelstan.   No character since has provoked Ragnar's moral compass and provided us with an insider's view of the Viking life.  

Really HATE the Astrid storyline & her modern looks.   I actually want that haircut  though. 

They need to age Katheryn Winnick at least somewhat  

Edited December 20, 2016 by jnymph

[Haleth]

Father Time is afraid of Lagertha. 

[Mari]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

Father Time is afraid of Lagertha. 

Well, that would explain how she stays so dewy and youthful, despite the males aging around her.  :)

[BitterApple]

I agree with whomever said they're keeping Lagertha eternally young to make the fanboys happy. Although I will say, I've been to Sweden and the people are freakishly attractive and age really well, so who knows, maybe it really is in the genetics.

[Ohwell]

Granted, I haven't seen that many Scandinavians in person, mainly on tv and in the movies, but they do seem to have very good facial bone structure, and high cheekbones, which I think helps.  Maybe it is in the genetics. 

[Sakura12]

It's probably genetics, I'm Icelandic, Norwegian and Japanese, people still ask me when I'm graduating High School, I then have to tell them I graduated 15 years ago. 

How old is everyone supposed to be? I figured they start having kids young but I can't imagine they live that long with the Viking lifestyle. 

[Mari]

According to the Vikings wikia page on her, she was born in 750, while Bjorn was born in 781.  So, if Bjorn is supposed to be in his mid-thirties, now, Lagertha'd be roughly fiftyish.  

And, wow, @Sakura12.  That's impressive.  I'm possibly a tiny bit jealous.  Just a tiny bit.  

 

Quote

So she had Bjorn when she was 31, right?  So if he's supposed to be in his mid-thirties, then she'd be sixty-ish, and she certainly doesn't look that old

I typoed. Sorry.  

According to the page, she was born in 765, making her 50.  She'd've been about 16 when Bjorn was born.  

http://vikings.wikia.com/wiki/Lagertha

Edited December 21, 2016 by Mari
750 and 765 are not the same thing. Oops.

[Ohwell]

11 minutes ago, Mari said:

According to the Vikings wikia page on her, she was born in 750, while Bjorn was born in 781.  So, if Bjorn is supposed to be in his mid-thirties, now, Lagertha'd be roughly fiftyish.  

So she had Bjorn when she was 31, right?  So if he's supposed to be in his mid-thirties, then she'd be sixty-ish, and she certainly doesn't look that old.  

[insubordination]

Quote

I loved--as crazy as it is--I loved the "banter" between Ivar and Ragnar. He seems to like him more than his other kids.  Ivar is deadly, and psychopathic--and then he's almost like a kid, so happy his dad likes him that it tugs at my heart. Then he kills someone, and that thought abates. They play well off each other--these two, Ivar and Ragnar. 

I kept thinking 'the family that slays together, stays together'. The two have great chemistry and injected some comedy. I could have done without the female ouchy stabbing, but that's Ivar's character and it was set up that way.  A lot of the time I shrug at the violence 'cos Vikings.

Glad they got the casting right with Ivar. This show is hit and miss with casting.  I like the Bjorn actor, but I don't think that character could carry the show if Fimmel were to be written out - not enough charisma.  I like Ragnar post-time jump.  I didn't like addict Ragnar.

Lagertha was playing a slow game, wasn't she?  She did that with Earl Pretty too I guess.  Nice 'n' slow.

Was great to have Rollo back.

Floki is far less annoying post-time jump. I am enjoying him.  I wasn't sure what to think about Rollo's kid poking his tongue out at Flocki. The latter seemed to admire it. The kid is half-Viking after all.

Actually, most of the cast seemed to have a scene in this ep. It was nice to check-in with everyone - even though I don't like 'em all.

Am looking forward to some Egbert/Ragnar scenes.

I also want everyone to underestimate Ivar the cripple. His Daddy's just given him the permission he needs to be absolutely ruthless.

As far as the 'Vietnam' scene(I was reminded of that too), they probably just wanted a distinct image, so we'd remember it was Aslaug's premonition (though they don't usually treat the viewer like that).

I found the editing/CGI a bit sloppy this ep. I don't really mind stuff like that, but I noticed it.

So good to have a show back that I actually want to watch. I'm running out of options.