S12.E08: Lotus

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

Implied, but I can't figure out how it might have actually worked.  Even if they did have physical bodies, they were sharing Sam's body--only one body.  So you can call it mind-rape, but Luci would have been still technically a virgin.  

Sam didn't consent to being victimized sexually in his mind. Remember when Lucifer said Michael was sitting in the corner masturbating? I can make a case that Lucifer made Sam masturbate as a form of sexual abuse. I'm not being funny. It's no different than the drugs and spellworks Lady FuckOffandDie used to cause Sam to have a mental sexual experience with her. I think it's also possible for her to have made him have a physical response to her machinations. That would be sexual abuse. 

What really is pissing me off is that Lucifer has had more of a storyline that anyone thus far.  I don't give a shit about Lucifer's virginity. I don't want it to be a cute thing or a funny thing or a thing at all. Why is Lucifer's virginity even a thing that matters to this show? Oh YEAH because they needed a stupid frakking plot line with a nephelim.  And they never give a shit about consent and they don't treat it seriously.

[AwesomO4000]

30 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Except Sam's body was removed from the cage very shortly after he got there.  So whatever Luci did...it wasn't physical.  

But souls get a hell body. We saw that with Dean whose real body was buried, but his hell body was seen hooked and chained. So even if Sam's real body wasn't there, he had a hell body. Otherwise torture wouldn't work in hell. And we saw Sam's memories of hell, and they included a Sam "body" being tortured.

34 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm thinking this is BL's way of trying to make it seem like Lucifer didn't sexually assault Sam which goes completely contrary to every damn thing we've been told and has been implied both textually and subtextually. Fuck the show for that. Seriously.

That would piss me off. They've messed up enough canon. And if Sam's Hallucifer was representative of actual Lucifer, the sexual assault was more than a little implied. "The rapier wit. The wittier rape." isn't very subtle.

So I'd buy the in a meatsuit explanation maybe - though I can think of a (sick) way that could've happened in hell as well (I won't go there) - but not Lucifer himself.

Edited December 9, 2016 by AwesomO4000
Because grammar is your friend and who's and whose are not the same thing.

[ahrtee]

31 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But souls get a hell body. We saw that with Dean who's real body was buried, but his hell body was seen hooked and chained. So even if Sam's real body wasn't there, he had a hell body. Otherwise torture wouldn't work in hell. And we saw Sam's memories of hell, and they included a Sam "body" being tortured.

 

Mostly I remember Alistair saying that he didn't like being in the real world--that reality was "too concrete".  That implied that he could do whatever he wanted in hell because there wasn't anything "real" there--just the mind/soul. and what he could make his victims think/believe/feel.  That doesn't mean it didn't *feel* real, just that the only damage would be to the mind, not a physical form.  And yes, I equate that with Lady Whatsit making Sam fantasize a sexual encounter, except that she was making him think of a pleasant one, not a painful one.  It was still unwanted and against his will.  

Maybe the real issue IMO is that both Sam and Dean would probably be able to accept being broken physically, but Sam not being able to control something in his own mind would seem like a worse violation to him, just like Dean agreeing to torture other souls went against everything he believed himself to be, and broke him.

Edited December 9, 2016 by ahrtee

[Demented Daisy]

I didn't have a problem with the episode until the Plot-Induced Stupidity.  I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop -- for there to be a reason for Sam and Dean to stick around.  Like, they knew the Secret Service was on their tail, so they had to get caught, but Mr. Ketch would be driving the armored vehicle.  (I fully expect these Secret Service guys will interrogate them at whatever black site they're being held and everything the Feds know about Sam and Dean Winchester will come up.  That better happen, anyway.)  Then the credits popped up and I may have said WTF out loud.

Oh, and did they really have to draw inspiration from Twilight and the demon spawn in that series?  

[Demented Daisy]

One more thing -- Rowena needs her own series.  I do love her so.  :-)

[SueB]

The way Kelly was talking, she knew she was pregnant instantaneously.  I'm thinking the spawn is more like Darla and Connor on "Angel" when she was pregnant.  And it won't be denied now that it's come into existence.  

ETA: I don't think they erased the Hell experience.  I think this was Luci's first time in a meat suit and first time it wasn't about torturing someone. But having said all that,sorry I brought it up. 

Edited December 9, 2016 by SueB

[Aeryn13]

Okay, I can take them having obviously no story to tell and the severely reduced screentime of the main characters but the uber-ultra-stupid capture? For real? Rank amateurs would point and laugh at them. And with good reason.

The same goes for Cas being hit with the stupid stick. If you have to make your characters THAT dumb to facilitate plot turns, then your writing sucks. 

And once more with the "BMOL are so super-cool and suave and have all the supernatural answers". Yet they never did a freaking thing to stop any apocalypse. I mean, it`s not like a planetary destruction doesn`t affect them. For God`s sake, dial it back with the Gary Stu-ness here.

Lucifer is still not done and now we get a spawn-of-Lucy story? Whyyyyyy?

On the Dean-o-,meter, well, the episode offered me nothing, not even a good moment so the overall dullness and stupidity of it stood out mercilessly. 

Singer and Dabb as showrunners really, really don`t work. And we had bad showrunners before.  

[sarthaz]

11 hours ago, ae2 said:

I can't begin to express how indifferent I am to Sam and Dean being captured. They could have just... snuck out with Castiel and the woman.

And Luci's not really gone right? He just vaped down the vent? Dean seemed so sure though.

Best part:

Crowley's mom: I'm a witch. He's an Angel.

Crowley: And I'm the King of Hell.

Woman: Oh, God.

Castiel: No, he left.

Either they intentionally got captured, or that's the worst writing the show has even seen, and that's saying a lot considering how many episodes these tools have written.

11 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I have to be honest but, I thought the first 30 minutes was a bit slow. 

I checked the clock.  20 minutes in and literally nothing had happened.  Just backstory that Lucifer was burning through vessels.

[DittyDotDot]

So, no Supernatural this week? Instead some show about the president getting possessed by the Devil? Hmmm, weird...

So many things to call bullshit on, but first: they can "dial back" the warding on the bunker at will. You can't plug huge gaping holes with air, show!

And, Sam's just gonna call the BMoL? What was he going to say, "Please sirs, we need some help"...because that makes sense. 

Too bad they didn't know all they had to do to put Lucifer back in his cage was get a witch and an egg back when Lucifer was actually scary-ish. But, hey, now they have an actual threat with the spawn of Satan, so... .

Oh, and how much you want to bet the gestation on a nephilium is really short, like a month or two at most?

Seriously, don't even have any clue what show I just watched, but it wasn't Supernatural, IMO.

3 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

I didn't have a problem with the episode until the Plot-Induced Stupidity.  I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop -- for there to be a reason for Sam and Dean to stick around.  Like, they knew the Secret Service was on their tail, so they had to get caught, but Mr. Ketch would be driving the armored vehicle.  

That look the Secret Service guy gave Sam made me wonder if it wasn't Crowley? He vamoosed with Rowena rather quickly, so he could've smoked out of his meatsuit and into the other guy. Probably won't save them right away anyway, though, since Sam dissed him earlier and all. 

I don't know, it was a pretty stupid set up...all of it. And, I have to say those were the worst Secret Service agents ever! 

[catrox14]

56 minutes ago, SueB said:

The way Kelly was talking, she knew she was pregnant instantaneously.  I'm thinking the spawn is more like Darla and Connor on "Angel" when she was pregnant.  And it won't be denied now that it's come into existence.  

ETA: I don't think they erased the Hell experience.  I think this was Luci's first time in a meat suit and first time it wasn't about torturing someone. But having said all that,sorry I brought it up. 

You didn't bring it up. The show did. Eventually it would have been discussed and probably brought up by me as I do my 3rd watch. It's might be a controversial issue but it's fair game for discussion since the show invoked it. To me the show continues to make light of consent issues or it refuses to acknowledge there are in fact consent issues. It's an asinine thing for the show to even mention Lucifer's  virginity.

Angels participation in sex in this show is weird. Back when they were introduced it was said they were junkless/asexual/and are beings of celestial intent and sex with humans was forbidden. Yet Gabriel seemed to really enjoy sex when he was romping around as the Trickster. Did his vessel consent to his threesomes?

Anna was a little different because she chose to fall and was basically born into her meatsuit and she had been  living as a human her entire life although she chose to have sex after she realized she was an angel. So I'm not sure how that works for Anna's vessel.

Cas' sexual experience with April was as a human and of dubious consent because he didn't know April was a reaper in a meatsuit.

Seems to me either Jeff's sex drive was more powerful than Lucifer or Lucifer let Jeff drive during sex. It's possible that Jeff decided that being corrupted by Lucifer was more fun and he wanted the power so he shared the sexual experience with Lucifer. Either way Kelly was raped by Lucifer using Jeff's body since we were never shown that she knew he had been possessed by the Devil before they had sex. She could not give informed her consent to sex with Lucifer.

So now Buck Lemming, Singer and Dabb have approved a shitty plot line with Lucifer's nephilim/abomination created from rape that the mother wants to keep. What the actual fuck is this show doing?

Also, there  better be a damn good reason otherwise than complete stupidity, for the boys to have been so easily captured.

Also, if Lucifer's fossilized feather was used to power him back up, why can't they just use Cas' own feathers and a spell to power him back up? The precedent has been set.

[sigmaforce86]

I loved Cas standing there while everyone else dove away from the rocket launcher he just watched it go past him.   Not sure if he didn't know what it was or knew it wouldn't hurt him; either way it was still funny.  And the throw away lines from Crowley - Sam and his flannel, calling Cas "feathers".   The rest not so much - so in one episode they manage to kill demon possessed secret service but the missing men and blown up vehicle raise no alarm and the Prez is still allowed to meet with his girlfriend in an unsecured motel.  The only reason I can see for the boys getting caught is they wanted to be - there are 100 ways they could have gotten everyone out of that room without being chased or seen so either it was on purpose or the writers are incredible dumb (and maybe think we are too) - hoping for "on purpose" for what better be a good reason.

[sarthaz]

I've been eclipsed by sadness today, and it's due to the realization that our beloved show is now this.  It's really depressing.  I wanted to turn to TNT for solace, but they're in the middle of the Book of the Damned arc, and that won't help much.  Logic says there's no way a show like this could sustain for 12 years, but I still wasn't prepared for ... this.

[goldy]

I read spoilers so I knew this was going to be a bad one, and it was. Not as bad as I expected and not as bad as last week but still bad.

The plot was incredibly stupid and unbelievable and I think the actors felt it too because every single one of them felt so flat to me, like they were just reading lines with no emotions. I don't really blame them though, if I had to act to that script I would probably not feeling up to it either. 

I felt there was not enough meaningful screen time on Sam and Dean and like someone up the thread said; it didn't feel like I was watching Supernatural, it felt like I was watching a different show with Sam and Dean being secondary characters in it.

Still bored with Crowley and Rowena. I feel like they're not even fulfilling their purpose of being "the bad guys" anymore. Just give them up and bring on  Mr. Ketch as the bad guy instead, he was one of the only entertaining things about this episode.

I'm glad they're starting to build up the BMoL storyline, I feel like its going to be a good one (though, anything would be better than the Lucifer storyline at this point) .

I thought the cliffhanger was actually pretty good. I know that nothing would really happen to Sam and Dean but it would be interesting to see them getting out of this mess. Plus, Dean looked all tortured and broody in that promo clip (I love this look on him, lol) its probably going to be hell for him to be locked up in that tiny cell for six weeks.  

Edited December 9, 2016 by goldy

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Grr...PTV forum downtime ate my post!  [sigh] such is life.  From what I remember that I wrote:

I like it!  I thought overall, it was a fun ep.  It's just really nice not to have the boys all angsty and angry with each other constantly.  Bullet points to help organize my scattered thoughts (not that it really helps...)

• Not sure what to think about Mr. Ketch.  He's different than I thought he would be.  I was surprised HMSS knew about angels.  Maybe that's silly of me, but with their attitude about anything supernatural and the fact how they 'take care of the problem' on their tiny little island, I would have thought that angels would pretty much stay away.  He did have some cool toys though.
• Got a chuckle out of Dean's question about the grenade launcher and Sam holding up his hand.  :)
• This might be crazy - and a little twisted - but I really liked the mother/son dynamic between Roweena and Crowley this ep.  Their relationship is so deliciously warped, that it's kind of fun.  Lol!  (I promise I do not have any urges to set fires or harm small animals.)
• Crowley did have some good lines this ep.  I particularly liked "I can't get you without the flannel.  And yet I persist."  to Sam.  hee hee.
• Felt sorry for what-her-name (honestly, I cannot remember her name) with the baby.  That's a tough one.  And for one short, brief, flicker of a moment, I might have started to feel a pang of sympathy for Lucifer when he was in bed with her and she was talking about him being a father.  What the hell has this show done to me?!  Who knows?  It might actually do him good.  Although, he'd have to be a father within the confines of Chuck's creation, so not sure how much he'd like that and how well he would adapt to it.  If Jesse was already the anti-christ, what would this kid be?  Assuming the nephilim story line plays out.  It might not.  
• I thought the Scooby gang all worked well together - and it's been kind of fun to have them all on the same side, even without Chuck around.
• Why did Sam and Dean stay behind in the motel room with the pres while they sent Cass and the mistress lady out?  I thought that was pretty stupid.  They knew the SS was waiting outside.  What did they think was going to happen?  Hey!  At least it's not just Sam chained up to a tiny chair this time.  heh.  Dean looked like he was barely perched on that tiny bench.  
• I also don't understand the jubilation about thinking they trapped Lucifer in the golden goose egg thingie.  Looked to me like he went down the drain.  Er...vent shaft.  (Heh.   Lucifer got the shaft...)

Okay, crossing my fingers and hitting submit reply and hoping it works this time!

[goldy]

37 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 

• I also don't understand the jubilation about thinking they trapped Lucifer in the golden goose egg thingie.  Looked to me like he went down the drain.  Er...vent shaft.  (Heh.   Lucifer got the shaft...)

 

. I thought that the egg forced Lucifer's essence out of the meat-suit and then Rowena's spell banished him to the cage. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

16 hours ago, Pete Martell said:

One of the problems with this many seasons and so many stories where viewers have to fill in the blanks for actions and reactions is that it makes it much harder work to figure out characterization. I don't envy a new writer who has to figure out Sam, for instance. 

And then there's the fact that no three people can agree on any characterization.  (What I mean to say is that everyone interprets at least part of each character differently.)

16 hours ago, ahrtee said:

(As an aside:  I didn't see what happened to the egg when they were captured.  Wasn't Rowena supposed to use it to put  Luci back in the cage?  Because I thought the egg was just to exorcise his "essence," not put it in the cage by itself.)   

I thought Cass was carrying it at the end, wrapped up in a piece of cloth.  So, if the egg didn't contain Lucifer, why would Cass need to take off with it?

15 hours ago, SueB said:

- I understand the dubcon situation and why people were grossed out but for the President, I don't feel bad. The President and Kelly were in a mutual relationship and he consented to letting Lucifer use his body. OTOH, I DO feel bad for Kelly. Clearly she would have never slept with Satan nor intentionally bore his spawn.  But (and here's the confession part), Lucifer as a virgin was a little funny to me.  It just sort of "worked" for me.'

• I'm not sure Jeff consented to letting Lucifer use his body.  I got the feeling he didn't know it was actually Satan.  At least beforehand.  
• Are we to think that somehow Lucifer overrode Kelly's birthcontrol?  I doubt they were only using condoms as she seemed pretty surprised on the phone with her friend to find out she was pregnant, and if for some reason they'd skipped the protection, she'd know about that.  Or..and this is kind of icky...Lucifer tampered with them?  

14 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Except Sam's body was removed from the cage very shortly after he got there.  So whatever Luci did...it wasn't physical.    

Implied, but I can't figure out how it might have actually worked.  Even if they did have physical bodies in the cage, they were sharing Sam's body--only one body.  So you can call it mind-rape, but Luci would still have been technically a virgin.  

I really don't want to like your post (just because of the subject matter) but I do agree with you.  However Sam and Dean were tortured in Hell, it wasn't physically as we know it.  I think it's on another plane of existence (and that's about as well as I can explain this nebulous idea in my head), and probably much worse than if it was strictly physical torture. 

7 minutes ago, goldy said:

. I thought that the egg forced Lucifer's essence out of the meat-suit and then Rowena's spell banished him to the cage. 

I thought that was the purpose of the egg also.  But it confused me when they were handling it so delicately afterward.  

[FlickChick]

I thought this episode was positively horrible. I cannot for the life of me understand how these writers continue to be employed. Lousy characterizations! Irritating convoluted plot-lines. Sam and Dean appearing as guest stars in their own show. What the fuck is going on this season??? Why in God's name would Sam - who was tortured by the BMOL call them???? What the hell was that stupid decision to stay with the president after he was hurt and with Secret Service at the door???? Why, frankly, am I still watching this dreck? I fast-forwarded through much of the Lucifer scenes with the girl - why would I want to watch that??? This show is supposed to be about two hunting brothers, not Luci-in-a-pres with some random woman. And now we have to deal with the Devil's spawn??? God help us all.

We have seven weeks until the return of the series and this was episode eight. Do the J's not want to work any more so they're content to be guest stars? If so, then I think it's time to admit that and wrap it up.  I've watched this show since the beginning and thought I'd be here until the end, but I'm not sure I can hang in there while I watch this show go into the shitter.

[Wynne88]

Quote

 I thought that the egg forced Lucifer's essence out of the meat-suit and then Rowena's spell banished him to the cage. 

That's what the BMOL said it would do.  I sincerely hope that Sam and Dean didn't just take Mr. Ketch at his word on that, but I expect they did.  My guess is that it does something else, and Sam and Dean just got played.

[MysteryGuest]

Just some random thoughts after reading through this thread...

Even if I can accept the fact that Sam and Dean stayed behind with the President because duh...he's the President and they were worried about him (I really don't buy this and I still think it was completely stupid of them to stay, but I'm trying here...), it doesn't explain why the secret service guys would automatically assume the boys had attempted to assassinate him.  Unless they're covering their own assess for allowing him to be in that hotel without their protection, it just makes no sense.  I'm sure they might have been taken in for questioning, but that would be all.  The President was unconscious, but unharmed, so there would be no evidence of foul play.  And he could attest to the fact that they didn't harm him. 

There's just been way too much Lucifer this season, and we're only a third of the way through.  That's a big issue for me, since I'm sick of him, but it really isn't his show, is it?  As others have pointed out, why are Jensen and Jared guest starring on their own series?  I know they've cut back their hours a bit, but this is a bit ridiculous.  TPTB have to know that we watch the show for them, right?  And while I'm on that topic, I will get shallow for just a minute and state that if I have to watch sex scenes or endless shirtless scenes of characters on this show, then it needs to be Dean or Sam.  I have no interest in watching strangers.

Aeryn13, you make a very good point about the BMOL.  If they're so far superior to American hunters then why did they just sit back and wait for the world to implode...numerous times, without intervening.  I call bullshit on that storyline.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Seriously, don't even have any clue what show I just watched, but it wasn't Supernatural, IMO.

That look the Secret Service guy gave Sam made me wonder if it wasn't Crowley? He vamoosed with Rowena rather quickly, so he could've smoked out of his meatsuit and into the other guy. Probably won't save them right away anyway, though, since Sam dissed him earlier and all.  

There were a few things in this one that got me speculating.

First, I'm beginning to wonder if Jared and Jensen have negotiated for less screen time and that is why its starting to feel like there are more episodes that focus on the guests and supporting actors.

Next, there have been a couple episodes, like this one, that just don't even feel like Supernatural from the writing to the directing.  Its more than that Dean and Sam being in a supporting role.  Its like even the cinematography is different.  It has to be deliberate.   And it feels like its more than just new behind the scenes people coming on.  It feels like a more deliberate attempt to change the show.  Almost like a transition to find another way to create an over-arching way to propel the story.  Kind of like 'well God split, now what will motivate Sam and Dean to hunt things.'

That leads me to Secret Service guy.  I get that the feeling that he knows about Hunters and the MOL.  I'm sort of suspicious that they are going down the path of Sam and Dean being released from the prison on the condition that they hunt supernatural creatures for the government.

[Ria]

Explain again to me why it's a good idea to have Crowley, Rowena and the BMOL all more powerful and smarter than Sam, Dean and Cas. Because I got nothing. 

They've done everything imaginable to diminish Cas over the years so the brothers could not rely on his powers and knowledge to always save the day. But they've increased the powers of Crowley and Rowena to ridiculous proportions in his place. Because the brothers relying on evil is better. 

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I get that the feeling that he knows about Hunters and the MOL.  I'm sort of suspicious that they are going down the path of Sam and Dean being released from the prison on the condition that they hunt supernatural creatures for the government.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the spinoff becomes something like Supernatural: Men of Letters.

[MysteryGuest]

I know that Sam and Dean are only human, and have no super powers, but it's still supposed to be a show about them, and they are supposed to be legendary hunters...at least I thought they were.  But this show goes out of it's way to portray them as inept in just about every episode.  I get that they can't always win, and they need to lose some for dramatic effect, but there are better ways to do that than to portray them as just stupid or careless.

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Even if I can accept the fact that Sam and Dean stayed behind with the President because duh...he's the President and they were worried about him (I really don't buy this and I still think it was completely stupid of them to stay, but I'm trying here...), it doesn't explain why the secret service guys would automatically assume the boys had attempted to assassinate him.  

I have no idea why Sam and Dean didn't skedaddle with everyone else, but I think the reason they automatically assumed they tried to assassinate the president was because earlier Lucifer told the head Secret Service guy he had evidence Sam and Dean were going to try and assassinate him. The whole plotting of this episode was unnecessarily overly complicated--and downright stupid--if you ask me.

28 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Next, there have been a couple episodes, like this one, that just don't even feel like Supernatural from the writing to the directing.  Its more than that Dean and Sam being in a supporting role.  Its like even the cinematography is different. 

The first two or three episodes of the season felt and looked more like Supernatural to me than the show has felt and looked for a couple years now. But, these last two, definitely look brighter and more--for a lack of a better term--typical-TV than I usually ascribe to this show. Although, with this episode, it might have been a conscious choice since it was a sort of love story. 

I don't know, I'm tired. Maybe my thoughts will be less murky in the morning.

[MysteryGuest]

13 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Although, with this episode, it might have been a conscious choice since it was a sort of love story. 

Chuck help us...a Lucifer love story.  We can't allow Sam or Dean to ever have a decent relationship, but Lucifer can find true love?  These writers need a stern talking to!

[SueB]

I don't get the feeling J2 are guests in their own show.  Like all B-L eps AND mid and season finales, the story was packed.  I, for one, was thrilled Cas was back with the boys in the bunker. And if they are in the scene, I don't see how that equates to less screen time.  Lucifer got a big plot this time but if he's truly gone then it was warranted.  

As as for the President, he was clearly cooperating before the secret service guy was killed. After that, I don't know.  And once he realized he let something EVIL inhabit his body, no way is he going to come clean about it.  'Just let those boys go, they saved me from my stupid decision to let SATAN take over the presidency.'  Not going to happen.  And the Secret Service really screwed the pooch on this. First, they agreed to assassinate to civilians on the say-so of the President.  Oh no you don't.  Even if they are prepared to die for their President, they still swear an oath to the Constitution.  Letting him have a nooner with his known squeeze in a no-tell motel if far less serious of a mistake.  

So, I'm going to interpret the weird look from the Secret service dude is because Sam and Dean are an unfortunate mess and he's wondering how to make the mess go away.  Much depends on how the President plays this. I'm presuming that he will want it hush hush but he won't be prepared to kill them (like Lucifer was). 

Edited December 10, 2016 by SueB

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, SueB said:

'Just let those boys go, they saved me from my stupid decision to let SATAN take over the presidency.'  

But didn't Cas wipe President Jeff's and the Secret Service's guy's memories? No one should have remembered what happened. The only people that know what happened are Mr. Ketch, Sam, Dean, Cas, Crowley, Rowena and Kelly.

[DittyDotDot]

I don't think Cass wiped any of their minds. Mr. Ketch told him to, but it didn't look like he was so keen on being ordered around. Cass did say the president won't remember what happened...how convenient to make sure there's no one who can help them get out of this pickle. 

[MysteryGuest]

Cas did wipe the secret service guy's memory, or at least he told him that no one was in the room, even though he was looking right at Cas.  That's why he walked back to the car and told the President he could go in.  I'm sure it will all be explained in 7 weeks when the show comes back on.  I hate hiatuses!  By then, maybe I'll have missed the show so much, I'll forget how disappointed I've been with recent episodes.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think Cass wiped any of their minds. Mr. Ketch told him to, but it didn't look like he was so keen on being ordered around. Cass did say the president won't remember what happened...how convenient to make sure there's no one who can help them get out of this pickle. 

Why would Cas say Prez Jeff wouldn't remember any of it, unless he was going to wipe his memory? Unless it's implying that Cas lied to the boys which why on Earth would he do that?

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I really don't want to like your post (just because of the subject matter) but I do agree with you.  However Sam and Dean were tortured in Hell, it wasn't physically as we know it.  I think it's on another plane of existence (and that's about as well as I can explain this nebulous idea in my head), and probably much worse than if it was strictly physical torture. 

Okay, hopefully this is my last post on this subject. I agree that the subject matter is somewhat nebulous, because it's never been addressed specifically, but I have one or two more examples to support my "other dimension body" fanwank / explanation. Example 1) Dean in purgatory. Arguably that was actual Dean in purgatory, but that was not Benny's mortal "body" in purgatory... yet Benny and Dean interact with each other on a physical level in purgatory as far as I remember. And Dean interacts physically with the other monsters who show up in purgatory and kills them physically. If those monsters, including Benny, are on another plane of existence with no real physical body of any kind, Dean shouldn't be able to interact with any of them. He wouldn't have been in any danger of being harmed, or at least not by teeth or claws or the like. But we know that that wasn't the case, since we saw Dean get banged up by purgatory's monsters. Example 2) Sam and Dean have "bodies" in heaven. They interact with other souls' bodies - Dean kisses Pamela the psychic, for example. And they are physically "harmed" by Zachariah.

Of course the logistics explanation is that the show couldn't very easily show / have balls of light, puffs of smoke, etc. interacting with each other, but the end result of that is something has to be interacting in these instances, so my theory / fanwank is that it's a "body" they are given for that dimension, so that they continue to "live" in that dimension - so that the soul is content / not discombobulated / not confused / whatever - so that the soul can more easily be used as a stable, renewable energy source.

So I can accept that a host physical body on earth can feel different, be more intense, etc. But based on what I've seen, beings in other dimensions do seem to get some sort of physical form to interact with each other in that other dimension. That form or "body" may not have the same characteristics as an earthly body or have to follow the same rules, but it does seem to be able to interact with even an earthly body when they come into contact with each other.

So I can buy that this was technically a potentially new experience for Lucifer, but I also agree with @catrox14 that there was little reason for the episode writers to explain that "new experience" in the way that they did. It might've even been more impactful if they had chosen different phrasing - say emphasizing a feeling of fitting or rightness or maybe even of purpose that he'd never felt before - rather than revisiting an old "joke" that was funnier and more sensical (to me, anyway) coming from Dean than a millennial old being like Lucifer. That being said, for me there are still problems even with that, because... well see below.

13 hours ago, SueB said:

ETA: I don't think they erased the Hell experience.  I think this was Luci's first time in a meat suit and first time it wasn't about torturing someone. But having said all that,sorry I brought it up. 

Not your fault at all, SueB, and no need to be sorry. I think your reaction is exactly what the writers were going for, here. I, however, am too annoyed by writers* - and these two especially - forgetting and or twisting the canon to what they want. If the writers want me to see Lucifer as sympathetic here, okay, I guess, but please also don't forget that this character just recently burned through a bunch of host bodies with no remorse, killed people for fun just because they insulted him, and in the past killed 1000 plus men, women, and children just to do a spell. There's got to be a way to maybe mesh those two things so it won't be so jarring? Or at least the writers should understand that some of us viewers might be a bit confused by "sentimental" Lucifer. Over 100 years with Sam didn't seem to soften Lucifer up at all, so I think it's reasonable that some might question that this relationship with this woman - even with the feeling of connection and the novelty of "creating" something - would somehow have Lucifer "see the light" all of  sudden.

I guess what I mean is, if they did want us to see this, for me they kind of rushed the story a bit. However, it might also be that given Lucifer's nature, just like his supposed reconciliation with Chuck/God/Dad, he might change his mind again about his experience pretty quickly, and it'll instead be all about the power he can gain from his offspring being born.

Ironically I like the character of Lucifer - but as a villain. As a character I love to hate. I understand Lucifer, his jealousy and daddy issues, his need to lash out. And for me, this "sensitive" Lucifer maybe doesn't compute. Lucifer's no Crowley. I don't want him conflicted and complex. To semi-quote Buffy "I like my evil (in this case Lucifer) like I like my men - evil. You know, straight up, black hat, tie you to the train tracks, soon my electro-ray will destroy Metropolis bad." In other words, I personally don't want to feel sorry for or sentimental towards Lucifer, so this episode annoyed me a bit in that regard.

However, I can entirely see what you saw, SueB, and that's also entirely valid. Just not my personal preference in regards to Lucifer.

*It doesn't help that one of my other shows is also hitting me over the head with a horrible, horrible character (ironically played by Jeffrey Dean Morgan) - who murders and tortures people apparently for fun - but who they apparently also want me to see as oh so cool and awesome - um, ugh, no - so I was a bit over sensitive to this kind of thing before coming into this episode.

Edited December 10, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[DittyDotDot]

20 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Cas did wipe the secret service guy's memory, or at least he told him that no one was in the room, even though he was looking right at Cas.  That's why he walked back to the car and told the President he could go in.  

I don' think Cass wiped the guy's memory, just put a suggestion in his head that made him believe no one was in the room. But, whatever Cass did to him was temporary. The guy was shown zoned out in the car, and then shaking his head to "wake up."  

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why would Cas say Prez Jeff wouldn't remember any of it, unless he was going to wipe his memory? Unless it's implying that Cas lied to the boys which why on Earth would he do that?

What I recall was Cass said the president was still alive and would be fine, but he wouldn't remember the experience. I thought he was saying the president's amnesia was natural, not anything Cass did to him. I figured it was due to the use of the magic egg...I don't know.

Edited December 10, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

So I took one for the team and rewatched this crap fest.

Cas did touch President Jeff's head and said he wouldn't remember anything. So I'm going with Cas wiped his memory.  Thus there was quite literally no reason for Sam and Dean to stay behind when Prez Jeff wouldn't remember them at all or why they were there. 

And I guess anyone can look at the bright light of an archangel's grace now without it burning out their eyes?  Crowley and Rowena shielded their eyes but Cas, Sam and Dean looked right into it. Or is that something only Sam and Dean can do now? Which would be interesting if the show bothered to do anything with explaining how that can be the case.

Lucifer's grace went into the vent for sure. So I really don't think he went back to Hell. Demons just burn right through the floor when they are sent back to Hell. 

ETA: as if Kelly's phone was not being  monitored by the Secret Service especially when Continuum!Secret Service!Agent thinks the President is the target of an assassination attempt.  So dumb.

Edited December 10, 2016 by catrox14

[mertensia]

I enjoyed the episode. I loved the creepiness of the crosses turning upside down as the possessed archbishop walked past. I think Lucifer  as a whole has run its course, though.

I loved that once again the BMoL show that they are off. Irradiating vampires so they die in horrible pain is just wrong. So is firing that grenade launcher without caring who gets hurt.

It is well past time the Feds caught the boys though. Though, morons! You don't transport them together. You transport them separately.

I also think Mr Ketch was the cab driver.

[Goldmoon]

Someone upthread said "I don't envy a new writer who has to figure out Sam, for instance. "  I take issue with this.  How many of us here can write and have already figured out Sam?  Why are they fishing for writers from a well of non-fans?  I get that professional writers show up on their radar but do you think that there wasn't a single professional writer available who understands SPN?  If that is the case, they need to hire me, or other ameteurs. 

Dean looked very hot.  I enjoy Crowley working so cooperatively with Cas and the boys.  That is new, but kind of takes Crowley's edge off. 

If the boys don't want to be on screen so much, they ought to end it.  If the scripts are always this terrible, they ought to end it.

This show, much as I loved it when it was about the brothers hunting monsters, needs to end.

[MysteryGuest]

Maybe it's time they look at shorter seasons.  I hate to say it, and I've been opposed to it until now, but if Jared and Jensen want more time off for family, etc., then maybe shortening the season is the answer.  Theoretically, we'd get a better story arc (wouldn't need so many filler episodes), and the stories could revolve around Sam and Dean.  It's them we tune in for, with a side of Cas and Crowley.  I'd sign up for this in a heartbeat at this point.

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, Goldmoon said:

Someone upthread said "I don't envy a new writer who has to figure out Sam, for instance. "  I take issue with this.  How many of us here can write and have already figured out Sam?  Why are they fishing for writers from a well of non-fans?  I get that professional writers show up on their radar but do you think that there wasn't a single professional writer available who understands SPN?  If that is the case, they need to hire me, or other ameteurs. 

I think the comment was more about how inconsistent Sam--and pretty much everyone--has been written over the years. Your take on Sam would probably be very different than mine or most other fans and that seems to be the case with the writers too. But, IMO, the issue isn't really a writer problem as much as a showrunner problem. The person at the helm should have a clear vision of all the characters and keep all the writers on the same course, IMO. 

TBH, I'd rather they hire good writers, not necessarily fans.

[SueB]

I think Dabb has a clear vision of what he's doing. He wanted Lucifer as a threat this season but we are years past Apocalypse.  So, if Lucifer could inhabit anyone on the planet and have power -- it's the President of the US.

This episode was Lucifer-centric. It had a non-compelling guest star (whoever he was, he wasn't Mark Pelligrino). And Lucifer's story was a third of the episode.  I'm not sure why it's more complicated than that.  

[MysteryGuest]

I agree that the show runners need to be manning this ship.  You have a bunch of new writers, so someone has to be in charge of quality control.  I get the feeling that they take their audience for granted a bit, as the SPN Family has taken on a life of it's own.  But things can devolve pretty quickly, and once you lose an audience, it's much harder to get them to come back.  

[Boopsahoy]

15 hours ago, mertensia said:

I also think Mr Ketch was the cab driver.

I said that as I was watching-but they never showed the driver. I think when we come back from break that's what they will show. Anyone know how Kelly knew Castiels phone number when she called him from the cab?

[VirileManifoDivine]

On 2016-12-08 at 6:13 PM, catrox14 said:

So, I guess this episode must have taken place in what 2017, because in s10 Dean referenced Obama as the sitting president. What happened to Obama?
Dammit, Barry!

LOL! As in Allen? Figures. This horrible season is probably a result of Flashpoint.

[Goldmoon]

Dot, I do know what you are saying about Sam's characterization.  I mean it would help if the writers watch the first eleven seasons!

[VirileManifoDivine]

On 2016-12-09 at 6:36 AM, sarthaz said:

I've been eclipsed by sadness today, and it's due to the realization that our beloved show is now this.  It's really depressing.  I wanted to turn to TNT for solace, but they're in the middle of the Book of the Damned arc, and that won't help much.  Logic says there's no way a show like this could sustain for 12 years, but I still wasn't prepared for ... this.

I'm right there with you. I went from anger to disappointment and now sadness. I was one who wanted the show to go on as long as the Js wanted but if they're barely going to be in it...

[catrox14]

You know. I've been thinking about putting Lucifer's "essence" (why isn't just called grace) back in the Cage. What is the point of doing that when the Cage was actually damaged when the Darkness was released which is how Lucifer reached out to Sam? Did the Cage just get magically repaired at some point and I missed it? Did Sam question this at all or did I miss him doing so?

The plan makes no sense if the Cage is still in disrepair because Lucifer can still reach out and bother people like he did with Sam. He can still cause chaos. 

Edited December 11, 2016 by catrox14

[7kstar]

I guess for me, since I've seen these two write so much worst...I'm not bothered that much in the long run YET.  I think they wanted to wrap up Lucifer instead of just allowing him to be a plot hole of what happened to him, he's still running around lose.  Plus they wanted to move in the direction of Sam and Dean locked up

Dean and Sam may have the only solution we know of is the cage.  How else can the mere mortals take care of him?

Spoiler

and have Mary do something to help them.  Just what I got from the preview...no other spoilers.

I don't remember how many times we have talked about hating something that honestly I don't think they put that much energy into.  I think they just wanted Lucifer to get excited about creating something to do something better or one up dear old dad.  He's lost it and the idea wasn't his.  It came from hearing a human talk about why she wanted a child and dreams she had.  That's all they thought about nothing more.  I think they really are that simple in their ideas and not really thinking about the vessel  and all the things that we as fans explore or wonder.  I could be wrong...

Now if they do something interesting with the boys being locked up the new fans will be excited about it as they aren't sick to death of the rinse and repeat.  There is something possible and I agree you don't have to watch more than the last twenty minutes.  I think I was more excited when I watched that first and left me with this looks interesting.  However starting from the beginning took that excitement away.

Teaching kids, they don't think so deep about shows and only remember the high points.  I remember many old movies I loved I did the same thing Disney's Jungle book comes to mind.  The spots I loved I still loved as an adult and the rest I just went wow it's really slow.

This show has always had issues from season 1 through 12.  So on that front, nothing's new.  :)

[MysteryGuest]

Well, unless I missed something, I think Lucifer's "end" was pretty ambiguous...again.  We can't say for sure he's actually in the cage, or if the cage has been repaired enough keep him from causing more trouble, as Catrox pointed out.  But since Lucifer II is now in the making, I'm sure we haven't seen the last of the proud papa.    And that's a big negative for me.  I wanted the show to move beyond Lucifer, but it seems that they can't bring themselves to do so.  

In the meantime, thanks to the BMOL and their super duper monster killing machines, they've made what used to keep this show interesting, obsolete.  I was really hoping for some good old-fashioned monster hunts this season, but I don't think we're going to get them.  It's passe, apparently.

Edited December 11, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

In the meantime, thanks to the BMOL and their super duper monster killing machines, they've made what used to keep this show interesting, obsolete.  I was really hoping for some good old-fashioned monster hunts this season, but I don't think we're going to get them.  It's passe, apparently.

Only if their super duper monster killing machines actually work on American monsters.  They might not.  Don't know if the show will go there though.  One lesson I remember from history is that the English troops, with their oh-so-correct formations and rank and file did not fare so well against American guerrilla fighting tactics. 

ETA: look up the True story of Francis Marion, aka "The Swamp Fox" and The Battle of New Orleans

Edited December 11, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
We took a little bacon and we took a little beans...

[bethy]

One thing that just struck me today is the difference between my reaction at the end of this episode - boys arrested by the Feds for the attempted assassination of the President - and my reaction at the end of Nightshifter - boys on the run from the Feds.

After Nightshifter, I actually had a knot in my stomach about the ramifications for the Winchesters and their now being on the radar for a bank robbery and the death of the people in the bank. I was concerned for the characters; I was concerned about what this new attention by the Feds would mean on how the story would play out.

After this episode, I was just, *shrug* and turned of the TV. And I think that's for a couple of reasons: First, they've gone so "big" that the consequences have, in a sense, become negligible, really. I mean, Dean and Sam are the heros of the show so what I know as a viewer is that, ultimately, even though they've been arrested for basically treason, Dean and Sam will escape from prison and go back to what they have been doing. There's just no tension with this particular storyline for me. And second, I honestly don't care that much about Lucifer and whatever it is he's up to. I'm not sure how they've managed to make a plot about the devil loosed on the world so meaningless and with so few real stakes. But they've done it. For me, anyway.

[Macbeth]

On 12/8/2016 at 10:22 PM, catrox14 said:

If Cas can do the Jedi mind trick why didn't he do it before now???

I fucking hate these writers

It would make sense if they weren't dumbasses to get captured. So FUCKING STUPID.

Cas is a problematic character for the show. He is very popular and I love Misha - but given both his and Crowley's powers - half the shit that goes down on this show should never have happened.

So much potential for having Lucifer occupy the President's body and it all goes to crap with the writers.  They have 23 episodes to fill and  this story line is only 1 episode??  Although, given that between S5 and S12 Lucifer had had a lobotomy along the way, it's probably for the best.

And this show is fooling around with the subject of abortion??  Step away from the bomb writers you have no skill in handling this at all.

These writers have a hard time writing female characters - abortion is way above their pay grade.

[MysteryGuest]

Well, they tried to side-step the abortion issue by stating that the "baby" wasn't human.  But even so, why even go there?  Do they really think people are clamoring for more Lucifer?  

I've been watching some old episodes today, and I think the issue really is the screen time of Jensen and Jared.  In the earlier seasons, at least one of them was pretty much in every scene.  In the last few years, that's changed dramatically, and it shows.  When they're not on the screen, the show is boring.  The secondary characters just aren't interesting enough to make up for the fact that Sam and Dean are missing.  I enjoy Cas, Crowley and even Rowena, but I want them interacting with Sam and Dean.  When they focus on them alone for more than just a few scenes, it's just not compelling enough to keep me interested.